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MPG estimates for alternative fuel vehicles lead to confusion says Edmunds

Alternative fuel vehicles are in more demand than they have been in previous years and many automakers are rushing to get their own alternative fuel vehicles onto the market. These vehicles include those that run on electricity or feature a hybrid powertrain.

Automotive publication Edmunds has issued a recommendation to the U.S. EPA and DOT to change the window stickers on new vehicles to focus more on the cost of the energy required to use vehicles rather than a miles per gallon equivalent. The publication reports that the change of focus will make it easier for consumers to make informed decisions.

The issue is that the MPG estimates that hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles like the Chevy Volt and the Mini E use make for unrealistic expectations in the consumer's mind. For example, General Motors bragged that its Chevrolet Volt will be rated at 230 mpg by the EPA. Nissan responded by claiming that its Leaf EV is rated at 367 mpg.

Edmunds CEO Jeremy Anwyl said, "Consumers have used the existing MPG ratings primarily to get a sense of the relative cost of operating a vehicle on a day-to-day basis. However, using energy equivalents can easily cause consumers to draw erroneous conclusions."

The issue according to Edmunds.com is that if you take the Mini E rating of 99 mpg equivalent and compare it to the the Toyota Prius' 50 mpg, you get the impression that the Mini E is half as expensive to fuel.

Using a proprietary formula, Edmunds found that the cost to fuel the vehicle is actually much less than the mpg ratings might lead consumers to believe. The Mini E has an estimated monthly fuel cost of $49 and the Prius has a monthly fuel cost of $67 reports Edmunds. The numbers are much closer than the mpg figures would lead consumers to believe.

"Looking at this analysis we find that electric vehicles do enjoy a cost advantage over their counterparts powered with other technologies--but this advantage is nowhere near as great as the proposed EPA ratings would imply," Anwyl said.

The window stickers already post the estimated fuel costs for new vehicles; Edmunds simply wants the windows stickers to make the monthly figure more noticeable than the mpg figures for the vehicles.



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Still just fuel?
By Spivonious on 11/23/2009 12:21:09 PM , Rating: 2
Is this still just fuel, or does it include regular maintenance items, like oil changes, tires, etc.?

Every window sticker I've seen always has "annual fuel cost" on it, so I'm not sure how this is new information.




RE: Still just fuel?
By steven975 on 11/23/2009 12:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
Something like a Volt will have the same sticker with a 230MPG figure and a fuel cost commensurate with that.

You must take into consideration the Volt will go probably 25 miles or so (with AC or heat, 40 without) at a cost of ~$2 per charge*

*16KWH (the usable amount is 8KWH, but add in charging loss, drop-off, and top-off and you're almost at 16KWH) at 12c/KWH and you get $1.92. $1.92 for 25 miles isn't a huge bargain.


RE: Still just fuel?
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 1:32:46 PM , Rating: 2
Not $2 per charge. If you use the whole 40 miles for 8KW of usage = 5 miles per KW. At ten cents a KW that would be $0.80 per charge. At current gasoline and power prices plugging in the Volt incurs an equivalent charge as a car getting 120mpg.


RE: Still just fuel?
By steven975 on 11/23/2009 4:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
With no heat and no AC that is. How many people can or will do that??? A hybrid can get good mileage even with the AC or heat on.

To charge a 8KW battery, you will use significantly more than 8KW of electricity from your power company, as well. And given that the optimal 60-65F temperature only occurs a minority of the time across the US, getting 8KWH from a 8KWH battery pack isn't going to happen much, either.

Again, has GM released the Volt's range using AC or a heater??? NOPE!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_can't_a_rechargeable...


RE: Still just fuel?
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 8:38:08 PM , Rating: 2
I live in the midwest, commute 30 miles each way, and run the A/C perhaps 20 days per year and the heater about 40. I don't think running a 1KW compressor or heating element is going to take that much power. Maybe a 10% hit and perhaps much less in winter when the small engine is running and waste-heat from that can be utilized.


RE: Still just fuel?
By mindless1 on 11/24/2009 4:46:49 PM , Rating: 2
"Can be utilized", isn't that the opposite of "is utilized" in practical terms? Do show us who wants to pay for a waste heat extractor as coolant based heater and also pay again for an electric heater.

Makes no sense, they should just simplify and have the electric heater running off the generator on the engine.


RE: Still just fuel?
By Alexstarfire on 11/23/2009 10:12:34 PM , Rating: 1
You need to do a bit more research. Cause then you'll see that the Volt regulates the temperature of the battery to keep it in the optimal range. Though I can't say much about what happens when the car turns off. I see no reason it couldn't keep it regulated while it's being charged, but I'm really not sure on it.


RE: Still just fuel?
By steven975 on 11/24/2009 9:37:42 AM , Rating: 3
"regulates temperature"?

I'm sure this requires energy, correct? From where, exactly? 40 miles will only be attainable with an optimal ambient temperature and no use of AC or heat. What is the range with AC or heat being used????


RE: Still just fuel?
By Spivonious on 11/24/2009 11:19:41 AM , Rating: 2
I did some calculations yesterday.

Going from a $24k mid-size sedan that gets an average of 28mpg to the $40k Volt that gets 320mpg, it would take over 13 years to break even on fuel costs (assuming $3/gal, 12k mi/yr).

Food for thought.


RE: Still just fuel?
By DFranch on 11/24/2009 12:39:16 PM , Rating: 2
Does that include the tax break you will receive for the $40k volt? That would drop the price to $32.5k. I think the average miles per year is up closer to 15k these days too.


RE: Still just fuel?
By Spivonious on 11/24/2009 4:51:41 PM , Rating: 2
I adjusted for the tax credit and upped the mileage/year to 15k.

At that point it's a bit better: only 6 years to break even.


RE: Still just fuel?
By Keeir on 11/24/2009 1:10:59 PM , Rating: 2
Going from a 14k Small Size Sedan, you will never break even with that $24k Sedan

Going from a Smart Car, you will never break even with that 14k Small Sedan

Going from a Nano, you will never break even on that Smart Car

Going from a Bicycle, you will never break even on that Nano.

Its not important that the Volt or Leaf or any PHEV or Electric Car be the cost leader (first generation technology cheaper than old?!?). Its important that they are within striking range. So what your telling me is that over 10 years, a Volt probably costs around 3-4 thosands more than a typical midsize sedan? So the "premium" to drive a Volt is only ~400 a year? Not too shabby, people pay alot more per year to drive BMWs, Audis, Lexuses, etc.


RE: Still just fuel?
By Spivonious on 11/24/2009 4:42:20 PM , Rating: 2
This isn't going between classes of cars. The volt is a mid-size sedan. The average mid-size sedan is $25k, not $40k.

If the Volt cost $30k (without tax credits), it would be much more attractive. If it cost $25k it would be a no-brainer.

If the auto companies really want these alternative forms of propulsion to catch on, they need to take a hit for the first couple of years to build demand. Look at how Sony and Microsoft do it with their consoles. Would anyone buy a PS3 if it cost $1000? Of course not, but lower that to $300-$400 and you gain access to a much bigger market.


RE: Still just fuel?
By mindless1 on 11/24/2009 4:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
No, it really is important that you break even as it's the whole point. Take that away and all you're left with is the ghostly concept that there was no energy or resource usage in making a new car nor waste in retiring the present one.

Paying a premium for a volt is not in any way the same as a premium for more luxury, quality or features.


RE: Still just fuel?
By Keeir on 11/23/2009 1:48:47 PM , Rating: 2
Too bad we already know this information

EPA testing cycle says that for an -average- person in 2001,

driving the Volt 100 city miles would require

.434 gallons of gasoline AND 25 kWh (measured at the Wall, not the battery)

The intent is to make the city miles match the 2008 city cycle, so this would include some hot/cold starts.

(As a side note, if Lithium Ion has an approx charging efficieny of .84 going into Automobile style batterys using a 220V charger. Most Lithium Ion batteries leak very gradually if at all. Unless your leaving a Plug-in for a couple weeks between usage, it is unlikey to leak significant charge)


RE: Still just fuel?
By mindless1 on 11/24/2009 4:54:58 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on what you call significant. Considering the goal of constantly charged batteries over years of time, yes there is a loss to leakage that can't be ignored as all the losses have to be summed to see the true efficiency. That self-discharge won't mean much relative to battery capacity degradation or charging loss in particular, and we all "know" batteries are always going to meet the perfect lab test results, right?

Time will tell, we have to move forward and I for one am glad others are paying the premium to be beta testers.


Wouldn't it be easier...
By SublimeSimplicity on 11/23/2009 12:01:09 PM , Rating: 2
...to fix the way electric vehicles are being rated?

If a "100mpg" electric vehicle won't get you 100 miles in half the fuel cost as a 50mpg ICE/Hybrid, then maybe the 100mpg rating is wrong. People are used to the mpg rating, I don't see it going away until electric vehicles make up at least 50% of the market.




RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By mdogs444 on 11/23/2009 12:05:51 PM , Rating: 3
Perhaps we just dont allow electric vehicles to post their ratings in MPG, since it makes no sense.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Keeir on 11/23/2009 1:17:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Perhaps we just dont allow electric vehicles to post their ratings in MPG, since it makes no sense.


Hrm, right now this isn't actually the case. The EPA allows electric vechile owners to advertise a "petroleum equivalent" MPG. Yet, I believe the actual EPA stickers are marked with Consumption from the Wall

IE. (Example, EV-1 City I believe)
30 kWh/100 miles

Suggested Plug-in testins combine both gasoline and electric. It would be easier if we used the same method as much of Europe
(Volt's supposed ratings)
230 MPG or .434 gallon/100 miles
AND!
25 kWh/100 miles (from the Wall)

If we throw in the Prius as 2 gallon/100 miles, it should be easy enough for a consumer to find that for 100 miles at 3 dollar gas and 15 cent per kWh electricity

Prius = 6 dollars
EV-1 = 4.5 dollars
Volt= 5.1 dollars

I suggest we move away from MPG, and more towards an Energy (measure in the purchasable quanities) per 100 miles of cycle for all types of Input. Maybe Natural Gas can be BTUs per 100 miles?

Edmunds way just means -more- fidly with the numbers...


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By AnnihilatorX on 11/23/2009 2:43:38 PM , Rating: 2
Why not just

Miles per kWh
or even better, Kilometre per kWhr (Can't people ditch miles and gallon already)

Everyone know how much kwh of electricity their utilities cost.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Spuke on 11/23/2009 3:20:54 PM , Rating: 2
Baseline in my area is .07/kWh but with the surcharges and taxes it ends up costing .19/kWh. That was last month.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Keeir on 11/23/2009 5:08:57 PM , Rating: 2
Well lets look at Miles per kWh

Volt then would be labeled
230 MPG or .434 gallons/100 miles
AND
4 MPkWh or 25 kWh/100 miles
?

Equation to Find Cost per "Year"

15,000 Miles * (1/230 * Cost of Gas + 1/4 * Cost of Electricity) = Yearly Cost

or

15,000/100 * (.434 * Cost of Gas + 25 * Cost of Electricity) = Yearly Cost

Between the two equations, I think #2 is the easier to figure quickly (only "easy" division). Also #2 results in numbers greater than 1 for the most part, so less decimal confusion. They are really just a different way of expressing the same thing of course, but I think the concept of to travel and average 100 miles in the Volt (or other PHEV) I will need 25 kWh and .434 gallons of gas is more clear than the 230 MPG and 4 MPkWh.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By CharonPDX on 11/24/2009 1:30:04 AM , Rating: 2
KWh/100mi would be good.

And we don't even have to do the 'both MPG and this' thing; as gasoline contains energy that can be converted to KWh. 10 gallons of gas contains approximately 350 KWh of energy. And, wouldn't you know it, a 35 MPG car can go 350 miles on 10 gallons. Nice, simple basis for comparison to put on the sticker.

So said 35 MPG car would have a KWh/100mi rating of 121. The big problem to Americans is that with "MPG", a higher number means more efficient, while in KWh/100mi, a LOWER number means more efficient. In some countries (Canada, for example,) they are used to this.

So maybe for the U.S., "mi/10KWh" would be better. The above 35 MPG car would have a rating here of "10", while a Prius would have a "14", etc.

Plug-in hybrids should have two ratings listed, one for "pure electric", and one for "hybrid", to show the difference. Some organizations/people (GM, for example,) just want the 'combined, based on "typical" usage' number reported, but there is a big difference with some kinds of driving. For example, with a conventional gas (or even conventional gas/electric hybrid,) or full plug-in-electric vehicle, the "highway" mileage is generally the same, wether the distance travelled is 5 miles or 500. But in a plug-in hybrid, the first few electric-only miles would have a completely different rating than further miles.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Keeir on 11/24/2009 1:55:46 PM , Rating: 2
Err... Not so simple.

The fundamanetal ideal behind any EPA ratings is to give a customer the ability to compare the operating costs of two seperate cars.

Reducing all Energy in kWh efficieny would give you an idea which car was more efficient (although not Well-> Wheel, only Tank to Wheel), it would be nearly impossible to determine which car was less expensive to operate comparing NG, BEV, PHEV, EREV, Diesel or Gasoline (or combinations of these)

Even Miles/10kWh give something that is hard to determine. The only way to combine MPG and Miles/10kWh is complicated division. I think Americans can learn, especially if we transition over 10 years by labeling 25 kWh/100 miles or 4 MpkWh. Consumption figures will allow easier comparison between cars (IE, its easier to compare .434 gallon/100 miles and 25 kWh to 2 gallon/100 miles than 230 MPG & 40 miles/10 kWh to 50 MPG)

Side Note:

The suggestion that PHEV give pure electric and Hybrid doesn't consider the whole scope of cars currently availible. Some PHEV are never going to be pure electric on the HWY cycle or don't drain completely on pure electric. Instead they mix the electric in varying mixes, giving different results for 10 miles, 20 miles, 30 miles, etc.

I know its scary, but even current EPA ratings are just guesses about how people drive. Who gets the EPA ratings? I know I exceed by 20%+, and not because of HWY miles, but because I drive differently than the Cycles. Sure its possible that a Volt driver will get drastically different marks than 230 MPG (.434 gallons/100 miles) and 25 KWh/100 miles, a 20% variance is over 40 MPG! Fundamentally though, its hard for me to see how the end cost will vary more than 20% (As you use more gas, you use less electricity. As you use less gas, you use more electricity.) Its hard for me to see how an AER of 40 miles electric (on 10 kWh) and CS of 45/40 (EXAMPLE!) is easier for a customer to compare to 51/48 MPG.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 8:31:57 PM , Rating: 2
Your Volt calculations are off. Closer to $2.70 and not $5.10 per 100 miles since the average KWh in the US is $0.10 and not $0.25. Actually it could be even cheaper since many electric companies are setting up home-chargers with special low-rates for overnight charging when there is an overcapacity of power.

Surprisingly, the Volt gets about 5 miles per KWh which is much better than the EV1 with the benefit of stronger performance and moving a lot more car. I mean really, two pennies per mile is really good. A Prius is about a nickel per mile.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Keeir on 11/24/2009 1:36:26 PM , Rating: 2
Umm. No.

Back when Chevy announced 230 MPG, they also stated 25 kWh/100 miles, from the Wall

The Testing used to discover the electricity used also includes hours and hours of soaking time.

Its very possible that the Volt gets ~4.5-5 miles per kWh from the battery

Using GM's figures of 230 MPG AND 25 kWh/100 miles compared to other car's City figures should be appropriate for City Drivers.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By mindless1 on 11/24/2009 4:58:50 PM , Rating: 2
Get a few more people charging their cars overnight, and watch that overcapacity of power disappear.

The cost per mile is pretty high, you have to consider what the extra money spent would yield drawing interest in a bank.


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Firebat5 on 11/25/2009 12:43:06 AM , Rating: 2
I got a better idea. Lets dispense of the stupid law forcing auto-makers to build cars that meet certain fuel efficiency standards and go back to letting them build the cars we want to buy, at the price we wanna buy em for...


RE: Wouldn't it be easier...
By Firebat5 on 11/25/2009 1:02:17 AM , Rating: 2
What does the federal government have to do with all this? That's a really good question. Our government shouldn't have anything to do w/forcing automakers to make/test vehicles that meet the its "standards", then make available such testing on the window of every new vehicle. But alas it is foisted upon us all anyway.

You'll find the anwer to my first question here->
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/us...

See (a)(2) and (e)


How about Megahertz?
By danrien on 11/23/2009 1:32:55 PM , Rating: 2
I propose we use megahertz. Or maybe the number of cores in the car.




RE: How about Megahertz?
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 8:40:57 PM , Rating: 2
6.0 × 10-5 megahertz?


RE: How about Megahertz?
By DFranch on 11/24/2009 12:45:22 PM , Rating: 2
Does that mean I can overclock it?


We use this argument in car sales
By Nik00117 on 11/23/2009 12:01:47 PM , Rating: 5
Often times getting Hybrids is difficult so we have to talk to consumers about how little they maybe savings in total which this make sense.

Example, a Ford Fusion with the 2.5L EPA ratings is 23/34 coming to a combined fuel efficiency of 28.5

The Hybrid gets 41/36 which is a combined efficiency of 38.5.

So ask you this question, you last vehicle got 18 MPG and your now getting 28 MPG. What does that save you, say over the course of 1,000 miles at $4.00 a gallon. Well the 18 MPG car uses 55 gallons which comes out to a cost of $220

The 28 MPG car uses 35 gallons which comes out to a cost of $140

And the Hybrid? That comes out to $103

So here are the numbers (all cars are 10 MPG better then each other)

Old Car: $220
I4 Fusion: $140
Hybrid: $105

Old Car to I4 Fusion dramatic affect of $80. Fusion to Hybrid? $35 and to make that Hybrid technology pay for itself (it costs about $5,000) you'll have to drive 142,857 miles which at an average rate of 12k a year you'll own that puppy for just under 12 years.

So yes having a "Price to run" makes more sense then MPG as in my example you can see why.




MPG vs. GPM
By titan7 on 11/24/2009 1:03:50 AM , Rating: 3
If your family has two vehicles, a small car that gets 34MPG and truck that gets 16MPG. They are driven equal distances each year. You need to replace one of the two vehicles with a newer version and have narrowed things down to either A) upgrade the 34mpg car to a 50mpg one (almost 50% more MPG!) or B) upgrade the 16mpg truck with a 20mpg truck (only 25% more MPG). Fortunately all that matters for this upgrade is amount of fuel you'll save.

Which vehicle gets replaced with a newer version?

If we can't switch to more logical, albeit unfamilar, metric litres per kilometre style which would make the answer of B obvious without doing any math then what chance does this have where gasoline, ethanol, diesel, and electricity all have different prices that rise and fall differently based on global markets and acts of god?




good idea
By Kuroyama on 11/23/2009 12:03:54 PM , Rating: 2
I figure my Prius will make it to 150K miles with $5K in maintenance (it's a Toyota so shouldn't need much), and then depreciation will have taken the value down to ~$2K. Under these assumptions then gas will only be 25% of the total of gas+depreciation+maintenance. At such a point then improving MPG really makes minimal difference to the total cost of ownership, whereas crazy numbers like 300+MPG make it seem like a Leaf will be really cheap to own. So, while the think the cost of ownership numbers they come up with will be somewhat ad-hoc, it is better than posting crazy MPG numbers.




This Article Does a Bad Job...
By jdietz on 11/23/2009 3:53:23 PM , Rating: 2
Of explaining how the different numbers were arrived at.

The EPA calculates their numbers by driving on a test track for a certain number of miles and computing fuel used. They use different test tracks for City and Highway MPG. I don't know how EPA accounts for the use of electricity (for plug-in vehicles). If someone knows...by all means share!

How does Edmunds get their numbers? Why do they think it costs more to fuel a hybrid car than the EPA? How do they account for the cost of electricity (for plug-in vehicles)?




Meh
By MrPoletski on 11/24/2009 4:19:01 AM , Rating: 2
Electric cars should be given a 'miles per coulomb'

Yeah my electric gets 80 MPC (might have to be kilo-/mega-coulombs actually but hey).

Then all you need is a slide rule to convert one into the equivelant of the other.

So 1 gallon of fuel is eqivelant to X coulombs of charge in your battery...




Because
By hashish2020 on 11/24/2009 5:57:04 AM , Rating: 2
Electricity and gas cost the same everywhere and all the time, and are totally a useful fudge figure, like the way the pretend estimated how many people would buy cars during cash for clunkers....

I love it when magazines made for morons who want only basic linear relationships in life (which are impossible) and don't actually want to use their brain affect the world for the rest of us. What's next, putting fat in a log function because the body absorbs a smaller fraction when a ton is eaten in the same sitting?




good idea
By Looey on 11/24/2009 11:19:28 AM , Rating: 2
How much is it going to cost to reycle Prius batteries and how much do they cost to replace? Are you going to drop them off at Walmart in a shopping cart and drive off? People are suckers to buy hybrids.




So basically...
By EasyC on 11/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: So basically...
By mdogs444 on 11/23/2009 12:03:40 PM , Rating: 4
Not only that, but doing so may make people realize that hybrids really might not be the better alternative to the non-hybrid version. If, for example, the Ford Escape is going to cost you $xxx.xx dollars per month, while the Ford Escape Hybrid is going to cost you $xxx.xx + $xx.xx, the buyer may opt for the cheaper, non hybrid car.


RE: So basically...
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 1:12:58 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, cost is fluid. MPG doesn't fluctuate based upon numerous market and location factors. I would be happy if cars that can be plugged in also stated their 'efficiency' in miles per KW. That way the consumer can do there own math. A gallon of unleaded is $2.39 and a kilowatt is $0.09 where I am, but I imagine the numbers will be vary based upon where you are.
Also, some people want to use less petroleum because it drains the US economy and helps fund the terrorists. For that, leaning more on coal/nuclear/hydro is even worth it at no cost savings.


RE: So basically...
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 1:15:38 PM , Rating: 3
Also, Edmund's and their 'proprietary formula' sound like the company is trying to market a product; like a FICO score.


RE: So basically...
By Ratinator on 11/23/2009 1:16:14 PM , Rating: 2
That would be a far more useful piece of information to see.


RE: So basically...
By Keeir on 11/23/2009 1:40:09 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Actually, cost is fluid. MPG doesn't fluctuate based upon numerous market and location factors. I would be happy if cars that can be plugged in also stated their 'efficiency' in miles per KW. That way the consumer can do there own math.


Hrm. Buried in the Original Volt MPG GM press release AND discussed during the press conference is just that information.

According to a new type of cycle developed by the EPA/ANL based on a set of driving , a Volt plug-in for "city" will consume 230 MPG AND! 25 kWh/100 miles (wall)

Of course, reporters jumped on the High MPG number and ignored that it depends on using a fair amount of electricity.


RE: So basically...
By puckalicious on 11/23/2009 2:11:47 PM , Rating: 2
Is this what the argument has boiled down to now? That if you use oil you fund terrorists? Those damn Alaskan and Canadian terrorists drive me crazy too, but c'mon. And don't get me started on those Mexican & South American guys.

FYI... we get the vast majority of our oil from places OTHER than the middle east.


RE: So basically...
By mcnabney on 11/23/2009 8:24:07 PM , Rating: 2
Petroleum is a global commodity. An interuption in Nigerian oil exports push up the price of oil everywhere.

But you are correct, Canada is our #1 dealer. Venezuala and Mexico are up there too. We still get tons from Saudi, Iraq, Sudan, Nigeria, and the misc gulf states.


RE: So basically...
By hashish2020 on 11/24/2009 5:58:26 AM , Rating: 2
You need to look up the word fungible


RE: So basically...
By nafhan on 11/23/2009 12:41:26 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Edmunds is saying that people are too dumb to do simple math themselves
Yes, some people are, and some people would rather just not have to do the math. If I can look at a single number and not need to do any calculations, that would make comparing vehicles much easier.
MPG for plug-in hybrids, as mentioned in the article, can be misleading as they depend on the assumption that the driver does not go far out of the electric only range. A single number that could be used to compare plug in hybrids, "normal" hybrids, and conventional ICE vehicles would be useful. Car companies pushing plug-ins won't like this, though.
A more realistic option would probably be for Edmunds to just come up with a cost comparison tool on their website.


RE: So basically...
By TheChaosMachine on 11/23/2009 12:50:21 PM , Rating: 3
The problem with showing a cost is that the actual cost at the time you purchase will change greatly with increased energy costs.

A consumer buying a standard engine or hybrid vehicle is presented with Miles per Gallon and is able to make a determination of the cost to fill the tank with simple math. The MPG doesn't change over time, just the cost of fuel. If you start giving people the current cost, and no way to adjust the value over time (even mentally) the purchasing decision is actually a less informed one than before.


RE: So basically...
By Keeir on 11/23/2009 12:59:06 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that within Electricity at least there is a 5 fold spread between the cheapest rates in the US and the most expensive

Gasoline is typically 1.5 (if you ignore Hawaii and Alaska anyway)


RE: So basically...
By JuPO5b4REqAYbSPUlMcP on 11/23/2009 12:50:04 PM , Rating: 3
Even intelligent people will not want to sit there and make 30+ calculations and comparisons when car shopping. This can only help consumers, mathematically capable or not.


RE: So basically...
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 11/23/2009 1:42:19 PM , Rating: 2
The benefit of having a uniform pre-applied equation is that it will be done the same way for all vehicles, and it will be done accurately. People generally are not as smart as you, but they also lack training in applying specific equations in the proper situation, which they could readily understand, but they do other things for a living.


RE: So basically...
By adiposity on 11/23/2009 2:17:22 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Edmunds is saying that people are too dumb to do simple math themselves. Anyone SHOULD be able to calculate how much Car A will cost and how much Car B will cost..


I'm sorry, are you serious? Why don't you post here, how, upon walking up on a car in a dealership, that is a Volt style hybrid, or pure electric, you can calculate "easily" what the cost of the vehicle will be?

Do they tell you how much power will be used to charge the battery? Do they tell you how much gas will be used to charge the battery? Does the average person know the cost per watt of electric energy, or the efficiency of the charging system in an electric vehicle?

There is no way you can walk up on a Volt and say, "hmm, this will cost me about $xxx per month" unless you have already done a lot of research. Unfortunately, the research on un-released vehicles is not going to be very good, so for a new model, you are even more in the dark.

This is not even to mention the fluctuating cost of gasoline and power, and how those will almost certainly be affected by release of electric vehicles.

This is not a question of "simple math." It is not easy to accurately gauge the cost of any vehicle, let alone one that uses two fuels in an uncertain combination.

-Dan


RE: So basically...
By mmatis on 11/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: So basically...
By Firebat5 on 11/25/2009 1:21:31 AM , Rating: 2
Dan, I'm sorry but your asking the wrong question.

I said it above and i'll say it again, the real question is why the federal government is involved at all. ITS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!

If the consumer needs to know this information, the privately owned dealership, or car company will make the information available to him/her. If it is not made available, the consumer can speak with his/her own money and trot his rear over to the NEXT dealership/company who will. Or maybe he can pay for the latest issue of "Consumer Reports" or whatever other "consumer advocate" publication might be around, or speak w/someone he knows who owns the said vehicle, or any of the infinite solutions the free market may contrive to part him from his mula.

Please, take responsiblility for this yourself, instead of making everyone else pay for the 1000's of different people who: made this law, currently enforce it, and help companies comply w/it.

-Doran


RE: So basically...
By adiposity on 11/25/2009 2:32:10 PM , Rating: 2
I don't disagree, I just think it's naive to suggest that all it takes is some simple math skills to judge the cost of operating a car. That's a joke.

-Dan


"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates














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