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Some customers were just breaking even with cash-for-clunkers or even worse

While many of the domestic automakers offered steep price cuts on top of "Cash for Clunkers", many buyers chose to purchase vehicles from foreign manufacturers instead.  Leading the pack was Toyota, whose Corolla was the leading vehicle purchased under the program by the first week of August.  Even recently retired Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) traded in his 1991 Chevrolet Suburban for a brand-new Toyota Prius, joking, "You don't see a lot of Republicans driving a Prius." 

Now it appears that a handful of Toyota dealers raised their prices to offset the government rebate and cash in on the high demand for its vehicles.

DailyTech has an exclusive inside look at some Toyota dealers' so-called "market value adjustments" (MVAs) on popular vehicles such as the 2010 third-generation Prius hybrid.  With the typical sticker price of the Prius coming it at around $26,000, many dealers across the country have been charging $3,000 to $10,000 markups, more than offsetting the "Cash for Clunkers" rebate of $3,000 to $4,500 in some cases.

On the forum PriusChat, one customer reports, "We live in Lake Placid Fl. and could not deal with the dealer here. One charge they wanted was a market adjustment for this area of $3999.99 also dealer fees of $695.00."

A number of others on the same site share similar stories of their own.  States one buyer, "A certain dealer in NJ that I am not at liberty to mention charges 6500 over sticker and calls it fair market value adjustment. luckily I found another one close by with better morals. They are charging sticker price and not a penny more."

Speaking with a trusted source who had recently been shopping for a Prius, DailyTech was able to confirm one such dealer that was spiking prices.  Located in the heart of the U.S. auto industry, Suburban Toyota of Troy, Michigan was charging more than a $2,000 markup on a Prius it had in store. 

States our source, "Suburban Toyota in Troy was one of the ones that wanted a $2,000 additional fee over the MSRP, to the best of my recollection. The other places weren't named, but only referred to by a salesman who was offended by the other dealerships charging what he said was price gouging. I thought it was like ticket scalping. They know they have a hot item and could probably sell all they have, even for $5,000 additional MSRP. The Prius is a great car but they didn't produce enough, especially ones with the amazing solar roof that keeps your car cool when it's parked in the summer."

Hoping to gain further insight into this, DailyTech posed as an eager buyer and called Suburban Toyota.  The following is our conversation:

DailyTech:  "I've been calling all over trying to find a new 2010 Prius and no dealerships have any in stock.  Do you have any?"
Sales Agent:  "We do... it's been sold to Ford but the sale isn't finalized yet."
DailyTech: "But I heard from another dealer that I might have to pay more than the MSRP on it -- something about MVA or something like that -- is that true?"
Sales Agent:  "Yes"
DailyTech "How much more?"
Sales Agent:  "About $4,000 to $5,000."

The sales agent went on to elaborate that we might be able to buy it if we moved fast.  The agent explained, "When one comes in, typically it's sold before it even gets the chance to hit the lot."

DailyTech then proceeded to contact six other Toyota dealerships in lower Michigan.  None of the other dealers had stock in, but when related a slightly altered version of the story of the MSRP markup by Suburban, they all said that they sold their vehicles at MSRP.  A couple expressed shock or surprise at the development, but at least one commented, "I know who you're talking about."

It appears that most dealers are clean, but based on the feedback DailyTech has picked up on in various Prius forums, there are dealerships in at least several states that are similarly price gouging on the 2010 Prius via MVA's. 

Toyota was contacted by DailyTech and we are awaiting their comment.

Markups such as these are really nothing new, but are typically limited to low-production vehicles or vehicles that have been recently introduced.  The Prius itself has also been the victim of occasional price gouging since its introduction in the U.S.  While it's unknown exactly how many people were willing to pay the MVA's on the Prius, the fact that the elevated MSRP erased or even surpassed the Cash for Clunkers rebate was likely a hard pill to swallow for many buyers.

Update 1: One of the dealerships DailyTech contacted earlier this morning received a vehicle this afternoon and offered it to our "buyer" at MSRP.  This essentially invalidates the argument that no vehicles are available on the local market.



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Boggles my mind.
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 8/25/2009 1:51:22 PM , Rating: 5
While I would never pay over MSRP for ANY vehicle -- I don't care who makes it -- I must wonder what is going through the minds of people who fall for it?

$10,000? $6,000? They're practically blowing away their $4,500 credit.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd rather continue to drive a "clunker" that is likely already paid for than get gouged on a new car and pickup more payments.




RE: Boggles my mind.
By HotdogIT on 8/25/2009 1:54:33 PM , Rating: 5
They want it and don't feel like they're getting cheated.

Or they're blubbering morons.

Either way, they end up with a Prius, and less one junker.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By bighairycamel on 8/25/2009 2:17:22 PM , Rating: 3
A lot of people are just suckers for gimmicks. If they had done their homework they would realize that the Insight is nearly the same thing at a lower price... but I guess these are the same types of people that keep apple in business.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By randomposter on 8/25/2009 3:19:21 PM , Rating: 5
Everything I've read seems to indicate the Insight is inferior to the Prius in just about every way. Jeremy Clarkson referred to it as "biblically terrible."


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Iaiken on 8/25/2009 4:56:32 PM , Rating: 2
Clarkson with regard to the engine noise:

"Really, to get an idea of how awful it is, you'd have to sit a dog on a ham slicer."


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Noya on 8/25/09, Rating: -1
RE: Boggles my mind.
By 67STANG on 8/25/2009 5:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
The best is when Clarkson calls Americans fat. I've even heard him say we've got bad teeth once.... Really? A fat British guy is going to make fun of fat Americans?

Honestly, Top Gear is my favorite show... but every comment he makes like that makes me hate him more.

Then again, most of the antics they do on that show are anti-American. From unfair racing contests (ie- a Lotus road racing a Mustang GT) to biased reviews of our vehicles, it's all quite laughable. Even with all of this, it's still better than Car and Driver and MotorTrend...


RE: Boggles my mind.
By andrinoaa on 8/25/2009 5:16:47 PM , Rating: 1
are you so insecure he may be right, lol? You guys do have runs on the board!


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Totally on 8/25/2009 9:58:10 PM , Rating: 3
he has some valid points though, like pot meet kettle. Sometimes you have to pause and think "Seriously". Isn't it about times you guys got off the 'lets bash the US train'.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By afkrotch on 8/27/2009 12:32:03 AM , Rating: 2
If you're going for gas mileage, that 10+ mpg difference is well...not what I'd consider "nearly" the same thing.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By on 8/27/09, Rating: -1
RE: Boggles my mind.
By mmntech on 8/25/2009 1:56:10 PM , Rating: 5
Agreed. Anybody who pays over sticker is an idiot. Especially for a Prius which is already overpriced as is compared to other cars in its size class, even from the same manufacturer.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Mitch101 on 8/25/2009 2:55:49 PM , Rating: 2
What's the price. The sticker says $26K but I would like to pay $30K.

Their Car Salesman. Not exactly known to be high on the trustworthy/humanitarian scale so this is a no brainier that they would mark things up to people dumb enough to pay for it.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By AlexWade on 8/25/2009 4:09:35 PM , Rating: 5
5 years ago this December, I had my eyes on a beautiful white 350Z roadster. I was in love with that car. Fully loaded, 6 speed manual, rear-wheel drive. I know I could get a more powerful sportscar for less, but I loved the look of the car. Plus, Nissan had a special 1.9% interest rate for this car. The dealer had the 2004 model on his lot. I said I would take it at invoice. After 2 hours, the lowest he would go is $3000 above invoice. So I walked out.

A few days later, they called me back. I had my 350Z at invoice and at 1.9% APR.

What people don't realize is that the most powerful negotiating tactic you have are your feet. Just leave. Wait them out. Desperate buyers are more likely to pay a bad price. The greatest trick car dealers play with you is to get you to think you have little power. The fancy gimmicks are there just to distract you. You have all the power.

You can also go to www.beatthecarsalesman.com. A site so effective, that car dealers threaten him. (http://www.beatthecarsalesman.com/speakout.html)


RE: Boggles my mind.
By nugundam93 on 8/31/2009 10:21:30 PM , Rating: 2
...if only a lot of car buyers were like you alex. very good move there.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By andrinoaa on 8/25/09, Rating: 0
RE: Boggles my mind.
By hybridr6 on 8/25/2009 6:25:34 PM , Rating: 5
"Anybody who pays the sticker price is an idiot."

Fixed. :)

Do people really pay MSRP for vehicles? I've only purchased one new vehicle, but I payed well below MSRP for it. Over 2k less in fact.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By deeznuts on 8/26/2009 2:58:30 PM , Rating: 2
My mother is from Vietnam where you bargain for everything, even buying groceries.

I will never ever buy a car without taking her. They tried to charge her for floormats, and other things on an Accord once, she said take them out. Then, they tried to charge her for pinstripes on the car, and, with a straight face, "Take them off."

I've had her with me every car I've bought, since I was 16 about 6 cars ago lol. I just can't bargain.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By knutjb on 8/25/2009 11:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
Supply, demand, and suckers.

Go right ahead and throw money at a car that isn't all that comfortable to ride in. They're buying it to prove they care more than you do, even if they get ripped off doing so.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By seamonkey79 on 8/26/2009 8:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
Plus, to my observance, buying a Prius means you get to drive like a jerkface at 15-20% higher speeds than other people.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By wolfwood on 8/25/2009 2:07:55 PM , Rating: 2
Agree completely; I refuse to get a car I can't pay cash for. Of course, I'm not one for trying to keep up with the neighbors and have the best car on the block.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By therealnickdanger on 8/25/2009 2:17:08 PM , Rating: 2
I asked the same question when the Charger, C6, Camaro, Challenger, *insert hot new car here* each came out. Seeing those hot new cars command a 10K markup seemed ludicrous to me... but a Prius? WTF

Such is the way of the market. There's a sucker born every minute. So be it.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Lord 666 on 8/25/2009 3:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
Curious if the 2009 Jetta TDI has the same fluxuation in price due to CARS.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By hyvonen on 8/25/2009 10:43:00 PM , Rating: 1
Dumbasses. They should've been buying Pontiac Vibe, getting a toyota at a steeply discounted price.

Supply and demand - sure the CARS will increase the demand, automatically letting car salesmen take their cut. That's life. Quit whining - I'm the one who should be whining, since my 1995 Bonneville wasn't eligible (20mpg my ass)


RE: Boggles my mind.
By SAnderson on 8/25/2009 2:18:08 PM , Rating: 5
I'm not sure what the big deal is here. Its called Supply and Demand and its the foundation of the US economy. People want a product, evidently some people want it enough to pay more than MSRP or are just stupid enough to not look around to find a dealer selling at MSRP. If no one wants it then the cost will be under MSRP. Nothing new here people.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By joemoedee on 8/25/2009 2:39:00 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I'm not sure what the big deal is here. Its called Supply and Demand and its the foundation of the US economy. People want a product, evidently some people want it enough to pay more than MSRP or are just stupid enough to not look around to find a dealer selling at MSRP.


Exactly. MSRP is just that, the suggested retail price. The dealer is free to charge whatever over or under that amount that they wish to.

Clearly people were paying over the MSRP, or else they wouldn't have been selling it for over MSRP.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By GeorgeH on 8/25/2009 3:15:50 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you both. To summarize:

"Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.”

Now it's time to learn some more advanced concepts. Code of Laws might be a good choice, assuming you've already discovered Construction.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By clovell on 8/25/2009 4:25:00 PM , Rating: 5
Supply and Demand is all right and fine in a free market. This is hardly a free market. The CARS program artificially inflated demand here.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By TomZ on 8/25/09, Rating: 0
RE: Boggles my mind.
By Keeir on 8/25/2009 5:59:56 PM , Rating: 3
Errr..

No, I would call that "intended consquences" since the purpose of Stimulus Money is to give it away


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Regs on 8/31/2009 12:56:43 PM , Rating: 2
We lived in a mixed economy for decades because we figured out free market and controlled markets fail without the help of one another. Supply and demand still act as a pricing mechanism.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By arazok on 8/25/2009 2:40:54 PM , Rating: 3
"A fool and his money are soon parted."


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Keeir on 8/25/2009 2:51:59 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah... this makes absolutely no sense.

Is VW doing a similar thing with its Jetta TDIs?

A Prius is an okay car at 5,000 mark-up compared to a C-class car. But at more than 10,000 mark-up, it gets kinda stupid. Get a PZEV Jetta or Impreza and spend the 5,000 dollar lifetime car savings on more efficient appliances, lightbulbs, etc if you really want to be green.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Maza13 on 8/25/2009 4:02:48 PM , Rating: 2
I'll probably get rated down, but this has to be said. These people paying $6000-$10000 over MSRP and don't mind paying that are the same fanatics that buy Apple products. In other words, the love overpaying.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Omega215D on 8/25/2009 11:52:17 PM , Rating: 1
Considering that this is a Prius they are overpaying for they have to be the same Apple fanatics and the smuggness levels will go through the roof.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 8/26/2009 11:16:06 AM , Rating: 3
I guess these are the same people paying $30,000 over sticker for a GT-R. Apple fanatics. piffle. </sarcasm>


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Smilin on 8/31/2009 6:12:30 PM , Rating: 2
Considering the GT-R outperforms cars 30k over it's price I'm not sure that's a good example.

The same can't really be said about the performance and price of apple products.


RE: Boggles my mind.
By Byte on 8/25/2009 5:47:33 PM , Rating: 4
You people need to understand that people aren't buying this car to save money/planet. They are buying this car to be able to say "I saved the planet today, WTF did YOU do?" The southpark episode pretty much sums it up. I still want one because it gets girls wet like my old muscle car did before everyone became hippies.


From the Suburban Collection
By Daniel Boismier on 8/25/2009 2:45:34 PM , Rating: 4
Hello,

I am the Internet Sales Director for the Suburban Collection.

I would like to comment on this issue regarding the Prius.
As a free market economy we operate in general by the laws of supply and demand. As an organization in business to make a profit we comply with this competitive force.

The majority of our vehicles are priced below MSRP, because that is what the market dictates. There are even times when discounts are below costs.

To allude that we are somehow unethical (lacking morals) because we price our vehicles according to market demand seems to be short sighted.

The mere fact that
quote:
“DailyTech then proceeded to contact six other Toyota dealerships in lower Michigan. None of the other dealers had stock in”
demonstrates the extremely low supply of this vehicle.

If our current pricing strategy for the Prius does not work the marketplace will force us to adjust it accordingly.

Also, please remember that the acronym MSRP has "Suggested" in it.




RE: From the Suburban Collection
By JasonMick (blog) on 8/25/2009 3:00:13 PM , Rating: 1
Hi Daniel,

First let me say I think the 2010 Prius is an impressive vehicle and I find Toyota to be quite responsible with its corporate policies.

That said, I would like to address your comment. First of all, I'd like to point out that of the other dealers I contacted, at least one flat out said what you were doing -- that selling over MSRP was wrong. Another said such practices are bad business. These are your fellow Toyota dealers. It seems that you are in the minority marking up prices.

Secondly, while I acknowledge that the realities of economics can mandate a markup at times, I think that your dealership has overstepped charging such a huge markup, particularly at a time when so many good deals abound. I'm sure you're not the only Toyota dealership across the nation to do this, but I think you are in the minority of Toyota dealers (feel free to contradict this).

It is understood that MSRP is a suggestion, as the acronym implies, but from most I've talked to in the automotive industry it appears that it is considered bad business to charge customers more than MSRP on a mass-produced vehicle, especially during times of economic duress. If the vehicles command more, the company should raise its MSRP on a year-to-year basis.

I do appreciate you sharing your perspective, though. Best of luck.

-Jason M.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By TomZ on 8/25/2009 3:04:48 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
...that selling over MSRP was wrong
Jason, that's stupid. Of course a competiting dealership is going to make such a statement about their competition. And do you think that car salesmen are experts in ethics anyway?

Pricing over MSRP for a commodity that is in high demand is the norm , not the exception, and there's nothing wrong with that.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Lord 666 on 8/25/2009 6:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
If an item was in scarce supply and available from only one vendor, it would not be called a commodity. By definition, a commodity is something that is indistinguishable regardless of supplier; gas and electricity are good examples.

Hence, this is why Toyota dealers can mark up the prices since they are the only source of a new Prius.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By MonkeyPaw on 8/25/2009 7:00:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course a competiting dealership is going to make such a statement about their competition.


I've had to buy 2 new cars this year (thanks to a guy running a red light killing the first one a month after we bought it), and car salesmen always call the "other guys" big crooks that kill puppies and kittens in their spare time. Oddly enough, our second car came with a nice scented candle--made by our car salesman. :o


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By MadMan007 on 8/25/2009 7:15:00 PM , Rating: 4
How much you want to bet the candle was made in part from dead puppies and kittens? ;)


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Lord 666 on 8/25/2009 7:33:20 PM , Rating: 2
Nah, it was to hide the scent of dead kittens and puppies in the trunk and the mildew smell from it being a salvage vehicle.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By acejj26 on 8/25/2009 7:45:47 PM , Rating: 3
Absolutely no one complains when a car is sold less than MSRP, which is a byproduct of greater supply than demand at that price point. It is basic economics that says that when the opposite occurs, when the supply, at a given price point, cannot keep up with the demand, the price must go up.

A dealer can charge whatever he would like. If no one wants to buy the car at that price, he will lower it to a point where someone will. There is always a middle ground, and market forces will determine that price.

This is seen in the computer parts market as well. When newegg gets a new product with very high demand and a low supply, the price is often times higher than the MSRP. Why? Because they can. No one forces someone to buy that computer part, just as no one is forcing someone to buy a new car at a price that is higher than MSRP.

Perhaps you should change the title of your article to "Economics 101 - Capitalism," and then proceed to use this example as a perfect demonstration of supply and demand.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By deeznuts on 8/26/2009 3:03:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is understood that MSRP is a suggestion, as the acronym implies, but from most I've talked to in the automotive industry it appears that it is considered bad business to charge customers more than MSRP on a mass-produced vehicle, especially during times of economic duress. If the vehicles command more, the company should raise its MSRP on a year-to-year basis.
You really advocating manufacturers yo-yo'ing MSRP due to demand? What if they raise it up and demand softens and they're not quick to lower it? Dumbest argument ever Jason (not calling you dumb, just your comment).

Economic duress? People in economic duress don't overpay for cars. Dealers are in more economic duress than greenies overpaying for Priuses.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By TomZ on 8/25/2009 3:01:47 PM , Rating: 5
I'm glad you replied. A good rule of thumb at DailyTech is "don't feed the trolls," and the problem here specifically is that Jason is a troll who is writing "news articles." His job depends on writing "controversial" articles that generate page clicks, and trash like this is how he does it.

What - pricing based on supply and demand and prices sometimes going over MSRP? That happens all the time in every industry, and in most cases there is nothing unethical or illegal about it. Only the mind of a child would think otherwise.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By grath on 8/25/2009 7:32:00 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah I was surprised and disbelieving to see "Exclusive" in the title, and even more so when it appeared that Jason had done some legitimate investigative reporting.

If the question is "How much can you reasonably charge above MSRP?" the answer is "As much as you can get away with." Thats not immoral or unethical, thats capitalism. Is capitalism inherently immoral and unethical? Probably, but that wasnt the question.

Cash for Clunkers adds an interesting aspect though, it makes it more than a matter of supply and demand. The intent of the rebate was to make the new car more affordable to the buyer, not for the dealer to pocket that $3000-$4500. The dealer already benefits from the program through more cars being bought, but thats not enough for some, so they use supply and demand as an excuse to take the subsidy out of our wallets. That, I would argue, should cross the line into realms of legality and questionable ethics.

As far as Micktastic articles go, I suppose this one wasnt entirely worthless...


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By zxern on 8/26/2009 12:39:25 PM , Rating: 2
He never does this much research for one of his "stories". I have a feeling he was looking to buy a prius and couldn't find a deal and the "story" was born.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By MadMan007 on 8/25/09, Rating: -1
RE: From the Suburban Collection
By DotNetGuru on 8/25/2009 3:56:30 PM , Rating: 3
Ethics and morality have nothing to do with supply and demand. It is a law of economics, just as laws related to nature, math, physics. Ethics and morality are somewhat imaginary, or at least they do not fuction in the domain of these 'real' laws.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By The0ne on 8/25/2009 5:37:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yea lol. That was too funny.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By MonkeyPaw on 8/25/2009 7:20:58 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, ethics and morality do matter in business, but those concepts aren't the issue here.

It would be "unethical" if the dealer secretly changed the price after you signed the papers. It would be "immoral" if they forced you to buy the car at gun point. From what I can see, they didn't do that.

If one wanted to sensationalize this article, the fodder was easy--people were willing to pay too much for a hybrid. These people just turned in cars that got under 19 MPG, so even a car that gets 25-35 MPG would be a huge net savings. So basically people overpaid for something in a bad market.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Hiawa23 on 8/25/2009 4:05:11 PM , Rating: 2
Just because pricing follows supply and demand doesn't make it moral and ethical.

moral or ethical....what's this?

Seems like supply demand, as products go up when there is high demand & not enough supply & vice versus, atleast this is what Karl Rove argued with Bill O' Reilly about the ripoff high gas prices. If their are consumers who allow themselves to be ripped off to buy this ugly green bug, more power to em. Sounds like capitalism...ur, or not, the American way...j/k. shaft or be shafted....


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 4:38:14 PM , Rating: 4
Are you saying it's immoral and unethical to charge a high price on a fvcking Prius??

When you find someone price gouging for AIDS drugs come and find me. Until then spare everyone the righteous indignation.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By TomZ on 8/25/2009 5:10:14 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly!


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By MadMan007 on 8/25/2009 5:39:13 PM , Rating: 2
Why don't you guys try reading the freaking post to which I replied. 'Morals and ethics have nothing to do with pricing' was exactly my point but not in the way you guys think, it was in response to the dealer writing <q>To allude that we are somehow unethical (lacking morals) because we price our vehicles according to market demand seems to be short sighted.</q> which attempts to use market demand to excuse away morals or ethics.

Now before you say that I agree whatever price they charge is fine, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the one should not be used to excuse away the other. Unless you've been living under a rock 'market demand > morals and ethics' has caused a bit of a stir up in the economy as of late.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 5:46:30 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, sorry. Here is your butt back. It's a bit chewed up but it should still work.

Word your post more clearly next time.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By thurston on 8/25/2009 9:12:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When you find someone price gouging for AIDS drugs come and find me.


How about $20000 a year for AIDS drugs?


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/26/2009 9:31:34 AM , Rating: 2
20k/year for AIDS drugs in a modern industrial country is not gouging. You're taking a cocktail of like 5 very expensive drugs. I know someone with ADD that's paying $4,200/year for a single med.

Back to the point though: You are not going to DIE if you don't get a Prius so there is nothing forcing you to buy one. If you get overcharged then it's your own fault.

Does anyone actually want to debate this?


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By thurston on 8/26/2009 9:47:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
20k/year for AIDS drugs in a modern industrial country is not gouging.


I couldn't afford it as a healthy working individual in a modern industrial country(US of Motherfucking A, bitches!). So how could I afford it if I was dieing of AIDS, not able to work?

quote:
I know someone with ADD that's paying $4,200/year for a single med.


Then you should also know what a burden paying that much for meds is if they don't have insurance. If they do have insurance then they are not paying $4200/y. Most people dieing from AIDS are not the kind of people with health insurance.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/27/2009 10:26:49 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
(US of Motherfucking A, bitches!)


You know that assistance is available in the US of A for that as well as arrangement to lower the cost?

I on the other hand CAN afford 20k/year if my life depends on it so that's what I'll end up paying. No assistance for me.

While we're debating this whole thing do you mind bringing up a source for that 20k/year figure?

quote:
Then you should also know what a burden paying that much for meds is if they don't have insurance. If they do have insurance then they are not paying $4200/y. Most people dieing from AIDS are not the kind of people with health insurance.


That $4200/year is AFTER insurance. It's irrelevant who is paying though. We're talking about what is being charged.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Steve1981 on 8/26/2009 12:52:42 PM , Rating: 2
It is perfectly moral and ethical.

What pray tell is moral or ethical about forcing someone to sell you a product at a price which he doesn't wish to part with it?


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By clovell on 8/25/2009 4:18:15 PM , Rating: 3
Mr. Boimier,

Please explain how this is a free market economy when the government has subsidized the 'demand' that you appeal to with tax dollars. What you're doing is HIGHLY questionable in terms of ethics.

The arrogance involved in defending such tactics with a condescending lesson in economics further erodes your credibility. The only thing short-sighted here is that you actually think your back-pedalling will somehow 'defend' your reputation.

Many have argued the utility and intent of the CARS program on these forums and elsewhere, but there is quite a bit of solidarity behind the notion that it was never intended to give dealers a higher profit per copy and consumers the shaft. Mr. Mick has called a spade a spade here.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By TomZ on 8/25/2009 5:27:53 PM , Rating: 4
I think it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that the CARS program is wrongly enriching the dealerships. That is entirely the purpose! CARS is effectively a handout from the federal government to big business - dealerships, OEMs, and the automotive supply chain.

Let me guess - you were drinking the Democratic Kool-Aid in thinking that CARS was about helping "common folk"? LOL, you are a fool.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By clovell on 8/26/09, Rating: 0
RE: From the Suburban Collection
By TSS on 8/25/2009 5:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yknow, i really do not want to defend this person or the business practices they employ. Ethically it's very wrong.

But on the other hand, he does have a point. His company is acting accordingly to the free market. If the government has tried to intervene in that market, that doesn't make this behaviour wrong, it makes the government's behaviour wrong.

If you hand out free money people are going to fight over that free money. Appearantly there's no wording in the legislation preventing markups beeing made on CfC vehicles, so how can you expect nobody to take advantage of that? (comming from the same guys who handed out a free trillion, i ain't suprised).

Besides wether a consumer or a dealership gets that $4,500 it's still comming from the tax payers, who are the consumers. To top it off you cannot get $4,500 unless you spend more then $4,500 at a time when consumer debt is at an all time high? So ultimatly, it *was* designed to give them the shaft, no matter how you slice it.

Forget what's wrong for a moment, let's discuss what's *more* wrong: This company breaking ethics on solidarity and applying free market principle, or the government breaking free market ethics and applying solidarity principles?


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Keeir on 8/25/2009 6:17:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But on the other hand, he does have a point. His company is acting accordingly to the free market. If the government has tried to intervene in that market, that doesn't make this behaviour wrong, it makes the government's behaviour wrong.


Pretty much.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By DigitalFreak on 8/25/2009 7:57:55 PM , Rating: 2
Come on! Everyone knows that car dealers are the scum of the earth. It's always been a three way race between them, lawyers and politicians.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/26/2009 9:46:02 AM , Rating: 2
Here, here!

I'm in the middle of a multimonth saga of getting a component repaired that only the dealer can handle so I'm forced to go to them. They are buttraping me on labor, diagnostic fees, parts and more parts, and more labor.

Today at least I'm going to say that car dealers are winning that race.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By tmouse on 8/26/2009 8:31:52 AM , Rating: 4
You would have a point if Toyota was the only dealership involved in the program and people HAD to go to them. The point of fact is the government does not specifically care one way or the other, the goal (misguided or not) was to "stimulate" auto sales, plain and simple. NO one was forced to pay that price it was entirely the decision of the buyer. There is no ethical dilemma here, people were not compelled in ANY way to deal with these greedy people. They had an item there was no moral imperative to make as little money as possible on cars sold through the program. The program offered an incentive, many dealers offered greater ones (many HAD to), Toyota did not need to on their Prius lines and in fact could charge more. This is not morally or ethically wrong since they were not taking advantage of anyone, EVERYONE was free to choose and either take the price or pass. If there was ANY requirement concerning the Prius I would agree with you but there was not. I'm sure many dealers who jacked up the prices will pay in the long lean months to come, some dealers who dropped the prices will also fail in the months to come.


RE: From the Suburban Collection
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 4:47:01 PM , Rating: 4
The readers here understand supply/demand. Nobody is getting "gouged" here except the willing. You are selling out of Priuses as fast as you can get them in. If you don't raise the price I would consider you a fool.

My advice:

Don't let this article worry you.
Don't reply further in the comments.


Supply and Demand
By Alexstarfire on 8/25/2009 2:10:00 PM , Rating: 5
Wait a minute.... you mean they are charging more money for a product that is in high demand but low supply? I'd never have guessed that would ever happen. Jesus Christ people, just give it some time for the supply to balance out. I hardly call it price gouging when you charge more for a product you have in short supply.




RE: Supply and Demand
By Alexstarfire on 8/25/2009 2:12:55 PM , Rating: 5
Assuming short supply of course. If not...... then it's still not price gouging as a car certainly isn't a necessity. Just don't buy that overpriced car at that specific dealership.

Stupid consumers are always the most profitable ones.


RE: Supply and Demand
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 2:14:05 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly!

+1


RE: Supply and Demand
By MrDiSante on 8/25/2009 2:22:22 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed. Microeconomics 101. You provide rebates for something with a virtually inelastic short-run supply, what's going to happen? Those rebates are gonna end up right back in the pockets of the suppliers. If/when Toyota decides to ramp up production, prices will fall. Meanwhile, I hope the Obama administration enjoys handing over money borrowed from China to dealerships.


RE: Supply and Demand
By DotNetGuru on 8/25/2009 3:52:18 PM , Rating: 2
+1


RE: Supply and Demand
By Hiawa23 on 8/26/2009 8:45:19 AM , Rating: 2
Meanwhile, I hope the Obama administration enjoys handing over money borrowed from China to dealerships.

Is this a new concept? The govt has been handing over borrowed money from China long before Obama took office. Seems odd that now some want to say or blame Obama for this mess that has been decades in the making. It's scary the hate many are pushing all across this country & it's really starting to concern me as this is all some radicals need as an excuse to do something terrible, & set our country back another 10-20 years in relations. I hope we wise up before something happens & try to find solutions to these issues instead of pushing blame on someone.


RE: Supply and Demand
By TomZ on 8/26/2009 5:37:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is this a new concept?
No, but Obama has put all past presidents to "shame" in terms of their ability to spend money that we don't have. Granted, there is the recession to deal with, but the huge debt from the current administration's spending is going to be with us for a long, long time.


RE: Supply and Demand
By Smilin on 8/27/2009 10:31:35 AM , Rating: 2
He's no where near Bush or Reagan although he is heading in that direction. Try to understand the "why" though.

When the economy goes into a cycle where consumers buy less, factories lay off, which causes consumers to buy less then the govornment steps in to become a consumer.

You have to deficit spend to give a "shot of nitrous" to the economy. Same thing Reagan did very effectively after the Carter administration. The problem this time is that Bush handed Obama an empty nitrous bottle...tax cuts during war. f'n retarded.


RE: Supply and Demand
By The0ne on 8/25/2009 4:00:46 PM , Rating: 2
Well I agree with you somewhat but I still think it's gauging to some extent when the price is by a large amount. There really isn't anything new about this news. Dealerships have been doing this for ages. Here are the recent markups last year when I was out shopping around for a new car.

1. Honda Fit - about 4-5k markup from MSRP. Into the Civic territory. Why would you want a Fit over a Civic?

2. GTR - at least 7k markup

3. EVO X - at least 3k markup. Had to find the right dealership to get below MSRP :)

4. Smart - at least 4k markup. This one actually surprised me. The salesman was the one that told me how they were marking them up and told me to pass on it lol

5. BMW M3 2009 - I think 8k markup, lost interest quickly and got my reserve money back after finding out the price O.o

6. Lexus IS250/350 - 4k markup simply because here in San Diego they can :) It's a very popular car here.

I'm sure there are others but these were the ones I was interested in. Either sports or economy :D

So Prius is going the same route due to demand, A LOT of demand, so go figure if dealerships want to make some money :) Seriously, there is so much demand Toyota has shifted "teams" from other departments to help with production; at least 40+ teams!


RE: Supply and Demand
By darrenk on 8/25/2009 5:00:43 PM , Rating: 2
The Honda Odyssey was the flagship for market adjustments in the first part of this decade. You'd be on a waiting list for 3 months or more if you didn't want to pay over MSRP. Then you'd get a weekly call saying the dealer just got an "extra" allocation but they all have a few thousand worth of accessories, paint sealant, undercoating, fabric protector, etc, etc. Despite the waiting list, there were always some on the lot with a big market adjustment for those willing to pay. And someone was always willing. Hard to fault the dealer for charging what the market will sustain, even when done in a sleazy manner.

The Prius was not quite as bad in Chicago earlier this month. Dealers were selling them as fast as they came in at full MSRP, though. Most didn't have one to test drive, either and some were taking orders for those coming in the next few weeks.

Not all dealers were charging MSRP. The Carmax new Toyota dealer had two for $500 under MSRP on their website the day we wanted to buy. Not a great deal by any means, but we ended up buying one from them a couple weeks ago.


RE: Supply and Demand
By marvdmartian on 8/26/2009 10:05:17 AM , Rating: 2
Same sort of markups came about for the Chevy Malibu when they came out with the new design for 2008. People wanted them, and dealerships were willing to charge a couple thousand more while the car was hot.

Doesn't make it right, though.

And they wonder why we call them STEALerships!

Of course, there's nothing wrong with getting together a mob with pitchforks and torches under these circumstances, right? ;)


moot
By dome1234 on 8/25/2009 2:06:34 PM , Rating: 2
the whole idea of hybrid is save money. Why some ppl willing to pay a year or two of gas money extra for it is odd.

Hybrid is becoming more of a trend.




RE: moot
By Chinnan on 8/25/2009 2:13:10 PM , Rating: 2
It has nothing to do with Hybrid, or not. These Stealers try to markup(read loot) customers whenever/wherever possible.

Since this car currently has demand they try to extort money. If you take 2009 Prius, it was sold less than even invoice by some dealers.

Unfortunately people paid this kind markup for Honda Fit, even Mazda3.


RE: moot
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 8/25/2009 2:15:58 PM , Rating: 2
I know I sure as hell didn't pay over MSRP for my Mazda3 (bought it in December 2005). I bought it directly through my Credit Union and paid below MSRP.

I'm sorry, but no new car is worth paying over MSRP.


RE: moot
By Chinnan on 8/25/2009 2:26:06 PM , Rating: 2
Mazda3 hatch was commanding premium at least one point of time, The car I liked at that time.

I am not sure with 2010 model though.


RE: moot
By ClownPuncher on 8/25/2009 2:31:33 PM , Rating: 2
You don't have to pay sticker price on cars, you can negotiate. People who go into a dealership and pay whatever the salesman is asking are usually not the brightest. Sure, they can ask $19k on a $15k car, but it's your choice whether or not you're going to get ripped off.


RE: moot
By Chinnan on 8/25/2009 2:38:05 PM , Rating: 2
I would not pay either, but I get pissed off when these dealers quote such a stupid/unrealistic price for the cars.

Few years ago when Honda Fit was released, I had same experience with local Honda dealer. They quoted $19.5k for base fit!!!?WTF. I just blasted the sales rep and got out of there.


RE: moot
By crimson117 on 8/25/2009 3:07:29 PM , Rating: 4
It's not only to save money. It's also to use less oil when driving, for conservation purposes.


So what?
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 2:12:39 PM , Rating: 5
The tone of the article implies some sort of "Gouging". I just don't agree.

When every dealership in the area is selling out of these things before they can even get them in the show room what do you expect? The would be utter fools not to raise the price.

If they are up front about it I don't see a problem. It's not like the cash for clunkers program includes a guy who points a gun at your head. Go to another dealer, pick another car, or skip the whole thing.




RE: So what?
By Spivonious on 8/25/2009 2:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. It's called supply & demand.

MSRP is a suggestion not a limit.


RE: So what?
By clovell on 8/25/2009 4:29:30 PM , Rating: 1
Ok - so if a Hurricane wiped out the Galveston area, and the feds gave the city an emergency grant to buy lumber to rebuild, but some of the lumber companies charged higher than standard rates, you'd call that fair?

Without the grant, the city wouldn't be able to buy the lumber at that price, and the companies would have to drop it down. It's not illegal and maybe not unethical, but it sure as shit isn't endearing.


RE: So what?
By Smilin on 8/25/2009 4:43:34 PM , Rating: 1
A sudden surge in demand for wood so the price goes up? Yes. Yes I do think that's fair.

At the same time I would be inclined as a supplier to cut people some slack. As a normal citizen I would also be likely to help someone financially.

However that situation is completely different than this one. We're not talking about price gouging on AIDS drugs here, we're talking about a f'n Prius.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to get gouged if you simply don't buy one. Ta-Da! Solved.


Sorry, I did not see the Author.. its Jason Mick
By Chinnan on 8/25/2009 2:20:45 PM , Rating: 3
He got a chance to throw mud at Prius again.

Good lord. It is nothing to do with Prius or not, It is for any Car that is in Short supply, dealers are marking up.

But again, it is fault of the buyers who is paying this premium. As someone mentioned, nobody asked the buyer to pay this price or buy this car at gun point. Unfortunately it the choice of the buyer, however stupid it may be.

Both Honda and Toyota dealers has been doing this for a long time.




By sigmatau on 8/25/2009 2:40:04 PM , Rating: 2
What's interesting is that most of the information was derived from unconfirmed postings on websites. It could be that only 2 dealers in the whole country are doing this. I don't believe that, but who knows?

I will say that dealers should be able to make a little more off a high demand item. Maybe up to $1000 if this was $5/gallon times but right now they should go for less than MSRP. There should be rules in place for things like this. Maybe a law that states you can't raise the price more than 5% due to supply and demand on big ticket items.


By acase on 8/25/2009 3:11:17 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it's a shame he actually decided to do some "investigative reporting" for once, and it was on such a stupid topic.


By TomZ on 8/25/2009 5:39:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the main intention of which, was NOT to inflate dealerships' profit
Are you sure about that? Let's see...a program to drive demand and increase purchases of automobiles. Who exactly do you think would most benefit from that, financially?


Word Check! :)
By MindParadox on 8/25/2009 1:57:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Toyota was commented by DailyTech and we are awaiting their comment.


Don't you mean "contacted by DailyTech"?




RE: Word Check! :)
By SandmanWN on 8/25/2009 2:07:51 PM , Rating: 2
additional word check
quote:
Sales Agent: "We do... it's been sold to Ford but the sale is finalized yet."

sure you meant "isn't" there

by the way, what sort of exclusive is involved in getting ripped off by a car dealership? Doesn't that happened every few seconds? :P


It is not just Prius..
By Chinnan on 8/25/2009 2:07:41 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately it is quite common practice here in the NW esp by both Honda and Toyota stealers(I mean dealer). Last time when I was looking for a small car and went to local Honda Stealer for a Base Honda Fit with Automatic transmission. After Dealer Markup it was quoted at $19,500!!. Same dealer was selling Civic LX for 17k.

I hate this practice, and I do not like people who encourage this either.




RE: It is not just Prius..
By stlrenegade on 8/26/2009 5:08:50 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't have any issues with my Cash for Clunkers purchase.

Walked in to get the 2009 Honda Fit. I paid $100 above invoice, and with getting $4500 for my Isuzu Rodeo, financed about $12,600.

I was going to buy a car anyway, because my '01 Rodeo was costing quite a bit in repairs, and it was coming due in December for emissions and safety inspection. I knew it wouldn't pass without some work (brakes, emissions stuff)

So now I'm in a new car, high MPG (I commute 60 miles per day), hopefully no major repair work for awhile, and I don't have to worry about getting the Rodeo inspected. And I would have never received $4500 for trading my Rodeo in. I figured I was going to get $800-1000 for it.


Free Market > You
By sigmatau on 8/25/2009 2:34:13 PM , Rating: 1
This is what you get with a completely free market. "Just let people do whatever they want and it will correct itself"....ya right. I'm all in for democracy, but PEOPLE NEED RULES.




RE: Free Market > You
By Pedrom666 on 8/25/2009 8:31:16 PM , Rating: 3
That's the problem, it's not a completely free market. The Federal Government is sticking its nose into things it shouldn't. The more intervention by an outside force, the more unintended (or intended) consequences you have. Either way it is a free market meaning you can choose to participate or not which is in the best interest for everyone involved (even the Federal Government if they would just get out of the way).


By markitect on 8/25/2009 2:53:13 PM , Rating: 2
I can speak from personal experience that Suburban Toyota is one of the worst dealers you could possibly deal with. Nothing is off limits for them when it comes to trying to screw you out of more money. This has nothing to do with cash for clunkers, they do this every day.

Also this has nothing to do with Toyota, it is a few dealers out to line their pocket and a few people stupid enough to do it. If anyone has this happen to them I encourage you to call the manufacturer and tell them what is going on.




By TomZ on 8/25/2009 3:07:29 PM , Rating: 2
Better yet, buy from a different dealership. When I bought my last Toyota, I decided what I wanted, and then contacted a few different dealerships to find one that would work with me in terms of getting a good price, good trade-in, and good financing. Then I bought from them. It's not rocket science.


Shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!
By Anonymous Freak on 8/25/2009 7:22:09 PM , Rating: 2
A car dealership being slimy and money-grubbing?!?!?! In this day and age??

And, on top of it, a real-world example of supply-and-demand at work?!?!

I'm flabbergasted.

Admittedly, when one or two dealers in a town are doing it, claiming lack of supply; when other dealers have plenty, it's a bit slimy.

But when *NO* dealership has any, this is just supply and demand at work.

I bought a 2004 Prius when they first came out (the first year of the 'spaceship' body style; the earlier ones looked like a misshapen Civic.) When I went to buy mine, I had three choices:
Put myself on a waiting list for the first available Prius, regardless of package and color. Approximate wait time: 3 months.
Put myself on a waiting list for the exact color and package I want. Approximate wait time: 3-12 months, depending on the exact color and package.
Go to one of the few dealerships in town that didn't do wait lists, but purely did first-come, first-served; and pay $5000 over MSRP. Even these dealers only saw the cars sit on the lot for about an hour.

I wasn't willing to compromise on color and package (ironically, I had to; though, because the color I really wanted didn't actually exist. The flyers misrepresented it by a massive amount.) I had a child on the way in less than 3 months, and the old car was unacceptable. I was willing to pay the $5000 to get it sooner. I just took it into account as the cost of not waiting. (At the time, many 'wait-list' dealerships were offering used original-style Priuses for more than the brand new ones!)

Would I pay $5000 over now? Not a chance. I have no reason to pay $5k just to cut a current maximum one month wait off. If my current Prius were to be totaled, I would certainly buy a new 2010 Prius. But I have a second car now that is safe, so I have no problem waiting.




RE: Shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!
By Smilin on 8/26/2009 9:52:15 AM , Rating: 2
You forgot your 4th choice: Buy something else.

Rationalize it all you want but you got ripped off. Sorry man.


concerned about Jason Mick...
By johnsonx on 8/26/2009 12:07:08 AM , Rating: 4
Everyone here by now knows I'm no fan of Jason Mick's articles and writing style, but at a human-being level I bear him no ill will.

So, I am a bit concerned about the negative effects on his health due to living under a rock, apparently for many years. Having recently come out from under it, he's discovered Dealer Markup on popular vehicles in limited supply. Understandably, having been living under a rock for so long this is a new phenomena to him. Living under a rock may also help explain some of Jason's other articles.

Get well soon Jason!




Nice Article, Jason
By clovell on 8/25/09, Rating: 0
RE: Nice Article, Jason
By BigPeen on 8/25/2009 7:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
I don't get how a company charging as much money as it can for a product (that's nowhere NEAR a necessity like food or something) is "gouging" or "wrong".


RE: Nice Article, Jason
By clovell on 8/26/2009 10:42:28 AM , Rating: 1
When said company is in collusion with the government, the sacred laws of supply and demand become tainted. See my other comments on the article.


That's the reazon...
By bobny1 on 8/25/2009 7:15:10 PM , Rating: 1
all dealers and car companies should go out of business. The entire automobile industry is a freaking dump. The world should go back to basics; walking, biking, horse back riding, etc. No more pollution, no more oil, no more agressive drivers. So, people will be nicer and live longer.




RE: That's the reazon...
By Pedrom666 on 8/25/2009 8:33:46 PM , Rating: 2
That's realistic. Hopefully that was meant in jest.


By EglsFly on 8/25/2009 11:02:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
many buyers chose to purchase vehicles from foreign manufacturers instead.
It's already been debunked that this is incorrect, however DT continues to spread this incorrect information. AGAIN in case you didn't read it:

Reality Check: Trucks win in Cash for Clunkers game
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/07/autos/cash_for_clu...
quote:
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- What are people trading their clunkers in for? It depends on who you ask.

The government's results showed small cars as the top choice for shoppers looking for Cash for Clunker deals. But an independent analysis by Edmunds.com disputed those results, and showed that two full-size trucks and a small crossover SUV were actually among the top-ten buys.

In fact if you follow the link above, more people purchased Ford F-150 TRUCKS than any foreign CAR under this program. Actually only 2 foreign manufactured cars even made the top ten list, with the highest coming in at #6, and it was a Honda Civic.




Car Dealers
By CalWorthing on 8/25/2009 3:26:07 PM , Rating: 2
Nothing new here. In terms of an individual's lifetime of 'buying' things, the expenditure for a motor vehicle is usually only second to that of a home and should include a dose of a price-comparison reality session.

40 yrs. of buying and selling cars confirms that dealers & staff range from criminals to good-guys. Word of mouth and the better business bureau can reduce the angst. The local Honda and Toyota dealers are both "F" rated by the BBB, deservedly so. They're outright liars and crooks.




Big deal...
By chrnochime on 8/25/2009 8:51:44 PM , Rating: 2
So what's so new about "MVA"s anyway? We get plenty of dealers here in the bay area with MVA/markup plastered right beside the MSRP sheet. Can't find better news to post or what?




Please explain to me...
By klstay on 8/26/2009 8:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
...how dumb people being separated from their money by their betters is a problem?

Of course I continue to allow myself to be separated from my money for taxes which is in turn used for programs like this, so what does that make me? (Seriously, the federal government subsidizing the private purchase of a new vehicle with tax money? How low/left can we go?)




not too suprised
By rika13 on 8/26/2009 9:06:28 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not too surprised the dealers are charging more.

the rebate requires a 13 page form and many dealers havent been paid yet due to backlogs at the DoT; when in reality it only needs the VIN on the old vehicle (you can tell who owns the vehicle, what make/model/year/engine/body style, how long its had plates/insurance)

but instead of doing something easy like everything over 5 years old, its this arcane criteria and then suddenly the EPA "revised" the fuel economy numbers on a number of vehicles to make them ineligible and the program is only for a very short time




By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 8/26/2009 11:17:30 AM , Rating: 2
That's our Jason. Create a hornets nest, then poke a stick into it, then watch the posts come flodding in.




Not in Los Angeles
By kaborka on 8/26/2009 1:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
There are plenty of Toyota dealers in the LA area selling the Prius below MSRP. I brought in my clunker and got one. It was hard to get the color and options I wanted, but I came close, and still below MSRP.




yup...
By cruisin3style on 8/26/2009 1:47:52 PM , Rating: 2
My brother and i both had old jeeps that we were all to eager to trade in for a couple gas sippers. I looked at corollas a few weeks before the program started, but decided on a mazda 3. My brother, however, wanted a corolla. We went back to the same dealership after the program had started and I couldn't be sure but i am almost positive that the prices on all of the corollas were jacked up by 500-750 more than the prices i saw a few weeks before cash for clunkers started. I didn't look at the msrp of any other car but that's just shady




a tax on stupidity
By mattclary on 8/26/2009 4:01:14 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone who pays that much for it deserves what they get.

Stupid tree-huggers. And people make fun of conservatives as mouth-breathing idiots... ;)




By WarDogLRS on 8/26/2009 4:41:56 PM , Rating: 2
Well, it looks like the economic crisis is over. Last week it was discovered in Washington that the “Cash for Clunkers” campaign worked. The program is been heralded as a fantastic success. It was so successful that after we spent one billion dollars the House rushed to give two more billion dollars and everybody is delighted that it’s going to stimulate the car industry.

But when you stop and think for a minute, it’s pretty absurd what is going on here. “Print up a lot of money, give it to a few people to buy a car and the numbers look better and therefore this is the way the economy is going to be taken care of and recovered.” But there are lot fallacies in this, obviously. This program when it was first voted on was meant to help people who had old cars and they were in the low income bracket to help them buy a new car.

It didn’t do anything of the kind. The poor people, the people with poor credit did not come to buy a car, they didn’t go through this process. As a matter of fact, this program is being paid for by the poor people, because they’re taking the clunkers off the highway. They’re deliberately hauling these in if they do end up in these car lots, they’re purposely destroyed which undermines the very market that the poor people depend on.

Not only that, the poor end up paying a bigger price for this than anybody else. Because there really is no money in the bank. We know that. They can’t tax anymore and the borrowing is more difficult than ever. So what do we do? Back to the old story again: lets just print up the money. Printing up money gives you inflation. Who suffers the most? The poor people who didn’t get to buy a car. Just like the poor people who we thought we were going to give all these new houses to with all these affirmative action programs. Guess who lost all their houses, guess who are suffering the most? It’s the poor and the low-middle income people. They are the ones who lost their jobs and suffer from the consequences.

But the really disturbing part about all this is that most people in Washington, at least those who voted quickly to put in another two billion dollars into this program, actually believe these are good programs. And they think they help the poor, they think they stimulate the economy, and it’s total foolishness.

I mean, if you had someone to come and propose, say there is a new business in town, and he needed customers. But he has a good savings account, enough to buffer himself over for awhile, and he takes money out of the savings account and goes out on the street and the passes out money. He says, “You can have this money from me if you come and spend it in my store.” And they do that and then he brings out the cash register and he says, “Wow, today I made a lot of money.”

This whole notion that government can stimulate the economy by doing this is just as absurd as that. So, we obviously still have a long way to go. And for right now, the markets and others are starting to feel a little bit better. But, quite frankly, I think we’re just digging a bigger hole for ourselves. Debt is increasing, government intervention is increasing, and there is no end in sight.

We still have the basic problems. Government is too big, they spend up too much money, they interfere too much in all our personal activities, overseas activities, our economic activities and they’re dependent on deficits, they’re dependent on regulations, they’re dependent on the Federal Reserve to keep printing money.

But I’m working on the assumption that time is running out, we are doing well and trying to expose the Fed for what they are really up to. But time is running short and I would anticipate in the next year or two people aren’t going to be cheering and saying “The only thing we need now is another Cash for Clunkers program. If it worked for cars, why can’t it work for everything else?” But truth will win out in the end, and I think this absurdity of last week and this argument that we just pass out cash and they buy cars is a help to the economy, is a complete fallacy.




This is free-market economics.
By CZroe on 8/27/2009 3:08:56 AM , Rating: 2
This is free-market economics. It's totally fine to ask for more than MSRP when there are customers willing to pay it. In fact, it's illegal for the manufaturer to fix the price (see what happened to Nintendo with the NES). The "S" in "MSRP" means "SUGGESTED" after all and that's precisely why the manufacturer only "suggests" a price!

On the other hand, it's a little different when the dealers enter an agreement and then try to violate it to get more money from you. I dealt with this same situation last year when I bought a 61MPG Kawasaki Ninja 250R.

Most people in populated markets were paying up to and sometimes more than $5,000 out-the-door (includes tax, tag, & title). I had to pay MSRP ($3,500) plus over $250 in dealer fees and another $250+ in taxes and registration BUT I had to drive 600 miles to get it. The local dealers were intent on ripping me off. One even sold my reserved bike to another customer offering $1,000 more despite me having a deposit on it for months in advance! They double-deposited it and didn't tell me until after it arrived and was sold off to the higher-paying customer.

These particular bikes were selling for much more USED than new due to >$4.50 a gallon gasoline. Even the previous generation (1988-2007) which topped out at $3,000 MSRP on the last year model (2007) was commanding $4,000 to $5,000 on Craigslist.com. I'm not sure if they were actually selling for that but, at an even-better 85MPG, they may have been!

The dealers weren't the only ones getting in on the action. Rather than wait for the next model year to increase the MSRP by $500-to-$600, Kawasaki canceled the rest of the '08 models, one of which I had *another* deposit on, then turned around and sold them as "early-release '09 models." Dealers with unfulfilled stock got ONE to hold them off as Kawi manufacturing began stocking up on '09 bikes (only change was the color) with a $500 higher MSRP. Even the early-release came with the $500 price-hike and the official color, now a "Special Edition" was $600 more.




Imagine that...
By mcigna2002 on 8/27/2009 1:16:06 PM , Rating: 2
Dealerships and car salesmen acting like dopes? The only bigger dope is the person who plunked down 4-5k over sticker for the car. I can only hope they bought the undercoating too! Via Al Gore.




By girammab on 8/27/2009 3:23:09 PM , Rating: 2
In the free market, prices tend to rise when demand exceeds supply. If the government subsidizes the price of such a product, the price will tend to rise in proportion to the subsidy, so that supply and demand come into balance. The author calls this "price gouging," but I say he's wrong. It is Toyota keeping the high-demand Prius price at its natural market level.




By on 8/27/2009 9:08:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
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Armani(jeans, tshirts,) $24
AF(jeans, coat, hoody, sweater, tshirts)Abercrombie & Fitch $31
quote:
http://www.bbcloth.com
http://www.bbcloth.com




By on 8/27/2009 11:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
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jordan dunk af1 max gucci shoes $33;
By on 8/28/2009 10:10:36 PM , Rating: 2
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nike,jordan,prama,****, also including the jeans,shirts,bags,hat and the

decorations. All the products are free shipping, and the the price is competitive,

and also can accept the paypal payment.,after the payment, can ship within short

time.

free shipping
competitive price
any size available
accept the paypal

our price:
gstar coogi evisu true jeans $36;

coach chanel gucci LV handbags $32;

coogi DG edhardy gucci t-shirts $15;

CA edhardy vests.paul smith shoes $35;

jordan dunk af1 max gucci shoes $33;

EDhardy gucci ny New Era cap $15;

coach okely **** CHANEL DG Sunglass $16;

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http://www.crispstyle.com/productlist.asp?id=s11 ( Jeans )

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By on 8/30/2009 8:31:58 AM , Rating: 2
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nike jordan shoes 1-24 $32

lv, coach, chane bag $35

COOGI(jeans, tshirts, hoody, jacket) $30

christian audigier(jeans, tshirts, hoody) $13

edhardy(shoes, tshirts, jeans, caps, watche, handbag) $25

Armani(jeans, tshirts,) $24

AF(jeans, coat, hoody, sweater, tshirts)Abercrombie & Fitch $31

http://www.crispstyle.com




Grammatical Error
By bissimo on 8/25/2009 3:11:27 PM , Rating: 1
I hate to be a Mick-basher, but the plural of Prius would either be Priuses or simply Prius (although Prii might be fun.) The use of 's denotes possession.

's is generally only used to form a plural form when the noun in question is an abbreviation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe




Give me a break
By Mojo the Monkey on 8/26/2009 10:56:23 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
States one buyer, "A certain dealer in NJ that I am not at liberty to mention charges 6500 over sticker and calls it fair market value adjustment. luckily I found another one close by with better morals. They are charging sticker price and not a penny more."


This is so BS. Why does every Tom, Dick, and Harry think that they are mired in some high level contract with non-disclosure agreements? YOU ARE AT LIBERTY TO MENTION. There is nothing preventing this person from stating which dealership gave this price. There are no grounds for a lawsuit and, from the facts of the article, no indication of some extraneous agreement signed just to see their price. Just someone trying to sound important I guess.... its pompous.




What a waste
By ajoyner on 8/26/09, Rating: -1
"We basically took a look at this situation and said, this is bullshit." -- Newegg Chief Legal Officer Lee Cheng's take on patent troll Soverain














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