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European Commission said a full investigation may follow

Just when we think that Blu-ray and HD DVD will start showing up in mass production, the two formats enter into more trouble, this time with the European Commission. According to reports, the European Commission believes that the companies that are backing each format may have licensing terms that breach European competition rules. The report said that the European Commission launched an unofficial antitrust probe this month.

Toshiba, the leading company behind HD DVD and Sony the leading company behind Blu-ray both received letters from the European Commission earlier this month. According to a European Commission representative, "we sent a letter earlier this month to the makers of HD DVD and Blu-ray to request information about licensing." Toshiba did not respond to inquiries but Sony confirmed that it did receive a letter from the European Commission.

The European Commission is still waiting for all replies to come back. It will then decide whether or not to pursue a full anti-trust probe. A representative from Sony told reporters that "there are no indications of any complaint, nor of any antitrust concerns on the part of the Commission or anyone else."

Sony's Blu-ray format has been facing a barrage of issues since the start of the year. Sony's own Blu-ray players have been suffering from continual delays. According to earlier reports, Sony will be shipping its first Blu-ray player will be shipping only slightly ahead of its PlayStation 3 console -- currently scheduled for November 17th. On the HD DVD side, Toshiba announced earlier that it would be shipping its HD DVD players at a loss to gain a head start.

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Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/28/2006 9:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
I wish Neelie Kroes and her bunch of loonies would take a daytrip somewhere and accidentally drive over a cliff. Honestly, i'm sick and tired of the bickering and petty thuggery that the EU has sunk to. Living in the UK, we only have to put up with so much, but that we have to put up with ANY of it is bad enough. I say secede from the EU like most people in the country want us to do, put spitfires on the back of the £10 note and Lancaster Bombers on the back of £20 notes, then tell the EU where to shove it - we can make our own mind up thank you very much! GRR!




RE: Personally...
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 9:26:45 PM , Rating: 2
It's very clear how you make up your own minds. Whatever US says you do. Awesome.

If I had any saying GB should never been let into EU. Just stick to your own crap, suck up to US even more because you have no validity in world saying anyways anymore.


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/28/2006 9:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
What kind of shite are you spouting now?

The UK has one of the largest economies in the world, and still has one of the largest militaries in the world. Regardless of what Teflon Tone does, it does NOT reflect the opinion of the general public. NEed i remind you that he was voted in thanks to the lowest voter turnouts since the end of the first world war, and NOT because we all thought he was a wonderful person.

Take your EU and stick it where the sun doesnt shine. At least the US doesnt whine and whinge half as much as you lot!


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:49:01 PM , Rating: 1
The UK economy is virtually tied with the French one and lower than the German one, and in GDP per capita there’s like 9 EU countries ahead of you guys… Anyway if you are that happy with your lap dog job you can move away, I sure wont stop ya.


RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:58:20 PM , Rating: 2
I wish Neelie Kroes and her bunch of loonies would take a daytrip somewhere and accidentally drive over a cliff. Honestly, i'm sick and tired of the bickering and petty thuggery that the EU has sunk to. Living in the UK, we only have to put up with so much, but that we have to put up with ANY of it is bad enough. I say secede from the EU like most people in the country want us to do, put spitfires on the back of the £10 note and Lancaster Bombers on the back of £20 notes, then tell the EU where to shove it - we can make our own mind up thank you very much! GRR!

please join the BNP. They like idiots like you - a fellow UK citizen (from the north, i might add)


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/29/2006 10:25:51 PM , Rating: 2
Oddly enough, i'm not a racist turd like Nick Griffin or any of his lunatic fringe. I am however, all for the EU being put in the toilet bowl, where it belongs. Have you ever been to other European countries and heard the general populace complain about how shite the EU is? No? Well, get on a ferry and go to france or the Netherlands. Or you could also speak to the Nordic countries that are officially part of Europe, but dont like the idea of the EU.

Just because i have an aversion to being ruled by brussels and being told what i can and cant do by a bunch of raving lefty loonies, does NOT make me a candidate, nor a voter of, the BNP.

And as for you being from the north, well the less said about that the better...


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:54:17 PM , Rating: 2
Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU, besides the French dream of a united Europe since a long time...


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:03:24 AM , Rating: 2
> "Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU..."

If you've never heard the French complain about the EU, then not only have you never been to France, but you've never read a newspaper either:

quote:
French voters have overwhelmingly rejected the European Union's proposed constitution in a key referendum....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4592243.st...

quote:
as far as he is concerned, the [French way of life] is under siege -- from bureaucrats in Paris and Brussels with their regulations and high taxes, and from foreign countries whose cheap products and low-waged workers threaten French industries and jobs....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...



RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
This is more to do with French political culture and the deep divide between those who live in cities and those living in more rural areas.

Its a more complex issue than you would think, however, large farming subsidies usually tips the balance in favour of the EU in France. I would think the rejection of the EU constitution was something to do with this, although i dont have these sorts of facts to hand.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 4:54:22 PM , Rating: 2
Dude I could bet I know far more French people than you do... and to your information I live 5 min away from France, so not only I read/watch the French news I also speak with real people.

What I said is 100% true and NOTHING you can say will ever change it.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 6:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
> "What I said is 100% true and NOTHING you can say will ever change it. "

It's not what I say that counts-- its what the French people say. And many of them are quite upset with the EU. To say that "no French speak against the EU" is total rubbish.

A few quotes:


quote:
France's [rejection of the EU Constition] has plunged the European Union into political crisis...

To many French workers, the prospect of thousands of low-paid, low-taxed and lightly regulated Czechs and Poles setting up in competition is proof that the EU has been hijacked by "Anglo-Saxon" free-marketeers and their acolytes from Eastern Europe....


quote:
the French, already upset by their diminished influence in a union of 25 members, would tend to oppose Turkey's ascension...


quote:
Le Monde, took up the doom-saying with a front-page headline reading "Europe -- why France is losing influence in Brussels...Le Figaro ran editorials from 40 top businessmen, politicians, and academics, most of whom expressed some measure of discontent with France's current positoin within the EU...


quote:
With the victory for the `non' vote — 55 per cent to 45 per cent, the founder and pillar of the EU [France] turned its back on half a century of neo-European history...



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:21:13 PM , Rating: 2
I NEVER said no French is upset with the EU... man stop reading what's not there just for the sake of posting something.

Just so I spare you of new crappy post I was speaking of the French folks I know and not of all the French.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 8:18:35 PM , Rating: 1
> "I NEVER said no French is upset with the EU... I was speaking of the French folks I know "

Well, let's see what was said, shall we? In respond to a poster's statement of, "Have you ever been to other European countries and heard the general populace complain about how shite the EU is? No? Well, get on a ferry and go to france...", you replied "Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU".

So either you were implying the original poster was incorrect, or you were making obtuse, irrelevant remarks just for the sake of being argumentative So which one is it?

Given you didn't begin your backpedalling until I stepped in with overwhelming evidence of French discontent with the EU, I think we already know the answer.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 10:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
What he said was based on his personal experience and I shared my experience that is quite the opposite of his own, generalizing from what he heard or what I hear on my everyday life is completely absurd.

What you pointed doesn’t support what he said either, there’s plenty of people complaining about some of the EU doings including in Spain and other member states, however that doesn’t mean they are against the EU, if most French folks were against the EU they had a good opportunity a couple years back when a candidate to the presidency had an anti-EU slogans and guess what he didn’t won...


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/30/2006 6:32:52 PM , Rating: 2
Well for your information, Mr Superior, i lived there from 2001 to 2004, so i know a fairly large amount of french people myself. All of them hate the EU and think its a bad idea and a threat to their way of life. Pwned, btw.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
Only 3 years ? man not enough compared to my 8 and still counting... 2001 to 2004 ? man you know we are in 200 6 don't you?...


RE: Personally...
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 8:33:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Only 3 years ? man not enough compared to my 8 and still counting... 2001 to 2004 ? man you know we are in 200 6 don't you?...

Sheesh, now living there for 3-4 years isn't good enough for you either? I think you're just being petty.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 9:06:54 PM , Rating: 2
Not good enough to pretend he knows more than I do...


RE: Personally...
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 9:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not good enough to pretend he knows more than I do...

Yes, but it is clear that in your view, nobody knows more than you do.

j/k - you kind of invited that.


RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/30/2006 10:47:31 AM , Rating: 2
I think you should possibly move to the US.

Oh, and rather than using the UKIP manifesto as a source of information have a look at some independant sources.

I actually used to think a bit like this but as I have learnt more about the EU (and seen it in action, i might add) my opinion has changed, indeed, it is hard to argue against a lot of propsals they put forward, especially regarding things like sausages etc.


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/30/2006 6:39:53 PM , Rating: 2
Who in the hell would want to live in an even more cracked country? If an idiot can be voted into office by some rediculous system rather than by the majority vote....no thanks.

UKIP? No thanks, they're not even a serious political party, nor is Veritas for that matter. Go on, get out there and ask as many people in the general public what they think of the EU - i bet you any amount of money that at least 8 out of 10 of them will tell you it's crap and they want nothing to do with it. Who would? Do you want to be ruled by bureaucrats from brussels? Do you want to be told what you can and cant do in your own country by a German, Italian, Spaniard, or indeed, anyone else that doesnt actually live here?

The UK has no place in the EU, this country has gone down the toilet thanks to them, and the massive amount of money given to the EU by this country should be spent by us, ON US, not subsidising some Spanish farmer.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:27:57 PM , Rating: 2
Shut up Germany, France and even Italy gives more money than the UK... so cry me a river.
And Spain is right after the UK on the list.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/06, Rating: 0
RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 10:02:32 PM , Rating: 2
So what if Spain is at the top of the list?... the funding is discussed by ALL the EU member states and they may get money today but in the future it will be them to pay for others... I’m pretty sure it’s the same case in the US.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:33:39 AM , Rating: 1
> "So what if Spain is at the top of the list?... "

You missed my question. Are you personally from Spain? Proper answers here are "yes", "no", or "I refuse to answer on the grounds of shame over my national heritage".


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 11:34:13 AM , Rating: 2
No, I'm not from Spain... now what will you do ?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 12:22:43 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, I'm not from Spain... now what will you do ? "

Why, nothing at all of course. I had tentatively pegged you as Spanish or Portugese...but you obviously can conceal your national origin if you wish. Most people are proud of it, but I'm sure you have your reasons.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 6:34:32 PM , Rating: 2
I'm Portuguese, now I’m interest to know what that matters to you.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 7:17:11 PM , Rating: 2
> "I'm Portuguese, now I’m interest to know what that matters to you."

Nothing-- except that it more than explains your support of the EU. Portugal is one of the largest net recipients of funds from the EU budget. Of the 15 original members, 11 contribute more to the EU in taxes than they receive in fudning. Four receive more...Portugal, Greece, and Spain being the largest offenders.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 7:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Like I thought... you had to make a rather crappy statement...

It doesn’t explains ANYTHING I defend the EU but so does many other EU citizens including German, French and others, I've also supported the enlargement of the EU to other counties that are currently in a far worst position than Portugal and this implies Portugal will start receiving less and less as the time goes by, the EU is not just a question of money, but feel free to think that the EU is only defended by Spanish, Portuguese and Greek folks, and that the paying countries are only on the EU cause we force them to be here.

Also know that this is the internet I could very well say that I was French or German and pawn you... damn I almost regret to have given you the pleasure of posting a crappy insinuation again.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:56:52 PM , Rating: 1
> "feel free to think that the EU is only defended by Spanish, Portuguese and Greek folks..."

I said no such thing. The EU has its defenders in all member nations. However, there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU. Nations like the U.K. and the Netherlands are not nearly as supportive as those in Spain and Portugal.

Why? It's the money, honey. Some people are motivated by a dream for a united Europe...others simply see the EU as a free lunch. Everyone has different reasons...and in the nations that foot the majority of the bill, public discontent is higher.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 7:42:38 AM , Rating: 2
That's only on your head, example Portugal is yet to sign the EU constitution and Germany the country that pays the most as already accepted it along with a bunch of other paying countries like Italy, Belgium, Austria... and that’s a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country, like I told you before the EU is not just about money and with the money comes a bunch of rules that may displease a lot of people... in other words there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU and I’m not sure money is the strongest of them.

Anyway I’m not the average guy, I’m a single guy so stop trying to change your statement, the fact that I’m Portuguese doesn’t tell you ANYTHING at all about my EU opinion, and to your information I defend far more the EU than the average Portuguese, Spanish or other.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 8:49:18 AM , Rating: 2
> "and that’s a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country"

I realize English isn't your primary language, but you may want to more carefully read my posts. I said nothing of the sort.

> "in other words there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU "

Which is exactly what I said myself. Money is merely one of those factors. But its not a "minor" factor in by any means. If you read the polls, interviews with citizens, and statements of certain politicians, its very clear. The economic costs and benefits of EU membership are a primary consideration. Period.

> "to your information I defend far more the EU than the average Portuguese, Spanish or other"

So you admit most Europeans don't support the EU nearly as much as you do? Odd, since you were arguing just the opposite all through this thread.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 9:17:05 AM , Rating: 2
"I realize English isn't your primary language"
here here now we are going as low as this?... man I read English and understand it just like the average American or even better.

You didn’t say money alone however you only speak of money, are we now to figure out that you took other factors into account...

"Which is exactly what I said myself."
I don’t see where you mention other factors besides money.

"But its not a "minor" factor in by any means."
I never said it was, I said I wasn’t sure money was the most relevant of the factors.

"The economic costs and benefits of EU membership are a primary consideration. Period."
And so is the power the EU has over the country and plenty of other factors... actually the main concern of the citizens from France, Germany and other countries is the free transit of the EU citizens, this is what people feared the most with the enlargement to the new members.

"Odd, since you were arguing just the opposite all through this thread."
Wrong, I never pretended that most EU citizens support the EU as much as I do, I say most EU citizens support the EU, that doesn’t imply they support as much as me let along more than I do.

Interesting you completely overlooked the fact the German already accepted the EU constitution...

And BTW how about putting forth some sources for your “strong relation” between the money a country gets and the EU support?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 10:08:52 AM , Rating: 2
> "man I read English and understand it just like the average American or even better. "

Then why do you continually misinterpret the most plain remarks? I clearly stated the following, "Some people are motivated by a dream for a united Europe...others simply see the EU as a free lunch. Everyone has different reasons..." To which you replied, " a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country...there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU "

Either you've having trouble understanding my remarks, or you're intentionally twisting them. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was accidental. Was I wrong to do so?

> "Interesting you completely overlooked the fact the German already accepted the EU constitution... "

So? Just last year, Germany blew a large hole in the rules governing the Euro, by ignoring the budget deficit limits set by the Maastricht Treaty. It also sidelined the plan for a common European market for services. Finally, after Chancellor Schröder put through labor reforms intended to align the German market closer with the EU, he lost popular support, and had to stand down in favor of Merkel.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 12:19:01 PM , Rating: 2
Yes you said that and just before you said "there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU" later on you say ”in the nations that foot the majority of the bill, public discontent is higher”, hence you clearly make a link between the support of each country and how much money they get or pay, whereas you base your whole EU support idea on money alone, I replied that money is just one of the factors and I doubt its one of the most important ones. Now if you admit that there are many other factors just as important as money if not more, I don’t see any reason to keep this going on.

About Germany, exactly, it seems I’m getting you to understand that money is not the only factor, and you even support me when you said “after Chancellor Schröder put through labor reforms intended to align the German market closer with the EU, he lost popular support” see he lost popular support not cause Spain was getting money but cause the German economy was forced by the EU to change... do you think the Germans back then were more concerned about how their money was being used and how much they paid or by the rules the EU imposes to them?... and it’s the same in even Portugal, people are way more concerned about the rules the EU brings than by the money.

Anyway again any sources about the EU support level by country and what concerns them the most? after all you make the affirmation that Spain, Portugal and Greece were the countries supporting the EU the most and that money was the reason they supported the EU, now how about backing it up...


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 1:08:10 PM , Rating: 2
> "Yes you said that and just before you said "there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU"

Do you not understand the meaning of the word "correlation"? Money is a factor in the level of support-- which you yourself admit. It's not the sole factor, and my statement does not imply it is.

> Schröder...lost popular support” see he lost popular support not cause Spain was getting money but cause the German economy was forced by the EU to change...

And that change caused a slump in the economy. And that slump cost people money, and concerned them about losing additional sums in the future. As you see-- its about money.

Similarly with Germany's sidelining of the common services market for the EU. German workers felt it would cut their salaries. Again-- money. Not just the money they pay the EU directly...but the monetary benefits of their EU membership.







RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 5:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
“It's not the sole factor, and my statement does not imply it is.”
Your statement implies that it’s the strongest one and that others count for nothing, I still want the sources I asked for, you made a quite a big statement there for someone that doesn’t even live in the EU, so I really want to see your sources.

“And that change caused a slump in the economy. And that slump cost people money, and concerned them about losing additional sums in the future. As you see-- its about money.”
Sources? sources that link the EU and a slump on the Germany economy.

“German workers felt it would cut their salaries.”
Sources?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 6:12:34 PM , Rating: 2
> "Your statement implies that it’s the strongest one and that others count for nothing..."

Again, I can only conclude that either you don't understand plain English, or you intentionally wish to distort the meaning of my remarks. When you tell which of these two is motivating you, I'll provide the references you request. Until then, might I suggest this?

www.onlinedictionary.com


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 6:40:36 PM , Rating: 2
It's not me that needs a dictionary it's you... it's ok with me though, you made a rather pathetic statement that now you cant back up and so you try to twist it, errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum...

And where are the sources of all your statements, I mean you come here talk big and you don’t even put your sources forth... it doesn’t bother you to ask others for sources when it suits you but when the others ask you the same you run away... So for as long as you don’t give me your sources, I’ll keep thinking you pulled all what you said out of your butt, just for the sake of arguing.


RE: Personally...
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:39:03 AM , Rating: 2
exactly...
i know, i shouldnt be complaining and stuff, cuz i come from Czech republic, but we also give some money (and recieve for sure) but when we reach the UK or France level, we´ll be participating much more on the European economy...


What is up with the EU?
By breethon on 7/28/2006 5:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
Do they need money that bad that they have to keep dipping in companies pockets? IT is getting kind of ridiculous. It is getting to the point, where I would skip launches in the EU. By the time you pay all the legal fees and the "fines" they come up with, you have to be losing money. M$ should pull vista from them and let them stay with XP or LINUX. It is getting old. It is as bad as the moron who sued Mcdonalds because they spilled THEIR coffee on THEMSELVES, and won because the cup didn't say "caution, it is hot." Keep it on trucking US....ooops....I mean EU...




RE: What is up with the EU?
By mino on 7/28/2006 6:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
You have no idea how much money M$ makes in EU.

just try to take into account the fact that the EU's economy is about as big as US one.

IMHO in general M$ makes around 20-33% of their money in EU.

M$: If you don't obey us we will not launch/sell Vista/Office07 in EU!
EU: Do as you choose.

EU(behind the scenes): Heard on that M4's move? Do those idiots really think they can afford that? Well we'll see.

2yrs later
M$: WTF, why is our revenue going down, tho f*kin EU linux bastards! We have to move the battle to their land ! Fast !
EU: Do as you choose. However this time you're gonna open-source your stuff, we are not where we were 2yrs ago.
M$: grrrrrr


RE: What is up with the EU?
By djcameron on 7/28/2006 7:41:02 PM , Rating: 2
The EU economy might be nearly as large as the US economy, but the EU has 50% more people. So, obviously, the average EU resident is far less productive.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Clauzii on 7/29/2006 9:24:03 AM , Rating: 2
The newest members of EU, the eastern countries in Europe, do not have a GDP compared to the western part of Europe, therefore the average GDP/capacita is lower.

It takes time to level out the unequalities of the past...


RE: What is up with the EU?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:55:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It takes time to level out the unequalities of the past...

As if that is some kind of noble goal. That is precisely the goal of socialism and communism, not capatalism. Last I checked, the EU was aiming for capitalism and democracy. Good luck with that.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:53:04 PM , Rating: 2
No its the goal of advanced liberalism, i.e giving equality of opportunity.

once again you show how little you understand by calling such practices socialism, and, even more laughably, communism.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
> "No its the goal of advanced liberalism, i.e giving equality of opportunity."

Not just equality of opportunity, but equality of results. Thus the reliance on "progessive" taxes, which equalize income, and large, complex social systems which ensure food, housing, health care, and other "basic rights" for the entire populace.

Advanced Liberalism seeks a classless, stateless society where everyone benefits equally from the means of productions. Communism is a classless, stateless society where the means of production are equally owned by all.

Yeah, big difference there. Keep telling yourself that.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:06:47 PM , Rating: 2
i just sent your reply to my politics tutor.

I believe she is still laughing at you. Hell i'm suprised i can even type i'm laughing so much.

Please, dont feel obliged to answer all of my posts, regardless of your ability to answer them. You're making yourself look silly.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
> "just sent your reply to my politics tutor....I believe she is still laughing at you"

Tell her to find a new line of work. The authors of The Philosophic Roots of Modern Ideology (used as a Political Science text in many major universities) came to the same conclusion in their work.



RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe they should find a new line of work then.

I'm talking about British advanced liberalism, taking into account the actions of the Liberal party in the early 20th century. If this helps you find a more accurate definition.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:34:29 PM , Rating: 2
> "Maybe they should find a new line of work then. "

They are degreed professors at major universities. What are your tutor's qualifications?

In any case, British Liberalism, while it shares some common points with traditional Eurocommunism, does differ substantially in many others. And those differences explain, in large measure, much of the friction in attempting to integrate the U.K. into the fold of the EU.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 11:15:03 PM , Rating: 1
"Eurocommunism"
If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... besides in case you didn’t notice the EU is currently more turned towards the right wing (democrats, conservatives...) than the left of socialists let along the extreme left of the communists.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 10:42:18 AM , Rating: 2
I wouldnt bother engaging him a debate regarding this. He is obviously lacking in knowledge regarding this subject.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
> "He is obviously lacking in knowledge regarding this subject. "

I've backed up my statements with facts, references, and links. Your only backing seems to be your "politics tutor".

By the way, you ignored my request for her credentials...did you miss the question?


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:23:39 PM , Rating: 2
did you miss the point of the article?

Fact is you're wrong, it fairly obvious.
I do not know, nor care what qualifications she has, indeed my point is backed up by numerous politics books I happen to have filling my room, so it is, therefore irrelevant.

Being an active member or a political party and having studied the subject i am in a postion to know about this type of thing.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 2:29:24 PM , Rating: 2
> "Being an active member or a political party and having studied the subject i am in a postion to know about this type of thing..."

Two posts ago you were being tutored in political science...now you're claiming to hold an expert opinion, and puting it above those of degreed professors? Truth is stranger than fiction.

I have news for you..belonging to a political party doesn't automatically make you an expert on even that party, much less all the other political elements present within the EU.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 7:03:01 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop it, your embarassing yourself, really you are.

i never claimed any of what you state, i meerly claim that your statements are inaccurate, indeed they are wrong. It doesnt take an expert in this subject to see this.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 8:10:12 PM , Rating: 2
> "I never claimed any of what you state..."

It's all right there in black and white, kid. If you changed your mind about it, just say so. Don't claim you didn't say it.



RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:06:25 AM , Rating: 2
> ""Eurocommunism" If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... "

Good god man, do you know nothing whatsoever of your own continent?

quote:
It was those Communist parties with strongest popular support, notably the Italian Communist Party (PCI), Spanish Communist Party (PCE) and the French Communist Party (PCF) that adopted Eurocommunism most enthusiastically ....Eurocommunist ideas won at least partial acceptance outside of Western Europe. Prominent parties influenced by it outside of Europe were the Movement for Socialism (Venezuela), the Japanese Communist Party, the Mexican Communist Party and the Communist Party of Australia....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 4:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
Most of the Europe is either socialist or democrat, end of the story, the communist party is one of the less representative political party in the EU, so how the hell could that be a reason hindering the UK EU relations... besides the 2 major UK parties are also part of the 2 major EU political “groups” on the European parliament and most EU countries (if not all) are leaded by socialist or democrats since a “long” time...

BTW I know very well there are communists in Europe I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED THERE WASNT, so stop posting useless crap just for the heck of showing you know how to use wiki.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 6:03:00 PM , Rating: 1
Strunf: "once again you show how little you understand by calling such practices socialism..."

Strunf, 4 posts later: "Most of the Europe is either socialist or democrat, end of the story"

Are you just playing the clown, or do can you honestly not recall your own posts?


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 6:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
Your first quote is not from one of my posts.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 12:17:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... besides in case you didn’t notice the EU is currently more turned towards the right wing (democrats, conservatives...) than the left of socialists let along the extreme left of the communists

The problem with your view, as demonstrated by the quote above, is that you make the incorrect assumption that everyone in the EU is on the "same page" and have basically the same views. There are some 450 million people in the EU with a very diverse set of backgrounds - of course it directly follows that the entire spectrum will be represented in politics in the EU. While there may be some kind of "average," more extreme views like Eurocommunism do hold true for some people. The same is true in the U.S. of course.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:32:20 PM , Rating: 2
Good post, however 'masher2' seems to be implying that these sorts of political beliefs are a widespread throughout the EU and affect its decisions regarding business. This is not the case.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 2:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
> "'masher2' seems to be implying that these sorts of political beliefs are a widespread throughout the EU and affect its decisions regarding business"

Widespread is a relative term...they're certainly far more widespread than they are in the US. And they certainly affec the decisions of the EU-- case in point, the largest item in the EU's budget by far is agricultural subsidies to farmers.




RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 6:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
i hope your familiar with the phrase 'muppet' as you are one.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 5:20:53 PM , Rating: 2
I don’t assume everyone is on the same page, its common knowledge that there’s plenty of political choices, however communism is the minority so why even bother giving them some credit for the EU UK situation.
The average in EU is with no doubt central since the extreme right or left are the minority and the majority is either central-left or central-right, and we keep alternating between socialists and democrats leaders.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 7:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly, however, you would be hard pressed to call most of the leaders socialist, hell, even Blair isnt socialist.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:36:51 PM , Rating: 2
indeed.

Considering that developing markets such as India and China have serious piracy issues, it seems Microsoft is making the most money from the US and EU markets, which means if you pull out from the EU, you cut your profits and turnover by nearly half.

If that happened the stock brokers would have a fit and maybe the company would go into meltdown, not before the people with stock demand to oust the CEO of the company via a vote.

You cant just pull out of the largest economy in the world (the EU is the first as of 2004 i believe) and not have some pretty serious consequences.

Plus Linux and the open source community or even apple would just love Microsoft to leave such a massive market open for them.


Wow...
By gez on 7/28/2006 4:30:33 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, doesn't the EU have more important things to do than craft elaborate anti-trust cases against nearly every new technology? Don't they have a country (or multiple countries, in this case) to run?




RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:38:21 PM , Rating: 2
> Honestly, doesn't the EU have more important things to do than craft elaborate anti-trust cases against nearly every new technology?

Quite apparently-- no.


RE: Wow...
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:43:44 PM , Rating: 1
No, the strange country called EU is not actually a country. It does not have one or more countries to run. This is because it is *not* the US. It is, in fact, different.

It has a lot of other responsibilities, among others, ensuring fair competition, which sometimes require them to *examine* various products and agreements between companies. That is what they are doing.


RE: Wow...
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:31:42 PM , Rating: 2
indeed.

Plus if you want to sell your wares in the largest economic market in the world (the EU), you have play by the EU's rules.

No more, no less.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:49:40 PM , Rating: 2
> "Plus if you want to sell your wares in the [EU], you have play by the EU's rules."

No one is disputing that. We're merely pointing out those rules are slanted, biased, unequally enforced, and intended less to protect the consumer than they are to line the EU's pockets through confiscatory policies.


RE: Wow...
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 7:31:36 PM , Rating: 1
Like the ones of most countries including your own...


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:30:34 PM , Rating: 3
> "Besides. Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple. The EU is not just out to get US companies"

Given all the French legal action against Apple, culminating in the so-called "iPod law", you're going to have a hard time selling the idea that they're trying to benefit Apple.


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 6:40:51 AM , Rating: 2
If the EU rules are slanted what about the US rules? If MS was not a US company I'm sure that the US would have a lot more issues with their monopoly.

I live in the EU and I can definately say a thing or two I dislike about the EU but I can say the same about the US.


RE: Wow...
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 9:26:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If MS was not a US company I'm sure that the US would have a lot more issues with their monopoly.

Can you think of an instance where the US government, in your opinion, overzealously prosecuted a European company in the way you are suggesting?


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 12:17:03 PM , Rating: 2
Now you are suggesting that the EU is "overzealously prosecuting" this or that. I don't agree that that's the case. And no. I can't really think of the US doing that either. The US has had problems with the MS, but as long as the tax dollars come your way it's not that big of a deal.

Besides. Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple. The EU is not just out to get US companies.


RE: Wow...
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now you are suggesting that the EU is "overzealously prosecuting" this or that.

You don't think that fines in excess of $1B for not producing certain documentation are overzealous? I suppose you wouldn't.

Anyway, you're just dodging my question - you stated that the US does the same kind of thing. Can you think of any examples where the US government has gone after a European company in a way similar to how the EU has gone after Microsoft?
quote:
Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple.

What decisions have benefitted these companies? Are you going to seriously argue that the forced release of Windows XPN, with sales of practically zero, are helping Real Networks or Apple more effectively sell their media player? Please tell me what benefits there have been to competition that you see from past EU decisions.


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 5:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyway, you're just dodging my question - you stated that the US does the same kind of thing. Can you think of any examples where the US government has gone after a European company in a way similar to how the EU has gone after Microsoft?
Wanna see me dodging? That's because the EU companies are playing nicely... I don't have the time or the will to have this conversation. Not because it is not interesting. I just don't have time to do the research required to answer your questions. Take that as a compliment.

I have a few things in mind that I could post if I find them interesting enought to do some googling... On the other hand. This is just another EU vs US thread (of the 3-4 in this month) and will be forgotten in a week so why bother.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 7:16:12 PM , Rating: 2
> "You don't think that fines in excess of $1B for not producing certain documentation are overzealous?"

Just a small correction-- Microsoft *is* producing the documentation. The billion-dollar fine is for not producing it fast enough to suit the EC.


RE: Wow...
By mushi799 on 7/28/2006 4:42:48 PM , Rating: 2
These anti-trust cases are funding the retirement plans for the EU committee.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:36:08 PM , Rating: 2
> "The newest members of EU, the eastern countries in Europe, do not have a GDP compared to the western part of Europe, therefore the average GDP/capacita is lower."

The only nations of Europe which have a GDP/capita equal to the US are Ireland and Norway. Germany and France's is $12,000 per person lower ($30K vs. $42K) and Spain has a measly $25K/per.

Portugal's is less than half the US rate, at a tiny $19K/per capita.


Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 3:07:47 PM , Rating: 3
DT keeps posting that "Toshiba says they are selling players at a loss", which is, and always has been incorrect. Toshiba has *never* made a formal statement on the issue. The whole argument is made by a third party's tear-down analysis (iSupply -- the same firm to do the BOM analysis of the Xbox 360).

In reality, a Toshiba exec has said they are *not* selling at a loss. However this exec was a VP in an unaffiliated division, so his statement is just as relevant as iSupply's analysis (which has no clue what economies of scale Toshiba are benefiting from by being a close ally of Intel).

Additionally, iSupply seems to have a very narrow view of their analysis practices. They state that MS is taking a $125 loss per console based on a BOM analysis that figures the Xbox 360 is $525 to manufacture. This is problematic due to the simple fact that the $399 Xbox nets Microsoft closer to $299. When you take into account distribution, retail markup (the stores are *not* taking a loss), and amortizing the marketing costs, they can't possibly make anywhere near $399. As a result, you have to take iSupply's comments with a grain of salt as they seem to have problems with basic assumptions regarding the actual retail market space.




RE: Correction...
By DigitalFreak on 7/28/2006 3:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
You go, girl!


RE: Correction...
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 3:23:21 PM , Rating: 2
A couple quick points.

1. Toshiba would never admit to taking a loss because they would then expose themselves to investigation for predatory pricing, which is illegal in some circumstances, although in practice hard to prove. If the company states they are taking a loss in an official PR, then they obviously provide strong evidence of the same.

2. I don't view any bias in iSupply's teardown analysis, nor do I see any issues with how they calculate the loss, which presumably is calculated based on MSRP. I think you are taking too literally the statement that "Microsoft loses," which you should take as "Microsoft loses no less than."

3. While there may be some special deals given to some customers, for the most part the devices they tear down are based on readily-available commercial components for which volume pricing is also readily available.


RE: Correction...
By Merry on 7/28/2006 3:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
yeah, i dont think we'll get better information for a while yet.

Still the article will be a good outlet for all the EU bashing yanks out there, which should save them a trip to the shrink </sarcasm>


RE: Correction...
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 4:52:09 PM , Rating: 2
well it is the mandate of the people who are doing it..

i mean after all they are "European Commission competition officials"


http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/index_en.html

though im suprised to see they have any time on their hands with this little task to do...

http://www.logo-competition.eu/

thats the first line on their HOT NEWS listing there in the middle of their page...



RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 8:01:08 PM , Rating: 2
None of your points change the fact that DT was wrong by claiming Toshiba stated they were taking a loss...

1.) Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal. Generally you can sell whatever you want for a loss, all day long. There have been cases in International trade (Japanese steel), however the related trade dispute revolved around the practice of dumping (i.e. flooding the market) rather than simply taking a loss.

This is also considered an acceptable sales tactic for many types of consumer technology as every vide game console in the last decade has been initially sold at a loss. There has never been a legal challenge relating to this tactic in regards to consumer electronics goods.

2. I didn't say I think iSupply is showing bias, more so that they are off regarding the acquisition costs of components. For instance, MS has informed investors that they take a loss in the low-100s per console. Given that their income per console is around $300 instead of $400, this means the production costs would be closer to $425; ergo the error rate was ~20%.

3. Volume pricing for these components is not readily available. The published pricing is almost always QTY 1,000 and those numbers don't reflect anything near a negotiated discount on components. For reasonable quantity, you can expect somewhere between 40 and 50% off. Since Toshiba is one of the world's largest PC makers, they are seeing volume discounts well beyond anything approaching a published wholesale cost. Heck, you can also get considerable discounts for QTY 1000 as the published numbers are nothing more than a non-negotiated high-quantity MSRP.

Nonetheless, DT is still wrong to claim Toshiba has said they are taking a loss. I've designed integrated devices and the selected components are not that expensive. I'd even gander they are making a profit, albeit slightly less than the margins on typical CE devices. Worst case they might be in a break-even situation.


RE: Correction...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 8:39:44 PM , Rating: 3
> "1.) Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal. Generally you can sell whatever you want for a loss, all day long...however the related trade dispute revolved around the practice of dumping (i.e. flooding the market)"

Oops, you are wrong on several points. First of all, "dumping" is not defined as flooding the market, but rather selling below cost.

Dumping per se is not illegal...but "predatory" dumping-- dumping to reduce or eliminate competition-- is. When you're selling below cost to garner market share, you are at risk of a predatory dumping antitrust action.


RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 10:22:56 PM , Rating: 2
That wasn't several points...

I wasn't clear enough. Dumping is almost always only applied to international transactions only and flooding the market with below market-cost goods, it is also by the most accepted definition considered predatory.

Also, in reference to my usage, I was correct. The generally accepted effects of "dumping" are impossible when you are moving such low volumes as to not disrupt the market. Shipping 50,000 HD-DVD players at $5 wouldn't be enough to accomplish much of anything...

At this point, no one in the HD-DVD/BluRay camp can be accused of anything predatory because they can't ship any quantity to make much of an impact. It would also be quite difficult, if not impossible, to tie a dumping argument to a "format" which any manufacturer could license.

Heck, I can apply all sorts of footnotes to what I wrote, but this is a web-forum and I'm not striving for anything approaching accuracy required for a dissertation.

And I suppose neither is Daily Tech since they persist with the same fallacy in every single HD-DVD article regarding Toshiba.


RE: Correction...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 10:33:02 PM , Rating: 2
> "That wasn't several points... "

I corrected two points in your original post. I could have corrected more, such as your statement that "selling below cost is never illegal". Many states make it illegal to sell certain commodities (gasoline, for instance) below cost under any circumstances. At least one state goes beyond this, and requires resellers of gasoline to charge their wholesale cost plus a certain minimum for profit.


> "Dumping is almost always only applied to international transactions only "

Once again, you are incorrect. I can cite a hundred legal examples to the contrary...one of the more well-known contemporary cases being "Brooke Group v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp".



RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/29/2006 12:00:31 AM , Rating: 2
such as your statement that "selling below cost is never illegal".

I didn't say that. I said rarely if ever. One could rationally construct infinite scenarios in which it were illegal, however in the actual world, tangible instances of selling below cost has rarely been prosecuted. Since I believe in the credo of innocent until proven guilty, I'll give any of those firms the benefit of the doubt until they actually lose in a court of law. However, If I were a state AG I might have a different attitude.

Once again, you are incorrect.

Actually no. The term has come to refer to international transactions. According to Merriam Webster: "to sell in quantity at a very low price; specifically : to sell abroad at less than the market price at home"

Also Wikipedia: "However, the word is now generally used only in the context of international trade law."

In a present-day context, the term is misused when it refers to domestic economic affairs.


RE: Correction...
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal.

You totally missed my point; I'll try again. Why would Toshiba come out and admit it is selling units below cost, when the possibility could exist (with whatever probability) that they could end up in a situation where doing so is illegal? What is the benefit to them in taking that risk, no matter how small? And I am not disputing your claim that they didn't make such a statement; I was simply providing what I think is a reasonable explanation for why they chose that course of action.
quote:
I didn't say I think iSupply is showing bias

OK, you're right, you were saying their calculations are not accurate; I mis-spoke. But in the end, their calculations are just estimates, and I think that everyone who reads their teardowns understands this.
quote:
Volume pricing for these components is not readily available.

If you say so, but in my experience, it is. I can personally get a quote for 1M pieces of any commercially available component within a few days, so I don't see why iSupply would have any problems doing the same. And as I already acknowledged there may be some discounts that my quote may not take into account, but the price would be close. Again, iSupply is just making cost estimates, not claiming to come to an exact cost.


RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 11:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
Well then, we pretty much agree albeit state it differently. My apologies if I came off a bit too strongly.

As you stated, it's highly unlikely they would admit to selling below cost even if they were. I don't know if they are in this particular case... Anything I say would be just a guess, but I don't think iSupply is correct in assuming they are selling at a loss. I understand any teardown is a guess, but the two I've read with their name on them seem awfully high. The Xbox one was contested, albeit not directly. They might do fine at their typical BOM analysis, so I don't want to tar and feather them, but these two in particular seem odd.

In regards to the volume prices, everything is negotiable. I could call and get that same quote, but the difference is that I could press them to drastically lower their prices if the vendor was confident I intended to purchase the product. If an engineering group known for BOM analysis inquired about my bulk prices I wouldn't give them anything except "bulk MSRP" since I wouldn't want to erode potential deals. Perhaps iSupply could fudge by saying "the real prices should be 20% less since we had no negotiating leverage", but a phantom discount is nearly impossible to quantify.

I just don't like situations like this because they can get out to investors and potentially render some degree of harm since these things tend to get falsely reported (ahem like in DT :).


What?
By phatboye on 7/28/2006 3:01:49 PM , Rating: 2
I wish this article gave some more details as to what the European Commission finds wrong with the licensing terms.




RE: What?
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:57:16 PM , Rating: 2


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5221658.stm


The Commission wants to know details of how the makers of the two new formats plan to license out their products to hardware manufacturers wanting to make new DVD players, as well as to firms wishing to produce the new discs themselves




RE: What?
By DCstewieG on 7/28/2006 4:07:09 PM , Rating: 3
I would bet that they have a problem with Sony not allowing a Blu-ray player to be HD-DVD compatible. That's total BS. The best way out of this format war is hybrid players and Blu-ray licensing forbids that.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/06/22/hybrid_hd_...
Interestingly, it appears that Samsung is calling Sony's bluff - under the licensing agreement for Blu-ray, parters aren't allowed to dabble in HD-DVD. It seems that Samsung is testing whether Sony will really push that.


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:35:16 PM , Rating: 3
> "I would bet that they have a problem with Sony not allowing a Blu-ray player to be HD-DVD compatible"

I'm sure the EU is trying to drum up more than this, or they wouldn't be investigating both HD-DVD and BR.


RE: What?
By OddTSi on 7/28/2006 9:54:45 PM , Rating: 1
What's wrong is that the companies are privately owned and make a profit. Socialists hate that.


RE: What?
By Zandros on 7/29/2006 10:29:46 AM , Rating: 2
Of course, the governments just hates companies who turn a profit and pays millions in tax money to pay for healthcare, roads et cetera. ;)


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:19:36 PM , Rating: 2
> "Of course, the governments just hates companies who turn a profit and pays millions in tax money to pay for healthcare, roads et cetera. ;) "

Precious few of the companies in the HD-DVD/BD camp pay taxes to European nations-- that's the innate problem here.


RE: What?
By ElJefe69 on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: What?
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 1:49:18 AM , Rating: 2
i dont really agree...
dont you know anything about your roots? dont you know anything about where you came from? man, you gotta realize that without Europe, there wont be any US, any Mexico, any cheap girls from Latin America....
this just makes me so furious, y´all come from Europe, men...


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:35:19 AM , Rating: 2
> "dont you know anything about your roots? dont you know anything about where you came from? "

European culture is the basis for modern civilization, agreed. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the argument at hand, however.


RE: What?
By tuteja1986 on 7/28/2006 11:27:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think they need a new a company to play with , Microsoft has become boring to them. Now they need to teach Sony and Toshiba a lesson.


RE: What?
By MrPieGuy on 7/29/2006 2:24:50 AM , Rating: 2
Hah that was my EXACT thought when I first read the headline. They just needed to make sure those millions a day MS is giving them dont stop once Microsoft is finished "complying" with whatever the EU wants.


Go sensationalism!
By Lonyo on 7/28/2006 8:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
Go sensationalism!
Wow, the standards are really dropping.

I see NOTHING of the EU laucnhing an anti-trust case against HD-DVD or BluRay, just asking for details to find out if there are any rule breaches.

The title makes it seem like the EU is out to get both formats.
They are out to get information about the formats to give them the once over. Hardly even remotely the same thing.




RE: Go sensationalism!
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:51:53 PM , Rating: 1
"It's rather more than just a polite request for more information."
That's your opinion... on the news I only read quoted "We sent a letter earlier this month to the makers of HD DVD and Blu-ray to request information about licensing"
"There are no indications of any complaint, nor of any antitrust concerns on the part of the Commission or anyone else"


RE: Go sensationalism!
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:17:10 AM , Rating: 2
You can downplay it if you want, but the EU spokesman made it real clear already.
quote:
The European Commission has launched an unofficial antitrust probe into the two emerging DVD formats championed by Toshiba and Sony, a spokesman said Thursday.

That's from the referenced Yahoo article. Obviously an "unofficial antitrust probe" is not the same as just sending a letter.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 2:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
I don’t care about the news writer wrote, I only go by what they really said and its clearly written that they only sent a letter... but feel free to start gearing up your weapons like if there was a anti-trust case already.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:09:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don’t care about the news writer wrote

Translation: Don't confuse me with the facts.

Sorry, the writer did not state an opinion or an interpretation of EU actions. The writer wrote that a spokesman said that the EU had launched an unoffical antitrust probe. That is stated as a fact, period. No wiggle room there.

If you want to dispute the fact, that's fine, but you need to present some evidence if you want to convince anyone.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 9:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
No, he wrote his interpretation of what was said, what is quoted on the news is what was said and it's clearly written, the EU sent a letter and there's no anti-trust case yet, common stop talking about something that may happen in the future... or not.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 9:20:48 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, he wrote his interpretation of what was said"

I'm unsure why you are arguing against simple truth. The EC has begun an antitrust probe. No one has said they've started an antitrust case. The difference between the two is clear in everyone's mind except, apparently, your own.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:36:22 PM , Rating: 2
"No one has said they've started an antitrust case."
No but you said "They're launching an antitrust probe, which is the first step in a formal case. It's rather more than just a polite request for more information."
So no, its not rather more than request for information but a request for information plain and simple, depending on the answer we may get or not an anti-trust case. Do you now see the difference between what you say and what it’s actually happening?...


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:55:57 PM , Rating: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5221658.stm

Unless you have any secret inside information.


By the way, masher2 and tomz, you have far too much time on your hands.


Lol
By vhx on 7/28/2006 11:20:56 PM , Rating: 2
I knew this would turn into an EU vs. US fight before I even opened the article. How pathetic.

Bozilla grow up, you are a disgrace to your country.

TBH I blame the media, and anyone who listens to the media.




RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 8:28:57 AM , Rating: 1
Some people have a dent against the EU... I cant really blame them after all we said loud and clear we wouldn’t play the US games anymore… anyway there’s a lot of hypocrite people speaking here hiding facts and “forgetting” others just for the sake of talking crap… just look to news its all about a letter and yet people already speak like if it was a real case, it took almost 2 years between the time the EU sent a similar letter to MS and actually doing something about it, how about you guys wait till then to start talking crap?...


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 9:19:53 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Some people have a dent against the EU

That's a pretty dumb statement considering the nature of the debate. If you look back (please do, you will see I'm right), the entire discussion was due to bozilla's ruthless attack against US citizens based on total ignorance. What I and others did was to, one at a time, counter his/her ignorant statements with the real facts of the situation.

So don't sit there with some "greater than thou" attitude like the EU got attacked, because it didn't go down that way at all.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:55:31 AM , Rating: 1
Feel free to look back... the EU wrote a letter yet you guys (mainly masher2) speaks as if they were already suing them...

The entire discussion you guys had was due to the starter calling Europeans as funny people then bozilla replied back on the same coin.

And just look to all the other topics...
1st topic is neutral
2nd calls Europeans funny people...
3rd neutral
4th neutral
5th neutral
6th asks if we don’t have anything better to do...
7th asks if we need money that bad...
8th neutral
9th tired of the EU bickering

So that makes 4 out of 9 topics that attack the EU directly more so than what they did... and I’m pretty sure it’s about the same thing in all the other EU “news” if not worst...


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:07:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The entire discussion you guys had was due to the starter calling Europeans as funny people then bozilla replied back on the same coin.

Neutral? I would hardly call the following "neutral":
quote:
Statements like this are dead-on example of ignorance and selfishness of most Americans. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes an American or an american company better or more important then the rest of the world. You are not alone in the world, get that in your head.

Bozilla's post was following by an entire series of posts in the same vein. The bulk of the comments on this thread are his anti-American points and our counterpoints. I would hardly call the thread anti-EU. The theme of bozilla's posts is that Americans are ignorant idiots compared with Europeans. As we respond to that grossly inaccurate stereotype, it may sound anti-EU, but it isn't.


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:09:15 AM , Rating: 1
I should also point out that the OP that bozilla was responding to had nothing to do with America. I pointed this out right away, but bozilla carried on with his/her vicious attacks.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:02:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You mean the bulk of the comments on this thread are his anti-American points and your pro-American counterpoints... right?!

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. And pro-American does not equal anti-EU. Get it?


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
> "the entire discussion was due to bozilla's ruthless attack against US citizens based on total ignorance"

These threads are all alike...they immediately become invaded by European teenagers who, after labelling all Americans as ignorant, promptly begin displaying their own total lack of knowledge of events outside their own borders. Here in this thread alone, we have people claiming Americans "never travel", that unemployment in the US is higher than in the EU, and, most astounding of all, that "90%" of Americans grow up in single-parent homes.

Take Strunf, for example. In a past thread, he demonstrated an appalling ignorance of the history of his own continent, much less the rest of the world...and yet here he is again, up to his same old tricks.

Its simple human nature. Europeans once had power and prestige. Their current status rankles them, so they lash out at a convenient target. I suppose that, in the centuries to come when US influence fades, we'll wind up in the same boat.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 4:54:05 PM , Rating: 2
ya ya I'm here only to correct you dumb statements if you dont like it how about not posting more dumb statements :P

Me playing tricks... dude I'm not of your kind.


RE: Lol
By Hare on 7/30/2006 4:56:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its simple human nature. Europeans once had power and prestige. Their current status rankles them, so they lash out at a convenient target. I suppose that, in the centuries to come when US influence fades, we'll wind up in the same boat.
And now europe don't have power or prestige :) I can't really agree... Your assumption of the people living in europe being jealous is just naive.

This is mostly because the europeans don't even want to compare the europe vs the US because we have contries like Turkey trying to get to the EU. There are countries in europe that have poor economy etc. On the other hand there are countries like Finland that have practically zero corruption, world best healthcare, growing economy etc.

The US looks like heaven when you compare it to Turkey but compare it to a scandinavian country and the US no longer looks any better. Apples != Oranges.


RE: Lol
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:58:36 AM , Rating: 2
why you guyz always have to come up with potential cospiracy theory?
Europe DOESNT wanna compete with USA, it DOESNT wanna attack USA and once and for all, USA is better then Europe, we all know it...
and for the record, Europe does have prestige and fame in the world, i guess its the third or fourth importer in USA... :D


RE: Lol
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 10:18:16 AM , Rating: 1
> "Europe DOESNT wanna compete with USA..."

quote:
BBC News - France is spearheading a project to make European literary works available online in an effort to counter growing US cultural dominance worldwide...


Does anything not?
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2006 3:06:48 PM , Rating: 3
Does anything not break their competition rules?




RE: Does anything not?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
look my comment above, it goes the same for you.


RE: Does anything not?
By therealnickdanger on 7/28/2006 3:26:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
by bozilla on July 28, 2006 at 3:23 PM
look my comment above, it goes the same for you.

Then how do you explain this? Actual EU meeting minutes (no really, it's authentic):

Geoff: Hey Olaf, how was your vacation to the Apls?
Olaf: Gut. Enuf chit-chot, who are we to sue today?
Hernando: Well, with the money we're extorting from Microsoft, the sky's the limit!
Olaf: Was ist dis Blu-Ray und HD-DVD? Can we sue dem? Do zey have enuf monies?
Geoff: Hmm, why don't we look into it. Let's get their attention and see what they do...
Hernando: Agreed!
Olaf: The vinner of dis format war ist going to pay for their success!!


RE: Does anything not?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
yes, sure ;)

and im sure the person writing down the minutes was sure to put accents in with the minutes to make it sound more authentic :P


without a doubt the worst this place has been
By sapbeast on 7/29/2006 4:46:42 PM , Rating: 2
whatever happen to people following the rules?

* Harassing other users or employees
* Excessive use of derogatory language
* Excessive “neffing” or posting pointless, offtopic comments
* Spamming

I think you all have gone overboard




RE: without a doubt the worst this place has been
By NagoyaX on 7/29/2006 9:24:28 PM , Rating: 2
I would have to agree y do these post always end up as US vs the World or US vs EU???


By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:51:20 AM , Rating: 2
you see, there lies a problem...
either US or EU citizens are not willing to accept the fact that sumbody attacks either US or EU policies...
realize, that each country has its own history, each country has experienced good and bad times...
and i bet none of wants to go through the bad times again, hence the "pesimistic" policy against Sony and Toshiba....
without any doubt, i can say that EU speaks for Europe, people elected EU bureaus, therefore we accept this policy and me, personally, i aint got anything against US...in contrary I DO respect US citizens, as good, faithful people and USA as the one and only superpower of the world...
still there are some issues betwenn USA and EU, but i DON know why? we should be cooperating on the ITER project... :D


By jtesoro on 7/31/2006 7:08:59 AM , Rating: 2
This thing was such an interesting read (and quite a long one).

I tend to agree that it has gone overboard, and I had to review the discussion to see how the entire thing happened. Interesting how it starts out relatively innoccuously, then it got provocative and pretty soon all out war ensues. In the cast of characters, there's some who seem itching for a fight, some a bit more defensive, etc., etc. In the longest thread, someone actually started out trying to be neutral and prevent escalation, but unfortunately it got to the point where he got swept in himself.

Sadly, I'll bet real wars are just like this...


licensing terms
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
wasnt it part of these new formats licensing that you dont really own the disk..but have a license to view its content but you cannot transfer the license to another..aka you can't resell it?

if so..i wonder if thats what they are talking about..and if so..kudos to them.





RE: licensing terms
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:44:06 PM , Rating: 2
never mind..found out what they are talking about


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5221658.stm


The Commission wants to know details of how the makers of the two new formats plan to license out their products to hardware manufacturers wanting to make new DVD players, as well as to firms wishing to produce the new discs themselves


Look who's talking
By Gasaraki88 on 7/30/2006 12:21:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.


Wow, that's pretty funny. This means that if I visited a country for 8 days I become an expert on that country and can have valid opinons about that country yet if I visit for less than 7 days I am an ignorant being and can have absolutly no valid opinions about that country. I guess I better start visiting every country in the world for 8 days so I can be edumacated all about the different countries.


Also... yeah yeah war is bad. Why don't you ask the people in the countries and villages that can't defend themselves and are being attacked if they want someone to come help and protect them. Why don't you ask the people in Poland, Belgium, The Netherlands, France, etc, etc during WWII and see if they were happy some countries were willing to start a war to protect them.

"In order to protect peace, you have to be willing to go to war"




just a few notes
By XtremeM3 on 7/31/2006 6:32:59 AM , Rating: 2
I've been traveling for almost 4 years now, and I'll tell you...I miss the states when i'm away(except once when I was on a small remote island outside of Greece in the Ionian Sea). I've been to Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Just getting that out of the way before I get attacked for "never leaving the US"

First off, the war issue...retarded, let it go. One of my all time favorite quotes ever is

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy,
forget in time that men have died to win them."

If you don't know who said it, you should...I'll let you google it. It's very true and if people would think about things logically they would realize at no time when a war was started did everyone have all the facts(the people in general). Looking back into history books now it's easy to say... "Thanks USA for bailing us out, we didn't really want to learn German" We have support from other countries for a reason. I promise that the government(s) & military(ies) knows more about what is going on that you. I PROMISE.

As far as the arguements of "Look at your roots" - "You all came from Europe" etc, etc. I'm sorry...what does that say about you? No, really...think about it. The US has existed for how long? As compared to *insertyourcountryhere*? And it has how big of a role in *insertANYTHINGhere*? Not bad for a fetus in comparison to the age of others...

But you're right, the US was populated with people who...left Europe right? I don't know about you guys, but If I've got a good deal going...I'm not moving. Guess quite a few people didn't think where they were was all that great. Maybe they should have talked to you... :)

haha...i'm done now. I'm sure someone is REALLY pissed off about this and can't wait to take it apart line by line. But I really just commented because it's been a slow news day on DailyTech and I'm bored at work - I hope the person that does do that isn't actually taking time they could be doing something personally productive and I hope they are just screwing the company they work for by wasting time answering my ramblings during work hours...otherwise...i feel sorry for you and your need to waste personal time argueing over the internet.... LOL





anti- bla lawsuit?
By michal1980 on 7/28/06, Rating: -1
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:21:43 PM , Rating: 1
if you were less ignorant and more informed about everyday life you would understand why antitrust enforcement is very very important. Unlike States where everything goes as long as enough government agencies are greased up with cash, in Europe this is not possible.

Europe has their own companies to protect from united giants and of course it's a normal and justifiable thing to raise antitrust lawsuits when they try to force themselves onto the markets.

It's called democracy and sovereignty of EU, if these companies don't like it, they don't have to sell things in Europe, it's as simple as that.

Statements like this are dead-on example of ignorance and selfishness of most Americans. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes an American or an american company better or more important then the rest of the world. You are not alone in the world, get that in your head.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Schadenfroh on 7/28/2006 3:24:24 PM , Rating: 3
So, Europeans think that Sony and Toshiba are American companies now?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 1:56:45 AM , Rating: 2
first of, gotta do a bit of Economy...
second, dont f**k with Europe, man....
cuz half of the world come from Europe, our lauzy civilization and culture started in Europe, one probe and you act like "those EU are funny..." or "EU are just non-gay fags"....
oh man, please...first evaluate yourselves instead of our...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 3:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
How did you figure out that the OP was American or expressing a stereotypical American belief?

...or do you just have it in for America?. You showed up for a fight that doesn't even exist yet, in two ways. First, you already frames this as an EU-vs-America debate, which only exists in your mind so far. Second, the EU has not even taken any action than to request information. So really this is all a moot point since really nothing is going on - there is no official anti-trust probe even started.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:44:20 PM , Rating: 2
My response was geared toward the comment that came from obviously an ignorant person. Only American would make statements like that.

I never said this was US thing, however it reflects the attitude of majority of Americans towards EU or any other country.

Sony and Toshiba and other corporations have fairly big influence in the United States. The only thing I was stating is that EU is NOT like United States that allows everything to go through, without regard of whether or not these things hurt the consumer or not.

I live in the States and I'm just stating what I see here and I was born in Europe and I'm very well informed and understand the reasoning behind this.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:00:51 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
My response was geared toward the comment that came from obviously an ignorant person. Only American would make statements like that.

Sorry, not all Americans are ignorant, and not all ignorant people live in America. This should be obvious to you, even if you choose to ignore this fact.
quote:
I never said this was US thing, however it reflects the attitude of majority of Americans towards EU or any other country.

Bullshit, you totally make this a US thing. Read what you wrote! Read the last paragraph!
quote:
Sony and Toshiba and other corporations have fairly big influence in the United States. The only thing I was stating is that EU is NOT like United States that allows everything to go through, without regard of whether or not these things hurt the consumer or not.

Sorry, that is wrong in many ways - you are displaying the same ignorance that you accuse the OP of. For instance, in the U.S., major mergers and acquisitions need to be approved by the U.S. government to evaluate their possible impact on competition. There are many other examples.
quote:
I live in the States and I'm just stating what I see here and I was born in Europe and I'm very well informed and understand the reasoning behind this.

Well you must have a real problem if you live in America and have such obvious contempt for Americans. If you take the time to get to know some Americans, and are honest with yourself, you will find that most Americans are good, honest, friendly people who have a deep commitment to right and wrong, and who fight for what they believe in. In other words, Americans are not unlike other people throughout most of the world, at least based on my experience.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:09:59 PM , Rating: 2
Tomz I never said Americans are bad people, quite the opposite some of my best friends are Americans.

I just said majority is very ignorant and just don't have time to deal with reality because they have to pay their bills and watch their Oprahs. You are in denial if you truly think this is not the case.

For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.
You need to experience some other country's system, meet people etc to form your opinion, not something that CNN or other news networks chew it up for you so it is completey American oriented.

Sorry, that is wrong in many ways - you are displaying the same ignorance that you accuse the OP of. For instance, in the U.S., major mergers and acquisitions need to be approved by the U.S. government to evaluate their possible impact on competition. There are many other examples.

You are conveniently omitting the fact that these same federal agencies are bought in many ways by the same corporations they are approving so it's just a big joke. It wasn't like this before, but it is these days. All about the money. You should listen to a few people who were a part of the government and who commented on how these big corporations influence government decisions through donations etc. You live in an illusion my friend.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Tomz I never said Americans are bad people, quite the opposite some of my best friends are Americans. I just said majority is very ignorant...

Please help me understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean, ignorant relative to Europeans? Ignorant about what subjects, exactly? Are you yourself fully informed on all subjects? Or are you also ignorant?
quote:
For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.

Your assertion that only people who have traveled overseas would be in a position to express an informed viewpoint is, frankly, pretty stupid. It's like saying that I can't learn anything about nuclear physics unless I have direct access to an particle accelerator. Your argument makes no sense.
quote:
You need to experience some other country's system, meet people etc to form your opinion, not something that CNN or other news networks chew it up for you so it is completey American oriented.

Sorry, again, but firsthand experiential learning is not the only form of learning. In addition, where do you develop an expectation that American media would not have a pro-American bias? And that American citizens wouldn't expect a pro-American bias? Do you understand nothing about human nature?
quote:
You are conveniently omitting the fact that these same federal agencies are bought in many ways by the same corporations they are approving so it's just a big joke.

Proof? I simply do not accept your theory that the will and responsibility of the government simply bends when corporations want it to. Without any evidence, your unfounded assertions are just characters sitting in a web server database.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:51:17 PM , Rating: 1
Please help me understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean, ignorant relative to Europeans? Ignorant about what subjects, exactly? Are you yourself fully informed on all subjects? Or are you also ignorant?

Ignorant about everything that's going around them. Not all though, but unfortunately a huge majority. It's just lack of interest in many things that is making this a reality and then you get to talk to someone who's defending a war. It's completely idiotic. First of all I experienced war and bombing and there's nothing justifiable about it. It's easy to make uninformed comments when you sit on your couch without experiencing anything.

Your assertion that only people who have traveled overseas would be in a position to express an informed viewpoint is, frankly, pretty stupid. It's like saying that I can't learn anything about nuclear physics unless I have direct access to an particle accelerator. Your argument makes no sense.

You see, you are showing your ignorance here and comparing completely different things. Of course that a person who travels and sees other things, like experience different cultures, governments, and overall different type of life can bring a more objective opinion to the table.

Your comparison is completely invalid. Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what. Your comment is ridiculous.


Proof? I simply do not accept your theory that the will and responsibility of the government simply bends when corporations want it to. Without any evidence, your unfounded assertions are just characters sitting in a web server database.


Proof, you really need to get more informed. Watch news and interviews with governement officials that went out of that scene and wrote books about how the government works and how they get sponsored. It's all about favors, in these books they also give suggestions of how the system should work to avoid these things. But I guess you need to read and be interested more in what's wrong in order to see this. Of course you'll never see a document that says "Oh yes we took money and enforced this law for this corporation", you need to be logical and informed to understand what's going on.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 5:05:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ignorant about everything that's going around them. Not all though, but unfortunately a huge majority. It's just lack of interest in many things that is making this a reality and then you get to talk to someone who's defending a war. It's completely idiotic. First of all I experienced war and bombing and there's nothing justifiable about it. It's easy to make uninformed comments when you sit on your couch without experiencing anything.

Your experience doesn't bring you more objectivity as you claim. Instead it clouds your views with emotions. Sorry to break it to you, but the reality is that there are situations in which war is justified. There are situations where war leads to less suffering. Just look at history. What if America didn't get involved in WW-II - what would have been the outcome, especially for Europeans? America's participation in that was was completely justified. History has many examples of what are considered "just" wars that you are ignoring.
quote:
Your comparison is completely invalid. Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what. Your comment is ridiculous.

Your view makes no sense, since it is the equivalent of, nothing that I learn makes any sense unless I experience it firsthand. That is not how humans learn. I understand and agree that traveling does help one develop a perspective, but that is not the only way to develop a perspective.
quote:
Proof, you really need to get more informed. Watch news and interviews with governement officials that went out of that scene and wrote books about how the government works and how they get sponsored. It's all about favors, in these books they also give suggestions of how the system should work to avoid these things. But I guess you need to read and be interested more in what's wrong in order to see this. Of course you'll never see a document that says "Oh yes we took money and enforced this law for this corporation", you need to be logical and informed to understand what's going on.

The basic mistake you make in your reasoning is that you equate influence with corruption. These are two related, but different, things. Influence is not wrong. Influence and power is how politics work, both in America and in Europe. You cannot deny this basic fact.

And sorry, I do not agree with your implication that politicians accept campaign contributions and/or bribes from corporations to avoid prosecution under the law. The American government may not be efficient, but it is certainly not this corrupt.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By aos007 on 7/28/2006 6:31:07 PM , Rating: 2
His arguments (about experience, at least) make perfect sense. For an example - do you really expect to be able to build an audio amplifier just by learning theory and reading datasheets, without ever having held a soldering iron before? Or as a beginner programmer read a few books on software design and apply for the job of software architect.

Sometimes there's no substitute for experience. And when it comes to culture and human relations there IS no substitute. You can read books and watch CNN all you want and memorize CIA factsheets, but if you don't experience things first hand you shouldn't expect to really understand it.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:03:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
His arguments (about experience, at least) make perfect sense.

I agree they make some sense, to a point. His thesis is that experiential learning is the only type of learning that counts. I am arguing that other forms of learning can also help lead someone to a valid "world perspective." It's true that you can only learn the detailed, true nature of what is like to live in a country by actually living there. But that type of knowledge isn't necessarily a requisite for being able to otherwise learn about and reason about a country or region of the world.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 5:22:23 PM , Rating: 2
> "Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what"

What war have you personally experienced? Myself, I've been on the periphery of two different war situations. The last was on the Thai-Kampuchea border, when Khmer rebels were shelling a refugee camp

This refugee "camp" held perhaps 100,000 people....half of which appeared to be children, many of which had lived most or all their lives in the camp. All had stories to tell of Khmer butchery and torture. Many were orphans...with parents killed not accidently in crossfire, but intentionally in one of the many Khmer purges. I met a young boy there...his nose was smeared across his face, all the way around to his left ear. Why? Because at age 4, a Khmer soldier had picked him up, bashed him against a tree a few times, and left him for dead.

Now, are you going to sit there on your pretentious, ill-informed backside and claim that making war against the Khmer Rouge wasn't "justified"? What utter ignorance! What inconceivable gall! You sir, are an ass.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
> "Tomz I never said Americans are bad people..."

You merely stereotyped them all as ignorant and selfish. If that isn't "bad" in your opinion, what is? Cannibalism?

> "For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that?"

I've lived and worked in several foreign nations, and visited several dozen others on five different continents. And those experiences reinforced my opinion-- the more a nation treats business as an "enemy of the people"...the worse off the people are.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By smitty3268 on 7/28/2006 5:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
And those experiences reinforced my opinion-- the more a nation treats business as an "enemy of the people"...the worse off the people are.

Slave owners everywhere would love you... :)

Seriously, now, Americans are exactly like the people in every other country. Small differences may arise from our history and circumstances. We're richer and more powerful, so we don't tend to have to care as much about what other people think. We are so large and (mostly) isolated geographically that people don't get out of the country nearly as much as Europeans, for example. Our history makes us a bit more militarily agressive than many other people.

Other traits might be a bit different, but if other countries were in the same position we are then I have no doubt their people would be acting exactly the same.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Uncle Sam on 7/28/2006 3:29:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yes we are more important. You only wish you were born here!


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By PrinceGaz on 7/31/2006 9:02:58 AM , Rating: 2
lol, you're not being serious, are you?

Whilst the US is a better place to live than the majority of the world, it is not better than every country. I would personally never consider swapping my UK citizenship (and where I was born) for growing up in the not so good "US and A". In fact there are very few countries I would have swapped it for, the most likely being Norway, but most certainly not the US.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By BioRebel on 7/28/2006 3:31:22 PM , Rating: 2
Even if it means forcing companies to hand over code they worked for 20 years to keep secret and then set-up smaller government funded progaming companies to rip-off the code and then shun out the owner? Face it, the EU is only performing 90% of these acts because they can't tax the companies directly.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Hare on 7/29/2006 6:33:22 AM , Rating: 2
Hahaha. Yes. That's exactly what the EU is doing... NOT !


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By OrSin on 7/28/2006 3:31:55 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry that a load of crap. EU is concerned about the who much profit is coming to thier companies. period. Nothing else. EU doesn develop much anymore and have to rely of lisence and from other countries and they are all ready to make a stink about anything that doesn't profit them.

Why the hell is this any for of american basing going on. None of these companies are american.

Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them.

Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it. EU is trying to fine thier way to profit in stead of develeoping any R&D


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/28/2006 3:41:18 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry that a load of crap. EU is concerned about the who much profit is coming to thier companies. period. Nothing else. EU doesn develop much anymore and have to rely of lisence and from other countries and they are all ready to make a stink about anything that doesn't profit them.

Why the hell is this any for of american basing going on. None of these companies are american.

Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them.

Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it. EU is trying to fine thier way to profit in stead of develeoping any R&D


Ok, firstly, can you learn to spell. Secondly can you do a little research into the EU and its goals, you will see your judgement is wrong.

I am not making a comment on your intelligence, but your knowledge of the EU is apparently somewhat lacking.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:31:28 PM , Rating: 2
hahahahaa, yeah, the 5$ per EU citizen they fined Microsoft is sure gonna come in handy. We're going to use the money to buy all the US's nuclear missiles and fire them back at ya....

Sorry, but saying EU is trying to "profit" by fining companies is just so ridiculous it's hard to take seriously.

"Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it"
I think you got it the wrong way around. If you (any company) don't like the terms your product is sold under, then don't sell it in areas where these terms apply. If a company sells a product in the EU, that breaks EU law, then that company is fined. If they didn't want to be fined, they shouldn't break the law. Either by not selling in Europe, or by, well, following the law in the first place.

"Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them. "
Ok, I just can't read that. I thought Americans were supposed to be relatively good at their language?
Even if I try to guess my way past the spelling errors, I still can't make sense of the sentence itself.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
> "hahahahaa, yeah, the 5$ per EU citizen they fined Microsoft is sure gonna come in handy..."

If you don't think a free $1.6B windfall profit is attractive to a government body, garnered from no more effort than the stroke of a pen, then you understand nothing about government. If you don't realize its doubly attractive when its not taken from voters, then you don't understand elected politicians either.

In any case, you ignore the EU's largest means of profiting from plundering Microsoft's IP. It's not the fine itself, its the benefits given to European companies...who, presumably, will see increased revenues from the deal. Revenues that translate into higher employment and a larger tax base.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme.

If you think that 'raiding Microsofts IPs' is the largest way the EU can profit then pray-tell how on earth we got that 12 trillion USD GDP?

Spray some deodrant about, i smell the scent of a Anti-EU biased American.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:06:44 PM , Rating: 2
pretty = petty.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:26:28 PM , Rating: 2
> "please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme."

Oops again. The total fines to Microsoft are now in the neighborhood of $1.6B. The total budget of the EU was, in 2004, $130B. So this one fine alone pays over 1% of the total operating costs of the EU...with no guarantee there won't be more fines in the future.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:27:35 PM , Rating: 2
> "So this one fine alone..."

To be correct, this one series of fines...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 7:06:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme.

Yes, first after the U.S. you mean.

US GDP: $12.36 trillion (2005)
EU GDP: $12.18 trillion (2005)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos...
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos...

Also, pardon me if I think it is a bit daft to compare the fine against an invididual company against the combined GDP of a 25-nation union.

quote:
Spray some deodrant about, i smell the scent of a Anti-EU biased American.

Do I sense an ad hominem argument coming on?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 8:27:37 PM , Rating: 2
> "Aren’t you guys implying we are fining MS to get rich or something... "

Not to "get rich", just to grab a few billion in free money. Every little bit helps.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:53:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the International Monetary Found and World Bank, the EU ranks first on the GDP…

Fine, I see that. So let's just say that the EU and US have around the same GDP, and let's stop with the "we're #1" bantor, like that somehow proves something important.

Anyway, just a reminder that the EU GDP is the sum total of the GDP of 25 separate nations.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:13:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And the US GDP is the sum of the GDP of x number of states...

Sorry to state the obvious, but the US is a single nation, while the EU is not. The US states are similar to states within certain EU nations, e.g., states within Germany (Bavaria, Saxony, Lower Saxony, etc.).


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 4:58:00 PM , Rating: 1
No the US states aren’t the same as the Germany states, since the law is the same in all the German states while its not the case in the US, the EU can be seen as a single country on many levels... not much different from the US.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 5:08:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No the US states aren’t the same as the Germany states, since the law is the same in all the German states while its not the case in the US, the EU can be seen as a single country on many levels... not much different from the US.

You know, I get tired of having to correct you all the time. It does get tedious.

Anyway, you said that German states can't pass laws that only apply to a particular state. I'm not an expert on Germany, but here is a random news article I found with google discussing a law that Baden-Wuerttemberg passed.

Again, the US is a nation, the EU isn't. US states are not independent states at the international level, but EU member countries are.

Please do me a favor, and before you post your next nonsensical statement, use google first to see if you are right or wrong.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 5:12:22 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, forgot to paste the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3591043.stm


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 5:38:43 PM , Rating: 1
OK the law may slightly differ from state to state... far from the difference we see between many US states.

I never said the EU was a country I said it could be seen as one on many levels, like free transit of persons, in most things around the economy and many of the decisions are made by central institutions including MANY international treaties or actions.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 5:56:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
OK the law may slightly differ from state to state... far from the difference we see between many US states.

And how are you going to back up that statement? One minute ago, you didn't even know that states in Germany could pass laws, and now you're also an expert in the differences between state laws in the US? LOL.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 9:05:07 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not an expert its common knowledge... I mean you just have to speak of death sentence to see the difference between the US states and so on.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 7:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
> "the law is the same in all the German states..."

(then)

> "OK the law may slightly differ from state to state..."

Say what you want about Strunf...no matter how many times you prove him wrong, he still comes back for more. You gotta admire that level of dedication.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 9:07:36 PM , Rating: 1
I never pretend to be always 100% correct in my statements unlike some... besides errare humanum est.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 9:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
> "I never pretend to be always 100% correct in my statements unlike some... besides errare humanum est."

And in your case-- perseverare diabolicum as well.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Topweasel on 7/29/2006 9:57:42 PM , Rating: 2
Um there are Federal Law which are the same for all, then State laws, and then city laws and County laws. All of which differ. Technically if I cross the street then I could have to deal with a different set of laws. Its a Tier system, and the Fereral laws are more important then all other.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:15:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You forget to mention that it was the US companies that complained to the EU and hence it’s the US companies that will benefit the most from it.

Sorry, that doesn't follow logically. In addition, the purpose of EU regulation is not to benefit US companies. The purpose, at least in theory, is to promote competition. But frankly, I don't see how this benefits anyone. You only have to look to the failure of EU's last attempt to punish Microsoft to see how misguided their actions can be.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:28:44 PM , Rating: 1
"the purpose of EU regulation is not to benefit US companies."
I never said it was the EU purpose, I said it was the US companies that would benefit the most from it since after all it was them that complained in the first place.

"You only have to look to the failure of EU's last attempt to punish Microsoft"
What failure?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 11:17:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I said it was the US companies that would benefit the most from it since after all it was them that complained in the first place.

Again, that doesn't follow logically. Sun made the original complaint, but how will Sun benefit from the fines levied by Microsoft? It seems to me that only the EU will benefit from that.
quote:
"You only have to look to the failure of EU's last attempt to punish Microsoft" What failure?

Forcing Microsoft to release a version of XP without Windows Media Player, an offering that was all but completely rejected by consumers in Europe. It is a failure because it did not help promote competition. It was a waste of EU taxpayer resources. Microsoft is obviously appealing to have this decision reversed.

Just 1,787 copies of an alternate version of Windows without Microsoft’s Media Player Windows XPN had been sold since March 31, he said. That accounts for fewer than 0.005% of all Windows XP sales during the same period, Bellis said.

http://www.computerwire.com/industries/research/?p...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 8:07:39 AM , Rating: 1
"Sun made the original complaint, but how will Sun benefit from the fines levied by Microsoft?"
From the fines nothing, but the purpose of the EU wasn’t the fines but to force MS to release some documentation. And this documentation will help SUN and others to build better products.

While windows XP with out the media player doesn’t sell, at least people have the choice, and it sets a precedent, now I only ask for a windows with out the IE...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:38:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And this documentation will help SUN and others to build better products.

LOL, Sun stands nothing to gain - zero. Sun and Microsoft have since announced a formal partnership in 2004 to develop interoperable systems. This is not new news, although maybe nobody in Europe was aware:

http://www.sun.com/2004-0511/feature/

So I would guess that if a Sun engineer needs to know something about Microsoft code or protocols, they would just get on the phone and call an engineer at Microsoft.

Again, IMO the EU regulation is self-serving, and will have zero effect on competition in the end, just like last time.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 5:07:17 PM , Rating: 1
Well the wouldnt complain if they didnt had anything to complain about dont ya think...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 5:58:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well the wouldnt complain if they didnt had anything to complain about dont ya think...

If you say so. But my point is that Sun will not benefit going forward from anything the EU does. The EU is again wasting taxpayer dollars and Microsoft shareholder dollars for nothing.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 9:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
If you say so...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:22:59 PM , Rating: 2
> "Just 1,787 copies of an alternate version of Windows without Microsoft’s Media Player Windows XPN had been sold since March 31, he said. That accounts for fewer than 0.005% of all Windows XP sales during the same period, Bellis said. "

Proof indeed that the EU action was stuff and nonsense. Out of 450 million people, less than 2,000 actually wanted a version without Media Player. Yep, that really justified the $600M fine.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bob661 on 7/29/2006 1:46:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok, I just can't read that. I thought Americans were supposed to be relatively good at their language?
Believe it or not, english is a second langauge (or in this case third langauge) to some Americans.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By redbone75 on 7/28/2006 3:34:21 PM , Rating: 2
Pray tell, what high definition media standards are being developed in the EU? As far as I can remember, Sony and Toshiba are Japanese companies, are they not? Not only that, there are multiple international players involved with each standard. Oh, I see now, there are no EU companies represented, maybe that's why there's an antitrust probe. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for fair competition and I respect the laws and sovereignty of other nations, but the risk of bureaucratic involvement might be so great that nothing will ever get done. Oh, and by the way, politicians are politicians the world over, so they all speak the lanquage of bribery, not just in the US.
quote:
Unlike States where everything goes as long as enough government agencies are greased up with cash, in Europe this is not possible.
Not possible? I wonder who's really showing their ignorance here.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 3:39:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh, I see now, there are no EU companies represented, maybe that's why there's an antitrust probe.

I don't disagree with your thesis, but I have to correct this statement. Philips, based in the Netherlands, is a format founder for Blu-ray.

http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray-vs-hd-d...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Uncle Sam on 7/28/2006 3:43:17 PM , Rating: 2
Meeting after Tour de France: (Quoted verbatim from meeting minutes)

Klaus: How did amelican ween agaan?

Guillaume: Es Impossible...must be on the drugs...

Klaus: Auf Kourse...ve must test


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By dontfeedme on 7/28/2006 3:54:38 PM , Rating: 2
From what i've read the entire incident with Landis is not being reported correctly, or at least it wasn't yesterday. Everyone was saying he had higher than normal testosterone levels, when in fact they were below average (the total amount). What was out of wack was his testosterone: epitestosterone levels, he had incrediablely low amounts of epitestosterone. This is more representitive of exhaustion and dehydration.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:53:41 PM , Rating: 2
First of all, EU is not a COUNTRY. US is. I should correct myself and say that it's not as easy as in the States to get things greased to get things moving, the reason being is because a lot of countries within EU have representatives on these issues.

Second, what progress are you talking about? It's all about money, we still don't have, not even close the broadband speeds, the mobile technology, the hybrid cars etc as we should. This is because you have big corporations, with huge support from the government and lot of money involved that prevent progress in many cases because it will cost them and they will lose profit.

You need to open your eyes, try to leave the country for a while and live somewhere else outside the US and you might understand what I'm talking about.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By dontfeedme on 7/28/2006 3:57:41 PM , Rating: 2
It think its just as hard to get a southern, conservative christian republican, and a New England super-liberal to work together, as it is to get seperate countries (im just joking).


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Chernobyl68 on 7/28/2006 6:10:39 PM , Rating: 2
no, that sounds about right. thats why there's no high speed rail in the US, the feds left it up to the states who can't get together on anything.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 8:04:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
no, that sounds about right. thats why there's no high speed rail in the US, the feds left it up to the states who can't get together on anything.

The fact of the matter is that the American people have little interest in a rail system. An extensive rail system in a country the size of the US doesn't make much sense anyway, except maybe for fright.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:52:14 PM , Rating: 2
> "we still don't have, not even close the broadband speeds, the mobile technology, the hybrid cars etc as we should ..."

Primarily because in the US, we adhere less to the philosophy of a patriarchal government that forces what we "should have" upon us.

I could also point out the vast differences in population density between the US and most European nations, and the consequent effect on the feasibility of certain infrastructures. But it seems painfully clear that, despite your lofty pronunciations of the "wideness" of your viewpoint, you have less interest in dispelling your ignorance than the average American.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 5:02:08 PM , Rating: 1
Primarily because in the US, we adhere less to the philosophy of a patriarchal government that forces what we "should have" upon us.

Not true, you are not seeing progress in technology, bio-ecological awareness and things that are in general beneficial for everyone living in the States, because Verizon wireless, Sprint and whatever else communication companies, GM, Oil companies tend to lose a lot of money to raise the standard. They will do it eventually, but only unless they milk more money out of you and me and then they will bring something that's already out there, so they can make more money out of us.

This means that technology, environment and other things are exclusively fueled by money and greed of private corporations with complete disregard for what's good for consumer.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 5:47:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This means that technology, environment and other things are exclusively fueled by money and greed of private corporations with complete disregard for what's good for consumer.

Well, you're starting to get a clue, almost. You see, here is how it works in a capitalistic society. Consumers have needs, and they have money, so there is a demand for something. Companies, desiring money, decide to supply something that consumers want/need. Companies need labor, and people need money, so they work for corporations. This is how consumers get what they want/need and how corporations get what they want/need. Do you understand this? Do I need to repeat it for you with smaller words?

Greed is good. Greed is what drives innovation. Greed is what drives productivity. Greed is what drives innovation. Greed is what drives progress. Greed is good. Greed is good. Repeat after me.

What is bad is lazy citizens, sitting around, not willing to earn what they want/need, expecting to be taken care of by the government. Or worse, by corporations. You realize this is what you are saying, right - that corporations have the responsibility to take care of people? That is complete bullshit. People have to take care of themselves. If people have less incentive to get off their lazy butts and do something, then they will be lazy. That is human nature.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Chernobyl68 on 7/28/2006 6:28:46 PM , Rating: 2
Go Gordon Gecko!


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 6:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
Are you reading at all what I'm writing? Jesus.

I never said that capitalism system is bad, unfortunately today it has infiltrated the government on account of greed from corporations to get it their own way and not lose money. This is not right at all. It means they go beyond what people want to make more money.

Today less and less people know what's good for them, they don't vote etc, simply because they lack education. Just look at what's going on today in the States. How many people votes for anything. It's horrifying.

With this in mind, corporations and government get away with pretty much anything they want. What's the usual answer from any american I ask? "Dude, I don't care about politics, I have bills to pay". Do you see how wrong this is?

You average family doesn't have any of the things you listed (401k, pension funds etc). Maybe yours, but not majority, read the newspapers dealing with this issue. Social security is another rising issue. Why are we paying these things when you don't get anything back. Somebody is spending this money.

There are western european countries that are capitalist and yet they have more progressive industries because the government does it's job and prevents personal interests to stand in the way of progression.

I'll ask you, can you fight any of these corporations if they do something against your interest? I don't want to go into discussions how many people don't get judgments against corporations simply because they don't have enough funds to fight.

I'll give you another example of complete violition of people's right in the States.

The new law, that will favor corporations over people if they turn out to generate more taxes. For example, they can take your house, give you "market" value of the house, even though we both know it's not going to be true value, since they won't take in consideration how much money was invested in that house or what type of personal value it has for an individual and they will give that land to a corporation like Wallmart for example because they will generate more taxes then you would. You have absolutely NO RIGHTS in this matter.

I'd hate to see that happen to you. I would ask you if your idea of greed is good would be so appealing.

Also, I would also like to hear from you when exactly greed did fuel progression? Today all I see is that greed is limiting progression because they gain to lose more money keeping in track with the new technology then to make.

Not only that, but these same corporations will do everything in their power to prevent competition from smaller companies that might prevent their revenues. Again, with the help of the government in one way or the other.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 7:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
> "You average family doesn't have any of the things you listed (401k, pension funds etc). Maybe yours, but not majority, read the newspapers"

Please, sir, I beg you. Correct your ignorance. 45% of *all* households in the US participate in a 401(k) plan. When you add in pension funds, the figure rises to 56%. When you consider only middle-class households (the group I mentioned) the figure rises sharply...most low-income households do not participate.

> "Social security is another rising issue. Why are we paying these things when you don't get anything back"

Err, where are you getting this misinformation? Pretty much every US citizen of retirement age collects social security. The majority of them collect more than they put in, due to the "bottom-loading" nature of the rate payouts.

> "I'll give you another example of complete violition of people's right in the States"

Your example is indeed an excellent one. But its not a problem with corporations or free enterprise, its a problem with unrestrained government. Only the government has the power of eminent domain, to seize your land and property without your permission.

This entire thread has been, at its heart, about the issue of unrestrained EU governmental action. A problem that, I agree, the US does suffer from as well, from time to time.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:37:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Today less and less people know what's good for them, they don't vote etc, simply because they lack education. Just look at what's going on today in the States. How many people votes for anything. It's horrifying.

Low voter turnout is a fact of life for many established democracies. Do some google searches and you will find people concerned with low turnout not just in the U.S., but also countries like Canada and the U.K.
quote:
With this in mind, corporations and government get away with pretty much anything they want. What's the usual answer from any american I ask? "Dude, I don't care about politics, I have bills to pay". Do you see how wrong this is?

The observation is totally incorrect. Quite to the contrary, there are tons of people and organizations that monitor every move the government and many corporations make. For example, there are tons of political action groups that work actively towards certain goals, and to achieve this, they enlist and actively engage large numbers of Americans in their pursuit. On the corporate side, there are tons of people monitoring big companies like IBM, Intel, Sun, Sony, etc. Anything these companies do gets noticed and amplified onto news sites like these.
quote:
There are western european countries that are capitalist and yet they have more progressive industries because the government does it's job and prevents personal interests to stand in the way of progression.

I don't see anything significant that the American government does to stifle innovation, do you? I am sure that it happens sometimes (the American government is huge and is far reaching), but I think the large amount of innovation that happens here is evidence that there is no fundamental problem in this area.
quote:
I'll ask you, can you fight any of these corporations if they do something against your interest? I don't want to go into discussions how many people don't get judgments against corporations simply because they don't have enough funds to fight.

Why would I "fight" a corporation? I am a consumer, and I vote with my wallet. If I don't like a certain company, I purchase from that company's competition instead. If I am harmed by a company, then I take them to court. What's the big deal or problem here? Seems pretty simple to me.
quote:
I'll give you another example of complete violition of people's right in the States.

I agree that this situation is bad, and very "un-American." Frankly, I don't expect this situation to stand the test of time.
quote:
Also, I would also like to hear from you when exactly greed did fuel progression? Today all I see is that greed is limiting progression because they gain to lose more money keeping in track with the new technology then to make.

I assume you are talking about lower-MPG cars. Well, the free market is working perfectly well in this regard. Americans, given a situation with cheap gas, have little overall interest in small, energy-efficient cars. Therefore, manufacturers cater to what Americans want to buy, which are large SUV-type vehicles. As fuel prices rise, however, demand naturally increases to where consumers are more willing to make the sacrifice to have smaller cars, and to also pay for more expensive technologies like hybrid. So with $3.00+ gasoline, you start to see this demand, and you also see manufacturers starting to meet this demand. So, without much interference from the government, everything works out just right. And guess what, if fuel prices should somehow drop back down, then Americans will want their bigger vehicles. You can argue that it is somehow immoral or whatever, but that is just your value system. I personally feel that people should be free to drive whatever they want, and not be forced into something by the government, such as the situation that has existed for a long time in Europe where folks are effectively forced into small cars due to the burden of extremely high gas taxes.
quote:
Not only that, but these same corporations will do everything in their power to prevent competition from smaller companies that might prevent their revenues. Again, with the help of the government in one way or the other.

I'd like to know what examples you are thinking about with this, since I can't really envision it. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the American GDP is produced by small business, not big business. Small businesses are, in general, able to compete and effectively exist in our economy alongside big business. In fact, if anything, the government does a lot to encourage small business in America through tax benefits and loans through the SBA.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Clauzii on 7/28/2006 8:05:12 PM , Rating: 2
Since there is not a door at factories or universities that says: "Suggest new product here!", It's basically not consumers asking.

Today some "Inventer" makes a "Prototype", seeks funds to massproduce it and to BLAST 4 billion commercials a day into peoples head thjat they need this.

I never asked Colgate to change their product - Still they do. According to their own Adds, a couple of times a year their "Formula" gets better. Well If it actually did, I would not have any teeth left, since the "Formula" has gotten better at least SIXTY(!) times in my lifetime.

Do we as consumers ask for this? NOPE!

But competing companies seems to come out whith "NEW & IMPROVED" stuff once in a while to - well - compete.

And there is the whole problem: Competition instead of Collaboration.

- One Love :)


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:48:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Since there is not a door at factories or universities that says: "Suggest new product here!", It's basically not consumers asking.

Companies typically expend a lot of effort to learn from customers what needs their products are meeting, and what needs they are not. And the smart companies go back and work on offering what the customer still needs. This is a normal everyday activity for many companies.
quote:
Today some "Inventer" makes a "Prototype", seeks funds to massproduce it and to BLAST 4 billion commercials a day into peoples head thjat they need this.

So, if someone invents a worthless product, and you hear ads telling you that you need it even though you don't, do you still buy it? Well, I don't. Fools who do deserve to be separated from their money.
quote:
And there is the whole problem: Competition instead of Collaboration.

Competition is bad? Sorry, I don't think so. Competition is what drives one company innovate in order to take sales from another. This is a good thing. Collaboration also has its place, but everyone collaborating with no competion would lead to the end of innovation, because there would be no incentive to innovate in the first place. Maybe you want to live in that groovy kind of world, but not me.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 5:53:39 PM , Rating: 2
> "because Verizon wireless, Sprint and whatever else communication companies, GM, Oil companies tend to lose a lot of money to raise the standard"

This is the point the neo-Socialists never fail to miss. Those public corporations you name? They're owned, by and large, by Americans. Your average middle-class American family has a great deal of money in 401K plans, pension funds, and other investments...money that is mostly invested in shares of publicly-traded companies.

So when you say "American companies don't want to pay", you're saying "American PEOPLE don't want to pay". If a company doesn't immediately invest in a multi-billion dollar infrastructure, its because they've decided the American consumer doesn't want to pay the costs for it. If they guess wrong-- no big deal. Some other company does it, and makes the profit.

Most Socialistic nations are predicated on the illusion of the "free lunch". They decide they want something-- they pass a law, and pretend they can avoid the costs of that decision by shifting the cost to some business. But when you do that to your own businesses-- you wind up paying anyway. Lower wages, higher costs, and/or heavy unemployment.

Unless, of course, the company is foreign. Which explains the billion-dollar Microsoft fine quite handily.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By AmbroseAthan on 7/28/2006 4:54:36 PM , Rating: 2
EU is like the Confederate States of America. Compare the of Confederation and the EU's doctrines together and they are pretty close. It may not be a political state, as defined by politics, but it acts like a Confederacy.

A huge reason for the slow technology build-up, and all of the stuff you comment on, comes from American culture, which often grasps onto new technology slowly compared to other countries. Plus there is the massive size of our country geographically. It takes much more time to build the infrastructure needed for the United States then it does for a country the size of most European Nations. Not to mention it is still more difficult to sell foreign products in the middle of the United States; as much as it is a stereotypical joke, they are the hardy American supporting types based in Marketing. You won't see many Hyundai commercials in rural Kansas.

And yes, I have lived outside of the United States; Northern Scotland for 3 weeks (talk about alot of sheep, not to mention 21 hour days!), and then in London for 2 months. That does not include extensive travelling abroad.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By AmbroseAthan on 7/28/2006 4:56:02 PM , Rating: 2
"Compare the Articales of Confederation..."

stupid no edit... and Masher said alot of my infrastructure stuff ><


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Chernobyl68 on 7/28/2006 6:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
right, as long as it doesn't have to do with ice skating...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:33:20 PM , Rating: 2
Possible or not, it's a fact that there's a lot less corruption in *many* European countries than in the US. Not all European countries, but many, especially western european ones.

Trying to say "Our politicians are corrupt, therefore there can not possibly be any politicians anywhere that aren't" is just rubbish.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:51:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Possible or not, it's a fact that there's a lot less corruption in *many* European countries than in the US. Not all European countries, but many, especially western european ones.

How is that a fact? Please cite your sources and/or raw data? I think this is just your opinion.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 6:45:04 PM , Rating: 2
Tomz, this is what makes you a dangerous individual. You are seeking proof before you doubt the government when it should be the other way around.

People should ALWAYS doubt and question government. First, of course that you won't find proof as obvious as you want it to be because they would all go to jail, so they use everything possible to hide it.

It is your duty as a citizen to always draw conclusions on what you see what's happening. To question whether or why the government is doing what it's doing and whether or not this is good for you in the long run.

I will tell you that a lot of people in the States, in politics as well are completely agreeing that the society in the States as it is is very troubling.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are seeking proof before you doubt the government when it should be the other way around.

No, that's not true. I don't trust the government - what I am saying is that corruption is not a widespread problem. By that I mean that corruption is not an impediment to basic development as it is in some countries, e.g., Mexico.
quote:
People should ALWAYS doubt and question government. First, of course that you won't find proof as obvious as you want it to be because they would all go to jail, so they use everything possible to hide it.

Obviously.
quote:
It is your duty as a citizen to always draw conclusions on what you see what's happening. To question whether or why the government is doing what it's doing and whether or not this is good for you in the long run.

Again, obviously. Where did you get the idea that everyone in America trusts the government. Why do you think we are armed to the teeth?
quote:
I will tell you that a lot of people in the States, in politics as well are completely agreeing that the society in the States as it is is very troubling.

I'm not clear what you're saying here, but I think you are saying that American citizens just go along with whatever the government wants, without forming an informed opinion. If this is what you are stating, here's an example to prove you wrong. What is President Bush's current approval rating? If you were correct, that number would be in the high 90's, right? But in reality, it is in the 30's, meaning that the majority of the American public does not feel that President Bush is doing a good job. Do you consider that to be a sign of a people that follow their government blindly?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:25:16 PM , Rating: 2
> "Tomz, this is what makes you a dangerous individual. You are seeking proof before you doubt the government when it should be the other way around"

And yet, when those in this very thead doubt the motivations of the EU government, you scurry quickly to defend them. Hypocrisy indeed.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 7:01:33 PM , Rating: 1
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 7:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Supporting what he said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption

LOL, from the same article,

However, the value of that survey is disputed, as it is based on subjective perceptions. Sophisticated technology may be available to those countries considered by the public as "least corrupt" to conceal corruption from public view or disguise it as legitimate dealings.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 7:56:52 PM , Rating: 1
I think that's true for most surveys of this kind... You asked for something supporting what he said and I gave it to you... also if I'm not mistaken in Sweden you can check every single expense your leaders do including its dinner bills and flowers if he sends any, and this is accessible to anyone that asks for it.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:12:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think that's true for most surveys of this kind... You asked for something supporting what he said and I gave it to you

The fact is duly noted, and I acknowledge is true, when qualified with "some of the EU nations" have less corruption. I think it should also be clear from the data that there are a number of EU nations with very bad corruption problems, and that if you average the numbers across the entire EU, you'll come up with something quite a bit worse than the US.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:22:29 PM , Rating: 1
No, you dont come with something quite a bit worse, it becomes about the same...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 10:46:06 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, you dont come with something quite a bit worse, it becomes about the same... "

According to the German-based group Transparency International, the following European nations have a higher level of corruption than the US:

France
Belgium
Ireland
Spain
Portugal
Estonia
Malta
Slovenia
Hungary
Italy
Lithuania
Czech Republic
Greece
Slovakia
Latvia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Poland
Romania
Moldava
Bosnia / Herzegovina
Serbia
Montenegro
Macedonia
Belarus
Ukraine


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:55:26 PM , Rating: 1
And who's speaking of European nations... We are speaking of the EU AKA European Union


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 11:29:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And who's speaking of European nations... We are speaking of the EU AKA European Union

The result is the same - some nations with less corruption, but the majority with more corruption. What's your point?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 8:14:09 AM , Rating: 1
My point is that Europe is one thing the EU is another and if you average the corruption levels by taking into account the population of each country then you get something around the same as the US.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
And i think your 'facts' on the EU being corrupt is just equally an opinion, unless you also have proof to backup your claims that the EU politicians are just as corrupt as the US ones?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
> "And i think your 'facts' on the EU being corrupt is just equally an opinion"

The rules of logical debate aren't that complex; if you try I feel confident you can grasp them. The onus of proof rests upon the person making the claim, not the person who challenges it.

TomZ didn't state an opinion, he merely pointed out that the previously stated opinion lacked proof, and therefore could not stand.






RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
> "You forget to mention that it was the US companies that complained to the EU and hence it’s the US companies that will benefit the most from it. "

Lol, what sort of sophomoric attempt of logic is this? A US company (Sun) complained. How do you twist that into the statement that US companies will benefit "the most" from the EU action?

Furthermore, even should it turn out to be the case, your statement is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who benefits the most, it merely matters that European companies benefit at all. Any positive benefit is better than nothing...and any increase in European revenues goes straight into the EU tax base.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 7:23:57 PM , Rating: 1
Seems logic to me that the one that complains the most is the one that will benefit the most...

"your statement is irrelevant."
No your statement is irrelevant mine just points out what you hide...

"it merely matters that European companies benefit at all."
How about giving names and actual reports or something, or is that just your opinion?

"Any positive benefit is better than nothing...and any increase in European revenues goes straight into the EU tax base."
And ?... the WTO is made so countries don’t do that kind of thing, did you see MS complaining to them and they ruling in favor of MS ? ... and lets not speak of the countless taxes the US forced onto Taiwanese or Japanese companies when they didn’t play by the rules... but you're right any increase in US revenues goes straight into the US tax base (maybe), most countries do this kind of thing all the time… I really fail to see why you guys whine about the EU when your own country does EXACTLY the same thing.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By INeedCache on 7/28/2006 3:36:25 PM , Rating: 2
Being a bit self-righteous and defensive, aren't we? True, most Americans do have a smug, haughty attitude, which doesn't play well with the rest of the world. That's not the issue. The issue is the EU apparently feels it can, and should, legislate all business into a perfect market of competition. If one company pulls way ahead of others, we go after them to level the playing field. Microsoft is a perfect example. And don't give me that garbage about Microsoft getting what they deserve. This thread is not about them but they are being unfairly persecuted. You cannot simply bully companies into an existence of equal market distribution for all. Well, you can, but it's not right. Also, you make it sound like everything in America is corrupt, and nothing, or no one, is in Europe because it's just not possible. People are people no matter where they live, what language they speak, and what look like. If you think corruption and favoritism is not possible within the EU, you better think again, long and hard. Please don't take this as a defense of America, it's not. But you make the EU out to be pure as new-fallen snow. I don't think so.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:02:12 PM , Rating: 2
First of all kid, I live in the States and I lived in the Europe and I have a bit more background through which I can discuss both systems.

What the hell are you talking about suing for money. This is not about money it's about protecting consumers in the long run.

Last time I checked European Union had stronger currency, solid economy and overall better quality technology companies.

It is very typical from an American to think that US and everything that comes from it is god given, and yet the government here is exploiting in every way possible it's citizens, everything IS ABOUT MONEY, no humane values at all, if you have more money you are more important then someone who doesn't have money etc. It's a joke.

And people are people thing is simply not true. You cannot comment on world things, or economies or other countries when you never left your own country and seen anything else. It's completely hypocritical and ignorant. You just keep assuming and assuming and when you do that you are make an ASS out of you and me and I don't like that.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:11:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
First of all kid, I live in the States and I lived in the Europe and I have a bit more background through which I can discuss both systems.

This experience, however, doesn't seem to give you any objectivity or any ability to see facts straight.
quote:
Last time I checked European Union had stronger currency, solid economy and overall better quality technology companies.

This makes no sense - how do you define and measure "stronger currency," "solid economy," and "better quality technology companies"? These are totally subjective/biased judgements. I could make the same statements about any other country, and they would be equally meaningless.
quote:
It is very typical from an American to think that US and everything that comes from it is god given, and yet the government here is exploiting in every way possible it's citizens, everything IS ABOUT MONEY, no humane values at all, if you have more money you are more important then someone who doesn't have money etc. It's a joke.

Again, as I stated in another post, you have no insight into the character of a typical American. Zero, none, period. Your conclusions are dead wrong because of this.
quote:
And people are people thing is simply not true. You cannot comment on world things, or economies or other countries when you never left your own country and seen anything else. It's completely hypocritical and ignorant. You just keep assuming and assuming and when you do that you are make an ASS out of you and me and I don't like that.

Again, your assumptions and stereotypes are what make your comments so wrong. You are making an ass out of yourself, not anyone else.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:39:00 PM , Rating: 2
1 Euro = 1.275 dollars

Mobile and broadband technology is way ahead of anything in the states.

Nokia, Philips, Siemens, Sony-Ericsson are not American companies.

Broadband in Europe and the rest of the world is at much higher level then in the States.

These are not subjective, they are FACTS.



Again, as I stated in another post, you have no insight into the character of a typical American. Zero, none, period. Your conclusions are dead wrong because of this.

If you don't see things that I pointed out then you truly live in denial. Starting from insurance companies, oil companies, healthcare are all completely inhumane and against the people here. Not to go into the discussion of taxes and what you spend your money on that you have no insight in.
God forbid something happens to you that you have to go the hospital, you are screwed, of course unless you have money. This makes a life of someone who is richer more important since it is obvious they can afford it. Others will definitely get screwed over.

You see unlike United states for example Europe and other countries concentrate on preventing health problems, only in the United States you are covered by insurance only when you are already sick. It's very clear why this is the case. It's because they can't make money off of you if you are healthy.

For example, if you wanted to go for a complete checkup, scans etc to make sure you are completely healthy, which should be a normal thing for every individual as prevention, your health insurance will not cover it and you will have to pay thousands out of your own pocket for this. Of course, a lot of people don't have this luxury.

This is just one example of what's wrong here. But you obviously think that's quite alright. For me, it's completely apsurd and inhumane.


Again, your assumptions and stereotypes are what make your comments so wrong. You are making an ass out of yourself, not anyone else.

These are not assumptions, 90% of the people I've met NEVER left their states, there are no family values at all in the society because 90% of the people again are raised with only 1 parent. Again, these are not assumptions these are facts, that actually a lot of people agree with. I don't know where you live dude, but you should definitely wake up.




RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By AmbroseAthan on 7/28/2006 5:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You see unlike United states for example Europe and other countries concentrate on preventing health problems, only in the United States you are covered by insurance only when you are already sick. It's very clear why this is the case. It's because they can't make money off of you if you are healthy.

For example, if you wanted to go for a complete checkup, scans etc to make sure you are completely healthy, which should be a normal thing for every individual as prevention, your health insurance will not cover it and you will have to pay thousands out of your own pocket for this. Of course, a lot of people don't have this luxury.


First off... WTF?

Second... Where on earth did you find this sort of information? My insurance, provided through work (like most Americans) covers basically anything that could happen to me. This includes check-ups. I often have to pay a co-fee of like $20 dollars, but that is not much money to be paying for a complete check-up, or full dental exam, etc etc. Anyone I know, who has individual insurance or through their employer is provided basically the same things. Being sick would only hinder getting you insurance; it sure wouldn't help you.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 5:06:42 PM , Rating: 1
Go try to get EKG, or other type of scans to make sure that you are completely healthy and then try to do co-pay. You'll be unpleasantly surprised. I live in the States and I actually went for this type of checkup and not just blood analysis or blood pressure checkups, and it cost me $4500 even though I have full full medical insurance. I do make good money as well so this was not a problem, but it is completely absurd.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:00:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Go try to get EKG, or other type of scans to make sure that you are completely healthy and then try to do co-pay. You'll be unpleasantly surprised. I live in the States and I actually went for this type of checkup and not just blood analysis or blood pressure checkups, and it cost me $4500 even though I have full full medical insurance...


Interestingly enough, I had to have a series of EKGs, an echocardiogram, and a perfusion stress test just last year. The EKGs were only a couple hundred each. The Echocardiogram was the expensive one-- $3000 for it alone. My sum total for everything after insurance? Two $30 copays....so I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. And I'm not sure why you feel its relevant either. We're all well aware that many European nations have chosen to exchange their freedom for free dentures. We in the US chose a different route.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 6:52:12 PM , Rating: 2
I hope you don't get sick. I'll ask you what you think about this if it god forbid this happens. When you can't pay for insurance, you don't work since you are sick and you are pretty much fucked.

How exactly do people in Europe sacrifice their freedom for free dentures. By paying for humane and quality healthcare through their taxes? That's what you do to, no difference, only you have no idea where your money goes.

You are completely ignorant. Just go back in live in your fairy tale.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 11:01:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I hope you don't get sick. I'll ask you what you think about this if it god forbid this happens. When you can't pay for insurance, you don't work since you are sick and you are pretty much fucked. ... You are completely ignorant. Just go back in live in your fairy tale.

It is so ironic that you make ignorant statements, and then claim I am ignorant.

There are different types of insurance. Some types of insurance require medical certification, while others don't. If someone has a serious medical condition and cannot be approved for insurance, they can take out a (higher-priced) policy that requires no certification.

BTW, the company I work for has this type of insurance, that requires no medical certification.

Anything else that I am ignorant about, that I can fill you in on?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 6:04:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Go try to get EKG, or other type of scans to make sure that you are completely healthy and then try to do co-pay. You'll be unpleasantly surprised. I live in the States and I actually went for this type of checkup and not just blood analysis or blood pressure checkups, and it cost me $4500 even though I have full full medical insurance. I do make good money as well so this was not a problem, but it is completely absurd.

Sorry, but by my way of thinking, this is a $4500 waste of money. What gives you any reason to believe that such tests make you more healthy? You could have a head-to-toe scan today, and start to develop cancer tomorrow. You could have an EKG today, and a heart attack tomorrow.

What studies do you have that show that such expenditures lead to better health and/or longer life? I think they only give you the feeling of the same.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bob661 on 7/29/2006 2:05:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Go try to get EKG, or other type of scans to make sure that you are completely healthy and then try to do co-pay.
I had one (EKG) in January of this year and didn't have to pay a dime for it.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 5:33:28 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
1 Euro = 1.275 dollars

Sorry, you know nothing about currency. 1 Euro = 126 Japanese Yen. What do you conclude about that? Sorry, you are showing your ignorance here.
quote:
Mobile and broadband technology is way ahead of anything in the states.

I think this was already addressed by others. If your entire country is the size of one of our 50 states, this lowers the cost of such endeavors "just a little." Have you traveled the United States much? Been out west? Been down south, out East, through the midwest. America is massive.
quote:
Nokia, Philips, Siemens, Sony-Ericsson are not American companies.

Intel, Microsoft, IBM, AT&T, and Motorola are. What is the point? What fact are you referring to? How did you figure out that, for example, Nokia is "better" than Motorola? That makes no sense at all.
quote:
God forbid something happens to you that you have to go the hospital, you are screwed, of course unless you have money. This makes a life of someone who is richer more important since it is obvious they can afford it. Others will definitely get screwed over.

Most of what you say here makes no sense to me. Medical care, just like having money in the first place, is not something that we are entitled to just because we exist, in this country. These are things we have to earn. As pointed out by other posters, medical insurance is paid for by many employers, and does cover prevention. The reason for the latter is that unhealthy people drive up medical costs down the road - this should be obvious. Also, the hallmark of our insurance-based sysetm is its efficiency, and so covering unnecessary procedures like some of the "preemptive" scans you discussed should not be covered. Instead, what is covered is what makes sense, based on the risks. For example, due to certain circumstances, I have a higher risk of a certain type of cancer, and in this case, because it is recommended by my doctor, my insurance covers the cost of medical imaging to make sure that I don't develop that. This is rational and reasonable. Full body scans, EKGs without any cause, etc. are not sensible.
quote:
These are not assumptions, 90% of the people I've met NEVER left their states, there are no family values at all in the society because 90% of the people again are raised with only 1 parent. Again, these are not assumptions these are facts, that actually a lot of people agree with. I don't know where you live dude, but you should definitely wake up.

Well, sorry, I am awake, and these are not the facts. 90% never left their state? 90% raised with 1 parent? You are like a walking random statistic-generating machine. Please show your sources for these statistics if you want to try to re-gain even a shred of credibility in this debate.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 7:03:15 PM , Rating: 2
Most of what you say here makes no sense to me. Medical care, just like having money in the first place, is not something that we are entitled to just because we exist, in this country

You see this statement right there makes it clear what type of individual you are. How are we not entitled to be healthy and taken care of?

Listen, I'll end this hopeless debate by just saying this:
When you get sick, it gets noted on your record, after that you will have hard time getting insurance at all which results in your health worsening and you are left to figure out a way how not to die.

I just hope this doesn't happen to you. You are probably very young, so you are not thinking about this now, but it will come, trust me. Then I'll ask you how great the system is. It's very easy to make comments like yours when it doesn't hit you personally. When it does most people become hypocrits and start agreeing with things they were defending so hard. This is maybe the worse thing with a huge number of americans.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Eris23007 on 7/28/2006 8:12:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You see this statement right there makes it clear what type of individual you are. How are we not entitled to be healthy and taken care of?


Because noone, nowhere, EVER, is entitled to anything but life, liberty, and self determination. No human is responsible for any other human than those for whom he or she freely chooses to assume responsibility, e.g. spouse, children, parents, etc.

The moment you learn this basic fundamental truth of human reality is the moment you will begin to understand the arguments of myself, masher, TomZ, and others. Attempts to utilize state power to force one group of people to assume responsibility for another group of people (e.g. welfare, socialized medicine, etc.) result inexorably in a complacent population. This is a huge problem in the States... but not so much as it is in Europe due to its Socialist leanings.

And before you bother to engage in further ad hominem attacks, yes, I have traveled both inside and outside of the US extensively. It does not affect my ability to use reason and objectivity to argue my views, nor my ability to detect your own lack thereof. You state that one is incapable of holding a reasoned viewpoint without having traveled. How, then, were Socrates, Plato or Aristotle able to formulate reasoned viewpoints, when their exposure was solely to Ancient Greek culture? Do you deny their contributions to western philosophy?

/with all due credit to Ayn Rand


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 9:20:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because noone, nowhere, EVER, is entitled to anything but life, liberty, and self determination.


I would like to know said that and what makes it a rule of thumb, even if it's true, however that makes you an uncompassionate, selfish individual. Not only that, but what I'm talking about is actually about preserving life of others not so fortunate to have money to cure themselves. This rule might be valid if we lived in a society where everyone could afford dealing with health issues. And this is exactly what I was addressing when I mentioned that a lot of US citizens feel like this and are selfish and uncompassionate.

Again, people like you lack to see the bigger picture because they probably never experienced the bad side of the things you are preaching. It's easy to talk about things when you don't get to feel them, but once you do, then you question it yourself and in a lot of cases go against it.

This has nothing to do with socialism. It has everything to do with the fact that we are human.

Money is nothing, human life, family and avoiding suffering is everything that counts and makes ones life fulfilled.

This is what happens when you have a nation without culture or history, yet you dare to interpret in your own way meaning of words of people who lived much longer then this nation exists.

I don't have enough time to get into philosopies of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle because you should definitely explore this a bit more to understand what they were trying to say during their lives. Also, they were coming to conlusions based on their society they lived in, and which transfered a lot of it to our European way of life. So they did indeed lived it.

The bottom line is that it is hopeless to discuss this with you or others who don't understand this, simply because you are raised in a completely materialistic, selfish and uncompassionate manner. You were tought that it's only you and you and nothing else which is a very dangerous way of looking at life.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would like to know said that and what makes it a rule of thumb, even if it's true, however that makes you an uncompassionate, selfish individual.

Yes, that's right. You are a quick learner. Please explain to me, however, what problem you see with that. From my view, if I work hard to get what I need and want from others, trading the fruits of my efforts with those, and demand nothing from those who owe me nothing, then how is that immoral?
quote:
Not only that, but what I'm talking about is actually about preserving life of others not so fortunate to have money to cure themselves.

Why am I expected to be responsible for others in this way, against my will, with a gun pointed to my head? Don't you see this is the biggest problem with governments in general? I realize this is the reality of our society, but it is quite a deviation from ideal.
quote:
And this is exactly what I was addressing when I mentioned that a lot of US citizens feel like this and are selfish and uncompassionate.

I think that Americans try to put their own needs ahead of that of others, expecting that others will do the same. That is a rational system of values, in my opinion. If I choose to put the needs of another ahead of myself, then that should be done by my choice, and not forced upon me by anyone.
quote:
This is what happens when you have a nation without culture or history, yet you dare to interpret in your own way meaning of words of people who lived much longer then this nation exists.

Sorry, this is an ad hominem argument, which doesn't convince me of anything. Your presumption is also wrong, that America has no culture and no history, and shame on you for suggesting otherwise. Go do your research and come back when you are more well-informed.
quote:
I don't have enough time to get into philosopies of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle because you should definitely explore this a bit more to understand what they were trying to say during their lives. Also, they were coming to conlusions based on their society they lived in, and which transfered a lot of it to our European way of life. So they did indeed lived it.

I think you fail to realize that these philosophers lived in very different times, and you at the same time seem to ignore more relevant and sophisticated views such as those by Ayn Rand as referenced by Eris23007.
quote:
The bottom line is that it is hopeless to discuss this with you or others who don't understand this, simply because you are raised in a completely materialistic, selfish and uncompassionate manner. You were tought that it's only you and you and nothing else which is a very dangerous way of looking at life.

I agree with everything you say. It is a dangerous way of life - it is dangerous to those who feel they can control and manipulate the will of others into feeling responsible for their welfare. Compassion for others is fine when it is a choice, but it is wrong when it is forced upon you through the types of views you are advocating.

I totally agree with Eris23007, that you will never understand nor appreciate this viewpoint. You believe in entitlement and receiving benefits just because you are alive. I believe that I deserve nothing except that which I earn through my own effort. You believe that you should put others' needs ahead of yours, to subvert what you want and need for the good of society. I believe that my society's best interests are served when I seek out and earn what I want and need selfishly. These are very different views.

Eris23007 and I mentioned Ayn Rand, and some of these views might be called "Objectivism." If you really want to understand some of these views, for whatever reason, try these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Ra...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

BTW, Atlas Shrugged is an excellent book.
quote:
I would like to know said that and what makes it a rule of thumb, even if it's true, however that makes you an uncompassionate, selfish individual.

Yes, that's right. You are a quick learner. Please explain to me, however, what problem you see with that. From my view, if I work hard to get what I need and want from others, trading the fruits of my efforts with those, and demand nothing from those who owe me nothing, then how is that immoral?
quote:
Not only that, but what I'm talking about is actually about preserving life of others not so fortunate to have money to cure themselves.

Why am I expected to be responsible for others in this way, against my will, with a gun pointed to my head? Don't you see this is the biggest problem with governments in general? I realize this is the reality of our society, but it is quite a deviation from ideal.
quote:
And this is exactly what I was addressing when I mentioned that a lot of US citizens feel like this and are selfish and uncompassionate.

I think that Americans try to put their own needs ahead of that of others, expecting that others will do the same. That is a rational system of values, in my opinion. If I choose to put the needs of another ahead of myself, then that should be done by my choice, and not forced upon me by anyone.
quote:
This is what happens when you have a nation without culture or history, yet you dare to interpret in your own way meaning of words of people who lived much longer then this nation exists.

Sorry, this is an ad hominem argument, which doesn't convince me of anything. Your presumption is also wrong, that America has no culture and no history, and shame on you for suggesting otherwise. Go do your research and come back when you are more well-informed.
quote:
I don't have enough time to get into philosopies of Socrates, Plato or Aristotle because you should definitely explore this a bit more to understand what they were trying to say during their lives. Also, they were coming to conlusions based on their society they lived in, and which transfered a lot of it to our European way of life. So they did indeed lived it.

I think you fail to realize that these philosophers lived in very different times, and you at the same time seem to ignore more relevant and sophisticated views such as those by Ayn Rand as referenced by Eris23007.
quote:
The bottom line is that it is hopeless to discuss this with you or others who don't understand this, simply because you are raised in a completely materialistic, selfish and uncompassionate manner. You were tought that it's only you and you and nothing else which is a very dangerous way of looking at life.

I agree with everything you say. It is a dangerous way of life - it is dangerous to those who feel they can control and manipulate the will of others into feeling responsible for their welfare. Compassion for others is fine when it is a choice, but it is wrong when it is forced upon you through the types of views you are advocating.

I totally agree with Eris23007, that you will never understand nor appreciate this viewpoint. You believe in entitlement and receiving benefits just because you are alive. I believe that I deserve nothing except that which I earn through my own effort. You believe that you should put others' needs ahead of yours, to subvert what you want and need for the good of society. I believe that my society's best interests are served when I seek out and earn what I want and need selfishly. These are very different views.

Eris23007 and I mentioned Ayn Rand, and some of these views might be called "Objectivism." If you really want to understand some of these views, for whatever reason, try these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Ra...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

BTW, Atlas Shrugged is an excellent book.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
My apologies for the double-paste I did in the message above.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 10:58:33 PM , Rating: 2
> I would like to know said that and what makes it a rule of thumb"

Glad to oblige you. When you say a person "deserves" to be healthy and to be taken care of, you forget on thing. Heath care-- or care of any sort-- comes from other people. The "rights" of one person therefore come at the expense of the freedom of another.

Imagine a small island nation, consisting of 1000 destitute beggars and one doctor. A law is passed "entitling" everyone to free heath care. You now have institutionalized slavery.

Life and Liberty are rights that people can exercise without forcing other people into slave labor. The "right" to health care or free housing is a very different matter. Someone has to provide that care and build those houses. Either your force them to do it, or you pay them...with money forcibly taken from others. You rob Peter to pay Paul..but the end result is the same.

> "Again, people like you lack to see the bigger picture because they probably never experienced the bad side of the things you are preaching"

You're the same chap who told me I'd "probably" never left the US aren't you? And the one who claimed war was never justified? I see you failed to respond to my earlier points...what are you afraid of?





RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 7:08:38 PM , Rating: 1
When it does most people become hypocrits and start agreeing with things they were defending so hard. This is maybe the worse thing with a huge number of americans.

Correction:
I meant disagreeing with things they were defending so hard.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1 Euro = 1.275 dollars


Sorry, you know nothing about currency. 1 Euro = 126 Japanese Yen. What do you conclude about that? Sorry, you are showing your ignorance here.

No, what i think he was trying to hint at is that currency goes further in the EU than in the US, in terms of buying power.

I myself doubt this is the case, however, you cant deny that certain areas of the EU, particularly the UK are in a healthy economic postition (in the short term - but thats a different matter) compared to the US, with the exchange rate helping to maintain this as it shields us from any rises in fuel prices, avoiding price rises and, therefore, inflation.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 7:50:26 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, what i think he was trying to hint at is that currency goes further in the EU than in the US, in terms of buying power."

Exchange rate is meaningless in terms of buying power. For decades, the Soviet Union artificially held the ruble exchange rate above that of the dollar. People still couldn't buy anything...but the ruble appeared to be a strong currency, and, by corrolary, the Soviet economy appeared strong as well. At least to anyone who didn't understand basic economics.

Once the ruble was allowed to float, its value sunk overnight. Eventually it became so low the Russian government had to reissue "new rubles" that were 1,000 times more valuable than the old ones. That raised the exchange rate by the same factor...but the buying power of the people was unchanged.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:02:40 PM , Rating: 2
you see if you'd read my whole post you would have realised that your post was useless


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:10:09 PM , Rating: 2
> "you see if you'd read my whole post you would have realised that your post was useless "

I read your entire post, you said you 'doubted' the higher exchange rate seriously affected buying power. I went further and demonstrated it has no effect whatsoever.

You also stated (incorrectly, I might add) that the higher exchange rate 'insulates' you from rises in fuel prices. It does not....your high fuel tax rates do, however. The cost of oil is a small fraction of the pump price of a gallon of gasoline in most European nations. So oil price volatility is filtered out dramatically.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:16:55 PM , Rating: 2
fuel prices are in dollars, due to the weaker dollar in comparison to the pound, yes it does shield us, to some degree from higher fuel prices, of course there are other factors at work here too.

Taxes have remained unchanged. Incidentally.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:24:05 PM , Rating: 2
> "fuel prices are in dollars, due to the weaker dollar in comparison to the pound, yes it does shield us...Taxes have remained unchanged"

I'm sorry, you still miss the basic point. If the US were to issue a "new dollar" tomorrow valued at 10X the old rate, the EU's exchange rate would drop against it by the same factor. However, your fuel prices would remain unchanged, and you'd still have the same level of insulation from petroleum price volatility.

Your high tax rate insulates you because the majority of the pump price is taxes. So when oil prices rise and tax rate stay the same-- the pump price is affected relatively little. When the cost of oil is 25% of the pump price, a 20% rise in oil only causes a 5% rise in retail gas prices.

Make sense now?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
i'm sorry but you're actually wrong. I cant put it more simply than that.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:41:06 PM , Rating: 2
Your saying so doesn't make it true unfortunately. What you're doing is confusing a strong currency with a high exchange rate.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 10:40:20 AM , Rating: 2
No, what you're doing is making a prat of yourself.


Get Your Facts Straight bozilla
By Rotorblade on 7/28/2006 6:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like you need to do a little "fact" checking yourself and stop making such all-encompassing statements in your arguments.

quote:
Broadband in Europe and the rest of the world is at much higher level then in the States.


While the level of broadband technology and use is higher in most EU countries, America's is certainly not bad. Also, I'm pretty sure it is safe to assume that the broadband in America is at a "higher level" than that of many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia, Latin America, South America and Antarctica. Correct me if I'm wrong, but each of those regions were part of the world last time I checked.

quote:
You see unlike United states for example Europe and other countries concentrate on preventing health problems, only in the United States you are covered by insurance only when you are already sick. It's very clear why this is the case. It's because they can't make money off of you if you are healthy.


As for health insurance, you need to find a new provider. I just recently went in for a full checkup, preventative blood tests and a few vaccine booster shots. What did I have to pay out of pocket? Only ten bucks for the doctor's co-pay and less than $50 total for the rest. My father just had a CT scan for preventive purposes and it cost him around thiry bucks. While those are not EKGs, they are way less than your apparent $4,500 bill. Both of us have insurance provided by our workplaces.

quote:
These are not assumptions, 90% of the people I've met NEVER left their states


I'm going to assume you live on the East coast of the US. Most of the people I've met over there have never left their respective states. However, I live in California and I have NEVER met a single person who lives here who has not lived in another state in America. Furthermore, more than 90% of the people I know from California have been out of the country at some time or another.

quote:
there are no family values at all in the society because 90% of the people again are raised with only 1 parent.


Ninety percent of Americans are raised with only one parent? Now that is something I find pretty hard to believe seeing as how I only know one person who grew up in a broken home. So I decided to look it up - and guess what I found? Divorce rates in America are far less than most European countries. Amazing, isn't it? In Sweden for example, the divorce rates are at 64% - the third highest rate in the world. The Czech Republic, Belgium and Finland are also in the 55-65% range.

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, only 3.7 people per 1000 end up getting divorced in the United States. A little shy of the 90% you quoted. You should really stop making assumptions before you spew more drivel around here.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bob661 on 7/29/2006 2:07:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1 Euro = 1.275 dollars
$300 USD for a video card = 300 euros for that same card.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By michal1980 on 7/28/06, Rating: -1
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:24:43 PM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds

The creator of the Linux Kernel. Such its not the de facto standard OS but it is a great OS none-the-less.

Both Formats actually come from mostly non-american companies.

Blu-Ray:
# Hitachi
# LG Electronics
# Mitsubishi Electric
# Panasonic (Matsushita Electric)
# Pioneer Corporation
# Royal Philips Electronics
# Samsung Electronics
# Sharp Corporation
# Sony Corporation
# TDK Corporation
# Thomson
# Twentieth Century Fox (not american anymore, Austrailian)

HD-DVD:
# Toshiba
# NEC
# Sanyo

There are more, but as you can see these formats clearly didn't come from American shors but rather Japan and other Asian countries.

Next time try getting your facts straight before you go into all-american patriotic mode.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By aos007 on 7/28/2006 7:06:36 PM , Rating: 2
I thought GNU stuff is open source. As such it'd be developed by people all over the world, not just US. Even though I'd imagine students from various US universities would account for >50% of the total.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 7:57:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Next time try getting your facts straight before you go into all-american patriotic mode.

You are totally clueless. Please re-read what the OP wrote. There is no pro-American message there. It is only in your mind.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:58:01 PM , Rating: 2
> "The creator of the Linux Kernel. Such its not the de facto standard OS but it is a great OS none-the-less."

Linux, I'm sure you know, sprung from a reverse-engineered Unix kernel, and a set of GNU compilers, libraries, and utilities. Both of which were developed in the US. So what's your point? Linux isn't exactly generating a huge amount of taxable profits for the EU, now is it? The Microsoft fines alone are larger than everything the EU is likely to make from the first two decades of Linux's existence.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 11:24:30 PM , Rating: 1
"These two formats are 2 months old, and already are being sued? Come on."
First they ARENT being sued and secondly better do it sooner than later, if everyone worked like this you wouldn’t see companies getting millions when suing another...

"kind of like no european countires came up with a great operating system like M$"
Plenty, there are many EU companies that work with the Linux kernel to make a fairly easy to use OS.

"You sue for money. "
The US does the same all the time, I really don’t understand why you complain, I could bet in the last 10 years the US got a lot more money from this kind of fines than the EU.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:26:09 PM , Rating: 2
> "Europe has their own companies to protect from united giants..."

Despite which, European consumers pay higher prices for consumer goods than the US....and average lower wages and higher unemployment to boot.

Seems all this "protection" of the consumer doesn't help as much as you think.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:41:55 PM , Rating: 2
"Despite which, European consumers pay higher prices for consumer goods than the US....and average lower wages and higher unemployment to boot. "
Okaaay, are you going to back that claim up?

Just an example here. Denmark: One of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. Higher wages than in the US. And yes, higher prices on many goods too. So you got one out of three right.
In other parts of Europe, prices are a lot lower than in the US. Just as wages are.

Maybe someone should actually do some research before bashing the non-American part of the world. I know, it's hard to fathom that there are people who, in some specialized areas (such as the place they live in) actually know more than americans. Shocking, but true.

And to all the people going "OMGWTFBBQ! EU is suing again!", try r-e-a-d-i-n-g the goddamn article. The EU is not suing. Repeat after me, "this is not a lawsuit".

It is a simple matter of "The EU has found that some of the terms in the licensing rules for the two formats, need to be investigated further to determine if they are legal in the EU."


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 5:28:51 PM , Rating: 3
> "Just an example here. Denmark: One of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. Higher wages than in the US. And yes, higher prices on many goods too. So you got one out of three right."

Oops. Danish unemployment stands at 5.5% as of the end of 2005 (most recent I found). US unemployment is 4.6%.
The average rate for the entire EU is, as of EOY 2005 is 9.4%. Far, far higher than the US. In 1994, btw, Danish unemployment was an astounding 12.3%....so I think we can call the current low peak somewhat unusual, to say the least.




RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:27:01 PM , Rating: 2
i see no links.

i could easily say that the US has 20.4% unemployment rate and the rate of growth in the US is at -3.7%

Without links from an official, independant source, i find your statement laughable masher2.

Next time have proof to back up, not some (possibly made-up) figures.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:33:28 PM , Rating: 2
> "Without links from an official, independant source, i find your statement laughable "

Do you need training on how to use Google? My figures are accurate. The previous poster not only distorted my original statement about average conditions within the EU by "cherry picking" one of the most prosperous nations, he got his facts wrong as well. Denmark's unemployment is higher than the US, and so are its consumer prices. Comparing income is more difficult due to the myriad ways its can be quantized...but it you take into account Denmark's staggering tax load, its going to lose there regardless as well.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By aos007 on 7/28/2006 6:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
His figures are fine... The problem is that they're worthless. American statistics bases unemployment on the number of unemployment claims, not on the actual number of people looking for work. True, it's not possible to get the true number unless you have some kind of agency where you have to register if you're looking for work. I don't know if Europeans do it differently.

In my view these numbers are worthless - maybe useful for some economic shenannigans but not for a normal person looking for work and looking for an indication of number of job openings. Here in BC Canada, unemployment is also around 5-% but you go and actually try to find work - you'll find it's very much employers' market, despite record-low numbers (unless you want to be a construction worker).

If this is prosperity, I shudder to think what would a recession look like. Wait... I do remember. And people having to work for a living weren't too much worse off.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 7:13:04 PM , Rating: 3
> "His figures are fine... The problem is that they're worthless. American statistics bases unemployment on the number of unemployment claims, not on the actual number of people looking for work..."

Oops again. This is incorrect....US figures are "Household Survey" data. The below is straight from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:

quote:
Some people think that to get these figures on unemployment the Government uses the number of persons filing claims for unemployment insurance (UI) benefits under State or Federal Government programs. But some people are still jobless when their benefits run out, and many more are not eligible at all or delay or never apply for benefits. So, quite clearly, UI information cannot be used as a source for complete information on the number of unemployed.

The number of unemployed persons in the United States and the national unemployment rate are produced from data collected in the Current Population Survey (CPS ), ...the [rate] is the number of unemployed persons as a percent of the labor force (employed and unemployed persons)...

Once again, my figures are accurate. US unemployment is far lower than the EU average, incomes are higher, and the costs of consumer goods average less. All this, despite the "protection" offered by the EC's policies.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By aos007 on 7/28/2006 8:04:45 PM , Rating: 2
I see. I often read about unemployment claims so I wondered about this. I guess the numbers are usueable then, though they look insanely low (not just for US).

According to wikipedia though, as of 2005 they are using 3 sources to report data, one of them being unemployment claims. Do they combine them together with some formula?

However, these are just statistics. They don't tell the whole picture. Free market is just one part of the equation. As one of your US economists said, if you are opening your borders for free market but closing them for movement of labour, that will screw up the balance.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Clauzii on 7/28/2006 7:51:42 PM , Rating: 2
- The unimployment in DK is at current: 4.6%.

- The tax is high, but so is the living standard.

- I NEVER have to think about health insurrance. It's all paid for via the tax. Also for dental care.

- We have a social safetynet in DK, which belongs to the top five (or something) in the world, where care is taken for all kinds of people - allways.

- AND - we have the best dairy products in the world :)

Since there will always be weak spots in a structural society, Denmark is not without flaws, but to me they are neglible compared to the good stuff, so I won't comment any further on that.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By mendocinosummit on 7/28/2006 4:41:37 PM , Rating: 2
Democracy has nothing to do with this. It is the market. The EU is not a true free market. Even though a free market has many many flaws, anything else requires the government to put there noses were they don't belong, and I don't really care for Europeans saying that Americans are ignorant since it usually goes both ways.

P.S. I don't like euros trying to cling on to their historic dominance in the world; it really is quite pathetic.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By ElJefe69 on 7/29/2006 5:43:21 PM , Rating: 2
Europe. Who needs them.

France in particular.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:46:13 PM , Rating: 2
without france the US would never have come into being.

Most of you are descended from europeans, hell the principles of your constitution were thought up by a french guy and Washington was born in Yorkshire.

So shut up with your pathetic 'the eu is shit' comments.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 6:56:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
without france the US would never have come into being.

LOL, so all the success the US has attained since its founding and independence is due to France and the Europeans? Your implication is funny, to say the least.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 1:52:25 AM , Rating: 2
why you think Europeans are funny?
we do everything purposely....
we aint like hugging each other on sight... :D
which American obviously do...


"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates











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