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After downing Microsoft, the EU is hot on the chase of its latest target, Intel

After bringing the world's biggest and most profitable software corporation, Microsoft, to its knees with a record $2.6B USD total in antitrust fines, the European Union began a serious investigation of chip maker Intel and whether it committed antitrust violations.

Intel, the world's largest chipmaker, fluctuates between having around 80 to 90 percent of the global microprocessor market, something some would term a monopoly, but which the business world terms more accurately as a "dominant position".  After a lengthy investigation -- featuring such assignment as raids of Intel offices in Europe -- the EU decided it had enough evidence to file formal charges.  The EU charged Intel with abusing its dominant position by using price slashing and illegal rebates to drive smaller chipmakers out of business and trying to create a monopoly.

Obviously, Intel disagreed.  Now the European Commission (EC), the EU's business monitoring unit, has battered Intel with a fresh round of charges.  It claims it has evidence that Intel bribed a leading European retailer not to stock products containing chips made by rival AMD.  It also charges Intel with paying the retailer to delay the release of a product containing AMD chips.  AMD had previously made such claims, but was unable to prove them, thus far.  It also accused Intel of giving illegal incentives to switch to its chips.

The EC has given Intel eight weeks to respond formally to the charges.  Intel officials say that they are "disappointed" by the charges.  The EC paints Intel as a bully in the report, stating that it "used its considerable muscle to provide substantial rebates to a leading European PC retailer - conditional on it selling only Intel-based PCs."

A statement from Intel rebuffed this view and accused the EU of conspiring with rival AMD, arguing, "The issuance of a second Statement of Objections suggests that the Commission supports AMD's position that Intel should be prevented from competing fairly and offering price discounts which have resulted in lower prices for consumers.  The allegations stem from the same set of complaints that our competitor, AMD, has been making to regulators and courts around the world for more than 10 years."

The chip giant will have to make another formal response against the three new charges in Brussels.  Under its laws, if the European Union finds Intel to be guilty, it can fine it up to 10 percent of its international yearly revenue.  This could amount in as much as $4B USD, as Intel's yearly income is around $40B USD.  The E.U. Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes, who approved the fines against Microsoft, believes that Intel may be a "bigger threat to competition" than Microsoft, so such a fine is not unimaginable.

Intel is making record profits while it’s much smaller rival AMD suffers.  Intel claims this is thanks to smart engineering and business, while AMD bemoans that it is constantly being stabbed in the back by Intel

Despite its financial success, the international legal community seems to be considering AMD's concerns, and as a result Intel has struggled with recent legal troubles.  It is being investigated by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) in the U.S. for possible antitrust violations.  In South Korea, it was found guilty of abusing its dominant position and fined $25M USD.  Finally, it is the subject of an ongoing investigation in Japan.



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If you do the crime...
By martinrichards23 on 7/18/2008 11:22:19 AM , Rating: 4
...you do the time.

The charges against Intel are extremely serious, if they are proven true then Intel deserves to be punished heavily.

Enforcing competition laws is one of the cornerstones of a strong economy. Indeed, many experts will tell you one reason America has historically such a strong economy and low prices is the enforcement of relatively powerful anti-trust laws.




RE: If you do the crime...
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: If you do the crime...
By Radnor on 7/18/2008 11:43:10 AM , Rating: 5
This isn't a case of semantics. Intel did it, more than one time. It is not needed to raid any headquarters. Just check the stores. One of the biggest European chains more than 500 stores only sells Intel. Or did.
Intel paid for that exclusivity, but hey, trust me that didnt downed the price of the product to the final consumer. Just Improved the Total sales for Intel and improve the profit margin to the distributor.

Big distribution doesn't care about you getting a better price,product or service, cares about making money. Big Money. Always been like that, wont change soon.

About EC laws not being as strong as in the US, the Sherman Act can be quite damaging in some situations. Its not that simple.


RE: If you do the crime...
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/18/2008 11:56:57 AM , Rating: 4
Yea... I wasn't arguing at all Intel's guilt or innocence, merely commenting on our legal policies versus Europe's.

I'm not arguing that Intel did do this. It seems like if EU claims to have so much evidence that it must have some truth to its arguments. I'm not trying to defend or exonerate Intel of any wrongdoing, though its obviously innocent until proving guilty.

As to the Sherman Act it is very broad and vague and is generally determined, thus by court interpretation. Vanilla price fixing is still illegal, but you virtually never see this among major companies, as they're not dumb enough to try it.

Before 1980 many anti-dominant business verdicts were indeed passed down under the Sherman Act, but since the 1980s this has sharply reversed. Currently a broad variety of new tactics have been adopted by businesses such as Intel force new intepretations of the Act. In most cases the more pro-business current legal atmosphere in the U.S. has outright dismissed many SA cases, and left the remainder to "rule of reason", requiring the plaintiff to prove the defendant acted as charged, some hard to do.

The act does forbid monopolies, but the court has interpreted this to mean "coercive" monopolies, not "innocent" ones. With the exception of some of the charges levelled against Microsoft, many monopolies have been deemed "innocent" with virtually none being deemed "coercive" (as this is hard to establish/prove).

This shift has led the Sherman Act to have little anticompetitive impact today, compared to global laws, other than serving as a continued discouragement against blatantly illegal behavior.

While it is fair to say that on paper EU antitrust laws (most importantly Article 81 EC) are no more or less strict than U.S. ones, their interpretation has been far more strict, making them in essence stronger.

This is fundamentally due to the fact that the U.S. still follows in a Chicago School style of antitrust enforcement, while the EU and many other nations/groups adhere to a so-called "post-Chicago School" policy, yielding less leniency in interpretations.


RE: If you do the crime...
By Ringold on 7/19/2008 2:27:03 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with most of the post, but calling the US position a Chicago school position confused me for a moment. We took a light touch approach to anti-trust concerns long before the Chicago school came to dominate, or even mildly influence, mainstream economics. We were up to our eyes in Keynesian gobbledygoop until the 80s, with the first neoliberal President of the 20th century being Reagan (who came complete with economics advisers who wore Adam Smith neck ties). A degree of pragmatism towards monopolies predates Hayek, Friedman et al.

Not that the Chicago school of thought views it any differently, just saying, I don't think it's where the policy came from. Wikipedia says the first Chicago-ish book of any influence wasn't written until 1921.

I wish McCain or Obama's advisors would wear Adam Smith ties. :\


RE: If you do the crime...
By BansheeX on 7/20/2008 3:14:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Intel paid for that exclusivity, but hey, trust me that didnt downed the price of the product to the final consumer. Just Improved the Total sales for Intel and improve the profit margin to the distributor.


This is actually quite common in the marketplace and fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with it if you understand free markets. Making mutually agreeable contracts with others to exclusively stock or use your product is as common as dirt. Both parties have to agree and take on the risks, nothing is forced. First, the consumer wants the best product. Let's grant that. If Intel is making 486s while AMD is making Athlons, and Intel offers a payout to Dell to only use their 486s, Dell now has to decide if that payout is going to outweigh the lost sales to competitors who ARE using better AMD chips. Because the consumer STILL has to buy the product in order for the scheme to work.

This clearly illustrates that there is still a correlation to the quality of the product, in which case sustainable growth can still only be made by offering the best product to customers obviously wanting the best product. Even if Intel actually had the enormous capital to buy exclusivity from every existing OEM, all it would take is one new OEM offering the supposedly better performing AMD chip to break not only Intel's back, but the OEMs who accepted the payout to only stock the inferior product. Obviously, that means that the payout HAS to always outweigh the losses to competitors who are making more money selling superior AMD chips.

If we don't understand this operation of the market and apply it to all companies no matter how large, we have a fundamental and irresolvable problem that will increase prices and transfer wealth from the economy to the people who are paid to "punish" this activity.

quote:
Big distribution doesn't care about you getting a better price,product or service, cares about making money. Big Money. Always been like that, wont change soon.


And in order to make money in a truly free market, you HAVE to offer a product people want at a price that beats your competitor's. That has always been true. While you can make deals with distributors, you can't force people to buy an inferior product no matter how many people you make deals with, because if people aren't buying it, the money to make the payouts dries up. You STILL have to deliver, nothing changes.

The only way to actually sustainably make money on an inferior service or product is to be connected with or be a part of the government. Only the government has the powers of forced payment taxation (enabling both special subsidies and special relief), inflation, and banning competing products. That is the only true coercive force in any market, and that is the driving force of poverty and self-sustaining monopolies throughout the world and time itself. Don't mistake the failures of government and corporatist collusion to the free market just because government is always looking for something to justify itself beyond what it is actually needed for. Socialism builds on itself from such misunderstandings, and it's amazing to see it happen time and time again throughout history, as people drift to totalitarian states and see them collapse. How many happy-go-lucky stories do we see from Mr. Mick paint pretty pictures about government "granting" subsidies to drive innovation, essentially dishing out coerced appropriations from citizens to whatever company raised the most for whatever politician is sponsoring the bill. That is the F*CKING definition of anti-consumer, anti-competitive practice. The consumer didn't get to decide J*CK EFFING SH*T with his hard-earned money. And then we get these pro-government antagonistic pieces on a company who did nothing wrong? This is just a monstrous joke and a total waste of resources. We should be working to end government industries, inflation, and ALL subsidies and special tax breaks. This is a total distraction from the real problem and DT should be perpetually ashamed.


RE: If you do the crime...
By The Irish Patient on 7/18/2008 1:51:31 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
if they are proven true then Intel deserves to be punished heavily


If it is proven that Intel violated European law, then the Europeans have every right to fine Intel for its activities in Europe.

However, only 19% of Intel's worldwide revenues are earned in Europe:

http://www.intc.com/intelAR2007/introduction/finan...

Yet the Europeans claim the right to assert a fine of 10% on Intel's entire worldwide revenues. This is the equivalent of a 50% fine on European revenues.

The Europeans are welcome to place whatever fine they want on European revenues. Then they can watch the cost of computers rise accordingly. But the U.S. government should not allow European enforcement of its laws to increase my costs, given that Intel's conduct is arguably legal under America's "powerful anti-trust laws." The Europeans are not my protector.


RE: If you do the crime...
By redbone75 on 7/18/2008 5:24:05 PM , Rating: 2
I wholly agree with you. For the EU to try to fine Intel based on their worldwide sales is ludicrous at best. The EU would be assuming it has worldwide jurisdiction, which it doesn't, and I would hope the US would directly intervene on Intel's behalf. Fine them however you want based on your laws in your countries, but get your hand out of cookie jars that aren't on your tables.


RE: If you do the crime...
By Solandri on 7/19/2008 5:09:58 PM , Rating: 3
This is a punitive fine, not a compensatory fine. That is, the fines are not meant to compensate Europe for any damages Intel may have caused. They're meant to punish Intel to discourage them (and anyone else) from engaging in said illegal behavior. If in order to accomplish this, they've determined that a fine of 10% of revenue is necessary, then that's what it is.

You can argue that 10% of revenue is excessive, but where that revenue comes from is irrelevant except in how it affects Intel's decision to continue to sell in that market.


RE: If you do the crime...
By FITCamaro on 7/19/2008 4:37:06 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. The EU has no right to charge a company for 10% of its worldwide revenue. Only for the revenue earned in its member countries. Especially when the crimes it is accusing the company of are not crimes in another country.


RE: If you do the crime...
By Hare on 7/19/2008 4:50:41 PM , Rating: 4
I'm curious. When the old grandma burned herself with her hot coffee, was the punitative fine a percentage from McDonalds global revenue or limited to just the city, state or country?

Intel is a single company operating globally.


RE: If you do the crime...
By RedStar on 7/18/2008 5:18:08 PM , Rating: 3
historically, the US got free capital from england when they succeded from the empire. Then we have the near extinction of the natives to get all that free land.

Then we have the robber/energy barrons that plundered to concentrate capital and it goes on ...until finally, someone decided that perhaps a lille anti trust law should be enacted to give the masses a "feeling" of security.

savings and loan crisis ...mortgage crisis ///

yups, the laws are working just fine and there is no trouble with the economy .

*rolls eyes*


RE: If you do the crime...
By rudolphna on 7/18/2008 9:33:04 PM , Rating: 2
that would be seceded :-)


RE: If you do the crime...
By RedStar on 7/19/2008 2:41:25 AM , Rating: 2
ya, it would be :)


RE: If you do the crime...
By Ringold on 7/19/2008 2:41:59 AM , Rating: 1
Didn't get your chance to rant/whine about the economy today, so decided to dump that on an unrelated post?

If you can't compare general growth rates, adjusted income, etc, and figure out that the US has, as the OP said, outperformed Europe in economic terms then sadly you are unable to read simple graphs. He was speaking in broad, long-run, macro terms, not whatever issue happens to annoy you any given year.

Besides, you don't want to dig in to current-day comparisons anyway, as our unemployment, even with such low growth, is still lower than the OECD average and significantly lower than most of Western Europe (Spain, for example). Further, the same "mortgage crisis" has impacted European banks as much as US ones; one British bank failed, and UBS (Swiss bank) has been pummeled. Much of Western Europe saw a housing price boom/bubble as we did, and their prices have also fallen off a cliff, along with construction and that component of GDP. In other words, their socialism ensured that they fell victim to the same ills but that they would do so with in some cases twice our unemployment.

But you wouldn't know any of that from any of the typical left-wing news sources out there. Watching CNN, one would think only America is sliding to low/no/slightly negative growth, only America has a housing crisis, and only America has financial firms on the brink of collapse, when in fact it is a global phenomenon. Of course, not in their interest to portray it as global, or to point out America has weathered the storm far better than some of its peers, as then it becomes harder to blame the party in the White House during an election year...


Microsoft
By SavagePotato on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft
By EntreHoras on 7/18/2008 11:45:17 AM , Rating: 3
Apple is sooooo cool, that even the EU will do nothing to against it. </Sarcasm>


RE: Microsoft
By omnicronx on 7/18/2008 11:51:29 AM , Rating: 1
Do you even know what a Monopoly is?
quote:
In Economics, monopoly (also "Pure oligopoly") exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it. [1] Monopolies are thus characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods. [2] Alternatively (a modern and less common usage), it may be used as a verb or adjective to refer to the process (see Monopolism) by which a firm gains persistently greater market share than what is expected under perfect competition. The latter usage of the term is invoked in the theory of monopolistic competition.
quote:
Probably never since Apple's sales in Europe are non existent at best
Damn those monopolies with non existent sales .


RE: Microsoft
By SavagePotato on 7/18/2008 3:06:01 PM , Rating: 2
Tell Psystar they are not monopolistic.

They might disagree.


RE: Microsoft
By SavagePotato on 7/18/2008 3:09:01 PM , Rating: 2
Oh by the way you might have missed the "in europe" part of that sentence, where indeed apple has poor sales, unlike the US where they are bragging about their amazing gains on a daily basis.

And lets not go into the fact that everything Microsoft gets penalized for (example integration of internet explorer into the OS) Apple does 100 times over.


RE: Microsoft
By RedStar on 7/18/2008 5:10:08 PM , Rating: 2
hello, ipod :)


RE: Microsoft
By Moishe on 7/18/2008 12:26:28 PM , Rating: 2
Certainly 2.6B doesn't "bring Microsoft to its knees".

What the U.S. should do is make a very restrictive set of laws and then start using those laws in the same way to raise cash for the government. That way, the money grab from the U.S. to the EU can be reversed a little.


RE: Microsoft
By Jedi2155 on 7/18/2008 3:22:03 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not a big of a fan as what you just said but we don't try something similar to some European subsidized industries in order to even up the par a bit *cough* airbus *cough*. That way we can have the Euro's fund us for a bit...


RE: Microsoft
By marsbound2024 on 7/19/2008 1:01:45 PM , Rating: 2
The corporations will pass those costs along to us consumers. And with the economy and inflation like it is already, I just don't think that's a very good idea. Besides, the government will probably do little good with whatever fines they collect. Build some more bridges to nowhere perhaps.


RE: Microsoft
By Solandri on 7/19/2008 5:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
Even in a poor economy, you want to encourage good competitive behavior, while simultaneously discouraging anti-competitive behavior. If you fail to do that, you may get out of the recession quicker, but the following period of growth will be stunted by the anti-market forces you've allowed to thrive.


RE: Microsoft
By jajig on 7/20/2008 9:39:29 AM , Rating: 2
This tactic is working wonders for Zimbabwe's economy, they have so much money now they had to make a $100 billion note!


RE: Microsoft
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 12:42:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The good question is when will the EU go after the most monopolistic computer company in existence. Apple.


I'm sorry? What has Apple got a monopoly in? Last I saw they had a market share of about 3-4%. Unless the definition of monopoly changed recently, I don't think the EU has any interest in Apple with the exception of the iPod/iTunes Store (we're still waiting for a ruling on that). Perhaps they have a monopoly on turtlenecks...


RE: Microsoft
By Hare on 7/19/2008 4:25:27 AM , Rating: 4
The EU is already whipping Apple for bundling the ipod/itunes and not allowing the ipod to sync properly with whatever system the user has. DRM issues are also a concern (you can't really buy a song from Apple and play it on another manufacturers player -> consumer tied to Apple).

Apple doesn't have a monopoly position in anything but it definately has a strong position in the portable music player market. That's why their iPod have also gotten EU's attention. That's about it. The EU couldn't care less about their computers since they have a 3-4% market share and haven't done anything illegal.


Personal Piggy Bank
By L33tMasta on 7/18/2008 1:30:34 PM , Rating: 1
The EU seems to think huge North American corporations are their personal piggy bank whenever they need large amounts of cash. Their fines are preposterous for whatever "crime" these companies have committed. If Intel and Microsoft both pulled out the EU would be left in a sorry state.




RE: Personal Piggy Bank
By jpeyton on 7/18/2008 2:00:29 PM , Rating: 3
If Intel and Microsoft "pulled out" of the EU, they would be pulling their products out of an economic union that is as large as the USA/Canada/Mexico combined. Classify that under "Stupid Business Decisions 101".

These accusations against Intel are a long time coming. Intel is being fined around the world for antitrust practices against AMD. They've bribed component manufacturers, OEMs, retailers; offered incentives or penalties if they didn't favor Intel's products over the competition. Remember that Intel is a major chipset manufacturer too; they muscled motherboard manufacturers into having Intel-only product lineups by holding their chipset shipments hostage.


RE: Personal Piggy Bank
By Hare on 7/19/2008 8:36:58 AM , Rating: 4
Dear L33tMasta,

I'm sure that AMD would be more than willing to fill the void if Intel pulled out. Same thing with MS. Pulling out from the EU markets would be absolutely idiotic and could never happen because stock holders wouldn't allow such madness.

I'm getting tired of hearing this stupid argument every time the EU is after a company from the US. Even if MS and Intel would pay 10 times the fines, they would still be very much profitable so there's no point pulling out of a profitable market. The current fines are quite big but compared to their annual revenue... not that big.


RE: Personal Piggy Bank
By Calin on 7/21/2008 2:56:27 AM , Rating: 2
There are certain differences in Microsoft versus Intel pulling out of EU market:
Intel only sells "NEW" thingies. You want to use your current computer? Intel be damned. And while it's true that AMD won't be able to supply all of the European Union with microprocessors, it might make a quick deal with a big taiwanese semiconductor company to increase production.
Meanwhile, some big companies choose to rent Microsoft software, with yearly payments. If Microsoft pulls out, this business model goes out the window at the end of the rent period (true, their US-based offices might pay for the purchase/rent for the european market)


RE: Personal Piggy Bank
By MrPoletski on 7/19/2008 12:28:30 PM , Rating: 2
And if the EU were to force Intel and MS out they would be in a far sorrier state.

Wont happen because it would be virtually suicide.


Huh?
By Spivonious on 7/18/2008 1:58:02 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe I'm just not familiar with the EU antitrust laws, but how does offering discounts for exclusivity agreements amount to illegal competition?

If Intel says to Dell "hey I have this product that I'll knock 10% off of if you don't carry AMD", is that illegal?

If so, then why is the iPhone locked into AT&T? Why do I have to buy a Mac to use OS X? Why do I have to buy a PS3 if I want to play MGS?




RE: Huh?
By caqde on 7/18/2008 3:18:04 PM , Rating: 2
..... Uhmm you should find a different example. Apple was the one making the decision about where and how their product was sold and Konami is the one that decided that their product would be sold only on the PS3. Now based off your decision AMD would have been the one telling them NOT to sell their product, but this is not the case it wasn't AMD's decision it was Intel's. This is what makes it different.


RE: Huh?
By RedStar on 7/18/2008 5:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
*boggles eyes*


RE: Huh?
By Yawgm0th on 7/20/2008 1:50:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If Intel says to Dell "hey I have this product that I'll knock 10% off of if you don't carry AMD", is that illegal?

Yes, that is illegal in the United States and most of Europe.
quote:
If so, then why is the iPhone locked into AT&T? Why do I have to buy a Mac to use OS X? Why do I have to buy a PS3 if I want to play MGS?

Locking a cell phone to a carrier is not the same thing. AT&T didn't bribe Apple to only sell AT&T, not did AT&T bribe Apple. AT&T was probably the only company willing to give Apple the share of data package sales that it wanted.

And developing software only for one system isn't even remotely comparable to illegal exclusivity.

In any case, the point here is not that there were companies with exclusively or almost exclusively Intel products being sold. The important part is that Intel allegedly bribed these companies and/or sold products at a loss in order to push its competitor out of the market.


RE: Huh?
By Spivonious on 7/21/2008 9:17:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And developing software only for one system isn't even remotely comparable to illegal exclusivity.


Why? If I have to have a Dell, then I guess I'm stuck with Intel chips. If I have to play MGS, then I guess I'm stuck with the PS3.


surely...
By plinkplonk on 7/18/2008 11:16:27 AM , Rating: 1
a 10% fine is not that big a deal for intel, if they want to punish them for abuse why not fine them 50% for example and see how they like it?




RE: surely...
By just4U on 7/18/2008 11:29:56 AM , Rating: 3
First things first. It needs to be proven that there was any improper behavior on Intel's part. I think, most of us believe there was some, atleast to a minor extent. We all heard the stories going around a few years back and probably seen examples of it first hand.

I do however think that the EU needs to moderate what they are doing somewhat. Some of these fines they hand out make it seem like they are sharks preying on whatever company they think they can reap the largest cash grab from.


RE: surely...
By Denithor on 7/18/2008 1:11:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some of these fines they hand out make it seem like they are sharks preying on whatever company they think they can reap the largest cash grab from.


You think they're not?!?

I just wonder what happens to those billions in fines. Is that what's propping up the socialistic EU countries?


RE: surely...
By The Irish Patient on 7/18/2008 12:32:46 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that the fine of 10% of revenue doesn't apply just to sales in the EU territories. The EU claims the right to apply its fine to all of Intel's worldwide sales, including those sales made here in the U.S.A. where Intel's behavior is arguably legal.

The effect is to subject U.S. companies operating in the U.S. to European law.

By U.S. law, AMD is no angel. See paragraph 48 of AMD's complaint against Intel, on page 18:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/Downl...

A company doesn't violate U.S. law by offering a discount on its product, as long as the price after discount isn't less than the cost of production. However, an offer (read "bribe") to provide one million CPUs for free is most likely illegal. The fact that AMD's offer wasn't accepted doesn't make its conduct any better.


How is this different?
By EvanaTm on 7/18/2008 5:10:47 PM , Rating: 3
Can someone tell me how what Intel is accused of doing is different than any other number of examples that exist today?

Look at KFC, Taco Bell, and Pizza Hut. The parent company was paid by Pepsi for exclusively serving only Pepsi products in their stores.

AT&T paid Apple a lot of money to exclusively have the iPhone on the AT&T network.

When I go to the store, sometimes there will be a deal that if I buy 4 12pk of soda, I'll get them for $2.50 a piece. Another store might not offer any such deal. Should that store offering a discount for buying in bulk be penalized?

Germany charges more for their BMWs in Germany than they do in the USA (or so I was under the impression).

Game developers are paid lots of money to sometimes have a title be exclusive to a specific console.

I realize that many of these examples might be different, but the intent is all the same. All of them are offering incentives to use or buy their product versus the competition.

Is it only different in this case because Intel had 70%+ market share?

I think it should be up to the business to give a discount for buying X amount of processors, even if it happens to meet the ENTIRE quota of processors a manufacturer might need.




RE: How is this different?
By jpeyton on 7/18/2008 7:07:06 PM , Rating: 2
It's obviously very different. Intel, if it wanted to, could legally purchase an exclusivity contract with a retailer, component manufacturer, OEM, etc. Of course, such a contract would be open to the scrutiny of both companies involved, and would be constructed so it would be mutually beneficial.

What Intel is accused of is illegally bribing certain officials within a retailer to not sell AMD's product. That makes no financial sense for the retailer as a whole because they would lose sales from not having AMD's product in stock, but it makes great financial sense for the officials getting bribed.

And it doesn't take a genius to figure out that bribing a company to intentionally delay the release of AMD's product is highly illegal and anti-competitive.

quote:
It claims it has evidence that Intel bribed a leading European retailer not to stock products containing chips made by rival AMD. It also charges Intel with paying the retailer to delay the release of a product containing AMD chips


Off Topic
By 325hhee on 7/18/2008 2:01:58 PM , Rating: 2
Does anyone know where I can get a full size picture of that cat, I love that picture, it looks so cool.




RE: Off Topic
By bribud on 7/18/2008 3:18:24 PM , Rating: 2
pffffft
By omnicronx on 7/18/2008 11:33:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
A statement from Intel rebuffed this view and accused the EU of conspiring with rival AMD.
And I accuse the US government of doing basically nothing to protect its baby. Proof is proof, and if the EU can come up with proof to the laid charges, Intel should be held 100% responsible and should stop whining. If they cannot come up with proof, then nothing should come of this and Intel should have nothing to worry about. A low blow on Intel's part that's for sure... very disappointing. Remarks like this only make me think Intel has done something wrong.




Too outrageous ?
By Silver2k7 on 7/18/2008 1:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
Im guessing Intel thought it was too outrageous to believe, they where the bigger manufacturer and didn't really need such tactics, so why would anyone believe that they would do such a thing..

"Only the small secrets need to be protected.
The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity."
- Marshall McLuhan, media 'guru'




LOL - boxing kittens...
By Enoch2001 on 7/18/2008 1:53:21 PM , Rating: 2
That's the best picture ever. Made me laugh out loud.




Gr8 Thumbnail
By swizeus on 7/18/2008 2:10:25 PM , Rating: 2
aside from the great story, the thumbnail is hillariously cute :)




Better for the Common Man
By bribud on 7/18/2008 3:10:33 PM , Rating: 2
I have bought both AMD and Intel parts in my computers, and the last few have been Intel of course. So I am no fanboy of any kind, I just want great performance for a good price. The way I see it, I hope they do get slapped on the hand no-matter if they are actually guilty or not. They have too much market share and anything that can be done to help AMD out at this point, I am all for. Stuff like this keeps the balance of power between companies. It may seem selfish for me to say that I don't care if they are guilty or not, but I don't care. These corporations make enough money and I support trying to make companies more competitive against each other, end of story. Whatever makes it cheaper to get into consumers hands, I am all for. Right now, AMD needs the help, so I want Intel to have to tread a little bit of water for a change. We need balance people... trust me Intel will be completely fine no matter what happens against them.




Socialism
By EvanaTm on 7/18/2008 5:24:08 PM , Rating: 2
Also, I don't want to see any responses that justify fines if you assume they aren't guilty.

If you want to re-balance power/cash based on success then I should get a fat check from the dr. or lawyer down the street. Of course, their extra schooling and hard work doesn't mean they should be where they are. I think it is unfair that they are more successful than me, and therefore should be entitled to their money, right?

If you are going to say they should be fined, regardless of guilt, then go ahead and send me some money with the knowledge that you definitely make more $ than me.




EC
By atkoj on 7/18/2008 6:58:30 PM , Rating: 2
"Now the European Commission (EC), the EU's business monitoring unit..."

The European Commission is Europe's executive / administration / government, not it's business monitoring unit! That is technically one of the minor functions of one of its offices, admittedly.




Reading through the replies here...
By jpeyton on 7/18/2008 11:11:05 PM , Rating: 2
...it's clear that fanboys on a computer hardware weblog know little about anti-trust law.

Intel's violations are clear on every continent except North America, where the US DOJ wants to protect their baby from any more bad press.




European unlawful violence
By jarndyce on 7/19/08, Rating: 0
Let's penalize the successful
By japlha on 7/18/08, Rating: -1
RE: Let's penalize the successful
By Screwballl on 7/18/2008 12:35:24 PM , Rating: 2
That is the problem right there... they used illegal and underhanded tactics and actions to make sure the competition could not get more sales.
A company is only as successful as their legal and legitimate actions lead them to be. Intel f**ked up and now they will pay the price, I just hope they get nailed here in the US as well.

It is one thing for a company to get a monopoly legitimately, it is another when it is done illegitimately and at the cost of shutting out a competitor with a viable and in some cases better product (like AMD had during the AthlonXP/Athlon64 days).


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By TomZ on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Let's penalize the successful
By ZootyGray on 7/18/2008 1:44:13 PM , Rating: 3
You don't get it either.

The dirt tactics of ntel were happening WHILE AMD WAS ON TOP. That was the ntel response to AMD's successful creativity.

If you support this - wow - you create a 'screw-the-consumer' world - and you cosign a lot of abuse.

I have seen store shelves full of ntel and one little AMD unit that was better price/superior performance than all of them - and that was circa 2005-06. (besbuy/futurshopp)

Support that and you create a sick world. Now that you have been told.... check the evidence. Fines have been applied globally, and the usa is dragging it's butt - that's a whole other story. EU, Korea, Japan have already made the move.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By eye smite on 7/18/2008 5:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
No, he doesn't get it either. Obviously for someone that reads a tech site, he doesn't remember the stories coming out and the allegations 3 yrs ago that intel was doing the very thing they're charged with. That or I guess the P4 really was superior to the Athlon64 and AthlonX2 that followed(puuuuke). Everyone will believe what they want though. It's a shame people won't research back to the 1960s and see how underhanded and dirty a player Intel was as an IC chipmaker for missiles in the U.S. inventory. It's just like the bigfoot phenomena, people will believe what they want.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By TomZ on 7/18/2008 5:17:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The dirt tactics of ntel were happening WHILE AMD WAS ON TOP. That was the ntel response to AMD's successful creativity.

The timing of when Intel did the alleged things is irrelevant to my argument. My point is that AMD is its own worst enemy, and that it's current performance is direct result of having a bad strategy and bad execution. You didn't counter my argument at all.

And with Ruiz leaving the top post, it seems like some in AMD's leadership probably agree with me, no?

AMD fanboys, please feel free to continue to rate me down. The more you rate me down, the more powerful I become! Ha ha ha....


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By ZmaxDP on 7/18/2008 6:42:32 PM , Rating: 3
TomZ,

Believing that AMD was in some way held back by Intel's dealings with companies that potentially could have sold both company's products has nothing to do with being a "fanboy."

You are arguing that Intel's dealings don't matter because AMD screwed up all on its own. While I agree that some of the strategy decisions made by AMD may not have been the best, the reality is far more complicated than a black/white analysis. AMD's current financial difficulties are a result of a whole lot of factors, your desire to blame those difficulties solely on AMD's own actions is just simplistic at best.

Aside from AMD's questionable decision in purchasing ATI, there is a question about AMD's internal distribution of funds when it was "on top" performance wise and having a decent market share gain. You allege that they neglected to put enough money into R&D. However, at the time no one (including you) thought Intel would be able to pull off the kind of miraculous performance jump that the Core microarchitecture delivered. Based on this flawed assumption that 99% of the tech community shared, AMD choose to invest heavily in manufacturing facilities because their largest problem early on was meeting demand. They sunk a majority of their profits into these facilities and did not (in hindsight) invest enough in R&D. I think this is your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) about R&D investments.

What you have to ask is could AMD have gotten more market share then they got IF Intel had acted differently. If the answer is no, then you're probably right in your assertion. If the answer is yes (and I think it is) then you have to dig a little deeper...

Let's presume (humor me) that Intel did what it is accused of and that companies like Dell and HP delayed picking up AMD processors until just about the time that Core launched because Intel was basically paying them not to (either through reduced prices or direct bribes, doesn't really matter...). How many thousands of units would AMD have sold that it lost out on? Based on the volume of just those two companies alone and the undisputed out performance of Intel's pentium 4 processors we're talking about hundreds of thousands of units. Now, AMD did have supply issues from time to time, and there is no doubt that either Dell or HP would have stretched AMD's supply dfar beyond it's capacity. But, with those kind of sales AMD could easily and relatively inexpensively had TSMC or some other foundries manufacture chips to supplement their capacity. They didn't really want to do that, and made the investments in fabs they did to avoid this very thing, but that decision was based on a rather manageable market share growth rate. Building these fabs takes time and capital which they would quickly exhausted on those fab facilities. There is simply no way they could have kept up with the kind of numbers Dell and HP could have pushed when AMD's architecture was so far ahead of Intel's. So, I would have little problem betting they would have made a different decision regarding third-party manufacturing given a higher growth rate. So, now the question is what they would have done with all that revenue? Build more fabs? No doubt. Even given their same distribution of resources, much more money would have gone to R&D with the increased revenue. How much? There's no way to know obviously. Would they have gained another 5% of market share? 10%? 20%? Who knows. What percentage would have gotten enough money into R&D to get barcelona out in time, or to get some of the types of improvements we saw in core or core2 into barcelona from the beginning, once again we can't know. The point is that, if yes, Intel's actions prevented us from finding this out.

Even then, it is irrelevant if Intel actually managed to hold AMD back at all, or even if AMD shot itself in the foot or not. You can get charged with attempted murder, attempted robbery, attempted rape, and I fail to see why you have to prove that economic damage happened to AMD to justify fining Intel for their actions. Intel's actions had the potential to hold AMD back, and I think that is pretty freaking obvious. So, regardless of the effectiveness of their strategy, they need to get fined just to discourage them or anyone else from employing the same tactics again. It is bad for competition, and bad for consumers.

Heck, I own stock in Intel and I still think they should get fined, so don't give me any "fanboy" crap. The only thing I'm a "fanboy" of is performance per dollar. I've got Intel processors in all my computers, and I am one of the people who recommend IT purchases in the company I work at, and it's no coincidence that all our computers run Intel processors. But, four and a half years ago when we made our previous computer purchases we wanted to buy AMD processors but Dell didn't offer them. After much debate we decided to stick with Dell anyway because of the discounts and support we had been so happy with at the time. So, I can count at least 600 additional units that would have helped AMD either invest more in R&D or simply line their pockets better to help them get through a tough time right now.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By Grast on 7/18/2008 7:15:11 PM , Rating: 1
Quick Summ,

AMD has been and still is MANUFACTURE LIMITED. Are you too baised to see that maybe DELL, HP, COMPAQ, and ACER choose to be exclusive Intel customers for the following reasons.

1. AMD unable to meet supply requirements
2. Intel meeting supply requests.
3. Intel offering price rebates for exclusive brand.
4. Intel having better brand recognision and marketing.

Dell and HP have very good sound business reasons to choose Intel. There brand is established and trusted which translates to more sales. Intel is giving rebates for exclusive contracts. If you have ever been in a Walmart, Sears, Supermarket, Best Buy, Circuit City, Costco, Sam's Club, etc... look at every end cap, display, and area around the register. Those are examples of companies PAYING the retailer to place and advertise their product above other products. This is not abuse or a bribe.

Welcome to capitolism.

I am NOT saying Intel did not commit any questionable and unethical business practices. These types of issue occur with every business.

I am saying the Intel has in the past, present, and future always produce a highly marketable product.

IMHO


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By afkrotch on 7/18/2008 6:39:28 PM , Rating: 1
I really don't see much in the way of dirty tactics.

You only buy from us, we give you X discount.
You buy A amount from us, we give you B discount.

Seems like standard business practice to me. Happens all over the world with all sorts of products.

quote:
I have seen store shelves full of ntel and one little AMD unit that was better price/superior performance than all of them - and that was circa 2005-06. (besbuy/futurshopp)


Not sure what this is suppose to mean. Maybe all the AMD products were sold out. Maybe the store manager decided that AMD doesn't sell well and decided to only stock a small ass amount. It's not like Intel went in there and said "WTF! You have too much AMD on your shelves. Take them down or we won't give you a discount."

Bestbuy isn't exactly a Pro Intel shop. Nor is it a Pro AMD shop. They just sell whatever they decide to put their hands on. Our local Bestbuy in my hometown carries a lot of AMD HPs.

Go to their website and you'll see a lot of AMD boxes and Intel boxes, even though Intel is currently on top. Dear god!!! Let's sue AMD, they must be using underhanded tactics to get their products into Bestbuy.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By ZmaxDP on 7/18/2008 7:01:47 PM , Rating: 3
Looking at your two examples, there is nothing wrong with #2. Giving volume discounts is a common practice, and no one is claiming this is anti-competitive. There is even a dis-incentive built into this as buying from another manufacturer will decrease the volume and thus decrease the total discount. But, the decrease is clearly defined, and you still get some discount based on the volume, and if another product will sell then there is a clear incentive to reduce the volume in one product and start selling another.

#1 on the other hand is a problem because of its inverse. Buy from someone other than us and your discount gets taken away. This is fundamentally no different than a bribe. This practice is not considered legal, nor should it be.

As for seeing AMD computers in stores now...

Of course you see a decent mix now, once it fell under investigation Intel stopped doing what it had been doing. (Is there any better sign of guilt?). There mere fact that AMD computers are present even though they are behind right now should give you some idea what it took to keep them out of stores when they were ahead.

Then again, Intel wasn't worried about retail stores like you're talking about. They focused on computer manufacturers like Dell and HP because if they didn't make computers with AMD processors, stores couldn't carry them. The amazing thing to me was how much market share AMD gained despite the largest market players not building computers with AMD processors. This is why their strategy was so effective. They had (and have) a monopoly on processors, and if you look at the OEMs who mysteriously had AMD based computers missing in action during this time period they also had a decent monopoly over the OEMs.

Remove the artificial restriction on the market that Intel imposed, and who knows how much market share AMD would have gained. That would equal more capital, more R&D, and may have resulted in a much different story today.

Fortunately for me, I retained my Intel stocks and sold my AMD stock very close to its high. So, I made out pretty well from the whole situation. Doesn't make it right, good, or even ideal in my book. I'd much rather see a stronger AMD today to help keep Intel "honest" in terms of improving performance. Recent numbers from Intel's new processor are out, and they are a little disappointing in my opinion. I can promise you one thing, with a stronger AMD Intel would have come out with a stronger processor this generation. They didn't have to because of where AMD is today...


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By afkrotch on 7/19/2008 9:01:58 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
#1 on the other hand is a problem because of its inverse. Buy from someone other than us and your discount gets taken away. This is fundamentally no different than a bribe. This practice is not considered legal, nor should it be.


I don't see a problem with this. There's 1 discount from buying only from them and there's another discount for buying bulk from them.

Lose out on one, but still keep the other. Would this be anti-competitive? I don't see why. AMD can do the same thing. If they don't, that's their own prerogative.


By The Irish Patient on 7/21/2008 12:03:04 PM , Rating: 1
Tom,

You're completely right on this issue. The AMD apologists like to forget that AMD offered a bribe of one million free CPUs to HP at the same time that Intel was offering its rebates for exclusivity. AMD's bribe was a counter-offer against the bribe of $25 million per quarter that HP was demanding from AMD. AMD admitted all of this in their complaint against Intel. See paragraph 48 on pages 18-19.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/Downl...

AMD's problem was that its bribe of one million free CPUs still wasn't good enough for HP for exactly the reasons you've detailed, primarily poor brand recognition.

I like the way most of the posters are screaming for Intel's blood, but are perfectly willing to excuse AMD's offer of a much worse bribe, or HP's demand for $25 million per quarter. I say much worse, because AMD's offer to provide CPUs for absolutely nothing is a clear violation of U.S. anti-trust law, unlike Intel's behavior.

None of these companies are angels. At the end of the day, AMD's difficulties have always been due to its failure to establish itself as a household name. Intel's behavior is no better or worse than AMD's or HP's. Intel has simply been more successful. The EU should impose punitive fines on all of them or none of them. So you're completely right, these EU fines are about penalizing the successful, not deterring bad conduct.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By Nik00117 on 7/18/2008 2:18:50 PM , Rating: 1
The EU is known for being a bunch of anti-captialist panies. I live in a EU country and they make it difficult to make a business. The idea of doing it on your own is difficult and those who do get by but just barely.

The EU is using its anti-trust funs to feed the familys of their top lawyers, and exces. Tell the EU to fuck off and get off their high horse. I can't wait until the day I have a company that product is essentially a commiditony and the EU tries to fine me, i'd tell them to fuck off. Quite litterally.


By King of Heroes on 7/21/2008 1:28:11 PM , Rating: 1
And I can't wait until the day you actually try this, followed by your shareholders revolting and tossing your brain damaged ass out the front door. Any company owner stupid enough to give the finger to one of the biggest markets on Earth doesn't deserve to own, much less RUN, a company of any kind.

If Intel broke the law, they need to be fined. I have no problems with the E.U. raking them over the coals if they did, lord knows the U.S. doesn't seem to give a fuck. Alot of the bitching going on in this thread seems to be mostly "How DARE a foreign nation accuse an AMERICAN company of wrong doing?! The bastards!". I.E., lots of butt hurt egos. (And before someone throws out this accusation, I live in America. Born and raised).

The ONLY issue I have with this is what was brought up about the E.U. charging a percentage of worldwide revenue rather than just European revenue. That does smack of them reaching into places they have no business reaching into.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By PKmjolnir on 7/18/2008 12:38:14 PM , Rating: 3
You don't really get this do you?

Intel is funnelling big monies to supress and hurt AMD, it's not just that intel produce superior chipsets, they invest in destroying the competition so they can dominate the market with inferior products.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By TomZ on 7/18/2008 12:44:22 PM , Rating: 1
I'm afraid you don't get it. Intel is dominating AMD right now because they have superior products, not inferior products, in every category where they go head-to-head. If you don't recognize this, then you are in denial.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By kelmon on 7/18/2008 12:56:46 PM , Rating: 3
That's kinda the shame in all this. Intel were clearly "out to lunch" for a while and I can therefore understand (although not condone) their alleged actions, but they've definitely got back in the game over the last few years and they really didn't need to use these tactics. When you already have a well-known and respected brand, if you are banging out good products then they'll sell well. In the end Intel may be fined for doing something that they didn't need to do in the first place. Perhaps they should have had more confidence in their own abilities.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By StupidMonkey on 7/18/2008 1:52:45 PM , Rating: 5
Tom, I'm afraid YOU dont get it. This is not a current investigation, this is an investigation relating to the P4/Athlon era. This has NOTHING to do with the current Core/2/Quad processors. This has EVERYTHING to do with the stuff that Intel had out before.

When AMD had superior products, Intel said to computer makers 'use our stuff or get it late/for more money/you don't get rebates like the people who are'. This is called using the competitive advantage unfairly.

Company A sells the wheel. The wheel is shaped like a square, is slow and inefficient. They came out with said wheel first. They sold ALOT of said wheel and have alot of money.

Company B sells the wheel. The wheel is round in shape, its fast and efficient. They came out with said wheel 2nd. They are starting to sell said wheel.

Company A tells vendor A, B, and C that if they sell company B's wheel, they will not get their wheel on a discount. They also say that there may be 'inventory issues' that will make them out of stock. Vendor A buy's Company A's wheel even though its an inferior product, but make more due to the discounts Company A gives them.

This is illegal. Its using market position to bully out the competition. This is what Intel did BEFORE Core 2. This has everything to do with Netburst, NOT Core 2.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By Ringold on 7/19/2008 3:07:23 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not going to speak for TomZ, but I think he's being misunderstood. I don't see him passing legal judgment on Intel's action, he is merely pointing out that regardless of what Intel did that the current situation today would still prevail due to poor leadership; that situation being that only fanboy's would really buy an AMD CPU today. We can't blame inadequate cash flow, as due the wonders of modern finance companies can run in the red for many years while still investing in itself.

You, and most the people responding to him, keep falling back on the legality. Yeah, whatever, thats valid. He's just looking at the 'facts on the ground', and those are that AMD would've still had its ass handed to it from the day Core 2 Duo's were released. A best case scenario might've simply been that AMD would've fallen to current market share levels from a previously higher level, though even their maximum market share would've been limited by their production capacity.

As soon as the legal issues are resolved and Intel is fine, then you get to pat yourself on the back for fighting the good fight. Unfortunately, TomZ would still be correct, as the fact that Intel's products trump AMD's would remain unchanged. The real-world impact of the legal proceedings, then, would be somewhere close to zero.

The fact that the product situation can't be changed is why I've said before I'd rather see individuals within Intel be charged with offenses rather than the company itself. That punishes the entire firm, and indirectly the market, for what management knew was illegal market activities, assuming the alleged offenses are true. I somehow think seeing a corporate executive doing the perp walk out of his office building has a larger impact on corporate culture than passing the memo to the accounting department that some fines will have to be paid.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By afkrotch on 7/19/2008 9:22:46 AM , Rating: 2
I wouldn't even say have of what you said is correct. It's more like..

Company A and B have wheels that are round. Company A's wheel works well in the dirt. Company B's wheels work well on the road. Both A and B's wheels work well on grass.

The rest of it was all speculation/allegations. If it weren't, Intel would have lost a long time ago. They'll probably keep searching for evidence and Intel will win.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By rudolphna on 7/18/2008 9:39:47 PM , Rating: 2
they WILL have inferior products if there is no more AMD to provide a modicum of competition to Intel. hell, i bet if AMD went down the toilet, how long would it take for intel to slack off and produce another netburst-like disiaster? And then where are we? We would have no choice but to use them. A market without competition is not a healthy one.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By japlha on 7/18/2008 2:45:27 PM , Rating: 1
If Intel breaks the law then yes there should be consequences for it. Lesser companies always whine about "anti-competitive monopolies" to try to catch up to the industry leaders. They get some politician on their payroll and lobby for these "laws" to be passed.

The fact is I see a pattern with the EU. Once they're done with Intel who's next? Where is the money going that Intel is being fined? Is it going to Intel's competitors?

I don't see a problem with Intel not giving discounts or not selling to others who also sell a competitors products. Doesn't a company have the right to sell or deny the sale of a product or service to another company?


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By caqde on 7/18/2008 3:27:20 PM , Rating: 2
When it comes to being a bully about it no I don't think so. This is mob mentality we are talking about here. They were threatening a company that sells their products by telling them they would not give them their chips if they sold AMD chips.

Now to put this into perspective say that you are Giga-byte and about 80% or more of your motherboards sales are from Intel, but you would like to be able to increase your sales by selling boards for this new product from AMD. Does it seem fair for Intel at this point to be doing this?


By rgsaunders on 7/18/2008 6:24:59 PM , Rating: 2
If you do a little research you will find that your hypothetical example has a real world historical existence, Asus developed a new mobo for the AMD cpu however, it couldn't be found on their site unless you had a direct link because Intel pressured them not to advertise it. If I recall correctly, this was a Socket A board although I could be wrong on the version.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By deadrats on 7/18/2008 4:50:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Penalizing a successful company makes no sense to me.
If a company has a monopoly it's because they are giving what people want. Nobody is stopping another company to do something better than Intel. If Intel had a monopoly and started charging whatever they wanted for their products it's a perfect time for another company to come along and produce what the public wants at a price they want.
Should Intel make bad products so those lesser companies (less skill, less talent, less ingeniuty) can catch up?.


intel (and microsoft) is not being penalized for being a successful company, it's being penalized because of the way they achieve their success. if a company, any company, gains 80, 90 percent of the market share because the product they produce is so much better than anyone elses, so much more compelling that most consumers can't imagine using anything else, well i'm all for it, it wish them all the success in the world.

if however, a company uses back room deals to sabotage their competitors and then gains 80, 90 percent of the market share, well then that's just not right.

intel is alleged to have strong armed, bribed and coerced pc makers into using intel chips either exclusively (as was the case with dell for years) effectively preventing amd from getting their cpu's into large markets.

it's like having a neighborhood market and the big name market down the road blocks the street so that customers can't come shop at your store, or they bribe the milk delivery guy to stall the delivery of your dairy products so that by the time you get them they are spoiled.

intel is accused of actually bribing a pc manufacturer to delay the release of systems with amd cpu's until intel could provide the manufacturer with enough chips so that the manufacturer could sell intel powered systems more prominently, that's just not right.

if you don't believe the allegations just consider this: amd had the first 64bit consumer cpu (the first 64 bit cpu's were alphas, but that chips wasn't a mainstream consumer cpu, just for high end servers) by a stretch, intel's 64bit offering wasn't even on the horizon and what did microsoft do? they delayed the release of XP64 by a year (i think it may have been 18 months) until intel was ready with their own 64bit chip. but it's worse than that, amd's chips when using a 64bit OS fly, i've been using XP64 and 64bit linux for a while now and intel's chips under 64bit weren't anywhere near as fast and even with conroe they never really caught up. so what does microsoft do? they again delay moving to a fully 64bit OS by releasing vista as both 32bit and 64bit, even through 64bit vista is a different beast from 32bit vista (try 64bit vista basic with all the background crap turned off on fully supported hardware and get ready to be suprised, especially on amd chips that support NUMA). or better yet, take a quad core phenom, a quad core penryn, slap a 64bit distro on it, custom compile the kernel and then come tell me which chip is faster the amd or the intel (yes, i have both, have done it and the phenoms are faster).

now don't get me wrong i'm not saying intel's products are crap and i am eagerly awaiting to see what larrabee and nehelam (the low cost $280 2.6ghz model) bring to the table but that both intel and microsoft have engaged in some pretty underhanded tactis? there is no question about it.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By RedStar on 7/18/2008 5:08:42 PM , Rating: 1
AMD's problems lay more in the fact that they could not meet demand for their athalon. Whatever they had available did get snapped up.

I have used AMD for years.

AMD started by reverse engineering intel's cpu architecture.

I went intel when the core 2 duo showed up.

I have no sympathy for amd ... nor much for any country that allows "reverse engineering" for that matter.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By deadrats on 7/18/2008 6:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
AMD started by reverse engineering intel's cpu architecture.


any "reverse engineering" AMD has done is with Intel's blessing, the two companies have had a cross licensing agreement for years, any technology Intel invents AMD can use and visa versa, that's why Intel never sued AMD for selling chips that could be swapped in place of Intel chips back when both companies where using the same socket.


RE: Let's penalize the successful
By ICE1966 on 7/24/2008 10:53:41 PM , Rating: 2
This true.

If Eu proves that Intel did this kind of illegal market manipulation, then fine thier arse. Amd has brought alot of new innovations to the market, and so has Intel, but to say that AMD builds an inferior cpu brings to mind the word "moron". If you believe that then your a moron. AMD cpu's are great cpu's, plain and simple.


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