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CODA EV
Another one bites the dust...

It's no secret that automotive manufacturers making only electric cars are having a very difficult time in the current automotive market. The problem is that most consumers simply aren't ready to purchase electric automobiles due to range anxiety and the typically higher cost upfront to purchase an electric vehicle.

Recently, there've been some high-profile problems in the green electric car market, such as the failure of Fisker. Electric carmaker Coda has now filed for bankruptcy. Coda could be a company you've never even heard of, it's a manufacturer of electric cars built in China that has only sold 100 units since it was founded in 2012.
 
Coda Holdings, the auto manufacturer's parent company, filed for bankruptcy protection on Wednesday in Delaware. Coda hopes to sell its assets to a publicly traded private equity group called Fortress Investment Group. The price tipped for the sale is $25 million. Coda currently lists assets worth $50 million with the debt of $100 million.

"After concluding a comprehensive review of our strategic options, the Board of Directors, management team and senior lending group have concluded that focusing on the Company's energy storage business presents the best opportunity moving forward," said Phil Murtaugh , Chief Executive Officer, CODA Holdings, Inc.  "We believe the restructuring process that we have entered into today will enable the Company to complete a sale and confirm a Plan that maximizes the value of its assets, serving the best interests of our stakeholders."

Coda certainly isn't as high-profile as Fisker and unlike Fisker, Coda didn't receive any government loans. Coda was on shaky ground to begin with producing cars with looks of decades past constructed in China with electric powertrains installed in California.

"Focusing on the company's energy storage business presents the best opportunity moving forward," said Phil Murtaugh, CEO of Coda Holdings. "We believe the restructuring process that we have entered into today will enable the company to complete a sale and confirm a plan that maximizes the value of its assets, serving the best interests of our stakeholders."

Source: USA Today





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FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 11:14:21 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The problem is that most consumers simply aren't ready to make the disconnect with reality necessary to purchase an electric vehicle.




RE: FIFY
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 11:16:27 AM , Rating: 5
If the price was right, an EV would make total sense for my wife. She works 5 miles from home and rarely travels more than 30 miles or so roundtrip when running errands during the week.

We would still need a gas-powered vehicle for longer trips, but I can totally see her rocking something like a Leaf.


RE: FIFY
By Mitch101 on 5/2/2013 11:30:16 AM , Rating: 2
I agree but I think in order to make the most of it you need a longer commute.

5 miles a day your not saving much on gas because your not using any. Thats like 2 gallons a week or 100 gallons a year lets say $350.00 a year in gas. Maybe 1 car payment.

If we can go 50 miles a day (25 each way) assuming the alternative car gets 30mpg on gas thats like saving $1450.00 a year in gas. Thats like 4 car payments.

I didn't go into saving the planet because the electricity comes from somewhere.


RE: FIFY
By marvdmartian on 5/3/2013 8:07:39 AM , Rating: 2
Not quite that good, but you're close.

My commute is about the same. Adding the occasional trip around town, once or twice a week, and I usually only gas up about once every 4 weeks, having driven ~300 miles, on average. Usually comes out to ~12 gallons of gas.

Over a years time, comes out closer to 150 gallons of gas.

However, even at $3/gallon (which we haven't seen in a while), that still comes out to $450/year. How much would it cost to charge the batteries on an electric car, over the same period of time?? I'm currently paying 9-cents a KwHr for electricity, but could make it even cheaper if I'd gone for a shorter-term agreement with the electric company.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 11:38:56 AM , Rating: 2
How many miles does she drive per year?

The Leaf already make sense economically for typical mileages, as long as the range isn't a problem, but if she's only doing 5000 miles/yr then it's kind of a waste to build that big battery but save less than half the gas its capable of doing.

But on the subject of price, the Leaf is $9k less than this CODA, and from a reputable carmaker, so it's no wonder that the CODA was a sales flop.


RE: FIFY
By GulWestfale on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 12:41:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
zero environmental benefits (manufacturing of a prius has shown to negate any emissions advantages it has over a conventional car;
That's a myth. Over the lifetime of the car there are big emission savings.
quote:
plus the electricity has to come from a power plant)
All new marginal generation to meet this demand will come from natural gas or renewables. They're far cleaner than the combustion engine, and these lower direct/indirect emissions are breathed in by far fewer people since they're generated away from population centers.


RE: FIFY
By GulWestfale on 5/2/2013 12:45:06 PM , Rating: 1
it's not a myth.
also, away from population centers doesn't mean away from the atmosphere we all breathe, does it??


RE: FIFY
By lelias2k on 5/2/2013 1:51:33 PM , Rating: 3
Source?


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: FIFY
By bitterman0 on 5/2/2013 6:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes it is. First link on google, with sources:


Not quite accurate. The article assumes that during the first 160k miles the higher environmental impact of manufacturing a hybrid vehicle will be balanced out by lower emissions during regular operation. Alas, that doesn't take into account the fact that no single battery pack will remain fully functional throughout the stated duration of 160k miles, and as a result the hybrid car will require multiple battery pack replacements thus adding significantly to the total environmental impact.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: FIFY
By bitterman0 on 5/3/2013 11:42:50 AM , Rating: 3
Don't you get a feeling sometimes that you're being spoon-fed specifically tailored information instead of being presented reliable data?

You know what? Beyond the anecdotal evidence that some vehicles go on the same battery pack over 300k miles and that by law manufacturers are required to warranty hybrid vehicle battery packs for 8y/100k or 10y/150k (depending on the State of purchase) I couldn't find any real data. None. All articles simply regurgitate the same information without presenting any data over and over again.

Maybe you can help with identifying a reliable source? Like statistics of warranty and non-warranty battery replacements?

As for negating the lifetime savings - again, no data. Toyota, for one, refused to publish any information about their manufacturing and disposal processes' environmental impact. My point, however, was that a battery replacement not only incurs the "environmental cost" of manufacturing a new battery, but also the "environmental cost" of disposal of the defunct battery as well. Either disposing of the defunct battery pack in a landfill, or recycling it has a distinct environmental impact.

Again, there's no such thing as a free lunch.


RE: FIFY
By Philippine Mango on 5/4/2013 12:22:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You know what? Beyond the anecdotal evidence that some vehicles go on the same battery pack over 300k miles and that by law manufacturers are required to warranty hybrid vehicle battery packs for 8y/100k or 10y/150k (depending on the State of purchase) I couldn't find any real data. None. All articles simply regurgitate the same information without presenting any data over and over again. Maybe you can help with identifying a reliable source? Like statistics of warranty and non-warranty battery replacements?

So your argument is that there is no evidence that there AREN'T frequent battery failures so therefore that means that there must be frequent battery failures? That makes no sense. If anything, considering the number of hybrid vehicles on the road and the reliability ratings from consumer reports, I'd say they have a significantly higher reliability rating than you think. I have a friend with a 2005 Prius, 190K miles, original battery. The only company that has had frequent hybrid battery failures is Honda. The problem with you is that you lump all hybrid vehicles together even though reliability is highly dependent on model and manufacturer which is why you're insistent on these hybrid vehicles being unreliable.


RE: FIFY
By StormyKnight on 5/3/2013 3:52:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
new electricity generation is all gas and renewables.

So, there are no new coal-fired plants under construction or planned to be constructed. All new power generation plants are non-coal? Sources please...


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/3/2013 9:51:55 AM , Rating: 2
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_g...

Whether or not new plants are being built isn't the point. They're being outnumbered by those being shuttered, and total output is going down.

It's because shale gas became really cheap, has low pollution, and suffers the least NIMBYism of all viable power sources (though sadly it's still there a bit).


RE: FIFY
By SublimeSimplicity on 5/2/2013 2:24:05 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
plus the electricity has to come from a power plant

That whole long tailpipe thing is a bunch of nonsense. It takes 4-5kWh to refine oil into gasoline. Gasoline refineries use so much power, they have their own power plants. Know what they burn for power? Coal.
A typical BEV can go about 15-20 miles on the electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gasoline. So you want to talk well-to-wheels? A gas car starts 15-20mpg in the hole before we even turn the key on either.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: FIFY
By SublimeSimplicity on 5/2/2013 3:09:38 PM , Rating: 3
I'm not a fan of EVs because of the environmental impact. In my macro view of things, all the carbon atoms that are in the oil in ground were carbon atoms in the the atmosphere at some point.
However, if we're debating cleanliness, I don't see how something other than an BEV could be better. It takes electrons. Where those electrons come from the EV is agnostic to. Could be a 1920s diesel generator or solar, you can't pin that on the car. It outputs propulsion and some heat. If the economy for the resources were there, the battery, motor, etc could be recycled.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 12:14:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We would still need a gas-powered vehicle for longer trips, but I can totally see her rocking something like a Leaf.


...so you buy a $30k electric car for the 10 mile commute your wife does to work every day, and then a $30k gas car for real use.

How many of those 10 mile trips are you going to have to make to account for the $30k gas car you also had to buy? Not to mention the additional upkeep on the additional car...


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 1:17:37 PM , Rating: 2
I decided to do some math, because math is fun.

The cost of the 10-mile commute in a gas car that gets 30 miles per gallon (just to assume you don't necessarily buy a hugely efficient car) is about $1.32, if you assume that gas costs $4 a gallon. Just using easy numbers here.

If you pretend that there are no other costs involved, you'd have to drive the EV to work instead of the ICE car 22,727 times to account for the additional cost of the 2nd car. Or in other words, you'd have to go to work every day for about 62.25 years, with no days off.

Now let's stop pretending that there are no other costs involved. How much is insurance for the 2nd car? In all likelihood, your insurance costs doubled. For the sake of argument, let's say that your insurance cost is $50 a month. If you saved $1.32 in gas every day by driving the EV to work instead of the ICE car, that works out to $39.60 in savings a month. Factor in *just* the extra insurance cost, and now you're losing $10.40 a month. ALREADY having that EV around to "save" you money is actually costing you more to own and use it than it would cost you to own and use only the ICE car.

Maintenance costs on the 2nd car - like tires, brakes, etc.? And of course the electricity to recharge the EV isn't free. It might be cheap...but it's not free. And eventually you're going to need a new battery for it.

So...no. No, there isn't the slightest chance in hell that you can justify having an EV as a second vehicle. No. Way. In. Hell.


RE: FIFY
By lagomorpha on 5/2/2013 1:26:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So...no. No, there isn't the slightest chance in hell that you can justify having an EV as a second vehicle. No. Way. In. Hell.


With a few notable exceptions...

http://www.amazon.com/Prodeco-Technologies-Genesis...


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 1:29:59 PM , Rating: 2
...and I guess just because someone will say "well yeah but what if the daily commute is 75 miles instead of 10?"

- Gas costs in the ICE vehicle: $10/day, $300/month
- Subtract just the additional insurance cost, you're at $250/month

Now you're at a 10-year breakeven period - kind of. Because you still haven't accounted for maintenance costs or anything else...let alone the likelihood you'll still be driving the same EV in 10 years. Make some reasonable assumptions about maintenance and repair costs, let alone electricity, and just jack the 10 years up to whatever else you come up with.

Sure, 10 years is a lot more palatable than 62 years - but it's not necessarily all that much more likely to work out that way.

Unless you actually just simply don't own any vehicles other than the EV (and therefore never really go anywhere...other than to work and back), you can't justify owning one. If you own an EV as a second vehicle, you'd just flat-out kidding yourself if you think you're doing yourself any favors.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 4:59:51 PM , Rating: 2
Where are you getting higher insurance from?
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/po...

But even for $250/mo, how do you get a 10-year breakeven period? That's $30k, which is more than the EV's new cost, and the gas car alternative isn't free either.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 5:23:13 PM , Rating: 2
I said nothing about "higher" insurance cost. I'm using the same $50 for the EV as for the ICE, just to keep things simple.

And yes, 10 years is $30k. Which is the number I was using. I was using $30k as the example cost of both vehicles.

So use whatever numbers you want. While you're at it, assume your ICE car gets 40MPG instead of 30 like I was using.

Doesn't really matter all that much. There's really no way to justify buying an EV as a second car.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
RE: FIFY
By topkill on 5/2/2013 5:43:00 PM , Rating: 2
LMAO...yep, that's EXACTLY what he's doing.

He's comparing and apple to: an apple + an orange!

And his conclusion? The apple + the orange cost more than just an apple! Wow, who'd a thunk it???


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 5:50:26 PM , Rating: 2
...except that the reason I was doing that was because that was the article author's initial comment.

You might want to actually, you know, read what I was responding to first.

My comments have been to show the fallacy of thinking you're going to save money by buying an EV as a 2nd car, and driving it for local stuff instead of just owning the ICE car and using it for everything.

I've already noted that the only way you can justify owning an EV is if it is the one and only vehicle you own. And that you don't intend on ever actually going anywhere.

Reading. You should try it some time.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 6:15:08 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Reading. You should try it some time.
HAHAHAHA maybe you should take your own advice.

How is Brandon's wife supposed to do those 9k miles per year if she doesn't buy an EV? Walk? He's choosing between either an EV or an ICE for the family's second car.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 5:53:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If the price was right, an EV would make total sense for my wife. She works 5 miles from home and rarely travels more than 30 miles or so roundtrip when running errands during the week. We would still need a gas-powered vehicle for longer trips, but I can totally see her rocking something like a Leaf.


The author's original comment I was responding to.

Like the dipsh1t below, you should probably actually read what I was responding to before typing anything yourself.

My whole point was to show that trying to justify buying an EV as a 2nd car to "save money" on your local driving is a farce. And I've demonstrated that beyond the shadow of a doubt.

If you already own an ICE car...drive it. Only the horrifically moronic can convince themselves they'd be saving money by buying an EV as a 2nd vehicle and then using it for local driving only.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 7:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
Why did you assume that Brandon doesn't have his own car?

Why would you call us dipsh1ts for understanding that his household has at least two cars, like most of the US? What does that make you for thinking something else?
quote:
My whole point was to show that trying to justify buying an EV as a 2nd car to "save money" on your local driving is a farce.
You mean an additional car when only one would otherwise suffice? What kind of idiotic point is that? Nobody has EVER made that conjecture.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 7:41:57 PM , Rating: 3
Lots of people have.

Also, go see my reply to your dipsh1ttery below with your numbered list.

There's no way to justify buying an EV as an *only* car...forget the 2nd car argument. Not if you think you're doing so from any basis of "saving money."

Your failure is complete.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 8:05:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lots of people have.
Then show me these "lots of people". I've never seen anyone say 1 ICE + 1 EV is economical over 1 ICE only.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 8:10:56 PM , Rating: 3
Not letting you off the hook there with your misdirection.

Handy how you declined to respond to my irrefutable math showing that an EV is an indefensible purchase even from the standpoint of being an only car - let alone a second car.

You're a tool. And I'm ashamed that we're both members of the same species...as far as I can tell from here.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 8:29:57 PM , Rating: 1
hey motoidiot, did you know you look like a total dork when you keep lying about "$30k EV" all the time? I just checked with local Nissan dealer, he offered me $27,500 for new 2013 Leaf S, with tax rebate it's $20k, not $30k

not that illiterate uneducated farmers like you care about facts, right? LOL :))) geez you can't even fucking know the MOST BASIC FACT about EVs - _THE PRICE_

why the fuck anyone would listen to your obvious lies is beyond me, if someone is listening he must be just as dumb and uneducated corn farmer as you :P

also nobody is pretending buying second EV and using it instead of ICE to run local errands is a smart idea. brandon was originally talking here about buying second car for second independent person. you failed to check the facts and you just keep looking as dorky as usual moto hahaha :)))


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 9:44:31 PM , Rating: 2
You showed no such thing. You compared an EV to a free car and were too dumb to realize it.

Your own calculation of $300/mo gas savings for a heavy driver pays for the price premium of a Leaf in under 2 years, and covers the tax credit as well in under 4 years.

But even for more reasonable mileage, the math is very simple with a lease, as Nissan is taking out all the guesswork of resale values.

Find a comparably equipped ICE car that you can lease and fuel for $199+$30 per month ($2000 down) for 12,000 miles/yr. A 33 MPG combined car will need $105/mo for gas alone and probably more down the road, so you're left with $125/mo. Good luck.

Want to finance an ICE on the same budget? How long does it take to pay down a $16k-2k=$14k loan with $125/mo? I'll tell you: 13 years @ 5%.

It's the cheapest way to get inside a decently equipped new car today.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/3/2013 9:26:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You mean an additional car when only one would otherwise suffice? What kind of idiotic point is that? Nobody has EVER made that conjecture.


Yeah, wrong. They do that all the time here, I've seen it more times than I can count.

And no, we're not talking about replacing a second ICE with an EV. People have actually said you should just have a second car, an EV, for around town driving. And they actually believe that's more cost effective.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/3/2013 9:44:15 AM , Rating: 2
If it's so common then it should be easy for you to point out, so do it.

I bet you're misinterpreting them the same way you indisputably misinterpreted Brandon in this thread, who isn't considering ICE+EV as an alternative to 1 ICE car like you thought. He's looking at it as an alterative to 2 ICE cars.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 6:05:16 PM , Rating: 3
Also, this is from my own first post here:

quote:
...so you buy a $30k electric car for the 10 mile commute your wife does to work every day, and then a $30k gas car for real use.


So...how long does your reading comprehension take to kick in, if you *just now* realized I was talking about the EV as a 2nd car?

Maybe you should brush up on that ESL.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 6:20:34 PM , Rating: 1
The incompetence just doesn't stop with you, does it. These are the two options:

Brandon: ICE
Wife: EV

or

Brandon: ICE
Wife: ICE

Get it yet? The family needs a second car regardless, and the EV's range works for almost all of his wife's needs. This is a very common usage scenario for many families.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 6:40:02 PM , Rating: 2
For all we know, it's a single car household. Those exist you know? It's a "very common usage scenario for many families".


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 7:16:32 PM , Rating: 2
What are you talking about? He clearly stated that it's a two car household.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 7:24:01 PM , Rating: 3
No that's not clearly stated. And it doesn't matter anyway, you're wrong. Have you even bought a car before? You never come out ahead replacing one vehicle with another. Especially if one is fully paid off. Please do your BS math and pretend you can make payments on a Leaf, and still come out ahead vs a paid off ICE vehicle. Good luck!


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 7:32:02 PM , Rating: 2
Great idea. America's families should never sell cars to others and replace them with new ones.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 7:46:10 PM , Rating: 2
Did I say that? God you're being such a moron about this.

Cars are not an investment, they depreciate the minute of purchase. Obviously I never meant nobody should ever buy vehicles and drive around in rust buckets, moron, I'm just pointing out ROI (return on investment) on cars are never what you put into them.

Again, have you even bought a car before? I'm really starting to wonder if you have a clue about how this works. Buying a new car means a down payment (usually), sales taxes, a monthly payment (sometimes higher payment), often increased insurance rates and other fees.

You never EVER come out "ahead". Get this through your thick skull.

And maybe you should keep up on current freaking events once in a while. What do you think has been happening out there for the past 5+ years? Americans ARE keeping their vehicles much longer now. New car sales have been poor. And this is world wide! The EU is coming off a 19 year low in car sales.

And here you are trying to convince people that now is the time to "come out ahead" and buy an EV? Just...LMAO!!!


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 10:13:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did I say that
You compared buying an EV with sticking with a paid off car. What else am I supposed to think with that absurd comparison?
quote:
Again, have you even bought a car before?
Sure, but what's your point? I paid cash because I could.
quote:
Americans ARE keeping their vehicles much longer now. New car sales have been poor.
Did they stop buying new cars during the recession? No, they bought 14.5M cars in 2012 - the best year since the recession started.

So why are you hung up on comparing an EV with an already paid off car? How does it escape your mind that instead maybe a few percent of those 14.5M new car buyers are the target market for an EV?
quote:
And here you are trying to convince people that now is the time to "come out ahead" and buy an EV?
Yeah, how insensitive of me to point out lower monthly transportation costs with a Leaf lease over other comparable cars.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 6:15:17 PM , Rating: 2
Mint your reading comprehension fails. In your rush to snowjob us on all things EV, you didn't even bother to grasp the debate.

The fact is buying an EV as a second vehicle just to "save money" on fuel is not viable at all. You will not come out ahead on that proposition at all.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 6:22:29 PM , Rating: 2
The EV replaces the second ICE, genius.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 6:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
lmao omg. READ Brandons post! There IS no second ICE!

Here let me help you:

quote:
We would still need a gas-powered vehicle for longer trips , but I can totally see her rocking something like a Leaf.


You freaking idiot!


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 7:15:25 PM , Rating: 2
You just love digging yourself into a hole, don't you. That gas-powered car is his car. He's not talking about his wife having two cars in addition to his.
quote:
We are already a two-car household, so it could work for us.

How can your mind be so feeble as to be incapable of understanding this simple concept?


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 7:52:42 PM , Rating: 2
He added that MUCH later in the discussion. Not his OP, not even close. Yeah excuse the hell out of me for not reading every single post here lol.

And, again, you're still wrong. And obnoxious. Replacing one of their current vehicles with an EV will NOT SAVE THEM MONEY.

Which is probably why he's here saying the Leaf "could" work for them, instead of already having bought one. Is he waiting for an invitation from Nissan?

And furthermore you big-mouthed troll, are YOU driving an EV currently? Goddamn hypocrite.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 7:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
Especially considering he said it would be for his wife, who apparently barely drives. ~9k miles a year is WAY below average, it's nothing. So now go BS up some more math that somehow shows buying a new Leaf is cheaper than the small amount of gasoline she's using up.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 11:28:06 PM , Rating: 2
He added it two hours after his first post and five hours before yours, and also implied it right from the beginning, but I forgive you for being too daft to notice. Of course, you decided to insult me before using a little common sense or doing a little more reading of the thread.
quote:
Replacing one of their current vehicles with an EV will NOT SAVE THEM MONEY.

I said this in my first post in direct response to Brandon mentioning his wife's mileage:
quote:
That could be worth it, but of course only if you were otherwise planning on buying a new car for her anyway.


quote:
And furthermore you big-mouthed troll, are YOU driving an EV currently? Goddamn hypocrite.
Do you even know what a hypocrite is? Explain how I'm being one. I point out that people who drive typical mileage (I don't) and can live with the range can save money with an EV. Trolls like Motoman and yourself say every EV purchase is "indefensible" and only done by "eco-nuts", and I prove you wrong. I never said or implied that you or everyone must buy one.


RE: FIFY
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 1:32:08 PM , Rating: 2
That's just her work commute; you know, she does have a life outside of work too :)

She averages 8,000 to 9,000 miles a year.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 1:34:37 PM , Rating: 2
...that's ~24 miles a day. Doesn't change the math much, and besides see my further example at 75 miles a day.

Still unjustifiable. Unless you think an electric bicycle is a reasonable alternative, like some dipsh1ts around here.


RE: FIFY
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 1:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
Well, her current car cost $21,000 new. A Leaf is $29k before $7,500 tax credit.

We are already a two-car household, so it could work for us.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 2:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
Just buy a used Leaf and let someone else eat that depreciation.


RE: FIFY
By SublimeSimplicity on 5/2/2013 3:11:47 PM , Rating: 2
Lease it, let Nissan eat the depreciation. They want to bet on EVs depreciating slower than ICE cars, take the other side.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 4:00:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lease it, let Nissan eat the depreciation. They want to bet on EVs depreciating slower than ICE cars, take the other side.
This would work for me too.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 4:46:47 PM , Rating: 1
No, Nissan doesn't eat it, unfortunately the customer eats it. I compared the price of purchase with a total price of lease plus purchase after the lease.

So if you purchase Leaf S you'll either pay $20,000 (tax rebate included) plus whatever the loan rate is if you take one, Nissan offers 0.9% so it's almost nothing.

Now, if you lease it, you pay $2,360 upfront (dealer fees included) and then you pay $2,400 in two years of lease payments, then you can purchase it after lease if you agree to a whopping $18,500!!!

So this comes to $23,000 total if I purchase it! This is total fucking ripoff man, why the fuck would I pay THREE GRAND extra if for example 2014 Mazda 6 that I can lease at the dealership next door has EQUAL price for lease versus finance? Looks like Nissan is explicitly ripping off consumers because they know people are afraid of battery degradation and wanna lease it, sweet mouthed Nissan salesmen will tale you leasing is safe and shit. Yeah of course it is fucking safe when I pay THREE GRAND extra! What the fuck Nissan??

So please stop spreading lies about Nissan eating anything, in fact it's the total opposite - the econuts are being heavily milked by Nissan right now, this is what's happening.

No fucking way, I'm going to wait for NORMAL lease terms like that Mazda 6 one next door. I do NOT want to pay three grand extra just for the privilege to lease. Fuck you Nissan and fuck your EV too!

When Nissan announces some kind of battery degradation handling program (future battery upgrade/replacement etc) and stops milking econuts and turns to normal consumers like me, then we'll be talking.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 5:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
The point of leasing is so that you don't buy it for $18,500, and instead walk away or lease a new one. If they can't sell it used for $15,240 + resale overhead, then they're eating losses. That's the point he's making. You may even be able to negotiate down the purchase price if you see that used Leafs are selling for a lot less.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 6:49:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The point of leasing is so that you don't buy it for $18,500, and instead walk away or lease a new one.
I've had people make this ridiculous argument all the time. Who the hell buys a car AFTER they've leased it? That's asinine! If you like the car AND you want to keep it longer than the typical lease period, BUY the next one AFTER the lease is up AND you turn it in.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 8:02:52 PM , Rating: 2
Well, I wouldn't say it's asinine.

Sometimes you can wind up paying less for a car if the manufacturer overestimates the residual to make attractive rates, and that was actually a widespread phenomenon when the recession hit and demand went down. You could negotiate a low purchase price, and manufacturers ate big losses.

Even without that, it's cheaper than buying a new model after the lease is up, and there's always a little comfort in buying a car you used for three years rather than someone else's.

It's like purchasing a put option as a hedge for a stock you already bought. You think the stock is good and intend to own it long term, but you pay a little extra for the option to sell at a predetermined price to make sure you don't lose too much.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 4:35:17 PM , Rating: 1
Brandon, please don't trust the dumb Mototroll, he doesn't know shit as usual. Here's my numbers (been at local Nissan dealership yestreday): brand new 2013 Leaf S with no options is $27,500, that's the price dealer gave me. Get $7,500 off due to fed tax credit. That's now a brand new 80 mile range EV for $20,000, NO SALES TAX IN WASHINGTON too, so for me it'd be $20,000 out of my pocket. This is DIRT cheap for such a car IMHO.

However, I didn't jump in because I'm worried about the battery degradation. In Washington state the climate is mild so I don't expect serious issues like these infamous 7 from Phoenix, but still... Nissan's warranty is like "guaranteed to lose not more that 30% of capacity in 5 years".

I mean, to me it's more like "It WILL lose 30% capacity in 5 years. Unless you babysit it and don't drive it and keep it in cool garage with exactly 0 degrees Celsius"

I'm waiting for Nissan to come up with some sort of a battery upgrade/replacement program for those 5 year old Leafs 'cause I hate to have a car with 50 miles of range in 2018, what the fuck is that shit Nissan?

Otherwise the car is a dream machine, quietest car ever (of course, what do you expect from an electric huh?), drives real nice, it's bottom heavy (large flat heavy battery under the floor) and hence super stable and smooth on a highway. Has lots of luxury amenities like leather heated steering wheel and heated seats even in the most basic trim. And if you have dough you can equip it with a full hightech whizbang, smartphone app that controls the car remotely (almost James Bond movie coming alive), full leather trim, satnav, 360 degrees camera, whatever you fucking want. Even the fucking solar battery is optional on the roof if you want. Holy shit.

If not for battery degradation issue I'd be driving one already, I literally fucking pulled myself away from that damn dealership, that place is a fucking honeypot to me now. MUST RESIST THE URGE TO GO TEST DRIVING LEAF AGAIN MUST RESIST THE URGE. MUST. RESIST. THE.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 5:31:47 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't matter. So the Leaf costs you $21,500.

Let's assume that your ICE car is a Hyundai Accent. MSRP $14,500 and 37 MPG.

That's $1.08 per round trip to work and back. 19,907 round trips to work and back to pay for the Leaf, assuming no costs other than gas. 54 years.

Go ahead and change how much she drives each day. Doesn't matter. Figure in insurance and maintenance and such. Doesn't matter. In the end, if you're *actually* concerned about saving money, what you'd do is own one ICE car and forget the EV.

...because there's *no* way that it works out for a 2-car household.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 6:11:08 PM , Rating: 2
You fail so badly at math.

1) The Accent is 31 MPG combined. Brandon's wife doesn't live, work, and do errands on the highway.

2) The Leaf is a 5-door car, offering decent trunk space. The 5-door Accent auto costs $16k.

3) She needs a car, and they can't get by on only one car in the family. Therefore the Leaf would be a substitute for the Accent, and the difference is $5500.

4) Brandon already told you that she does 9k miles/yr, not the 10 miles/day that you used for your 54 year figure.

So stripped of all your BS, we find that the EV saves about $75/mo in fuel costs, and would take ~6 years to break even, not 54.

Alternatively, you could break even in a couple months if you choose to lease. Accent is $169/mo (for a manual sedan), $1899 down, $100/mo in gas, while Leaf is $199/mo, $1999 down, $25/mo in electricity. In three years you save $2600 by choosing the Leaf.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 6:56:53 PM , Rating: 2
Nope.

First of all, it hasn't been established that Brandon has or needs a car of his own. In fact...granted what his occupation appears to be, good chance he works from home.

Secondly, EVEN IF you were looking at the $21,500 Leaf vs. the $14,500 Accent (price from their website...and don't whine about it, because there's cheaper cars yet I could use), you've got to make up $7,000 just in gas alone. Which would take 17.8 years at $1.08 a trip (highway miles) or 14.5 years at $1.32 a trip (at 31MPG).

So then bump it to 24 miles a day - the high end of the range he noted for her total driving. Then you get to your magical six year figure...which first of all, is still pretty piss-poor for a return period. Also, consider that the rest of us all paid $7,500 for you to get the Leaf in the first place...if you consider the cost to all the taxpayers based on your Leaf purchase as well, you're having to make up for $14,500 - not $7,000. Which takes your breakeven date to over 12 years. And no - I'm not happy about being forced to subsidize your purchase of your Leaf.

BUT, as noted above, I can just say "well what if the ICE alternative was a Nissan Versa instead" - and hey, the whole point here is to save money, right?

Well now instead of making up $7,000 (not including the $7,500 that all other Americans had to pay for you, you have to make up $9,500 because the Versa only costs $12k. Or, you have to make up $17,000 including the taxpayer-funded EV discount. 35MPG combined too on the Versa.

At 24 miles a day, the Versa costs $2.74 to operate. Now you're up to 9.5 years to break even on the $9,500. Or 17 years to make up for the $17,000...of which US taxpayers paid the $7,500 discount for you.

...so, once again, if you're trying to make the case for an EV vs. an ICE car - EVEN AS a replacement, not a 2nd car, you're still a horrific failure. Firstly just on the cost to you, as a consumer, by buying the Leaf vs. an inexpensive and economical ICE car - but doubly so when you factor in the burden you levied onto the US taxpayer by buying the Leaf.

So - who, exactly, fails at math? STFU and GTFO. You've been owned. And sadly...you have no resale value.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 8:49:05 PM , Rating: 2
moto, stop lying already, your dumb tricks WON'T work on me or any other smart person. if I said price is 20k it IS 20k. because 27500-7500=20000, why can't ya farmer squarehead understand the simplest math? my dealer offered the purchase price of 27500 hence it's 20k after tax rebate, not your 21k so get your 21k back into your corny ass you pulled it from, and please never pull it out, thank you!

next, if you imagine a family where one person travels a lot on a gas car and the other person only makes local errands not farther than 20 miles from home, EV as a second car is the perfect scenario for such a family. my situation is very similar, we both don't drive a lot and if I need to drive far (very rarely) then I already have ICE. hence leaf S as a second car for me would be the best choice economically, for 20k NOT 21k ya idiot! we have just one ICE car now btw

third, you can just compare running cost of some nice 20k small car with running costs of 20k (NOT 21k ya idiot!) leaf S, take some similar small luxury like car with heated front seats and leather/heated steering wheel (that's base equipment on any leaf btw), so this ICE will also cost you around 20k brand new, ALSO REMEMBER that in WA (maybe in other states too) you don't pay sales tax on EVs, so my leaf S for 20k is same price wise as say kia rio for 18k because I have to pay sales tax on rio, but NOT on the leaf!

lastly, you compare running costs of 18k kia rio with running costs of 20k leaf and... leaf wins hands down 'cause plugging it into wall is WAY cheaper than buying gas, also you save on oil/filter changes, plus your brake pads wear out much slower since there's regenerative braking

you won't understand all this, I'm sure, I'm writing it all for smarter people than you, sorry moto :P


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 9:02:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
First of all, it hasn't been established that Brandon has or needs a car of his own.
Yes it has. Brandon explicitly said he's in a two car household. I explicitly talked about most Americans being 2+ car households.

Just admit that you're wrong and stop this two car vs one car BS.
quote:
Which would take 17.8 years at $1.08 a trip (highway miles) or 14.5 years at $1.32 a trip (at 31MPG).
Why do you keep repeating these meaningless numbers when you know that she drives ~24 miles per day, not 10?
quote:
which first of all, is still pretty piss-poor for a return period.
No it isn't, as people have trillions of dollars sitting around earning near zero interest, but if you want a faster return period, then lease.
quote:
Also, consider that the rest of us all paid $7,500 for you to get the Leaf in the first place
Better than spending even more on imported oil.
quote:
the Versa only costs $12k
Yeah, for the base manual sedan model. It also lacks the power door locks and power windows which 95% of new car buyers choose for their car, including Brandon's wife if she last paid $21k for the car she liked.

$16k minimum for a Versa S Hatch with auto, and the base Leaf is still much better equipped with a much bigger trunk.
quote:
35MPG combined too on the Versa.
For the CVT sedan model. Under 30 for the base hatch.
quote:
who, exactly, fails at math?
Everyone here can see that you have, but you can stay in your fantasy land and pretend otherwise.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 9:55:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes it has. Brandon explicitly said he's in a two car household


Meant to type "hadn't" instead of "hasn't" - at the time I started, he'd not said that yet. But ultimately it doesn't matter, because you're still pretending not to see that I've answered your BS with facts that disprove your assertions.

quote:
Why do you keep repeating these meaningless numbers when you know that she drives ~24 miles per day, not 10?


I did. And you ignored them.

quote:
No it isn't, as people have trillions of dollars sitting around earning near zero interest, but if you want a faster return period, then lease.


No, 6 years is pretty piss-poor for a breakeven period, before you can begin "saving" anything. Especially when you factor in the $7,500 that you made me and every other American subsidize your EV for - because the *real* breakeven time is over 12 years.

quote:
Better than spending even more on imported oil.


No, it isn't - not when the oil is more economical (it is) and oil is a fungible commmodity (it is).

quote:
Yeah, for the base manual sedan model. It also lacks the power door locks and power windows which 95% of new car buyers choose for their car, including Brandon's wife if she last paid $21k for the car she liked.


...I thought your point was to save money? Is it or isn't it? Regardless, add a couple grand and it still doesn't matter. Your argument doesn't become valid.

...but I can see there's no point. As noted, you've ignored the fact that I posted information disproving your stupidity at the 24 miles per day, using an EV as a replacement for an ICE car, not a 2nd car, and you refuse to address that issue.

I accept your admission of defeat. Now STFU and GTFO. You're making the internet stupider. Bad enough Pirks is still around - you're becoming as bad as him.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 11:19:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
at the time I started, he'd not said that yet.
LOL you posted in direct reply to him four hours after he said that. Go take a look a few posts up:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=31471...
quote:
No, 6 years is pretty piss-poor for a breakeven period, before you can begin "saving" anything.
As I said and you ignored, if you want to save immediately then lease.
quote:
No, it isn't - not when the oil is more economical (it is) and oil is a fungible commmodity (it is).
It's not more economical over the life of the car. An EV lasting 100k miles displaces $13k of gasoline, and after battery refurbishment can displace $13k more. Fungibility is irrelevant.

quote:
As noted, you've ignored the fact that I posted information disproving your stupidity at the 24 miles per day, using an EV as a replacement for an ICE car, not a 2nd car, and you refuse to address that issue.
What have I ignored? I directly addressed your fallacious assumption of the Leaf costing $9500 more than its ICE equivalent. It's $5500 at most.

Maybe you should stop ignoring yourself. Remember, you wrote this:
quote:
...and I guess just because someone will say "well yeah but what if the daily commute is 75 miles instead of 10?" - Gas costs in the ICE vehicle: $10/day, $300/month
So what is the breakeven time with this mileage when you're buying a new car and choose a new Leaf instead of a new Versa hatchback? Hint: much less than the 10 years you claim.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 9:13:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
EVEN IF you were looking at the $21,500 Leaf vs. the $14,500 Accent
look here mototroll: to compare similar cars you'll have to add a bunch of options to accent which will quickly bring it to 18k, then add sales tax which for ICE bot NOT for EVs in my state - voila, you've been owned :P hahaha ya lamooo :P you're so funny because you don't even know the basics, I love it when you pretend that basic 14k korean shitbox is anywhere near leaf quality and experience wise hahahaaaa :))) LOOOL


RE: FIFY
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 11:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
Good lord; I go out to have a few drinks with the fellas and all hell breaks loose!

We are a two-car household. I have a car, my wife has a car. We've always had our own cars. I've had a car of my own since I was 16, same for her. When we got married, we became a two-car household.

We recently replaced her 8-year old car with a new car in November 2012 at a cost of around $21,000 before taking into account the trade-in on her old Honda.

We were going to replace her car anyway... my only point was that we could have easily gone with a Nissan Leaf and she would have done just fine. I still have my turbo'd gasoline car if we need to take long trips.


RE: FIFY
By BRB29 on 5/3/2013 8:57:05 AM , Rating: 2
This post alone have disproved all crazy calculations motoman had posted. I don't know how he can assume Brandon would be a 1 car household when he stated that he is a 2 household car. His original post did not say it directly, but anyone reading it would understand he has to be a 2 car household.

I'm sure motoman have alternate accounts just to vote people down and vote himself up. Either that, or we have a bunch of people with not enough common sense.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/3/2013 9:23:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Good lord; I go out to have a few drinks with the fellas and all hell breaks loose!


Brandon stay out of this!! We'll decide what vehicles you do or don't have, and which one is best for your wife. YOU GOT THAT!?

lol j/k :P

quote:
We were going to replace her car anyway... my only point was that we could have easily gone with a Nissan Leaf and she would have done just fine.


Kinda my point. A lot of people who advocate for shoving EV's on the rest of us, don't seem to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to their own vehicles. Just saying...


RE: FIFY
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/3/2013 9:48:28 AM , Rating: 2
And if I HAD bought one, I'm a parasite wasting YOUR tax dollars on a $7,500 credit ;)

That being said, we probably would have gone with the Leaf had it been priced where it is now. When we bought her car in November, the Leaf had a base price of $35,000.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/3/2013 9:53:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And if I HAD bought one, I'm a parasite wasting YOUR tax dollars on a $7,500 credit ;)


Oh yeah I almost forgot about that. I'm glad you went with an ICE now, I like you, and would hate to give you my 'scum of the Earth' ranking :)


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/3/2013 10:06:27 AM , Rating: 2
Neither Brandon nor I are "shoving EVs" you. I am dispelling the BS math by Motoman. Brandon is saying it would've made sense for him if it was available.

EVs make sense for many people now. In Nov 2012, the Leaf cost $6400 more than it does today. That's a deal breaker on ANY car. If Toyota jacked up the Camry price by $6k+, sales would tank.

All the calculations done when EVs arrived were done with old, higher prices. Now they make sense for many households.


RE: FIFY
By topkill on 5/2/2013 5:39:12 PM , Rating: 2
My God Brandon, will you stop with your real world facts here? Motoman is doing calculations based on HIS assumptions and you're trying to tell him the REALITY of your situation!

What is wrong with you???

:-)


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 5:54:15 PM , Rating: 2
You can try to come up with whatever "facts" you want - it doesn't matter. You can't justify buying an EV as a 2nd vehicle to drive for only short-distance trips...no matter what.


RE: FIFY
By Motoman on 5/2/2013 7:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
...and actually, as you can see in my post above, there's no way to justify it as an only car either. Not if you're going to pretend you're doing it to save money.

Anyone who asserts any such thing is an abject failure from the beginning.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 9:06:21 PM , Rating: 1
well, I already justified it above, you just went into denial as usual

20k for EV plus almost no running costs, no gas, no oil, no brake pads, no maintenance ==> much less running costs over 10 year period than in ICE that costs same 20k

especially including sales tax which in my state makes ICE price 18k but does not apply to EVs :P

good luck comparing 18k korean econoshitbox with near luxury EV like a leaf LOL :)))

hey stupid farmer, where's my fuking heated seats on my 18k econobox huh? ahahahaaa :)))


RE: FIFY
By Cheesew1z69 on 5/3/2013 9:48:23 AM , Rating: 1
Holy shit, you are fucking retarded.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/3/2013 2:37:17 PM , Rating: 2
shut the yapper clowney, you don't even understand a word of what we are talking about


RE: FIFY
By Cheesew1z69 on 5/3/2013 3:44:36 PM , Rating: 2
Um, yea, keep thinking that. Moron.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/3/2013 8:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
yea I can think, but can you, clowney? :))) it doesn't look so


RE: FIFY
By Cheesew1z69 on 5/3/2013 8:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
You act like a little kid...it's quite sad. And funny at the same time.


RE: FIFY
By bug77 on 5/2/2013 3:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
you know, she does have a life outside of work too :)


Link. Or it can didn't happen.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 4:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
You don't need to drive a lot to have a life :)

That could be worth it, but of course only if you were otherwise planning on buying a new car for her anyway.

9k/yr would need ~25 gallons/month from a 30mpg avg car, so lets call that $100/mo. Electricity needed for a Leaf would be 217 kWh/mo, or ~$25. So at equal total cost, you can either lease the Leaf for $200/mo, or lease a car for $125/mo, which gets you a pretty crappy car AFAIK. That doesn't take into account free charging opportunities and low maintenance costs, either.

We could do purchase math as well, but leases give you a better handle on the actual costs per year, i.e. depreciation+fuel, and I think it's a better way to buy an EV. If you don't like it or think the battery is shoddy, leave it to Nissan and buy the 3 year old car that you would've had anyway if you didn't lease the EV. If you like it, keep it or lease a newer version.

Of course, this is contingent on her actually liking it. I wish they did a better job of styling, like Renault did.


RE: FIFY
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 5:00:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
If you don't like it or think the battery is shoddy, leave it to Nissan and buy the 3 year old car that you would've had anyway if you didn't lease the EV
Yeah the problem is: the car deprecates to 70% in real life in two years years while Nissan will try to sell it to you for 90% that's a fucking ripoff! You either purchase Leaf S for $20,000 (with tax rebate included) or you lease it for $4760 total in two years and then Nissan will try to sell it to you for $18,500!!! Can you believe this? Who the fuck will lease Leaf on such condition if he or she is not mentally sick econut?


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 6:46:46 PM , Rating: 2
Who cares what Nissan tries to do then? You don't have any obligation to buy it. FYI, you forgot about the down payment, so that $18,500 looks even worse...

If the market value of the used Leaf is 90%, then Nissan is justified. If not, then you can either bargain with them or walk away.

If they're ripping you off, then lease a new Leaf for $9.5k total for three years, and then buy a three year old ICE for $9k. You'll come out ahead versus paying $17k plus three years of gas for the ICE-only route.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 6:50:25 PM , Rating: 2
Dude have you seen used car prices lately? Wtf kind of three year old car can you find that's going to be $9k? Maybe a Suzuki Swift lol.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 6:58:50 PM , Rating: 2
A 3 yo used Nissan Versa might be $9k. Not much else though.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 7:01:58 PM , Rating: 2
Took a look on Autotrader. Versa, Accent and Aveo is all I could find.


RE: FIFY
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/2013 7:04:38 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah lol aka shitboxes.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/2/2013 10:32:40 PM , Rating: 2
Well, that's what's being suggested my Motoman as cheaper alternatives to the Leaf, even though the latter is much better equipped.


RE: FIFY
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 6:56:06 PM , Rating: 2
Why would buy the car AFTER you've leased? We've leased a number of cars and never bought one. Always turned it in. Our sole reason for leasing is my wife will NOT use a daily driven car much past 100k miles/5 years. And I refuse to pay the depreciation of a new car that's only going to see 100k at most on it. A leased car is FAR cheaper to buy AND own when you're faced with those facts. I keep my cars much longer than her so I always buy mine although this will probably be my last new car. I'm going used with low mileage from now on.


RE: FIFY
By Mint on 5/3/2013 10:18:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I refuse to pay the depreciation of a new car that's only going to see 100k at most on it.
Umm, that's exactly what you're paying for with the lease payments. You're the sucker paying for initial depreciation so that someone else can buy your off-lease car far cheaper than new :P

The advantage of leasing over buying/selling is getting around duplicate sales tax (in most states) and fixed depreciation cost (i.e. risk mitigation).


RE: FIFY
By bug77 on 5/2/2013 12:41:16 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with limited range is that sometimes you'll need to make trips longer than you daily commute. A normal car has you covered, an EV, not. And not everyone affords a second car. In the US, maybe, but in the rest of the world...


This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Arsynic on 5/2/2013 11:16:37 AM , Rating: 2
...when a non-viable industry or company isn't propped up by government money.

If people want it, it would sell. Bottom line. If people don't want a product, then it shouldn't exist.




RE: This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Nortel on 5/2/2013 11:24:20 AM , Rating: 1
Its completely not viable in its current state. This is when the nation will adopt the change:

-Batteries can charge in 15 minutes
-Batteries can be charged at a gas station (electrical charging stations, pay per watt, like propane..)
-Battery lasts as long as a typical gas counterpart's gas tank
-Batteries don't need to be replaced every 5 years ($$$$)


By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 11:27:45 AM , Rating: 2
Not viable to you maybe. But for someone that has a daily commute of less than 75 miles roundtrip, it's quite viable today.


By Ammohunt on 5/2/2013 11:46:26 AM , Rating: 2
Viable buy economically EV's are not practical yet better ways need to have an immediate cost benefit especially under the noose of the Obama economy.


By Dr of crap on 5/2/2013 12:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
If these EV'S WERE viable they would sell.
I see they COULD have a niche market,
Up to this point they have not, so your point?


RE: This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Reclaimer77 on 5/2/13, Rating: 0
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 5/2/2013 2:38:30 PM , Rating: 2
No, I'm just interested in cars and technology. Is it out of line to say that EVs may be a fit for certain families?

Besides, I don't have a horse in this race. My next car is going to be a diesel station wagon.


RE: This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Pirks on 5/2/2013 4:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah and I'm getting Mazda 5 'cause wagons suck space wise and cargo hauling wise :P But Leaf is the best car ever still, just needs battery support program from Nissan and normal lease from Nissan instead of rampant econut milking they call a lease these days.

Very likely my next car after Mazda 5 will be Leaf, it's the closest to ideal for me.


RE: This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 7:05:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Very likely my next car after Mazda 5 will be Leaf, it's the closest to ideal for me.
Cargo space is important to you but you're willing to go from a Mazda5 to a Leaf? BTW, my next car is either a 2013 Boss 302 Stang or a modded BMW 135i (both will be used). Leaning towards the Bimmer cause it will be a lot cheaper upfront (can you believe that?).


By Pirks on 5/2/2013 8:53:14 PM , Rating: 2
NO! I'm buying Leaf as a second car in ADDITION to Mazda!


RE: This Is What Is Supposed to Happen...
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 7:02:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Besides, I don't have a horse in this race. My next car is going to be a diesel station wagon.
Just don't buy a VW please!


By Pirks on 5/2/2013 9:02:09 PM , Rating: 2
why?


By Mint on 5/2/2013 12:31:08 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't need to be viable for everyone to find its niche. 57% of households have 2 or more cars, and I'd guess half of them would find 80-mile range manageable in their secondary car. Maybe 10% of those have high enough income to buy any new car as their secondary, and overnight charging isn't an issue for most (90% of new homes have a garage/carport, and it's been this way for a while).

Put it all together, and I'd guess there's target audience of maybe 3M potential EV buyers in the next few years. They just need to convince them to take a chance.

Your 5 year estimate is very pessimistic. Batteries nowadays can do 2000 cycles with 80%+ capacity remaining, so that'd be 400k miles+ on a Tesla or 100k miles+ on a Leaf. Yeah, some areas are getting worse wear, but most are fine.

I think what Nissan needs to do is take a page from it's ally Renault: Sell EVs like cell phones, charging a monthly fee for the battery lease. Charge, say, $90/month over life of the vehicle (1000 miles/mo would cost most people $120/mo in gas, so that's a fair substitute), and knock off $6k from the sticker price. That should cover future (cheaper) cell replacements and provide a nice profit.


bad implementation
By Nortel on 5/2/2013 10:58:46 AM , Rating: 2
It would make sense to me if a company could retrofit a sub compact car into a full EV. Buy 50 Nissan Versa's directly from Nissan without engine, transmission or gas tank and slap in your own EV system and sell them to the public.

I think this would be a hell of a better idea vs creating all of the car parts from scratch...




RE: bad implementation
By Flunk on 5/2/2013 1:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
This is basically what Coda was doing, except that they were doing it with a Chinese car that looked terrible and drove worse.

Plus with a Nissan you run into the problem that they literally already build the car you're describing and have a lot more volume. It would be pretty hard to compete with the Leaf when it comes to electric Nissan Versas.


RE: bad implementation
By Mathos on 5/2/2013 1:44:35 PM , Rating: 2
I think a refitting business could work with the right vehicle. If I ever won the lotto, I've had it in my mind to start a business refitting older vehicles to run in a gas generator, electric power train setup. Similar to the way modern train engines work.

Expensive, and slow charging batteries I think are still the main thing holding EV's back. So do away with them, until the technology is ready and cheap. Or until viable alternatives to lithium batteries are put into production.


RE: bad implementation
By eBob on 5/2/2013 2:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
I had a similar idea, except I was going to use a dark energy discombobulator instead of a gas generator.


RE: bad implementation
By Spuke on 5/2/2013 2:37:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
dark energy discombobulator
LMAO


RE: bad implementation
By SublimeSimplicity on 5/2/2013 3:13:50 PM , Rating: 2
They say the best way to a small fortune is to start with a large one.

There are a lot of reasons why your scheme is not a good one. Read about Fisker.


RE: bad implementation
By Mathos on 5/3/2013 1:29:56 PM , Rating: 2
Not really, fisker tried to make electric cars. Same thing as Tesla. They were too expensive, and, had the fire issue.

Neh, I'm talking more like Vans, larger SUVs, Light trucks, etc. Those wouldn't be much of a stretch, since they already have large engine compartments to work with. Plus they would benefit the most from a fuel economy increase. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to put a 200-400bhp low rpm electric motor into one, and a ice engine generator to run it. If you use the right generator, you could run on pure ethanol, gas, LP, etc.


Volt's a working EV
By foxalopex on 5/2/2013 4:59:45 PM , Rating: 3
I own a Volt and it's a great working EV. The battery lasts for about 38 miles (~60 KM) in warm weather and then it switches over to gas to give you a reasonable fuel milage of about 40 mpg. In the cold, Canadian winters it runs more like a hybrid. Since the weather has warmed up, I haven't used any gas since the end of February. Insurance was actually the same compared to my old 05 corolla due to the fact that the Volt has more safety features. I'm very happy with the vehicle and I'm planning to take a cross country trip with it soon. It's biggest issue? Having essentially two engines makes it a lot more expensive. $42,000 after taxes and Canadian Government rebates but for my only car it's a perfect fit. :)




They're doing it wrong!
By Xantos on 5/2/2013 3:18:54 PM , Rating: 2
The only way the EV car can be practical is to sell it at prices equal or lower to ICE (without battery installed) and have replacement-stations where you drive up with your car and they change your fuel-cell/battery pack. No charging at home and no buying expensive battery packs. There is no other way until than this until we start installing 50 year lasting nuclear batteries in vehicles.




"If you look at the last five years, if you look at what major innovations have occurred in computing technology, every single one of them came from AMD. Not a single innovation came from Intel." -- AMD CEO Hector Ruiz in 2007













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