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Software EU Pummels Microsoft With $1.4B USD Fine
Jason Mick (Blog) - February 27, 2008 3:47 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 182 comment(s) - last by dustwalker13.. on Mar 3 at 10:25 AM

EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes
Big corporations beware: the European Union is playing high stakes

Like a plentiful oil well, the European Union (EU) has found, since 2004, that Microsoft is a rich source of funds.  The EU allowed Microsoft to continue to operate in the region, but found it in violation of antitrust laws.  Its conclusion -- in order to stay Microsoft will have to pay some big fines.

The Microsoft fines began in March of 2004 when a European Commission high court found the company guilty of antitrust violations -- in particular, using underhanded tactics to freeze out its competitors in the media player and server software markets.  A massive fine of $690M (€497M) was charged against Microsoft. 

Microsoft refused to comply and was promptly fined an additional $375.4M USD.  In the end, Microsoft’s decision to fight the law turned out to be a futile one when the European Court of First Instance ruled to uphold European Commission's decision against Microsoft.  Microsoft agreed to finally comply with the ruling.

Now Microsoft has been hit with another massive fine by the European Union. The EU says that between July 2006, and October 2007, Microsoft's refused to comply during its legal fight against the EU, making it eligible for the increased rate of fines of approximately $3.83M a day, for each day of non-compliance.  The new fine announced by the EU for this period sums up to $1.4B USD (€899M). 

The fine marks the largest antitrust fine in international history, and a record judgment against Microsoft.

Microsoft indicated it is willing to accept the fine, though, commenting that the fines were about past issues and that the company is now operating under revised principles that make its software more open.  Microsoft twice reduced its patent rate and information license rate, last May.  Finally in October it reduced its rates even further, offering new license for interoperability information for a flat fee of $14,000 and an optional worldwide patent license for a reduced royalty of 0.4%.  The October reduction appears to be satisfactory in the EU's eyes, though the initial reduction was not.

The changes in licensing policy went into effect on October 22, 2007.  The changes help make it easier for smaller software firms to gain access to interoperability information, allowing them to interface with Microsoft products.  Microsoft had initially demanded a royalty rate totaling 3.87% of a licensee's product revenues and demanded an additional 2.98% of products' revenues from companies seeking access to communications information, which Microsoft deemed highly secret.

While the over $2.4B USD in fines reaped by the EU against Microsoft since 2004 have certainly hurt, Microsoft still has about $19.6B USD in cash reserves, when taking the most recent $1.4B USD fine into effect.  Unfortunately for Microsoft, this may soon be shrinking further as the European recently launched two new investigations into Microsoft.

The EU is also keeping busy trying to squeeze on Intel, which it also accused of antitrust violations.  Intel, like Microsoft, fought the EU's accusations.  Meanwhile the EU was hard at work, strengthening their case, by seizing documents in a raid of German Intel offices.

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Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Muirgheasa on 2/27/2008 4:06:12 PM , Rating: 5
...I'd like to make the point that this article is disappointingly biased. The phrase "seeking Microsoft gold" implies that Microsoft is fully within its rights to do what it's doing. Clearly this isn't the case; under US law, yes, it's probably fine. It's not just operating in the US though, and it has to comply with EU law too. In fact this latest fine is essentially for refusing to accept the ruling which was initially made.

The whys and wherefores of the case are past now - Microsoft lost and acted as if it was above the law by failing to fully comply with the rulings.

A clash of cultures is clearly in evidence here (or at least will be once a couple more posts come in): Europeans, for the most part, value the freedom of small companies to operate in a monopoly free environment, whereas those from the US prefer to give free markets free reign. Unfortunately for Microsoft it isn't free to choose its own set of rules.

Personally I think that this ruling is good for computer users on the whole, but that's almost beside the point of this news article - this is just about Microsoft failing to comply with the rules.




RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By RogueSpear on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By dever on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Ammohunt on 2/27/2008 4:26:05 PM , Rating: 4
Read: We support the domestic unions and anti-capitalists.
i.e.
if you fart somewhere in Europe don't be surprised when the United Farters Union of Europe hauls your ass to the EC for unsanctioned flatulence.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By jarman on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Samus on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 8:59:56 AM , Rating: 2
Whats the purpose of getting a speeding ticket.

To correct unwanted behaviour.

And like whit speeding ticket if you don't pay(1) them they get higher and higher till you do pay them.

Every/most Americans here is talking like the EU wanted to give MS the fine just to take there money.
Seen a interview whit Commissioner Neelie Kroes, she was having a hard time whit it giving the fine and frustrated by the lack cooperation and arrogance of MS.

(read: opening up protocols and publish documentation and have reasonable licenses, so companies can make software to work proper whit windows)

BTW, Neelie Kroes use to be one of the most right wing member of the VVD a Dutch right wing party
CV Neelie Kroes http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/commission/...


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By P4blo on 2/29/2008 5:54:29 AM , Rating: 3
The US gov isn't going to spank Microsoft that hard because it's a US company and a very important one at that! They want MS to stay globally dominant. The EU on the other hand, doesn't hold it in such high regard - who can blame them? The EU is more concerned with the thousands of EU companies that would like to be able to work affordably and integrate closely with Microsoft products so they too can share the wealth.

I also think the guy who wrote this article should be a reporter for fox news! Classic example of displaying emotional involvement with the writing style. Otherwise the choice of words wouldn't be so inflamatory.

DailyTech needs to decide if it wants to be 'fun' reading or 'trustworthy, impartial' reading I think.


By SiliconJon on 3/2/2008 2:04:03 PM , Rating: 2
I call for a repeat of that last sentence, please: DailyTech needs to decide if it wants to be 'fun' reading or 'trustworthy, impartial' reading I think.

And I vote for the latter.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 7:53:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Read: We support the domestic unions and anti-capitalists.
i.e.
if you fart somewhere in Europe don't be surprised when the United Farters Union of Europe hauls your ass to the EC for unsanctioned flatulence.

Man, you Americans have a narrow minded view of the world.

In thinking your way is the best and the only way of doing business.
There are 6.000.000.000 people that live not in the US and most of them think "the American way" is not there way.

If it works for you fine, live and do they way you like, but don't try to push it on to me.

And they are not all your enemy, but if you tread them that way and insult them all the time. they going to be.
Haven't seen any Europeans here call you "capitalistic pigs" ore "the new Nazi's of the world"

I am not going to say the EU is a utopia, far from that we got big problems, just like the US got them.

But if that "American way" means that i have to live in a country ware.

1. that ranks 45 in the world as far as life expectancy. (from spot 11, 20 years ago)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
2. A third to half of all citizens lack even basic health care.
3. Roughly 12% of citizens live below the poverty line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United...

And yes, poverty is high now also in the EU because of the new eastern members that joined the EU.
But unlike the US that's keeping Mexico and S and M-America down, we are trying to help out those countries to get the same standard of living as we have.

Then yes, you can keep you pure capitalism, i like mine whit a bit of socialism.

But you should watch this BBC documentary "the century of self", its how the masses getting brainwashed.
And NO, its not done by a lefty, because it's also pretty hard on the left parties.

Its a real eye opener and should be shown mandatory to all students around age 14~16 at school,
Its a long sit (4 x 60min) and its very interesting but also sometimes boring (what cant be helped).

But i dear you and all Right but also Left-wing to see it, and afterward saying you still see everything the same way.

Because after seeing this you will now when and how you are being manipulated, by so-well left and right and big corporations.

And maybe some have to see it 2 times to befor geting it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_Of_The_Se...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/feature...
quote:
From Wikipedia:
Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, changed the perception of the human mind and its workings profoundly. His influence on the 20th century is widely regarded as massive. The documentary describes the impact of Freud's theories on the perception of the human mind, and the ways public relations agencies and politicians have used this during the last 100 years for their "engineering of consent".

part 1~4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-263763536...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-611192272...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1122532358...

Ore do a Bit-Torrent search on "The Century Of The Self" and download the hole series


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By FITCamaro on 2/27/2008 4:53:01 PM , Rating: 2
No this is an issue of the EU trying to dictate what companies can charge customers to make interoperable software with their product. And their dislike of American based companies having an advantage over their own.

Even at the original 3.87/2.93% of their revenues for patent info/communication info, that is hardly absurd. You sell your product that uses some interoperability information that Microsoft provides for $100, you give Microsoft at most $6.80 per copy. Seems fair to me.

Then they changed it to .7/.5%. So you need the info and sell your product for $100, you pay them at most $1.20 per copy. Still wasn't good enough for the EU. So they changed it to a flat $14,900 + optional worldwide patent license for .4% of revenues. Hardly unfair.

If they had revenues of $100 million for a year, they'd have only paid the original $14,900 fee and potentially only $400,000 in patent license fees which are good worldwide. Under half a percent of their revenues. Even if their profit was only 5%, they'd still have made over $4.5 million dollars. And the $14,900 fee isn't out of reach of smaller businesses either.

To me at some point there's going to be no point for Microsoft to do business in the EU. If they're constantly paying out hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in bogus fines, whats the point? Any profits will be eroded by those fees. Windows is a Microsoft product. They invested their time and money to develop it. If a company wants to make money off Microsoft's time and effort, they should have to compensate Microsoft for it.

To me Microsoft should just give the EU the middle finger and say "What are you going to do?" And what can they do? Not let them sell their product? I think businesses over in Europe would be pretty pissed. Fine with me too since then maybe they'll move their businesses over here to the states where we let companies make money on the products they work hard to develop and don't charge outrageous corporate taxes.

I'd love to know what kind of fees Apple charges for its proprietary info.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:15:15 PM , Rating: 5
Here is a list of all the 2007 antitrust cases in the EU:

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cas...

Please show me that all of those companies are american. Oh surprise they are NOT!

Thats because the EU fines EVERYONE who does not obey the law. Its soft of a principle.


By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:15:48 PM , Rating: 1
soft = sort :)


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By FITCamaro on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 2:45:59 AM , Rating: 3
1)Of course. All other complied with the law.
2)5 out of 20-30? American companies are above the EU law?


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Adonlude on 2/28/2008 12:20:21 PM , Rating: 1
They seem to only go after the rich American companies. I think this is total BS. If they want to go after Microsoft, Intel, and Texas Instruments then why cant we just say "no more software or silicon for you EU"?

Ya I know it would cost the companies far more to do this but I really wish they would do it anyway. American companies should not be infusing the EU with billions of dollars.

Get out your sextant and dust off your abacus EU, no more computers for you!


By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 12:36:05 PM , Rating: 1
The fact is that if MS withdrew from EU the biggest single market on the world would suddenly go for alternatives like Linux, MacOSX, BSD. With that market share MS would even more forced to play by international standards and protocols. Also the piracy rates of MS windows would go sky rocket.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 9:29:01 AM , Rating: 2
Really, it dose not look to me like the EU is soft on EU companies.

Dutch brewer Heineken got fined for EUR219.3m ($330m) for anti competitive behavior in Holland only (population 17m)
But they are not so stupid not to comply whit the ruling, otherwise they would be fined the same way as MS.
http://www.just-drinks.com/article.aspx?id=93048&l...

So saying EU is only specially harsh on US companies is just not true

The first fine in 2004 was $357 million, and if you don't do what you supposed to do (follow the local law) they will get higher and that's how you end up at 1.4 billion.

BTW if you don't follow US law, don't you get higher fines every time you don't follow them till you do ?


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 10:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
Ooo yeah btw
The EU stock markets cap alone is worth $15,720,000,000,000

Yeah "stealing" some (1,4bn) money from MS is really the only thing that's keeping Europe standing and saving our "United Farters Union of anti-capitalists" asses


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Motley on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 8:22:30 AM , Rating: 1
"by Motley on February 28, 2008 at 5:30 AM

Out of that list, there are 4 tech companies. All of them american.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Texas Instruments. I guess real telling of a tech company is whether the EU is trying to steal your money away."

just one example:

Siemens (european and tech company) was fined 751M € alone in the first instance. they just where not stupid (or arrogant) enough not to comply the ruling, otherwhise their fine would have gone up just as that of microsoft did.

microsofts fine is the highest of all, just because they thougt of themselves as standing above the law. had they complied to the ruling in the first place, their fine would have been 497M € and thus way away from being the highest penalty dished out by the eu.


By ikkeman on 2/27/2008 9:39:46 PM , Rating: 5
by your own calculation. If the company had a 5% profit margin, MS would have taken all with their 3.87/2.93% fee over revenue!

The fine is based on the earning resulting from non-compliance. That means the 1.4B fine is actually the amount MS earned from not obeying the law - no harm, just no profits either


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Calin on 2/28/08, Rating: 0
By FITCamaro on 2/28/2008 10:35:37 AM , Rating: 1
Almost every major software product has undocumented system calls.

I work with a Requirements Management system which has its own scripting language. There are tons of undocumented features. Do any of its users sue? No. Because its just a fact of software. If we find one we can use, we do so but they don't support it.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By twnorows on 2/28/08, Rating: 0
By Frallan on 2/29/2008 3:47:18 AM , Rating: 2
If u were running Microsoft it would be bankrupted within 5 years...


By Muirgheasa on 2/29/2008 4:05:35 AM , Rating: 2
Couldn't bring myself to read your whole post, because your syntax is awfully difficult to follow. Basically though, you think Microsoft are above the law?

Then you said something about Governments being monopolies, which would be an intelligent comment except that (at least in the EU) governments are elected. National and European Parliaments are voted in directly, then the (democratically elected) governments nominate commissioners to go on the commission. I fail to see how this is the same as Microsoft ignoring a legal ruling (which is what this story is about).

If you can explain with proper sentences, please do.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 10:00:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Here's the REAL fact: Microsoft has leveraged it's expertise and knowledge over the last 30 years to become one of the greatest companies EVER on the face of the planet.

Uuuhh your talking a bout a company like its your favorite football team,
Think man, they don't give a shit about you, they only want your money.

I really would suggest that you rethink your life and what you want whit it :-)


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:08:59 PM , Rating: 5
I always look forward to articles about EU fines on MS on DailyTech. You just know the staff hates EU so the articles will be biased, altho this time is was pretty much to the point after the first few sentences.

But then all the retards starts chiming in about MS should pull out of Europe, not pay the fine and so on. First of all i doubt any of them have any clue how stupid that would be of MS.

1) The EU can seize MS's property in the EU if MS does not pay the fine.
2) The EU can void MS copyright, patents and so on in the EU. That would make all current and future products from MS free in Europe (and it would be legal to download it from piratebay.org too)

Then some suggests that US should take actions. The US thats heading right into a recession - you want them to go into an economic struggle with EU, the worlds largest economy, over a software company? Good luck with the daydreaming.

What will happen is that MS will pay the fine and comply with the law, like everyone else in the EU. There really is no alternative.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Spuke on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
By GreenyMP on 2/27/2008 6:20:55 PM , Rating: 4
BBC gets their news from the same biased sources.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By finalfan on 2/27/2008 6:30:59 PM , Rating: 2
Certainly MS will not quit, but charge a higher price for each copy of MS software sold in EU to recover the fine. Guess who got pissed? EU! Surprise? It's just one more tax for those poor EU people. No wonder they cannot compete.


By Calin on 2/28/2008 3:48:27 AM , Rating: 2
Even so, the EU commission will have eroded a bit the advantage Microsoft has over its would be competitors - when the cost for something increases, you are more attracted to alternatives (even if they might not be as good).
I've recently seen an offer for a laptop for about $567 with Windows Vista - yet, without Windows Vista it was $412. If I was in the market for a laptop, I would have bought it. If Microsoft increases the price of its software, you might save not 30% but maybe 40% or more - and suddenly there is a possible market outside of Microsoft programs


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By TestKing123 on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By zpdixon on 2/28/2008 3:11:15 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

The Eurozone is larger when combining total output of all member nations, but the unity ends there.


It looks like you don't understand how the EU work. We are a single market ! Free movement of goods, services, capital, and people. There is zero restriction !

Largest economy in the world, largest exporter, second largest importer, biggest trading partner to China and the USA. It is as simple as that :)


By TestKing123 on 2/28/2008 10:15:39 AM , Rating: 4
It doesn't seem you understand how your own system works. You were a "single" market (for participating members at least) even before the introduction of the euro. The introduction of the euro made transactions alot easier with a single currency, but you are still subject to the laws of your individual countries, which DOES affect the movement of goods and services (and of course people). It is why the IMF still ranks the largest "single" economy in the world as the United States, and why "it's not as simple as that :). "

Of course, it won't matter much in a few years, as the United States will surpass the EU economically. Other than this bump, the US has been outpacing the EU in economic growth over the last decade, and stagnant growth has been problematic for the EU.

While the larger eurozone countries like France and Germany bicker over what economic policies to enforce (and therefore forcing policies that can adversly affect smaller nations, most notably newly joined eastern european nations), the prerequisites set by the EU Central Bank for debt/defecit are ignored. In essence, the ECB is supposed to fine any country of the eurozone that violate those policies (France and Germany again). No fines have been implemented for these violations, but yet the EU fines Microsoft after Microsoft had already agreed and implemented change.


By Sandok on 2/28/2008 6:05:38 PM , Rating: 1
Outpacing the EU in economic power? With a dollar that's loosing out to the Euro (and many companies loyal to the $ wavering), trust me, the US is in deep trouble in the near future. Don't forget, the US is a major importer and a pathethic exporter and right now, with such a weak currency, that fundamental balance is being tested.

The next President can sink or swim the country but economically, the US is loosing not to the EU, but to China and other "new" powers.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Motley on 2/28/2008 5:33:41 AM , Rating: 3
1) That's true. The EU can seize a portion of MS's property that resides within EU territories.

2) Is technically correct, but then the EU would be in violation of international treaties, which would legally lead up to anything including embargo from the rest of the world and/or miliary action.

The EU is big, but they aren't without restraint either.


By Frallan on 2/29/2008 3:54:19 AM , Rating: 2
Re: 2: I do not think that sizing the property and voiding patents from a company that has broken the law is a break agains any treaties. But It will never be tested since MS has fought EU and lost and now complies with rules and fines immediatly.

Acctually just that MS doesn't fight shows that the leagal minds in MS has allready evaluated this before and probably knew it was coming.


By Strunf on 2/29/2008 7:13:27 PM , Rating: 2
Legally lead to what?...

The US makes illegal wars, violates the WTO agreements countless time and I'm yet to see a country embargoing the US... the fact is big economies are pretty much outside of the WTO scope, this is why China, the EU, the US and a bunch of other countries keep violating the WTO agreements.

Besides who in perfect state of mind would make an embargo to a 400 million people market... only the US cares about MS, China and all the other countries would keep doing business regardless of what the US says. Actually that would just push Europe closer to Russia... which is not on the US best interest.


By whirabomber on 2/28/2008 8:03:36 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds more like the EU is going after MS to force it to give free technology to backwards EU IT companies that can't compete. MS is being forced to "share" technology with other EU companies so they can build competing products. That falls into the "stupid" category that makes me not to want to trade with the EU at all.

EU - we can't compete with software technology so who will we sue to get some free technology from today?

-or-

EU - don't do it better than us or we'll sue you.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Fireshade on 2/28/2008 8:33:14 AM , Rating: 3
Another baseless comment.
This has nothing to do with "sharing" and "giving" technology to EU IT companies.
This is about MS not following EU law.

And guess who started this anti trust case?
Novell and SUN Microsystems! Yes, American companies! :)


By whirabomber on 2/29/2008 6:57:08 AM , Rating: 2
"Microsoft has been asked to hand over documentation to its competitors detailing the inner workings of its software applications or face daily $2.6 million USD fines."

The latest is over "feature remove" that, without ever seeing the product, the EU claims "stiffles competition."

Either there are 2 seperate cases, which the media doesn't clarify or the EU just keeps adding stuff on.

Where are your sources stating Novell and Sun started this whole thing. From all the articles I could find on it, not one stated anything about Sun or Novell initiating the action. Without any support for your claims, you are just making stuff up.

Honestly, why would Microsoft prevent people from building applications that work on its products? The effort to do so would undermine its dominance in the market - if no one makes software to run on your OS (google BEOS), what good is your OS?

BTW, when is the EU going after Nintento for their Mario and Princess Peach monopoly? Oh wait, they won't because doing so won't help any EU tech companies be anymore useful outside the EU.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 5:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
What do SUN and Novell build again ?

Thats right SQL Server & Exchange Server like systems.

What do they want from MS to now how to intergrade them in Windows server.
What dose MS want, no compation on there server software.


By Setsunayaki on 3/1/2008 1:50:52 PM , Rating: 1
I don't care what you Europeans say....We may have a president who is DUMBER than a monkey and yes....I do admit Americans are scum when it comes to respecting the rest of the world....but......the reality is this...

The European Union Parliament was APPOINTED and NOT ELECTED and they have more power than ANY NATIONAL leader....so they can appoint some person from CHINA to be in the EU....and any EU member can go to any EU member nation and say "You will do X, Y and Z...."

At least Americans Still have a voice and live in a sovereign nation. Europeans...You gave up your own sovereignty and now you are becoming like the United States....

I used to go to EUROPE and enjoy things there...Now I can't enjoy things there since now almost everything there is now made in CHINA, quality of life is going downhill. The Madrid and Paris we loved as a family no longer exists and now everytime I see places....I always say "why did I travel here when the this place is becoming like the US?"

You may have had poverty. You may have had millions of problems...but before you had the EU...YOU WERE FREE....and MUCH MORE FREE than us Americans who have to deal with a CENTRAL government sucking the life out of us....Now you are STUCK with the EUROPEAN UNION and must deal with the same blood we have dealt with from our own government...

You want to redeem yourself.....Picket the European Union Parliament and DEMAND to have ELECTIONS on who joins the European Union Parliament.....

Do this and I will give you Europeans lifelong respect and I will even travel there and render aid in resisting that Artistocratic Fascist Conglomerate.

Before you tell me how good the EU is...OPEN YOUR EYES and learn that you just gave your nations away and sold your existence away......

Fight for your freedom and eliminate the elements of Tyrany...and restore your dignity and freedom...and I will respect you once again...

Until then you have no RIGHT TO BASH THE UNITED STATES...

We may be assholes
We may be creeps in your mind

But we are one sovereign nation and we STILL HAVE A VOICE...while you Europeans let your leaders sell you out!

Good day. Setsunayaki is my AIM if you are interested in a real chat....^_^

good luck.


Who's the money going to?
By Spranked on 2/27/2008 4:06:08 PM , Rating: 1
To be honest it seems like the EU is using them to supplement their funds. Odds are I'm wrong and Microsoft deserves what's happening to them for not complying early enough but it still feels that way to me.

Who does the money actually go to though? I'm wondering if it goes to the disenfranchised companies that had to deal with Microsoft in the first place.




RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/27/2008 4:43:14 PM , Rating: 3
Sad truth is it goes to French vineyards. Because no one wants to buy their overpriced wine any more, excess grapes are fermented then distilled and sold as vodka around the world. So next time you grab a cheap bottle of grey goose thank the EU for leeching on Microsoft.

On second thought I wouldn't mind paying double for windows if the European courts keep this up.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By FITCamaro on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/27/2008 5:16:34 PM , Rating: 2
Did you just pull that out of your ass? Thought so. The EU doesn't spend money on welfare, its member countries independently do so. About 50% of the budget goes to farming subsidies, with France being the single largest recipient.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By TALENT on 2/27/2008 5:45:39 PM , Rating: 2
EU does indeed support the lazy layabouts in extreme amounts. I now have 6 new European neighbors who moved to the US to escape the government. Unfortunately for them they don't realize they jumped from the kettle right into the fire.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Spuke on 2/27/2008 6:13:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Unfortunately for them they don't realize they jumped from the kettle right into the fire.
Yup, wait till all the companies bail on their medical benefits once the "free" medical gets into full swing. They'll be going right back to Europe. A friend made a point that no American citizen should be without healthcare and, I agree, but I'm not willing to pay for it nor will that healthcare just be for citizens.

I'm predicting a future where I'll be working a low paying (which means lower taxes), stress free job just so I don't have to sweat any of this crap anymore. I woun't care what happens.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/27/2008 8:50:08 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not going to argue against universal healthcare, it's a nice idea and all. But I have yet seen them draw a line in the sand. Will it be for everyone in the U.S.? Will it be for everyone who enters a U.S. medical facility? Only for citizens? I mean, where does one draw the line. If they want to give it to U.S. citizens only, ok that's fine, but how would they enforce it? Ok let's say everyone who pays taxes (since that will have to pay for the healthcare), how do we tell who pays taxes and who doesn't? Who will get exemptions because their pay is too low?

I've not seen any realistic implementation from anyone. It's a really nice idea, but nobody seems to have it figured out.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Chaser on 2/27/2008 10:08:14 PM , Rating: 2
The implementation is going quite well. It's already doing a great job at buying votes for some presidential candidates. How does government health care get paid for? "Vote me in and I'll take it from someone else and give it to you".

You know that "fat cat money" that just grows on trees. As long as there's someone with more than me then please take it from him.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Duwelon on 2/27/2008 10:35:39 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, and what these well meaning, bleeding heart liberals don't understand is that it's our current system and freedoms that allowed them to thrive in the first place. Start taking everyone's money away who has some and see how motivated they still are to make more. I truely fear the day when universal healthcare takes over america because it will not be pretty and it will not cost anywhere near what is stated.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By RaulF on 2/28/2008 5:41:52 AM , Rating: 2
This whole Free Health care thing is not that good of an idea guys. I was in vacation a few years ago in Europe and i had to go to the hospital because a family member got bit by a dog. Let's just say that US hospital put it to shame real bad. But i do want to say thanks for the service offcourse. I had to pay out of my pocket, but it was not too expensive.

P.S. Some of the doctors were Military doctors. In fact the whole experience felt like American Military Health care system.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Motley on 2/28/2008 5:41:05 AM , Rating: 2
Fund it from sales tax. Anyone who buys or sells stuff in the US is then covered, including visitors.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By FITCamaro on 2/28/2008 10:43:38 AM , Rating: 2
Sales tax is a state and county tax. That money goes to fund local needs. Not federal programs.

I am vehemently against universal health care. Why should I have to pay for someone else to get treated? I have health care. Quite good too. If you don't, sorry. Get a job that offers good health care or pay for it. If you can't do either of those things, thats not my fault so why should I be punished for it?

Worried about that your kids don't have good health care? Well if you couldn't provide for them, maybe you shouldn't have had them. We've got way too many people in this country having kids, not being able to support them properly, and then whining that the government doesn't do more to make their life easier. Maybe you should have put on a condom, taken birth control, or just plain not had sex.

My girlfriend says she wants 4 kids some day. I say no. Why? Because I doubt I could properly support 4 kids. I'm not going to have them unless I have the money to give them what they need.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 11:18:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not going to have them unless I have the money to give them what they need.

I wish more people had this kind of sense.

I have to agree with your argument. Unfortunately it's firmly rooted in most major religions and it's in the Bible that part of their duty is to reproduce. This is not true, humans have the capability to reproduce but you can't expect other people to pick up the slack because you decided not to reign it in. With the ready availability of contraceptives it shouldn't be a problem to have your fun and not procreate in the process.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By MagicSquid on 2/29/2008 4:13:17 AM , Rating: 2
Have you guys watched the movie "Idiocracy" lately? You should.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 6:01:40 PM , Rating: 2
hehehe, "thats a good one" LOL

But they properly dont get it, they are from the future ;-)


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Ringold on 2/28/2008 2:31:57 AM , Rating: 2
Typical liberal. Attacked FIT, then accidently admitted he was right.

What'd he say? One thing was that the EU supports uncompetitive firms. Then you admit 50% of the EU budget goes to farming subsidies. If you don't see the hypocrisy in that, then you're beyond my help.

As far as direct welfare spending; a direct quote:

"education and training, culture, employment and social policy,"

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/budget_glance/index_en....

Those fall under the broader category of welfare spending. They are so vague you could fly a Deathstar through their language anyway. Easier to spend your money that way.

I also see they spent nearly 47 billion euro's on "cohesion." Why do I get the idea that you could've bought an immense amount of super-glue for 47 billion euros.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/28/2008 4:57:48 AM , Rating: 2
Gotta give you props for digging out a link. But again we see neo-ncons cherry picking the data they want to see and presenting it out of context tsk tsk. To give a fuller quote:

"for example in agriculture, fisheries, infrastructure (construction of roads, bridges and railways), education and training, culture, employment and social policy"

Agriculture was listed first and social policy 8th. Since the items are not in alphabetical order I'll go out on a leg and say they're in order of importance. Don't you worry. You'll get your share of liberal attacks some other time.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By robinthakur on 2/28/2008 8:43:11 AM , Rating: 2
I'm surprised the French farmers need such big subsidies. Given the world beating standards for their food you would think they could export more of it and turn a considerable profit! I can only imagine that its because they are artificially keeping prices lowered for the internal population...odd.

I must be keeping the champage industry in profit (unlike the wine market which is dying on the vine sadly) as we get through a bottle most nights and more at weekends lol Unfortunately most people are cost-limited and therefore just buy the cheapest they can find in terms of wine, and pay little heed for quality...


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Frallan on 2/29/2008 4:06:56 AM , Rating: 2
Well Im a Swede living in Germany. And allthough I do like French wines I do not like the EU agricultural subsisidies. It is going to change but it takes time. I hope that Agricultural will only amount to 1/5 of the budget in 15 years.


Windows N
By BMFPitt on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Windows N
By Mitch101 on 2/27/2008 4:06:53 PM , Rating: 5
The EU consumer loses in the end.

The price of Windows OS will just be doubled in the EU along with all the software and support.


RE: Windows N
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 4:51:59 PM , Rating: 1
No it wont, since that would be illegal.


RE: Windows N
By rtk on 2/27/2008 5:33:22 PM , Rating: 2
so, the government decides what a company can charge for a product?

EU citizens, the Lexus and audi brand cars are easily double the price of a Hyundai, the fact that they are of higher quality, etc. seems to be irrelevant.


RE: Windows N
By eye smite on 2/27/2008 5:58:33 PM , Rating: 4
I agree, Hyundai is a better brand........I think I got that backwards. heh


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/27/2008 5:52:36 PM , Rating: 3
Price of Windows is relative. Microsoft can charge whatever they want. If they decide that Windows will be $500 per person in the EU, people can either buy it or consider alternatives. The EU can't dictate pricing of a product like windows. They are currently dictating the price of interoperability which "supposedly" is preventing many software companies from writing software for Windows. What you will see then is a shift where Microsoft charges OEM Vendors an extra $10 for each machine with Windows, and a 10% increase for all licensing agreements with corporations with maintenance contracts. The money will be made regardless of the EU's meddling. Tax source A, company charges a premium on source B, C and D to compensate. It's simple economics.

Frankly I've never had a problem writing software on Windows and I think this is simply a couple of open source groups and maybe a few tiny 5 man software shops coming out of the woodwork with unsuccessful products looking to make some money back or make it cheaper to continue to operate rather than play with the same rules the big boys play with.

If I was Symantec or Adobe I would be suing the EU saying this is unfair because it favors these little shops and hurts large enterprises that have invested billions of dollars in research and product development. You know Microsoft is not going to give these new fees to anyone outside of Europe, and that means Symantec, Adobe, small U.S. businesses, etc...


RE: Windows N
By Duwelon on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Windows N
By emboss on 2/28/2008 3:02:38 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Frankly I've never had a problem writing software on Windows and I think this is simply a couple of open source groups and maybe a few tiny 5 man software shops coming out of the woodwork with unsuccessful products looking to make some money back or make it cheaper to continue to operate rather than play with the same rules the big boys play with.


You (and everyone else who has commented on the API issue) need to read up on basis for the case. This is not about APIs - that was sorted out in the late 90's through lawsuits in the US (which is why Office, for example, only uses fully documented Win32 functions).

This is about protocols. The charge was that MS was using it's dominance in the desktop area to muscle in on the server area, via closed protocols such as SMB. The ruling was that MS must make documentation on these protocols available. They didn't provide the documentation within the required time and so got fined for it.

MS had already been required to do this (more or less) as a result of the US antitrust proceedings. The key was that in the US, the terms of the settlement essentially excluded open source implementations, which by that point were MS's only real competitors. The EU was requiring that MS licence the documentation to open source projects as well, and they were (quite reasonably) rather against the idea.

There was also some stuff about media players, but this was irrelevant to the fine (not to mention completely pointless) - MS complied with this part of the ruling very quickly.


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 9:11:30 AM , Rating: 2
I'm aware of the charge regarding the protocols yet see little evidence to indicate customers were somehow harmed by this. "Trade Secrets" still do exist. On the flip side I disagree with the open source ideology. I don't write software to share with the world freely. I write software for my company to keep my job, which in turn uses this software in conjunction with other software/systems to turn a tidy profit and gain an edge over competitors. I make a good salary and keep a good job because of my knowledge and skillsets. The last thing I need is a bunch of open source advocates telling my company they need to give it all away for pennies. No thanks, closed source for me. Infact because of the open source license agreements about being required to publish changes to source code, or plaster the original creators name all over the app, my company actively avoids open source like the plague. Anything and everything we do is IP held by our company. If anyone wants it, they are going to pay a nice price for it, pending we are feeling like making that available. In most cases we keep it to ourselves and use it to one up our competitors.


RE: Windows N
By emboss on 2/28/2008 10:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm aware of the charge regarding the protocols yet see little evidence to indicate customers were somehow harmed by this.


Checked Windows Server prices recently? :)

The withholding of protocol information was one of the major components of MS's (very successful) strategy against Novell. Ironically, it could be said that Novell's strategy of tying everything to (the closed spec) NDS stifled competition within the server market ... which brings me to my second point:

quote:
If anyone wants it, they are going to pay a nice price for it, pending we are feeling like making that available. In most cases we keep it to ourselves and use it to one up our competitors.


Vendor lock-in (including prevention of interop by legal means such as patents) and product tying are two of the primary ways in which tech companies hold on to and expand market share. While annoying to the consumer, there's nothing illegal about it for a "normal" company. However, like many laws, it changes when the company is in a position of market dominance. This is why noone cares that Apple ties iLife to OS X (neither product could be said to be dominant in any market), but there's unhappy rumblings about iTunes being tied to the iPod.

quote:
On the flip side I disagree with the open source ideology. I don't write software to share with the world freely.


That's fine. Noone is asking you to give away your code (and noone was asking MS to give away their code). Personally, I'm for open standards for interop, but ambivalent towards open source. I hate it when two different toolchains have features that would make my life easier, but I'm forced to choose between them because they won't talk to each other. However, I couldn't care less about whether the tools themselves were open source or not, as long as they get the job done.

Personally, I do commercial/closed-source development to pay the bills, but release most of the stuff developed in my own time as open source (public domain, unless I'm prevented for doing so by the licences of components that I use).


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 11:13:07 AM , Rating: 2
Windows server isn't much more costly than Mac OSX Server or Novell Suse. Frankly, if anyone needs to be raked over the coals for server pricing BMC Remedy and Oracle are at the top of my list. Need an astrophysics degree to calculate the price and it always comes to something that's simply out of this world. I have to give Microsoft credit for atleast a fairly baseline pricing structure even if it is higher than I might prefer.


RE: Windows N
By Martimus on 2/27/2008 4:20:28 PM , Rating: 5
They won't do that. That would kill their defacto monopoly on mainsteam OS's, since another OS would have to pick up the slack in Europe. Then MS would have to fight against another competitor in a market where they haven't had any real competition in years. I can't see them making that mistake, although I would like it if they did. At least then I would have more hope that I will have more options in the future for OS purchases.


RE: Windows N
By INeedCache on 3/2/2008 7:54:37 PM , Rating: 2
Why don't some of the EU supporters explain how Windows N benefited the consumer?


Why is the EU even involved?
By PWNettle on 2/27/2008 5:41:17 PM , Rating: 5
Shouldn't EU consumers really be making the decisions here?

If you don't like MS, which apparently many of the elitist euros here don't, then simply don't use it. Stick with Linux, a text editor, and Firefox. You don't really need premium softare or games. Or use Apple with proprietery everything. You don't really need to be able to modify your own computer (has Apple been fined by EU yet for this?).

There are other options.

I'm sure your grandma would love Linux and open source software.

I surely don't think MS is perfect and they are obviously aggressive with their practices, as are most companies that want to make money, even *gasp* europeans (americans are descendant from euros so where do you think we get our greed from, eh?), but I think it's pretty ridiculous for the EU to arbitrarily come up with a fine of this size.

Who gets the money? The incompetent devs who can't write software? The windbags of the EU that make up this crap? The average consumer?

Gates is retiring and MS has enough money. I'd just pull the plug on EU.




RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By brian26 on 2/27/2008 5:52:52 PM , Rating: 1
It has to be freaking annoying to be targeted by the Eu union every day. They spend their resources on finding ways to F successful american companies over. I swear if i were microsoft I would just give them the middle finger and pull the heck out. No one is forcing them to use microsoft products. If they want to NOT use microsoft products then they have to deal with the shit that comes from not using a Microsoft product. They shouldnt expect microsoft to say hey let us help you fix your software on a platform we dont own. Man this bs makes my blood boil.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By NullSubroutine on 2/27/2008 8:13:07 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Shouldn't EU consumers really be making the decisions here?


The point of this is that MS practices are resulting in them not having a choice.

The whole idea behind a monopoly is that a business exploits its position to keep its position through anti-consumer business practices. This in turn allows the business to exploit the consumer because there is no alternative for them to get the service.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/27/2008 9:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The point of this is that MS practices are resulting in them not having a choice.


That's ridiculous, no choice? Many versions of Linux, Apple solutions, browser selections, media player software, it's endless. How is MS being anti-competitive with Linux? One cost some bucks while the other can be had for free. As for Apple it's the opposite, you spend more for an Apple set-up. So how is being in the middle ground anti-competitive?

Which OS has the most popular software developed for it, Windows. Windows easier than Linux for grandma to use & more software than Apple. People WANT Windows & developers WANT to develop for it. It makes them more money than Linux & it's even more restricted for Apple.

MS should get more for their product. Are 3 or 4 games worth more than the software environment they run on or the hardware it enables to function? Is Adobe software worth more?

Face it, MS made the computer what it is. Apple had it's chance in the 80's and failed, MS revived it. If Apple had their way then, where would Intel, AMD, NVDIA, Adobe, Dell, ect. be? They would have been a wet dream. A speck of their current selves. MS has directly & indirectly driven the economy of the world.

I may sound like a fanboy, which I'm not. This is reality, Apple had their chance, Linux has far to go for grandma to enjoy it. But like it or not MS has made an impact like Ford in their day. Windows isn't hip like Apple or even cheap or free like Linux, Yet it's the top CHOICE of CONSUMERS. (as wrong as the gov't knows they are.)


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 2:56:49 AM , Rating: 2
Grandma is not a demanding audience. Last time when she was here and she needed to check her email she used my Linux machine and she didn't even noticed the difference. She just clicked firefox...


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 9:31:06 AM , Rating: 2
Your missing the point. Using the term grandma is shorter than saying less than 3% of the people I know, the majority, the illiterate computer user. You see how grandma is shorter. The point becomes as you said, a majority of people could use a Linux machine, but they could not fix a problem or ask how to do something because a majority of the people they would ask wouldn't know either. This holds true for windows also, but there are way more "novice" users that could fix a windows issue over a Linux one. That is the point, people aren't comfortable with it. I gave up when every time I upgraded I had to recompile or whatever a driver.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 12:11:58 PM , Rating: 2
Why fix it if it ain't broken. I never had to repair anything. When the new release came out I just reinstalled or updated. But I can relate to you, when I used windows as my main OS the half year format was mandatory.

I never had to compile a driver, but I use a cool mainstream version not some geek one. Only thing that I am missing is TVout support for my graphic card. ATI pls include that in the next release of catalyst drivers for Linux.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 3:01:47 PM , Rating: 2
I have tried it & yes I agree with the "if it ain't broken" mentality. But the problem comes from hardware upgrades & such. I would love to use it but I don't have the time. The time to find someone with personal knowledge, time to find the perfect software, time to find the correct drivers, the list goes on. The reason windows sells is convenience.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 4:04:59 PM , Rating: 2
What drivers. I haven't installed any. For windows I had to installed four different(for motherboard, graphic card and sound card) When I upgraded my sound card last week(proud owner of Audigy :=) ) everything was working out of the box. If that isn't convenience... But this are just my personal experiences.
Finding the right software largely depends what you are doing with your computer. If you surf the net, write documents, watch movies, listen to music, MSN, pdf, torrent ... like most people do then you don't have to find anything. If you are more demanding a GUI program finds a list of programs suited for the task in software channel. Install is just three clicks away. I think the main problem is getting used to new programs not finding them. Here I agree with you it's more convenient to use programs(and OS) that you are used to.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By caqde on 2/28/2008 3:26:29 AM , Rating: 1
....................

Umm let's get this straight from the consumer view point. Duhh computer on shelf.. hmm windows windows windows, IE, hmm Media player.. Windows Media. umm yeah... Please. Unle