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The European Union could fine Microsoft up to $4 million USD per day for non-compliance with antitrust rulings

It looks like the European Union (EU) is after Microsoft yet again. In 2004, the EU Commission fined Microsoft $634 million USD for its monopolistic business practices. In July of 2006, the EU once again fined Microsoft to the tune of $375.4 million USD for failing to comply with antitrust rulings. The EU also took Microsoft to task over the security features in Windows Vista citing a threat to competition in the marketplace.

Today, we learn that the EU is looking to fine Microsoft $4 million USD per day for not providing affordable tools to help its competitors develop compatible software for Windows-based operating systems.

"This is a company which apparently does not like to have to conform with antitrust decisions," said Jonathan Todd, a spokesman for the EU Commission. "In the 50 years of European antitrust policy, it is the first time we have been confronted by a company which has failed to comply with an antitrust decision... We are in unknown territory. We don't want to be in a situation where ten years after an antitrust decision, they still are not in compliance."

Microsoft has been given four weeks to respond to the EU's demands or face the daily fine. The EU contends that Microsoft's has shown no basis for the pricing of its patented communication protocols (i.e. Base Authentication and Authorization, Domain Services Interaction, Print RPC, etc.), thus it has formally rejected over 1,500 pages of pricing proposals put forth by the Redmond, WA-based company.

"Microsoft has agreed that the main basis for pricing should be whether its protocols are innovative," said EU Commissioner Neelie Kroes. "The Commission's current view is that there is no significant innovation in these protocols. I am therefore again obliged to take formal measures to ensure that Microsoft complies with its obligations."

Microsoft, as expected, was quick to respond to the latest round of requests from the EU. "It is hard to see how the Commission can argue that even patented innovation must be made available for free," said Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith. Microsoft has offered access its IP for a price that is 30% below the current market rate, but the EU thinks that Microsoft's price should be closer to $0.

"No companies have signed up for Microsoft's [proposals] because it is too expensive," said Todd.

Microsoft has reiterated that it has done everything in its power to comply with past EU rulings. "[Microsoft] has spent three years and many millions of dollars to comply with the European Commission's decision. We submitted a pricing proposal to the Commission last August and have been asking for feedback on it since that time," said Smith.

You can read the EU’s formal complaint here, while a FAQ on the decision can be accessed here. Microsoft has also made available a table (PDF) of proposed pricing for its IP.



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The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 1:59:31 PM , Rating: 3
seriously the EU is so anti-capitalistic it's sick... no wonder why you guys get everything so far behind the rest of the world... serves you right... SOny, MS, and Intel should just stop selling to you people all together.




RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By dever on 3/1/2007 2:38:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
way too capitalistic?
Yes, we love our freedom.
quote:
Live free or die!


RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/2007 3:00:52 PM , Rating: 2
As do we. What I don't understand is why protecting the total freedom of multi-billion dollar companies is so important to so many of you?

To me it's quite obvious that Microsoft is using their monopoly status to prevent competition. They are doing this by developing proprietary protocols, and then either refusing to license them, or licensing them at unreasonable (unrealistic) costs.

This is what the EU is trying to correct. They want more competition, and to achieve that they need to force Microsoft to open up their patent portfolio. How does that hurt your freedom, or anything else for that matter? I genuinely don't understand what the fuss is about.


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 3:17:37 PM , Rating: 3
no one forces anybody to use MS products... thats the point.... if you want open and free and non-proprietary OS then use Linux... lots of people like it and say its better than MS anyway (are they wrong?)... so let EU stay out of the way and let the people decide... or are you guys too dumb to decide for yourself?


RE: The EU is retarded
By Vinnybcfc on 3/1/2007 3:26:27 PM , Rating: 4
Jumping to Linux would be like shooting yourself in the foot for most people and businesses

Some businesses are stuck with Windows only software

And how many games are on Linux?

If there was a proper competitor OS that could run Windows binaries then Windows would be half the price


RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/1/2007 3:55:11 PM , Rating: 3
Binary compatibility has nothing to do with being a viable OS in the market. As has been pointed out endlessly by Linux and OS X advocates, most every type of commonly-used Windows application has equivalents in those operating systems. It just happens to be more efficient to use Windows since that's where the critical mass is. But it doesn't mean that other alternatives are not viable.


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/2007 3:30:16 PM , Rating: 1
That's precisely the point.

Many people want to use server software (A market Microsoft previously was a small player in) from other vendors, but to be able to interoperate with Windows desktops, these vendors need to be able to license the protocols used in Windows to add support to their products. This has traditionally been very difficult (impossible) and expensive, leading to a situation where only Microsoft server software works correctly together with Windows desktops. Thus the EU argues that Microsoft has been using their desktop software monopoly to muscle their way into the server software market.

That is what this whole thing is about, and what the EU is trying to fix.


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 3:34:42 PM , Rating: 5
hello!!! MS signed the deal with Novell to NEVER sue an end user (of a Novell Distro since Novell signed the deal) who uses MS IP for integration... the reason for that deal was to allow Novell to allow for a more integrated enterprise protected from MS lawyers... MS gave the people a gurantee not to sue for this very purpose (enterprise interoperabiltiy)... so tell me again why EU needs to step in here???

What sad is the linux community's response after MS did this how much crap they gave MS.....


RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By Trisped on 3/1/2007 6:12:32 PM , Rating: 5
You sound new to the computer scene, so I will introduce you to a concept that made home computers what they are today. It is "Backwards engineering." Basically you take a product, figure out what it does, figure out how to do the same thing, and make one your self. This is where PCs or "IBM compatibles" came from.

While I don't recognize a few of your standards, I do know that there is no reason to reverse-engineer .NET as it is just a common library that pretty much anything can access and use. If you want to use it, then do. If you don't want to, then make your own library. The main reason people seem to want to reverse-engineer .NET is so they can port it to OS X and Linux, which is not at all related to the news post or the content of these forms.

As for the other MS protocols, you don't have to use them if you want to make something else. You can cut all the IP specific network protocols and stick to the basic interfaces. You can even develop your own protocols to use in place of the ones you lose. The problem with that is it costs a lot of money to create the protocols and implement them, and there are major issues with bugs and compatibility.

My problem with the EU decision is that they seem to see the work MS has done and want their citizens to have free access to it. Personally this makes me mad because if someone was to take something I had spent a lot of time and money on I would call it stealing and here are a few EU people doing just that. Maybe I am wrong, so I will not issue a final judgment, but that is what it sounds like to me and that is the way I am going to continue to see it.


RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:59:47 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The EU wants, and has somewhat succeded, to make it easier for competiors to license IP and get actual specifications from Microsoft.


Denial of private property provides no party with new incentive to compete.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 5:23:24 PM , Rating: 3
you did not just link to slashdot as a support to an argument did you?? ROFLMAO.... that a good source of unbiased conjecture for sure.... lol

MS extorted money?? They paid Novell ~ $334 million and got 40 million back in the deal... hardly extortion...

"The financial commitments Microsoft is making as part of this agreement are significant," said Ron Hovsepian, president and CEO of Novell. "This will help drive Linux more rapidly into the enterprise and government arenas, broadly expanding opportunities for Linux and open source. This is good for Novell, but it's also good for the community because it will make Linux and open source much more prevalent and drive demand for Linux-based solutions."

"Novell entered this broad set of agreements with Microsoft to further promote the adoption of Linux," said Joseph A. LaSala, Jr., senior vice president and general counsel for Novell. "Many people want to know whether this agreement is compatible with Novell's obligations under the GPL, especially section 7. This was an important consideration for us as well. Under the patent cooperation agreement, Novell's customers receive directly from Microsoft a covenant not to sue."

from: http://www.linuxelectrons.com/News/Linux/Novell_Ou...


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 6:05:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What is really happening is analogous to the mafia asking for protection money.


False, in a protection racket it is the protector who performs a wrongful act when paymentis not delivered. In this case, it is the payer who performed a wrongful act. Did so before payment was even demanded.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/5/2007 3:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
When has this been proven? They have done nothing but suggest their IP has been violated.

http://www.showusthecode.com


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:53:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That is what this whole thing is about, and what the EU is trying to fix.


Assuming you statement is true; the EU intra-government lacks the tools to accomplish the task. They will fail.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By Tamale on 3/1/2007 4:45:43 PM , Rating: 5
I'll never understand why it's a failure of a 'free market' for a company to provide a substantially well-made product line-up that spans many different markets. To me that's simply a great company strategy....


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 4:39:53 PM , Rating: 4
As of yet, the EU has not cited even one barrier to entry.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/6/2007 11:18:04 AM , Rating: 2
The EU has cited a slew of "non-innovative" patents regarding interoperability protocols as the barrier to entry. These patents are ammunition for lawyers looking to prevent competition with MS.
The EU demanded that MS make information on these protocols available, and MS has not surprisingly resisted, which is the point of the fines.
It's all pretty cut and dry if you ask me.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Jack Ripoff on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/1/2007 5:40:14 PM , Rating: 5
Sorry, that's wrong - Microsoft never forced anyone to buy anything, ever. We have always had a choice, and the fact of the matter is that almost all of us chose Windows.

EU fighting for freedom - oh, please. It's entirely a political situation. EU has a poor record of protecting consumers from Microsoft, e.g., the 'n' versions that EU forced Microsoft to produce, that EU consumers entirely rejected.

Bottom line: If Microsoft was headquartered in Paris instead of Redmond, we wouldn't be having this debate.


RE: The EU is retarded
By warhaven on 3/1/2007 6:06:10 PM , Rating: 3
If Microsoft's headquarters were based in Paris, the USA would probably increase the import taxes by 100% if they think it's unfair business.

Remember sock imports from China...
And only because China as a whole has a magnificant business tactic.

Damn...that doesn't count does it? =P


RE: The EU is retarded
By Jack Ripoff on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/1/2007 7:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, Microsoft's record is pretty clear - clear that they never forced anybody to buy anything.

Not being familiar with the so-called Halloween Documents, I read up on them, and I don't see any evidence there either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents


RE: The EU is retarded
By Jack Ripoff on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By TravisO on 3/3/2007 11:21:36 AM , Rating: 3
>> my Internet Banking software requires MSJVM

Are you sure about that, MS discontinued their JVM years ago, in fact most/all of the service packs out now for Windows actually remove their JVM from the system.

If you're bank really requires the MSJVM, which they can't even legally distribute iirc, then they are 5yrs in the past and too lazy to make sure it runs in Sun's JVM. So I think you're blaming the wrong company this time.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Jack Ripoff on 3/8/2007 1:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
I'm serious, they really require it. But that's not the point, the point is how they hijacked Java and software written for MSJVM doesn't run on any other Java implementation (and, therefore, only on Windows). The bank won't rewrite the software and loose their investment just because it runs only on Windows, after all most users run Windows anyway...

This is called market lock-in.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 8:27:50 PM , Rating: 2
Typical European excuse regarding Microsoft; being 'forced' to do something.

Look, slave, I've tried at least 8 Linux distro's over the past three or four years, and found some to fit some niche purpose, I'll admit that. Gentoo, for example, when I feel my geek e-peen is small and wish to compile my way to a larger e-peen.

I even, despite not caring enough to ever become too great at the command line, managed to get Gentoo to do with a fair amount of speed most of what I wanted it to do.

When I recently upgraded one computer, and now have parts inbound from NewEgg for a new one, I took my American brain to task and did simple analysis of my needs and my choices. After doing so, I promptly ordered two OEM copies of Vista Home Premium x64. I've been using it on the upgraded one for all of Feb and to hear the EU whine you'd think nothing was compatible but there's an amazing amount of freeware stuff that was somehow developed for it that works great. Odd.

See that part about using your brain, analyzing your needs and the products available, and making an independent choice? No Microsoft rep will come by your house and force you at gun point to purchase Vista, trust me.

It's not even as if Microsoft is the only monopolistic power in European markets, either. Europe is AWASH in monopolists. Microsoft just happens to be American. Funny, that is.

But, well, the EU Commission needs funding from somewhere I suppose.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/2/2007 11:58:03 AM , Rating: 1
Freeware that runs on Vista somehow contradicts the idea that MS is being monopolistic?

You don't understand at all what the EU's complaint is, apparently, but hey, you're entitled to your uninformed opinion.

You shouldn't talk as if you represent the US though.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 4:45:44 PM , Rating: 4
What the EU is doing is contrary to the very concept of freedom.

That being said, Microsoft chooses, freely, to conduct business in Europe. A consequence of seeking profits in that market is compliance with their law...even when that law is intellectually bankrupt. I applaud the EU for forcing hard their hand in a society based upon the rule of law.


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/6/2007 11:37:01 AM , Rating: 2
Actually,
intellectual property is contrary to the very concept of freedom, but its helpful it for obvious reasons.

Since we chose to allow and enforce protections of intellectual property, we also need to be careful that the system isn't abused. Companies in the US happily abuse patent law, but in Microsofts case, they have met resistance in the EU.

The EU is trying to level the playing field by allowing everyone who isn't MS to freely write software that can exist alongside MS products.


RE: The EU is retarded
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 6:59:42 AM , Rating: 2
r u kidding me? MS is all over the world so persuative in a way of its policies that u cannot even talk about either being forced or making decision...

once and for all, don't loose your temper with this, it's just the way it should be...

and always remember that EU does all of this scarcely aware of US citizens, but very well aware of Microsoft's present economical situation...

at last, almost all people of US population root in Europe... interesting fact, ain't it?


RE: The EU is retarded
By rcc on 3/2/2007 2:29:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
at last, almost all people of US population root in Europe... interesting fact, ain't it?


Don't know if this is still true or not. But certainly during the founding of the country. Something a lot of us are still proud of. But, you have to remember why that is. For the most part it was people trying to escape the confines and constrictions of life in the European countries.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 4:55:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
at last, almost all people of US population root in Europe... interesting fact, ain't it?


Yes, Euczechguy, American's fled Europe, because its governments were tyrannical.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Moishe on 3/2/2007 8:08:46 AM , Rating: 2
Personally, I like the money that huge eviiil companies inject into the economy. Microsoft employs thousands and pays very well.

But that's just me. the EU is obviously trying hard to find anything wrong with Microsoft.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:41:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As do we. What I don't understand is why protecting the total freedom of multi-billion dollar companies is so important to so many of you?


You second sentence contradicts the first.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:49:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They want more competition, and to achieve that they need to force Microsoft to open up their patent portfolio. How does that hurt your freedom, or anything else for that matter? I genuinely don't understand what the fuss is about.


Coersion to abandon private property does not create competition, it reduces it. If the EU genuinely wanted more competition they would be attending to every viable entity except Microsoft.

It has been nearly 150 years since the analogy was used, but it necessitates repeating. "Tying a weight to the fastest runner will never decrease the time it takes a slower runner to finish a race."


RE: The EU is retarded
By miekedmr on 3/6/2007 11:45:34 AM , Rating: 2
That analogy doesn't work.
MS will not be slowed down by allowing other people past their non-innovative patents.
Taking the weight off of every other runner works better, but it's still an oversimplification of the issue.


RE: The EU is retarded
By dever on 3/3/2007 11:23:13 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
What I don't understand is why protecting the total freedom of multi-billion dollar companies is so important to so many of you?
I'm amazed at how hard it is for so many people to follow a chain or sequence past the initial stage. What should be protected is the freedom of individuals to choose the products they want to purchase.


RE: The EU is retarded
By GI2K on 3/3/2007 5:05:18 AM , Rating: 2
hmm and what about the patriotic act?...


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By dgingeri on 3/1/2007 5:25:58 PM , Rating: 3
Perhaps you don't see the 20%+ unemployment rate or the 99%+ rate of failure of small businesses in Europe. Sure, there are a couple of countries that haven't quite slid as far down the hill as the others, but they are on that same slope and heading in the same direction as France, the worst of the bunch. There is a reason behind those months of violent protests.

As far as the US being "way too capitalistic", over half the money made by companies in the US is made by businesses of 250 people or less. It's closer to 10% for Europe. There is no room for small businesses in Europe because the only companies that can afford to hire people, that have to be employed practically forever, are very large companies who can eat the cost of a bad worker. if a bad worker gets in a small company, it kills the company.


RE: The EU is retarded
By ammlm on 3/1/2007 5:59:14 PM , Rating: 2
What he said.


RE: The EU is retarded
By PrinceGaz on 3/1/2007 7:00:36 PM , Rating: 3
20%+ unemployment rate and 99%+ failure rate of small businesses in Europe? This must be some strange new sort of Europe that only exists in the imagination of those in the United States because it certainly isn't true of the EU most of us are familiar with.

Yes, countries in the EU tend to give their citizens better rights and protections than the US does, which you see as a bad thing but the vast majority of people here see as good. We aren't anti-capitalistic by any means, but ensuring that a decent (and not just the least you can get away with) standard of education and healthcare for all regardless of ability to pay is something we are rightly proud of. As is investment in public transport projects which reduce reliance on relatively over-polluting cars.

And when it comes to MS or other companies (whether within or outside the EU, it is not something specific to US companies) which unfairly restrict competition by not providing the full documentation needed to allow inter-operability, then yes we quite rightly require that they comply with regulations to ensure healthy competition. Most companies comply long before there is any need for punitive penalties, but MS have repeatedly failed to do so and the only choice left is to punish them where it hurts (financially) for their anti-competitive practices.

Fining MS and other companies for refusing to allow healthy competition in the market is anything but anti-capitalistic, in fact what we are doing over here in the EU is helping to ensure that there actually is competition in a market which MS could otherwise have a total monopoly over if the documentation wasn't released.

A monopoly does nothing to help capitalism but that seems to be what you prefer, over here in the EU we prefer true competition.

And as for your comments about "bad workers" effectively killing small companies here, you are so out of touch with EU employment legislation that it is laughable.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 8:55:55 PM , Rating: 2
You've had the liberal wool pulled completely over your eyes, Gaz. Of course people see these protections as 'good'; if the government allowed me to be as lazy and unmotivated as in France or Sweden, my god, I'd think it was 'good' too! Great, in fact.

The situation in Europe is improving, that much can be given, but the situation is still very, very grave and if you don't realize that then it's only evidence that Europeans have yet to realize they're even in rough waters.

I'm too lazy to look up unemployment stats for every decayed EU state, but..
France: 8.6 Belgium: 11.7
Germany: 9.5 Poland: 14.9
Sweden: 5.3 EU Area Avg: 7.5
USA: 4.6 Hong Kong: 4.4
Singapore: 2.6 Thailand: 1.2
Malaysia: 3.1 South Korea: 3.3

First important thing to note: One of Sweden's own ministers blew the lid off the dirty little secret last year that they (and presumably other socialist states) have a massive under-reporting of unemployment due to people not being counted who are unemployed, not particularly seeking work, but are able to work, presumably choosing not to and manipulating the system because they can. His own estimate, and other economists, is somewhere between 20 and 30% for Sweden.

Second important thing to note is the huge disparity between those states that have known and practiced something truer to capitalism for quite a while, those that have just figured it out in recent decades but are faster learners, and those (Europeans) who fight it tooth and nail. Correlation? Naah.

But surely GDP growth tells a different story? Nope, sorry.

But capitalist America has a current-account deficit, that makes up for it, right? Nope, sorry -- its matched by a capital account surplus and, regardless, is a tiny part of our GDP such that it's inconsequential anyway. (And just for kicks, the EU area has a negative trade balance as well)

Europe is at a crossroads. It's larger corporations, now solid international players, are improving in management, and it's slowly trickling down. However, Europeans have thus far resisted the spoils of capitalism for fear of the pains that accompany the growth in brings. The EU will make decisions over the next decade that'll make it either a solid player in the 21st century or the old continent that got left behind. Don't try to make it sound so much better than it is.


RE: The EU is retarded
By wien on 3/1/2007 9:20:37 PM , Rating: 3
Are you seriously trying to tell me, and with a straight face to boot, that there is a 20-30% unemployment rate in Sweden? Are you counting children and pensioners then?

If you have ANY kind of evidence, I would seriously like to have a look, because I sure as hell haven't been able to find anything to indicate that. The closest I've been able to find is 15%, but that figure includes people on sick leave as well as people that, for various reasons, are in government programs. Calling that underreporting is simply ludicrous.

Should we just shuffle the sick people out in the streets, and have them fend for themselves perhaps? That'll toughen them right up.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I'm telling you that with a straight face. And yes, technically I'm including 'pensioners'; not the 70yr old retired ones, but the 30yr old ones unemployed and shuffled in to some perpetual job-training program or shuffled away in to some other pile of stats with people with bogus medical reasons, enjoying Swedens extremely lax unemployment benefits.

If you didn't find anything you haven't looked every hard because considering how heavily covered up this was when I first came upon it a year ago it's all over the place now. Even wikipedia hints at it, and several blogs have done very good analysis -- but I won't linkt to those, since I rail against blogs as sources of objectivity..

Apparently, this Swedish trade union found unemployment at 20%, though I can't read a damn word:
http://www.timbro.se/pdf/Alla_behovs_2.pdf

CNBC's European business site qoutes the same stats.

http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/sweden/...

Excellent paper covering many things by a research fellow with Valford Policy Research, with similar conclusions.

If you peer in to the blogs, and Sweden's own local blogs and news papers, financial news sites and their interviews, you'll find a multitude of economists, including liberal Hans Karlsson who started the whole thing, arriving at figures that are at the lowest around 10% and at the highest around 30%. Due to Sweden's opaque unemployment classifications though (which are indeed different than, say, Americas), god only knows. What is certain is that the official numbers are merely a dream.


RE: The EU is retarded
By sviola on 3/2/2007 11:51:03 AM , Rating: 2
Don't worry, US is soon to go the same path of unemployment if they continue to send all jobs abroad to cheaper countries like India, Eastern Europe and Brazil.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Zandros on 3/5/2007 5:26:33 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, yes, the reported unemployment of Sweden have traditionally not included sick people, and people in education such as university. If you include those as well, I think we reach about 12-13% of the people of working age not being employed, which is accounted for in another statistic than employment rate, as far as I recall.

Anyway, I would be careful to cite a liberal think tank (which is what Timbro is, not a trade union) wanting to help the liberals win an election in regards to employment statistics under a social-democrat government. I think you might find it to be a bit biased.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 6:53:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
This must be some strange new sort of Europe that only exists in the imagination of those in the United States because it certainly isn't true of the EU most of us are familiar with.

Interesting then, that the International Labour Organisation, Office for the European Union and the Benelux countries July 2006 Report on Employment reported a total 19.61% unemployment rate for EU countries during the time period January 1, 2005 through December 31, 2005. Further it stated, and I quote, "This measure is consistent with the unemployment measurements reported by independent analysists."

quote:
We aren't anti-capitalistic by any means, but ensuring that a decent (and not just the least you can get away with) standard of education and healthcare for all regardless of ability to pay is something we are rightly proud of.

The Ministère de la Santé, which I understand to be the equivalent to the U.S. Department of Health or Canadian Ministry of Health forgive me if that is inaccurate, reports the percentage of patients who die while awaiting non-emergency non-elective surgery. This would be operations like organ transplants, cardiac and nervous corrective surgeries, etc. According to their own report in December of 2006, for the 25 years 1980 through 2005, 11.6% of people waiting for life saving surgery died as a result of not receiving treatment between the time of diagnosis and scheduled treatment. The U.S. Department of Health reports similar statistics, but the number is a bit different: 0.6%, although the January report had an error of +/- 1.5%. The French report didn't have an error rate because the government has a record of every case.

As for education, well, here we have to public endeavors being compared. Remember, in the U.S., education has been socialized. And when the scope is broadened to include students from Asia, it becomes analagous to the fat kid heckling the slow kid cause he got picked last in dodge ball.

quote:
Most companies comply long before there is any need for punitive penalties, but MS have repeatedly failed to do so and the only choice left is to punish them where it hurts (financially) for their anti-competitive practices.

At least the EU is enforcing their law, I can't fault them for that.

quote:
Fining MS and other companies for refusing to allow healthy competition in the market is anything but anti-capitalistic, in fact what we are doing over here in the EU is helping to ensure that there actually is competition in a market which MS could otherwise have a total monopoly over if the documentation wasn't released.

Unfortunately for the EU's argument confiscating private property is not ensuring competition. The "documentation" you mention is Microsoft's private property. You can rest assured Microsoft will donate start-up money to competitors, abandon the European market, or even go bankrupt before they give that property away.

quote:
A monopoly does nothing to help capitalism but that seems to be what you prefer, over here in the EU we prefer true competition.

Again, funny, according to the ILO monopoly operations in the EU employ almost 16% of non-government employees. That's four times the rate of U.S. workers. (see above for source)

I agree the comment about "bad workers" seems a little too far off base.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:19:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or maybe the US has crossed the line into "way too capitalistic"?


If this were ever true, it happened more than two centuries ago, and is not true any longer. The US economy is more socialized today than ever before in U.S. history.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Regs on 3/6/2007 9:48:17 AM , Rating: 2
You must be a rare find in Europe as the unemployment rate sky rockets.


RE: The EU is retarded
By leidegre on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By Spivonious on 3/1/2007 3:17:15 PM , Rating: 3
200 years ago was 1807. We had been a country for 31 years at that point.


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 3:20:57 PM , Rating: 2
im sorry but how much do you know about the EU patent office?? I know lots of companies that have "frivilous" patents in the US AND the EU... the patent problem is not localized but nice try.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Sebec on 3/1/2007 11:24:40 PM , Rating: 2
A significant part of the American population came from the African continent too, you know.


RE: The EU is retarded
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 7:09:08 AM , Rating: 2
sorry, we racistically (slightly) overlooked that fact...
appologies...


RE: The EU is retarded
By Vim on 3/1/07, Rating: 0
RE: The EU is retarded
By ammlm on 3/1/2007 5:03:02 PM , Rating: 3
Hahahaha. Just like it doesn't take more than a day to approve thalidomide. I think we ALL know how that worked out....

The EU is friggin retarded; they're just whining because they can't keep up. If you guys switched to capitalism MAYBE you could be competitive. Your socialist BS economies JUST PLAIN DO NOT WORK!!! The EU wants to hold U.S. companies down because they are jealous, and too stupid to realize that a good economy in the U.S. benefits them, too. Their private sector is so reterded they have to get their public sector involved (Airbus, etc.) and even then they fail miserably. Too bad for the EU. Maybe someday (probably after they have destroyed themselves) they will realize how wrong they are.


RE: The EU is retarded
By warhaven on 3/1/2007 6:23:17 PM , Rating: 3
Interesting observation
quote:
Your socialist BS economies JUST PLAIN DO NOT WORK!!!

If it does not work, shouldn't the European Union be in an anarchistic state?

Besides that, it is interesting how everyone speaks of the European Union as a country. The European Union is made up out of 25 sovereign countries which have different types of economies.

It is funny how people talk about socialism like it is the same as communism. Or is it the "social" that is bothering people? Not that most countries have a socialistic economy anymore, like it was back in the days.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 9:49:18 PM , Rating: 3
In point of fact..

1. The economies do not work.. as well as their capitalist counterparts. Undeniably slower growth, higher unemployment, and typically lower innovation, productivity growth, etc. All easily verifiable statistics.

2. The EU is playing with the idea of yielding some sovereignty of individual states to the EU, last I heard. Some in favor, some opposed. In the world of economics, it's not at all uncommon to refer to the EU as a whole as the EU Area.. because it makes sense.

3. It would be a tall order for anyone to successfully debate that the apparent end-game goal of socialists is significantly different than that of the popular understanding of communism (not how it actually turned out).

Consider, for example, the focus of socialism on the welfare of the people at the expense of the individual.

quote:
We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all...
- Khrushchev
quote:
"The theory of the Communism may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
- Marx
quote:
"Communism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."
Trotsky
quote:
"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."
- Hillary Clinton

Contrasted with..

quote:
"Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments the real power lies in the majority of the community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the Constituents."
- Madison

Mhmm. Good luck unraveling communism and socialism.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Zurtex on 3/2/2007 7:48:19 AM , Rating: 2
1. Interestingly worded and debatable, if you view economies as "working well" being that your stock index number is very high, then I can't disagree. However I think some would argue that economies are there to serve the people and therefore the average quality of life is a better determining factor than an abstract concept of how big the numbers are that very rich people are getting.

2. You sound like all countries have absolute sovereignty, that's just not true, most don't. If you join the U.N you lose a little sovereignty, if you join NATO you lose a little sovereignty, if you sign an international treaty you lose a little sovereignty etc.. etc.. In the E.U, with the current set-up of the law, a country would have to agree to any constitution passed in Europe, there was a proposed constitution and France, among a couple of other countries voted no, so it wasn't carried any further.

3. "end-game"? I'm not quite sure what you mean. I'm not quite sure where Hillary Clinton stands on the American - Political scale but I'm thinking the quate ie take out of context / wildly miss-comparative.

I live in the U.K, relative to the U.S we have a very socialist government, our economy has done o.k, our unemployment rates a few years ago were at record lows, our free healthcare has massively benefited. Not everyone likes the government, but then we live in a democracy, so that's good. That said, the main right wing opposition , The Conservative party, would be seen as wildly socialist if it went to the U.S with the exact same agenda.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 7:53:15 PM , Rating: 2
In response to:
1. I think the poster's comment about "working well" means standard of living. For which the generally accepted standard is IPC (income per capita) which is usually converted to US dollars, but I have been seeing more and more quoted in Euros. While the IPC of EU member nations varies, they vary within a very narrow margin compared with the IPCs of a broad sample of nations across the world. And in this regard, the poster's comment holds water. The IPC of the EU as a whole is around $ 19,500 USD. In the U.S. IPC is about $41,500 USD. While there are a few countries in Europe that stand out, for instance Luxembourg's IPC is approx $70,000, it is important to note the U.S. government sets the poverty level at just under $17,000. At the risk of offending people all over the globe, the average EU resident has a standard of living only marginally better than those Americans so poor they are considered to be incapable of providing for themselves.

2. Joining the U.N. sacrifices no sovereignty. Membership is always voluntary and compliance by member states is voluntary. That is why the U.N.'s charter forbids the U.N. from having any military of its own. Joining the N.A.T.O. sacrifices no sovereignty. Membership and compliance is, likewise, voluntary. Thats only partially true when it comes to EU membership. So in a nutshell, most states begin with absolute sovereignty. However, social contracts often limit sovereignty.

3. I did the same double-take. "End game"? But what the poster was attempting to illustrate is that the U.S. has become radically more leftist over the course of its history. Like most multi-party political systems it sways back and forth over the years, but overall has trended left since the early to mid 1800s. Hillary Clinton is a former "First Lady" (wife of The President) who began a political career of her own when her husband left office. She is currently a US Senator (similar to the Brit's House of Lords), and has announced her candidacy for the office of President of the United States. Her political views would be considered leftist even in most of Europe. James Madison's comment was likely included since he is often referred to as "the father of The Constitution" and there has been no single political figure in U.S. history whose political views were more concurrent with it.

In the U.K. your economic model is left of the U.S., but noticably to the right of the rest of Europe. That's why no one was surprised it took you guys 20 years to join the EC. Don't you guys still measure all your output and standards in Pounds? I haven't been back to Scotland in almost a decade. Americans complain about the cost of our healthcare systm because they have become so separated from the cost of care they haven't a clue what it accually costs. On a per capita basis, the U.K.'s healthcare system costs dramatically more than it does in the U.S. with the added detriment of signicant reductions in the speed and variety of care. As for your healthcare system, lets agree its one of the best run socialized healthcare systems in the world.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Merry on 3/2/2007 10:07:46 AM , Rating: 3
Please go and find out what socialism is because evidently you do not know..

Really this topic makes for utterly shocking reading. There is so much bias in posts from both sides of the argument and also a shocking number of ill informed rubbish, such as this above.I urge people to stop commenting for commentings sake and have a look at

a)How the EU works
b)The definitions of socialism
c)The overriding public opinion re. types of parties in the EU, which happens to be a mixture of centre right and centre left parties. NOT socialists, far from it. We practice some thats called 'advanced liberalism' which is where people are in less fortunate situations are given a helping hand in order to achieve their potential. We like this. We voted for it. It works. Believe it or not its not all about the economy. Take the French economy, for example. Yes its is quite inefficient but then the standard of living is so much better. I know I would certainly choose being less well off over a better quality of life. Contrast this with one of the better performing economies, such as here in the UK, where we have the highest rate of binge drinking, the unhappiest kids and a remarkably high rate of crime. All of which can be attributed to our stupidly long working hours.

The people here have turned this into some sort of US v EU battle. It isnt. If MS wants to operate here it has to do so by our laws be they stupid or not. We like our political systems, on the whole (of course there are some, indeed possibly many who dont, such is the nature of politics). We voted for them so dont make it out like we're of a lesser intelligence because we opt for a differing type of government because thats not going to stick.


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/2/2007 10:33:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS wants to operate here it has to do so by our laws be they stupid or not.


yeah thats why i said the ppl in the EU have to wait so long for stuff the rest of the world enjoys (and have to pay much more for the same things as well... and dont try and blame the VAT) and that they should just stop selling there all together....


RE: The EU is retarded
By Merry on 3/2/2007 10:36:26 AM , Rating: 2
Its already been established that this wont happen. The Eu is a big market, no international business can afford to neglect it. I'm sure Sony is about to find this out...


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 7:55:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We voted for them so dont make it out like we're of a lesser intelligence because we opt for a differing type of government because thats not going to stick.

Stupid is as stupid does.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Grast on 3/2/2007 11:59:04 AM , Rating: 1
Ringhold,

You are my hero!!!! Thank-you for pointing out the differences in regards to the foundation of the U.S. versus EU.

It is too bad that most American have no idea of what personal liberty really means in regards to why this country was created. The founding fathers believed that personal liberty was the central figure of the new country.

This quote sums up my feelings about American liberty:

We hold these Truths to be self evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness — That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed.

I decide to NOT give the government to power to take my liberty.

It is too bad the founding principals of the EU are about socialist ideals.

Later..


RE: The EU is retarded
By sviola on 3/2/2007 1:03:11 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, France's and Germany's constitutions are far more advanced than US'.

Btw, you (americans) have decided to give the government the power to take your liberty. Have you ever heard of the Patriot Act?


RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/5/2007 12:31:51 PM , Rating: 2
American legislators and citizens were tricked into accepting the Patriot Act in the panic and fear post-9/11. It is not something that many of us are happy about.


RE: The EU is retarded
By ammlm on 3/3/2007 10:42:36 PM , Rating: 2
Woah! Look what I wrote on Thursday,

quote:
Their private sector is so reterded they have to get their public sector involved (Airbus, etc.) and even then they fail miserably.


Now read the DailyTech Home Page (specifically see the article about how Airbus just lost the last of its orders for its freight mega-plane (the one it is betting on in order to survive).

Looks like I must be psychic. As I said:

quote:
Your socialist BS economies JUST PLAIN DO NOT WORK!!!


And notice that I wrote "economIES;" I realize the E.U. is multiple countries. It's just most of them suck just as much (they came up with the union (hence have something in common), not me).


RE: The EU is retarded
By thejez on 3/1/2007 5:28:52 PM , Rating: 4
FYI im not from the US. but i am glad however that you are leaving the US and going to Europe....


RE: The EU is retarded
By dgingeri on 3/1/2007 5:36:04 PM , Rating: 2
So, is that "way better consumer product evaluation and delivery system" the reason the US produces 10 times and many life saving drugs as European companies? I'd say that's because US companies can actually make money to pay their workers, who actually do the research into making the drugs.

quote:
I know for a fact that I could live that much more comfortably in the EU for endless reasons.

This is because you'd be living off the remnants of the hard work of centuries ago.

Face it, Europe is a decaying civilization in its death throws. It makes nothing new. it eats away at it's old wealth, making no new wealth. It fosters unemployment and entitlement. It's becoming far too contagious to the US as well. Far too much of that attitude has leaked here and is destroying this country too. There is a reason the population of Europe has been declining for the last 50 years.

The European culture is all about 'me' and 'mine' rather than the advancement and betterment of mankind as a whole.


RE: The EU is retarded
By PrinceGaz on 3/1/2007 7:19:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The European culture is all about 'me' and 'mine' rather than the advancement and betterment of mankind as a whole.


I think you'll find that in comparison, the US is more about personal gain- the 'me' and 'mine' as you put it, than the EU is by a long way. Even the most politically right-wing well developed European countries have social policies which are streets ahead of the US where those who have money do well but those who don't are consigned to the gutter.

I think it is a good thing that the population in many developed EU countries is not growing as the planet is already over-populated and the last thing we need is further growth in our densely populated countries. A reduction in population is a positive trend and one which would be good for the US as well. Admittedly most of the land area of the US is currently unpopulated (give or take a few crazy rednecks) so you have plenty of room for more people, but significant population growth is not a good thing in already developed countries.

European culture and technology is far more about the [em]betterment of mankind than that of the US is. While money is still first here, other considerations are taken into account over how such improvements are distributed.


RE: The EU is retarded
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:19:08 PM , Rating: 2
You just proved for me that European thought hasn't abandoned Malthusian economic growth principles. In other words, growth is essentially impossible, and when the population grows beyond an equilibrium, it must be reduced -- in Malthus' day, through starvation. The rest of Europe betrays the same belief with the wild thought that 35hr mandated work week helps distribute the economic 'pie' to more workers.

Thankfully, the rest of the world left that model behind. Productivity, technology, allows permanent wealth expansion, and the higher the population the better. Exponential economic growth, exponential population growth. Only makes sense. But if Europe wants to drown in the wave of muslim immigrants, that's cool too.


RE: The EU is retarded
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 7:38:15 AM , Rating: 2
right you are man, totally...
it turns me off when sumone not absolving even the most elementary classes (in comparison to EU school system - a f***g kindergarden) critizises 'our' EU public and social policies...
add Quote:
US system is more likely the worst in the world...
1. the system where u can die in a hospital for not having a insurance policy or money at all seems to me as not even worth paying attention to or even get excited of...
2. this crap 'EU is all about 'me' and 'mine'...' u can shove up ur a**...have u ever been to EU? i bet not, because if u have a single time, u wouldn't even have spewd this filth out of ur mouth...

q: How do u as US care about your people?
supply them with guns, let them rot on the streets unless the have money?

ur major and unacceptable policy is to make money out of everything...
dot.


RE: The EU is retarded
By SmokeRngs on 3/2/2007 12:40:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. the system where u can die in a hospital for not having a insurance policy or money at all seems to me as not even worth paying attention to or even get excited of...


No hospital in the US can refuse to provide life saving treatment because someone does not have insurance or another way to pay for medical treatment. Someone with no insurance has a heart attack and goes to the hospital, the hospital treats them for the heart attack right then and there. I know a few people that have had this happen.

quote:
2. this crap 'EU is all about 'me' and 'mine'...' u can shove up ur a**...have u ever been to EU? i bet not, because if u have a single time, u wouldn't even have spewd this filth out of ur mouth...


Actually, the original statement is incorrect. More correctly put it would be "What can I get from the government today?". If citizens in the EU actually did care more about "me" and "mine" it would be a different situation. Instead of working towards shorter work weeks and trying to get more government handouts, they would be working harder to improve their situation on their own. This spurs innovation and wealth which ends up helping everyone in the long run. And while I have not visited any EU member state, I have spoken to and continue to speak to many citizens of EU and non-EU states on a regular basis. Many of them do not like the socialistic policies of their respective countries and see those same policies as driving things into the ground. Some of the countries are the UK, Finland, Sweden and Germany. A couple of the Swedish citizens I talked to had some interesting things to say about employment in Sweden. They were very similar to what Ringold has said about the unemployment rate.

quote:
q: How do u as US care about your people?
supply them with guns, let them rot on the streets unless the have money?


Sorry, we don't supply anyone with guns. Those with guns either paid for them or stole them. Most of which were paid for thankfully. Also, most people "out on the streets left to rot" are there by their own devices and do not take advantage of the programs out there to help them. I doubt very many of them have guns either. Even if they came into possession of a gun one way or another, they'd probably sell it as fast as they could for money.

Survival of the fittest has always been a part of nature and that will never change. If the strong do not survive, then the ability of the species to survive diminishes until the species dies out and another takes its place. Outside of the young, the human race is the only species that has protected the sickly and the weak to the extent that it has. I'm not trying to downplay compassion, but there is a point where you can go too far. Constantly leeching from the successful to prop up those who will not support themselves on their own drags down society. It's not instantaneous and takes a while. Taking away from someone successful to give to someone who has done nothing for that is punishment. It also takes away ability to create jobs from the same individual who can create jobs. It's a vicious cycle that feeds on itself. I don't know about anyone else here but I've never been employed by a poor person on welfare nor has anyone I know.

quote:
ur major and unacceptable policy is to make money out of everything...


Yes, many in the US dedicate themselves to creating wealth and a better life. In the process of doing this, they create wealth and a better life for those that help them directly or indirectly. This is done by providing a service or product that others want and are willing to pay for. This is done for just about everything. No one is forced to buy the product or service and no one is forced to help create the product or service. How is this a bad thing?


RE: The EU is retarded
By sviola on 3/2/2007 12:57:22 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, your speech sounds very close to the speech of a certain austrian person that ruled Germany from 1933 to 1945. Unless you follow his ideas, you should be careful with what you write.


RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/3/2007 9:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
WTH are you talking about? I see zero similarity.


RE: The EU is retarded
By euczechguy on 3/5/2007 1:27:12 AM , Rating: 2
and where did u get that? ilustrated kids' encyclopedia?


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 8:10:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
ur major and unacceptable policy is to make money out of everything...


The concept of currency is that it represents the ultimate value of everything. Market inefficiencies aside, the profit generated by any activity is the measure of that activity's value to society.

SmokeRngs, with the likely exception of John Adams, you sound remarkably similar to the founding fathers of the U.S. If you are an American, get involved in politics. Your countrymen need you.


RE: The EU is retarded
By ammlm on 3/4/2007 1:53:46 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry bud, but here in the U.S. you cannot be turned down at any hospital because you lack insurance.

On the other hand in Europe (this story is specifically about Sweden) doctors stop working about three quarters of the way through the year because they have made so much money that they are in the 90% tax bracket (and it is no longer worth it to work and keep 10% of their wages). So people go to the hospital and sit there without doctors. And die. In Sweden to get sick at the end of the year used to be a death sentence. I realize you guys have probably tried to fix this in some way or another (that story is a couple years old), but the problem still exists to some degree.

Maybe once you all ruin yourselves you will see what you should have done, and then all we can do is tell you how "we told you so."


RE: The EU is retarded
By Hare on 3/4/2007 3:23:18 PM , Rating: 2
Are you kidding me?

If you look at life expectency Sweden has around 78 years and the USA has around 75.

Probability of dying (per 1 000 population) between 15 and 60 years (adult mortality rate) males
USA: 137
Sweden: 82

Scandinavia is famous for its health care. Scandinavian countries have pretty much the worlds best health care. Nice try...

Feel free to validate these facts from the World Health Organization.


RE: The EU is retarded
By ttowntom on 3/5/2007 3:18:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
this crap 'EU is all about 'me' and 'mine'...' u can shove up ur a**...have u ever been to EU? i bet not, because if u have a single time, u wouldn't even have spewd this filth out of ur mouth...

q: How do u as US care about your people?
supply them with guns, let them rot on the streets unless the have money?
I swear someone posing as an EU citizen must have posted this, just to make them look bad. No one could be such an idiot in real life.


RE: The EU is retarded
By encryptkeeper on 3/1/2007 5:22:31 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to remember that a great deal of Europe was communist for 50 years. That miiiiiiiiiiight account for them being against capitalism.

SOny, MS, and Intel should just stop selling to you people all together

You people! What black people?


RE: The EU is retarded
By scrapsma54 on 3/1/2007 6:34:13 PM , Rating: 2
Why let third parties into vista if many third party companies are the reason for the muck, spyware, and viruses?


RE: The EU is retarded
By Kevil on 3/2/2007 10:07:35 AM , Rating: 2
And what you think they won't get in anyway??


RE: The EU is retarded
By TomZ on 3/5/2007 12:40:51 PM , Rating: 2
The point is to make it hard, not easy. Virus, malware, and adware writers still have to deal with a basic economic reality that it has to be economically worth their effort to break in. The purpose of Vista's security initiatives is to raise the bar and significantly increase the cost to write such software.


RE: The EU is retarded
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 5:03:06 PM , Rating: 2
Don't let your frustration with the EU's oppressive measures distract you, thejez. Sony, MS, and Intel are all profit-seeking entities, not organizations for social justice. Those companies exist only to increase the wealth of their owners. If compliance with EU law is the most effective way to accomplish that end, they will, rightly, do so.


There seems to be
By Merry on 3/1/2007 2:26:54 PM , Rating: 3
A lot of childish name calling going on here. This is evidently a complex case. EU law is set out the basis of equality etc, indeed if you do a little reading into the purpose of the EU you'll see why such actions will be taken. It isnt some anti American thing because, lets face it, there is no alternative OS from an EU company, so why, in this area at least would they want to depose MS altogether? All they appear to want is more competition thus benefiting the consumer.

I cant pretend to understand what this particular case is all about, nor do I have the time or inclination to find as to whether the EU is right or wrong to take such actions in this issue at all. I'm trying to point out, before the lot of you go EU 'bashing' that the EU does do a lot of good for Europe and, at the end of the day, its Political ideology is fundamentally based upon that prevailing in the EU be it socially democratic or liberal.

The other point I would like to make is that any company should not operate over the law in a country, or region in which it does business, regardless of how stupid the law is (i'm not going to be naive and say that the EU hasn't made some silly rulings in the past).

I study the EU as part of my degree, i know it isnt perfect but, as a citizen of the EU, the benefits for us are huge in terms of trade and the wider economy. That may be bad for the US, which i'm sure you wont be happy with, but then thats competition and on an international level its never perfect. Your country would do and indeed has done exactly the same thing (with regard tariffs and such) to nurture its own industry and protect others.

So to sum up

1)This isnt a socialist conspiracy against the US (the EU requires nations to have a free market and democratic system of government before joining)
2)EU law, whether stupid or not must be obeyed by companies operating within its borders
3)Yes we are 'advanced liberals'. This is entirely different to socialism. We voted for it, its not a bad thing. Its certainly nothing to do with you.




RE: There seems to be
By dever on 3/1/2007 2:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
there is no alternative OS from an EU company
Untrue, there are alternatives... it's just that the market continues to choose one alternative above another.


RE: There seems to be
By Merry on 3/1/2007 3:23:43 PM , Rating: 2
Untrue, there are alternatives...

Name one European OS then that isn't opensource. That was my point. I'm well aware there are alternative OS's. I run Linux.

it's just that the market continues to choose one alternative above another.

Because it is superior or because you are locked in by proprietary file formats and standards (direct x?)? Personally I think MS does well because its products are, on the whole good, but I do also think that because of the way it operates there is limited room in the market for a much needed stronger competitor(s).


RE: There seems to be
By TomZ on 3/1/2007 3:52:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Name one European OS then that isn't opensource. That was my point. I'm well aware there are alternative OS's. I run Linux.

Why does it have to be commercial to be an "alternative"? Anyway, how about OS-X as a commercial alternative? Your statement that there are no alternatives is just plain wrong. There are alternatives and there always have been. In fact, Windows was originally developed as an alternative to OS/2. It was the underdog at the time.
quote:
Because it is superior or because you are locked in by proprietary file formats and standards (direct x?)?

Not everything can be "designed by committee." When time-to-market or performance are important, proprietary formats/standards will beat open standards in almost any case.


RE: There seems to be
By Jack Ripoff on 3/1/2007 6:01:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When time-to-market or performance are important, proprietary formats/standards will beat open standards in almost any case.

Most open standards were already on the market way before Microsoft introduced their proprietary ones (e.g. HTML, DNS, NIS, POSIX, UDI, TeX, OpenGL, etc.)


RE: There seems to be
By ElDuderin0 on 3/2/2007 2:04:10 PM , Rating: 2
European developed operating systems:
RISC OS, originally by Acorn, now by Castle LTD/RISC OS LTD, from the UK

BE OS, originally by Be Inc. (from California, but founded by a French guy), now called Zeta and maintained by Magnussoft of Germany.

Linux kernel, Finland... of course not an operating system in itself, usually paired with GNU (USA created)

MorphOS, confusing really who owns the rights, but I believe its Genesi, a European company, German I think.

I guess thats enough, but yeah, I'd say the big ones are all pretty much American, UNIX/Solaris/HP-UX/BSD/GNU, Windows, MacOS, Z/OS... thats usually what I think of when I think of operating systems, but I guess you could argue that once open-source'd (BSD/GNU/Linux) any nationality ownership goes away.


RE: There seems to be
By iNGEN on 3/2/2007 8:16:11 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you, ElDuderin0.

You beat me to compiling a list. As a Be user I was hot to respond on that one.


RE: There seems to be
By Murst on 3/1/2007 2:43:36 PM , Rating: 3
Why do you consider socialism and democracy to be exclusive?

One refers to financial policy while the other represents how laws are enacted (in reality, they're republics, so you elect officials, whatever).

For example, Cuba is what we could consider communism (technically that is not the appropriate term, but w/e). They are also a democracy (republic technically). Sure, they might only have a single candidate to vote for, but they still elect him with their votes (something similar happens in a lot of districts in the US in elections when there is only one candidate).

So... just because someone calls a country socialistic or capitalistic, that certainly doesn't have any effect on whether the country is a democracy, republic, monarchy, etc.


RE: There seems to be
By Merry on 3/1/2007 3:19:08 PM , Rating: 3
Why do you consider socialism and democracy to be exclusive?

I dont recall saying anything of the sort

One refers to financial policy while the other represents how laws are enacted

Socialism is a political ideology that, if followed dictates what sort of policies a government will pass be in financial or other. Of course there are many types of socialism all varying in nature.

So... just because someone calls a country socialistic or capitalistic, that certainly doesn't have any effect on whether the country is a democracy, republic, monarchy, etc.

as i said above, i didn't say this. I was trying to point out that by its very nature most of the main political parties in the EU are either 'advanced liberals' or 'socially democratic' (note not socialist) thus the EU will reflect that with regard policies and such.


RE: There seems to be
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 3/1/2007 4:46:14 PM , Rating: 1
Frankly, I think the problem here is that the EU sees this as black and white. Competition = good for the consumer. The problem is that isn't necessarily true. Competition CAN be good, but not necessarily. In the case of Microsoft, they have plenty of "Competition" but the competition if you want to call it that, is a joke. Linux? Please. Apple? Maybe if they ever got off the closed box mentality. Unix? Dream on.

Microsoft is the only company that has invested litterally BILLIONS of dollars and god knows how many man hours to build an end to end solution. They wanted to build an OS, and they did that. They then wanted to fix problems with the lack of standardization in the industry. So they standardized the Windows API's, Direct X, and others, and holy shit look what happened. Software development made leaps and bounds in no time and thus we have the present situation. Microsoft set the standards, and everyone else followed. Software runs great on Windows, and programming for it is absolute cake. Try programming for Linux, its a pain in the padded ass. Programming for windows? Piece of cake. I can whip something out in a couple of days, in Linux that takes weeks because the Binaries and shit aren't the same from one distro to the next, or you can build custom ones.

Seriously, the EU needs to look at how much of a pain in the ass it is to develop on a non-windows platform. Maybe if they make Linux just as easy to develop in as Windows they might have a case, but saying that Windows is extremely difficult to develop for? I've got millions of software programmers that would beg to differ.


RE: There seems to be
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Just to support the first three or four sentences..

If one looks like the estimated social welfare loss that occurs due to monopoly's it's really pretty small. A lot of the time, less than 1%. The largest exceptions (UK Agriculture?) also happen to be the ones that're least talked about -- and even then, the 10-20% welfare losses are controversial depending on how they were arrived at.

It's also obvious that the natural state of some markets is oligopoly or monopoly -- hate to tell anti-trust fans, but the AT&T band is nearly all back together.


RE: There seems to be
By Hare on 3/1/2007 2:49:34 PM , Rating: 5
You know what. I believe (I really want to believe) that there are plenty of folks in the USA that share your view. However, I'm sure that you will quickly get rated down because there are just too many ignorant people who don't know the facts and simply believe that the EU wants to steal from an American company (so that MS could charge even more since ultimately the european consumer pays these fines?).

The empty kettle rattles the most. That's exactly why these Anti-EU folks will soon mod us both down. It's too bad that people see this issue so black and white. No one seemed to be against EU when they were after Apple and DRM.


RE: There seems to be
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:36:22 PM , Rating: 1
I'd like to believe what you two believe, but it's hard to do so in the face of their actions.

If they were so interested in fair competition, why nurse Airbus/EADS along in an almost illegal fashion?

Why not liberalize their local markets, encourage small business growth, and create competition from the ground up? Why not encourage innovation so that European companies can create world-class products and services?

They can't do any of that as the population isn't ready for it. But the population does have a fair degree of disdain for America. So, instead of going after DeBeers or the local utility and fuel monopolies (which dont just jack up European energy costs but are downright dangerous), which could have uncertain results or at the very least not capture headlines, they go after symbols of America. Microsoft, Apple, Google.

When the EU starts showing interest in fair trade, I'll change my mind.


RE: There seems to be
By Hare on 3/2/2007 6:04:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
they go after symbols of America. Microsoft, Apple, Google.
Because the EU has very strong consumer and competition laws and that's exactly why DRM is frowned at as an example. DRM is also under fire in the USA.

Let's not be childish. These fines are are not that big and the EU is not doing this because it wants money. Think about the size of the European economy and compare that to these fines. Ultimately the europeans pay these fines in product prices so why on earth would the EU want that?

They EU is not after just American companies. Feel free to google. I could quickly post an example:
quote:
The word’s biggest lift manufacturers are bracing themselves for a record fine from the European Commission that could amount to almost €1 billion (£673 million) for alleged price-fixing activities.

Industry sources told The Times that some evidence of cartel-like behaviour had been investigated in Germany and the Benelux countries (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg), but insisted that this did not amount to Europe-wide price-fixing.

Complaints from smaller rivals are believed to have led to the launch of an inquiry nearly three years ago into the so-called “big four” lift manufacturers: United Technologies Corp’s (UTC) Otis Elevators, based in the United States and Paris; Schindler Group of Switzerland; ThyssenKrupp from Germany; and the Helsinki-based Kone Group. -NY times


RE: There seems to be
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 7:52:46 AM , Rating: 2
in fact the anti-monopoly bureau, as it exists in Czech republic, protects the freedom and IS definitelly NOT suprresing capitalism and competion...
as u might have noticed, the process is very simple...
by denying any anti-monopoly illegal acts (take f.i. MS) the bureau is actually giving a legal chance to other, smaller companies to make the business of their own...
haven't u people ever taken a look at the situation this way?


RE: There seems to be
By Merry on 3/2/2007 10:33:39 AM , Rating: 1
If they were so interested in fair competition, why nurse Airbus/EADS along in an almost illegal fashion?

Its not illegal by our laws

Why not liberalize their local markets, encourage small business growth, and create competition from the ground up? Why not encourage innovation so that European companies can create world-class products and services?


They are, as I said somewhere else, in order to enter the EU a nation must have a free market economy.

They can't do any of that as the population isn't ready for it

Now that is insulting, very insulting and also not true. We were innovating and growing before you were even a proper country. Many of you are from Europe, hell George Washington was from Yorkshire. I'm not really sure what your trying to say here, that we are not intellectually able or unwilling to adopt a totally free market, well, as I have established many times we do have a free market with welfare provision, its called advanced liberalism, it works. There ae many complex reasons as to the reasons behind our relative economic decline, you have not yet mentioned any valid ones. I think its important at this juncture to point out that its relative decline, thus, its not going to render the EU a poor region any time soon, if ever.

showing interest in fair trade, I'll change my mind.


What about the US? They killed the Welsh steel industry with unfair trade practices, to name but one. Every country does it, dont be naive.


RE: There seems to be
By sviola on 3/2/2007 1:18:35 PM , Rating: 2
Neither US or EU are true open markets. They create huge taxes on imports to protect their local industries and complain when other countries doesn't (both do that on agricultural products and on some manufactured items as well).


RE: There seems to be
By SmokeRngs on 3/2/2007 1:29:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We were innovating and growing before you were even a proper country.


This is the typical downfall of many of the old European nations. The mindset that they are better because they are older is dangerous.

Anyone that knows history knows that the Industrial Revolution began in Europe which is the foundation for the current state of civilization the world is in now. However, the level of success and innovation that began around 200 years ago does not exist in Europe at the present time. It has been surpassed and carried on by other countries since. Trying to use achievements from the past that are not indicative of the current state of affairs to your advantage does not help your argument at all.


RE: There seems to be
By iollmann on 3/2/2007 12:11:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1)This isnt a socialist conspiracy against the US (the EU requires nations to have a free market and democratic system of government before joining)
2)EU law, whether stupid or not must be obeyed by companies operating within its borders
3)Yes we are 'advanced liberals'. This is entirely different to socialism. We voted for it, its not a bad thing. Its certainly nothing to do with you.


By way of apology for my cognition-free countrymen I will point out that they are suffering from several cultural handicaps:

1) Being smart isn't fashionable here.
2) Ronald Reagan managed to recoin "Liberal" to be an insult. It's been long enough now that there is an entire generation that actually believes it -- its a bit like the lost generations in Afghanistan that are unemployable in peacetime because they've only known war. When you hear the wort Liberal from an American, it is likely that you would be correct in imagining him to be spitting on you as he says it.
3) Americans (the noisy ones, anyway) seem to think that the principled approach to politics is to be an ideologue. Never waver from the dogma, regardless of the empirical evidence to the contrary.

George Bush is an excellent example for many of these things. While I'm not terribly surprised that he was elected, I was astounded by my countrymen when he was reelected. I think maybe we aren't so good at seeing the substance under the shimmer, or maybe just easily confused. In any case, it speaks volumes about the electorate.

Quite frankly if the EU wants to spend it's money on a welfare state, that its business in my opinion. Here in the US we spend that money on the military instead. I should note that while drug-addict fornicating welfare mothers are no doubt a bottomless money pit into which government coffers can easily empty, the return on investment for making a bomb is also vanishingly small. Indeed the economic return for using a bomb can actually be negative. It has to be replaced and it probably destroyed some wealth building capital when it went off.

Anyway, before American throw stones, they should check their local building codes. It turns out that we are a welfare state too:

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2...
http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/economic-policy/rep...

...one that is rapidly going into debt, because we also spend vast quantities (~8 times more than anyone else) on the military, and account for nearly half of world wide military spending.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spend...

As to the topic at hand, it appears that the EU and the US justice department are both learning that they don't actually have as much power as they think they should have. They can't actually fine Microsoft so much that the company ceases to do business. We all need Microsoft, at least in the short term.


RE: There seems to be
By Grast on 3/2/2007 2:43:43 PM , Rating: 1
iollmann,

Before you get off of your high horse about military spending, lets put that in relation. The U.S. spends more money on domestic health and human services than military spending. While the difference is only a few billion for 2007, the fact remains we spend as much and more money on social issues than the military.

I also like to point out we are spending money on a WAR to protect your freedom. Pre-911 military spending was half as much but let not bring up 911 that would probably upset someone.

Later....


Fuck the EU
By archcommus on 3/1/2007 1:45:35 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously...I usually don't use such profanity but I'm tired of their bullshit. You don't see Microsoft facing such difficulties here in the US, and we seem to be getting along with them just fine.




RE: Fuck the EU
By Tsuwamono on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: Fuck the EU
By mendocinosummit on 3/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: Fuck the EU
By thejez on 3/1/2007 2:00:19 PM , Rating: 5
cause they didnt pay to develop it?


RE: Fuck the EU
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:38:24 PM , Rating: 2
The EU has balls?

<checks NATO forces in Afghanistan-- still with European forces refusing combat duties>

Uh, come again?


RE: Fuck the EU
By GI2K on 3/3/2007 5:46:47 AM , Rating: 2
Why the hell should we do someone else war... at already a damn miracle there's even some of our soldiers there.


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 1:54:53 PM , Rating: 2
Sure. Except if you happen to be a software vendor wanting to make certain products compatible with the leading OS.

You can cry all you want about how Microsoft are allowed to lock others out of their own protocols (I assume it's allowed in the US?), but in the EU that is thankfully illegal due to their monopoly status. Hence the fines.


RE: Fuck the EU
By PWNettle on 3/1/2007 4:28:22 PM , Rating: 3
Why fines? How does that help anyone except the people imposing the fines? And why should MS pay? What's the commission gonna do of they don't pay? Cry a river?

How about instead of fines, the commission says, if you won't do business how we tell you to do business, then you can no longer sell software here or support your existing software here?

That'd go over well.

Basically this commissions wants the european companies that OWN it to be able to make money off of Microsoft. If you think it's about fairness you have no clue. As if businessmen in Europe are somehow magically less greedy than businessmen anywhere else.


RE: Fuck the EU
By Shakkan on 3/1/2007 2:02:34 PM , Rating: 2
I say Microsoft boycotts Europe. They're annoying.
I wonder if they make any profits off the EU territories.
By the way, I'm no Microsoft fanboy. PS3 > 360!
The EU can go phoque themselves though. :)


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 2:10:54 PM , Rating: 4
Good idea. I'm sure that wouldn't hurt Microsoft or the rest of the American software industry at all! The EU is a fairly large chunk of Microsoft's market you know. And if that chunk suddenly went to *nix or Apple, I can guarantee you Microsoft wouldn't last long. Not in their current state anyway.


RE: Fuck the EU
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 8:00:45 AM , Rating: 2
u dont have a single idea, do u?


RE: Fuck the EU
By leidegre on 3/1/2007 3:02:26 PM , Rating: 2
This is coprate whine, nothing more. From a developer standpoint, there is nothing difficult with Windows development.

Sure with Vista, there are a changes to certain things, and it will take some time to get used to it. But hardly a major obstacle. They see only the time it will cost to adapt to the changes, and becuase that, they see a loss in profit, and of course; complain about the situation!

I expect my OS to be a complete product, and that include software like Internet Explorer and Windows Defender. Now why should that be illegal!?

There is a great difference in how the US and EU handle politics, and that's a big debate, but they might be pursuing Microsoft a bit too harsh, and possibly from an invalid standpoint.


RE: Fuck the EU
By sviola on 3/2/2007 1:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
You know MS broke a few competitors in the 90s offering their software for free just to get the marketshare, don't you? (Btw, those were american companies)


RE: Fuck the EU
By darkpaw on 3/2/2007 1:58:41 PM , Rating: 2
Netscape helped themselves into the hole by releasing completely crap after ver 4.

Providing the browser be free was one of the best things ever done to spur adoption of the Internet. I've never been a big IE fan and used Netscape when it was good then Firefox for the past several years, but IE is actually pretty important to the history of the Internet's mass adoption.

Real is another case of a constant MS compeitior thats always screaming about incompetitivness. If Real didn't put out such shitty software, it would be able to compete. Who wants that horrible bloatware, ad serving crap on their computer though?

If companies or organizations put out better products then what MS includes for free, people will use those products. I think Firefox is the ultimate proof of this.


EU: Soon to be MU
By kenferg1 on 3/1/2007 5:09:18 PM , Rating: 2
For those of you worried about EU socialism, don't. The European Union will soon be the Muslim Union as the burden of socialism and enlightened secularism crush its population. You see, they are not reproducing. The Muslim immigrants are on a reproduction rampage. Certainly within 100 years the countries that make up Europe will be dominated by Islam and its seventh century mentality.

Right now all of the lawsuits against MS are about funding the collapsing socialist system of cradle to grave welfare that the people have voted themselves. They have no military to defend themselves. Their standard of living is beneath any American standard. They are over regulated and voted away their rights and freedom long ago in the name of safety.

Pity the EU as it continues to saw the boards and forge the nails for its own coffin. Continental feelings of superiority cannot make up for EU inferiority. I weep for what was, and shake my head at what is to come.




RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By wien on 3/1/2007 5:31:09 PM , Rating: 3
Heh. The Muslim immigrants will out breed us "native" Europeans over a 100 year period? They must have some serious mojo going on to do that. :)

Anyway, I hate to feed the troll, but I think you need to visit Europe and see just how exceptionally wrong you are on every account in that rant. We're doing quite all right over here, thank you very much.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By housecat on 3/1/2007 5:40:33 PM , Rating: 1
Not for long. You're gonna be thinking "reconquista" soon enough. If you have the numbers, military or political power any longer by the point you wake up.

Might as well extort some cash out of MS to support the socialist state, while you still can.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By wien on 3/1/2007 5:56:46 PM , Rating: 2
I don't really like the EU either, but you people are just too much. :) The EU is about as socialist as the US fascist. (Not very much) Countries in the EU are leaning (less and less unfortunately) towards social democracy. The difference between that and socialism is huge in just about every way that counts.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By housecat on 3/1/2007 6:21:26 PM , Rating: 2
I just wish you would preserve our homeland, and stop your influx of mass islamic immigration.

Our immigration patterns (hispanic) are still a branch of western society.. very compatible with our systems.
Your immigration patterns (islamic), is as you HOPEFULLY can see at this point due to Frances troubles.. indeed NOT compatible with our way of life, my friend!
You have failed to integrate them on mass-scale and it might not even be possible... wake up Europe!

When the US went into Iraq, there were middle easterners holding signs saying "Freedom go to Hell".
You're going to all end up a part of an Islamic empire like Spain was.

Your socialistic ways and anti-American attitudes (while disgusting) are the least of your worries now.
I love Europe and read ancient and medieval history all the time as the rest of us westerners still lived in your lands at those times.
Save yourselves, please.

It is kind of disappointing that America has emerged as the strong beacon for the West when the place Western society emerged from has turned to such a self destructive path.
If you do not know what I mean, I'm saying godless marxism and socialistic attitudes.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By wien on 3/1/2007 8:55:03 PM , Rating: 2
As long as they follow local law, and otherwise behave as relatively productive members of society, anyone is welcome in my "homeland". Muslims and xenophobic nutjobs like yourself included.

People with your attitude make me sad.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By housecat on 3/2/2007 9:11:50 AM , Rating: 2
It might make you sad.

But your inevitable future, will make you cry.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/paris_riots/

Sure, you will be able to keep the peace there. You'll just eventually have to hand over your nation.
You dont get it, yet.. but enjoy. :)


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By Ratwar on 3/1/2007 5:42:00 PM , Rating: 2
You do know that some of the Scandinavian countries have a higher standard of living that the US, right?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft was being underhanded in some fashion, but I can't help but think that the EU is biased against American Companies, especially since Microsoft certainly isn't the only large US corporation to have trouble with the EU (Boeing vs Airbus over government subsidiaries, the French/German government search engine to compete with Google).


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By housecat on 3/1/2007 6:00:48 PM , Rating: 2
High standard of living due to socialistic practices are not sustainable long term.

Also comparing nations of two such differing sizes and populations is difficult.

Overall, the average American has more expendable income than a Scandinavian.

The difference between a socialists "standard of living" and a capitalists can be quite large.

Most people prefer the capitalist American standard of living.. which is why everyone is flooding into the USA, rather than running to Scandinavia.
'Nuff said.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By Ringold on 3/1/2007 10:48:46 PM , Rating: 2
I read a first-of-its-kind global wealth analysis study not long ago; interesting results.

While the USA may have negative savings rates, it's sitting on a mountain of wealth. A large swath of Swedes, on the other hand, have cradle-to-grave negative wealth! The only thing the study could think of to explain it is that with the absolute certainty of the safety net and that the next welfare payment will arrive there is no reason at all to save.

I'm keeping a close eye on Sweden.. it'll be interesting to see if that's sustainable.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By Ratwar on 3/2/2007 3:23:41 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, I never made the claim that it was sustainable. I was just letting him know that at the moment, he's wrong.

Anyways, I agree with you.


RE: EU: Soon to be MU
By housecat on 3/1/2007 5:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I weep for what was, and shake my head at what is to come.


As do I, my friend.
I love Europe.. as it was and should be, and the character that used to inhabit the peoples that live there.

I'm starting to think the wise europeans took off for the colonies.. sick of Europes continual mismanagement such as we are witnessing now..

You sentiments on the EU/MU are spot on. They're done already but to sensitive and liberal to do anything about it.

This can be described as the Enlightenment era.. gone to far. It would be a fine future plan, if Islam had taken the social progressiveness Western society has the past centuries as well.

I want to travel to my ancient ancestral homelands someday.. and see them as my ancestors did, not as part of the islamic empire.

I have many Islamic sadiqs from Saudi and Iran, and I admire them for many reasons, but europe has failed to integrate them. The sheer numbers allowed in have made this potentially impossible regardless.

In all honesty, it might be the best future for europe.. this fate. The natives are majority godless right now, and maybe the conquest of europe by muslims would show them the false path that is godless marxism is not the way to prosperity.
Their conquest might be the result of turning their back on our savior Jesus Christ. Who knows, I just know its game over for most of those nations.

I hope the USA for one, does not spare our sons to save them from themselves again.


EU WTF?
By Nik00117 on 3/1/2007 2:06:28 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Microsoft $4 million USD per day for not providing affordable tools to help its competitors develop compatible software for Windows-based operating systems.


Jesus thats unthinkable you know. Microsoft refuses to give its competitors (The ones that want to take them out of business) help...

You know if the EU told me to tell my competitors the sercets of my wonderful business and the trade sercets which I figured out and did myself i'd tell them to fuck off.




RE: EU WTF?
By wien on 3/1/2007 2:17:22 PM , Rating: 2
If they did, it would mean you already had a monopoly in the market. I would be pretty happy if I was that well off.


RE: EU WTF?
By housecat on 3/1/2007 2:42:49 PM , Rating: 1
Euros are so jealous the USA took their place in the world (held by the English and French for over 1,000 years) they cant stand it.. it results in this.
The US has a strong future ahead, Europe is done for (mainly immigration issues).. just a matter of time.


RE: EU WTF?
By Merry on 3/1/2007 3:35:29 PM , Rating: 2
Euros are so jealous the USA took their place in the world (held by the English and French for over 1,000 years) they cant stand it.. it results in this.

So after loosing its position (arguably) in the world they decide to turn on Microsoft. Get real. I would also like to point out that there isnt much difference between the EUs GDP and the US's

The US has a strong future ahead, Europe is done for (mainly immigration issues).. just a matter of time.

In economic terms we're both done for. Two words China and India. I'd also like to know about the 'immigration issues'. Quite a bit of immigration, into the UK at least has been beneficial to our economy and has helped to plug a fair few labour shortages.


RE: EU WTF?
By housecat on 3/1/2007 5:38:07 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So after loosing its position (arguably) in the world they decide to turn on Microsoft. Get real. I would also like to point out that there isnt much difference between the EUs GDP and the US's


First, its "losing" not "loosing". I hope to God you aren't an Englishman? ;) Because you just got pwned by an American who is bilingual in Spanish and Inglés. We are such clods, are we not? Ugly American indeed!
Not quite, my hatefilled Euros! We run the show for good reason.

But to respond to your comment- yes, I recognize that its VERY petty to target Microsoft and other American business.
But, that is what the EU is reduced to.

You should be proud to be an Englishman. The pound is doing very well (better than the euro and dollar) and they arent exactly quite... "euro" like the rest.. which is approaching dirty word status.

quote:
In economic terms we're both done for. Two words China and India. I'd also like to know about the 'immigration issues'. Quite a bit of immigration, into the UK at least has been beneficial to our economy and has helped to plug a fair few labour shortages.


Not quite. I think Britain allying itself closer to the USA instead of the EU will be in its best future interests.
kenferg1 posted in this thread detailing what I meant as far as 'immigration issues'.

France and Germany are done for, they are the backbone to the EU. Though I'm guessing Germany is conservative enough at heart, they will do what is necessary to save their nation for their own people. If at all possible at this point.
France, is in a real mess though. And they do not realize it.. well maybe due to the riots they do. :P

I would stay away from the continental clowns, they do nothing but drag down Britain. Which is Europes leader by far and emerged versus France in the global culture war as the dominant force.
Even in fashion, London > Paris and the USAs rise has only reinforced Britains success.

As you might be able to tell, I'm admirer of the British Empire and the Roman Empire and what both did.

Our nations can survive in a world with India and China, just must play it smart..
But France is done for. This, coming from someone with both British and French ancestry.. I have affinity for most of old Europe, as my family history runs with Europes till the 18th century. But I pity most of the continental ones.

The EU is a last-ditch socialist effort of a dying folk who will lose their nations soon enough.
America will probably have to come to their aid sometime in the future and bail them out, alongside Britain.
Its happened before.


RE: EU WTF?
By Merry on 3/1/2007 6:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
lots of words, very little substance.

Sorry, i thought I'd reduce myself to your level.


RE: EU WTF?
By housecat on 3/2/2007 9:13:45 AM , Rating: 2
Actually you just looked silly. But thats ok. Retreating from situations has become standard European practice these days.


RE: EU WTF?
By Merry on 3/2/2007 10:21:37 AM , Rating: 1
Look how am i meant to justify that load of xenophobic crap with any sort of dignity?

Since this article appeared my view of your country has been tragically altered, i'm sorry but thats the way it is. In none of my posts have a judged the US and its practices yet here you are blatantly attacking a region you appear to know little about. Its utterly shocking in every way.

Retreating from situations has become standard European practice these days.

Examples? Is the because the French didn't fancy supporting the war in Iraq? Anyway its a good job we in the UK dont like retreating otherwise theres a good you'd not be so free to spout rubbish freely (arguably).


RE: EU WTF?
By sviola on 3/2/2007 1:36:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The US has a strong future ahead, Europe is done for (mainly immigration issues).. just a matter of time.


This coming from a country that speak English, but half of the country only speaks Spanish.


RE: EU WTF?
By osalcido on 3/7/2007 7:28:20 PM , Rating: 2
there is no official language in America... you can speak Martian if you want to. All it does is create more jobs for interpreters and expose us to different cultures and languages. I've never seen hispanics riot like your muslim friends do


RE: EU WTF?
By Spivonious on 3/1/2007 3:23:00 PM , Rating: 2
And anyway, Visual Studio 2005 is a few hundred bucks. You can do all of the latest and greatest Windows development with that. Or you can download the .NET SDK for free and use the code editor of your choice.

I really don't see how MS doesn't provide "affordable tools."


Fuck the EU
By Crusader on 3/1/2007 1:58:02 PM , Rating: 2
This is nothing more than Euro hatred for America and American business.

Thats it. Sorry.




RE: Fuck the EU
By Rampage on 3/1/2007 2:08:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft has offered access its IP for a price that is 30% below the current market rate, but the EU thinks that Microsoft's price should be closer to $0.


Need much more proof?

Yeah, $0 that makes sense. How about the European Union can go fuck itself?

MS blocks no one from marketing an OS. Just because no one can compete properly, or doesnt want to (Apple).

Methinks the Euros cant compete with the big boys..
that much is clear.


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 2:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
What's the "market rate" for IP that they're 30% below though? Is this a standard rate applying to all IP? $XX per patent times a factor YY for innovativeness? Or is this some unrealistic price Microsoft has set before to prevent others from licensing their IP?


RE: Fuck the EU
By Rampage on 3/1/2007 2:45:32 PM , Rating: 2
So a realistic, market-rate is $0?

Its clear this is hate + jealousy.


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 3:15:03 PM , Rating: 2
I never said that, and neither did the EU as far as I've been able to tell from the article. They have just said that a large portion of the IP Microsoft is licensing contains "virtually no innovation" and therefore is priced too high.

The $0 looks like a offhand comment made in the summary.

Clear as mud.


RE: Fuck the EU
By Spivonious on 3/1/2007 3:18:39 PM , Rating: 2
If the IP contains no innovation, then why would anyone want to license it in the first place? This whole EU vs. MS nonsense is ridiculous.


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 3:37:28 PM , Rating: 3
Because they need it to be able to interoperate with Windows. It's that simple. No one wants to license CIFS for it's technical merits (Or so I assume). They want it to be able to seamlessly integrate with Windows desktops.


RE: Fuck the EU
By Tamale on 3/1/2007 4:56:43 PM , Rating: 2
I don't understand. Where does the EU get the idea that they can tell microsoft how much their products are worth?

Far as I understand it, if I build something, and it sells at price X, then I'm gonna keep selling it at price X. People don't NEED computers at all... much less windows. Everything has its price.


RE: Fuck the EU
By wien on 3/1/2007 5:14:56 PM , Rating: 2
As has been explained a million times already; because they, after first refusing to license all together, are using the unreasonably high price as a method of preventing other vendors from competing against them in the server market.

If competitors are unable to compete with Microsoft because they have to spend large amounts on licensing what is basically trivial, but proprietary IP from Microsoft, there is no real competition. Microsoft has been using their desktop monopoly to muscle their way into the server market. The EU wants to stop that, and let everyone compete on equal grounds.


RE: Fuck the EU
By euczechguy on 3/2/2007 8:04:59 AM , Rating: 2
u seem to b living a wellfare dream, son...
wake up, money is everywhere and in lousy fucked up 'Ulcerred State of Asserica' Microsoft 'soon-to-be-rejected-from-Europe' ass Bill Gates case is even more relevant....

and fuck moderators if he deletes this!


And I thought I was the only one
By ObscureCaucasian on 3/1/2007 3:32:06 PM , Rating: 2
who thought the EU was being retarded. It's comforting to see that the majority of the people here think the EU is way out of line in their demands. It wouldn't be so bad if this was the first time they've made these threats.

If the EU doesn't think the technologies MS has aren't innovative enough then maybe they should spend more time innovating and less time crying about it.




RE: And I thought I was the only one
By Tamale on 3/1/2007 5:02:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If the EU doesn't think the technologies MS has aren't innovative enough then maybe they should spend more time innovating and less time crying about it.


well said.


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By lplatypus on 3/1/2007 7:06:56 PM , Rating: 2
The EU commission is not complaining that Microsoft technologies are not innovative. They are complaining that Microsoft is cheating in the server market by using their monopoly in the desktop operating systems market: they are blocking competing server systems from interoperating with Windows desktops. They are doing this here by patenting various communication protocols used to talk to Windows desktops, and then charging excessive fees for a patent license. The fees are high not because the patent is innovative but because Microsoft wants to hinder competing servers talking to Windows desktops. Microsoft isn't allowed to behave like this when they have a monopoly in the desktop OS market.

PS: don't think these laws are some weird EU thing... a US court has also found Microsoft guilty of a similar anti-trust offense, relating to web browsers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Micr... .


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By TomZ on 3/3/2007 9:59:13 PM , Rating: 2
That's nice, but who cares?

I mean, really, most of us don't care if these other server companies can make their servers interoperate with Windows. Really, the problem is that the EU anti-trust authorities have no credibility, and I for one would question their view that releasing this IP will help promote competition at all. Their last run-in with Microsoft (Windows 'n' versions) seems to have had zero positive impact for competition. Who is to say the outcome here would be any better?


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By lplatypus on 3/4/2007 7:10:26 AM , Rating: 2
Don't you care if server technology stagnates because there is only one market player who has no reason to innovate? Allowing competition in the server space is good for everyone involved.

I do agree with you though that the credibility of the EU anti-trust authorities is at stake, as their sanctions against Microsoft have not actually achieved much yet. They could be satisfied with a toothless settlement like what happened in the US. We might get another burdensome but useless penalty placed on Microsoft, which is probably worse than the toothless settlement. I'm hoping for the third possible outcome: they might actually force Microsoft to change in a way that solves the problem.


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By TomZ on 3/5/2007 12:29:35 PM , Rating: 2
The presumption in your argument is that there is a lack of competition in the server OS market, which is clearly not the case. There is lots of competion, and Microsoft has neither a monopoly nor is even dominant in that market.

The EU is being needlessly proactive is expecting that, with no intervention, at some point in the future Microsoft might be able to gain a monopoly in server OS leveraging their desktop OS monopoly. But this is only speculation on their part. That, combined with the EU's ineffectiveness in the past in this area, makes me reach the conclusion that this entire situation is a bunch of BS. I think Microsoft is right to not want to play along.


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By lplatypus on 3/5/2007 6:37:44 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, there is still competition today. But what should be the trigger for competition regulators to intervene?

Should the regulators wait until Microsoft has unfairly taken over a market before acting? If Microsoft can grow to dominate the server OS market by producing superior products, then good on them; that's competition in action. But if they grow to dominate the server OS market by locking out competitors with the aid of their desktop monopoly, then the competition regulators have failed.

In this case, Microsoft has specifically acted to hinder competitors in the server software space from interacting with its desktop software, thus gaining an illegal advantage from their desktop monopoly. This seems like a reasonable trigger for regulators to intervene, does it not?


RE: And I thought I was the only one
By TomZ on 3/5/2007 9:08:05 PM , Rating: 2
If you accept the premise that Microsoft acted to hinder competition with its desktop software, then it might be reasonable. But I haven't seen that proved.

In addition, I don't see why Microsoft should be compelled to make it easy and cheap for competitors to interface to Windows. They should have to do the hard work required, e.g., reverse engineering and compatibility testing, just like in any other business where a monopoly doesn't exist. If Microsoft sues competitors for implementing interoperable systems, then go after them for anti-trust.

The demands that the EU is making is not for the purpose of benefitting competition; they are trying to directly benefit competitors. That is where the principle they areapplying is wrong, and where they are overstepping their authority.


How friggen stupid
By darkpaw on 3/1/2007 2:45:07 PM , Rating: 3
They are concerned that the OS has too much security so its harder for others to compete?

Gimmie a break.

First, MS' included security tools are fine as a starting point, but if thats all people are relying on they'll be in a world of hurt soon. Everyone still needs some kind of other AV solution. Secondly, everyones software works just fine on Windows without needing to have trade secrets from MS. I'll take a free AV program from either Avast or AVG (those are both euro even right?) over Windows One Care (not free) any day.

We spent a lot of time discussing the previous EU/MS lawsuit in the law classes I took for my Master's degree and basically as my law prof put it they can either put up with EU's stupid rules or get out. Regardless of how idiotic it is to try and force MS to share its IP for free, if they want to do business in the EU they have to abide by its rules.




RE: How friggen stupid
By Omega215D on 3/1/2007 4:46:52 PM , Rating: 2
Not everyone's software works fine on Windows... I remember Symantec wanted access to off-limit areas of the OS otherwise it wouldn't work.


RE: How friggen stupid
By darkpaw on 3/1/2007 5:46:54 PM , Rating: 2
What they really wanted was to be lazy for the most part. Many of the other security software providers have been able to do just fine with releasing Vista software without having kernal access (and MS' av software doesn't haven't that access either so its not an unfair competition thing).

Basically, Symantec and McAffee are upset because they have to come up with some new ideas on how to protect the OS without using kernal hooks (in the 64bit version specifically). I've been using Avast on my Vista test machine since at least beta 2 though and that works just fine.


They should just pull out
By dgingeri on 3/1/2007 5:43:55 PM , Rating: 2
MS should just stop selling to Europe entirely. that whole continent is just going to economically collapse in about another 50 years anyway. MS is not going to make any money. Why not hasten that a little bit? Imagine nobody in Europe allowed to buy a new Windows PC or get any updates to existing ones. MS could not be accused of running a monopoly in that case.




RE: They should just pull out
By just4U on 3/2/2007 12:12:16 AM , Rating: 3
Pulling out really wouldn't be a option. Not only would they be likely to see lawsuits because of that (damned if you do and damned if you don't)they'd also likely see a viable competitor rise up from it.

The strength of Microsoft is that there is nothing out there that comparer's to it. If you take it away .. something inevitably has to come along to replace it.

Microsoft is like a snowball rolling down a hill. As it picks up momentum it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. I find it sorta funny that they are constantly being fined and sued for monopolistic practices when in reality it's a non issue. They left monopolies in the dust during the 90s.. I am not even sure if there is a classification for what they are now. Closest word i can come up with is a ...

necessity.

I see no reasons for the fines or the ultimatum(s) as MS is clearly willing to sit down and iron out a deal. It's a give and take scenario here and fines should only come into play when Microsoft walks away from the bargaining table.


RE: They should just pull out
By Oobu on 3/3/2007 2:07:21 AM , Rating: 2
Well said.


Why Vista is so expensive in Europe...
By giantpandaman2 on 3/1/2007 2:14:21 PM , Rating: 3
I have no facts to back this up, but it just seems practical that the EU Fine "Tax" is one of the reasons why Vista is more expensive in Europe. Microsoft has to make up for the higher cost of doing business in Europe somehow. Of course, I'm not saying it's the only reason, different tax structures etc., just would seem to be a fairly big one.




By archcommus on 3/1/2007 2:18:42 PM , Rating: 3
Not to mention all the extra labor costs that have to go into developing the stupid "N" versions.


Biased?
By Mitch101 on 3/1/2007 3:20:49 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm. Did they do the same with the new Macs or OSX?

Howard Stern went through this time and time again and you have to ask yourself why do you listen when you have the option to turn to another station. You have options.

Here the EU has the same problem so they wont buy into a Microsoft license. They dont have to. Go develop for the MAC or Linux if you dont like the costs.

Has anyone complained to the EU that developing for Sony's PS3 is too costly and wants it opened up?

The EU is biased towards Microsoft and I certainly cant blame Microsoft for jacking up the prices if the EU is only going to cause problems every time they release or do something someone isnt happy with.

The EU should start that Linux revolution I hear so much about but never see. Otherwise quit whining.

I also think someone needs to investigate the EU because Im thinking there is more to the story than the EU thinks. I have a feeling more is going on in the background if you know what I mean.




RE: Biased?
By Live on 3/1/2007 4:15:10 PM , Rating: 2
Neither of the products or companies you mention have any monopolistic powers. So they can do much more then you can if you are a monopoly. Most if not all economist agree that this is a good thing. Why would you go after companies that are not monopolies? They don’t harm the economy. They compete which is a good thing. You can design games that doesn’t work for the PS3 and have a reasonable chance of competing. Plenty of companies do. Microsoft is one good example :)
You have no chance to compete with server software that can’t communicate with windows.

Monopolistic powers are bad for the economy since it leads to higher prices and lower supply. Free market and monopoly doesn't go together. A company with monopolistic powers have no reason to do anything about it themselves since they profit from it. So someone else must. This is basic economic theory.


RE: Biased?
By Omega215D on 3/1/2007 4:45:00 PM , Rating: 2
Well I think this has to do with how cheap a Windows PC is nowadays compared to a Apple Mac PC. Even an iMac is getting pretty far out of reach in terms of pricing.

Since I'm not going be biased here I'll mention the fact that the EU is going after Apple for their iTunes scheme.


That's sad
By jamesss on 3/2/2007 8:05:07 AM , Rating: 2
Is this really a website for educated IT and electronics guys ? All along this thread I didn't see a single post actually discussing the point of the news without some nationalist bias.

I feel really bad about the sad vision americans seem to have for Europe (and particularly France). Are you disappointed that we don't share all your values and ways of doing things ? Be open minded and not judge people without knowing them.

By the way, you could check the WEF stats for global competitiveness (or any interesting subjects), it's interesting.




RE: That's sad
By housecat on 3/2/2007 9:16:28 AM , Rating: 2
Thats because the root of this entire issue is anti-Americanism. Most of us can see that, which is why the conversation has focused there.
Its applaudable that the majority of these guys can see that and will stickup for Microsoft, as plenty of people "hate" MS even in the US.
Goes to show, WE can hate on OUR boys.. but dont YOU hate on our boys!


RE: That's sad
By FITCamaro on 3/5/2007 5:51:27 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. It's not even funny how much anti-Americanism there is in the world today. There are far more companies doing far worse things than Microsoft but its the only company they're really going after. Why? Because its an American company who has billions of dollars to try and exploit.


Hmmm
By splines on 3/3/2007 6:18:20 AM , Rating: 1
I'm intrigued by the rise of Eugenics and Social Darwinism in the minds of those who are comfortable economically. A lot of younger people with secure jobs and good prospects have seemingly embraced free-market capitalism, and the privatisation of pretty much everything as some sort of magic pill.

Is this a reaction to a change in circumstances? Those of you with College or University degrees would probably remember days when you had absolutely no cash, and not much chance of getting any in the forseeable future without calling parents or similar, irrespective of whether you had a job at the same time. Yet at the end of the day, you still got your degree, and still got a good job. The cost bourne by your parents paid off, in other words.

So why the sudden interest in amateur economic analysis? You suddenly think that because your lives are NOW comfortable, that you should cut off those who will come after you? That the weak should pass out of knowledge, those who you consider a burden to simply not be?

Bullshit. We've all had bad times, and if you haven't, you don't deserve to cast opinions on those less fortunate. You can shut the hell up, and wait until it happens to YOU. Let's see if your Mises-loving asses will be advantaged by all your conjecture on the strengths of a free market. Probably not, because you'll be too worried about how you're going to EAT.

Social programs cost money. Yes, your money and mine. But I absolutely support them. I have medical insurance, a good job and require no hand-outs or social welfare from the state. But I do appreciate the fact that there are some born into circumstance, culture or by the quirks of genetics and upbringing that will not do as well as I. Do I say that these people are a drag factor, and should be cut free? Sink or swim? No.

What you social darwinists always seem to forget is that we're somewhat more ORGANISED than animals. We have culture and communication heretowith unidentified in any other species. If anything, we've broken the normal rules of environment and nature. But to listen to some of you, we should still follow those principles in our societies. Bullshit. We have a duty to our fellow people. There are plenty who break free of their barriers and go on to lead productive lives. You would have it that these people never had a chance to begin with.

Your lies keep you comfortable, make your fear more benign to others. You don't have to name people or burn crosses. But by the powers of your so-called economics, you'd still like them gone. You don't embrace freedoms, learning or cultural acceptance unless it's on YOUR terms, when YOU feel like it. And all of this trickles down into your views on everything.

You would have those you have deemed unworthy removed to further your own lives.

You're sick. You've got that large brain and an apparent capacity for empathy and understanding, but you choose to shut that off in some sort of relentless pursuit of self-advancement. I'm not asking you to spare a thought for those less fortunate, I'm simply asking you to actually admit they EXIST beyond your diatribes. Hell, try talking to them.




RE: Hmmm
By EastCoast on 3/3/2007 9:34:54 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, that was a powerful post.
Bravo


RE: Hmmm
By zaphikel on 3/5/2007 5:09:03 AM , Rating: 2
very well spoken. quite a few people within these boards seem to forget that there is always a darker side to society. not to mention that 90% of the world would probably be rather happy to live in the USA or EU.

This argument EU vs. USA is so sickening. Be happy that you live in one of this countries and not somewhere in the middle of africa, wondering where your next meal will come from.


Yeah
By ilovecf on 3/5/2007 3:34:45 AM , Rating: 1
Finally, some1 understanding that microsoft is really some dirtbags... I have been reading, and doing alot of IT, windows just suck, YES it does..

I got 2 computers with linux, microsoft have monopol on OS, and read about microsoft wanna make windows from bios aswell, just to prevent any1 installing linux ?, hmm.. i want less microsoft..

i use like more time protecting my windows computer than i use on gaming, my linux computer does what i say it should do, not anything else, had 480 days uptime on it aswell, my record on my windows comp is 96 days, thats nothing compared to my linux computer running heavy server applications/services, my windows computer only ran teamspeak server..

EU is doing a quite good thing, but dont agree to everything they does, but well, they doesnt allow microsoft to just win in a court =) as they do in usa..

Well, take this for an instance, windows vista.. on my laptop..

I915 video card, cant run aero, in beta, i can registry hack and activate it, no issues at all, in linux, beryl outta the box with terrible drivers :)

Microsoft co-op with stupid company's and agree to make vista req a new computer, why not do as linux, make it run on whatever you want, and not forcing ppl to go for the new,
Soon cant you use windows XP and get the support...

I want a more free software world, more open source




RE: Yeah
By FITCamaro on 3/5/2007 1:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
Do you work for free? Me neither.

When you do, then you can say everything should be free.


RE: Yeah
By staypuff69 on 3/7/2007 1:36:10 AM , Rating: 2
Dood chill out did you fail your grammar class this week???

I've tried Linux on 3 of my computers and you know what??? unless i spend countless hours "learning" a comp language and developing my own drivers they won't work with ANY OF MY VID CARDS..... a "known" flaw with linux.... oh I've also never had windows crash on me and i do tons of vid encoding etc. and you know what Mr. I want everything free guy..... LINUX HAS CRASHED ON ME 6 TIMES... WOOT... so much for penguins...


This is pathetic
By jazzboy on 3/1/2007 6:23:19 PM , Rating: 2
As someone who is from the UK, I am sick and tired of the EU and the sooner we get out the better IMO. Instead of being an organisation to assist trading amongst Europe (as was the original plan), it's become an organisation about control and bashing the successful.

People do have a choice. Instead of bashing MS, perhaps the EU should moan at its own population for not bothering to be informed about other choices.

And don't even get me started about EU and Vista security - seems like they want Microsoft to make it less secure, which then of course gives them a chance a few years later to fine MS again for not making Vista secure enough.




RE: This is pathetic
By FITCamaro on 3/5/2007 1:54:02 PM , Rating: 2
Great comment from someone who's in the EU. I'm personally sick of it myself. I don't see them charging Apple with their shit being proprietary. How bout they fine them for people not being allowed to use the OS on whatever hardware they want? Oh wait, Apple doesn't have the billions of dollars necessary for the EU to care about them.

Personally, as an American, I say Microsoft tells the EU to f*** off and the US pull out the UN as well.

Microsoft, give the EU the shaft and continue making your product as you see fit. If they don't like it as is, then they can just not buy it, outlaw its use in Europe, and let you focus on other important matters. Of course all of Europe will use it anyway, since like the European members of the UN(except Britain), the EU is nothing but a bunch of idiots who are all talk and no walk.


EU Vs US
By Kevil on 3/2/2007 10:05:26 AM , Rating: 2
Why does this type of news item resort to an EU Vs US debate, with some twerp (from either US or EU) posting completely uneducated drivel.




RE: EU Vs US
By GI2K on 3/3/2007 6:07:27 AM , Rating: 2
A lot of US very little of EU...


It's always quite amazing...
By Tango on 3/6/2007 2:03:58 AM , Rating: 2
... how these topics always degenerate into a US Vs. EU series of rants. Incredible what popular low-quality media can do to people in less then 4 years.

To address the amount of profanities people (from both sides of the debate) have been posting here one would need several weeks. Most people should try to be a little bit more rational and maybe pick up a couple of Economics courses before feeling free to debate about economic policies and growth models.

As a person who lives 6 months/year in the EU and 6 months/year in the US I feel most people comparing the two areas never saw the other one.

The differences between the two economic systems are so little one could argue there is no theoretical distance between them. The rest is irrational nationalism. Those differences are also the direct result of people choices and ideological priorities.

Just a few things I keep reading a lot on random internet Fora that always surprise me:

Myth One: The EU is lagging in innovation and competitiveness.
Fact: From the World Economic Forum Competitiveness Index Report 2007 - Global Competitiveness Index:
1) Switzerland
2) Finland
3) Sweden
4) Denmark
5) Singapore
6) USA
7) Japan
8) Germany
9) Netherlands
10) UK

Myth Two: The EU has unemployment rate of 20%
Fact From the CIA World Fact book (2006):
EU Unemployment Rate (EU-27): 8.8%
US Unemployment Rate: 4.6%

Also, contrary to what many people in this thread seem to think, anybody familiar with the way unemployment is calculated in the US and the EU will tell you it's the US method that tends to underestimate employment, not the opposite. Although even factoring that EU unemployment would still be higher.

Myth Three: The EU wants to take your Freedom away:
Fact: From the Heritage Foundation - Economic Freedom Index (2006)
4)Luxembourg
5) Ireland 3.25
6) Estonia 3.2
7) USA 3.2
8) Denmark 3.2
9) UK 3.15
11) Netherlands 3.15
12) Sweden 3.10
13) Finland 3.10

That is, statistically insignificant.

Myth Four: The EU has a Socialist economic system where government transfers for social security take account for a huge share of GDP
Fact: From GECD Historical Statistics (1990-2000 period)
Social security expenditure as % of GDP

1) Sweden 20.9%
2) Finland 20.8%
3) Netherlands
4) Denmark
5) Austria
6) Italy
7) France 18.2%
8) Germany
11) UK 14.5%
13) United States 12.6%
15) Ireland 11.2%

Does the difference between France, Germany,UK and the US look huge? It doesn't to me, especially after considering fixed costs in maintaining a social security system.

Myths about the Health-care sectors?
Life expectancy at birth (2006):
1) Andorra
8) Sweden 80.51
14) Italy 79.81
16) France
19) Spain
20) Norway
25) Greece
34) Germany 78.8
38) UK
39) Finland 79.73
43) USA 77.85

Per capita government expenditure on health (US $):

5) USA 2,368
7) Germany 2,212
8) Sweden 2,144
10) France 2,080
19) Italy 1,639
21) Finland 1,470

Damn.. it looks like the US government spends more on health-care than those Socialist Finnish guys... impressive even more if you consider the US dollar depreciation in the last years... the US must be some kind of communist country, right?

The point here is Microsoft has a quasi-monopoly status in the software market. The EU sees potential for market distortions from this. Microsoft happens to be American, but the EU had the same stance against a lot of EU companies as well, and in much more critical sectors (from a strategic perspective) such as agriculture and steel.

Don't turn everything into a nationalist rant, and have a look at some data before jumping to conclusions based on random mythology.

(p.s. No, I've not a pro-EU bias. In fact, most of EU legislation is utterly terrible. But this has nothing ado with what some posters have been talking about in this thread.)




By JoeBanana on 3/6/2007 1:18:18 PM , Rating: 2
It's nice too see an objective post. I hate to see so many people calling names at each other(retarded etc.).
I am from EU and I know a lot of people from US via internet and they are all friendly and mannered. If you say things like EU is retarded you only throw bad light on your country.(vice versa)

Sorry for my English:D


Where is the U.S. government in all this?
By thatguy39 on 3/6/2007 1:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
Look I'm not one who thinks you should bully other people just because you can, but there comes a point when you have to throw your weight around, ESPECIALLY when someone else has beat you to it.

Microsoft is one of Americas greatest companies and it's a shame to see the EU fine them just because they don't understand the computer industry and/or want to make it easier for European companies to compete with the American companies who have such a dominate lead.

When they fine Microsoft for its antitrust claiming Microsoft ain't fair, what they're really saying is the U.S. lead in the computer industry ain't fair!

So I get to my point... where is the U.S. government to show that two can play this game???

It looks like the EU wants nothing less than Microsoft to reveal more vital parts of its source code which could be suicide for the company.

Do we have such a impotent and distracted government that were going to let one of our greatest companies be raped by the EU???




By JoeBanana on 3/6/2007 1:27:58 PM , Rating: 2
So you are saying EU shouldn't fine MS just because it's one of the greatest US company? Even if MS is quilty?? Have you done any research or are you just one of them EU vs US people :D


uSoft
By Oregonian2 on 3/1/2007 5:35:31 PM , Rating: 2
Off hand, it appears to boil down to the fact that Microsoft isn't sufficiently financing their competitors. Simple as that.




eu ha
By whalenapp81 on 3/1/2007 5:36:26 PM , Rating: 2
lol. the eu is very capitalistic indeed, they have found a way to make money, by sueing american companies, i think it funny




Yeah, damn the EU!
By Toebot on 3/2/2007 1:25:37 AM , Rating: 2
Who are they to try and control our unregulated monopolies. Bomb 'em, back to the Stone Age, don't need no computers to hunt rats with a stick. Damn all the foreigners.




See-I am doing my Job.
By crystal clear on 3/2/2007 11:08:03 PM , Rating: 1
"EU Commissioner Neelie Kroes" has her perfomance judged on the basis of "the amount of Fines she slaps on companies".

The more the better,just like traffic cops get you for
traffic rules violations.

Then she gets herself some "publicity" -SEE I AM DOING JOB.




RE: See-I am doing my Job.
By crystal clear on 3/2/2007 11:10:52 PM , Rating: 1
"SEE I AM DOING JOB"

Should read-SEE I AM DOING MY JOB


the secret
By AntDX316 on 3/8/2007 7:00:09 AM , Rating: 2
to pay for the war fees and the life insurance of the fallen soldiers in iraq of the UK military




By strikertp on 3/1/2007 3:42:16 PM , Rating: 3
Just ignore the fact that Bill Gates is undoubtedly the greatest philanthropist of our time


By rdeegvainl on 3/1/2007 4:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/bio....
Philanthropy is also important to Gates. He and his wife, Melinda, have endowed a foundation with more than $28.8 billion (as of January 2005) to support philanthropic initiatives in the areas of global health and learning, with the hope that in the 21st century, advances in these critical areas will be available for all people.
From the microsoft website, but still valid. Before people go making personal attacks on a person's character, they should find out what they are really like.


By AntiV6 on 3/1/2007 4:05:10 PM , Rating: 2
Wasn't the EU complaining about Microsoft including windows media player and not like real one or something a wile ago?

Also, the EU is/was whining about how Google is a monopoly. Germany and France are "trying" to make another search engine to compete...

I'm still waiting for them to deliver. [/endsarcasm]


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