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European Commission said a full investigation may follow

Just when we think that Blu-ray and HD DVD will start showing up in mass production, the two formats enter into more trouble, this time with the European Commission. According to reports, the European Commission believes that the companies that are backing each format may have licensing terms that breach European competition rules. The report said that the European Commission launched an unofficial antitrust probe this month.

Toshiba, the leading company behind HD DVD and Sony the leading company behind Blu-ray both received letters from the European Commission earlier this month. According to a European Commission representative, "we sent a letter earlier this month to the makers of HD DVD and Blu-ray to request information about licensing." Toshiba did not respond to inquiries but Sony confirmed that it did receive a letter from the European Commission.

The European Commission is still waiting for all replies to come back. It will then decide whether or not to pursue a full anti-trust probe. A representative from Sony told reporters that "there are no indications of any complaint, nor of any antitrust concerns on the part of the Commission or anyone else."

Sony's Blu-ray format has been facing a barrage of issues since the start of the year. Sony's own Blu-ray players have been suffering from continual delays. According to earlier reports, Sony will be shipping its first Blu-ray player will be shipping only slightly ahead of its PlayStation 3 console -- currently scheduled for November 17th. On the HD DVD side, Toshiba announced earlier that it would be shipping its HD DVD players at a loss to gain a head start.

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Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/28/2006 9:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
I wish Neelie Kroes and her bunch of loonies would take a daytrip somewhere and accidentally drive over a cliff. Honestly, i'm sick and tired of the bickering and petty thuggery that the EU has sunk to. Living in the UK, we only have to put up with so much, but that we have to put up with ANY of it is bad enough. I say secede from the EU like most people in the country want us to do, put spitfires on the back of the £10 note and Lancaster Bombers on the back of £20 notes, then tell the EU where to shove it - we can make our own mind up thank you very much! GRR!




RE: Personally...
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 9:26:45 PM , Rating: 2
It's very clear how you make up your own minds. Whatever US says you do. Awesome.

If I had any saying GB should never been let into EU. Just stick to your own crap, suck up to US even more because you have no validity in world saying anyways anymore.


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/28/2006 9:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
What kind of shite are you spouting now?

The UK has one of the largest economies in the world, and still has one of the largest militaries in the world. Regardless of what Teflon Tone does, it does NOT reflect the opinion of the general public. NEed i remind you that he was voted in thanks to the lowest voter turnouts since the end of the first world war, and NOT because we all thought he was a wonderful person.

Take your EU and stick it where the sun doesnt shine. At least the US doesnt whine and whinge half as much as you lot!


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:49:01 PM , Rating: 1
The UK economy is virtually tied with the French one and lower than the German one, and in GDP per capita there’s like 9 EU countries ahead of you guys… Anyway if you are that happy with your lap dog job you can move away, I sure wont stop ya.


RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:58:20 PM , Rating: 2
I wish Neelie Kroes and her bunch of loonies would take a daytrip somewhere and accidentally drive over a cliff. Honestly, i'm sick and tired of the bickering and petty thuggery that the EU has sunk to. Living in the UK, we only have to put up with so much, but that we have to put up with ANY of it is bad enough. I say secede from the EU like most people in the country want us to do, put spitfires on the back of the £10 note and Lancaster Bombers on the back of £20 notes, then tell the EU where to shove it - we can make our own mind up thank you very much! GRR!

please join the BNP. They like idiots like you - a fellow UK citizen (from the north, i might add)


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/29/2006 10:25:51 PM , Rating: 2
Oddly enough, i'm not a racist turd like Nick Griffin or any of his lunatic fringe. I am however, all for the EU being put in the toilet bowl, where it belongs. Have you ever been to other European countries and heard the general populace complain about how shite the EU is? No? Well, get on a ferry and go to france or the Netherlands. Or you could also speak to the Nordic countries that are officially part of Europe, but dont like the idea of the EU.

Just because i have an aversion to being ruled by brussels and being told what i can and cant do by a bunch of raving lefty loonies, does NOT make me a candidate, nor a voter of, the BNP.

And as for you being from the north, well the less said about that the better...


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:54:17 PM , Rating: 2
Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU, besides the French dream of a united Europe since a long time...


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:03:24 AM , Rating: 2
> "Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU..."

If you've never heard the French complain about the EU, then not only have you never been to France, but you've never read a newspaper either:

quote:
French voters have overwhelmingly rejected the European Union's proposed constitution in a key referendum....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4592243.st...

quote:
as far as he is concerned, the [French way of life] is under siege -- from bureaucrats in Paris and Brussels with their regulations and high taxes, and from foreign countries whose cheap products and low-waged workers threaten French industries and jobs....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...



RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
This is more to do with French political culture and the deep divide between those who live in cities and those living in more rural areas.

Its a more complex issue than you would think, however, large farming subsidies usually tips the balance in favour of the EU in France. I would think the rejection of the EU constitution was something to do with this, although i dont have these sorts of facts to hand.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 4:54:22 PM , Rating: 2
Dude I could bet I know far more French people than you do... and to your information I live 5 min away from France, so not only I read/watch the French news I also speak with real people.

What I said is 100% true and NOTHING you can say will ever change it.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 6:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
> "What I said is 100% true and NOTHING you can say will ever change it. "

It's not what I say that counts-- its what the French people say. And many of them are quite upset with the EU. To say that "no French speak against the EU" is total rubbish.

A few quotes:


quote:
France's [rejection of the EU Constition] has plunged the European Union into political crisis...

To many French workers, the prospect of thousands of low-paid, low-taxed and lightly regulated Czechs and Poles setting up in competition is proof that the EU has been hijacked by "Anglo-Saxon" free-marketeers and their acolytes from Eastern Europe....


quote:
the French, already upset by their diminished influence in a union of 25 members, would tend to oppose Turkey's ascension...


quote:
Le Monde, took up the doom-saying with a front-page headline reading "Europe -- why France is losing influence in Brussels...Le Figaro ran editorials from 40 top businessmen, politicians, and academics, most of whom expressed some measure of discontent with France's current positoin within the EU...


quote:
With the victory for the `non' vote — 55 per cent to 45 per cent, the founder and pillar of the EU [France] turned its back on half a century of neo-European history...



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:21:13 PM , Rating: 2
I NEVER said no French is upset with the EU... man stop reading what's not there just for the sake of posting something.

Just so I spare you of new crappy post I was speaking of the French folks I know and not of all the French.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 8:18:35 PM , Rating: 1
> "I NEVER said no French is upset with the EU... I was speaking of the French folks I know "

Well, let's see what was said, shall we? In respond to a poster's statement of, "Have you ever been to other European countries and heard the general populace complain about how shite the EU is? No? Well, get on a ferry and go to france...", you replied "Well I've never heard the French folks I know complain about the EU".

So either you were implying the original poster was incorrect, or you were making obtuse, irrelevant remarks just for the sake of being argumentative So which one is it?

Given you didn't begin your backpedalling until I stepped in with overwhelming evidence of French discontent with the EU, I think we already know the answer.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 10:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
What he said was based on his personal experience and I shared my experience that is quite the opposite of his own, generalizing from what he heard or what I hear on my everyday life is completely absurd.

What you pointed doesn’t support what he said either, there’s plenty of people complaining about some of the EU doings including in Spain and other member states, however that doesn’t mean they are against the EU, if most French folks were against the EU they had a good opportunity a couple years back when a candidate to the presidency had an anti-EU slogans and guess what he didn’t won...


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/30/2006 6:32:52 PM , Rating: 2
Well for your information, Mr Superior, i lived there from 2001 to 2004, so i know a fairly large amount of french people myself. All of them hate the EU and think its a bad idea and a threat to their way of life. Pwned, btw.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
Only 3 years ? man not enough compared to my 8 and still counting... 2001 to 2004 ? man you know we are in 200 6 don't you?...


RE: Personally...
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 8:33:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Only 3 years ? man not enough compared to my 8 and still counting... 2001 to 2004 ? man you know we are in 200 6 don't you?...

Sheesh, now living there for 3-4 years isn't good enough for you either? I think you're just being petty.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 9:06:54 PM , Rating: 2
Not good enough to pretend he knows more than I do...


RE: Personally...
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 9:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not good enough to pretend he knows more than I do...

Yes, but it is clear that in your view, nobody knows more than you do.

j/k - you kind of invited that.


RE: Personally...
By Merry on 7/30/2006 10:47:31 AM , Rating: 2
I think you should possibly move to the US.

Oh, and rather than using the UKIP manifesto as a source of information have a look at some independant sources.

I actually used to think a bit like this but as I have learnt more about the EU (and seen it in action, i might add) my opinion has changed, indeed, it is hard to argue against a lot of propsals they put forward, especially regarding things like sausages etc.


RE: Personally...
By uksupramk3 on 7/30/2006 6:39:53 PM , Rating: 2
Who in the hell would want to live in an even more cracked country? If an idiot can be voted into office by some rediculous system rather than by the majority vote....no thanks.

UKIP? No thanks, they're not even a serious political party, nor is Veritas for that matter. Go on, get out there and ask as many people in the general public what they think of the EU - i bet you any amount of money that at least 8 out of 10 of them will tell you it's crap and they want nothing to do with it. Who would? Do you want to be ruled by bureaucrats from brussels? Do you want to be told what you can and cant do in your own country by a German, Italian, Spaniard, or indeed, anyone else that doesnt actually live here?

The UK has no place in the EU, this country has gone down the toilet thanks to them, and the massive amount of money given to the EU by this country should be spent by us, ON US, not subsidising some Spanish farmer.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 7:27:57 PM , Rating: 2
Shut up Germany, France and even Italy gives more money than the UK... so cry me a river.
And Spain is right after the UK on the list.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/06, Rating: 0
RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 10:02:32 PM , Rating: 2
So what if Spain is at the top of the list?... the funding is discussed by ALL the EU member states and they may get money today but in the future it will be them to pay for others... I’m pretty sure it’s the same case in the US.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:33:39 AM , Rating: 1
> "So what if Spain is at the top of the list?... "

You missed my question. Are you personally from Spain? Proper answers here are "yes", "no", or "I refuse to answer on the grounds of shame over my national heritage".


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 11:34:13 AM , Rating: 2
No, I'm not from Spain... now what will you do ?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 12:22:43 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, I'm not from Spain... now what will you do ? "

Why, nothing at all of course. I had tentatively pegged you as Spanish or Portugese...but you obviously can conceal your national origin if you wish. Most people are proud of it, but I'm sure you have your reasons.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 6:34:32 PM , Rating: 2
I'm Portuguese, now I’m interest to know what that matters to you.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 7:17:11 PM , Rating: 2
> "I'm Portuguese, now I’m interest to know what that matters to you."

Nothing-- except that it more than explains your support of the EU. Portugal is one of the largest net recipients of funds from the EU budget. Of the 15 original members, 11 contribute more to the EU in taxes than they receive in fudning. Four receive more...Portugal, Greece, and Spain being the largest offenders.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 7:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Like I thought... you had to make a rather crappy statement...

It doesn’t explains ANYTHING I defend the EU but so does many other EU citizens including German, French and others, I've also supported the enlargement of the EU to other counties that are currently in a far worst position than Portugal and this implies Portugal will start receiving less and less as the time goes by, the EU is not just a question of money, but feel free to think that the EU is only defended by Spanish, Portuguese and Greek folks, and that the paying countries are only on the EU cause we force them to be here.

Also know that this is the internet I could very well say that I was French or German and pawn you... damn I almost regret to have given you the pleasure of posting a crappy insinuation again.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:56:52 PM , Rating: 1
> "feel free to think that the EU is only defended by Spanish, Portuguese and Greek folks..."

I said no such thing. The EU has its defenders in all member nations. However, there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU. Nations like the U.K. and the Netherlands are not nearly as supportive as those in Spain and Portugal.

Why? It's the money, honey. Some people are motivated by a dream for a united Europe...others simply see the EU as a free lunch. Everyone has different reasons...and in the nations that foot the majority of the bill, public discontent is higher.


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 7:42:38 AM , Rating: 2
That's only on your head, example Portugal is yet to sign the EU constitution and Germany the country that pays the most as already accepted it along with a bunch of other paying countries like Italy, Belgium, Austria... and that’s a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country, like I told you before the EU is not just about money and with the money comes a bunch of rules that may displease a lot of people... in other words there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU and I’m not sure money is the strongest of them.

Anyway I’m not the average guy, I’m a single guy so stop trying to change your statement, the fact that I’m Portuguese doesn’t tell you ANYTHING at all about my EU opinion, and to your information I defend far more the EU than the average Portuguese, Spanish or other.


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 8:49:18 AM , Rating: 2
> "and that’s a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country"

I realize English isn't your primary language, but you may want to more carefully read my posts. I said nothing of the sort.

> "in other words there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU "

Which is exactly what I said myself. Money is merely one of those factors. But its not a "minor" factor in by any means. If you read the polls, interviews with citizens, and statements of certain politicians, its very clear. The economic costs and benefits of EU membership are a primary consideration. Period.

> "to your information I defend far more the EU than the average Portuguese, Spanish or other"

So you admit most Europeans don't support the EU nearly as much as you do? Odd, since you were arguing just the opposite all through this thread.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 9:17:05 AM , Rating: 2
"I realize English isn't your primary language"
here here now we are going as low as this?... man I read English and understand it just like the average American or even better.

You didn’t say money alone however you only speak of money, are we now to figure out that you took other factors into account...

"Which is exactly what I said myself."
I don’t see where you mention other factors besides money.

"But its not a "minor" factor in by any means."
I never said it was, I said I wasn’t sure money was the most relevant of the factors.

"The economic costs and benefits of EU membership are a primary consideration. Period."
And so is the power the EU has over the country and plenty of other factors... actually the main concern of the citizens from France, Germany and other countries is the free transit of the EU citizens, this is what people feared the most with the enlargement to the new members.

"Odd, since you were arguing just the opposite all through this thread."
Wrong, I never pretended that most EU citizens support the EU as much as I do, I say most EU citizens support the EU, that doesn’t imply they support as much as me let along more than I do.

Interesting you completely overlooked the fact the German already accepted the EU constitution...

And BTW how about putting forth some sources for your “strong relation” between the money a country gets and the EU support?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 10:08:52 AM , Rating: 2
> "man I read English and understand it just like the average American or even better. "

Then why do you continually misinterpret the most plain remarks? I clearly stated the following, "Some people are motivated by a dream for a united Europe...others simply see the EU as a free lunch. Everyone has different reasons..." To which you replied, " a crappy assumption that money alone will be representative of the support of x country...there’s plenty of factors that influence the support of the EU "

Either you've having trouble understanding my remarks, or you're intentionally twisting them. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was accidental. Was I wrong to do so?

> "Interesting you completely overlooked the fact the German already accepted the EU constitution... "

So? Just last year, Germany blew a large hole in the rules governing the Euro, by ignoring the budget deficit limits set by the Maastricht Treaty. It also sidelined the plan for a common European market for services. Finally, after Chancellor Schröder put through labor reforms intended to align the German market closer with the EU, he lost popular support, and had to stand down in favor of Merkel.



RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 12:19:01 PM , Rating: 2
Yes you said that and just before you said "there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU" later on you say ”in the nations that foot the majority of the bill, public discontent is higher”, hence you clearly make a link between the support of each country and how much money they get or pay, whereas you base your whole EU support idea on money alone, I replied that money is just one of the factors and I doubt its one of the most important ones. Now if you admit that there are many other factors just as important as money if not more, I don’t see any reason to keep this going on.

About Germany, exactly, it seems I’m getting you to understand that money is not the only factor, and you even support me when you said “after Chancellor Schröder put through labor reforms intended to align the German market closer with the EU, he lost popular support” see he lost popular support not cause Spain was getting money but cause the German economy was forced by the EU to change... do you think the Germans back then were more concerned about how their money was being used and how much they paid or by the rules the EU imposes to them?... and it’s the same in even Portugal, people are way more concerned about the rules the EU brings than by the money.

Anyway again any sources about the EU support level by country and what concerns them the most? after all you make the affirmation that Spain, Portugal and Greece were the countries supporting the EU the most and that money was the reason they supported the EU, now how about backing it up...


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 1:08:10 PM , Rating: 2
> "Yes you said that and just before you said "there is a strong correlation between the average level of support in a member nation, with how much benefit that nation receives from the EU"

Do you not understand the meaning of the word "correlation"? Money is a factor in the level of support-- which you yourself admit. It's not the sole factor, and my statement does not imply it is.

> Schröder...lost popular support” see he lost popular support not cause Spain was getting money but cause the German economy was forced by the EU to change...

And that change caused a slump in the economy. And that slump cost people money, and concerned them about losing additional sums in the future. As you see-- its about money.

Similarly with Germany's sidelining of the common services market for the EU. German workers felt it would cut their salaries. Again-- money. Not just the money they pay the EU directly...but the monetary benefits of their EU membership.







RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 5:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
“It's not the sole factor, and my statement does not imply it is.”
Your statement implies that it’s the strongest one and that others count for nothing, I still want the sources I asked for, you made a quite a big statement there for someone that doesn’t even live in the EU, so I really want to see your sources.

“And that change caused a slump in the economy. And that slump cost people money, and concerned them about losing additional sums in the future. As you see-- its about money.”
Sources? sources that link the EU and a slump on the Germany economy.

“German workers felt it would cut their salaries.”
Sources?


RE: Personally...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/1/2006 6:12:34 PM , Rating: 2
> "Your statement implies that it’s the strongest one and that others count for nothing..."

Again, I can only conclude that either you don't understand plain English, or you intentionally wish to distort the meaning of my remarks. When you tell which of these two is motivating you, I'll provide the references you request. Until then, might I suggest this?

www.onlinedictionary.com


RE: Personally...
By Strunf on 8/1/2006 6:40:36 PM , Rating: 2
It's not me that needs a dictionary it's you... it's ok with me though, you made a rather pathetic statement that now you cant back up and so you try to twist it, errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum...

And where are the sources of all your statements, I mean you come here talk big and you don’t even put your sources forth... it doesn’t bother you to ask others for sources when it suits you but when the others ask you the same you run away... So for as long as you don’t give me your sources, I’ll keep thinking you pulled all what you said out of your butt, just for the sake of arguing.


RE: Personally...
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:39:03 AM , Rating: 2
exactly...
i know, i shouldnt be complaining and stuff, cuz i come from Czech republic, but we also give some money (and recieve for sure) but when we reach the UK or France level, we´ll be participating much more on the European economy...


What is up with the EU?
By breethon on 7/28/2006 5:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
Do they need money that bad that they have to keep dipping in companies pockets? IT is getting kind of ridiculous. It is getting to the point, where I would skip launches in the EU. By the time you pay all the legal fees and the "fines" they come up with, you have to be losing money. M$ should pull vista from them and let them stay with XP or LINUX. It is getting old. It is as bad as the moron who sued Mcdonalds because they spilled THEIR coffee on THEMSELVES, and won because the cup didn't say "caution, it is hot." Keep it on trucking US....ooops....I mean EU...




RE: What is up with the EU?
By mino on 7/28/2006 6:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
You have no idea how much money M$ makes in EU.

just try to take into account the fact that the EU's economy is about as big as US one.

IMHO in general M$ makes around 20-33% of their money in EU.

M$: If you don't obey us we will not launch/sell Vista/Office07 in EU!
EU: Do as you choose.

EU(behind the scenes): Heard on that M4's move? Do those idiots really think they can afford that? Well we'll see.

2yrs later
M$: WTF, why is our revenue going down, tho f*kin EU linux bastards! We have to move the battle to their land ! Fast !
EU: Do as you choose. However this time you're gonna open-source your stuff, we are not where we were 2yrs ago.
M$: grrrrrr


RE: What is up with the EU?
By djcameron on 7/28/2006 7:41:02 PM , Rating: 2
The EU economy might be nearly as large as the US economy, but the EU has 50% more people. So, obviously, the average EU resident is far less productive.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Clauzii on 7/29/2006 9:24:03 AM , Rating: 2
The newest members of EU, the eastern countries in Europe, do not have a GDP compared to the western part of Europe, therefore the average GDP/capacita is lower.

It takes time to level out the unequalities of the past...


RE: What is up with the EU?
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:55:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It takes time to level out the unequalities of the past...

As if that is some kind of noble goal. That is precisely the goal of socialism and communism, not capatalism. Last I checked, the EU was aiming for capitalism and democracy. Good luck with that.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:53:04 PM , Rating: 2
No its the goal of advanced liberalism, i.e giving equality of opportunity.

once again you show how little you understand by calling such practices socialism, and, even more laughably, communism.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
> "No its the goal of advanced liberalism, i.e giving equality of opportunity."

Not just equality of opportunity, but equality of results. Thus the reliance on "progessive" taxes, which equalize income, and large, complex social systems which ensure food, housing, health care, and other "basic rights" for the entire populace.

Advanced Liberalism seeks a classless, stateless society where everyone benefits equally from the means of productions. Communism is a classless, stateless society where the means of production are equally owned by all.

Yeah, big difference there. Keep telling yourself that.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:06:47 PM , Rating: 2
i just sent your reply to my politics tutor.

I believe she is still laughing at you. Hell i'm suprised i can even type i'm laughing so much.

Please, dont feel obliged to answer all of my posts, regardless of your ability to answer them. You're making yourself look silly.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
> "just sent your reply to my politics tutor....I believe she is still laughing at you"

Tell her to find a new line of work. The authors of The Philosophic Roots of Modern Ideology (used as a Political Science text in many major universities) came to the same conclusion in their work.



RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/29/2006 8:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe they should find a new line of work then.

I'm talking about British advanced liberalism, taking into account the actions of the Liberal party in the early 20th century. If this helps you find a more accurate definition.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 8:34:29 PM , Rating: 2
> "Maybe they should find a new line of work then. "

They are degreed professors at major universities. What are your tutor's qualifications?

In any case, British Liberalism, while it shares some common points with traditional Eurocommunism, does differ substantially in many others. And those differences explain, in large measure, much of the friction in attempting to integrate the U.K. into the fold of the EU.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 11:15:03 PM , Rating: 1
"Eurocommunism"
If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... besides in case you didn’t notice the EU is currently more turned towards the right wing (democrats, conservatives...) than the left of socialists let along the extreme left of the communists.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 10:42:18 AM , Rating: 2
I wouldnt bother engaging him a debate regarding this. He is obviously lacking in knowledge regarding this subject.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
> "He is obviously lacking in knowledge regarding this subject. "

I've backed up my statements with facts, references, and links. Your only backing seems to be your "politics tutor".

By the way, you ignored my request for her credentials...did you miss the question?


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:23:39 PM , Rating: 2
did you miss the point of the article?

Fact is you're wrong, it fairly obvious.
I do not know, nor care what qualifications she has, indeed my point is backed up by numerous politics books I happen to have filling my room, so it is, therefore irrelevant.

Being an active member or a political party and having studied the subject i am in a postion to know about this type of thing.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 2:29:24 PM , Rating: 2
> "Being an active member or a political party and having studied the subject i am in a postion to know about this type of thing..."

Two posts ago you were being tutored in political science...now you're claiming to hold an expert opinion, and puting it above those of degreed professors? Truth is stranger than fiction.

I have news for you..belonging to a political party doesn't automatically make you an expert on even that party, much less all the other political elements present within the EU.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 7:03:01 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop it, your embarassing yourself, really you are.

i never claimed any of what you state, i meerly claim that your statements are inaccurate, indeed they are wrong. It doesnt take an expert in this subject to see this.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 8:10:12 PM , Rating: 2
> "I never claimed any of what you state..."

It's all right there in black and white, kid. If you changed your mind about it, just say so. Don't claim you didn't say it.



RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 11:06:25 AM , Rating: 2
> ""Eurocommunism" If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... "

Good god man, do you know nothing whatsoever of your own continent?

quote:
It was those Communist parties with strongest popular support, notably the Italian Communist Party (PCI), Spanish Communist Party (PCE) and the French Communist Party (PCF) that adopted Eurocommunism most enthusiastically ....Eurocommunist ideas won at least partial acceptance outside of Western Europe. Prominent parties influenced by it outside of Europe were the Movement for Socialism (Venezuela), the Japanese Communist Party, the Mexican Communist Party and the Communist Party of Australia....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocommunism


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 4:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
Most of the Europe is either socialist or democrat, end of the story, the communist party is one of the less representative political party in the EU, so how the hell could that be a reason hindering the UK EU relations... besides the 2 major UK parties are also part of the 2 major EU political “groups” on the European parliament and most EU countries (if not all) are leaded by socialist or democrats since a “long” time...

BTW I know very well there are communists in Europe I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED THERE WASNT, so stop posting useless crap just for the heck of showing you know how to use wiki.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 6:03:00 PM , Rating: 1
Strunf: "once again you show how little you understand by calling such practices socialism..."

Strunf, 4 posts later: "Most of the Europe is either socialist or democrat, end of the story"

Are you just playing the clown, or do can you honestly not recall your own posts?


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/31/2006 6:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
Your first quote is not from one of my posts.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By TomZ on 7/30/2006 12:17:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you had said Eurosocialism I may have not replied but Eurocommunism give me a break... besides in case you didn’t notice the EU is currently more turned towards the right wing (democrats, conservatives...) than the left of socialists let along the extreme left of the communists

The problem with your view, as demonstrated by the quote above, is that you make the incorrect assumption that everyone in the EU is on the "same page" and have basically the same views. There are some 450 million people in the EU with a very diverse set of backgrounds - of course it directly follows that the entire spectrum will be represented in politics in the EU. While there may be some kind of "average," more extreme views like Eurocommunism do hold true for some people. The same is true in the U.S. of course.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 1:32:20 PM , Rating: 2
Good post, however 'masher2' seems to be implying that these sorts of political beliefs are a widespread throughout the EU and affect its decisions regarding business. This is not the case.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/30/2006 2:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
> "'masher2' seems to be implying that these sorts of political beliefs are a widespread throughout the EU and affect its decisions regarding business"

Widespread is a relative term...they're certainly far more widespread than they are in the US. And they certainly affec the decisions of the EU-- case in point, the largest item in the EU's budget by far is agricultural subsidies to farmers.




RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 6:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
i hope your familiar with the phrase 'muppet' as you are one.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Strunf on 7/30/2006 5:20:53 PM , Rating: 2
I don’t assume everyone is on the same page, its common knowledge that there’s plenty of political choices, however communism is the minority so why even bother giving them some credit for the EU UK situation.
The average in EU is with no doubt central since the extreme right or left are the minority and the majority is either central-left or central-right, and we keep alternating between socialists and democrats leaders.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Merry on 7/30/2006 7:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly, however, you would be hard pressed to call most of the leaders socialist, hell, even Blair isnt socialist.


RE: What is up with the EU?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:36:51 PM , Rating: 2
indeed.

Considering that developing markets such as India and China have serious piracy issues, it seems Microsoft is making the most money from the US and EU markets, which means if you pull out from the EU, you cut your profits and turnover by nearly half.

If that happened the stock brokers would have a fit and maybe the company would go into meltdown, not before the people with stock demand to oust the CEO of the company via a vote.

You cant just pull out of the largest economy in the world (the EU is the first as of 2004 i believe) and not have some pretty serious consequences.

Plus Linux and the open source community or even apple would just love Microsoft to leave such a massive market open for them.


Wow...
By gez on 7/28/2006 4:30:33 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, doesn't the EU have more important things to do than craft elaborate anti-trust cases against nearly every new technology? Don't they have a country (or multiple countries, in this case) to run?




RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:38:21 PM , Rating: 2
> Honestly, doesn't the EU have more important things to do than craft elaborate anti-trust cases against nearly every new technology?

Quite apparently-- no.


RE: Wow...
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:43:44 PM , Rating: 1
No, the strange country called EU is not actually a country. It does not have one or more countries to run. This is because it is *not* the US. It is, in fact, different.

It has a lot of other responsibilities, among others, ensuring fair competition, which sometimes require them to *examine* various products and agreements between companies. That is what they are doing.


RE: Wow...
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:31:42 PM , Rating: 2
indeed.

Plus if you want to sell your wares in the largest economic market in the world (the EU), you have play by the EU's rules.

No more, no less.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:49:40 PM , Rating: 2
> "Plus if you want to sell your wares in the [EU], you have play by the EU's rules."

No one is disputing that. We're merely pointing out those rules are slanted, biased, unequally enforced, and intended less to protect the consumer than they are to line the EU's pockets through confiscatory policies.


RE: Wow...
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 7:31:36 PM , Rating: 1
Like the ones of most countries including your own...


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:30:34 PM , Rating: 3
> "Besides. Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple. The EU is not just out to get US companies"

Given all the French legal action against Apple, culminating in the so-called "iPod law", you're going to have a hard time selling the idea that they're trying to benefit Apple.


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 6:40:51 AM , Rating: 2
If the EU rules are slanted what about the US rules? If MS was not a US company I'm sure that the US would have a lot more issues with their monopoly.

I live in the EU and I can definately say a thing or two I dislike about the EU but I can say the same about the US.


RE: Wow...
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 9:26:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If MS was not a US company I'm sure that the US would have a lot more issues with their monopoly.

Can you think of an instance where the US government, in your opinion, overzealously prosecuted a European company in the way you are suggesting?


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 12:17:03 PM , Rating: 2
Now you are suggesting that the EU is "overzealously prosecuting" this or that. I don't agree that that's the case. And no. I can't really think of the US doing that either. The US has had problems with the MS, but as long as the tax dollars come your way it's not that big of a deal.

Besides. Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple. The EU is not just out to get US companies.


RE: Wow...
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now you are suggesting that the EU is "overzealously prosecuting" this or that.

You don't think that fines in excess of $1B for not producing certain documentation are overzealous? I suppose you wouldn't.

Anyway, you're just dodging my question - you stated that the US does the same kind of thing. Can you think of any examples where the US government has gone after a European company in a way similar to how the EU has gone after Microsoft?
quote:
Many of the EU competition decisions have benefitted other US companies like Real Networks or Apple.

What decisions have benefitted these companies? Are you going to seriously argue that the forced release of Windows XPN, with sales of practically zero, are helping Real Networks or Apple more effectively sell their media player? Please tell me what benefits there have been to competition that you see from past EU decisions.


RE: Wow...
By Hare on 7/29/2006 5:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyway, you're just dodging my question - you stated that the US does the same kind of thing. Can you think of any examples where the US government has gone after a European company in a way similar to how the EU has gone after Microsoft?
Wanna see me dodging? That's because the EU companies are playing nicely... I don't have the time or the will to have this conversation. Not because it is not interesting. I just don't have time to do the research required to answer your questions. Take that as a compliment.

I have a few things in mind that I could post if I find them interesting enought to do some googling... On the other hand. This is just another EU vs US thread (of the 3-4 in this month) and will be forgotten in a week so why bother.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 7:16:12 PM , Rating: 2
> "You don't think that fines in excess of $1B for not producing certain documentation are overzealous?"

Just a small correction-- Microsoft *is* producing the documentation. The billion-dollar fine is for not producing it fast enough to suit the EC.


RE: Wow...
By mushi799 on 7/28/2006 4:42:48 PM , Rating: 2
These anti-trust cases are funding the retirement plans for the EU committee.


RE: Wow...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:36:08 PM , Rating: 2
> "The newest members of EU, the eastern countries in Europe, do not have a GDP compared to the western part of Europe, therefore the average GDP/capacita is lower."

The only nations of Europe which have a GDP/capita equal to the US are Ireland and Norway. Germany and France's is $12,000 per person lower ($30K vs. $42K) and Spain has a measly $25K/per.

Portugal's is less than half the US rate, at a tiny $19K/per capita.


Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 3:07:47 PM , Rating: 3
DT keeps posting that "Toshiba says they are selling players at a loss", which is, and always has been incorrect. Toshiba has *never* made a formal statement on the issue. The whole argument is made by a third party's tear-down analysis (iSupply -- the same firm to do the BOM analysis of the Xbox 360).

In reality, a Toshiba exec has said they are *not* selling at a loss. However this exec was a VP in an unaffiliated division, so his statement is just as relevant as iSupply's analysis (which has no clue what economies of scale Toshiba are benefiting from by being a close ally of Intel).

Additionally, iSupply seems to have a very narrow view of their analysis practices. They state that MS is taking a $125 loss per console based on a BOM analysis that figures the Xbox 360 is $525 to manufacture. This is problematic due to the simple fact that the $399 Xbox nets Microsoft closer to $299. When you take into account distribution, retail markup (the stores are *not* taking a loss), and amortizing the marketing costs, they can't possibly make anywhere near $399. As a result, you have to take iSupply's comments with a grain of salt as they seem to have problems with basic assumptions regarding the actual retail market space.




RE: Correction...
By DigitalFreak on 7/28/2006 3:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
You go, girl!


RE: Correction...
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 3:23:21 PM , Rating: 2
A couple quick points.

1. Toshiba would never admit to taking a loss because they would then expose themselves to investigation for predatory pricing, which is illegal in some circumstances, although in practice hard to prove. If the company states they are taking a loss in an official PR, then they obviously provide strong evidence of the same.

2. I don't view any bias in iSupply's teardown analysis, nor do I see any issues with how they calculate the loss, which presumably is calculated based on MSRP. I think you are taking too literally the statement that "Microsoft loses," which you should take as "Microsoft loses no less than."

3. While there may be some special deals given to some customers, for the most part the devices they tear down are based on readily-available commercial components for which volume pricing is also readily available.


RE: Correction...
By Merry on 7/28/2006 3:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
yeah, i dont think we'll get better information for a while yet.

Still the article will be a good outlet for all the EU bashing yanks out there, which should save them a trip to the shrink </sarcasm>


RE: Correction...
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 4:52:09 PM , Rating: 2
well it is the mandate of the people who are doing it..

i mean after all they are "European Commission competition officials"


http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/index_en.html

though im suprised to see they have any time on their hands with this little task to do...

http://www.logo-competition.eu/

thats the first line on their HOT NEWS listing there in the middle of their page...



RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 8:01:08 PM , Rating: 2
None of your points change the fact that DT was wrong by claiming Toshiba stated they were taking a loss...

1.) Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal. Generally you can sell whatever you want for a loss, all day long. There have been cases in International trade (Japanese steel), however the related trade dispute revolved around the practice of dumping (i.e. flooding the market) rather than simply taking a loss.

This is also considered an acceptable sales tactic for many types of consumer technology as every vide game console in the last decade has been initially sold at a loss. There has never been a legal challenge relating to this tactic in regards to consumer electronics goods.

2. I didn't say I think iSupply is showing bias, more so that they are off regarding the acquisition costs of components. For instance, MS has informed investors that they take a loss in the low-100s per console. Given that their income per console is around $300 instead of $400, this means the production costs would be closer to $425; ergo the error rate was ~20%.

3. Volume pricing for these components is not readily available. The published pricing is almost always QTY 1,000 and those numbers don't reflect anything near a negotiated discount on components. For reasonable quantity, you can expect somewhere between 40 and 50% off. Since Toshiba is one of the world's largest PC makers, they are seeing volume discounts well beyond anything approaching a published wholesale cost. Heck, you can also get considerable discounts for QTY 1000 as the published numbers are nothing more than a non-negotiated high-quantity MSRP.

Nonetheless, DT is still wrong to claim Toshiba has said they are taking a loss. I've designed integrated devices and the selected components are not that expensive. I'd even gander they are making a profit, albeit slightly less than the margins on typical CE devices. Worst case they might be in a break-even situation.


RE: Correction...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 8:39:44 PM , Rating: 3
> "1.) Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal. Generally you can sell whatever you want for a loss, all day long...however the related trade dispute revolved around the practice of dumping (i.e. flooding the market)"

Oops, you are wrong on several points. First of all, "dumping" is not defined as flooding the market, but rather selling below cost.

Dumping per se is not illegal...but "predatory" dumping-- dumping to reduce or eliminate competition-- is. When you're selling below cost to garner market share, you are at risk of a predatory dumping antitrust action.


RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 10:22:56 PM , Rating: 2
That wasn't several points...

I wasn't clear enough. Dumping is almost always only applied to international transactions only and flooding the market with below market-cost goods, it is also by the most accepted definition considered predatory.

Also, in reference to my usage, I was correct. The generally accepted effects of "dumping" are impossible when you are moving such low volumes as to not disrupt the market. Shipping 50,000 HD-DVD players at $5 wouldn't be enough to accomplish much of anything...

At this point, no one in the HD-DVD/BluRay camp can be accused of anything predatory because they can't ship any quantity to make much of an impact. It would also be quite difficult, if not impossible, to tie a dumping argument to a "format" which any manufacturer could license.

Heck, I can apply all sorts of footnotes to what I wrote, but this is a web-forum and I'm not striving for anything approaching accuracy required for a dissertation.

And I suppose neither is Daily Tech since they persist with the same fallacy in every single HD-DVD article regarding Toshiba.


RE: Correction...
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 10:33:02 PM , Rating: 2
> "That wasn't several points... "

I corrected two points in your original post. I could have corrected more, such as your statement that "selling below cost is never illegal". Many states make it illegal to sell certain commodities (gasoline, for instance) below cost under any circumstances. At least one state goes beyond this, and requires resellers of gasoline to charge their wholesale cost plus a certain minimum for profit.


> "Dumping is almost always only applied to international transactions only "

Once again, you are incorrect. I can cite a hundred legal examples to the contrary...one of the more well-known contemporary cases being "Brooke Group v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp".



RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/29/2006 12:00:31 AM , Rating: 2
such as your statement that "selling below cost is never illegal".

I didn't say that. I said rarely if ever. One could rationally construct infinite scenarios in which it were illegal, however in the actual world, tangible instances of selling below cost has rarely been prosecuted. Since I believe in the credo of innocent until proven guilty, I'll give any of those firms the benefit of the doubt until they actually lose in a court of law. However, If I were a state AG I might have a different attitude.

Once again, you are incorrect.

Actually no. The term has come to refer to international transactions. According to Merriam Webster: "to sell in quantity at a very low price; specifically : to sell abroad at less than the market price at home"

Also Wikipedia: "However, the word is now generally used only in the context of international trade law."

In a present-day context, the term is misused when it refers to domestic economic affairs.


RE: Correction...
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 10:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Selling for a loss is rarely if ever illegal.

You totally missed my point; I'll try again. Why would Toshiba come out and admit it is selling units below cost, when the possibility could exist (with whatever probability) that they could end up in a situation where doing so is illegal? What is the benefit to them in taking that risk, no matter how small? And I am not disputing your claim that they didn't make such a statement; I was simply providing what I think is a reasonable explanation for why they chose that course of action.
quote:
I didn't say I think iSupply is showing bias

OK, you're right, you were saying their calculations are not accurate; I mis-spoke. But in the end, their calculations are just estimates, and I think that everyone who reads their teardowns understands this.
quote:
Volume pricing for these components is not readily available.

If you say so, but in my experience, it is. I can personally get a quote for 1M pieces of any commercially available component within a few days, so I don't see why iSupply would have any problems doing the same. And as I already acknowledged there may be some discounts that my quote may not take into account, but the price would be close. Again, iSupply is just making cost estimates, not claiming to come to an exact cost.


RE: Correction...
By ChristopherO on 7/28/2006 11:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
Well then, we pretty much agree albeit state it differently. My apologies if I came off a bit too strongly.

As you stated, it's highly unlikely they would admit to selling below cost even if they were. I don't know if they are in this particular case... Anything I say would be just a guess, but I don't think iSupply is correct in assuming they are selling at a loss. I understand any teardown is a guess, but the two I've read with their name on them seem awfully high. The Xbox one was contested, albeit not directly. They might do fine at their typical BOM analysis, so I don't want to tar and feather them, but these two in particular seem odd.

In regards to the volume prices, everything is negotiable. I could call and get that same quote, but the difference is that I could press them to drastically lower their prices if the vendor was confident I intended to purchase the product. If an engineering group known for BOM analysis inquired about my bulk prices I wouldn't give them anything except "bulk MSRP" since I wouldn't want to erode potential deals. Perhaps iSupply could fudge by saying "the real prices should be 20% less since we had no negotiating leverage", but a phantom discount is nearly impossible to quantify.

I just don't like situations like this because they can get out to investors and potentially render some degree of harm since these things tend to get falsely reported (ahem like in DT :).


What?
By phatboye on 7/28/2006 3:01:49 PM , Rating: 2
I wish this article gave some more details as to what the European Commission finds wrong with the licensing terms.




RE: What?
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:57:16 PM , Rating: 2


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5221658.stm


The Commission wants to know details of how the makers of the two new formats plan to license out their products to hardware manufacturers wanting to make new DVD players, as well as to firms wishing to produce the new discs themselves




RE: What?
By DCstewieG on 7/28/2006 4:07:09 PM , Rating: 3
I would bet that they have a problem with Sony not allowing a Blu-ray player to be HD-DVD compatible. That's total BS. The best way out of this format war is hybrid players and Blu-ray licensing forbids that.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/06/22/hybrid_hd_...
Interestingly, it appears that Samsung is calling Sony's bluff - under the licensing agreement for Blu-ray, parters aren't allowed to dabble in HD-DVD. It seems that Samsung is testing whether Sony will really push that.


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:35:16 PM , Rating: 3
> "I would bet that they have a problem with Sony not allowing a Blu-ray player to be HD-DVD compatible"

I'm sure the EU is trying to drum up more than this, or they wouldn't be investigating both HD-DVD and BR.


RE: What?
By OddTSi on 7/28/2006 9:54:45 PM , Rating: 1
What's wrong is that the companies are privately owned and make a profit. Socialists hate that.


RE: What?
By Zandros on 7/29/2006 10:29:46 AM , Rating: 2
Of course, the governments just hates companies who turn a profit and pays millions in tax money to pay for healthcare, roads et cetera. ;)


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:19:36 PM , Rating: 2
> "Of course, the governments just hates companies who turn a profit and pays millions in tax money to pay for healthcare, roads et cetera. ;) "

Precious few of the companies in the HD-DVD/BD camp pay taxes to European nations-- that's the innate problem here.


RE: What?
By ElJefe69 on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: What?
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 1:49:18 AM , Rating: 2
i dont really agree...
dont you know anything about your roots? dont you know anything about where you came from? man, you gotta realize that without Europe, there wont be any US, any Mexico, any cheap girls from Latin America....
this just makes me so furious, y´all come from Europe, men...


RE: What?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 8:35:19 AM , Rating: 2
> "dont you know anything about your roots? dont you know anything about where you came from? "

European culture is the basis for modern civilization, agreed. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the argument at hand, however.


RE: What?
By tuteja1986 on 7/28/2006 11:27:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think they need a new a company to play with , Microsoft has become boring to them. Now they need to teach Sony and Toshiba a lesson.


RE: What?
By MrPieGuy on 7/29/2006 2:24:50 AM , Rating: 2
Hah that was my EXACT thought when I first read the headline. They just needed to make sure those millions a day MS is giving them dont stop once Microsoft is finished "complying" with whatever the EU wants.


Go sensationalism!
By Lonyo on 7/28/2006 8:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
Go sensationalism!
Wow, the standards are really dropping.

I see NOTHING of the EU laucnhing an anti-trust case against HD-DVD or BluRay, just asking for details to find out if there are any rule breaches.

The title makes it seem like the EU is out to get both formats.
They are out to get information about the formats to give them the once over. Hardly even remotely the same thing.




RE: Go sensationalism!
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/28/2006 10:51:53 PM , Rating: 1
"It's rather more than just a polite request for more information."
That's your opinion... on the news I only read quoted "We sent a letter earlier this month to the makers of HD DVD and Blu-ray to request information about licensing"
"There are no indications of any complaint, nor of any antitrust concerns on the part of the Commission or anyone else"


RE: Go sensationalism!
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:17:10 AM , Rating: 2
You can downplay it if you want, but the EU spokesman made it real clear already.
quote:
The European Commission has launched an unofficial antitrust probe into the two emerging DVD formats championed by Toshiba and Sony, a spokesman said Thursday.

That's from the referenced Yahoo article. Obviously an "unofficial antitrust probe" is not the same as just sending a letter.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 2:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
I don’t care about the news writer wrote, I only go by what they really said and its clearly written that they only sent a letter... but feel free to start gearing up your weapons like if there was a anti-trust case already.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:09:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don’t care about the news writer wrote

Translation: Don't confuse me with the facts.

Sorry, the writer did not state an opinion or an interpretation of EU actions. The writer wrote that a spokesman said that the EU had launched an unoffical antitrust probe. That is stated as a fact, period. No wiggle room there.

If you want to dispute the fact, that's fine, but you need to present some evidence if you want to convince anyone.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 9:14:20 PM , Rating: 2
No, he wrote his interpretation of what was said, what is quoted on the news is what was said and it's clearly written, the EU sent a letter and there's no anti-trust case yet, common stop talking about something that may happen in the future... or not.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 9:20:48 PM , Rating: 2
> "No, he wrote his interpretation of what was said"

I'm unsure why you are arguing against simple truth. The EC has begun an antitrust probe. No one has said they've started an antitrust case. The difference between the two is clear in everyone's mind except, apparently, your own.


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:36:22 PM , Rating: 2
"No one has said they've started an antitrust case."
No but you said "They're launching an antitrust probe, which is the first step in a formal case. It's rather more than just a polite request for more information."
So no, its not rather more than request for information but a request for information plain and simple, depending on the answer we may get or not an anti-trust case. Do you now see the difference between what you say and what it’s actually happening?...


RE: Go sensationalism!
By Merry on 7/29/2006 7:55:57 PM , Rating: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5221658.stm

Unless you have any secret inside information.


By the way, masher2 and tomz, you have far too much time on your hands.


Lol
By vhx on 7/28/2006 11:20:56 PM , Rating: 2
I knew this would turn into an EU vs. US fight before I even opened the article. How pathetic.

Bozilla grow up, you are a disgrace to your country.

TBH I blame the media, and anyone who listens to the media.




RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 8:28:57 AM , Rating: 1
Some people have a dent against the EU... I cant really blame them after all we said loud and clear we wouldn’t play the US games anymore… anyway there’s a lot of hypocrite people speaking here hiding facts and “forgetting” others just for the sake of talking crap… just look to news its all about a letter and yet people already speak like if it was a real case, it took almost 2 years between the time the EU sent a similar letter to MS and actually doing something about it, how about you guys wait till then to start talking crap?...


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 9:19:53 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Some people have a dent against the EU

That's a pretty dumb statement considering the nature of the debate. If you look back (please do, you will see I'm right), the entire discussion was due to bozilla's ruthless attack against US citizens based on total ignorance. What I and others did was to, one at a time, counter his/her ignorant statements with the real facts of the situation.

So don't sit there with some "greater than thou" attitude like the EU got attacked, because it didn't go down that way at all.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 10:55:31 AM , Rating: 1
Feel free to look back... the EU wrote a letter yet you guys (mainly masher2) speaks as if they were already suing them...

The entire discussion you guys had was due to the starter calling Europeans as funny people then bozilla replied back on the same coin.

And just look to all the other topics...
1st topic is neutral
2nd calls Europeans funny people...
3rd neutral
4th neutral
5th neutral
6th asks if we don’t have anything better to do...
7th asks if we need money that bad...
8th neutral
9th tired of the EU bickering

So that makes 4 out of 9 topics that attack the EU directly more so than what they did... and I’m pretty sure it’s about the same thing in all the other EU “news” if not worst...


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:07:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The entire discussion you guys had was due to the starter calling Europeans as funny people then bozilla replied back on the same coin.

Neutral? I would hardly call the following "neutral":
quote:
Statements like this are dead-on example of ignorance and selfishness of most Americans. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes an American or an american company better or more important then the rest of the world. You are not alone in the world, get that in your head.

Bozilla's post was following by an entire series of posts in the same vein. The bulk of the comments on this thread are his anti-American points and our counterpoints. I would hardly call the thread anti-EU. The theme of bozilla's posts is that Americans are ignorant idiots compared with Europeans. As we respond to that grossly inaccurate stereotype, it may sound anti-EU, but it isn't.


RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 11:09:15 AM , Rating: 1
I should also point out that the OP that bozilla was responding to had nothing to do with America. I pointed this out right away, but bozilla carried on with his/her vicious attacks.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By TomZ on 7/29/2006 4:02:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You mean the bulk of the comments on this thread are his anti-American points and your pro-American counterpoints... right?!

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. And pro-American does not equal anti-EU. Get it?


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/06, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By masher2 (blog) on 7/29/2006 3:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
> "the entire discussion was due to bozilla's ruthless attack against US citizens based on total ignorance"

These threads are all alike...they immediately become invaded by European teenagers who, after labelling all Americans as ignorant, promptly begin displaying their own total lack of knowledge of events outside their own borders. Here in this thread alone, we have people claiming Americans "never travel", that unemployment in the US is higher than in the EU, and, most astounding of all, that "90%" of Americans grow up in single-parent homes.

Take Strunf, for example. In a past thread, he demonstrated an appalling ignorance of the history of his own continent, much less the rest of the world...and yet here he is again, up to his same old tricks.

Its simple human nature. Europeans once had power and prestige. Their current status rankles them, so they lash out at a convenient target. I suppose that, in the centuries to come when US influence fades, we'll wind up in the same boat.


RE: Lol
By Strunf on 7/29/2006 4:54:05 PM , Rating: 2
ya ya I'm here only to correct you dumb statements if you dont like it how about not posting more dumb statements :P

Me playing tricks... dude I'm not of your kind.


RE: Lol
By Hare on 7/30/2006 4:56:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its simple human nature. Europeans once had power and prestige. Their current status rankles them, so they lash out at a convenient target. I suppose that, in the centuries to come when US influence fades, we'll wind up in the same boat.
And now europe don't have power or prestige :) I can't really agree... Your assumption of the people living in europe being jealous is just naive.

This is mostly because the europeans don't even want to compare the europe vs the US because we have contries like Turkey trying to get to the EU. There are countries in europe that have poor economy etc. On the other hand there are countries like Finland that have practically zero corruption, world best healthcare, growing economy etc.

The US looks like heaven when you compare it to Turkey but compare it to a scandinavian country and the US no longer looks any better. Apples != Oranges.


RE: Lol
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:58:36 AM , Rating: 2
why you guyz always have to come up with potential cospiracy theory?
Europe DOESNT wanna compete with USA, it DOESNT wanna attack USA and once and for all, USA is better then Europe, we all know it...
and for the record, Europe does have prestige and fame in the world, i guess its the third or fourth importer in USA... :D


RE: Lol
By masher2 (blog) on 7/31/2006 10:18:16 AM , Rating: 1
> "Europe DOESNT wanna compete with USA..."

quote:
BBC News - France is spearheading a project to make European literary works available online in an effort to counter growing US cultural dominance worldwide...


Does anything not?
By FITCamaro on 7/28/2006 3:06:48 PM , Rating: 3
Does anything not break their competition rules?




RE: Does anything not?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
look my comment above, it goes the same for you.


RE: Does anything not?
By therealnickdanger on 7/28/2006 3:26:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
by bozilla on July 28, 2006 at 3:23 PM
look my comment above, it goes the same for you.

Then how do you explain this? Actual EU meeting minutes (no really, it's authentic):

Geoff: Hey Olaf, how was your vacation to the Apls?
Olaf: Gut. Enuf chit-chot, who are we to sue today?
Hernando: Well, with the money we're extorting from Microsoft, the sky's the limit!
Olaf: Was ist dis Blu-Ray und HD-DVD? Can we sue dem? Do zey have enuf monies?
Geoff: Hmm, why don't we look into it. Let's get their attention and see what they do...
Hernando: Agreed!
Olaf: The vinner of dis format war ist going to pay for their success!!


RE: Does anything not?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
yes, sure ;)

and im sure the person writing down the minutes was sure to put accents in with the minutes to make it sound more authentic :P


without a doubt the worst this place has been
By sapbeast on 7/29/2006 4:46:42 PM , Rating: 2
whatever happen to people following the rules?

* Harassing other users or employees
* Excessive use of derogatory language
* Excessive “neffing” or posting pointless, offtopic comments
* Spamming

I think you all have gone overboard




RE: without a doubt the worst this place has been
By NagoyaX on 7/29/2006 9:24:28 PM , Rating: 2
I would have to agree y do these post always end up as US vs the World or US vs EU???


By non gay european on 7/31/2006 2:51:20 AM , Rating: 2
you see, there lies a problem...
either US or EU citizens are not willing to accept the fact that sumbody attacks either US or EU policies...
realize, that each country has its own history, each country has experienced good and bad times...
and i bet none of wants to go through the bad times again, hence the "pesimistic" policy against Sony and Toshiba....
without any doubt, i can say that EU speaks for Europe, people elected EU bureaus, therefore we accept this policy and me, personally, i aint got anything against US...in contrary I DO respect US citizens, as good, faithful people and USA as the one and only superpower of the world...
still there are some issues betwenn USA and EU, but i DON know why? we should be cooperating on the ITER project... :D


By jtesoro on 7/31/2006 7:08:59 AM , Rating: 2
This thing was such an interesting read (and quite a long one).

I tend to agree that it has gone overboard, and I had to review the discussion to see how the entire thing happened. Interesting how it starts out relatively innoccuously, then it got provocative and pretty soon all out war ensues. In the cast of characters, there's some who seem itching for a fight, some a bit more defensive, etc., etc. In the longest thread, someone actually started out trying to be neutral and prevent escalation, but unfortunately it got to the point where he got swept in himself.

Sadly, I'll bet real wars are just like this...


licensing terms
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
wasnt it part of these new formats licensing that you dont really own the disk..but have a license to view its content but you cannot transfer the license to another..aka you can't resell it?

if so..i wonder if thats what they are talking about..and if so..kudos to them.





RE: licensing terms
By kattanna on 7/28/2006 3:44:06 PM , Rating: 2
never mind..found out what they are talking about


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5221658.stm


The Commission wants to know details of how the makers of the two new formats plan to license out their products to hardware manufacturers wanting to make new DVD players, as well as to firms wishing to produce the new discs themselves


Look who's talking
By Gasaraki88 on 7/30/2006 12:21:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.


Wow, that's pretty funny. This means that if I visited a country for 8 days I become an expert on that country and can have valid opinons about that country yet if I visit for less than 7 days I am an ignorant being and can have absolutly no valid opinions about that country. I guess I better start visiting every country in the world for 8 days so I can be edumacated all about the different countries.


Also... yeah yeah war is bad. Why don't you ask the people in the countries and villages that can't defend themselves and are being attacked if they want someone to come help and protect them. Why don't you ask the people in Poland, Belgium, The Netherlands, France, etc, etc during WWII and see if they were happy some countries were willing to start a war to protect them.

"In order to protect peace, you have to be willing to go to war"




just a few notes
By XtremeM3 on 7/31/2006 6:32:59 AM , Rating: 2
I've been traveling for almost 4 years now, and I'll tell you...I miss the states when i'm away(except once when I was on a small remote island outside of Greece in the Ionian Sea). I've been to Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Just getting that out of the way before I get attacked for "never leaving the US"

First off, the war issue...retarded, let it go. One of my all time favorite quotes ever is

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy,
forget in time that men have died to win them."

If you don't know who said it, you should...I'll let you google it. It's very true and if people would think about things logically they would realize at no time when a war was started did everyone have all the facts(the people in general). Looking back into history books now it's easy to say... "Thanks USA for bailing us out, we didn't really want to learn German" We have support from other countries for a reason. I promise that the government(s) & military(ies) knows more about what is going on that you. I PROMISE.

As far as the arguements of "Look at your roots" - "You all came from Europe" etc, etc. I'm sorry...what does that say about you? No, really...think about it. The US has existed for how long? As compared to *insertyourcountryhere*? And it has how big of a role in *insertANYTHINGhere*? Not bad for a fetus in comparison to the age of others...

But you're right, the US was populated with people who...left Europe right? I don't know about you guys, but If I've got a good deal going...I'm not moving. Guess quite a few people didn't think where they were was all that great. Maybe they should have talked to you... :)

haha...i'm done now. I'm sure someone is REALLY pissed off about this and can't wait to take it apart line by line. But I really just commented because it's been a slow news day on DailyTech and I'm bored at work - I hope the person that does do that isn't actually taking time they could be doing something personally productive and I hope they are just screwing the company they work for by wasting time answering my ramblings during work hours...otherwise...i feel sorry for you and your need to waste personal time argueing over the internet.... LOL





anti- bla lawsuit?
By michal1980 on 7/28/06, Rating: -1
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:21:43 PM , Rating: 1
if you were less ignorant and more informed about everyday life you would understand why antitrust enforcement is very very important. Unlike States where everything goes as long as enough government agencies are greased up with cash, in Europe this is not possible.

Europe has their own companies to protect from united giants and of course it's a normal and justifiable thing to raise antitrust lawsuits when they try to force themselves onto the markets.

It's called democracy and sovereignty of EU, if these companies don't like it, they don't have to sell things in Europe, it's as simple as that.

Statements like this are dead-on example of ignorance and selfishness of most Americans. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes an American or an american company better or more important then the rest of the world. You are not alone in the world, get that in your head.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Schadenfroh on 7/28/2006 3:24:24 PM , Rating: 3
So, Europeans think that Sony and Toshiba are American companies now?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By non gay european on 7/31/2006 1:56:45 AM , Rating: 2
first of, gotta do a bit of Economy...
second, dont f**k with Europe, man....
cuz half of the world come from Europe, our lauzy civilization and culture started in Europe, one probe and you act like "those EU are funny..." or "EU are just non-gay fags"....
oh man, please...first evaluate yourselves instead of our...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 3:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
How did you figure out that the OP was American or expressing a stereotypical American belief?

...or do you just have it in for America?. You showed up for a fight that doesn't even exist yet, in two ways. First, you already frames this as an EU-vs-America debate, which only exists in your mind so far. Second, the EU has not even taken any action than to request information. So really this is all a moot point since really nothing is going on - there is no official anti-trust probe even started.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 3:44:20 PM , Rating: 2
My response was geared toward the comment that came from obviously an ignorant person. Only American would make statements like that.

I never said this was US thing, however it reflects the attitude of majority of Americans towards EU or any other country.

Sony and Toshiba and other corporations have fairly big influence in the United States. The only thing I was stating is that EU is NOT like United States that allows everything to go through, without regard of whether or not these things hurt the consumer or not.

I live in the States and I'm just stating what I see here and I was born in Europe and I'm very well informed and understand the reasoning behind this.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:00:51 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
My response was geared toward the comment that came from obviously an ignorant person. Only American would make statements like that.

Sorry, not all Americans are ignorant, and not all ignorant people live in America. This should be obvious to you, even if you choose to ignore this fact.
quote:
I never said this was US thing, however it reflects the attitude of majority of Americans towards EU or any other country.

Bullshit, you totally make this a US thing. Read what you wrote! Read the last paragraph!
quote:
Sony and Toshiba and other corporations have fairly big influence in the United States. The only thing I was stating is that EU is NOT like United States that allows everything to go through, without regard of whether or not these things hurt the consumer or not.

Sorry, that is wrong in many ways - you are displaying the same ignorance that you accuse the OP of. For instance, in the U.S., major mergers and acquisitions need to be approved by the U.S. government to evaluate their possible impact on competition. There are many other examples.
quote:
I live in the States and I'm just stating what I see here and I was born in Europe and I'm very well informed and understand the reasoning behind this.

Well you must have a real problem if you live in America and have such obvious contempt for Americans. If you take the time to get to know some Americans, and are honest with yourself, you will find that most Americans are good, honest, friendly people who have a deep commitment to right and wrong, and who fight for what they believe in. In other words, Americans are not unlike other people throughout most of the world, at least based on my experience.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:09:59 PM , Rating: 2
Tomz I never said Americans are bad people, quite the opposite some of my best friends are Americans.

I just said majority is very ignorant and just don't have time to deal with reality because they have to pay their bills and watch their Oprahs. You are in denial if you truly think this is not the case.

For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.
You need to experience some other country's system, meet people etc to form your opinion, not something that CNN or other news networks chew it up for you so it is completey American oriented.

Sorry, that is wrong in many ways - you are displaying the same ignorance that you accuse the OP of. For instance, in the U.S., major mergers and acquisitions need to be approved by the U.S. government to evaluate their possible impact on competition. There are many other examples.

You are conveniently omitting the fact that these same federal agencies are bought in many ways by the same corporations they are approving so it's just a big joke. It wasn't like this before, but it is these days. All about the money. You should listen to a few people who were a part of the government and who commented on how these big corporations influence government decisions through donations etc. You live in an illusion my friend.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 4:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Tomz I never said Americans are bad people, quite the opposite some of my best friends are Americans. I just said majority is very ignorant...

Please help me understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean, ignorant relative to Europeans? Ignorant about what subjects, exactly? Are you yourself fully informed on all subjects? Or are you also ignorant?
quote:
For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that? You might have but a huge majority never left their cities little less the States. I can't expect a valid opinion from someone who gets all of their information from a TV and web and only from time to time.

Your assertion that only people who have traveled overseas would be in a position to express an informed viewpoint is, frankly, pretty stupid. It's like saying that I can't learn anything about nuclear physics unless I have direct access to an particle accelerator. Your argument makes no sense.
quote:
You need to experience some other country's system, meet people etc to form your opinion, not something that CNN or other news networks chew it up for you so it is completey American oriented.

Sorry, again, but firsthand experiential learning is not the only form of learning. In addition, where do you develop an expectation that American media would not have a pro-American bias? And that American citizens wouldn't expect a pro-American bias? Do you understand nothing about human nature?
quote:
You are conveniently omitting the fact that these same federal agencies are bought in many ways by the same corporations they are approving so it's just a big joke.

Proof? I simply do not accept your theory that the will and responsibility of the government simply bends when corporations want it to. Without any evidence, your unfounded assertions are just characters sitting in a web server database.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By bozilla on 7/28/2006 4:51:17 PM , Rating: 1
Please help me understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean, ignorant relative to Europeans? Ignorant about what subjects, exactly? Are you yourself fully informed on all subjects? Or are you also ignorant?

Ignorant about everything that's going around them. Not all though, but unfortunately a huge majority. It's just lack of interest in many things that is making this a reality and then you get to talk to someone who's defending a war. It's completely idiotic. First of all I experienced war and bombing and there's nothing justifiable about it. It's easy to make uninformed comments when you sit on your couch without experiencing anything.

Your assertion that only people who have traveled overseas would be in a position to express an informed viewpoint is, frankly, pretty stupid. It's like saying that I can't learn anything about nuclear physics unless I have direct access to an particle accelerator. Your argument makes no sense.

You see, you are showing your ignorance here and comparing completely different things. Of course that a person who travels and sees other things, like experience different cultures, governments, and overall different type of life can bring a more objective opinion to the table.

Your comparison is completely invalid. Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what. Your comment is ridiculous.


Proof? I simply do not accept your theory that the will and responsibility of the government simply bends when corporations want it to. Without any evidence, your unfounded assertions are just characters sitting in a web server database.


Proof, you really need to get more informed. Watch news and interviews with governement officials that went out of that scene and wrote books about how the government works and how they get sponsored. It's all about favors, in these books they also give suggestions of how the system should work to avoid these things. But I guess you need to read and be interested more in what's wrong in order to see this. Of course you'll never see a document that says "Oh yes we took money and enforced this law for this corporation", you need to be logical and informed to understand what's going on.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 5:05:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ignorant about everything that's going around them. Not all though, but unfortunately a huge majority. It's just lack of interest in many things that is making this a reality and then you get to talk to someone who's defending a war. It's completely idiotic. First of all I experienced war and bombing and there's nothing justifiable about it. It's easy to make uninformed comments when you sit on your couch without experiencing anything.

Your experience doesn't bring you more objectivity as you claim. Instead it clouds your views with emotions. Sorry to break it to you, but the reality is that there are situations in which war is justified. There are situations where war leads to less suffering. Just look at history. What if America didn't get involved in WW-II - what would have been the outcome, especially for Europeans? America's participation in that was was completely justified. History has many examples of what are considered "just" wars that you are ignoring.
quote:
Your comparison is completely invalid. Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what. Your comment is ridiculous.

Your view makes no sense, since it is the equivalent of, nothing that I learn makes any sense unless I experience it firsthand. That is not how humans learn. I understand and agree that traveling does help one develop a perspective, but that is not the only way to develop a perspective.
quote:
Proof, you really need to get more informed. Watch news and interviews with governement officials that went out of that scene and wrote books about how the government works and how they get sponsored. It's all about favors, in these books they also give suggestions of how the system should work to avoid these things. But I guess you need to read and be interested more in what's wrong in order to see this. Of course you'll never see a document that says "Oh yes we took money and enforced this law for this corporation", you need to be logical and informed to understand what's going on.

The basic mistake you make in your reasoning is that you equate influence with corruption. These are two related, but different, things. Influence is not wrong. Influence and power is how politics work, both in America and in Europe. You cannot deny this basic fact.

And sorry, I do not agree with your implication that politicians accept campaign contributions and/or bribes from corporations to avoid prosecution under the law. The American government may not be efficient, but it is certainly not this corrupt.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By aos007 on 7/28/2006 6:31:07 PM , Rating: 2
His arguments (about experience, at least) make perfect sense. For an example - do you really expect to be able to build an audio amplifier just by learning theory and reading datasheets, without ever having held a soldering iron before? Or as a beginner programmer read a few books on software design and apply for the job of software architect.

Sometimes there's no substitute for experience. And when it comes to culture and human relations there IS no substitute. You can read books and watch CNN all you want and memorize CIA factsheets, but if you don't experience things first hand you shouldn't expect to really understand it.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 9:03:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
His arguments (about experience, at least) make perfect sense.

I agree they make some sense, to a point. His thesis is that experiential learning is the only type of learning that counts. I am arguing that other forms of learning can also help lead someone to a valid "world perspective." It's true that you can only learn the detailed, true nature of what is like to live in a country by actually living there. But that type of knowledge isn't necessarily a requisite for being able to otherwise learn about and reason about a country or region of the world.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 5:22:23 PM , Rating: 2
> "Try to experience war for example, first hand, and then I would ask you if it's justifiable to get into one after that, no matter what"

What war have you personally experienced? Myself, I've been on the periphery of two different war situations. The last was on the Thai-Kampuchea border, when Khmer rebels were shelling a refugee camp

This refugee "camp" held perhaps 100,000 people....half of which appeared to be children, many of which had lived most or all their lives in the camp. All had stories to tell of Khmer butchery and torture. Many were orphans...with parents killed not accidently in crossfire, but intentionally in one of the many Khmer purges. I met a young boy there...his nose was smeared across his face, all the way around to his left ear. Why? Because at age 4, a Khmer soldier had picked him up, bashed him against a tree a few times, and left him for dead.

Now, are you going to sit there on your pretentious, ill-informed backside and claim that making war against the Khmer Rouge wasn't "justified"? What utter ignorance! What inconceivable gall! You sir, are an ass.



RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
> "Tomz I never said Americans are bad people..."

You merely stereotyped them all as ignorant and selfish. If that isn't "bad" in your opinion, what is? Cannibalism?

> "For example, have you ever left the country for more then 5-7 days if that?"

I've lived and worked in several foreign nations, and visited several dozen others on five different continents. And those experiences reinforced my opinion-- the more a nation treats business as an "enemy of the people"...the worse off the people are.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By smitty3268 on 7/28/2006 5:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
And those experiences reinforced my opinion-- the more a nation treats business as an "enemy of the people"...the worse off the people are.

Slave owners everywhere would love you... :)

Seriously, now, Americans are exactly like the people in every other country. Small differences may arise from our history and circumstances. We're richer and more powerful, so we don't tend to have to care as much about what other people think. We are so large and (mostly) isolated geographically that people don't get out of the country nearly as much as Europeans, for example. Our history makes us a bit more militarily agressive than many other people.

Other traits might be a bit different, but if other countries were in the same position we are then I have no doubt their people would be acting exactly the same.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Uncle Sam on 7/28/2006 3:29:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yes we are more important. You only wish you were born here!


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By PrinceGaz on 7/31/2006 9:02:58 AM , Rating: 2
lol, you're not being serious, are you?

Whilst the US is a better place to live than the majority of the world, it is not better than every country. I would personally never consider swapping my UK citizenship (and where I was born) for growing up in the not so good "US and A". In fact there are very few countries I would have swapped it for, the most likely being Norway, but most certainly not the US.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By BioRebel on 7/28/2006 3:31:22 PM , Rating: 2
Even if it means forcing companies to hand over code they worked for 20 years to keep secret and then set-up smaller government funded progaming companies to rip-off the code and then shun out the owner? Face it, the EU is only performing 90% of these acts because they can't tax the companies directly.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Hare on 7/29/2006 6:33:22 AM , Rating: 2
Hahaha. Yes. That's exactly what the EU is doing... NOT !


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By OrSin on 7/28/2006 3:31:55 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry that a load of crap. EU is concerned about the who much profit is coming to thier companies. period. Nothing else. EU doesn develop much anymore and have to rely of lisence and from other countries and they are all ready to make a stink about anything that doesn't profit them.

Why the hell is this any for of american basing going on. None of these companies are american.

Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them.

Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it. EU is trying to fine thier way to profit in stead of develeoping any R&D


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Merry on 7/28/2006 3:41:18 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry that a load of crap. EU is concerned about the who much profit is coming to thier companies. period. Nothing else. EU doesn develop much anymore and have to rely of lisence and from other countries and they are all ready to make a stink about anything that doesn't profit them.

Why the hell is this any for of american basing going on. None of these companies are american.

Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them.

Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it. EU is trying to fine thier way to profit in stead of develeoping any R&D


Ok, firstly, can you learn to spell. Secondly can you do a little research into the EU and its goals, you will see your judgement is wrong.

I am not making a comment on your intelligence, but your knowledge of the EU is apparently somewhat lacking.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Spoonbender on 7/28/2006 4:31:28 PM , Rating: 2
hahahahaa, yeah, the 5$ per EU citizen they fined Microsoft is sure gonna come in handy. We're going to use the money to buy all the US's nuclear missiles and fire them back at ya....

Sorry, but saying EU is trying to "profit" by fining companies is just so ridiculous it's hard to take seriously.

"Lastly if you (EU) dont like what we are selling then don't buy it"
I think you got it the wrong way around. If you (any company) don't like the terms your product is sold under, then don't sell it in areas where these terms apply. If a company sells a product in the EU, that breaks EU law, then that company is fined. If they didn't want to be fined, they shouldn't break the law. Either by not selling in Europe, or by, well, following the law in the first place.

"Third thier is no suck thing as democracy and sovereighty together. Sovern governments look after themselves and do give dman about the laws of other countries unless it directly affests them. "
Ok, I just can't read that. I thought Americans were supposed to be relatively good at their language?
Even if I try to guess my way past the spelling errors, I still can't make sense of the sentence itself.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 4:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
> "hahahahaa, yeah, the 5$ per EU citizen they fined Microsoft is sure gonna come in handy..."

If you don't think a free $1.6B windfall profit is attractive to a government body, garnered from no more effort than the stroke of a pen, then you understand nothing about government. If you don't realize its doubly attractive when its not taken from voters, then you don't understand elected politicians either.

In any case, you ignore the EU's largest means of profiting from plundering Microsoft's IP. It's not the fine itself, its the benefits given to European companies...who, presumably, will see increased revenues from the deal. Revenues that translate into higher employment and a larger tax base.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme.

If you think that 'raiding Microsofts IPs' is the largest way the EU can profit then pray-tell how on earth we got that 12 trillion USD GDP?

Spray some deodrant about, i smell the scent of a Anti-EU biased American.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Xavian on 7/28/2006 6:06:44 PM , Rating: 2
pretty = petty.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:26:28 PM , Rating: 2
> "please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme."

Oops again. The total fines to Microsoft are now in the neighborhood of $1.6B. The total budget of the EU was, in 2004, $130B. So this one fine alone pays over 1% of the total operating costs of the EU...with no guarantee there won't be more fines in the future.


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 6:27:35 PM , Rating: 2
> "So this one fine alone..."

To be correct, this one series of fines...


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By TomZ on 7/28/2006 7:06:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
please when you have a union whos GDP reaches 12 trillion USD (1st in the world btw), then the pretty amount of 168 (i think thats right) million USD is trivial in the extreme.

Yes, first after the U.S. you mean.

US GDP: $12.36 trillion (2005)
EU GDP: $12.18 trillion (2005)

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos...
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos...

Also, pardon me if I think it is a bit daft to compare the fine against an invididual company against the combined GDP of a 25-nation union.

quote:
Spray some deodrant about, i smell the scent of a Anti-EU biased American.

Do I sense an ad hominem argument coming on?


RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By Strunf on 7/28/06, Rating: 0
RE: anti- bla lawsuit?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/28/2006 8:27:37 PM , Rating: 2
> "Aren’t you guys implying we are fining MS to get rich or something... "

Not to "get rich", just to grab a few billion in free money. Every little bit helps.