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EBay fights tooth and nail in court over decision which could spell doom to its apparel and cosmetics sales

EBay has suffered some hard times of late, but has pushed hard offering new growth strategies like user-created seller software.  However, a new court ruling in France may undermine eBay's efforts by cutting out a large portion of its business.

On eBay, a number of designer brand name purses, accessories, and perfumes sell every day.  It goes without saying that a large portion of these products are fake.  The number of fake Louis Vuitton items alone is staggering.  Of the smaller portion of items that are authentic, fewer still are from authorized retailers.

While this is good for eBay and the customer, it’s not such a happy trend for designers who making a killing off decadently high prices for the elite goods.  Louis Vuitton finally took eBay to court and now has won a decisive victory.

In a broad ruling by the Commercial Court of Paris on June 30, it was ruled in favor of LVMH Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton that eBay must block all sales of counterfeit products and block sales of genuine perfumes from unauthorized retailers.  The decision opens the floodgates by setting a precedent by which other designer perfume brands can ban eBay sales.

EBay states that it is technically infeasible to automatically determine authentic items from fakes and it would be prohibitively expensive to manually detect fakes.  EBay is petitioning a higher French court, the French Court of Appeals, to grant a reprieve from the lower court injunction.  This reprieve would allow sales to continue as eBay appeals the decision.

If the decision sticks, it would virtually doom eBay's perfume sales of Christian Dior, Guerlain, Givenchy, and Kenzo brands (all marketed by LVMH) as currently there is no licensed LVMH that sells on eBay.  EBay may be safe in the U.S., though as the sales of genuine products through unauthorized channels, known as "gray marketeering" is generally legal in the U.S. as it is thought to benefit consumers.

The court decision additionally ordered eBay to pay damages to various LVMH units totaling $60.8M USD.  If a reprieve is not granted by the appeals court and eBay is deemed noncompliant with the ruling, it faces daily fines of 50k € ($80,000 USD).  Such fines add up quickly, as Microsoft found out in similar European ruling -- damages leveled against it eventually amounted to $1.4B USD.  The appeals court will rule on Friday.

French attorney Alexandre Menais, who works for eBay states, "We have to demonstrate that the injunctions are not technically realistic, and are impossible to execute."

LVMH’s outside counsel, Didier Malka of Jeantet Associés in Paris is unsympathetic, stating, "LVMH Group do not intend to hold off enforcing the injunction."

The new ruling could seriously dent eBay's designer merchandise sales and is likely to lead to similar legal complaints.  However, more troubling for the company are the broader implications.

The unauthorized reseller portion in particular poses an intriguing legal question.  Can retailers prevent the resale of their products which customers legally paid for?  If this is the precedent set, eBay could be in for a world of additional trouble in European Courts.

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More French Madness?
By jamdunc on 7/9/2008 4:55:50 PM , Rating: 3
Would it not be easier now for Ebay to just pull out of France?

And is this punishment only enforcable inside France?

I'd like to see what the French Public would say if they suddenly woke up to find that all French IP's were 'banned' from Ebay to protect itself.

I'm probably missing lots of info in my argunebts but it makes sense in my head with the little info I have :)




RE: More French Madness?
By ghost101 on 7/9/08, Rating: -1
RE: More French Madness?
By kinnoch on 7/9/2008 5:11:53 PM , Rating: 5
This real beef of the ruling has nothing to do with counterfits. Whats important here is that the court is saying that some one who purchased a real LVHM bag, and wants to resell it on ebay, can't do it because they are not an authorized reseller.


RE: More French Madness?
By ghost101 on 7/9/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By erikejw on 7/9/2008 5:24:26 PM , Rating: 5
Do I see a trend, everytime a US company can't walk over EU laws everyone screams, can't they pull out of EU and punish all those socialist so they see who are right, they so gonna miss US companies, they can't live without them ;)


RE: More French Madness?
By B3an on 7/10/2008 2:22:56 AM , Rating: 1
I was just thinking that myself, and i'm sick of hearing it from the fascist yanks on this site.
It's a perfect example of one of the many reasons why the rest of world generally dislikes the US. They have no respect for other countries laws/way of life.


RE: More French Madness?
By eyebeeemmpawn on 7/10/2008 7:21:50 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
It's a perfect example of one of the many reasons why the rest of world generally dislikes the US. They have no respect for other countries laws/way of life.


Well hey, just look at our leadership...soon we'll all just be a big bunch of capitalist crusaders ;)


RE: More French Madness?
By 16nm on 7/10/2008 12:53:38 PM , Rating: 4
Look, this has nothing to do with the US so let's drop it. The previous poster is correct that these are the laws in France, like it or not. All that eBay France needs to do is disallow the listing of any LVMH products. The idea that they would need to abandon France entirely is silly.

What's really sucky for the French people, which Jason aludes to, is that if one of them want to sell one of these products -- which they legally own -- then they may not, and it would seem to me that, according to French law, they may not legally sell it either through eBay or otherwise. It is hard for me to understand how a law like this could exist in a modern society like France. Or does it? ;)


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 4:57:50 PM , Rating: 3
Could be that easy, but I suspect not. IMO it's not so much a matter if just saying that it's disallowed. It's a matter of enforcing it, policing it, and being responsible for those that violate it.

If illegal clones are sold by a street vendor, does the city it happens in get sued and have to pay for having allowed it to happen within their venue, using their facilities ? Maybe they do in France, I don't know.

It's probably a matter of how much eBay fees need to be in France to enforce this and all others that will come due to precedence (or to pay the court fees) and whether they're sufficiently profitable/competitive as a result.

That said, I don't fault France for what's going on (heck, I'm a quarter French heritage-wise), they're allowed to do whatever they want no matter how archaic or how progressive something may be. It's their thing.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:03:38 AM , Rating: 4
Well, 1st of all that law is totally idiotic. Not being able to resell your unused or unneeded wares that you own is freaking moronic, period.

French law is a bastardized set of archaic former monarchy and near totalitarian drivel meant to benefit the highest class.

Get over it, it's going to change sooner rather than later.


RE: More French Madness?
By theapparition on 7/10/2008 12:10:41 PM , Rating: 3
OK......OK

Everyone stop right now. This is simply not true.

Ebay is being asked to stop the sale of NEW merchandise by unathorized vendors, and of counterfeit items.

Individuals will still be able to sell a used handbag, or half bottle of perfume as USED. They will not however be allowed to sell it in an Ebay Store as new.

Apparantly, it is illegal in France to sell items if your not an autorized seller, so I don't see anything morally wrong with shutting down the Ebay "back door".

If the French dislike it so much, they need to petition to thier lawmakers, plus vote against the manufacturers who engage in such practices by not buying them.

I mean, it's only a stupid purse after all. :-)


RE: More French Madness?
By 16nm on 7/10/2008 12:58:39 PM , Rating: 3
So if a Frenchman received some perfume and never used it, he would have to use it once (dropping the value, of course) to legally sell it to another Frenchman? That seems crazy to me but the law is the law.


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 5:05:08 PM , Rating: 2
They could indicate in the auction that it's used, but saying the only use has been to look at the packaging really hard. :-)

But in truth the opposite is more often true. Got something in the mail yesterday from an eBay purchase. Presented as "new", "NIB". Well, it was more like "UIB" (not used substantially, but certainly used -- including the opening of several of the previously sealed accessory sort of bags that comes with things even if it was neatly repacked). Needless to say their seller ratings for description accuracy isn't going to be great from me.


RE: More French Madness?
By omnicronx on 7/10/2008 10:11:27 AM , Rating: 4
You are kidding yourself if you think this was done for any other reason other than self preservation of french companies.

By the way I am not American, and I am not anti France, but why should a country of 30 million in which only a fraction of those are eBay users be able to change the way a company does business, especially when this is a gray area with french laws, let alone every other country in the world.

The way I see it, you should be able to sell any product as open box or used, regardless if it is counterfeit or not, its the new products that I have a problem with. You don't see electronics companies going around suing ebay because users are not registered resellers. It won't be too long until stuff likes this (10 inch quality ball point pen, free gift included: Louis Vuitton purse. starting bid 20$) happening regardless if ebay stop users from selling these products.


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:13:53 AM , Rating: 2
LOL Knockoff Scalping, I LOVE THAT IDEA!!!


RE: More French Madness?
By 16nm on 7/10/2008 1:11:10 PM , Rating: 5
Let's really understand the problem here. Louis Vuitton make a product that can be duplicated for next to nothing and sold for the same. If LV really want to put an end to this then they should be trying to sell a $500 bag that is worth $500, not just because it has "LV" printed on it!


RE: More French Madness?
By bespoke on 7/10/2008 1:42:55 PM , Rating: 2
I think this is a really good point, but then I'm a guy and I don't understand the concept of designer hand bags at all. :)


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 4:54:35 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Let's really understand the problem here. Louis Vuitton make a product that can be duplicated for next to nothing and sold for the same. If LV really want to put an end to this then they should be trying to sell a $500 bag that is worth $500, not just because it has "LV" printed on it!


And when microsoft sell vista 2x the price in europe and don't allow to buy in us? (this is less the case now but that was the case at the beginning)

You can't justify counterfeit. Look ipod if you want an other example. The is even quality problem.

And the point isn't the price of vuiton product. If you believe it's overpriced, you have the right to try to sell other bags for an better price, but not just a copy, your one creation.

Take an other case well now on this kind of site.
QX9770 price: $1399.0
Q9450 price: $316
Is there any real reason that could justify QX9770 cost 4.5 time more than Q9450

You can't justify your right to counterfeit because price of non vital thing seems overpriced for you.


RE: More French Madness?
By jskirwin on 7/10/2008 1:11:58 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
It's a perfect example of one of the many reasons why the rest of world generally dislikes the US.


Typical for a European to presume to know what the rest of the world thinks.

quote:
They have no respect for other countries laws/way of life.


This of course is the reason why your nation is a state in the USA, and why you've grown up speaking American English. It also explains why Japan - a nation which my father helped liberate and occupy FWIW - now speaks English and has lost its culture and identity. Right...

When Americans act we are "imperialistic," when we don't act we're "isolationist." We just can't seem to win either way which is why most Americans don't give a rat's arse what the rest of the world thinks of us.

My country is big and it makes mistakes. But to quote Machiavelli "Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil." So the rest of the world may hate us now, but just wait until the next tsunami, or the next time a nation is invaded by its neighbor. We'll be called upon to act. And most likely we will - because we're the type of people who do that - not the type that claims to know what the rest of the world thinks.


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 4:17:47 PM , Rating: 2
The Machiavelli quote is probably the best thing I've read all month.

It's been too long...


RE: More French Madness?
By Pythias on 7/11/2008 5:35:51 PM , Rating: 2
Can we get a 6 here?


RE: More French Madness?
By robinthakur on 7/30/2008 5:35:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Typical for a European to presume to know what the rest of the world thinks.


At least a European might very well care to find out or enquire what the rest of the world thinks and can typically place most countries on a map, which apparently is not the case in the US.

quote:
This of course is the reason why your nation is a state in the USA, and why you've grown up speaking American English.


That doesn't make sense, American english is a bastardised version of English, for people who care little about spelling and grammar. Moving on..
quote:
When Americans act we are "imperialistic," when we don't act we're "isolationist." We just can't seem to win either way which is why most Americans don't give a rat's arse what the rest of the world thinks of us.


You make that very obvious. Simply act like you care and there wouldn't be a problem. Learn from history. When the rest of the world sees America's bizarre actions in Iraq, what on earth were you expecting people to think? If you lie about the reasons to start a war (of all things), I think its one of the worst things imaginable in this life. Think of all the lives lost and families destroyed because of that lie.

quote:
just wait until the next tsunami, or the next time a nation is invaded by its neighbor. We'll be called upon to act. And most likely we will - because we're the type of people who do that - not the type that claims to know what the rest of the world thinks.


Are you sure you'll be able to afford to? The thing is, when you spend all your money on a phoney war to liberate the oil from the ground in Iraq, and it goes badly wrong to the tune of trillions of dollars, helping to bring on a global recession, another war is the last thing you can afford. America is spread thinly at the moment, much like Rome was once upon a time.

Its all very well not caring what the rest of the world thinks if you're genuinely doing good, the problem is that you merely think you're doing good when in reality, the world sees ignorance, self-interest and greed as the main calling cards, and to mention American Foreign policy in the same sentence as Machiavelli is implying a level of finesse and skillful diplomacy (not to mention charm) which doesn't exist under the present administration.


RE: More French Madness?
By dever on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By Pythias on 7/11/2008 5:34:12 PM , Rating: 1
Fascist? Er how does free market = fascism? If anything, the EU is Fascist.

And who are you calling a yank?


RE: More French Madness?
By derwin on 7/12/2008 4:37:39 PM , Rating: 2
First off, US isn't close to facism.
That word is too often used ignorantly to just be insulting.
What I think what they want to say by calling someone facist is that the government does not respect certain general liberties or does not do justice to a particular sect of its people, or on the other-hand is militarily the aggresor - none of which have anything to do with facism, just Nazi Germany.
Facism is a free market economy with government control of certain producing capital, such as arms factories, oil refineries and steel mills. So Pythias, to answer your question:
quote:
how does free market = fascism?
A facist state is also almost entierly a free market.


RE: More French Madness?
By kinnoch on 7/9/2008 5:25:00 PM , Rating: 3
If thats the law, then I agree, but every article i've read on this issue has been unsure if it is or isn't :)


RE: More French Madness?
By phxfreddy on 7/9/08, Rating: -1
RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/9/08, Rating: -1
RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/9/08, Rating: -1
RE: More French Madness?
By anoitos on 7/9/2008 10:20:54 PM , Rating: 5
People just do not seem to be able to see the big picture.

Someone says that if you buy their product, you then get fed up with it, YOU CANNOT SELL IT OFF ON EBAY BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL !!!!!! this is an outrage...

People seem to think .."if that is the law then fine.."

NO.. just because it is a law, it does not mean it is just...or reasonable..


RE: More French Madness?
By Silver2k7 on 7/10/2008 2:11:59 AM , Rating: 2
Yes its a incredibly stupid thing to do of a lawmaker.. if an owner of an item can't sell it because its considered illegal, then there is something really fishy going on..


RE: More French Madness?
By tmouse on 7/10/2008 7:24:26 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry but that’s only part of the big picture. Have you ever looked at eBay? The majority of these types of products are probably knock offs. No one would take those kinds of losses in those volumes. I agree the reselling of a purchased item should be legal or at least force the original seller to repurchase using a well defined publically available depreciation schedule so customers can weigh the risks of making the purchase in the first place. The shear number of items available makes the assumption that even any significant portion is real dubious at best. Also think about it maybe purses are an item that someone could get tired of, or own too many but who pays the exorbitant prices for designer perfume and resells it for less?


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:09:39 AM , Rating: 2
Well defined depreciation schedule?

That's preposterous!!! That would be too costly to enforce and too costly to manage!!!

Also, knock offs are part of what the real thing expensive and worthwhile, because you know and can prove you have the real thing. In general I think ebay may actually be adding value to the real brands that pass thru as knock offs, because the people buying the knockoffs would never really be able to afford the real thing, but they are upping the demands for them.


RE: More French Madness?
By Nik00117 on 7/10/2008 2:31:55 AM , Rating: 4
Thank you, if i was Ebay I'd tell france to go fuck itself and take down the french IP and say we no longer do business in france cause its too restrictive for us.

Quite frankly I live in the EU and rulings like this piss me off. I'm a businessman by trade and heart and feel that if someone wants to sell counterfeit goods and the buyer knows its counterfeit then why not? Now if a buyer doesn't want a counterfeit good, and it is counterfeit then report it as fraud to ebay.


RE: More French Madness?
By Aloonatic on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By Ashrac on 7/10/2008 6:37:54 AM , Rating: 4
Because one is an invasion of a person's personal "space" while the other is a consumer choice.

The only way it should be banned/illegal is if sellers are purposefully misleading people into the belief that they are buying a genuine product, and then they are receiving a fake. That is a scam, and is illegal in most every economic system.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 6:54:02 AM , Rating: 2
counterfeit too.
If I start to sale film copy or software with the mention
"I'm not the owner over the rights but I sale you the product for 1/10 of the price" doesn't transform the illegal thing in legal thing...


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 5:14:26 PM , Rating: 2
I see your point, but there's somewhat of a distinction between a clone and a copy. Copying a movie is to, well, make a copy that still has all the same actors in it, etc. A movie clone would be perhaps the same movie but make with no-name actors with someone's consumer camera, etc. The movie was manufactured from scratch but with design inspiration from the original. Perfumes, to be actually copied, would be more along the lines of a Star Trek matter duplicator thingie.

Of course, there also are "genuine clones" where the same factory that makes the originals has an "unauthorized night shift" making additional units on the side. :-)


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 6:18:41 PM , Rating: 2
even for a movie clone their is rights ;)

The point is somebody do a job, then produce then sale a product. Other don't do the job, just produce and sale. Obviously it's lower cost (and I don't even speak about quality and so one). If you can produce, you are able to sale your own line of product at the cost you want, there is no reason to copy or clone others people products.
(In fact there is you use the job and you use the image of other, low cost big gains...)


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 7:00:54 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, quite. The clone still violates rights, the IP rights of the original's design is violated. But it's not a copy, as such as it is with movies or software that's a direct copy. Still illegal. My point wasn't that one was illegal and another not, but that they were different ideas and not completely interchangeable.


RE: More French Madness?
By Aloonatic on 7/10/2008 7:18:02 AM , Rating: 2
You missed the point.

They are both illegal acts.

Just because one doesn't affect you directly and you cannot see how it ever could, doesn't make it legal and OK for people to behave this way.

I was using the assault example to make it personal and to make it more obvious rather than asking if they worked for a business where counterfeit products damage their sales, profits or perceived quality and standards, as this is much more complicated than a punch in the face.

The "Oh, this handbag that should cost £1,000 which I bought for £50 is fake officer? I'm as shocked and outraged as you are, it never crossed my mind" argument is verging on the pathetic.

Ignorance is not a viable defence in the courts.

*bored of having to write everything soooo literally for the slower members of the class.


RE: More French Madness?
By Hare on 7/10/2008 1:51:04 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'm a businessman by trade and heart and feel that if someone wants to sell counterfeit goods and the buyer knows its counterfeit then why not?

Really? I'm having a hard time believing that.

Let's see. Sales decrease if people buy items for 1/6 of the price or less instead of getting the real thing. And please save the "they wouldn't buy the real thing anyway" argument because it doesn't work.

Brand dilutation is also a factor. If everyone has a designer bag that costs an arm and a leg, it no longer has that uniqueness and value. Who wants to pay 1000$ if everyone has a 40$ copy that you can't tell apart from 5m away.

Another thing is that if a person buys a pirate copy and walks around with it someone may take a look at the bag and decide that the quality is not that good. That decreases your quality image even though you had absolutely nothing to do with the pirate copy.

Bottomline: LV perceived as not unique, not worth the cost, brand no longer valued etc.

Someone above said that it may actually benefit LV that these copies are sold. What kind of mushrooms did you eat to come up with that idea???


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:12:19 AM , Rating: 1
Even if it is the law, the law is remnant of a fascist system that controlled the products that the various classes could own.


RE: More French Madness?
By dwalton on 7/9/2008 6:21:24 PM , Rating: 2
Problem is the french court wants to extend their juridistion globally as their ruling applies to all ebay sites viewable from France and not just the Ebay france site, which is ridiculous.

Ebay should simply restrict access of their non french sites from france while having no LVHM products on its french site and telling LVHM go "F" themselves in countries that have consumer rights and laws that don't allow passive hosts to be oppressively responsible for actions of their users.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/9/2008 7:32:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Problem is the french court wants to extend their juridistion globally as their ruling applies to all ebay sites viewable from France and not just the Ebay france site, which is ridiculous. Ebay should simply restrict access of their non french sites from france while having no LVHM products on its french site and telling LVHM go "F" themselves in countries that have consumer rights and laws that don't allow passive hosts to be oppressively responsible for actions of their users.


And USA and RIAA have not push Russian to close Allomfp3? (vs wto deal)


RE: More French Madness?
By dwalton on 7/9/2008 7:55:52 PM , Rating: 2
Its one thing to push the Russian gov't to deal with AllofMP3, its another to totally circumvent a gov't and try to enforce your authority where you have no jurisdiction.

Just because you can access the whole web from france doesn't mean the french courts have authority to regulate the whole internet.


RE: More French Madness?
By Redfoot on 7/10/2008 1:26:50 AM , Rating: 3
Amen. Stop the sales in France if they have such heartburn with it. And as far as the outlandish analogies go, would it be fare for Pearson View or Benjamin Cummings to restrict the resale of my schoolbooks on the site just because they "may" be counterfeit? Or how about (insert whatever nation against free speech here) culling the web of any site it finds repulsive?

I call BS.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 6:10:40 AM , Rating: 1
ok lets take another example where there is no bad eu or bad france versus a nice and great american compagny.

Take the viacom google case.
Why a us court give access to viacom to the logs of youtube?
It is the same case, viacom said google make money on counterfeit things and is responsible.

Now for this part
quote:
Just because you can access the whole web from france doesn't mean the french courts have authority to regulate the whole internet.


If I, foreign, put on youtube a counterfeit thing from viacom, and others foreign people look. In name of what an us court could regulate?

Ok internet is great, ok it's all over the world but that doesn't mean it's moral to accepted that compagnies make big business with things known to be for most part illegal and that those compagnies could simply say "it's too difficult to find the 1% authentic, so we keep the 100% and take the money"

(and for those who just say, fuck the france, ebay go away... (or fuck eu when it's microsoft...), compagnies make business, if compagnies stay, it's just because they win more than they lost, and this is not with the actual dollar value that thing will change...)


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:23:26 AM , Rating: 2
The issues is Viacom and Google/Youtube are in the same country fighting over copyrighted content using that same countries laws.

Even if they have servers in other countries, the home country ban on copy righted viacom content will make them liable for the content they have stored on other servers in other countries, because of ownership.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 5:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
No, no, no
I can't open frenchbay and sold counterfeit microsoft product, even if microsoft isn't a french compagny.
The point is to trade, you must trust so there is some global way of thinking and counterfeit is fight in most countries.

And big compagnies know where to use the law againt the other and play with that.
(example amd vs intel, intestigation in korea, eu...
Nokia, Oracle et IBM has join eu for the condamnation of some microsoft practices.)
Always, we have complain of eu that fined some compagnies like microsoft and so one. But before there is most of the time a big compagny that has use law in a specific area against another...)


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 5:23:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No, no, no I can't open frenchbay and sold counterfeit microsoft product, even if microsoft isn't a french compagny.


But they are a French company. Not headquartered there, but they'll either have a France based company set up there to do French business with or have a partner to act on their behalf there. Along with all the other countries they are in. Wouldn't be surprised if they had software development offices there. If France wanted to take Microsoft to court they'd not likely be filing suit in Redmond, it'd probably be in France against their offices there where their court has jurisdiction.


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 5:44:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No, no, no I can't open frenchbay and sold counterfeit microsoft product, even if microsoft isn't a french compagny.


quote:
But they are a French company. Not headquartered there, but they'll either have a France based company set up there to do French business with or have a partner to act on their behalf there. Along with all the other countries they are in. Wouldn't be surprised if they had software development offices there. If France wanted to take Microsoft to court they'd not likely be filing suit in Redmond, it'd probably be in France against their offices there where their court has jurisdiction.


In that case that would be me which would be take in court by microsoft ;)

So I take again my example but change a little bit the rules

I open frenchbay in France and sold counterfeit microsoft products but only for totoland a country that has no law against counterfeit products. Is it legal?

Or to increase understanding even if the example is a little bit far from counterfeit. I hold a french or us travel compagny and I sold "special" travel in country where child abuse is legal. Is it legal in us? (I know it's not in France)


RE: More French Madness?
By Keeir on 7/15/2008 1:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I can't open frenchbay and sold counterfeit microsoft product, even if microsoft isn't a french compagny.


I think your missing a vital point.

EBay does not produce, ship or directly sell any counterfiet goods. In fact, they would probably perfer mechanize to be 100% legal since it would be higher prices (resulting in more fees) and higher consumer satisfication (return constomers = more fees).


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 4:44:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All they have to do is remove such listings from ebay france surely? Not too hard.


All they need to do is to have someone look at each and every ebay auction to determine which have something from an illegal list of things (and whether the particular seller is an authorized dealer for the particular product). They have to also determine that some brand-name wasn't misspelled to avoid search methods for it. Or just say "perfume" and have a photo of the product so every photo has to be closely inspected for unauthorized product -- so every product made by those companies need to be recognizable by the inspectors. Of course there will have to be many people doing so as to have product specialists each of which need to look at each and every posting made on eBay (presumably on every posting made world-wide that are available for sale in France).

Not a problem so long as one thinks substantial increase in eBay fees isn't a problem seeing as how their fees are so tiny now.


RE: More French Madness?
By kmmatney on 7/10/2008 1:41:10 AM , Rating: 1
This is easy to work out. Since LVHM does not allow any of its "authorized" sellers to sell on Ebay, you simply eliminate all new LVHM items on ebay, since they are obviously fake. If you happen to purchase a real LVHM bag, then maybe you can sell it on Ebay as "used", but not new. Hoever I doubt anyone with the money to buy such a bag would ever sell it used on ebay.


RE: More French Madness?
By Oregonian2 on 7/10/2008 5:32:30 PM , Rating: 2
If you had a used one and don't sell it on eBay, where would you sell it? Sotheby sells bags and perfumes, etc? Or just give it to Goodwill?


RE: More French Madness?
By rcc on 7/14/2008 11:41:26 AM , Rating: 2
Don't be silly. They give the stuff away in truckloads after they've used it once or twice and worn the "new" off. Then someone 'ebays' the whole mess. : )


RE: More French Madness?
By MozeeToby on 7/9/2008 5:18:51 PM , Rating: 2
The counterfeit aspect is valid, though from eBay's standpoint they have no way of knowing if a product is real or not, especially if the buyer never complains because they never realize it. There's also an argument that this isn't eBay's responsibility. What if I rent out a storefront to someone who sells counterfeit goods without my knowledge? Should I be held responsible for my renter's actions?

More important to me is the "authorized retailer" policy. In the US atleast, once you buy a product, the seller has no control over what you do with it; up to and including selling it for a profit. You may as well outlaw garage sales and flea markets.


RE: More French Madness?
By othercents on 7/9/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By mikefarinha on 7/9/2008 6:06:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If someone sells drugs out of your house are you not responsible?

Using absurd analogies doesn't prove your point.


RE: More French Madness?
By SilthDraeth on 7/9/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/9/2008 7:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
Drugs is perhaps not a good analogy. An other, if someone ask you to put a packet in an airplane for 100$. If you don't try to know what is in the packet, are you responsible if it is a bomb?


RE: More French Madness?
By Yossarian22 on 7/10/2008 3:41:43 AM , Rating: 2
Ah, drugs are not a good analogy for a counterfeit purse, eh? A tad bit hyperbolic perhaps?

But a comparison to a bomb, a freaking BOMB , is not a stretch by any means. I mean, a counterfeit purse is directly comparable to an object designed and deployed specifically to kill people, right?


RE: More French Madness?
By nemrod on 7/10/2008 6:20:08 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps, less evident but counterfeit is a loss of money for a country, a compagny. Less money, less job from your ip and that killed people too.
That's not just for fun that usa and american compagnies try to fight counterfeit china thing even sold in china and not in us.


RE: More French Madness?
By Yossarian22 on 7/10/2008 8:14:47 AM , Rating: 2
With the insane prices on these goods, its no surprise that there is a counterfeit market. Anyhow, comparing this to a bomb on a plane is disgusting. When has lower profits form an ip led to as many deaths as a bomb exploding on an airline?


RE: More French Madness?
By tmouse on 7/10/2008 7:43:11 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is even in the US if you have ANY reason to even suspect counterfeit goods are being sold on you property and you take no action you can be charged as an accomplices. Selling something as new for less than half price when it is very publically known that the company producing the items does not sell in bulk to resellers is more than enough evidence that you should have suspicions. What constitutes "reasonable action" is the only debatable part. eBay simply cannot turn a blind eye and say we know nothing...I do not see an easy way out for them. The reseller i.e.; labeled used and not at some ridiculous discount could be overturned or at least not recognized in the US but if it is publically acknowledged that there is no legal grey market (since the company does not sell to redistributors) then that requirement probably would be upheld in the US (after all we do have designers here also and the US government does actively pursue, seize and destroy counterfeits from any source).


RE: More French Madness?
By phxfreddy on 7/9/08, Rating: 0
RE: More French Madness?
By xsilver on 7/9/2008 10:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
The government shouldnt be able to seize property but if the landlord/ebay is being seen doing absolutely NOTHING in a swarm of evidence that something suspicious is going on, there should be some form of prosecution.

Based on the above analogy, it would be like the landlord going over for a yearly inspection to find a drugplant inside. The landlord then walks away and does nothing!?

I think ebay could implement a warning just like they do for tickets sold on ebay. A warning page stating that the product being sold has a chance of not suited for the intended purpose. They could also implement a system where they take customer reports of counterfeits seriously.
Only problem being that any measure is going to cost ebay $$$, thats why they wont do it.


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 10:32:51 AM , Rating: 2
Most leases have a clause of "no responsibility" based on the actions of the tenants.

Otherwise it would be like leasing a car and driving it thru a flea market at full speed killing people, and having their families sue the auto dealership.


RE: More French Madness?
By xsilver on 7/10/2008 11:19:06 AM , Rating: 2
on a corporate level, you're right because corporations have no conscience, but on a personal level?

eg. Have a conversation next time your rent your car regarding how many people you can run over; you wont be even able to get out of the parking lot. Why? not because of the corporation, but because of the personnel.

Your example shows nothing of the corporation knowing of suspicious activity also. The ford/firestone case shows that corporations can be held responsible if they have foreknowlege of faults yet do nothing.


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 12:33:20 PM , Rating: 2
Right but that's a product they own and produce.

Ebay is facilitating a transaction, they should not be held responsible for the product. They are not a retailer or a reseller.

Just put in a caveat emptor!!! BUYER BEWARE.


RE: More French Madness?
By xsilver on 7/10/2008 8:29:47 PM , Rating: 2
um no, I dont think ford owns firestone. They just sell their products (packaged with cars). Yet ford was made responsible for something that may not have been their fault (tyres)

The problem is not that there is anything suspicious or unethical, but the knowledge of these problems yet choose to ignore them; and the main reason being cost!


RE: More French Madness?
By gyranthir on 7/10/2008 9:02:55 PM , Rating: 2
The issue with Ford taking responsibility for it is they bundle their product with it at the point of sale. Meaning that they hold a stake if the tire is faulty, as it is PART of the product that they SELL.

Ebay sells nothing, they facilitate a service and manage it as such, they are not responsible for the products sold.


RE: More French Madness?
By xsilver on 7/11/2008 11:44:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ebay sells nothing, they facilitate a service and manage it as such

Using your words, they do a poor job of MANAGING the service they provide as there are absolutely no provisions for halting the sale of illegal or counterfeit goods. In fact if anything, they welcome it because it provides more profits.

The fair thing to do is not prevent ebay from selling but make provisions such that it sinks some of those "dirty" profits back into the "service" they provide to minimize illegal/unethical/suspicious activities. In this case though it might be cheaper to hire lawyers to make it go away. A bit sad really. Its all about the benjamins!


RE: More French Madness?
By SeeManRun on 7/9/2008 6:26:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
If someone sells drugs out of your house are you not responsible? Are you not an accessory to committing a crime?


No, you're not.


RE: More French Madness?
By tmouse on 7/10/2008 7:51:43 AM , Rating: 2
Keep thinking that way, its a good way to lose your home. All they need for an arrest is "probable cause" that you could have known such activity was going on in your home for an arrest which can cause you tens of thousands of dollars to defend with no chance or recovery. Many parents have lost their homes when it was discovered that their kids were dealing drugs from home. Also prepare for a life style audit from the government if they do not “feel” the numbers add up your doubly shafted remember the tax code is not the same burden of proof as the criminal code and is much harder to defend.


RE: More French Madness?
By rcc on 7/10/2008 4:09:45 PM , Rating: 1
Hmmm, how could eBay know it was counterfeit. Bear in mind that they never receive or touch the goods. That's part of what makes this absurd.

Now, if they were asking eBay's help in prosecuting people that sold fakes as originals, then eBay could theoretically help.


RE: More French Madness?
By jhb116 on 7/9/2008 7:49:26 PM , Rating: 2
I think the last sentence or the above post hits on a much bigger issue - what is the definition of a "retailer" in this bill. The idea of this "auction house" is for us to be able to get rid of things that are no longer of use to us. Let's say a handbag, in this instance - does this mean that we can no longer (as individuals getting rid of one or two handbags) sell them on Ebay? That would certainly be great for them and bad for the environment. They would get another potential customer while we would just throw the bag away or maybe give it to the Goodwill or something.


RE: More French Madness?
By phxfreddy on 7/9/2008 6:17:43 PM , Rating: 1
Leave it to the French. Ebay is in no way responsible. The correct idiom for the internet is that the person listing the product is responsible.

Anything else leaves the internet subject to complete shutdown of web 2.0 sites created by user content.

Anyone who says different does not have experience running a website!!!


RE: More French Madness?
By SeeManRun on 7/9/2008 6:29:03 PM , Rating: 3
I don't think the court is absolving the seller of doing things wrong, but Ebay is also profiting from the sale of "illegal" goods...

They don't want Ebay to make money from facilitating illegal transactions, and want them to stop, or face fines.

At least that is my interpretation.