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It was just a normal day in the lab... until E. coli made the biggest evolutionary leap observed to date.  (Source: Michigan State)
E. Coli bacteria shows signs of evolution in lab testing

Despite an overwhelming body of scientific evidence, evolution is still a fiercely debate topic in some circles.  Many people take evolution for granted, simply understanding that it is the theory accepted by the scientific community based on the strong supporting evidence, and remain relatively oblivious to the controversy. 

However, the fact remains that yearly there are many protests and court cases in the U.S. and abroad where people try to block educational attempts to teach the theory of evolution and replace them with religious-based theories.

Fortunately for evolutionary scientists they now have perhaps the greatest piece of evidence of all -- the largest evolutionary leap observed to date.  The experiment started inconspicuously, with researchers at Michigan State University in East Lansing by using a single Escherichia coli bacterium and its descendants to found 12 populations.

Over 44,000 generations were observed and only minor mutations were observed, as is typical in these kinds of studies.  Typical beneficial mutations -- larger cell size, faster growth rates, and lower peak population densities -- were observed.

Then at generation 31,500 something shocking happened.  The bacteria evolved, gaining an entirely new gene that could process citrate, a nutrient that the bacteria could not previously use.  To put this in context, lack of citrate metabolism is one of E. coli's identifying traits.  And the newly evolved bacteria proceeded to dominate over their citrate-intolerant kin.

Says researcher Richard Lenski, "It's the most profound change we have seen during the experiment. This was clearly something quite different for them, and it's outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting."

Lenski says the only two explanations are either an extremely improbable mutation such as a rare chromosomal inversion, or a series of small mutation adding up to a useful new gene.  Was the trait inevitable, guided by some all powerful hand?  Lenski turned to his freezer for the answer.  Unthawing the bacteria, from early generations, he found that pure chance had guided the evolutionary leap and that the bacteria did not evolve the trait.  He did find that the later generations after 20,000 did evolve the trait eventually, indicating something happened around this time that laid the groundwork for the evolution.

He and his fellow researchers are currently studying exactly what change allowed for the eventual evolution.  This experiment, however, proves that evolution does not always lead to best possible outcome (in that other lines did not achieve the same optimal trait).  This has been a major point of contention raised by creationists who point to structures in nature that serve ornamental or little purpose as proof of creationism.

Further, it goes to show that profound changes can happen, including the introduction of entirely new genes.  A particularly harsh criticism leveled in the past by was that profound genetic changes, including the creation of new genes, were never observed.  Considering a few genes can account for profound morphological differences in larger organism, this is a very salient piece of evidence for evolution's supporters.

Jerry Coyne, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago lauded the research and took a bit of an opportunity to poke fun at creationists saying, "The thing I like most is it says you can get these complex traits evolving by a combination of unlikely events.  That's just what creationists say can't happen."

The findings are reported in the journal PNAS.



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A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 11:24:21 AM , Rating: 2
I will start out right now and state that I am a Creationist.

There, we have that out of the way. Let the mud-slinging commence. Now I will state that not only am I a creationist, but I am a _very_ strong supporter of science and technology and believe that they should go hand-in-hand without exception.

To be a creationist and to deny the importance of science/technology is ludicrous. This is where a lot of people get creationists wrong - as there are plenty of others like myself who value science to the highest degree.

I think stem cell research is absolutely critical to the advancement of mankind.

I also think that this article, which pokes at the fact that Creationists can be made fun of because it has been proven that a gene can evolve from nothing is absurd. I wholly believe that it is possible for cells/lifeforms to evolve over time into more useful beings. In order to accomplish this, genes would have to be created through evolution.

However, this article does nothing to further sway the idea that life came from absolutely nothing at all. It simply point that life can evolve over time from existing life which is quite obvious. All you have to do is look around you at examples in life. Examples such as pennicilin and other antibiotics and their neccessity. Viruses routinely evolve into different variants to overcome mans drugs which try to kill them off.

So, laugh all they want but they have not proven the key tennant of radical evolutionist belief - which is that life came from nothing at all all due to chance.

Nobody has proven this to be the case and I'm still waiting for it to be done.

I am happy though, that they have found definitive proof that genes can form through circumstance which does further back up everything that has been theorized in the past.




RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/2008 11:28:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, this article does nothing to further sway the idea that life came from absolutely nothing at all. It simply point that life can evolve over time from existing life which is quite obvious.
So in other words, it doesn't prove things that are entirely outside the scope of the theory of evolution?


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 11:32:10 AM , Rating: 5
In simplest terms - yes, it proves what has been theorized for a long time in the general theory or evolution.

This is why I prefaced with 'radical evolutionists,' which are in many ways very similar to religious fundamentalists (which are just as bad).

I did not like, however, the semi-negative spin that article placed on creationists, or at least that is how I took the tone of the writing.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 11:47:32 AM , Rating: 4
I find it humorous that thinking people consider creationists whom have put a great deal of clout behind science, and also thought into the origins of the universe - are a joke.

The fallacy to that is that they fail to realize that neither my belief - nor theirs, has been proven.

Both are highly theoretical and as far as the world is concerned, either one could be proven true at some point - or - both could be proven completely wrong!

For all we both know life on earth was planted here from alien civilizations. *gasp* a Creationist with some semblance of thought acknowledging the possibility of a non-godly source of our life?

We're not all as thoughtless as it might seem. Unfortunately the general perception of us is granted through the narrow-focus that the media and rest of "publicania" portray us in.

I think that free-thought should be the tenant of advanced society and welcome those whom liesurely share other ideas with which we can all choose to either endorse or discard. To niche us all into a general category such as "Creationist" or "Evolutionist" without allowing for sub-diversity such as radical or fundamentalist is a crime.

The reality is there are varying degree of acceptance of either form of idea within their given community.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 11:51:43 AM , Rating: 1
> "The fallacy to that is that they fail to realize that neither my belief - nor theirs, has been proven"

The fallacy in the above sentence is the belief that anything whatsoever in science can be undeniably proven...or that the lack of such incontrovertible proof matters in the least.

The scientific method is what brought us out of the caves...and it requires nothing more than we believe in the preponderance of evidence. Evolution is the most solidly supported theory in the history of science, with more evidence and less contradictory data than even the theory of gravity itself.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 12:04:08 PM , Rating: 2
Without the scientific method the world has nothing.

General Evolution has undeniably been supported without a doubt. I 100% agree with you.

My divergence occurs when radicals begin to suggest the unproven portion which is that life was created from nothing.

They have as much evidence to support that as Creationists have to support their view. That is where we differ.

Please read my idea thoroughly before making as assumption as you did above. I was referencing the radical train of thought, not the general.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MozeeToby on 6/11/2008 12:19:36 PM , Rating: 5
Occams Razor.

We can assume that God stepped in a created life from nothing.

-OR-

We can assume that over Billions of years, on Billions of planets, at least once something weird happened and produced self replicating molecules.

I'm not saying that your belief is wrong, I'm saying that your belief isn't science. Science can only investigate the natural laws of the Universe.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 12:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
I never once placed Science and Religion in the same category. ;)

They are separate and should always be considered separate fields - however, to deny endeavors into either of the two because of this divide is wrong.

Religion is based on faith and Science is based on facts and data.

I think for society to be well-rounded, they must study and attempt to understand both. They don't have to believe in what they read about religion, but they should at least study it as it provides such a tremendous insight into the human mind and how cultures and societies operate.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MozeeToby on 6/11/2008 12:44:18 PM , Rating: 3
I agree that society should be well rounded. Where I disagree is where you equation the study of life's origins with creationism.

As you said, religion and science are seperate entities and need not tread on one another. When you equate creationism to abiogenisis you are either moving religion over (not down, over ) into science, or vice versa.

The study of Abiogenisis is clearly not religion. Studies have been done both in the lab, in the field, and with telescopes looking at the steller neighborhood. Likewise, creationism is clearly not science. It is irrefutable (even if we understand it completely it is still possible to say God did it), and unresearchable.

It is important to think about the existance (or non-existance) of God and what effect that would and should have on our lives. I choose to believe in God not because of evidence I see (because, quite frankly, I don't see any) but because of what I feel and think.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By feraltoad on 6/16/2008 5:35:48 AM , Rating: 1
Perhaps we should also pause daily to consider the profound effects that Unicorns have had on our lives. I choose to believe in Unicorns not because of evidence I see but because of what I feel and think.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Dentist on 6/25/2008 1:22:01 AM , Rating: 2
Scientists should ask the question: what could have caused the result?

1. Bacteria possess many genes coding for different enzymes. Enzymes are proteins with different shapes. A simple point mutation of a gene can change one or more amino-acids in the protein, possibly changing the shape of the active part of the enzyme. This may make the enzyme able to process some chemical but unable to process another. For example various known mutations in hemoglobin exist, resulting in sickle cell, thalassemia, etc. Yet a new gene has not appeared, rather an old one has been altered.
Q. Could a single mutation of a single gene cause E coli to develop the ability to use citrate in the culture medium? Yes. This has been known and published since 1983.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcg...
Is this 'evolution'? No.
"E.coli possesses all of the enzymes necessary for citrate metabilism since citrate is a substrate in the tricarboxylic acid cycle, the major metabilic pathway of aerobically growing cells. Therefore the inability to transport citrate seemed likely to be the major barrier to the utilization of citrate by E.coli. This study characterized the citrate transport systems of plasmid-conferred and chromosome-conferred citrate utilization in E. Coli."

Furthermore, the dailytech article is incorrect in asserting that evolution conferred on E coli 'an entirely new gene able to process citrate' since the authors of the study assert, "That meant the "citrate-plus" trait must have been something special – either it was a single mutation of an unusually improbable sort, a rare chromosome inversion, say, or else gaining the ability to use citrate required the accumulation of several mutations in sequence.'

2. Bacteria are known to pass genetic information via plasmids even between species. In other words, expose a bacteria penicillin-susceptible to one that is penicillin-resistant and the penicillin-susceptible bacteria may become resistant.
Q. Could the test samples have been contaminated by bacteria that can process citrate? Then it would not be evolution, but plasmid transfer.

3. Science involves being able to duplicate the results.
Q. The authors of this 'evolutionary breakthrough' study duplicated the results with cultures after but not before generation 20,000.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-b...
Clearly after generation 20,000 all the genetic material to be able to process citrate is already there, requiring only a simple random mutation to activate the gene.
Strangely by going back 500 generations they were not able to proceed randomly to the same mutated gene. What happened back at generation 20,000 to produce the genetic material? "Lenski and his colleagues are now working to identify just what that earlier change was, and how it made the Cit+ mutation possible more than 10,000 generations later."

Really? They don't know what it was but they know it is evolution? Very nice science!!!

4. Gene sequencing.
Q. Why have not the authors indicated exactly what gene changed in what way? Is it because it was a simple point mutation as above, or plasmid conferred property. If they have tens of thousands of cultures, why have they not performed proper tests to indicate what actually happened?

Oh wait, "To find out which, Lenski turned to his freezer, where he had saved samples of each population every 500 generations. These allowed him to replay history from any starting point he chose, by reviving the bacteria and letting evolution "replay" again."

But it does not seem that they are actually checking to see how what genes changed. No need, since they have already identified it as evolution. Break it up now. No more to see here.

_____

The study referred to in this article does not appear to be science. It is just a forum to proclaim the authors religion. Evolution.

Frankly, it demands more faith to accept evolution, than to accept creation. Science identifies anything that occurs with p<0.05 (less than 1 in 20 chance) as being not happening spontaneously.

For example, amino acids and fats cannot develop in the presence of oxygen. They must be compartmentalized. Let's say there is only a 1 in 1 million chance of an amino acid developing in such an environment (and it will be randomly broken up very quickly too). By compartmentalizing elements and the reaction products, scientists have been able to produce select types of molecues. Could the molecules develop spontaneously? No. How did this 1 in 1000000 (1 followed by 6 0s) chance happen, by outside input: the scientists compartmentalized the reaction.

The big bang, etc, theories assume that things that cannot happen spontaneously (1 in 1 followed by millions of 0s) would happen randomly over long ages. These cannot be true science, since true science would tell us that such occurrences could not happen spontaneously/randomly. Then how? Only by outside input. What outside input could caused the development of anything? Intelligent design. Oops. Politically incorrect. Big bang and evolution is still not science per se. They are evolutionary religion using scientific language.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/11/2008 3:50:37 PM , Rating: 1
I believe in evolution and think MrBlastman is fundamentally wrong.

Still MrBlastman comes whit reasonable arguments to defend his point of view, imho wrong but still reasonable and he is open to argument.

PLEASE DONT USE THE RATING SYSTEM TO PUT HIM BELOW +1

The rating system is not a tool, to use to win a argument its a tool for getting writ of idiots that cant make a valid argument


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/08, Rating: 0
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/11/2008 4:50:11 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that his post docent warrant a 5 but just a 1, still i believe if you vote someones argument completely away you also vote away the dialogue you having whit that person, and the opportunity to get him to see your side and win him over.

Its the same as just saying "you are wrong",
ore saying "i see what your saying but i think you are wrong because ...."
imho the second is better


By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 4:56:39 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree. In my opinion, voting a post to -1 should be reserved for personal attacks and the "BOOBIES R0XX0R!" types of posts, and not for those attempting to engage in honest dialogue.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 6:19:38 PM , Rating: 2
I never said anything in malice and I think my point is valid. I fully understand what I am talking about.

Abiogensis is no more closer to truth these days as is the Bible proof-wise.

Period.

Both have points that support them, but both have many holes left to be filled with lots of questions remaining. At any point either could be proven or disproven.

How is that an ignorant opinion? Neither of them can be proved correct or wrong at this point and both are either faith or theory, nothing more. It is based on facts that we know currently.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/12/08, Rating: 0
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/12/2008 4:29:42 AM , Rating: 2
I wrote this wrong it should say:
Guise what, scientist don't use the bible as guide for whats true ore not, they follow the evidence and only the evidence.

I believe the fundamental problem is that people that believe that genesis is true and the word of god is.

Is that, to accept science behind evolution is to accept there is a fundamental flaw in the bible.
This would then also mean that if a fundamental peace of the bible is not true what about the rest then?
This is just as difficult as when people had to accept the Earth wasn't flat ore the center of the universe.

This was in the old days so hard to accept that people got burned to the stake ore baned out of society (Galileo)

I understand to give up genesis as being completely accurate is like giving up on a all loving God is something very hard and for a lot of people even impossible to do.

Ass a atheist i don't believe in god so its not hard for me to accept these conclusions.
Even do i don't believe there is a God i cant say whit 100% certainty that there is not one, only that for me its really unlikely there is one.
But if believe there was one i would believe that the bible is written by people and they could have gotten it wrong.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Jellodyne on 6/13/2008 12:29:55 PM , Rating: 2
Can they be seperate? The reasone this topic is so controversial is that prior to Darwin, the creation of all life was entirely religion's turf. Science had no answers. But now you've got two alternate views of how life arose one Earth, one based on facts and data, and one based on... well just trust me, right? Anyway, now science and religion both are in the business of answering that question so they ARE in the same category, at least as far as this topic is concerned.

As for the point of the article, duh. You can argue a creationism as far as an event that happened at one point, but you'd have to some kind of idiot to not see that evolution as ongoing process as far as how things work now, post whatever magical creation process you subsribe to. Mankind has 'evolved' many species on the planet in our recoded history. You think 'corn' had footlong ears in the garden of eden? You think cows 6,000 years ago had udders so large as to make it difficut to move? You think there was even something we'd recongise as a cow? There's all sorts of documented cases of both natural selection and specific human UNnatural selection affecting the genetic makup aka evolution of of hundreds of plants and animals, I don't get what this one ecoli study brings to the table thats new.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MatthiasF on 6/11/2008 12:33:15 PM , Rating: 3
Religion was hastily pushed to the edge of a cliff over the last several millenia. As Science explained more, there needed less Gods to command the previously unexplained forces around us and the religious has less to give credit to what gods were left.

The origin of life itself is the last inch of the cliff. Since science cannot easily observe the origin of life, it is outside it's domain and the religious know this.

The argument will never be settled accurately until humanity has watched a barren planet spawn life without intervention and it's completely recorded, which by some scientific views would be an oxymoron.

So, for the next several hundred thousand years, we'll just have to put up with the now thankfully fringe element of our society that can't release the supernatural from their lives.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By mikefarinha on 6/11/2008 2:43:44 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So, for the next several hundred thousand years, we'll just have to put up with the now thankfully fringe element of our society that can't release the supernatural from their lives.


The whole debate can be summed up as the inexplicable difference between asking the 'why' and 'how' of our existence.

Science never has and never will be able to answer 'Why we are here? What is our purpose?' Science can only attempt answer how we came about.

As a fun exercise you can do a kind of reverse-Descartes and ask the question 'Through evolution, what is the purpose of being able to envision a higher power?'


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/2008 4:18:08 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
As a fun exercise you can do a kind of reverse-Descartes and ask the question 'Through evolution, what is the purpose of being able to envision a higher power?'
Because it's a side effect of the ability to do abstract thinking. It also helps with facilitating social bonds.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Wolfpup on 6/11/2008 3:37:41 PM , Rating: 2
What's ironic is that for people who want to demand that God did a certain thing instead of a natural principle, it "disproves" the existence of God once the natural principle is worked out.

I'm personally...not sure where I stand. I realize that we may just have evolved to have religious feelings for whatever reason, and that there may be nothing more to it than that. Even still, it's obviously not possible to disprove the existence of God, really, and I still find myself praying from time to time...I still kind of believe...still kind of WANT to believe sometimes (ironically I think my belief means more than these people who's beliefs are just based on magical thoughts and make believe that we can disprove through observation).


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By TestKing123 on 6/11/2008 12:42:54 PM , Rating: 2
Someone needs to look up the definition of Occam's Razor and how it's applied, rather than applying YOUR misconception.

By Occams Razor, the 2nd choice above would apply (self replicating molecules).


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MozeeToby on 6/11/2008 12:52:37 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, that was the point, sorry that wasn't clear but I thought in the context of his earlier post that it was.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Wolfpup on 6/11/2008 3:32:20 PM , Rating: 2
I wish I had links, but actually we DO now have what looks like it could be the very early stages of life. I can't remember the exact details (I think I read it in Scientific American), but basically it's along the lines of RNA spontaneously forming with a barrier wall...and to me it's not a big stretch to think that if that happens enough, sooner or later one of them may accidentally take on other traits needed to become self replicating.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 6/11/2008 7:38:48 PM , Rating: 4
God did not step in. He created it all. Stars, planets, everything..... Including the material to make life.

Time is meaningless to God - he is currently at the start of time and at the end of time and all point between. Something modern scientist are starting to research (ribbon time travel I think is what they are calling it). Science does not dis-prove God. In most cases it would/does show how he caused such things to happen or be created.

Time seems to be a big hang up for some... 7 day creation. The Jewish word for day, yes was used to talk about a 24 hour day, but it could also be used to talked about 10 years, 1000 years, 7 day ... any length of time. So, if you take away the metal thought of 7 days out of your head and re-read the first page or two of genesis. Read it as if you were standing on the Earth on day 0. Watching from some mountain top and seeing the environment change around you. Then read about how science says this Earth we live on started and changed through out time. It may creep you out on how they really are the same.
Example: On the third day he made the stars appear in the sky. --
He made all the planets, stars on the first day, but for days one, two and part of three you could not look up into the sky and see the stars like today. Clouds and such would block the way....Today we would say, the atmosphere was to thick to see off the planet....much like Venus (I believe that planets gas are to thick to see the ground, or at least very difficult). Well science claims the atmosphere was very thick on earth in the early days.....

If nothing else after you read the first page of Genesis ask your self this: How could a guy from 6,000 year ago write about the creation of the earth, planet, animals, humans (the order things appear on the planet and such) and be so close to what are modern day science is just now discovering? He could not even cook pork without getting sick, but he knew first there was a bright light – an explosion causes light (your big bang), knew early days of earth you could not see into space. Ask yourself how is this possible?


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By therealnickdanger on 6/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 6/12/2008 12:14:21 PM , Rating: 4
Incorrect. the mordern word for day in Hebrew is used to define a dusk to dusk.... Not orginal word used for the word day in the Bible. Translation and words meanings change over time.
For you second part....Again need to stop thinking about our 24 hour day being the same length of time to God day... It's silly to think that...He does not live on Earth he suppose to be everywhere not just Earth, time has no meaning to him.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By feraltoad on 6/16/2008 6:01:32 AM , Rating: 2
If your comment is satire I apologize. Genesis describes the creation of our world, and describes it in simple terms that don't really explain anything. "It was dark, then it was light", wow. There are all kinds of creation myths from around the world, and the bible borrows from some of those. Remember, they didn't even know what the sun was, or where the earth was in relation to anything. They didn't know what a planet was, or understand the atmosphere. They certainly had no idea what stars were. The bible was written by multiple people at different times. As for foresight of the bible, your just gerrymandering vague references; cobbling together anything that might fit. Doing that you could find prophecy in the coupon section of your local newspaper. "Wow, the earth is 4.3 billion years old. 4 for the major geologic eras, and 3 for when the minor geologic periods are divided by 4. Oh wait, 4+3=7! Coincidence!? Yeah , right. Wow, it's easy to see I'm crazy."


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By cochy on 6/11/2008 12:24:02 PM , Rating: 2
Life wasn't created from nothing.

As Carl Sagan would say: We are the result of the evolution of Hydrogen and Helium atoms over the course of 13 billion years.

That's where life and everything else ultimately comes from.


By therealnickdanger on 6/12/2008 11:01:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Life wasn't created from nothing.

It sure wasn't!

Sagan is correct: Genesis chapter 1 clearly describes all life on the planet's surface coming forth "from the earth". From dust do we come, to dust do we go.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By KernD on 6/11/2008 12:48:00 PM , Rating: 4
The creation of life can be explained by one great constant of the universe, the "rise of complexity". Due to all the natural forces at work in the universe, all things tend to group together to form new, more complex creation.

The creation of life has been reproduced in a lab to some extent. we know what compose a cell, what compose DNA, what compose Amino-Acid. And we know natural forces gets things together.

If you think that life couldn't just have evolved from complex molecules, then what makes you think a god can exist without a maker? Who created your creator? Who invented god?

the answer is men.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Suntan on 6/11/2008 2:07:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The creation of life can be explained by one great constant of the universe, the "rise of complexity". Due to all the natural forces at work in the universe, all things tend to group together to form new, more complex creation.


Actually, no. The laws of thermodynamics clearly state that all things in the universe tend towards disorder, which as hard as it is to make the inference, means uniformity throughout the universe.

Feel free to google for “Entropy” or even “Heat Death of the Universe” if you don’t believe it. Might I just suggest you look at some of the technically credible articles on the subject instead of the knee jerk pop-culture “wikipedia” link that I am sure will be at the top of the ranking.

-Suntan


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 4:04:59 PM , Rating: 2
> "Actually, no. The laws of thermodynamics clearly state that all things in the universe tend towards disorder...Feel free to google for Entropy..."

This isn't correct at all. ANL has an excellent low-level discussion on entropy and self-assembly. To quote from the beginning:

quote:
This misunderstanding has several origins. The first misunderstanding is that processes that result in a decrease in entropy cannot occur. This is an incorrect statement of the Second Law . Every time water freezes the entropy of the transition of water to ice decreases...
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mats05/mats0...


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Suntan on 6/11/2008 5:27:56 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I’m fully aware that processes can be done which result in lower entropy depending on where you would like to draw the boundary conditions. I did not say that a reduction of entropy *can not* occur within a closed system. I’ve spent my entire career designing and building equipment that does just that.

My response was to a post where someone stated something to the effect that all processes in the universe *tend* towards complexity. This is incorrect as these very processes *tend* towards uniformity.

Next time take a moment to soak in the overall topic being discussed before racing off to find any article online that will “disprove” what you think someone else’s post says.

And while you are pondering *your* incorrectness, take a moment to think about where that heat energy that is being taken out of the water/ice is going… …along with the energy needed to facilitate the process…

-Suntan


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 5:47:22 PM , Rating: 2
> "My response was to a post where someone stated something to the effect that all processes in the universe *tend* towards complexity. This is incorrect "

Yes it is. And your rebuttal, which stated, and I quote, "the laws of thermodynamics clearly state that all things in the universe tend towards disorder" is equally incorrect.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Suntan on 6/11/2008 8:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
You have no fundamental grasp of the actual workings of this topic. The sentence you quoted me on is basically the driving force of the universe.

Your little "sound bite" that you linked to is only valid if you choose to specifically overlook the system as a whole and only look at a specific boundary of events. That does not change the fact that the universe tends towards disorder.

If you would prefer to believe that what I wrote was incorrect, that is fine. If you would take the time to read and comprehend that article you linked to, you would see that it reluctantly admits to the same thing, (even though it is obvious from the tone of the article that the author is trying to insinuate that they know more about physics than the rest of the scientific community). Instead you would rather cling to whatever self delusional thoughts you have *just so that you can think you are right*.

Goo luck with that.

-Suntan


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 11:27:45 PM , Rating: 2
> "it is obvious from the tone of the article that the author is trying to insinuate that they know more about physics than the rest of the scientific community"

So now its not only myself that is wrong, but the author of that piece? (who has a Ph.D. in physics, by the way)

> "That does not change the fact that the universe tends towards disorder."

The universe as a whole, yes. But not every system within it. That is the crucial distinction your earlier remark failed to capture.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/12/2008 5:09:25 AM , Rating: 2
So now its not only myself that is wrong, but the author of that piece? (who has a PhD. in physics, by the way)
Having PhD. doesn't make him more wrong ore right it just says he got more knowledge about the subject.

As history has proven even Einstein was wrong on some parts.
Same was going on whit the proof of expanding and static universe, till Hubble proofed the universe was expanding both arguments ware equal and valid arguments.

I have to to say Michael even do I think your a smart guy you think to often what your thinking is right, "so its is right" and don't wane see other peoples argument ore side.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By zzebi on 6/11/2008 12:14:27 PM , Rating: 2
The scientific method is not that old. Random "trial and error" and religious "belief-based reasoning" preceded it.
Trial and error however can be regarded as the very earliest, primitive form of scientific method.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Wolfpup on 6/11/2008 3:41:25 PM , Rating: 2
One might even say it evolved from it :D

Or...maybe God had to step in and create the scientific method from scratch. Yeah, that's probably it

(Sorry! :D )


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By feraltoad on 6/16/2008 6:15:22 AM , Rating: 2
"belief-based reasoning"

lol

"Hey don't do dat!"
"Why not?"
"I don't know, just don't 'cause I said so."
"Why?"
"'Cause it's written down not to do it"
"Who wrote it? Did you write it!?"
"No...This guy...in the sky wrote it. He'll be mad if you do it"
"Hey, you can't even read!"
"Yeah I know, stupid. But this guy told me about it."
"OK, I won't do it so the guy in the sky won't be mad at me. OK, put down that rock. Put it down, I'm not gonna do it."


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By TheDoc9 on 6/11/2008 3:28:30 PM , Rating: 2
How is there more evidence than the law of gravity? I've never seen any evidence for the theory.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Wolfpup on 6/11/2008 3:55:24 PM , Rating: 2
Are you talking about Evolution? There's all kinds of evidence for it, obviously. Something doesn't get to be a scientific theory without a ton of research and evidence backing it up. (And just FYI for anyone who doesn't know, a scientific theory is *NOT* a "hunch" or a "guess" or something as the word "theory" is perhaps commonly used in everyday speech.)


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By feraltoad on 6/16/2008 6:18:57 AM , Rating: 2
You can trust your crazy "theories" on evolution and gravity. I'll keep sleeping with my sister (who is NOT a monkey) and my money stays put; invested in glue and tape.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By borismkv on 6/11/2008 12:04:56 PM , Rating: 1
How about militant atheist? Even if someone gave you hard evidence of a supreme being you wouldn't believe it because you don't want to. Even if God came down and beat you on the head, you'd find some way to convince yourself it didn't happen. Why aren't you honest with yourself?

What's really funny about your statement of requiring proof is that you entirely miss the function and capabilities of scientific experimentation. Science can't prove anything. Experimentation either supports a hypothesis or it doesn't. Further experimentation that supports a supported hypothesis still doesn't prove the hypothesis to be correct. As time goes on and we learn more about the universe, everything we know today will eventually be comparable to the understanding of Aristotle.

Now, I'm a firm believer that creationism would be a great bane to scientific progress, mostly because of its willingness to attribute all unknowns to divine intervention and its stiff interpretation of scripture. But your own views would be just as much of a bane to real science, as stubborn grasping of existing scientific theory would halt the advance of science, much the same way as religious persecution slowed the advance of Galileo's more accurate view of the universe. The best scientists in the world are the ones that realize that we don't know everything about the universe yet, and that what we do know is very likely completely wrong. After all, our current sphere of direct observation is unbelievably minuscule compared to the universe at large.

As for you being a "thinking person"...well, I refuse to believe that until I see some hard proof.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/2008 12:17:39 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Even if someone gave you hard evidence of a supreme being you wouldn't believe it because you don't want to.
And you base this on what? If you have some evidence, I'd like to see it.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By derwin on 6/11/2008 12:37:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If you have some evidence, I'd like to see it.


Ditto.

And borishmev (sp? sorry) and MrBlastman, the problem I think everyone here keeps having with what you guys are saying is that you keep using ISMs and ISTs. What the f is an evolutionist? Maybe you are talking about your drugged up high school friends, but for the most part, people who consider the idea of evolution are not "evolutionists." These people do not cling dearly to the idea of evolution as if it were some god. They would happily relinquish it were the preponderance of evidence to suggest otherwise. The problem is that the evidence goes the other way. It supports evolution. Such people who accept this evidence are often cited as feverantly holding to their "evolutionist" "beliefs..."

Just the same as you said you wished to remain in a free thinking atmosphere, as do we, and ISMs and ISTs are labels of unthought and unchangable beliefs. Just as you really have shown your self not to be a creationIST, do not label others as evolutionISTs. You wanted to have a discusion on grounds that are much more along the lines of philosophy than they are of technology - hence the confused people thinking you were making a strike at evolution.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 12:48:37 PM , Rating: 2
I wholly said I support the theory of evolution in my first post.

I suppose my problem is that people don't fully read, word-for-word what is written. I had used 'radical' to separate general from specialized but apparently that was not enough and instead of should have placed abiogenesis in my first post.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By borismkv on 6/11/2008 4:13:11 PM , Rating: 3
I'd like to see your evidence to the contrary. Welcome to the 2 way street.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By mikefarinha on 6/11/2008 2:47:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even if someone gave you hard evidence of a supreme being you wouldn't believe it because you don't want to.


If someone gave me 'hard evidence' of God... I'd stop believing... :P


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MozeeToby on 6/11/2008 1:25:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Well I happen to be a radical non-unicornist. I won't believe in unicorns until I see some hard proof.
I guess you didn't hear the news then...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25097986/


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By BMFPitt on 6/11/2008 2:30:00 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. That's really freaky timing.

OK then, I now believe in unicorns. See how this whole non-faith-based system of belief works?


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By mezman on 6/11/2008 2:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
Damn, you beat me to it. :)


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By MrBlastman on 6/11/2008 2:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well I happen to be a radical non-unicornist. I won't believe in unicorns until I see some hard proof.


Talk about irony... A Unicorn has been found!

This article came out today of all days.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365629,00.html

;)


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 6/11/2008 5:03:46 PM , Rating: 2
Here is your unicorn my friend. Creationists understand freaks of nature have happened all the time and will continue to happen.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365629,00.html

creationists also understand that creatures can change over time, have in the past and will in the future. However, to each his own. That is elephant will not become mouse nor will mouse become tiger nor monkey or ape into a man. Thousand of years went into this thinking not just a hundred or so. Disagree?? OK were is the “missing link”? I know the answer....It's in your head.

"It's not the article's fault that creationists (especially the kind that use phrases like "radical evolutionists") are a joke to thinking people."
Funny you should say that...Since most of the greatest known thinking schools world wide are "creationist" founded (Bible founded)...Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, Brown just to list the first few that come to mind, the list is several thousand long....

Now there are a few people who go off the deep end on both side. To say I'm wrong on that fact, is to admit you are foolish...everything has an extreme side, only a non-educated person would disagree with this. So eliminate the extreme cases and you will find that average creationist has study as much if not more about evolution then the average evolutionists. The creationist that has truly study the Bible hard can see how the two fit together perfectly. No, do not study the kiddie books on how God is about love, peace, and doves; this will not get you even close. I'm talking about studying the Bible were God kills when it servers him right and promises some very unpleasant things for mankind, and tells man how the universe was created from the point of view as if you were alive standing on Earth watching it all unfold. So far nothing that is stated in the Bible can be dis-proven. (NOTHING!). Millions have tried, zero have done it. True, you can not prove everything that is in the Bible, but that is different then dis-proving it. At one point in history we could not prove man could figure out how to fly, but it did not dis-prove man ability to fly. -- So the average creationist has study both sides deeply; yet if you talk to the average evolutionists, they tend to only study one side and guess the other side (or think the fews years they were between ages 7 and 9 they learned all they needed to know about the Bible). It's very funny to hear you say the evolutionists side is the thinking side, when normally they've only done half the research.

Think about this.... We claim cloning is a new science... Well it's one of the oldest things preformed to a creationist. First done? God took out one of Adam ribs (bone best place for DNA). He used this rib to make Eve. Not only can he clone but he could change the sex of the clone. The Bible is full of little things like this that normal man will not understand but as soon as mans knowledge of science catches up to what happens in the Bible, the Bible makes even more sense then before...because we can now understand what has happened and why.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/08, Rating: 0
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 6/11/2008 6:32:48 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/guide/intro/index.html

Harvard College was established in 1636 by vote of the Great and General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and was named for its first benefactor, John Harvard of Charlestown, a young minister who, upon his death in 1638, left his library and half his estate to the new institution. Harvard's first scholarship fund was created in 1643 with a gift from Ann Radcliffe, Lady Mowlson.

The school is name after a young minister. How much more to you want Christians to help found the school? The pilgrims were Christians too.

I believe in the Bible... purgatory is not talked about in the Bible. Some Christian do not follow the Bible as close as others, they say some different things. Yes, to an outsider this can be very confusing...As Christian we know -only God knows who is saved (we are not to judge who is saved - can judge bad and good, just not saved.) So, when some one ask a question about Christian, if the answer is not from the Bible (meaning they should be able to point you to an area of the Bible that talks about the subject they are explaining (Internet makes this easy) and not going to an outside source) they are probably off base and are giving you their view and not a Christian view.
The truth. There are too many people who claim to be Christian, but have never studied the Bible. They have spent more time reading the Sunday comic strips in one year then they have spend in their entire life reading the Bible (I was one). It's usually the comic strip reading ones that tries to explain the Bible to someone and screws it all up, because they have the "Hollywood" edition in the heads not the Bible edition. Like anything out there, there are good sources that give an accurate description and there are bad sources....Christianity has had 2000+ years to pick up a lot of bad crap. Look in the Bible, if it's not there, it's not Biblical - therefor not important to a Christian (as far as being saved). Purgatory is not talked about, therefor it is not important to me to know to be saved. Is it real or not, I don't know...I would say no. There is nothing in the Bible to lead me to say yes.


By phattyboombatty on 6/11/2008 6:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a high likelihood that the men responsible for the formation of Harvard were Puritans. It's undisputed that the early years of Harvard had a large Christian influence.

Also, I was under the impression that the original origins of Oxford, especially the original founders, are unknown.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Reclaimer77 on 6/11/2008 6:52:56 PM , Rating: 5
Masher how far are you going to keep this going ?

I respect you a lot, and your a great debater here, but some things won't be solved on DT and you know it. Just let people believe what they want to believe. Its not hurting anyone.

Its going to take a lot more then E.Coli mutating to prove to Christians there is no god you know.


By Seemonkeyscanfly on 6/11/2008 7:02:24 PM , Rating: 2
Especially since God is the creator of mutation. :)


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By masher2 (blog) on 6/11/2008 11:31:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I respect you a lot, and your a great debater here, but some things won't be solved on DT and you know it. Just let people believe what they want to believe. Its not hurting anyone.
Certainly...and for that reason, you'll never see me on a religious website, attempting to convert any believers there. However, if on a science and technology website, a "believer" posts a challenge to evolution, they should expect to have their remarks rebutted.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Reclaimer77 on 6/12/2008 1:40:38 AM , Rating: 5
That only came up because the author deliberately used the opening 2.5 paragraphs of the article to troll these people and use this experiment to directly challenge their beliefs. Its very blatant. Its only natural for people to rise to challenges. Lets be honest, they were put on the defensive.

Yes, this IS a science website. Your right. So why was a fifth of the article dedicated to basically flame baiting religious types ? Thats what I don't get. What could have been a decent discussion about the actual experiment, is now just a back and forth nukefest of two unshakable faiths.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By michael67 on 6/13/2008 4:34:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Certainly...and for that reason, you'll never see me on a religious website, attempting to convert any believers there. However, if on a science and technology website, a "believer" posts a challenge to evolution, they should expect to have their remarks rebutted.

I very often disagree whit masher, but ID is just bad science and hurts development of creative thinking of young minds in general.

99.93% of scientist (of white 67% are christians) in any type of science believe that evolution in general is true and a fact.
Why its still called a theory is because not every thing is discovered doesnt mean the theory is false.

Its like a theories about volcanoes we now how they work in general.
pressure pushes lava to the surface ware depending on how heavy the pressure on the cork is how violent it will explode.
Not understanding completely how volcanoes works doesnt make the general theory about it falls

Because if I would follow the same reasoning ID is following on evolution
God decided its now time for the volcano to erupted so it happened.
If I say that, no one can prove me wrong, and it even doesnt mater how mouths prove they come whit, I still could say, no that not true God decided it was time so it happened.
Just prove me wrong! can you? no, but is it science I think not!


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By karkas on 6/13/2008 7:14:18 PM , Rating: 1
I am an agnostic/atheist, and think there are just as many "non-thinking" atheists out there.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By borismkv on 6/11/2008 11:38:25 AM , Rating: 3
Eh. Mick is incapable of writing without bias. He's one of those journalists who thinks that everyone else in the world is stupid because they don't think the same things he does, and it is therefor his duty to beat people on the head with said "truth" until they get it. The fact that most of his beliefs are unsupported by reality and much of his writing is blatant plagiarism isn't so important to him, I think. He likes writing propaganda.


By JasonMick (blog) on 6/11/2008 11:45:04 AM , Rating: 2
How did you discover that it was I secretly funded the evolution research??!? Darn, you're onto me.

Got to build some solar panels for my escape. Here quick let me draw up my specs on my Macbook Air (literally made out of air since it doesnt exist).


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By Proteusza on 6/11/2008 12:07:00 PM , Rating: 2
Although sometimes I disagree with Jason Mick's writing, in this case the only people who still think evolution is an evil invention are fundamentalist Christians living in the US. Everyone else accepts that its true, given how its been proved so thoroughly.

Its also used as the basis for a lot of modern biological science.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By derwin on 6/11/2008 12:42:06 PM , Rating: 2
In all fairness, the article does take a harshly condesending tone towards those who would disagree with the conclusions drawn from it. There is no need for such a tone; the evidence and the story speak for themselves.

I don't know about those blasts about plagarism... to be fair to him I think you had ought to document such a claim as that or recant.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By omnicronx on 6/11/2008 12:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He's one of those journalists who thinks that everyone else in the world is stupid because they don't think the same things he does, and it is therefor his duty to beat people on the head with said "truth" until they get it.
Ha, because all journalists write with an open mind, taking every view into perspective.... <caugh> Everything you hear in the media is someones point of view, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. One could even argue that history itself is somebodys point of view, seldom do you hear the view of those that lost the war, or those that were defeated in battle.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By ImSpartacus on 6/11/2008 12:06:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
In simplest terms - yes, it proves what has been theorized for a long time in the general theory or evolution.


There you go. Evolution is proved by evidence supporting evolution . Imagine that.

Evolution does not theorize how life began. End of story.

There's no "Well, radical evolutionists believe life came from nothing, blah blah blah." Evolution does not theorize how life began.


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By jlips6 on 6/11/2008 11:29:15 AM , Rating: 2
*pauses in mid-fling*
Oh thanks a bunch. what the hell am I supposed to do with all this mud now?
;)


RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By JasonMick (blog) on 6/11/08, Rating: 0
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By borismkv on 6/11/08, Rating: 0
RE: A less-biased opinion... ;)
By