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Software EU Pummels Microsoft With $1.4B USD Fine
Jason Mick (Blog) - February 27, 2008 3:47 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 182 comment(s) - last by dustwalker13.. on Mar 3 at 10:25 AM

EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes
Big corporations beware: the European Union is playing high stakes

Like a plentiful oil well, the European Union (EU) has found, since 2004, that Microsoft is a rich source of funds.  The EU allowed Microsoft to continue to operate in the region, but found it in violation of antitrust laws.  Its conclusion -- in order to stay Microsoft will have to pay some big fines.

The Microsoft fines began in March of 2004 when a European Commission high court found the company guilty of antitrust violations -- in particular, using underhanded tactics to freeze out its competitors in the media player and server software markets.  A massive fine of $690M (€497M) was charged against Microsoft. 

Microsoft refused to comply and was promptly fined an additional $375.4M USD.  In the end, Microsoft’s decision to fight the law turned out to be a futile one when the European Court of First Instance ruled to uphold European Commission's decision against Microsoft.  Microsoft agreed to finally comply with the ruling.

Now Microsoft has been hit with another massive fine by the European Union. The EU says that between July 2006, and October 2007, Microsoft's refused to comply during its legal fight against the EU, making it eligible for the increased rate of fines of approximately $3.83M a day, for each day of non-compliance.  The new fine announced by the EU for this period sums up to $1.4B USD (€899M). 

The fine marks the largest antitrust fine in international history, and a record judgment against Microsoft.

Microsoft indicated it is willing to accept the fine, though, commenting that the fines were about past issues and that the company is now operating under revised principles that make its software more open.  Microsoft twice reduced its patent rate and information license rate, last May.  Finally in October it reduced its rates even further, offering new license for interoperability information for a flat fee of $14,000 and an optional worldwide patent license for a reduced royalty of 0.4%.  The October reduction appears to be satisfactory in the EU's eyes, though the initial reduction was not.

The changes in licensing policy went into effect on October 22, 2007.  The changes help make it easier for smaller software firms to gain access to interoperability information, allowing them to interface with Microsoft products.  Microsoft had initially demanded a royalty rate totaling 3.87% of a licensee's product revenues and demanded an additional 2.98% of products' revenues from companies seeking access to communications information, which Microsoft deemed highly secret.

While the over $2.4B USD in fines reaped by the EU against Microsoft since 2004 have certainly hurt, Microsoft still has about $19.6B USD in cash reserves, when taking the most recent $1.4B USD fine into effect.  Unfortunately for Microsoft, this may soon be shrinking further as the European recently launched two new investigations into Microsoft.

The EU is also keeping busy trying to squeeze on Intel, which it also accused of antitrust violations.  Intel, like Microsoft, fought the EU's accusations.  Meanwhile the EU was hard at work, strengthening their case, by seizing documents in a raid of German Intel offices.

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Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Muirgheasa on 2/27/2008 4:06:12 PM , Rating: 5
...I'd like to make the point that this article is disappointingly biased. The phrase "seeking Microsoft gold" implies that Microsoft is fully within its rights to do what it's doing. Clearly this isn't the case; under US law, yes, it's probably fine. It's not just operating in the US though, and it has to comply with EU law too. In fact this latest fine is essentially for refusing to accept the ruling which was initially made.

The whys and wherefores of the case are past now - Microsoft lost and acted as if it was above the law by failing to fully comply with the rulings.

A clash of cultures is clearly in evidence here (or at least will be once a couple more posts come in): Europeans, for the most part, value the freedom of small companies to operate in a monopoly free environment, whereas those from the US prefer to give free markets free reign. Unfortunately for Microsoft it isn't free to choose its own set of rules.

Personally I think that this ruling is good for computer users on the whole, but that's almost beside the point of this news article - this is just about Microsoft failing to comply with the rules.




RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By RogueSpear on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By dever on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Ammohunt on 2/27/2008 4:26:05 PM , Rating: 4
Read: We support the domestic unions and anti-capitalists.
i.e.
if you fart somewhere in Europe don't be surprised when the United Farters Union of Europe hauls your ass to the EC for unsanctioned flatulence.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By jarman on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Samus on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 8:59:56 AM , Rating: 2
Whats the purpose of getting a speeding ticket.

To correct unwanted behaviour.

And like whit speeding ticket if you don't pay(1) them they get higher and higher till you do pay them.

Every/most Americans here is talking like the EU wanted to give MS the fine just to take there money.
Seen a interview whit Commissioner Neelie Kroes, she was having a hard time whit it giving the fine and frustrated by the lack cooperation and arrogance of MS.

(read: opening up protocols and publish documentation and have reasonable licenses, so companies can make software to work proper whit windows)

BTW, Neelie Kroes use to be one of the most right wing member of the VVD a Dutch right wing party
CV Neelie Kroes http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/commission/...


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By P4blo on 2/29/2008 5:54:29 AM , Rating: 3
The US gov isn't going to spank Microsoft that hard because it's a US company and a very important one at that! They want MS to stay globally dominant. The EU on the other hand, doesn't hold it in such high regard - who can blame them? The EU is more concerned with the thousands of EU companies that would like to be able to work affordably and integrate closely with Microsoft products so they too can share the wealth.

I also think the guy who wrote this article should be a reporter for fox news! Classic example of displaying emotional involvement with the writing style. Otherwise the choice of words wouldn't be so inflamatory.

DailyTech needs to decide if it wants to be 'fun' reading or 'trustworthy, impartial' reading I think.


By SiliconJon on 3/2/2008 2:04:03 PM , Rating: 2
I call for a repeat of that last sentence, please: DailyTech needs to decide if it wants to be 'fun' reading or 'trustworthy, impartial' reading I think.

And I vote for the latter.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 7:53:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Read: We support the domestic unions and anti-capitalists.
i.e.
if you fart somewhere in Europe don't be surprised when the United Farters Union of Europe hauls your ass to the EC for unsanctioned flatulence.

Man, you Americans have a narrow minded view of the world.

In thinking your way is the best and the only way of doing business.
There are 6.000.000.000 people that live not in the US and most of them think "the American way" is not there way.

If it works for you fine, live and do they way you like, but don't try to push it on to me.

And they are not all your enemy, but if you tread them that way and insult them all the time. they going to be.
Haven't seen any Europeans here call you "capitalistic pigs" ore "the new Nazi's of the world"

I am not going to say the EU is a utopia, far from that we got big problems, just like the US got them.

But if that "American way" means that i have to live in a country ware.

1. that ranks 45 in the world as far as life expectancy. (from spot 11, 20 years ago)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
2. A third to half of all citizens lack even basic health care.
3. Roughly 12% of citizens live below the poverty line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United...

And yes, poverty is high now also in the EU because of the new eastern members that joined the EU.
But unlike the US that's keeping Mexico and S and M-America down, we are trying to help out those countries to get the same standard of living as we have.

Then yes, you can keep you pure capitalism, i like mine whit a bit of socialism.

But you should watch this BBC documentary "the century of self", its how the masses getting brainwashed.
And NO, its not done by a lefty, because it's also pretty hard on the left parties.

Its a real eye opener and should be shown mandatory to all students around age 14~16 at school,
Its a long sit (4 x 60min) and its very interesting but also sometimes boring (what cant be helped).

But i dear you and all Right but also Left-wing to see it, and afterward saying you still see everything the same way.

Because after seeing this you will now when and how you are being manipulated, by so-well left and right and big corporations.

And maybe some have to see it 2 times to befor geting it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_Of_The_Se...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/feature...
quote:
From Wikipedia:
Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, changed the perception of the human mind and its workings profoundly. His influence on the 20th century is widely regarded as massive. The documentary describes the impact of Freud's theories on the perception of the human mind, and the ways public relations agencies and politicians have used this during the last 100 years for their "engineering of consent".

part 1~4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-263763536...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-611192272...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1122532358...

Ore do a Bit-Torrent search on "The Century Of The Self" and download the hole series


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By FITCamaro on 2/27/2008 4:53:01 PM , Rating: 2
No this is an issue of the EU trying to dictate what companies can charge customers to make interoperable software with their product. And their dislike of American based companies having an advantage over their own.

Even at the original 3.87/2.93% of their revenues for patent info/communication info, that is hardly absurd. You sell your product that uses some interoperability information that Microsoft provides for $100, you give Microsoft at most $6.80 per copy. Seems fair to me.

Then they changed it to .7/.5%. So you need the info and sell your product for $100, you pay them at most $1.20 per copy. Still wasn't good enough for the EU. So they changed it to a flat $14,900 + optional worldwide patent license for .4% of revenues. Hardly unfair.

If they had revenues of $100 million for a year, they'd have only paid the original $14,900 fee and potentially only $400,000 in patent license fees which are good worldwide. Under half a percent of their revenues. Even if their profit was only 5%, they'd still have made over $4.5 million dollars. And the $14,900 fee isn't out of reach of smaller businesses either.

To me at some point there's going to be no point for Microsoft to do business in the EU. If they're constantly paying out hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in bogus fines, whats the point? Any profits will be eroded by those fees. Windows is a Microsoft product. They invested their time and money to develop it. If a company wants to make money off Microsoft's time and effort, they should have to compensate Microsoft for it.

To me Microsoft should just give the EU the middle finger and say "What are you going to do?" And what can they do? Not let them sell their product? I think businesses over in Europe would be pretty pissed. Fine with me too since then maybe they'll move their businesses over here to the states where we let companies make money on the products they work hard to develop and don't charge outrageous corporate taxes.

I'd love to know what kind of fees Apple charges for its proprietary info.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:15:15 PM , Rating: 5
Here is a list of all the 2007 antitrust cases in the EU:

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/antitrust/cas...

Please show me that all of those companies are american. Oh surprise they are NOT!

Thats because the EU fines EVERYONE who does not obey the law. Its soft of a principle.


By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:15:48 PM , Rating: 1
soft = sort :)


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By FITCamaro on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 2:45:59 AM , Rating: 3
1)Of course. All other complied with the law.
2)5 out of 20-30? American companies are above the EU law?


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Adonlude on 2/28/2008 12:20:21 PM , Rating: 1
They seem to only go after the rich American companies. I think this is total BS. If they want to go after Microsoft, Intel, and Texas Instruments then why cant we just say "no more software or silicon for you EU"?

Ya I know it would cost the companies far more to do this but I really wish they would do it anyway. American companies should not be infusing the EU with billions of dollars.

Get out your sextant and dust off your abacus EU, no more computers for you!


By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 12:36:05 PM , Rating: 1
The fact is that if MS withdrew from EU the biggest single market on the world would suddenly go for alternatives like Linux, MacOSX, BSD. With that market share MS would even more forced to play by international standards and protocols. Also the piracy rates of MS windows would go sky rocket.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 9:29:01 AM , Rating: 2
Really, it dose not look to me like the EU is soft on EU companies.

Dutch brewer Heineken got fined for EUR219.3m ($330m) for anti competitive behavior in Holland only (population 17m)
But they are not so stupid not to comply whit the ruling, otherwise they would be fined the same way as MS.
http://www.just-drinks.com/article.aspx?id=93048&l...

So saying EU is only specially harsh on US companies is just not true

The first fine in 2004 was $357 million, and if you don't do what you supposed to do (follow the local law) they will get higher and that's how you end up at 1.4 billion.

BTW if you don't follow US law, don't you get higher fines every time you don't follow them till you do ?


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 10:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
Ooo yeah btw
The EU stock markets cap alone is worth $15,720,000,000,000

Yeah "stealing" some (1,4bn) money from MS is really the only thing that's keeping Europe standing and saving our "United Farters Union of anti-capitalists" asses


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Motley on 2/28/08, Rating: -1
By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 8:22:30 AM , Rating: 1
"by Motley on February 28, 2008 at 5:30 AM

Out of that list, there are 4 tech companies. All of them american.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Texas Instruments. I guess real telling of a tech company is whether the EU is trying to steal your money away."

just one example:

Siemens (european and tech company) was fined 751M € alone in the first instance. they just where not stupid (or arrogant) enough not to comply the ruling, otherwhise their fine would have gone up just as that of microsoft did.

microsofts fine is the highest of all, just because they thougt of themselves as standing above the law. had they complied to the ruling in the first place, their fine would have been 497M € and thus way away from being the highest penalty dished out by the eu.


By ikkeman on 2/27/2008 9:39:46 PM , Rating: 5
by your own calculation. If the company had a 5% profit margin, MS would have taken all with their 3.87/2.93% fee over revenue!

The fine is based on the earning resulting from non-compliance. That means the 1.4B fine is actually the amount MS earned from not obeying the law - no harm, just no profits either


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Calin on 2/28/08, Rating: 0
By FITCamaro on 2/28/2008 10:35:37 AM , Rating: 1
Almost every major software product has undocumented system calls.

I work with a Requirements Management system which has its own scripting language. There are tons of undocumented features. Do any of its users sue? No. Because its just a fact of software. If we find one we can use, we do so but they don't support it.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By twnorows on 2/28/08, Rating: 0
By Frallan on 2/29/2008 3:47:18 AM , Rating: 2
If u were running Microsoft it would be bankrupted within 5 years...


By Muirgheasa on 2/29/2008 4:05:35 AM , Rating: 2
Couldn't bring myself to read your whole post, because your syntax is awfully difficult to follow. Basically though, you think Microsoft are above the law?

Then you said something about Governments being monopolies, which would be an intelligent comment except that (at least in the EU) governments are elected. National and European Parliaments are voted in directly, then the (democratically elected) governments nominate commissioners to go on the commission. I fail to see how this is the same as Microsoft ignoring a legal ruling (which is what this story is about).

If you can explain with proper sentences, please do.


By michael67 on 2/29/2008 10:00:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Here's the REAL fact: Microsoft has leveraged it's expertise and knowledge over the last 30 years to become one of the greatest companies EVER on the face of the planet.

Uuuhh your talking a bout a company like its your favorite football team,
Think man, they don't give a shit about you, they only want your money.

I really would suggest that you rethink your life and what you want whit it :-)


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 5:08:59 PM , Rating: 5
I always look forward to articles about EU fines on MS on DailyTech. You just know the staff hates EU so the articles will be biased, altho this time is was pretty much to the point after the first few sentences.

But then all the retards starts chiming in about MS should pull out of Europe, not pay the fine and so on. First of all i doubt any of them have any clue how stupid that would be of MS.

1) The EU can seize MS's property in the EU if MS does not pay the fine.
2) The EU can void MS copyright, patents and so on in the EU. That would make all current and future products from MS free in Europe (and it would be legal to download it from piratebay.org too)

Then some suggests that US should take actions. The US thats heading right into a recession - you want them to go into an economic struggle with EU, the worlds largest economy, over a software company? Good luck with the daydreaming.

What will happen is that MS will pay the fine and comply with the law, like everyone else in the EU. There really is no alternative.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Spuke on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
By GreenyMP on 2/27/2008 6:20:55 PM , Rating: 4
BBC gets their news from the same biased sources.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By finalfan on 2/27/2008 6:30:59 PM , Rating: 2
Certainly MS will not quit, but charge a higher price for each copy of MS software sold in EU to recover the fine. Guess who got pissed? EU! Surprise? It's just one more tax for those poor EU people. No wonder they cannot compete.


By Calin on 2/28/2008 3:48:27 AM , Rating: 2
Even so, the EU commission will have eroded a bit the advantage Microsoft has over its would be competitors - when the cost for something increases, you are more attracted to alternatives (even if they might not be as good).
I've recently seen an offer for a laptop for about $567 with Windows Vista - yet, without Windows Vista it was $412. If I was in the market for a laptop, I would have bought it. If Microsoft increases the price of its software, you might save not 30% but maybe 40% or more - and suddenly there is a possible market outside of Microsoft programs


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By TestKing123 on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By zpdixon on 2/28/2008 3:11:15 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

The Eurozone is larger when combining total output of all member nations, but the unity ends there.


It looks like you don't understand how the EU work. We are a single market ! Free movement of goods, services, capital, and people. There is zero restriction !

Largest economy in the world, largest exporter, second largest importer, biggest trading partner to China and the USA. It is as simple as that :)


By TestKing123 on 2/28/2008 10:15:39 AM , Rating: 4
It doesn't seem you understand how your own system works. You were a "single" market (for participating members at least) even before the introduction of the euro. The introduction of the euro made transactions alot easier with a single currency, but you are still subject to the laws of your individual countries, which DOES affect the movement of goods and services (and of course people). It is why the IMF still ranks the largest "single" economy in the world as the United States, and why "it's not as simple as that :). "

Of course, it won't matter much in a few years, as the United States will surpass the EU economically. Other than this bump, the US has been outpacing the EU in economic growth over the last decade, and stagnant growth has been problematic for the EU.

While the larger eurozone countries like France and Germany bicker over what economic policies to enforce (and therefore forcing policies that can adversly affect smaller nations, most notably newly joined eastern european nations), the prerequisites set by the EU Central Bank for debt/defecit are ignored. In essence, the ECB is supposed to fine any country of the eurozone that violate those policies (France and Germany again). No fines have been implemented for these violations, but yet the EU fines Microsoft after Microsoft had already agreed and implemented change.


By Sandok on 2/28/2008 6:05:38 PM , Rating: 1
Outpacing the EU in economic power? With a dollar that's loosing out to the Euro (and many companies loyal to the $ wavering), trust me, the US is in deep trouble in the near future. Don't forget, the US is a major importer and a pathethic exporter and right now, with such a weak currency, that fundamental balance is being tested.

The next President can sink or swim the country but economically, the US is loosing not to the EU, but to China and other "new" powers.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Motley on 2/28/2008 5:33:41 AM , Rating: 3
1) That's true. The EU can seize a portion of MS's property that resides within EU territories.

2) Is technically correct, but then the EU would be in violation of international treaties, which would legally lead up to anything including embargo from the rest of the world and/or miliary action.

The EU is big, but they aren't without restraint either.


By Frallan on 2/29/2008 3:54:19 AM , Rating: 2
Re: 2: I do not think that sizing the property and voiding patents from a company that has broken the law is a break agains any treaties. But It will never be tested since MS has fought EU and lost and now complies with rules and fines immediatly.

Acctually just that MS doesn't fight shows that the leagal minds in MS has allready evaluated this before and probably knew it was coming.


By Strunf on 2/29/2008 7:13:27 PM , Rating: 2
Legally lead to what?...

The US makes illegal wars, violates the WTO agreements countless time and I'm yet to see a country embargoing the US... the fact is big economies are pretty much outside of the WTO scope, this is why China, the EU, the US and a bunch of other countries keep violating the WTO agreements.

Besides who in perfect state of mind would make an embargo to a 400 million people market... only the US cares about MS, China and all the other countries would keep doing business regardless of what the US says. Actually that would just push Europe closer to Russia... which is not on the US best interest.


By whirabomber on 2/28/2008 8:03:36 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds more like the EU is going after MS to force it to give free technology to backwards EU IT companies that can't compete. MS is being forced to "share" technology with other EU companies so they can build competing products. That falls into the "stupid" category that makes me not to want to trade with the EU at all.

EU - we can't compete with software technology so who will we sue to get some free technology from today?

-or-

EU - don't do it better than us or we'll sue you.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By Fireshade on 2/28/2008 8:33:14 AM , Rating: 3
Another baseless comment.
This has nothing to do with "sharing" and "giving" technology to EU IT companies.
This is about MS not following EU law.

And guess who started this anti trust case?
Novell and SUN Microsystems! Yes, American companies! :)


By whirabomber on 2/29/2008 6:57:08 AM , Rating: 2
"Microsoft has been asked to hand over documentation to its competitors detailing the inner workings of its software applications or face daily $2.6 million USD fines."

The latest is over "feature remove" that, without ever seeing the product, the EU claims "stiffles competition."

Either there are 2 seperate cases, which the media doesn't clarify or the EU just keeps adding stuff on.

Where are your sources stating Novell and Sun started this whole thing. From all the articles I could find on it, not one stated anything about Sun or Novell initiating the action. Without any support for your claims, you are just making stuff up.

Honestly, why would Microsoft prevent people from building applications that work on its products? The effort to do so would undermine its dominance in the market - if no one makes software to run on your OS (google BEOS), what good is your OS?

BTW, when is the EU going after Nintento for their Mario and Princess Peach monopoly? Oh wait, they won't because doing so won't help any EU tech companies be anymore useful outside the EU.


RE: Before the EU bashers come out in numbers...
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 5:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
What do SUN and Novell build again ?

Thats right SQL Server & Exchange Server like systems.

What do they want from MS to now how to intergrade them in Windows server.
What dose MS want, no compation on there server software.


By Setsunayaki on 3/1/2008 1:50:52 PM , Rating: 1
I don't care what you Europeans say....We may have a president who is DUMBER than a monkey and yes....I do admit Americans are scum when it comes to respecting the rest of the world....but......the reality is this...

The European Union Parliament was APPOINTED and NOT ELECTED and they have more power than ANY NATIONAL leader....so they can appoint some person from CHINA to be in the EU....and any EU member can go to any EU member nation and say "You will do X, Y and Z...."

At least Americans Still have a voice and live in a sovereign nation. Europeans...You gave up your own sovereignty and now you are becoming like the United States....

I used to go to EUROPE and enjoy things there...Now I can't enjoy things there since now almost everything there is now made in CHINA, quality of life is going downhill. The Madrid and Paris we loved as a family no longer exists and now everytime I see places....I always say "why did I travel here when the this place is becoming like the US?"

You may have had poverty. You may have had millions of problems...but before you had the EU...YOU WERE FREE....and MUCH MORE FREE than us Americans who have to deal with a CENTRAL government sucking the life out of us....Now you are STUCK with the EUROPEAN UNION and must deal with the same blood we have dealt with from our own government...

You want to redeem yourself.....Picket the European Union Parliament and DEMAND to have ELECTIONS on who joins the European Union Parliament.....

Do this and I will give you Europeans lifelong respect and I will even travel there and render aid in resisting that Artistocratic Fascist Conglomerate.

Before you tell me how good the EU is...OPEN YOUR EYES and learn that you just gave your nations away and sold your existence away......

Fight for your freedom and eliminate the elements of Tyrany...and restore your dignity and freedom...and I will respect you once again...

Until then you have no RIGHT TO BASH THE UNITED STATES...

We may be assholes
We may be creeps in your mind

But we are one sovereign nation and we STILL HAVE A VOICE...while you Europeans let your leaders sell you out!

Good day. Setsunayaki is my AIM if you are interested in a real chat....^_^

good luck.


Who's the money going to?
By Spranked on 2/27/2008 4:06:08 PM , Rating: 1
To be honest it seems like the EU is using them to supplement their funds. Odds are I'm wrong and Microsoft deserves what's happening to them for not complying early enough but it still feels that way to me.

Who does the money actually go to though? I'm wondering if it goes to the disenfranchised companies that had to deal with Microsoft in the first place.




RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/27/2008 4:43:14 PM , Rating: 3
Sad truth is it goes to French vineyards. Because no one wants to buy their overpriced wine any more, excess grapes are fermented then distilled and sold as vodka around the world. So next time you grab a cheap bottle of grey goose thank the EU for leeching on Microsoft.

On second thought I wouldn't mind paying double for windows if the European courts keep this up.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By FITCamaro on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/27/2008 5:16:34 PM , Rating: 2
Did you just pull that out of your ass? Thought so. The EU doesn't spend money on welfare, its member countries independently do so. About 50% of the budget goes to farming subsidies, with France being the single largest recipient.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By TALENT on 2/27/2008 5:45:39 PM , Rating: 2
EU does indeed support the lazy layabouts in extreme amounts. I now have 6 new European neighbors who moved to the US to escape the government. Unfortunately for them they don't realize they jumped from the kettle right into the fire.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Spuke on 2/27/2008 6:13:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Unfortunately for them they don't realize they jumped from the kettle right into the fire.
Yup, wait till all the companies bail on their medical benefits once the "free" medical gets into full swing. They'll be going right back to Europe. A friend made a point that no American citizen should be without healthcare and, I agree, but I'm not willing to pay for it nor will that healthcare just be for citizens.

I'm predicting a future where I'll be working a low paying (which means lower taxes), stress free job just so I don't have to sweat any of this crap anymore. I woun't care what happens.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/27/2008 8:50:08 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not going to argue against universal healthcare, it's a nice idea and all. But I have yet seen them draw a line in the sand. Will it be for everyone in the U.S.? Will it be for everyone who enters a U.S. medical facility? Only for citizens? I mean, where does one draw the line. If they want to give it to U.S. citizens only, ok that's fine, but how would they enforce it? Ok let's say everyone who pays taxes (since that will have to pay for the healthcare), how do we tell who pays taxes and who doesn't? Who will get exemptions because their pay is too low?

I've not seen any realistic implementation from anyone. It's a really nice idea, but nobody seems to have it figured out.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Chaser on 2/27/2008 10:08:14 PM , Rating: 2
The implementation is going quite well. It's already doing a great job at buying votes for some presidential candidates. How does government health care get paid for? "Vote me in and I'll take it from someone else and give it to you".

You know that "fat cat money" that just grows on trees. As long as there's someone with more than me then please take it from him.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Duwelon on 2/27/2008 10:35:39 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, and what these well meaning, bleeding heart liberals don't understand is that it's our current system and freedoms that allowed them to thrive in the first place. Start taking everyone's money away who has some and see how motivated they still are to make more. I truely fear the day when universal healthcare takes over america because it will not be pretty and it will not cost anywhere near what is stated.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By RaulF on 2/28/2008 5:41:52 AM , Rating: 2
This whole Free Health care thing is not that good of an idea guys. I was in vacation a few years ago in Europe and i had to go to the hospital because a family member got bit by a dog. Let's just say that US hospital put it to shame real bad. But i do want to say thanks for the service offcourse. I had to pay out of my pocket, but it was not too expensive.

P.S. Some of the doctors were Military doctors. In fact the whole experience felt like American Military Health care system.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Motley on 2/28/2008 5:41:05 AM , Rating: 2
Fund it from sales tax. Anyone who buys or sells stuff in the US is then covered, including visitors.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By FITCamaro on 2/28/2008 10:43:38 AM , Rating: 2
Sales tax is a state and county tax. That money goes to fund local needs. Not federal programs.

I am vehemently against universal health care. Why should I have to pay for someone else to get treated? I have health care. Quite good too. If you don't, sorry. Get a job that offers good health care or pay for it. If you can't do either of those things, thats not my fault so why should I be punished for it?

Worried about that your kids don't have good health care? Well if you couldn't provide for them, maybe you shouldn't have had them. We've got way too many people in this country having kids, not being able to support them properly, and then whining that the government doesn't do more to make their life easier. Maybe you should have put on a condom, taken birth control, or just plain not had sex.

My girlfriend says she wants 4 kids some day. I say no. Why? Because I doubt I could properly support 4 kids. I'm not going to have them unless I have the money to give them what they need.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 11:18:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not going to have them unless I have the money to give them what they need.

I wish more people had this kind of sense.

I have to agree with your argument. Unfortunately it's firmly rooted in most major religions and it's in the Bible that part of their duty is to reproduce. This is not true, humans have the capability to reproduce but you can't expect other people to pick up the slack because you decided not to reign it in. With the ready availability of contraceptives it shouldn't be a problem to have your fun and not procreate in the process.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By MagicSquid on 2/29/2008 4:13:17 AM , Rating: 2
Have you guys watched the movie "Idiocracy" lately? You should.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 6:01:40 PM , Rating: 2
hehehe, "thats a good one" LOL

But they properly dont get it, they are from the future ;-)


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Ringold on 2/28/2008 2:31:57 AM , Rating: 2
Typical liberal. Attacked FIT, then accidently admitted he was right.

What'd he say? One thing was that the EU supports uncompetitive firms. Then you admit 50% of the EU budget goes to farming subsidies. If you don't see the hypocrisy in that, then you're beyond my help.

As far as direct welfare spending; a direct quote:

"education and training, culture, employment and social policy,"

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/budget_glance/index_en....

Those fall under the broader category of welfare spending. They are so vague you could fly a Deathstar through their language anyway. Easier to spend your money that way.

I also see they spent nearly 47 billion euro's on "cohesion." Why do I get the idea that you could've bought an immense amount of super-glue for 47 billion euros.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By random git on 2/28/2008 4:57:48 AM , Rating: 2
Gotta give you props for digging out a link. But again we see neo-ncons cherry picking the data they want to see and presenting it out of context tsk tsk. To give a fuller quote:

"for example in agriculture, fisheries, infrastructure (construction of roads, bridges and railways), education and training, culture, employment and social policy"

Agriculture was listed first and social policy 8th. Since the items are not in alphabetical order I'll go out on a leg and say they're in order of importance. Don't you worry. You'll get your share of liberal attacks some other time.


RE: Who's the money going to?
By robinthakur on 2/28/2008 8:43:11 AM , Rating: 2
I'm surprised the French farmers need such big subsidies. Given the world beating standards for their food you would think they could export more of it and turn a considerable profit! I can only imagine that its because they are artificially keeping prices lowered for the internal population...odd.

I must be keeping the champage industry in profit (unlike the wine market which is dying on the vine sadly) as we get through a bottle most nights and more at weekends lol Unfortunately most people are cost-limited and therefore just buy the cheapest they can find in terms of wine, and pay little heed for quality...


RE: Who's the money going to?
By Frallan on 2/29/2008 4:06:56 AM , Rating: 2
Well Im a Swede living in Germany. And allthough I do like French wines I do not like the EU agricultural subsisidies. It is going to change but it takes time. I hope that Agricultural will only amount to 1/5 of the budget in 15 years.


Windows N
By BMFPitt on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Windows N
By Mitch101 on 2/27/2008 4:06:53 PM , Rating: 5
The EU consumer loses in the end.

The price of Windows OS will just be doubled in the EU along with all the software and support.


RE: Windows N
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 4:51:59 PM , Rating: 1
No it wont, since that would be illegal.


RE: Windows N
By rtk on 2/27/2008 5:33:22 PM , Rating: 2
so, the government decides what a company can charge for a product?

EU citizens, the Lexus and audi brand cars are easily double the price of a Hyundai, the fact that they are of higher quality, etc. seems to be irrelevant.


RE: Windows N
By eye smite on 2/27/2008 5:58:33 PM , Rating: 4
I agree, Hyundai is a better brand........I think I got that backwards. heh


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/27/2008 5:52:36 PM , Rating: 3
Price of Windows is relative. Microsoft can charge whatever they want. If they decide that Windows will be $500 per person in the EU, people can either buy it or consider alternatives. The EU can't dictate pricing of a product like windows. They are currently dictating the price of interoperability which "supposedly" is preventing many software companies from writing software for Windows. What you will see then is a shift where Microsoft charges OEM Vendors an extra $10 for each machine with Windows, and a 10% increase for all licensing agreements with corporations with maintenance contracts. The money will be made regardless of the EU's meddling. Tax source A, company charges a premium on source B, C and D to compensate. It's simple economics.

Frankly I've never had a problem writing software on Windows and I think this is simply a couple of open source groups and maybe a few tiny 5 man software shops coming out of the woodwork with unsuccessful products looking to make some money back or make it cheaper to continue to operate rather than play with the same rules the big boys play with.

If I was Symantec or Adobe I would be suing the EU saying this is unfair because it favors these little shops and hurts large enterprises that have invested billions of dollars in research and product development. You know Microsoft is not going to give these new fees to anyone outside of Europe, and that means Symantec, Adobe, small U.S. businesses, etc...


RE: Windows N
By Duwelon on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Windows N
By emboss on 2/28/2008 3:02:38 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Frankly I've never had a problem writing software on Windows and I think this is simply a couple of open source groups and maybe a few tiny 5 man software shops coming out of the woodwork with unsuccessful products looking to make some money back or make it cheaper to continue to operate rather than play with the same rules the big boys play with.


You (and everyone else who has commented on the API issue) need to read up on basis for the case. This is not about APIs - that was sorted out in the late 90's through lawsuits in the US (which is why Office, for example, only uses fully documented Win32 functions).

This is about protocols. The charge was that MS was using it's dominance in the desktop area to muscle in on the server area, via closed protocols such as SMB. The ruling was that MS must make documentation on these protocols available. They didn't provide the documentation within the required time and so got fined for it.

MS had already been required to do this (more or less) as a result of the US antitrust proceedings. The key was that in the US, the terms of the settlement essentially excluded open source implementations, which by that point were MS's only real competitors. The EU was requiring that MS licence the documentation to open source projects as well, and they were (quite reasonably) rather against the idea.

There was also some stuff about media players, but this was irrelevant to the fine (not to mention completely pointless) - MS complied with this part of the ruling very quickly.


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 9:11:30 AM , Rating: 2
I'm aware of the charge regarding the protocols yet see little evidence to indicate customers were somehow harmed by this. "Trade Secrets" still do exist. On the flip side I disagree with the open source ideology. I don't write software to share with the world freely. I write software for my company to keep my job, which in turn uses this software in conjunction with other software/systems to turn a tidy profit and gain an edge over competitors. I make a good salary and keep a good job because of my knowledge and skillsets. The last thing I need is a bunch of open source advocates telling my company they need to give it all away for pennies. No thanks, closed source for me. Infact because of the open source license agreements about being required to publish changes to source code, or plaster the original creators name all over the app, my company actively avoids open source like the plague. Anything and everything we do is IP held by our company. If anyone wants it, they are going to pay a nice price for it, pending we are feeling like making that available. In most cases we keep it to ourselves and use it to one up our competitors.


RE: Windows N
By emboss on 2/28/2008 10:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm aware of the charge regarding the protocols yet see little evidence to indicate customers were somehow harmed by this.


Checked Windows Server prices recently? :)

The withholding of protocol information was one of the major components of MS's (very successful) strategy against Novell. Ironically, it could be said that Novell's strategy of tying everything to (the closed spec) NDS stifled competition within the server market ... which brings me to my second point:

quote:
If anyone wants it, they are going to pay a nice price for it, pending we are feeling like making that available. In most cases we keep it to ourselves and use it to one up our competitors.


Vendor lock-in (including prevention of interop by legal means such as patents) and product tying are two of the primary ways in which tech companies hold on to and expand market share. While annoying to the consumer, there's nothing illegal about it for a "normal" company. However, like many laws, it changes when the company is in a position of market dominance. This is why noone cares that Apple ties iLife to OS X (neither product could be said to be dominant in any market), but there's unhappy rumblings about iTunes being tied to the iPod.

quote:
On the flip side I disagree with the open source ideology. I don't write software to share with the world freely.


That's fine. Noone is asking you to give away your code (and noone was asking MS to give away their code). Personally, I'm for open standards for interop, but ambivalent towards open source. I hate it when two different toolchains have features that would make my life easier, but I'm forced to choose between them because they won't talk to each other. However, I couldn't care less about whether the tools themselves were open source or not, as long as they get the job done.

Personally, I do commercial/closed-source development to pay the bills, but release most of the stuff developed in my own time as open source (public domain, unless I'm prevented for doing so by the licences of components that I use).


RE: Windows N
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 11:13:07 AM , Rating: 2
Windows server isn't much more costly than Mac OSX Server or Novell Suse. Frankly, if anyone needs to be raked over the coals for server pricing BMC Remedy and Oracle are at the top of my list. Need an astrophysics degree to calculate the price and it always comes to something that's simply out of this world. I have to give Microsoft credit for atleast a fairly baseline pricing structure even if it is higher than I might prefer.


RE: Windows N
By Martimus on 2/27/2008 4:20:28 PM , Rating: 5
They won't do that. That would kill their defacto monopoly on mainsteam OS's, since another OS would have to pick up the slack in Europe. Then MS would have to fight against another competitor in a market where they haven't had any real competition in years. I can't see them making that mistake, although I would like it if they did. At least then I would have more hope that I will have more options in the future for OS purchases.


RE: Windows N
By INeedCache on 3/2/2008 7:54:37 PM , Rating: 2
Why don't some of the EU supporters explain how Windows N benefited the consumer?


Why is the EU even involved?
By PWNettle on 2/27/2008 5:41:17 PM , Rating: 5
Shouldn't EU consumers really be making the decisions here?

If you don't like MS, which apparently many of the elitist euros here don't, then simply don't use it. Stick with Linux, a text editor, and Firefox. You don't really need premium softare or games. Or use Apple with proprietery everything. You don't really need to be able to modify your own computer (has Apple been fined by EU yet for this?).

There are other options.

I'm sure your grandma would love Linux and open source software.

I surely don't think MS is perfect and they are obviously aggressive with their practices, as are most companies that want to make money, even *gasp* europeans (americans are descendant from euros so where do you think we get our greed from, eh?), but I think it's pretty ridiculous for the EU to arbitrarily come up with a fine of this size.

Who gets the money? The incompetent devs who can't write software? The windbags of the EU that make up this crap? The average consumer?

Gates is retiring and MS has enough money. I'd just pull the plug on EU.




RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By brian26 on 2/27/2008 5:52:52 PM , Rating: 1
It has to be freaking annoying to be targeted by the Eu union every day. They spend their resources on finding ways to F successful american companies over. I swear if i were microsoft I would just give them the middle finger and pull the heck out. No one is forcing them to use microsoft products. If they want to NOT use microsoft products then they have to deal with the shit that comes from not using a Microsoft product. They shouldnt expect microsoft to say hey let us help you fix your software on a platform we dont own. Man this bs makes my blood boil.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By NullSubroutine on 2/27/2008 8:13:07 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Shouldn't EU consumers really be making the decisions here?


The point of this is that MS practices are resulting in them not having a choice.

The whole idea behind a monopoly is that a business exploits its position to keep its position through anti-consumer business practices. This in turn allows the business to exploit the consumer because there is no alternative for them to get the service.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/27/2008 9:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The point of this is that MS practices are resulting in them not having a choice.


That's ridiculous, no choice? Many versions of Linux, Apple solutions, browser selections, media player software, it's endless. How is MS being anti-competitive with Linux? One cost some bucks while the other can be had for free. As for Apple it's the opposite, you spend more for an Apple set-up. So how is being in the middle ground anti-competitive?

Which OS has the most popular software developed for it, Windows. Windows easier than Linux for grandma to use & more software than Apple. People WANT Windows & developers WANT to develop for it. It makes them more money than Linux & it's even more restricted for Apple.

MS should get more for their product. Are 3 or 4 games worth more than the software environment they run on or the hardware it enables to function? Is Adobe software worth more?

Face it, MS made the computer what it is. Apple had it's chance in the 80's and failed, MS revived it. If Apple had their way then, where would Intel, AMD, NVDIA, Adobe, Dell, ect. be? They would have been a wet dream. A speck of their current selves. MS has directly & indirectly driven the economy of the world.

I may sound like a fanboy, which I'm not. This is reality, Apple had their chance, Linux has far to go for grandma to enjoy it. But like it or not MS has made an impact like Ford in their day. Windows isn't hip like Apple or even cheap or free like Linux, Yet it's the top CHOICE of CONSUMERS. (as wrong as the gov't knows they are.)


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 2:56:49 AM , Rating: 2
Grandma is not a demanding audience. Last time when she was here and she needed to check her email she used my Linux machine and she didn't even noticed the difference. She just clicked firefox...


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 9:31:06 AM , Rating: 2
Your missing the point. Using the term grandma is shorter than saying less than 3% of the people I know, the majority, the illiterate computer user. You see how grandma is shorter. The point becomes as you said, a majority of people could use a Linux machine, but they could not fix a problem or ask how to do something because a majority of the people they would ask wouldn't know either. This holds true for windows also, but there are way more "novice" users that could fix a windows issue over a Linux one. That is the point, people aren't comfortable with it. I gave up when every time I upgraded I had to recompile or whatever a driver.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 12:11:58 PM , Rating: 2
Why fix it if it ain't broken. I never had to repair anything. When the new release came out I just reinstalled or updated. But I can relate to you, when I used windows as my main OS the half year format was mandatory.

I never had to compile a driver, but I use a cool mainstream version not some geek one. Only thing that I am missing is TVout support for my graphic card. ATI pls include that in the next release of catalyst drivers for Linux.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 3:01:47 PM , Rating: 2
I have tried it & yes I agree with the "if it ain't broken" mentality. But the problem comes from hardware upgrades & such. I would love to use it but I don't have the time. The time to find someone with personal knowledge, time to find the perfect software, time to find the correct drivers, the list goes on. The reason windows sells is convenience.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 4:04:59 PM , Rating: 2
What drivers. I haven't installed any. For windows I had to installed four different(for motherboard, graphic card and sound card) When I upgraded my sound card last week(proud owner of Audigy :=) ) everything was working out of the box. If that isn't convenience... But this are just my personal experiences.
Finding the right software largely depends what you are doing with your computer. If you surf the net, write documents, watch movies, listen to music, MSN, pdf, torrent ... like most people do then you don't have to find anything. If you are more demanding a GUI program finds a list of programs suited for the task in software channel. Install is just three clicks away. I think the main problem is getting used to new programs not finding them. Here I agree with you it's more convenient to use programs(and OS) that you are used to.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By caqde on 2/28/2008 3:26:29 AM , Rating: 1
....................

Umm let's get this straight from the consumer view point. Duhh computer on shelf.. hmm windows windows windows, IE, hmm Media player.. Windows Media. umm yeah... Please. Unless they are told about it the product doesn't exist. Hell even if you do tell them about it you must point them to it. And Linux heck you can't even get linux 90% of the time unless you own a computer (That has Windows) on it in the first place.

I'm not saying I don't use Windows. I'm just stating the facts Microsoft is a MONOPOLY get over it.

quote:
MS should get more for their product. Are 3 or 4 games worth more than the software environment they run on or the hardware it enables to function? Is Adobe software worth more?

Let me put this into perspective for you. I am super gigantic company and I know for a fact that I am GUARANTEED to get money on my product no matter how much of a piece of shit I make (Not that they have, just could well maybe Windows ME) that I am going to be able to sell massive quantities of whatever I make just because it is a copy of Windows. So exactly what RISK is Microsoft taking to make this product? Almost NONE. I don't see why they need as much as they do for their product. And please get your prices checked. 3 or 4 games what for the basic consumer version OEM maybe. It's 200-400 Retail and ~120-270 for an Upgrade/OEM. But once you go into the cost for Business's and MSDN subscriber licenses..... Trust me they are getting their money..


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 9:36:50 AM , Rating: 2
I will guarantee you wouldn't even sell as many computers if they had Linux. Like I said unless it's changed (which I hope it has) it's a pain in the butt just to upgrade hardware over a windows machine. There is nothing stopping an OEM from installing Linux, Dell is trying it. Now tell me why only Dell. For the attention only, their business couldn't survive off of Linux. If it is a monopoly it's because there is no good alternative.


RE: Why is the EU even involved?
By rsmech on 2/28/2008 9:42:13 AM , Rating: 2
As far as making junk software why do you think they are having issues with Vista taking off, XP is still preferred. If the next product isn't as good as the previous you will not convince many to upgrade, = less money. That being said my opinion is that XP is better as of now so why would I buy Vista. I also consider XP more valuable than 4 computer games.


How is it the EU's fault?
By Moohbear on 2/27/2008 5:22:43 PM , Rating: 4
I don't understand all this EU bashing. The european commission has been involved in an anti-thrust case by disgruntled competitors. If I recall correctly, it was Real Networks that was the main plaintiff in the Microsoft case. Real has nothing to do with Europe, it's a US company. Same with Intal. Who complained? AMD, based in Texas...
Besides, US companies are not the only ones getting slapped by the european commission and anti-thrust cases are not limited to Europe. Aren't Japan and South Korea also investigating Intel after AMD cried foul?
Each country has it's own laws and companies have to work with them or not do business there. I guess MS is still making a profit after all that crap since they haven't pulled out (what companies do when they're losing money).




RE: How is it the EU's fault?
By wolfpack1825 on 2/27/2008 5:37:33 PM , Rating: 3
SONY is the next one the EU want in there targets. EU is a joke and needs to be squashed before no one has any money left. I agree companies should pay fines, but this is getting absurd.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/04/european-commis...


RE: How is it the EU's fault?
By nofranchise on 2/28/2008 3:00:43 AM , Rating: 4
Thats just rich... Yessss...let's szquash zhe evil commie Europeans because they have laws corporations have to abide!

Why is it so many of you guys get all foamy around the mouth when defending a COMPANY? I could understand it, if it was a question of national pride, but a corporation thats dedicated to making money none of you will ever see!!?

And yet it is incredible funny reading every little sad post about the EU milking MS, because it needs the money...

This isnt nationalism, it's corporatism, defending companies you really shouldn't care about - they don't care about you at all and would NEVER defend the average citizen. Isn't it a US law, that corporations must make the maximum amount of profit for their investors? So unless you are an investor - always good to mention for disclosure - stop defending these companies like you are a freaking zealot!

Disclosure - Denizen of a social-democratic nation enjoying universal healthcare since 1973.


RE: How is it the EU's fault?
By Motley on 2/28/2008 5:49:38 AM , Rating: 2
I like the idea that when I hit it big, and my company takes off that the likes of the EU won't be trying to suck money out of me just because I'm successful.

Disclosure - Denizen of a nation enjoying healthcare that's available when I want it, and doesn't make up crazy rulings just to fine large foreign companies since 1969.


By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 9:48:15 AM , Rating: 2
"I like the idea that when I hit it big, and my company takes off that the likes of the EU won't be trying to suck money out of me just because I'm successful.

Disclosure - Denizen of a nation enjoying healthcare that's available when I want it, and doesn't make up crazy rulings just to fine large foreign companies since 1969."

as long as you have no monopoly on a market and abuse this power to force yourself into other markets, like, say you have an os and bundle it up with a media-player to kick other players out of the market because yours will come installed by default on just about every pc out there, you and your company can take off as much as you like ...

that 'cracy ruling' you talk about is a set of laws to control monopolies, the us also has those by the way.

funny side note: the whole thing, that ended up with this fine by the eu was initiated by us-companies ...


RE: How is it the EU's fault?
By Fireshade on 2/28/2008 8:46:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I agree companies should pay fines, but this is getting absurd.

The fine seems only absurd, because MS just didn't comply with the ruling. The fine was an amount per day of non-compliance. So it was in MS's own control how much the fine went up. They were just stupid not to comply any quicker. That's all.


What's wrong with 3%?
By Spivonious on 2/27/2008 4:33:36 PM , Rating: 5
So if I make a product and it becomes wildly successful, is the EU going to fine me for collecting a small percentage of the profits of others using it? This all seems very anti-capitalism to me. Isn't the market supposed to dictate the price? If MS wants to charge 75% royalties, no company would ever license from them. The free market works!!




RE: What's wrong with 3%?
By FITCamaro on 2/27/2008 5:09:39 PM , Rating: 2
It's not even 3% anymore. Its a $14,900 flat fee + the option to license patents worldwide for .4% of revenues.


RE: What's wrong with 3%?
By Chudilo on 2/27/2008 5:36:42 PM , Rating: 2
So let's say after taking over more then 50% of the market share Mozilla started charging for creating plugins for Firefox. (it can't happen because it's open source and licence restrictions wouldn't allow it ) But theoretically, something that big of an app. Would it get sued by EU? No, because the program is the property of it's creator. And allowing integrating with it up to the owner.
Linux on the other hand is open source, So noone coudl prevent you or charge you for integrating with it.
This in my opinion the money that Microsoft was charged should be used as bounty money for people that duplicate the functionality on linux.
You want directX ..and you don't want to pay Microsoft for their API ... boo hoo ... use OpenGL it's just as good and it'll run everywhere. If there is something about OpenGL that you can't work with, make it better.. and share your changes with the rest of the world for the benefit of humanity.
People have already mentioned ubuntu. That is the only way to go if you don't like monopolies. If you haven't looked at ubuntu lately. it's time to take another look. things just work. if they dont' there is usually someone out there who automated getting whatever that is that is not working fixed.
I've been running it for over a year.
1. It's got the latest ATI/NVIDIA drivers.
2. It plays all audio/video formats(if you add the codecs, just like on windows), except playing more then one video simultaneously doesn't bring your PC to a hault, like on windows. And we all thought it was an x86 architechture problem.
3. It runs Firefox.
4. It works with Skype with video (if you have a standard webcam)
5. It runs everything that has a an OpenGL version. It also runs a lot of DirectX stuff (with the help of WINE) but that takes some fiddling around.
6. It's got GUIs for everything (ipods, cd burning, music video players)
7. It looks a hek of a lot better then Vista. (and it's very customizable)
I could go on and on.


RE: What's wrong with 3%?
By JoeBanana on 2/28/2008 3:10:37 AM , Rating: 2
I use it as my main OS. With main I mean only. Looks cool, feels cool, easy to use... I especially love the update tool. I hated in windows where every program asked for an update or did something in the background. Here if something is outdated the update manager appears(if it's on). Also love MPlayer, films just work with it. Just installed restricted package and Mplayer. Never installed a single codec since. Also Kopete messenger looks fantastic. Fortunately all games that I play work under ubuntu. Also I love apt GUI installer. The best think that came to us lazy people. Installing a program with two clicks. The only thing I am missing is a good native torrent manager.(currently I use utorrent)


RE: What's wrong with 3%?
By caqde on 2/28/2008 3:32:07 AM , Rating: 2
.. Well um the DirectX API is free to use. I can make and sell apps using DirectX any day I feel like.. The issue here dealt with the cost of using API's for cross platform business applications and the fact that they weren't well documented to begin with. Well I can't say much for their documentation to begin with.


RE: What's wrong with 3%?
By TALENT on 2/27/2008 5:54:47 PM , Rating: 2
EU does not like sucess. It makes them feel insecure and small.


fines like this!
By 4blueskies on 2/27/2008 4:26:20 PM , Rating: 2
For the author: how do they come up with the numeric amount for these fines? I would be very interested in that, more so in fact, then the actual final sum.

The fact that the dollar is capping out at 1.50 Euros makes the fine seem so large, I presume. But still! Seems like hi-way robbery, even if it is Microsoft.




RE: fines like this!
By PasiM on 2/27/2008 4:32:42 PM , Rating: 2
The whole point of fines in general and also in this case is to punish and guide the target's behaviour into right direction.

In case of Microsoft that is not possible unless the fines are huge.

Having not followed this issue in detail, I have, however, no idea whether the fines were justified or not.


RE: fines like this!
By BMFPitt on 2/27/2008 4:35:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
how do they come up with the numeric amount for these fines?
I'm thinking a projected 2008 budget shortfall of $1.4B. Rather than the American solution: tax our grandkids to make up for it, they like to sue Microsoft.


RE: fines like this!
By Apoxie on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: fines like this!
By Slappi on 2/28/2008 2:35:31 PM , Rating: 2
I am the one who wrote that in wikipedia. I wrote it after I drank a case of EU beer.


RE: fines like this!
By BrownJohn on 2/27/2008 5:06:42 PM , Rating: 3
i think you mean 1 Euro = ~1.5 Dollars


Europe vs. the Americas
By marsbound2024 on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By Apoxie on 2/27/2008 4:51:22 PM , Rating: 1
You know MS is only fined because they did not comply with the law. In EU you have to obey the law, even if you are a large corporation.


RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By Kef71 on 2/27/2008 4:55:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Come on United States, start fining the hell out of European companies. We need that money. Europe is essentially taking money from us, so let's take money from them.


Spoken like a true clueless patriotic American. What do you think the U.S. has been doing for the last 50 years?


RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By FITCamaro on 2/27/2008 4:59:01 PM , Rating: 4
Really?? Please enlighten us to what extreme monetary penalties the United States government has imposed on a EU based business.


RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By Ringold on 2/28/2008 2:45:31 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
What do you think the U.S. has been doing for the last 50 years?


Asides from a recent break, I've been under the impression that for most of that 50 years we were locked in a titanic struggle to keep what was left of Europe from being overrun and squeezed by Soviet infantry, tanks and nuclear weapons, extending our (very expensive) protective nuclear umbrella and blank-check of military support over the whole of Western Europe. In return, we've got.. hmm.. oh, thats right, a lot of complaining and a fair degree of hate.

Thats what I thought we've been doing for 50 years. Feel free to provide your alternative version of history. :P


RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 9:54:49 AM , Rating: 2
you really think, the us went into cold war to protect anything else than its own interests? really? ... what colour has the sky in your world?

jesus, read up on history (especially economic history if i dare suggest) ...


RE: Europe vs. the Americas
By nofranchise on 2/28/2008 3:08:39 AM , Rating: 1
It would be quite alright for the US to fine EU companies - if they did so because EU companies were BREAKING THE LAW!

Is that a concept too dificult to grasp? It should be familiar, with the 2 million inmates in the US.

They broke the law, and failed to comply with the ruling, which automatically releases a fine, one that they knew was being added on and they still didn't pay. The fine may seem large, but if it was a million dollars, MS would ignore it completely.


Run, Microsoft!
By 3kliksphilip on 2/27/2008 4:07:02 PM , Rating: 2
Poor Microsoft. Why are they still in there? Leave!

*Denies that England is in Europe*




RE: Run, Microsoft!
By TALENT on 2/27/2008 5:51:39 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly - maybe the EU will have to work for their money then. MS keep it up - don't give the EU anything.


RE: Run, Microsoft!
By Ringold on 2/28/2008 2:51:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
*Denies that England is in Europe*


Have they decided if they were going to live up to their word and put the Lisbon treaty before the people in a popular vote, or are they going to shove it down your throats in parliament because they know it'd fail a popular vote?

By the way, if you guys think your opt-outs will have durability in the face of time, you're all nuts. ;) The Confederate States of America thought their sovereign rights, including the ability to leave the union, could never be taken away. They were wrong.


EU Racket NEW MAFIA
By wolfpack1825 on 2/27/2008 5:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
I wish I had racket that gave me free money. EU is a smart organization. Let's see why not FINE everyone and we can build infrastructure, trains, planes Oh my. So you fine a company and the coffers get bigger. What a pathetic excuse of power.

All that is going to come of this is companies are going to steer away from EU countries and soon the choices will be limited. Way to go FREE enterprise. As always the people suffer.




RE: EU Racket NEW MAFIA
By brian26 on 2/27/2008 5:59:20 PM , Rating: 2
They are like a GIANT riaa. Power to do whatever they want. And dont tell me biased isnt playing a roll. If Microsoft were owned by Europe I bet your john brown hind parts that we wouldnt be hearing about this.


RE: EU Racket NEW MAFIA
By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 10:11:03 AM , Rating: 2
the eu fined a lot of companies for violationg market rules / abusing market power. most of them were european and the largest initial penalty hit siemens (which is european) at 751M €.

microsoft initially hat to pay under 500M but was dumb enough not to comply with the law and ignore the decision. fines tend to get higher when you choose to continue breaking the law, not only in europe but the us as well, so they endet up with what they have to pay now.


And if these fines are upheld...
By ajvitaly on 2/27/2008 6:57:02 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft will pass the costs onto consumers with it's next line of software products.

An alternative, windows compatible, operating system for PC's needs to emerge. Linux is not the answer.




RE: And if these fines are upheld...
By Fireshade on 2/28/2008 8:39:53 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, Linux is definitely an option. More and more governments are going to OpenSource.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 2/28/2008 9:22:14 AM , Rating: 2
Not the way you think. They are switching to an in house grown flavor of Linux, not Open Source per se. Governments and most companies prefer to keep their inner workings private. Source code for new apps and plugins will not be made public to the Open Source community. Linux != Open Source in all cases.

I've still not seen any competitive company adopt Linux on the desktop or Open Office (which I find to be a laughable attempt to compete with MS Office 97)


Public v. Private
By DRMichael on 2/27/2008 11:18:08 PM , Rating: 5
Reason number one for not going public: loss of control. If Microsoft was a private company, they could tell the world to shove it and simply close shop; putting all of their intellectual property in Bill’s attic.




hah
By Shadow Conception on 2/27/2008 4:06:29 PM , Rating: 2
Europe sure seems to love it some Microsoft.




RE: hah
By DASQ on 2/27/2008 4:16:14 PM , Rating: 2
It's free money. I'd like it too.


Why not fine other companies ?
By Bekali on 2/28/2008 12:07:37 AM , Rating: 2
If i want to buy a hardware or software product, on the package will almost certainly say that only 2000/XP/Vista are supported. In that way i am forced to use M$. Why is not Mandriva/Ubuntu/Red Hat ?
Indeed is stupid for developing an application/driver for Linux OS, because are few users, but why not some market rule that any product must work in at least one free OS (& 2-3 years time to comply) ?




By whirabomber on 2/29/2008 6:44:57 AM , Rating: 2
Linux's WINE can run a good many windows apps. Just google it.


The reality of it all
By Setsunayaki on 3/1/2008 1:39:58 PM , Rating: 2
The Europeans have always been more cutthroat than Americans. In fact we were the ones who became the first people in the History of the world to SUCCESSFULLY break free from European Control...and make our own colonies if you remember.

Look at European Business Markets...At one point REAL1Player was the top European Player software. Unfortunately MICROSOFT did something within their rights....They bundled their own MEDIA PLAYER in there which cut into the profits that europeans make..

This was what the whole media player fuss was about. Europeans who are sore about losing so they SUE.

Europeans tried to get OPERATING SYSTEM information and technical documents since the German Project to try to change government systems to LINUX actually failed miserably, costing that nation millions in maintainance fees....So they went after Microsoft...consider they have thrown in the towel..

Notice that the European Union is suing companies that started in the United States...They don't sue their own companies. Example:

France is known for its perfumes and cosmetics put on the human body. Analyzing carefuly those products, there are more harmful ingredients and chemicals in there in which ENGLISH toxicology reports include the loss of life. However you hardly hear about one Major European Computer Company Suing one another....

This is all about Authority.

The European Union Parliament is a group of unelected OFFICIALS. There was NO REAL TRIAL...It was an act. The reality was that they tested their authority and resolve by targetting a large scale corporationg to see if they could act or not.....

Also, I know that many of you have not stated this....but here is a very important observation.....

The Europeans are a people that except for the United States...when a European commits a crime in the US, they deal with FEDERAL COURT...Other nations actually FLY their citizens to EUROPE and they stand trial in EUROPE. In fact when a United States COMPANY sues a EUROPEAN COMPANY...THEY ALWAYS GO TO A EUROPEAN COURT TO SETTLE IT....When a EUROPEAN COMPANY SUES AN AMERICAN BASED COMPANY....THEY ALWAYS end up going to EUROPE.....

Im sorry, but European Union Nations can't have it both ways. Microsoft is weak and really let people down this time....I am not a MICROSOFT supporter by any means, but even I have read a lot of reports to this matter....(over 300 pages so far on all of this)...

If I was Microsoft's CEO.....I would have said "Sorry, but if you are suing us, you come to the United States and get tried by our laws....and if you don't like us...We will pull out completely out of Europe and in just a few weeks you will buy the OS from American stores....how is that for resolve?"

The EU already had their verdict before the hearings and trials started and simply are just trying to make money to push support the Euro and keep up with its rate of Inflation....In a few months, although the EURO is worth more than the dollar and the value of our dollar drops....the Euro and its price reflection towards gold, dropped in its own value by 15%...so that union has been up in arms trying to cover the loss by suing anyone with large enough money...

Its funny how this tech site doesnt cover past entanglements...Last time, as I recall a certain English and Finnish company had a problem with a certain "chinese" company...What did the Chinese do? They said "You don't make our laws" pulled their stock and redirected it to the United States...The Europeans actually tried to order them to remain in Europe......

So when it comes to cutthroat tactics, jealousy and corruption...All eyes point to Europe where the European Union Parliament....a bunch of aristocratic fools rule over Europe and have HIGHER AUTHORITY than any National Government existing in Europe.

Of course the United States has similar corruption in our politics thanks to Bush....so I see Europe and the US racing neck and neck for the prize of slimeball of the year.

I end this whole post with one very important quote

"Of the 100 most richest entities in the world, 51 of them are Corporations, 49 of them are nations"

Take care everyone and I apologize for the harshness and rudeness behind my words. People think microsoft losing is about "justice" but refuse to see that there is no justice when two bullies battle each other...The end is just one stronger bully that emerges.




RE: The reality of it all
By dustwalker13 on 3/3/2008 10:25:33 AM , Rating: 2
sorry but thats uninformed nonsense.

just one of your errors: it was american companies, that called to the eu for microsofts abuse of their de facto monopoly in the os-sector (they also called to the us-gov ... the case is still running)

read up on the facts and stop posting patriotic blabber


Who doesn't love free money?!
By TerranMagistrate on 2/27/2008 7:55:34 PM , Rating: 1
I dare you to say you don't.

But seriously, I'm usually very critical of Microsoft but I think I'll make an exception here: these money stealing EU socialist SCUM need to look for alternative sources of profit as opposed to sitting on their stupid asses and happily fining every freaking successful American company that conducts business there.

This just further proves the envy that those second-rate European governments have towards the U.S. Screw those clowns.




RE: Who doesn't love free money?!
By Sandok on 2/28/2008 6:17:48 PM , Rating: 2
European companies are fined... Chinese ones are fined... Everyone is fined if you don't follow the rules.

This isn't highschool or something where it's "cool" to break rules, this is the world of politics and corporations. Abide the rules.

And trust me, as a European who lived in the US (and the best state of them all, CT), there is nothing to envy. Socialism isn't bad (and that's not at all the predominant political vibe on this continent), we have less gun crime, less murders, faster cars, more luxury, more culture and more history so really, calm down already.

Redneck nationalists give the US a bad name. You need the world and if you think otherwise, then you've got to go back to college (if you ever went there).


Just a thought...
By Wightout on 2/27/2008 4:20:03 PM , Rating: 2
If they just stopped doing business within EU would this solve the problem?

Would be interesting to see though very much not likely to happen. =)




Aren't you forgetting?
By Orpheus333 on 2/27/2008 7:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
Corporations do not pay fines and they do not pay taxes- customers do. I sincerely hope that Europeans enjoy their higher software prices as they try to choke out capitalism to usher in their socialist utopia.

Furthermore, isn't it rigged in the EUs favor? They run the court they get the settlement... do you really think they are going to rule against a $1.4 billion payout? That is way to much money to an organization that desperately needs it.




well
By logaldinho on 2/28/2008 2:01:55 AM , Rating: 2
hahahaha good luck to all you people living in the EU when microsoft removes itself from the market there and forces you to pay high premiums to import.




What the F@#$ is that?
By Calin on 2/28/2008 3:32:16 AM , Rating: 2
"The EU allowed Microsoft to continue to operate in the region, but found it in violation of antitrust laws. Its conclusion -- in order to stay Microsoft will have to pay some big fines."

Your loved US government found Microsoft in violation of antitrust laws first, and the supervision of Microsoft is still ongoing.
And the EU did not decide Microsoft will have to pay big fines in order to stay - IT WILL NEED TO RESPECT THE LAW or suffer consequences (at this times, in the form of fines).

Who the hell put you in an editor position? Anandtech.com have a pretty decent style, I thought you guys would be the same




I wonder...
By sporr on 2/28/2008 12:30:28 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder what kind of reaction this would gain from the american public and courts if it was a large european corporation operating in the united states using similar business practices, ignoring the courts of the US completely when challenged about such practices.

A bit more EU hating I suppose :(




American Nationalism = pathetic
By Sandok on 2/28/2008 6:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
I'm just surprised by the comments here... Just for all you fanatics who sleep with a gun under your pillow, why can't you understand this simple notion:

If you break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

This is valid for the US, the EU and any other country in the world. Corporations like ENRON suffered under US law and corporations like Microsoft are suffering under EU law.

It's called justice and yes, justice means other countries / cultures / ideologies can force a people / companies to abide to THEIR rules.

And for all the idiots who think the US can be independent of the EU (and the rest of the world), take a crash course in Economics and study just how fragile the entire system is. The US needs the world as much as the world needs it.




Horrible!
By Cheapshot on 2/28/2008 8:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
We are a letting the EU push us around.

America should not be subject to these crafted so called laws.

If they do not like it then Ban the company, but keep the Made up BS laws to themselves.




Quoting Neelie Kroes here
By AsianIndian on 2/29/2008 11:34:41 AM , Rating: 2
It is peculiar to see so many nationalistic comments based solely on your fears, therefore I want to show you how logic works.

quote:
Much like in traffic, if you do not comply to traffic laws, you will be fined. If you fall into repeat, your previous offenses will be taken into account and your penalty will grow. The same goes for companies that break the rules, not only do we take into account the frequency of offenses but also the longevity of offenses.


That is what she says at the beginning of this video. She speaks English towards the end.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DHE2nVNjETU

These are completely in English, so no translation is required.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xqgG1ixpXbQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=arZgBFhMP5g




Just a slap on the wrist !
By Beenthere on 2/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just a slap on the wrist !
By wolfpack1825 on 2/28/2008 12:14:57 PM , Rating: 1
Your an IDIOT please move on


!@$$ the eu
By fuser197 on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: !@$$ the eu
By solidst8 on 2/27/2008 4:53:31 PM , Rating: 2
I can relate to how you feel. It certainly seems overkill and appears to target American companies. It will be interesting to see what sorts of fines unfold against Intel.


RE: !@$$ the eu
By brian26 on 2/27/2008 6:10:33 PM , Rating: 3
Not to mention youd think since Microsoft has done basically all it can do to re-organise liscence fees and what not that the Eu union would of let those fees drop. But nope, further proof they just want the money. Somebodys got to pay their salary I guess. Might as well be the Americans right.


RE: !@$$ the eu
By mWMA on 2/27/2008 7:35:28 PM , Rating: 2
Learn a little, all governments fine companies within their jurisdiction based on complaints from its citizens/corporation doing business within their boundaries. They don't just go look at bank balance to find which one to target.

Some governments just good a better job in limiting influence from corporation on government watchdogs, law-makers and law-enforcement.

No one complains when a US agency fines company within its boundary since most fines are small but everyone complains when one of US agency fails to stop fraud/market abuse/monopolistic behavior from occurring only to have stupid law makers place some new law with loop holes for future abuse.

EU or US it doesn't matter where Microsoft is fined, they were found guilty in both places, it just that one had a bigger fine/enforcement while latter is still watching them for another 2 years to make sure they obey laws with loop holes. Companies tend to start taking actions to bring themselves into compliance quickly when lots of $$$ are at stake.


RE: !@$$ the eu
By Fireshade on 2/28/2008 8:49:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It certainly seems overkill and appears to target American companies.

People seem to forget that this (server software) antitrust case was brought on by Novell, and joined by SUN Microsystems. Yes, American companies. Why not blame them? After all, they started it all.


RE: !@$$ the eu
By Om51 on 2/28/2008 12:01:44 AM , Rating: 1
Yep , I wish the MS money would burn them in the Hell ...


RE: !@$$ the eu
By Bekali on 2/28/2008 12:31:51 AM , Rating: 1
For acting like that, the EU penalty is castration. ;)


Good
By martinrichards23 on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By Wightout on 2/27/2008 4:27:07 PM , Rating: 5
I see this as the govt making Windows into more of a utility then a product.

If they are SO fed up with Windows (its prices, its services, and its products) go use Linux or OSX. There are other options out there.

Nerfing an industry does not make the marketplace better for consumers.


RE: Good
By erikejw on 2/27/2008 4:43:02 PM , Rating: 4
"Microsoft refused to comply "

Well, you said it yourself, comapnies have to obey local laws otherwise they are brought to court and fined. It goes for every company and for foreign companies in the US too.

They have apparently had 4 years to comply with the ruling but has not done anything about it.


RE: Good
By erikejw on 2/27/08, Rating: -1
RE: Good
By omnicronx on 2/27/2008 7:03:09 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The blogger seems to indicate that it is standard procedure in the EU to fine US companies, well, that is a lie.
You are kidding yourself if you do not think the European union is taking advantage of the situation. I never hear anything in the news about any big European business's getting slammed with fines. And please do not tell me everyone else is perfect and Microsoft is the devil, because this is just not the case. The EU union is protecting itself and nothing more. Best part is in the end, all their laws do is open up their own markets for even more competitors, which although keeps the market open, it also essentially limits the potential and size that a company can grow to in europe.

It's a double edged sword that will probably in the end effecting Europe more than anyone else. Oh well, more tech companies for Microsoft and Intel to chew on.


RE: Good
By michael67 on 2/28/2008 1:01:21 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
You are kidding yourself if you do not think the European union is taking advantage of the situation. I never hear anything in the news about any big European business's getting slammed with fines.

Realy, it dose not look to me like the EU is soft on EU companies.

Dutch brewer Heineken got fined for EUR219.3m ($330m) for anti competitive behavior in Holland only (population 17m)
But they are not so stupid not to comply whit the ruling, otherwise they would be fined the same way as MS.
http://www.just-drinks.com/article.aspx?id=93048&l...

So saying EU is only harsh on US companies is just not true

quote:
So if I make a product and it becomes wildly successful, is the EU going to fine me for collecting a small percentage of the profits of others using it?

No that would not happen because your not the marked monopolist.
If you are the monopolist in a market the rules change for you because your the biggest and you can push out anyone you want and charge them what ever you feel like.
Take it ore leave it i am the biggest attitude

quote:
This all seems very anti-capitalism to me. Isn't the market supposed to dictate the price? If MS wants to charge 75% royalties, no company would ever license from them. The free market works!!

Europeans have noting against capitalism, they do have a problem that is, if you pushing/bulling out small companies that trying to make a start.

Was-sent that the "American dream" start your company out of your garage by having a better idea then others.

What if your 3 student and got a brilliant idea to make a antivirus program
But you cant build it because you don't have access to the inner workings of how windows works.
And remember the license fee was original 5.95% over the resale price over a product that enhances windows
That's about the same as you would make your self after development/production/distribution/transport cost

If you look for example to autoCAD there are all the protocols open to design plug-ins because there is a lot of competition.
I am pretty sure windows would be also more open if there was more competition from Linux. (but there isn't)

Back to the height of the fine, MS got themselves to tank for the height of it.

After complaint of some companies EU and! US the EU did some looking in to the mater

1. The EU went to MS and told them you have to open up and document your protocols so others can make programs that work properly whit windows
MS sad screw you EU!

2. The EU started a lawsuit against MS to make them complain what they lost.......
MS did still noting

3. MS when to court appeal the ruling.
But instead of making all the documents ready to complain whit the ruling, and asking the judge to keep them secret till after the ruling of the appeal, they did noting!

4. After the judge ruled in favor of the EU, MS payed the fine.
MS started to drag his feet, and did to little and a to expensive proposal for competition, and did not what the EU LAW was saying what it should do!

5. The EU after the release the documents told MS your still not complying whit EU law
MS saying we do comply what your asking

6. after a new investigation EU told MS you got x days to comply ore we fine you again
MS sad basically up yours again we take you to court because we complying
MS appealed again in court, and lost again

7. Now the EU had it whit MS and told them if you don't comply whit EU law you got to pay $3.83M a day, for each day of non-compliance.
It still taken MS over a year to comply for something they bin told to do 2 years before that.

Is it the EU fault that MS was taking over a other year to comply over a 2 year old ruling?
They new what the fine was for eats day.

quote:
Microsoft is the only company in 50 years that gets fined due to they refuse to comply with a ruling.

ps, Microsoft is the only company in 50 years that refused to comply with a ruling.

And saying that the judges ware bias against a US company is just silly.
That would be the same as saying US Supreme court would be bias against a EU company, and not following the letter of the law.
.

And also say that the anti competitive behavior is not a bad thing is just silly.

some examples:
ICQ was a growing company and pioneer in the IM market, till MS started to bundle MSN whit XP
ICQ had developed even a corporate version of ICQ that never got released because MS pushed them out of the marked
How is still using ICQ?

Netscape had the same fate.
And MS stopped development of IE6 after they had 95% market share.
If Firefox hadn't come along we would still be using IE6

JAVA should have bin platform independent.
But hey MS was saying we cant have that we make ore own Microsoft Java Virtual Machine that works almost the same so there is a small learning curve for JAVA programmers but it wont work on Linux, Solaris ore what ever.

WMP killed basically all real computation for 3th party media-players

ect. ect.

And yes Europeans are not Americans your way of life is not ours, ware happy whit the way Europe's social system works even do i have to pay 40% tax 6% added tax over food and other first needs and a other whooping 20% over TVs ect.
And paying 1.52 euro ($2.25) the liter for petrol.

If i get in a accident ore sick i now for sure i don't have to sell my house to pay the bill

Yeah Europe isn't perfect but believe me so isn't the US and i have bin living in the US (Texas) for 40~50% of the time for the last 10 years (work in the offshore)

Talk to friends ore people you now that have lived ore studied over here in Europe and ask them what "they think" of Europe, you will find out that things are a lot different then you think.


RE: Good
By Ringold on 2/28/2008 2:19:17 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Talk to friends ore people you now that have lived ore studied over here in Europe and ask them what "they think" of Europe, you will find out that things are a lot different then you think.


I have. The liberals among them think they've visited heaven and touched the face of god. The conservatives were disgusted, and sad that a continent with such a rich history could have sunk so low. Thats mainland Europe; less intense responses to the UK and Ireland. I don't know anybody that hasn't enjoyed a trip to Ireland.

quote:
Europeans have noting against capitalism


Then why no progress on the Doha trade talks? Why the protected agriculture markets? Why the resistance to GM food? Why some of the most rigid labor markets on Earth? Why does Bahrain rank as having more economic freedom than Germany? Why does Kazakhstan (!!!!!!) have a more free economy then Greece?

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/co...

I'm not sure you know what all it entails; going after the occasional "monopolist" (which apparently is defined by market share alone since most other measures fail) is not capitalism. It's simply good politics.


RE: Good
By michael67 on 2/29/2008 5:38:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have. The liberals among them think they've visited heaven and touched the face of god. The conservatives were disgusted, and sad that a continent with such a rich history could have sunk so low. Thats mainland Europe; less intense responses to the UK and Ireland. I don't know anybody that hasn't enjoyed a trip to Ireland.

Man. a lot of you Americans think black and white, and not even consider that the truth could be somewhere in the middle.
Europe hasn't the got the perfect system, there is plenty of problems over here to, but i still like it over here.
And i had plenty of US job offers ware i could make more money then i do now, but still prevere to live in Europe.

I live in one of the riches countries in the world, Norway (one of 3 countries in the world that got no debt) and we also are not a part of the EU, properly never going to be, but we follow 95% of EU law.
Why because most EU laws protect consumers, and not just big business.

I like to have things like a 2 year warranty on my products, I like labour laws that protect workers from being exploited, and state guaranteed pensions even if my company ore pension funds go belly up.

quote:
Then why no progress on the Doha trade talks?

hehe it was not the EU that couldn't agree but Brazil and India

quote:
Why the protected agriculture markets?

Because the EU doesn't wane be depended of other countries for food.
But i agree and whit me around 50% of Europeans that subsidisation got to be lowered. (its a hot issue in the EU)

quote:
Why the resistance to GM food?

We/I don't trust them, got noting to do that its coming from the US i just like my food to be natural so do most other Europeans,

quote:
Why some of the most rigid labor markets on Earth? Why does Bahrain rank as having more economic freedom than Germany? Why does Kazakhstan (!!!!!!) have a more free economy then Greece?

If that freedom means this
1. the US ranks 42nd in the world as far as life expectancy.
2. A third to half of all citizens lack even basic health care.
3. Roughly 13% of citizens live below the poverty line.

then you can keep you pure capitalism, i like mine whit a bit of socialism

quote:
I'm not sure you know what all it entails; going after the occasional "monopolist" (which apparently is defined by market share alone since most other measures fail) is not capitalism. It's simply good politics.

You haven't bin reading point 1~7 ?
They don't just go after a big company to fine the a ridiculous a mount of money, they first talk and after not listening for a long time the fine getting higher and higher.
Just like when you don't pay your speeding ticket if you don't pay the price go's up
And it had to go up this high before Microsoft did what it had to by EU law.

And the same as in the US states EU countries have local law that they enforce,
It works basically the same, EU go's after the big fish countries go after local smaller fish that isn't doing what they should do.


RE: Good
By sporr on 2/28/2008 12:17:14 PM , Rating: 2
Im glad someone took to the time to tell it like it is.


RE: Good
By Metroid on 2/27/2008 4:28:06 PM , Rating: 2
As a programmer I do understand you and totally agree. The only thing I ask myself is when all this is going to stop by.

Metroid.


RE: Good
By Spivonious on 2/27/2008 4:28:32 PM , Rating: 3
As a software developer, you should appreciate that you don't have to learn 15 different APIs to port your application to the 15 different OSes that would exist if MS didn't have a controlling marketshare.

Similarly, imagine if instead of Intel standardizing the processor market on x86 there were 25 different assembly languages. 25 different compilers anyone?

Are MS and Intel being anticompetitive by having large marketshare? Perhaps but where would we be without these standards? There is no way computing would have progressed so quickly as it has in the past 25 years if the industry didn't choose a leader.

If OSes weren't slow and bloated, you'd still be running on a 386 16Mhz that cost $2000. You also wouldn't be playing any music files, surfing the Internet, or playing 3D games. To gain speed you have to sacrifice features.

Are you really a developer? I highly doubt you've worked in the real world.


RE: Good
By Martimus on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By Spivonious on 2/27/2008 4:59:30 PM , Rating: 5
None of the standards you listed are "open".

The SATA standard was created by an organization with an annual $1500 membership fee. If you're not a member, you can't make something using their technology.

Video cards use operating systems to display images. With Windows it's either DirectX or GDI, both licensed from Microsoft. If you were referring to something like the PCI Express bus, that's owned by the PCI-SIG which has a $3000 annual membership fee.

Windows has its own API, whose documentation has been freely available on the MSDN for at least 8 years. Yep, that's really stifling the small guy. If I wanted to start a software company, I'd first have to buy a copy of Visual Studio, currently going for around $500 IIRC. All that's needed then is an idea and marketing skills. Think you have the next best media player? Then make it and quit whining about how MS has their own and choose to bundle it with the OS. If your player truly is better, and people learn about it, people will start to use it. Look at Firefox.

I could go on, but I'm tired of trying to convince people of how MS is not "evil".

And I doubt the OP is a developer because MS currently has the best development software out there.


RE: Good
By FITCamaro on 2/27/2008 5:06:54 PM , Rating: 2
Well said.


RE: Good
By DonPMitchell on 2/27/2008 5:27:03 PM , Rating: 2
A refreshingly informed comment.

Open formats maybe be good, but consider the Open Document Format. Microsoft spent enormous resources over many years developing and testing its office features and formats. This included costly usability studies with customers. What incentive is there for that kind of R&D when the formats and features can be reverse engineered to produce something like ODF and OpenOffice?


RE: Good
By Martimus on 2/28/2008 2:58:34 PM , Rating: 2
Because your product works better than the competition. Plus, unless you have enough marketshare, you wouldn't want to create your own format for documentation, since it wouldn't be compatible with more popular word processors.


RE: Good
By smitty3268 on 2/27/2008 7:12:17 PM , Rating: 3
The Java, Mono, and Qt communities prove that you can have a cross platform api that largely works. There are certainly drawbacks to using those frameworks on multiple platforms, but if a company really wanted to make them perfect and standardize support for them it would be pretty simple. It's no different than web browsers, which each have their own unique features and abilities, but also make sure to implement a common standard.

Also, are you sure there aren't 25 different compilers and assembly languages to learn? It seems like gcc has at least 15 different backends. Some of those might be 32 vs 64 bit though. That's something that is largely invisible to the developer, as the compiler should just automatically take care of it in most cases except where you're specifically writing assembly code manually.

That said, MS is largely friendly to developers. That attitude comes from their past when they were actively competing against other OS's and they correctly decided that people would end up buying whatever had the best apps on it, so encouraging developers to pick Windows was one of their priorities.


RE: Good
By Martimus on 2/28/2008 3:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. All of those standards are not internal proprietary standards that only Intel, or IBM, or whoever can use. They can actually be licensed.

It is nice to see that you believe that Microsoft makes the best development software, but that is just an opinion. I seem to remember their packages to be subpar when I used to code, but they may have bought out the competition, or have gotten better since then.

I don't know who is claiming that Microsoft is "evil", but to attack a plea for competition just seems strange to me. It is easier for developers since there is only one major OS maker, but that doesn't help advance the medium, and it sure as hell doesn't help add variety to your options. I mean honestly, maybe you really like the Toyota Corolla, but if that were the only midsize car available how would you even know if you wouldn't want something different?


RE: Good
By guy007 on 2/27/08, Rating: 0
RE: Good
By Janooo on 2/27/2008 5:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
Well, if there were 15 different APIs there would be higher demand for us developers and we would make more money.
What a pity. :-)


RE: Good
By GreenyMP on 2/27/2008 6:16:49 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
As a software developer, you should appreciate that you don't have to learn 15 different APIs to port your application to the 15 different OSes that would exist if MS didn't have a controlling marketshare.


Java. Write once. Run anywhere. No need to port. And in the case of games a cross platform standard using something like OpenGL would have emerged.

quote:
Similarly, imagine if instead of Intel standardizing the processor market on x86 there were 25 different assembly languages. 25 different compilers anyone?


One processor manufacturer cannot "standardize" on anything. It takes at least two to make something a standard.

quote:
Are MS and Intel being anticompetitive by having large market share?


Nobody is blaming Microsoft or Intel of that. They are being sued for anticompetitive practices (that means using their market share to stifle competition).

quote:
If OSes weren't slow and bloated, you'd still be running on a 386 16Mhz that cost $2000


Games and enterprise applications always pushed hardware more than the OS. Until the capitulation to DirectX, OpenGL games pushed the hardware just as hard as the rest.

quote:
Are you really a developer? I highly doubt you've worked in the real world.


Just because someone doesn't write the kind of applications that you write, doesn't mean they are not a developer. You sound like a hate monger. People would have still innovated without Microsoft and Intel. We would likely have the same problems, just different companies to blame it on.


RE: Good
By omnicronx on 2/27/2008 7:37:58 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Java. Write once. Run anywhere
In theory, or if you are running a 'hello world' program then yes you are right! Unfortunately as every Java dev knows, this is not the case. I can't say i have ever got a complex java program to run cross platform (even 2k to xp to vista) to run correctly on all platforms. Java is also slow compared to other OO languages available out there. Don't get me wrong, I am currently using java for a project, but its not the AMAZING DO IT ALL LANGUAGE you make it out to be.

quote:
One processor manufacturer cannot "standardize" on anything. It takes at least two to make something a standard.
Technicaly yes, but he was on the right track, and this comment means pretty much nothing in terms of his statement. Intel created x86 and was using it long before they were forced by IBM to have two manufacturers. If intel was the only chip manufacturer x86 would be the standard, regardless if Intel is the only chip manufacture.

quote:
Nobody is blaming Microsoft or Intel of that. They are being sued for anticompetitive practices (that means using their market share to stifle competition).

What competition? (in ms's case at least). Microsoft obviously broke the rules, but it also seems like the EU is taking advantage. Decisions like this are not going to hasten the development of a competing windows OS. They are only poking the bear, how long before the only version of windows available in the EU is a stripped down featureless version of windows, without internet explorer of course ;) Funny because business's will still eat it up, as linux although great in my books has no place in the corporate desktop environment. (too many distros, too many inconsistencies.)

quote:
Games and enterprise applications always pushed hardware more than the OS. Until the capitulation to DirectX, OpenGL games pushed the hardware just as hard as the rest.
Games push technology into the market, its not until these technologies reach the business sector that they become implemented on a mass scale. So although games do give progress an extra push, they are by no means the main or only reason that technology has advanced. If you don't believe me, just look at slowing advancements in computer technology compared to 5-10 years ago. We have reached the point where just about any computer can do all of your every day needs. For the majority of the population pushing newer hardware has become less and less of a priority. And here we are, the days of efficiency and form factor, over power. Where we will go next is anyones guess.

quote:
People would have still innovated without Microsoft and Intel. We would likely have the same problems, just different companies to blame it on.
Thats a bold statement, unless your name is Doc Brown, your statement is no more accurate than me saying had the big bang happened a billion years later, everything would have developed the same.


RE: Good
By djcameron on 2/27/2008 11:02:49 PM , Rating: 3
Ha! More like... Java. Write once, debug everywhere.


RE: Good
By aju on 2/27/2008 4:49:02 PM , Rating: 5
We do its called Steve Job's universe. There you can charge $1000 for a $100 stick of RAM. If anyone comments about it you just sensor them.
There’s a Monopoly for you. Apple controls everything that is used in their PCs and all software that runs on it or any other product they make. At least Microsoft does not dictate what CPU or video card I use when I build a PC. I can even run a Microsoft competitor OS natively on my PC. I don’t have to use some virtualization tool. Try that with an Apple without breaking your warrantee.


RE: Good
By BrownJohn on 2/27/2008 5:03:30 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, I believe you can run other operating systems on Macs natively, including Windows.


RE: Good
By Wightout on 2/27/2008 5:30:04 PM , Rating: 3
You know you can buy ram outside of apple right?

They like to mark it up same a alienware does.

Buy the cheepest option and upgrade yourself...?


RE: Good
By nofranchise on 2/28/2008 3:29:12 AM , Rating: 3
It is incredible how much fear and hatred the general American exudes these days. Relax for Christ sake.

Accept that other countries have other laws and regulations, and that you can't just scream and spit and curse, and everybody will comply - and then draw out the club if they don't.

quote:
Why you little!!!


Humans are supposed to be the HIGHER form of intelligence.

Do you really think that the EU is out to get the innocent Microsoft - and mostly because it is a US based company? Then your government and you media's fearmongering tactics really are starting to work - and the world will be a much darker place.

Take a walk and breathe - we are not all out to get you.


RE: Good
By JAB on 2/28/2008 12:10:52 PM , Rating: 2
This is the new checks and balance system. Now that congress and the oval office is not worth the ink on their rubber stamps- there will be someone to point out the dead bodies in the cellar. You cant own all the police! Some day the corruption will end just dont be in any hurry.

Dont worry we will be slamming on there bad business practices too.


RE: Good
By brian26 on 2/28/2008 12:13:48 PM , Rating: 2
Yeh I do think that EU union is out to get them. Microsoft is in a unique position. They are on top and so automatically it makes people envious. Punishing them for being on top is the part that pisses me off. They have done everything to help those poor Euro developers other than write the freaking code for them. They have had an online library of code and help for devlopers for years and years. If there was another OS even remotely close to being useable by 97% of the world and microsoft did something to that company then it would be different. They havent. As stated earlier when Microsoft asked them on what they needed to do to comply with the law they stated "we dont know" yet we will fine you if you dont comply. Now the EU is on the back of intel.. big shocker there. Their market share has increased dramtically this year.. couldnt be anything to do with them puting out a better product could it ? no of course not they must of been anti competative... time to fine them.. do you not see how stupid this is.


RE: Good
By Hexus on 2/28/2008 12:28:59 PM , Rating: 2
I compleatly and utterly agree with you, the EU has to be out to get money, I mean isn't the person administering you a fine suppose to tell you how to fix it? How to you fine someone if you don't 100% understand what they've done? I mean it's stuff like this that's going to slow the rate of technological advancment.


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