backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 214 comment(s) - last by ceefka.. on Jan 28 at 4:59 PM


IE marketshare is currently at its lowest point, falling into the 60s after being at nearly 90 percent in 2004. Still, the EU has chosen now as a good time to target Microsoft with more antitrust charges, focusing on IE, and perhaps hoping for a big new set of fines.  (Source: Net Applications via CNET)
A new year, new charges from the EU against Microsoft

Just weeks after the New Year's celebrations ended, the European Union's European Commission has issued a fresh round of accusations against Microsoft.  Likely inspired by past successes which saw the EU reaping $1.4B USD (899M €) in its latest fine against Microsoft, the pair is getting ready to wage battle in the European Union's courts yet again.

The EU released a statement Friday stating, "Microsoft's tying of Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system harms competition between web browsers, undermines product innovation and ultimately reduces consumer choice."

Microsoft is currently reviewing the statement and deciding whether to fight the charges by requesting a formal hearing.  It has been given an eight week deadline to reply to the charges.  In the past Microsoft has had little success fighting the EU, with its appeals against fines consistently failing

While Microsoft has diversified substantially, with revenue from internet business, the Xbox 360 gaming console, the Zune MP3 player, and more, the company's biggest business remains its operating systems.  While Microsoft has tried to move away from bundling its software with the OS's to avoid being charged with anticompetitive practices, it has failed to do so with its Internet Explorer software.

It’s hard to argue the effectiveness of Microsoft's strategy.  Internet Explorer maintains a relatively large lead over second place competitor Firefox, with a 59.5 percent market share in Europe compared to Firefox's 31.1 percent.  While part of this is due to Microsoft's advantages over Firefox in a large business environment, much of it is simply due to the fact that the software comes with every Windows install.  This practice, says the EU, while effective, is anticompetitive.

The last fine against Microsoft came in February 2008.  The fine and future fines to come from the European Commission saying Microsoft willfully ignored a 2004 ruling, which ordered it to cease certain anticompetitive practices.  As the result of these violations, Microsoft is under extended oversight, and now looks to be headed for even more fines.

The most recent charges were spurred by a complaint from Norway's Opera browser company.  Some analysts are noting that the timing of the latest charges is rather odd, as Internet Explorer is at its lowest market share in several years.  Further, while the U.S. focused on IE in antitrust charges in the late 90s, the EU has for several years declined to focus on it, instead targeting Microsoft's bundling practices in general.

While Microsoft may be a bit morose over the fact that more antitrust charges have been dropped on it, it can take comfort in that at least it is not alone.  The European Commission, which practices a stricter brand of antitrust law than the U.S., has targeted Intel and even Apple with separate charges or accusations.  However, those charges fall short of those leveled at Microsoft, which has proved the EU's favorite source of antitrust fine revenue over the years, being forced to pay over $2.4B USD in fines.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

then they had better fine apple as well
By kattanna on 1/19/2009 10:45:57 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
due to the fact that the software comes with every Windows install. This practice, says the EU, while effective, is anticompetitive.


if the very practice of including a web browser with the OS install is "anti-competitive" then they had better fine apple as well because by default without any choice it installs safari.

it honestly amazes me that OS makers get the shaft by bettering their product for their customers. In any other industry when the company adds value to their product, it is hailed as a good thing. but when an OS company adds value by including additional software that their users want and use, its hailed as "anti-competetive"




RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Scott66 on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 11:00:55 AM , Rating: 5
Yes they do.

You can install any browser you want in Windows, and you don't need IE to do updates.

This is especially false in Vista, where the update tool isn't even browser-based.

What are you talking about?


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Calin on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 11:12:47 AM , Rating: 5
If people create software that automatically resorts to IE and ignores the OS's default browser setting, that's their choice.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By quiksilvr on 1/19/2009 12:00:27 PM , Rating: 4
Besides, its a good thing IE is there by default. Suppose you reformat your computer and you don't have the Firefox or Chrome exe files? You use IE to install those files and then never use IE ever again. That is the only good use I found with IE.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By B3an on 1/19/2009 10:38:00 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah i was thinking that... if IE isn't included in Windows in the first place, then how can you even download other browsers??

And i also agree they should go after Apple if they're doing this to MS.


By JoeBanana on 1/20/2009 12:52:39 PM , Rating: 3
Your point is invalid. Windows users are used to install everything from browser download exe & install. But if you look at other operating systems like linux with, for example synaptics, you will see that it installs any application you desire without opening a browser... files, strings... are being received and transmited through the network by almost every network oriented program today.

And the implementation. When you first login into windows program designed for this asks you which browser you choose(of course IE will be chosen by default :P)... and then downloads & installs a browser. Browser installation could be two clicks & 60s away. And EU would have no choice but to stfu :)


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Spivonious on 1/19/2009 11:14:32 AM , Rating: 5
And that is Microsoft's fault?


By 16nm on 1/22/2009 11:39:12 PM , Rating: 2

I think I have the solution for Microsoft. They need to release two separately developed versions of Windows. One will be the Windows Anti-trust version which will be full of tons of senseless modifications designed to meet the needs of the EU and the other will be the good one where Microsoft is free to innovate as it sees fit. Let the consumer decide which version they want to spend their money on and that will be the end of it.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By EidolWays on 1/19/2009 11:17:12 AM , Rating: 5
The other reply to this hits on this as well. The Windows "default browser" choice is respected so long as the command to open the browser is passed to the OS itself. If a program calls IE directly and passes the URL to it, then it will always open the URL in IE. But that's not the OS's fault, and that's not MS tying IE into the OS in an inextricable way.

I'm frankly tired of people telling MS how to structure its product. Seriously, people, let MS structure their OS to keep out all competitors! Let them turn it into an unstable, closed-box solution that will become increasingly unstable as their monopoly advantage makes them lazy!

The ONLY way a monopoly can truly hold in a market economy is if the government hands over favors to the monopolist. If MS were to sue younger competitors and the government were to rule in favor of MS, THEN MS might be able to hold their monopoly position.

But using government to tell them how to release their own product so that they're not competing too hard? Give me a break!


By Oregonian2 on 1/19/2009 4:53:54 PM , Rating: 3
Next I think Microsoft will be "hit" because they have their own Kernel exclusively used in their OS producsts and therefore are anti-competitive.


By TSS on 1/19/2009 10:08:12 PM , Rating: 2
plenty? the last 5 years i've been using firefox (or mozilla) i've seen only 1: MSN/Windows Live messenger. big suprise there. everything else obey's the default browser setting perfectly.

my default beeing firefox which i always download with IE after a fresh install.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By PrinceGaz on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
By Gzus666 on 1/19/2009 4:26:29 PM , Rating: 5
No you don't, set your automatic updates to prompt but not install or prompt but don't download or install. When it asks you check the custom install rather than basic and you can review everything that is being update and chose to stop any updates you wish.


By mircea on 1/20/2009 2:24:37 PM , Rating: 1
Are you complaninig about your Win95/98/Me/2000 updates? Have you used a system built after 2000? Like for example a prior to 2004 rulling system named WindowsXP in which Gzus666 explained how you can have freedom, or the newer Vista, which even if you launch from IE the update, it opens a completely diferent window?
Just because you don't like Windows doesen't mean they want your harm, especially with the auto updates.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 11:03:10 AM , Rating: 5
The logic that the EU applies is stupid.

1. There is no barrier to installing any other browsers in Windows

2. There is no money to be made in the browser market - and therefore no significant financial losses on the part of the competing browser companies

3. The benefit to having IE pre-installed far outweighs the user inconvenience in not having it, even if the user only uses it once in order to download an alternate browser

4. There is a benefit to software developers in having a platform HTML rendering component available on all Windows machines

5. What about other OS components - what if I decide to sell or give away an alternate "file explorer" utility - does that make it illegal for Microsoft to have their own integrated - where does it end?


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Calin on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 11:13:49 AM , Rating: 3
Obviously I understand that - did you read my point #4?

Many third-party applications - not just Microsoft apps - rely on IE components. It is a very convenient source of a lot of reusable functionality. Knowing it is available on most all Windows machines means not having to bloat your setup with all that functionality.

At the end of the day, not having IE delivered by the Windows Setup would yield the same effect as you have now. You you have apps that install most or all of the IE functionality as setup prerequisites.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Calin on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:18:39 PM , Rating: 4
IE is a de-facto standard. In industry, de-facto standards are often just as important as paper standards. Think about it...why do web developers always test their sites in IE first?

Yes, in an ideal world, each browser implementation would be 100% compilant with a paper standard, and yes, Microsoft should work harder to be compliant (and they are), but on the other hand, you have to understand and accept the reality of the situation which is that "IE is the standard."


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Jucken on 1/19/2009 3:34:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
IE is a de-facto standard. In industry, de-facto standards are often just as important as paper standards. Think about it...why do web developers always test their sites in IE first?

With this comment you have pretty much admitted that Microsoft has a monopoly and an unfair advantage over their competitors, which lets them leverage their operating system.

As IE can only be run on Windows, Microsoft has effectivelly limited their customers's freedom of choice with their bad standards support. You simply can't run any other operating system and expect to be able to view all, maybe not even most, of the content of the Internet. You will eventually face a website which requires IE to work, and then you're stuck: you have to buy Windows and use Internet Explorer.

I am a web developer, and IE has made my life much more miserable than it should be. Its CSS support is crippled at best, and its Javascript implementation is rather buggy. Every time I come up with a new website, I try to be fully standards-compliant, and everything I create passes W3C's validation. But then I find out that it works fine on every major browser out there (Safari, Firefox, Opera, Konqueror, etc), except IE. Hence I am forced to find out what part of my standards-compliant website is not supported by IE and to fix it, otherwise as much as 60% of the Internet will not be able to view my website properly!

Yes, you are right, we web developers have to always test our sites in IE. But you forgot to mention that IE isn't free, you have to buy Windows in order to run it. Microsoft is forcing us all to buy Windows. This may even be legal, but this is disrespectful towards the customer.

I don't think the EU is right on fining Microsoft for bundling a web browser with their OS. That is pretty much standard, and every OS I know comes with a web browser bundled. They should rather be fining Microsoft for bundling a non-standards-compliant web browser with their OS.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By JKflipflop98 on 1/19/2009 4:20:57 PM , Rating: 1
Provide examples or you fail.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Jucken on 1/19/2009 7:28:41 PM , Rating: 3
OK, there you go: IE's implementation of the "getElementById()" method is broken. Its "getElementById()" implementation does not know the difference between an element's name and its id.

You are unable to handle tables and table rows with the "appendChild()", "cloneNode()" and "removeChild()" methods with IE. You must wrap your table within a div (or construct an artificial table using divs) and you'll end up running into a series of inconsistencies between IE and standards-compliant browsers.

IE does not support CSS transparencies, forms inherit margin properties when they should not, it handles floats oddly when using CSS positioning (rather than tables), the CSS property "border: dashed" doesn't work properly in IE6, I could go on...


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By HollyDOL on 1/20/2009 2:44:42 AM , Rating: 1
Yes, and IE1.0 doesn't support flash content. Man, wake up, IE6 is long gone, IE7 runs most IE-running machines and some already run IE8. Nobody will ever update 2 versions back.

I'd just add that using HTML elements for different functionality than they are intended to is just royal crown of idiocy. If I want to write a paragraph, I'll use "P" tag. If I want to create a table, I'll use "TABLE". If I need to write down text without indent, I use a "DIV". Creating tables using DIV and ton of css to work around something that was never intended is just stupid even though considered by many as the only right way. And yes, I think abandoning of "FRAME" is just as bad. If for nothing else than traffic reduction.

You don't take your BMW to plow the field as well as you don't take garden tractor to break speed records. Same thing.

Honestly, every web site that gets broken if you remove the 'css' is imo glorious display of badly coded site. Well coded site will lose facade but the functionality remains.

As to why browsers break standards is beyond my understanding and I consider it just stupid. But whine only about IE is just as shortsighted. Every browser breaks it. Some more, some less, but all do.


By Jucken on 1/20/2009 9:40:26 AM , Rating: 2
I think I wasn't clear enough. Perhaps because of my less-than-perfect English.

Most of the bugs I mentioned are present in IE7 as well. I have specifically mentioned when the bug is IE6-specific.

Besides, IE6 is still running on at least 20% of the machines on the Internet, according to these statistics:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=...

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

Aditionally, I am not a "royal crown idiot" - I know what the hell I am doing. I use "table" when I want to create tables. But handling tables using the aforementioned Javascript methods will not work in IE7 (or IE6). Therefore, I am forced to create an artificial table using divs and lots of CSS in order to be able to handle the rows and columns of my pseudo-table using Javascript. I know this is not right, but sometimes it is the only way to make it work in IE.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By achintya on 1/20/2009 2:24:54 PM , Rating: 2
Let me clear up a few things here.
For starters, there is NO such browser which is 100% standards compliant. Every browser has its own quirks and bugs. Everybody has their own interpretations of the standards. If there were not then why would people bother testing stuff in many browsers?
As for the tables comment, if you bother to check, the W3C standard says that the structure of a table should be in the following format:

-table
--thead
--tbody
---tr
----td
--/tbody
--tfoot
-/table

Try coding a tbody and you shall get the table.

Transparency is not part of any standard. I believe the upcoming CSS3 standard adds support for it. Till then, its simply a vendor based implementation. And BTW IE does support transparencies using the Opacity filter.(Try getting any other effects as can be obtained by the IE Filter)

If you must know, each and every browser has their own advantages and their own features. For example, your Asynchronous Request(ie AJAX) was originally created by MS which was then copied by other vendors and finally included into the standard by the W3C. A lot of other features and functionality has been added to the internet by MS which eventually ended to stagnation. Lately Mozilla has voraciously started development in this field which has allowed "Web 2.0" to come up as we see it today.

As for the other quirks, remember that CSS and JavaScript has recently come to the fore of web development. Otherwise it was basically static HTML which ruled the roost for which IE has a very good support of. As and when the IE team is realizing that it is becoming more and more important to include better support for these, newer versions of the browser are being released.

Going back to the main argument, if you realize, there are replacements for EVERY aspect and software of Windows except for the Kernel. Why doesn't the EU accuse MS of including all the other pieces of software? Doesn't that constitute as a charge of "trying to stifle the competition"?
If I am paying good money for an OS, I would certainly want as many features as possible out of the box. If I do not like some of the features then I can simply go ahead and buy competing softwares and install them. If I am getting an acceptable Media Center experience using WinXP MCE then why would I want to go for a basic OS + any other competing softwares which would cost me much more? As humans we always look for value for money, the biggest bang for our buck. Even when a component does not cost me any money to get, I would rather save the effort if the built-in component suffices my need. If it doesn't, I simply go in for one which does.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Jucken on 1/20/2009 5:13:46 PM , Rating: 2
I think you didn't understand exactly what happens, the problem is not about getting a table, it's about being able to handle its lines using the aforementioned methods.

Transparency is part of W3C's CSS3 Recomendation, and it works on every browser that I know (except IE).

I also am not complaining about IE's extra features. I am complaining about IE's violations of the web standards.

If I recall correctly, CSS exists at least since 1996 and Javascript since 1995.

And as I said before, I don't agree with the EU accusing Microsoft of "trying to stifle the competition" for bundling a web browser with their OS. I think they should accuse Microsoft of doing so for bundling a non-standards-compliant web browser with their OS. But I too am looking for "the biggest bang for my buck". I want Windows to come with a web browser, but it should be a standards-compliant browser.


By cbf on 1/20/2009 11:42:22 PM , Rating: 1
Jucken --

It's pretty misleading to say CSS "exists" (has existed?) since 1996 in the same post where you decry Microsoft for not implementing CSS3. CSS3 is not a W3C Recommendation. It's not done yet. Please take a look at the CSS status page on the W3C website: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work. It should also be clear that CSS3 has many moving parts. While it's fine to cheer other browsers for implementing to working drafts, there's an inherent risk in doing so (i.e. the final recommendation might be different), so it's a bit unfair to castigate Microsoft for not implementing things that aren't finished yet.

Also, note that W3C's "standards" are deliberately called recommendations, not "standards". This might seem to be nit-picky point, but if you're going to talk about prosecuting Microsoft for not implementing "standards", it becomes a more important point. In much of the world "standards" nearly have, or do have the force of law. But the process for creating those standards (at for example, ISO) is much slower and more political than the W3C. The W3C's terminology of "recommendation" was carefully chosen to make the difference clear. The upside -- especially in the early days -- was that it made the process comparatively less risky for companies like Microsoft (but also others) to participate in the process, and decide things relatively quickly as these things go. (The process has certainly slowed in recent years, but that's not necessarily bad.)

In fact in the early days, it was Netscape, not Microsoft who created de-facto standards. Netscape's practice when it almost completely owned the browser market was to create a new feature (e.g. tables), then ship it in their browser, and only afterwards propose the feature to the W3C. Also, the Netscape browser created a lot of the mess we're in by rendering just about any mal-formed HTML that you threw at it (yes, they were trying to be user-friendly here, and it didn't become apparent until years later what a mess this led to -- a lesson we learned for XML). A lot of what IE did was to be compatible with Netscape's quirks.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By TomZ on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
By Zshazz on 1/19/2009 7:34:22 PM , Rating: 4
You clearly haven't ever done web development.

W3C defines certain standards, and most browsers follow them. IE doesn't, so when you design the layout/style of your site, it'll look fine in many browsers (because they do what they're suppose to), but IE doesn't work properly because it does something differently, so you have to work around it. Standards are there for a reason, and that's so your website will look the same no matter what the browser is.

He does his diligence by checking with IE to make sure it works right, but honestly, it should be better at following standards so that those unable to use IE won't have any issues with the 60% of the internet audience.

Now, the crappy web developers are the ones who code to IE's standards :-p ... I can't stand it when I go to a site in FF and it turns out so wrong, but works fine in IE... yech.

That said, sometimes there are weird issues with other browsers, but generally speaking, from my experience, the only browser you get issues with is IE (or if you coded with IE, you'll "get issues" from every other browser out there, haha).

Personally, though... I think Microsoft should be allowed to bundle a web browser... Maybe they could gimp IE (and call it "IE Express"?) and make it so it can't do anything but go to websites... no history, no bookmarks, no nothing... maybe a link to a "get full-featured web browser" link that allows the user to get a full IE or FF or Opera... whatever.


By Jucken on 1/19/2009 7:54:56 PM , Rating: 2
So to summarize, your argument consists of insinuating that I am inept. Well, unfortunately for you I am a bit literate with mathematics (and thus logics), and I happen to know that that is not even an argument .

If, for some reason, you prefer to defend a company whose interests are contrary to yours (unless of course you are a Microsoft shareholder) than to defend your own interests as a customer, then I learn that I shouldn't argue with you because every word that comes from you express an uncontrollable desire to impose your blind love for a monopolist company upon everything and everyone, sometimes falling into the pathetic cliff of ignominy that is shooting inflamed darts at everyone that doesn't happen to agree with you.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By afkrotch on 1/20/2009 4:12:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
IE can only be run on Windows


It can also run on OSX and Linux. Look it up.

quote:
Microsoft has effectivelly limited their customers's freedom of choice with their bad standards support.


IE7 and IE8. Can run both non-compliant and compliant sites.

quote:
You will eventually face a website which requires IE to work, and then you're stuck: you have to buy Windows and use Internet Explorer.


Blame the website makers. Maybe they should have built their sites to be compliant and pretty much forced Microsoft to create a more compliant browser. Could have been done years ago, but no one seemed to care.

quote:
But you forgot to mention that IE isn't free, you have to buy Windows in order to run it.


Or you can just install Linux on OSX or Linux. www.google.com

quote:
They should rather be fining Microsoft for bundling a non-standards-compliant web browser with their OS.


Well not like any browser is fully standards compliant. Just some are moreso than others.

Besides since IE7, they've been more compliant than ever before and it comes standard on Vista. Not like many ppl made that jump, but I'm guessing that IE8 will come standard with Windows 7. It'll be standards compliant, as much as any other browser.

For the home users, the compliant mode of IE8 is really fcking annoying. They really need to make the swapping between compliant and IE6-ish mode transparent.


By Jucken on 1/20/2009 4:38:06 PM , Rating: 2
You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

The IE EULA strictly forbids you from running it without a Windows license:

quote:
NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR ANY "OS PRODUCT" (MICROSOFT WINDOWS 95, MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT WORKSTATION 4.0, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER 4.0, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER, ENTERPRISE EDITION 4.0 OR MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER 4.0, TERMINAL SERVER EDITION), YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY, OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA.


IE7 is not a standards compliant web browser . I have provided examples of IE's uncompliance. And even if other browsers are not completely compliant (most still don't support some minor features, and of course they do have their own share of bugs), they don't deliberately violate the standards in critical ways.

You also contradict yourself when you say I should blame the web developers, but then you say the web developers should put the burden on Microsoft. What the hell do you think I am doing when I go around denouncing the facts about Microsoft? And why should I blame the web developers if it is Microsoft who created a bad piece of software?


By Oregonian2 on 1/19/2009 4:58:01 PM , Rating: 3
Having been a HW design engineer in the Telecom world, I can say that a Cisco standard is more important than a standards based standard. There's at least one interface where Cisco had a bug in their design that made their "standard" interface non-standard. Wanna guess which way third party companies need to make their standard interfaces? Yup -- copy the bug or die!


By Iger on 1/20/2009 5:13:37 AM , Rating: 2
The problem with IE is hidden in the fact, that Microsoft's tried to make something more than a browser out of it (namely, by creating a very ambitious ActiveX platform).
As a code base to "view html and process javascript" IE is lackluster as shown by Jucken's posts (his points are quite correct, imo, btw).
- IE is not compliant to standards and good Web Developers indeed start with building their sites to W3C standards and then adding support where necessary for IE. This is terrible and only MS's fault.
- IE (7 at least) still lacks lots of more-or-less standard features (download manager <cough>) and needs special add-ons for these.
- IE's unnecessarily tight integration with OS has been the source of a lot of security holes throughout the last years.

As a code base for processing ActiveX, however, IE is the only platform... Thus, lots of applications based on ActiveX technology cannot exist without IE - and it is perfectly ok, imo. ActiveX failed, but the legacy support is still important.

Perhaps the technically correct way to solve the problem would be to make MS to "separate" ActiveX from Web Browsing. Renaming IE into some kind of "ActivePlatform" and providing (if they really want it) a new version of IE focused on what web browsing should be - standards and convenience.

Is this technically-correct-way "good" for the rest of the world? I think it is more of a penalty for MS for making a wrong decision (coupling ActiveX with HTML) and using their monopolistic position to bring it upon us).

Does it really worth it? I'm not sure. But while I was writing this post I leant slowly from "no" to "yes" :)


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By bighairycamel on 1/19/2009 11:23:26 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
You can't uninstall the Internet Explorer, and if you do so, you run the risk of errors in the most unexpected places - HTML help, for an example, Active Desktop for another.
Are you on XP? If so do me a favor... go to control panel > add or remove programs > add/remove windows components button > uncheck Internet Explorer > click Next.... voila! The software is gone but windows still functions completely normal!

The explorer shell != internet explorer. Those things you mentioned will still function properly. The steps above remove the ability to access the windows component, effectively disabling IE.


By Strunf on 1/19/2009 6:49:18 PM , Rating: 3
You may as well just delete the link yourself cause that's what windows will do for you.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By FITCamaro on 1/19/2009 11:09:17 AM , Rating: 4
Exactly. No one charges money for browsers. Nor is there anything limiting what browsers can be run on Windows. Bundling IE with Windows is fine with 99% of the people out there. If you don't want to use it, you simply install another browser.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By BZDTemp on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By bruce24 on 1/19/2009 12:49:21 PM , Rating: 2
>>> Microsoft ran Netscape out of business by giving away IE.

I don't remember Netscape charging for it's browser.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 12:55:46 PM , Rating: 3
It was free for non-commercial use, but business use required purchasing a license. That had to be scrapped when Microsoft made IE free for all. Netscape then had to figure out some other way to make money, which it never really did.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By SandmanWN on 1/19/2009 4:29:52 PM , Rating: 3
Yet Mozilla was free and is currently thriving along with many other free browsers... Hmmmm

I suppose we should blame MS for Netscape's failure to adapt even though others seem to survive and thrive. Nope, makes no sense to me.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By MadMan007 on 1/20/2009 5:43:05 AM , Rating: 4
Mozilla is free to end users but it's not free to develop. In other words, their model wouldn't be able to stand on its own without outside support, a crucial detail to remember.


By SandmanWN on 1/20/2009 6:15:40 PM , Rating: 2
Thats right Mozilla makes money on a free browser, which is my point exactly. Why couldn't Netscape do the same. Bad business model, bad outreach program, not listening to users. Either way its through no fault of MS that Netscape failed and others are finding not only room in the market but expanding rapidly. That is the point of contestation in the EU's case.


By tasdk on 1/21/2009 12:10:05 AM , Rating: 2
NCSA Mosaic was free before Netscape even existed. That's why Netscape Navigator was code-named 'Mozilla' (Mosaic killer) -- in order for it to succeed, it would have to wipe out Mosaic, which meant it had to be given away to all the people using Mosaic.

Netscape management also had the idea of charging commercial users, although some of those involved didn't think that was a viable strategy, and all along favoured giving the browser away to everyone, but selling the server. Obviously that didn't pan out, and whether it would have done if Microsoft hadn't started giving away IE is far from clear.

In any case, giving something away for free is no guarantee of success. It also has to be good enough. A case in point is Linux: it's free, but people still buy Windows, because Linux isn't good enough. IE was good enough, and over time became better than Netscape Navigator (especially for developing bespoke applications with ActiveX -- a key selling point for commercial users), so it took over the market.

When Microsoft allowed IE to stagnate, Firefox popped up and started to displace it, so Microsoft had to start improving it. The growth of Firefox alone is evidence that including IE in Windows doesn't prevent a better browser displacing it.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By vapore0n on 1/19/2009 1:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
I do.

Most computers back in the win3.1 days did not come with a browser. You could by IE and Netscape. Or you could get a free CD from AOL lol.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:10:17 PM , Rating: 4
Windows 3.1 didn't even have a TCP/IP stack. Bill Gates thought the Internet was a flash in the pan, and that pay portals (glorified BBSes) like CompuServe and AOL would dominate. So he refused to release a TCP/IP stack for Windows. You had to get Trumpet Winsock (google it) and install it (quite a painful process) to get Windows 3.0/3.1 on the Internet. It was Gate's biggest mistake in his career, and caused Windows to be several years late to joining the Internet. Windows 95 was the first version of Windows with a TCP/IP stack built-in.

It's also what gave Netscape the breathing room to establish a foothold (they originally coded for Unix, and ported to Windows). And is probably why the Internet is still relatively OS-neutral, instead of requiring Windows like Microsoft would've liked (their ActiveX gambit was an attempt at making websites require Windows).


By foolsgambit11 on 1/19/2009 9:24:19 PM , Rating: 2
Luckily, for most people, the internet went ahead and waited for Windows. Okay, it wasn't luck, it was market penetration. And it wasn't lucky, since it delayed widespread internet use.


By tasdk on 1/20/2009 11:49:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows 95 was the first version of Windows with a TCP/IP stack built-in.

That isn't true. Windows NT 3.1, which was released in 1993, included a TCP/IP stack.

Microsoft's mistake was in being overly optimistic about how quickly Windows NT would catch on. To be fair, however, the early lack of success of operating systems like Windows NT and OS/2 had a lot to do with RAM prices falling more slowly than everyone had anticipated.

High RAM prices gave a new lease of life to the 16-bit MS-DOS/Windows system, and paved the way for Windows 95, which was basically a back-port of NT's Win32 API to an enhanced version of the old MS-DOS/Win16 kernel, with a UI based on the planned but never-released Cairo version of NT included.


By otispunkmeyer on 1/19/2009 2:13:55 PM , Rating: 3
the EU is stupid full stop

i hate those knob heads in brussels trying to control everything.

i dont even get how this is anticompetitive? all the other browsers worth having are friggin free to download!!!!


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By monomer on 1/19/2009 4:34:24 PM , Rating: 2
Heck, Microsoft should just give in and release a special European version of Windows that doesn't include a web browser at all, and funnel all the complaints back to the EU.

Of course, this would be disastrous to their bottom line, but would be funny as hell when the shit hits the fan.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Sazar on 1/19/2009 6:18:29 PM , Rating: 5
You mean Windows N or whatever it was called?

You mean the version that they DID release to comply with standards and sold their regular OS on the shelf at the same time and the N version sold barely a few copies?

Yep, I guess the EU doesn't look back and see how dumb their policies are.

If MS were a European company, they would not be facing these issues.


By Pneumothorax on 1/19/2009 11:41:36 PM , Rating: 2
EXACTLY!! M$oft should just pay like $50 million (large, but still small compared to the EU's Stupid fines) to a small FRENCH, GERMAN, (insert EU country) software company to make the browser for the EuroWindows version. I'll bet that'll take the idiots off their back.


By tasdk on 1/21/2009 12:23:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If MS were a European company, they would not be facing these issues.

I don't think that's true. In the first place, most of the firms being investigated by the EC are in fact based in the EU. In the second place, most of the lobbying of the EC to investigate Microsoft has come from a trade group led by IBM. In the third place, Opera is Norwegian, and Norway isn't a member of the EU.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By tastyratz on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 11:17:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows update should have been an independent application long ago.


Windows Update is an independent application in both Vista and Windows 7, as well as their associated server versions.

Using Windows Update in full on XP does require IE, but Automatic Updates do not. Automatic Update is the only update function needed or used by the vast majority of users.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 12:32:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Windows Update is an independent application in both Vista and Windows 7, as well as their associated server versions.

It is now. You have to know the history of how all this happened. Back when Netscape ruled the browser market and Microsoft was trying to break in, they were under investigation by the FTC for monopolistic behavior. The charge then, as in this article, was bundling of unnecessary apps and features with the OS to drive competitors out of the market.

So they could legitimately say that IE was essential to the OS, rather than making IE a standalone browser like it should've been, Microsoft tied it deeply with Windows' internal operations. ActiveX, Windows Update, and the reputation IE has gained for huge security holes are all a consequence of this.

Now that their plan succeeded and they dominate the browser market, they can ease up on things like tying Update with IE. Its deep interconnectedness with the OS (causing security problems) has proven more difficult to undo as many apps and features on ActiveX websites now rely on it.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:12:22 PM , Rating: 3
I do know the history of the browser wars. However, I don't find it productive to harp on Microsoft for design choices in products that are no longer available. People are talking about these things as if they are still true, even though Windows 2000 is the last OS for which IE is required for installing updates.

The world has moved on, and both the landscape. In 1998 one could argue that a web browser was an unnecessary inclusion for the OS, but a decade later that is not the case. A computer without a web browser will be severely lacking in functionality, to the extent of lacking the ability to acquire that missing functionality.

I'd like Microsoft to go a step further and allow users to uninstall IE (though the Trident layout engine should remain in all cases, see TomZ post above), but I don't think the government should force that. Forcing them to flat out remove it from Windows would be flat out absurd, and terrible for consumers and even the competition - the Mozilla Foundation, for example, would need to redefine their business model to accommodate for the loss of their main means of distributing their software.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:24:23 PM , Rating: 2
Right, which is why you have to take pre-emptive steps to prevent these things from happening in the future. Or punitive steps to punish the monopolist for past behavior. Requiring Microsoft to unbundle IE now would serve little purpose.

quote:
the Mozilla Foundation, for example, would need to redefine their business model to accommodate for the loss of their main means of distributing their software.

Nearly every open source project already allows downloads via both http and ftp. Some of them even let you grab files via nfs (only a standard service with Windows Server, but comes with most Unix distros).


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:33:47 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Nearly every open source project already allows downloads via both http and ftp. Some of them even let you grab files via nfs (only a standard service with Windows Server, but comes with most Unix distros).


Completely ridiculous. FTP and NFS could not be used for mass market distribution of a web browser. The organizations in question would need to do something like mail out the download information to every address, along with the toll-free support number for the majority of users who wouldn't be able to proceed without additional support. It would probably be cheaper for Mozilla to mail out install CDs to everyone.

Ahh, it brings to mind the good old days of unlimited free AOL-branded coasters. That was such a great era of computer history, I can't wait to return to it.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:45:01 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Completely ridiculous. FTP and NFS could not be used for mass market distribution of a web browser. The organizations in question would need to do something like mail out the download information to every address

Open command prompt.
ftp ftp.mozilla.org
Follow instructions that show up on your screen.

Sure the instructions could be better, but they're not because most people get it via http. If ftp were the primary download route, you can bet the instructions would take into account first-time ftp users.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:48:59 PM , Rating: 2
And how are these instructions being delivered to users? It's not like they can exactly Google them.


By SandmanWN on 1/19/2009 4:40:20 PM , Rating: 4
I would love to see a poll from street users asking the following questions... (video responses would be to die for)

1) What is a web browser and where do you get one? (This should pretty much wrap up the discussion right there.)

2) What is FTP and how do you use it? (At this point I would be in tears from laughter.)

3) What is a command prompt? (Oh god the agony.)

4) Anyone want to take it further go ahead. I'm sure you can see where this is going. The stunned a beleaguered look on these peoples faces is all you need to find the answers you need as to why the EU should drop this case immediately.

All I can say is there will be a sharp rise in tech support employees jumping from tall buildings.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By niva on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
By TOAOCyrus on 1/19/2009 2:49:03 PM , Rating: 5
I'm all for protecting competition but forcing one company to bundle and advertise product a competitors product in theirs kinda has the opposite effect don't you think?


By seamonkey79 on 1/19/2009 4:39:50 PM , Rating: 4
Are you going to sit there and walk people through how they're supposed to download a web browser without a web browser?

I mean, really, all 99.99% of people that use a computer?


By Donkeyshins on 1/19/2009 2:16:48 PM , Rating: 3
At this point, it's water under the bridge. Trying to decouple IE from Vista and Windows 7 is less about the users and more about the EU yet again trying to belly up to the bar and extract more cash from Microsoft. If Microsoft had such an anticompetitive advantage with IE, then why are we seeing the growth of market share by Firefox (or Chrome, for that matter)?

Netscape's decline had just as much to do with Navigator (Communicator) 4.x which was slower and less stable than IE 5.0. Any further failings had more to do with Netscape hitching its mule to AOL than underhanded practices by Microsoft.

And, to reinforce the the OP, if you are going to sue Microsoft for IE, you're going to have to sue Apple for Safari.


By MadMan007 on 1/19/2009 2:01:03 PM , Rating: 5
That's nice. Maybe the EU can use the fine money to invent a time machine and go back and sue MS when those facts were relevant.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Alareth on 1/19/2009 1:00:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How can you install a web browser if you have no way to get on the web and download one? And using ftp or other methods is far less user friendly for people who don't browse DT.


Honestly, if IE weren't included with Windows and we did have to use ftp there would be a lawsuit because Microsoft is forcing people to use it's ftp client and not giving them the choice to use something like Cuteftp ...

They are a big juicy target and this will continue no matter what decisions they make for good or bad.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:03:22 PM , Rating: 1
The ftp client in Windows is very basic, like the Write word processor. If you want a full-featured ftp client like Cuteftp or Wustl, you can get those. Just like you can buy Word or (once upon a time) WordPerfect.

IE OTOH is a full-featured browser.


By jhb116 on 1/19/2009 11:56:35 PM , Rating: 2
Funny thing is that if M$ made IE a basic browser with few features - it would probably be faster, less buggy and much more resistant to malicious code - ie - it would probably retake much of its lost market share.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Bateluer on 1/19/2009 11:32:56 AM , Rating: 5
By the EU's logic, Apple should be sued for bundling Safari with OSX. Ubuntu, Red Hat, Mandriva, etc should all be sued for bundling Firefox with their distros. GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, and Honda should all be sued for providing stereos and speakers in their cars.

As others have said, an OS without a browser is a broken operating system.

The EU is just out to get money. The EU gets to use the VAT on sales of Windows, and it seems like they want to 1)fine MS for more money and 2)collect VAT on sales of boxed browsers, not to mention other software.

Do they really expect to walk into a store, buy Windows, a web browser, a graphics editing program, a media player, a text editor, etc? They need to wake up and smell the coffee.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By rcc on 1/19/2009 12:25:55 PM , Rating: 3
Next year it'll be the default hard drive drivers they go after. After all, it's not a true or necessay part of an OS, right?

Or, Windows Explorer. Clearly it keeps Norton Commander and Xtree from competing.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations on this stuff? It's a bit late for the EU to be accusing Microsoft of wrongdoing for what they did in the days of Netscape.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Solandri on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:43:57 PM , Rating: 4
The issue has already been settled in the US in the US v. Microsoft. Retroactively punishing them a decade after the fact in every jurisdiction where they do business isn't punitive, it's just vindictive.

Also, it made little sense to require Microsoft to unbundle IE when the case was filed in 1998. By the time Windows 98 was released, an operating system without a web browser made no sense. It was inevitable that operating systems would include web browsers as a standard feature. Without that, the dot com boom never would have happened, the dot com bust never would have followed it, and the subsequent development of solid business models for IT wouldn't have given us the proliferation of e-business that we take for granted today.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By BZDTemp on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
By arazok on 1/19/2009 1:17:14 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Have you looked at Microsoft's prices lately. Wonder why the prices of Microsoft software seems to be rising while anything else in the IT world becomes cheaper?


Hardware prices fall. Software not so much.

I am paying the same price today for Quicken, tax software, anti-virus, etc as I did 10 years ago.

Software prices don’t fall. It’s ridiculously expensive to write software, so the major apps tends to be dominated by 1-2 major brands. Once they have their platforms built and their user bases established, it’s too expensive for smaller shops to try and catch up, so nothing happens.

I’ve been wishing someone would build a descent alternative to Money/Quicken for over 10 years. It never happens. God how I hate Quicken – yet I use it daily.

Although I agree that MS’s OS’s are overpriced, you’re hardly getting gouged, and they do invest in their products. They spent billions on Vista. MSDN is free. Imagine having to pay for that stuff?


By kmmatney on 1/19/2009 7:43:19 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, Microsoft has lowered their prices quite a bit - especially for home users. I just bought a 3-user license of Office 2007 for home use for $79. In fact, this product was one of the best sellers on Amazon over Christmas. Before that, I was both OpenOffice and old pirated copies of windows 2000. It was great to be able to update to a real Office suite for so cheap. Openoffice never did it for me.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Zuul on 1/19/2009 12:48:54 PM , Rating: 4
MS can not ship another browser with their OS - by doing so it makes them liable for support for that browser.

MS needs to make a point to the EU - they should remove IE from MS Windows XP/Vista for the EU region and direct all support questions relating to 'how do I get a browser' to the EU.

I think that's fair, they make MS do extra work by creating s seperate distribution for EU countries, and the EU deals with the fallout of users who dont know what to do.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By kattanna on 1/19/2009 1:03:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
they should remove IE from MS Windows XP/Vista for the EU region


there already is a version that doesnt come with media player from the last EU lawsuit.. and you know what.. no one bought it. and why would they buy a incomplete version?


By Zuul on 1/19/2009 1:19:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
there already is a version that doesnt come with media player from the last EU lawsuit.. and you know what.. no one bought it. and why would they buy a incomplete version?


I'm saying have only a single version stripped down completely - dont even give the option for people to buy the OS w/ IE, WMP, their FTP client and anything else that MS could be fined for. It'd save MS a lot of money and make a mockery of the EU's Antitrust Commission.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By Hare on 1/19/2009 12:58:41 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
if the very practice of including a web browser with the OS install is "anti-competitive" then they had better fine apple as well because by default without any choice it installs safari.

While I agree with you and many others 100%, you really need to understand that MS has a monopoly position in the market and because of this, the same rules don't automatically apply to all companies. The EU, The US and many other nations have all sanctioned MS for their monopolistic behavior but let companies like Apple (with their minimal marketshare) continue bundling software.

Once again to avoid the flames: I think it is complete nonsense that MS would need to remove their browser. I mean c'mon, where do you draw the line? Let's wait and see when they need to remove Windows Defender to make room for antispyware companies... Or remove the filebrowser, thumbnail generator etc...

Well actually, now that I think about it. At some point Apple OS's came with Netscape and Internet explorer and during the OS installation, the user could choose which browser to install. That wouldn't be so bad, if e.g. Vista came with let's say IE7, FF3 and Opera.


RE: then they had better fine apple as well
By MadMan007 on 1/19/2009 2:07:34 PM , Rating: 2
I think it's funny how people talk about a monopoly given how the browser marketshare in the article looks. Monopoly in OS marketshare? Sure. In browser marketshare? Hardly.


By Hare on 1/19/2009 2:45:28 PM , Rating: 2
The point is that when IE is preinstalled on 95% of all computers sold, the competition advantage is quite big. As we saw with earlier IE versions, MS used this advantage to gain large browser market share and because of this we now have huge CSS compatibility issues etc because MS decided that they wouldn't have to follow standards and implemented their own. Every single thing that MS does is based on business value (like it should for a big corporation), but that may not be for the good of the consumer. That's what the EU is trying to protect (even though this browser issue seems a bit dumb).


By Guttersnipe on 1/19/2009 4:52:42 PM , Rating: 3
bingo, this is ridiculous economic warfare. if you include anything with an os it is anticompetitive? give me a break, consumers want MORE not less features for their money. where do they get the gall to draw the line where features stop and where they end. if they were consistent they'd have to rule cars should not come with factory radios installed as that is unfair to after market radio installers and manufacturers.


By ceefka on 1/19/2009 5:16:49 PM , Rating: 2
Plus: You would want one browser at least to get started and to download one of your choice (FF, Chrome etc.). Do they expect us to go an buy a Firefox CD? Please let them include IE, perhaps just not install it standard or install an IE-Lite version, something, leave it as an option, but do include it.


By kelmon on 1/20/2009 5:50:03 AM , Rating: 2
The first thing is that this article would have been a whole lot better had it not got its information from a pretty poor BBC News article that left out quite a bit of information. One key part of the text from the EU is the following:

quote:
In addition, the Commission is concerned that the ubiquity of Internet Explorer creates artificial incentives for content providers and software developers to design websites or software primarily for Internet Explorer which ultimately risks undermining competition and innovation in the provision of services to consumers.


This and a proper analysis of the statement was made by CNet (http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10144602-75.html... back on the 16th January. I was honestly surprised that Mr. Mick didn't post something on this then but apparently he as to wait for an article by Engadget to appear before he noticed it. The timing is spooky...

Anyway, Apple would not be subject to the same complaint, much the same as any Linux distribution, because Safari is a standards-compliant browser and therefore can be swapped for another such browser without a deterioration in the browsing experience. Web pages that work in Safari would not appear mangled in Opera, for example. The same cannot be said for web pages written for IE and this is especially true in corporate web applications. A lot of those that we use in the office will not work in another browser. And that's the real problem here, not bundling.


By Rodney McNaggerton on 1/20/2009 9:51:47 PM , Rating: 2
Not only that but where do we draw the limits? Should Windows not include a graphics API because it's harmful to competition? "Windows comes with a taskbar which harms the ability of third part UI's to compete" Certain programs need to be installed on a computer in order for the computer to be functional. The EU's ideal version of a computer is one where you install the OS and cannot do anything with it until you download tons of third party applications. Oh and you can't download those third party applications, because there's no internet browser!


By tasdk on 1/20/2009 11:33:25 PM , Rating: 2
I think this latest complaint is baseless nonsense, driven by lobbying from firms that simply can't compete on the merits. However, the difference between Microsoft and Apple is simply market share. The EC (and USDoJ) generally don't care about issues like bundling (or mergers) until market share gets to about 30-40%. Once a firm reaches that level, it's considered 'dominant', and has to be more careful.

Unfortunately, competition law is rather vague, so 'dominant' firms can't clearly know whether or not their behaviour is legal or illegal until a court ruling, after the fact. This makes it subject to capricious enforcement, which is bad for the rule of law and faith in public institutions. For example, the current EU Competition Commissioner, Neely Kroes, has made public statements supporting open source, so these attacks on Microsoft have a certain appearance of impropriety (at least from my vantage point).


By Nighteye2 on 1/21/2009 6:56:07 AM , Rating: 2
It's not better. That would only be the case if it were optional to install - on the windows CD, but deselectable or unselected by default.

As it is, you cannot choose not to install IE. And then IE takes up system resources and increases boot times by pre-loading when you boot - even if you never use it.

*that* is the problem.


der
By MadMan007 on 1/19/2009 10:47:04 AM , Rating: 3
No IE means no way to get on the internet to download a different browser. Are the EU golddiggers (nice article picture btw) seriously that retarded?

Also it's the OEMs who can choose to bundle additional software, it shouldn't be up to MS to bundle other web browsers. Now if they can prove MS created disincentives, say in license pricing, as a threat for bundling other browsers in addition to IE have at em. Otherwise this is one I hope MS doesn't lose although that's unlikely.




RE: der
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 11:11:18 AM , Rating: 2
My thoughts exactly.

If an operating system ships without a web browser, then how the hell are you going to get any web browser installed?

Does the EU want every customer to have to buy a boxed copy of browser software at a brick & mortar location and install that? Do any web browsers even exist that can be acquired without being downloaded from a website (or bundled with the OS)?

It isn't 1994 any more. An operating system that doesn't include a web browser is fundamentally broken and unworkable.

Like you say, unless MS is making OEMs pay more for Windows licenses (or otherwise abusing its OS market share to put other browsers out of business), these accusations are beyond absurd.


RE: der
By Spivonious on 1/19/2009 11:16:53 AM , Rating: 2
It's just like the Windows "N" versions that don't have Media Player preinstalled. Sure they exist, but no one stocks them and no one buys them.


RE: der
By The Irish Patient on 1/19/2009 5:05:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does the EU want every customer to have to buy a boxed copy of browser software at a brick & mortar location and install that?


Yes, that's exactly what they want. The purpose is to protect an EU based business, not to protect consumers.


RE: der
By rudolphna on 1/19/2009 11:27:35 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the same thing.... If there is no browser, you cannot get a DIFFERENT browser.


RE: der
By Solandri on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: der
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:27:48 PM , Rating: 2
An FTP client?

Are you serious?

You think it's feasible for one of the most important pieces of software on a computer to be acquired through a command-line FTP client?

What percentage of users could acquire such a file through such a client without a helpdesk call, even assuming they were somehow provided with the address (which would be a challenge in itself)?


RE: der
By Solandri on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: der
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 2:02:44 PM , Rating: 2
This sounds eerily similar to hardcore Linux advocates who insist, "But 'configure; make; make install' is just as easy as double clicking an exe, there's no reason your grandmother couldn't use Linux on her desktop!"

(Note that I am a Linux user)


RE: der
By gmyx on 1/19/2009 2:11:39 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly,I'm a Linux user as well but hate having to constantly drop to the terminal to accomplish a relatively simple task. While I enjoy the fact that terminal is there (just like cmd in Windows) it's too much to ask of a regular user.

My factory case example is fanspeed. In windows, you install SpeedFan and your done, in Linux... That took me 30 minutes to set up it had so many steps and options.


RE: der
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 2:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
You too?

I probably spent an entire day farting around with lm-sensors trying to figure out how it worked, only to later find that it was a useless package without an additional front-end. This wasn't really clear from anything in their documentation or online FAQ. After that realization it was as simple as 'aptitude install ksensors' followed by some GUI customization, but bloody hell if I wasn't pissed about having wasted so much time on it.


RE: der
By gmyx on 1/19/2009 2:08:27 PM , Rating: 2
Let me run that by my father in law and let you know. His answer: get lost! It must be easy. Let me count the ways a user could screw that one up!.

Just because you can do it, not every one can.


RE: der
By Totally on 1/19/2009 6:39:51 PM , Rating: 5
So by following your intructions

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7000]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

C:\Users\Heretic>ftp ftp.mozilla.org
Connected to dm-ftp01.mozilla.org.
220-
220- ftp.mozilla.org / archive.mozilla.org - files are in /pub/mozilla.org
220-
220- Notice: This server is the only place to obtain nightly builds and needs
to
220- remain available to developers and testers. High bandwidth servers that
220- contain the public release files are available at ftp://releases.mozilla.
org/
220- If you need to link to a public release, please link to the release serve
r,
220- not here. Thanks!
220-
220- Attempts to download high traffic release files from this server will get
a
220- "550 Permission denied." response.
220
User (dm-ftp01.mozilla.org:(none)): anonymous
331 Please specify the password.
Password:
230-
230- ftp.mozilla.org / archive.mozilla.org - files are in /pub/mozilla.org
230-
230- Notice: This server is the only place to obtain nightly builds and needs
to
230- remain available to developers and testers. High bandwidth servers that
230- contain the public release files are available at ftp://releases.mozilla.
org/
230- If you need to link to a public release, please link to the release serve
r,
230- not here. Thanks!
230-
230- Attempts to download high traffic release files from this server will get
a
230- "550 Permission denied." response.
230 Login successful.
ftp> get firefox.exe
200 PORT command successful. Consider using PASV.
550 Failed to open file.
ftp>

need to call techsupport.


RE: der
By HrilL on 1/19/2009 11:55:09 PM , Rating: 1
What you fail to realize is wouldn't it be just as anti-competitive for Microsoft to include an ftp client. That would be the next thing to get put on the chopping block.


RE: der
By henrikfm on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: der
By noirsoft on 1/19/2009 12:18:39 PM , Rating: 2
You should have launched IE yourself and told it to stop checking to see if it is the default browser. Tools -> Internet Options -> Programs -> right there at the top.

No need to blame Microsoft for that one, as all browsers do the same check. The failure of browser selection to be per-user is a big fault within Windows (at least with XP, I haven't tried with Vista or 7) -- I prefer IE7, but it seems every time I go in to use a shared machine in my lab, the default browser has been set back to a hideously old version of Firefox.


RE: der
By BZDTemp on 1/19/2009 12:44:40 PM , Rating: 1
If we are talking XP on your parents computer some of the windows updates actually shift the default browser setting to IE regardless of what setting you made. So it can well be they were never asked anything at all!


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: der
By rcc on 1/19/2009 12:33:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Three letters for you...FTP.


A bunch of letters for you.....

"Most computer uses don't even know what FTP is, much less how to use it."


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: der
By FITCamaro on 1/19/2009 1:45:19 PM , Rating: 3
Ok but then you're assuming Microsoft would have to write and install this script by default to the desktop.


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/2009 2:15:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok but then you're assuming Microsoft would have to write and install this script by default to the desktop.


Correct. If they lose the trial and are forced to unbundle it, this would be a method they could do to clear things up. Once again, I could care less about that, I am merely pointing out the statement of it being impossible to get a browser anywhere but HTTP is wrong.


RE: der
By VaultDweller on 1/19/2009 1:54:50 PM , Rating: 3
Cool.

So how are people going to get this silly script onto their desktop?

Oh, hey, they can download it with FTP!

Oh, wait...


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: der
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/19/2009 2:37:48 PM , Rating: 2
A technical solution that fails to take into account the problem at hand, is infact not a solution. I'm pretty sick of tech guys arguing on technicality when they are making the problem worse not better.

The Not my problem, and Don't care is not an acceptable deflection. If you want to present a possible solution it had better be an END TO END solution, not some half cocked crap thrown out there as a theory. If you care enough to pipe in with an opinion and a possible option, then you had better care enough to make sure its a complete solution that solves the problem and doesn't cause additional problems.


RE: der
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:42:44 PM , Rating: 2
I personally reserve the right to put forward half-baked ideas and opinions. :o)

After all, this is a semi-social web site, not a business meeting.


RE: der
By bodar on 1/20/2009 5:46:07 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, Tom but I don't think this idea has enough traction. Maybe you should get some more stakeholders on board. Also, did you get the memo about the TPS reports? We're putting cover sheets on them before they go out now...


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: der
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:57:12 PM , Rating: 1
At one point in time, most users didn't even know what a browser was, much less how to use it.


RE: der
By MadMan007 on 1/19/2009 2:15:39 PM , Rating: 2
Five letters for you...PIFOK. Do we seriously expect sixpacks to FTP their browser? And trying to entirely scipt or automate it would be a logistical nightmare. What happens if or when the FTP changes? What if Mozilla dies? How is it determined which browsers to include? What happens when a new browser like Chrome comes out after the script is included in an RTM of Windows? MS isn't going to make a new pressing or expect vendors to make new images every time something like that happens.

No it would be more like 'My computer didn't come with the internets??!'


RE: der
By Gzus666 on 1/19/2009 2:21:07 PM , Rating: 1
I don't know what you expect, but I set no expectations. He stated "No IE means no way to get on the internet to download a different browser.", I refuted this statement with proof that it is entirely POSSIBLE to do without it. Don't care how plausible or easy or fun it is. Don't care whether you like the thought of it or what the average user does or anything. I merely refuted a statement, you dimwits decided I was advocating it in some way.


RE: der
By MadMan007 on 1/20/2009 5:50:41 AM , Rating: 3
Possible to do versus real-world implementation viewpoints.


RE: der
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:24:30 PM , Rating: 2
It would be a very easy job for Microsoft to put a tool in Windows that would handle the job of letting the user select and install the browser of their choice. Browser vendors could register their information with Microsoft, and Microsoft could make that information available in real-time to the browser install tool.

That would give consumers a "true" choice and completely level the playing field. But the downside is that each user would have to figure out and decide which browser to install.

For me, I don't care much about the browser, but I do like that when I install the OS, a decent browser is integrated. It saves me time. To me, the small effort to download and install another browser is not worth the incremental benefit. That goes for FireFox, Opera, and even IE8 Beta.


RE: der
By tasdk on 1/21/2009 1:33:13 AM , Rating: 2
I think that would be a good idea. However, PC vendors should be allowed to choose a standard browser for PCs they sell, to avoid additional support costs, and paying a PC vendor to make a specific browser the default should be prohibited, unless Microsoft are allowed to do it too.


RE: der
By ceefka on 1/28/2009 4:59:59 PM , Rating: 2
When PC vendors distribute FF, Opera etc. it will add to the costs. People should otherwise be made aware that there is life after IE, but it is no shame to use it as a starting point. This stance of the EU is too theoretical to be practical.


RE: der
By HrilL on 1/19/2009 11:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the same thing. I don't think Firefox, chrome, Safari, or Opera can even be gotten at stores. Not once have I ever seen one. While people did mention the windows ftp program could be used to get it. Get a clue people that would be next on the chopping block if this gets passed and then there would be no option what so ever. If they do end up forcing M$ to take out IE I'd love to see the backlash from end users that now have no way to get on the internet at all.


Why is the article showing EU as the highwayman?
By Calin on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: Why is the article showing EU as the highwayman?
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 11:08:45 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I am tired of all this "EU is a thief" articles.
I think there are a lot of people who think that the EU's positions in these matters are pretty unreasonable. It also of course raises feelings of nationalism, since the EU seems to be mainly targeting American tech companies.


By Frallan on 1/19/2009 11:16:38 AM , Rating: 3
Tom - I guess U think it is unreasoneble. But that is with your perspective. The rules are different on this side of the pond and it is not about America bashing as many here sugests its about following the rules or getting the heck out of the playing ground.

That said i refer to the post I just made where i said I think this is going to far.

/Fredrik


RE: Why is the article showing EU as the highwayman?
By jhb116 on 1/19/2009 12:00:36 PM , Rating: 3
Fredrik,

Although I appreciate your moderate position on the issue - I think most people are seeing a multitude of facts that weigh against the EU on this one:
1. This is just the latest in a # of EU lawsuits against M$
2. EU has fined M$ for over a billion dollars
3. IE's market share has been declining for sometime now
4. The Web is so important - an OS has to come with SOMETHING to browse the Web
5. How do you get the other browsers without IE?
6. (I think the most important) What damages could have possibly been done when browsers have been free for over a decade now???

I'd like to foot stomp the last point a bit - usually you need two fundamental items to sue - wrongdoing and damages as a result of the wrongdoing. I think most today would argue that M$ has done wrongdoing (probably still is) but most would probably not argue that bundling a browser is wrongdoing. As far as damages - maybe I'm blind but I haven't seen a browser on sale since the 90's so it is really hard to see any significant damages here as well.

Lets face it - I think a lot more people would be PO'd if M$ didn't bundle the browser and you'd have to go buy something else to make it work....


By jhb116 on 1/19/2009 12:01:41 PM , Rating: 2
BTW - I posted this from Firefox. :)


By BZDTemp on 1/19/2009 1:24:30 PM , Rating: 1
Guess who killed the browser market. Microsoft did and they uses their OS to do it.

Look up Netscape and Microsoft on Wiki and you will see a story of 20 US states going after Microsoft. Something which Bush put to an end so Microsoft got of real easy.


RE: Why is the article showing EU as the highwayman?
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:10:09 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure why you're advocating the positions of companies like Netscape/AOL, etc. The net result of Microsoft's catalyst is that browsers are free for all consumers. That is a good thing, IMO.

Think about it - companies investing millions of dollars to compete in the browser market - and then giving them away for free. If Microsoft didn't give away IE, then maybe we'd all be buying our browsers now.


By Denithor on 1/19/2009 9:55:10 PM , Rating: 2
Great - yet another thing we'd have to spend money on. But I guess that would give the EU another product to apply VAT to, wouldn't it?


By kelmon on 1/20/2009 5:58:38 AM , Rating: 2
Well said.

It should also be noted that the EU is not "US bashing" but those are the only stories that seem to get reported. The following summary was kindly posted in the discussion of the subject by Xander on Engadget yesterday:

Year Undertaking** Case Amount in €*
2008 Saint Gobain Car glass 896.000.000
2007 ThyssenKrupp Elevators and escalators 479.669.850
2001 F. Hoffmann-La Roche AG Vitamins 462.000.000
2007 Siemens AG Gas insulated switchgear 396.562.500
2008 Pilkington Car glass 370.000.000
2008 Sasol Ltd Candle waxes 318.200.000
2006 Eni SpA Synthetic rubber 272.250.000
2002 Lafarge SA Plasterboard 249.600.000
2001 BASF AG Vitamins 236.845.000
2007 Otis Elevators and escalators 224.932.950

Source: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/statistics...

The EU is an "equal opportunities finer" and tends to mostly target EU companies. I'm perfectly happy for them to bash anyone when they step out of line, and Microsoft has been out of line for some time when it comes to their browser.


By bighairycamel on 1/19/2009 11:39:11 AM , Rating: 3
Yes because a software with a 59.5% market share which is consistantly declining is sooooo anti-competitive just because it's bundled with their OS </sarcasm>. Competition obviously exists no matter what the EU thinks about Microsoft; and the sooner they get this through their skulls the less they'll look like theifs.

So I guess they should file suit against Sony too cause they bundle the PS3 with a sony controller which most likely holds a huge market share despite the other third party controller manufactures. Then they'll have to nail MS again cause they bundle the 360 with a MS controller!?!


RE: Why is the article showing EU as the highwayman?
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:29:31 PM , Rating: 3
You're right about that - it does seem a bit odd for the EU to try to make a case that Microsoft is being anti-competitive when in fact their market share is declining - especially in Europe.

If Microsoft is trying to be anti-competitive, then they are obviously failing, and in that case, why does the EU feel that action is necessary?

It makes no sense to me.


By cbf on 1/21/2009 12:23:19 AM , Rating: 2
Come now. This is the same EU that fined Microsoft for including a Media Player with Windows. We all know what that led to -- a company that has completely dominated the market for selling online music.

Except, oops, that company isn't Microsoft.

But The Media Player was unfair competition...

I'm sooo confused...


This just in.....
By 306maxi on 1/19/2009 10:47:20 AM , Rating: 4
EU to sue car manufacturers for bundling of tyres and wheels on new cars. More to follow as soon as more information comes in....




RE: This just in.....
By drzoo2 on 1/19/2009 12:45:12 PM , Rating: 2
Last time I checked GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda...ect. don't make the "Tyres" they bundle with the cars they sell. They are supplied by third party companies like Goodyear and such. You got modded to a 4 for that?

z


RE: This just in.....
By Gzus666 on 1/19/2009 12:53:27 PM , Rating: 2
Speaking of posting everything the other was thinking...ha.

Voters on this site are sometimes a strange bunch, but yes, he used a poor analogy. Don't worry though, someone else did too by saying Red Hat bundles Firefox with their OS, even though they don't make Firefox...


RE: This just in.....
By Oregonian2 on 1/19/2009 5:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
I see what you say, but thinking about it, I'm not sure if it matters that Firefox is from a third party. If Microsoft bundled Firefox with every box of Windows, I don't think it would matter to the other browser vendors -- only that it wasn't theirs.

The only "acceptable" (to that way of thinking) method is to include *nothing* (which can make for some interesting catch-22 problems for all vendors).


RE: This just in.....
By The Irish Patient on 1/19/2009 5:23:29 PM , Rating: 2
I was thinking along the same lines. Shouldn't the EU sue Firefox for offering a better browser for free? If anything cuts into Opera's ability to sell its product in a competitive marketplace, it would have to be a free download of Firefox.


RE: This just in.....
By jhb116 on 1/20/2009 12:05:51 AM , Rating: 2
Ok if that doesn't work for you how about:

EU sues car manufacturers for bundling the steering wheel, seats and seat belts......


RE: This just in.....
By drzoo2 on 1/20/2009 1:00:06 AM , Rating: 2
Yep still doesn't work. All of those are made by third parties.


The EU commission are greedy idiots
By lemonadesoda on 1/19/2009 11:37:21 AM , Rating: 2
Some complaints by the EU may be justified, but this is plain ridiculous. Clearly motivated by lawyers and politicians trying to get big dollar to fund their departments through fining. And clearly also have no common sense either.

IMAGINE THIS: NO IE IN WINDOWS. NO INTERNET ACCESS BY DEFAULT!

Just how the hell would anyone access and download ANY alternative without an inbuilt web-browser? IDIOTS! FOOLS! INCOMPETANTS! LES CONS!

I know... the EU coommission should be FORCED to supply an alternative opensource EU approved browser on free diskettes to anyone that asks and installed by a suited EU official driving a car that has been made by a company subsidised directly or indirectly through EU bail out funds.

The EU commission has just got beaurocratically too big. I hope this recession FORCES the EU commission to SHRINK in size by DOUBLE the economy shrink. Why on earth are EU taxpayers having to over-pay their huge salaries and benefits for this kind of nonsense.

I vote EU commission should be forced to implement six sigma lean. And that means 80% of them paper pushers should be O.U.T.

And good riddance.




RE: The EU commission are greedy idiots
By Gzus666 on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: The EU commission are greedy idiots
By drzoo2 on 1/19/2009 12:31:13 PM , Rating: 2
gzus.......
Every time I find a post worth relying to, I find your name under it and I don't have to post. You scare me......are you my lost twin?

z


By Gzus666 on 1/19/2009 12:49:50 PM , Rating: 2
It's possible, we should narrow it down by finding out if one of us is evil and the other is good, cause we know all twins have one good and one evil.


RE: The EU commission are greedy idiots
By bobsmith1492 on 1/19/2009 12:59:25 PM , Rating: 2
You still need an FTP client...


RE: The EU commission are greedy idiots
By Solandri on 1/19/2009 1:38:03 PM , Rating: 2
Windows comes with a basic one.


RE: The EU commission are greedy idiots
By TomZ on 1/19/2009 2:14:07 PM , Rating: 2
Following EU logic, the FTP client should also be removed from Windows, since it is anti-competitive. After all, there are individuals and companies out there trying to give away their FTP clients.


By Oregonian2 on 1/19/2009 5:05:57 PM , Rating: 2
Took the words right out of my mouth!


Problem not bundling, problem is IE
By riskable on 1/19/2009 11:54:00 AM , Rating: 4
Bundling a web browser with your OS: Not really a big deal.
Bundling an anti-competitive web browser with your OS: A big problem.

The complaint to the EU from Opera is a lot more nuanced than this article makes it out to be. Opera's complaint is mostly about the fact that Internet Explorer intentionally does not conform to web standards and--more specifically--implements it's own incompatible extensions to HTML, DOM, etc. So you can make a web page that will ONLY work in IE and WILL NOT WORK in anything else.

A monopoly inherently should not be allowed to make and forcibly bundle products that lock people in to their monopoly. Internet Explorer was designed from the get-go for precisely this purpose. If you make a product that fails to conform to standards (de facto or the open kind) it will probably fail--unless you're a monopoly and can make it an inconvenience to use anything else. In this way, bundling IE *is* an anti-competitive move and it absolutely should be stopped.

The fix to the problem isn't to force Microsoft to stop bundling a web browser with their OS. The fix is to force Microsoft to make a web browser that *only* conforms to open standards.

-Riskable
http://riskable.com
"When a government fails to police monopolies it is enabling tyranny."




RE: Problem not bundling, problem is IE
By rcc on 1/19/2009 12:42:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"When a government fails to police monopolies it is enabling tyranny."


And when a government polices and commands everything, it is being tyranny.


RE: Problem not bundling, problem is IE
By nycromes on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: Problem not bundling, problem is IE
By riskable on 1/19/2009 4:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
"Nothing at all forces people to only use IE or even use IE at all."

Um... You need a reality check. Last time I looked just about every single Microsoft product (Sharepoint comes to mind) REQUIRES IE (and usually Windows) to function properly.

...so if some group inside your organization decides to use a Microsoft product (e.g. Sharepoint) for *anything* that means *every single employee* that needs to access that service MUST be running IE. Thus; the monopoly continues.

No one may have forced people to start using Microsoft's products before they were locked in a decade ago but now that the lock-in has taken hold it is nearly impossible to get out of it. They have a monopoly and it needs to be policed to prevent abuse.

Internet Explorer is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Microsoft's anti-competitive practices. Remember: Microsoft isn't some random company, they're a CONVICTED MONOPOLIST.

-Riskable
http://riskable.com
"When an entity opposes the public disclosure of security vulnerabilities we must carefully examine their motivation: Do they fear that someone might take advantage of the vulnerability or do they fear that someone might fix it?"


By TomZ on 1/19/2009 4:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Um... You need a reality check. Last time I looked just about every single Microsoft product (Sharepoint comes to mind) REQUIRES IE (and usually Windows) to function properly.
Too bad your entire argument rests on that incorrect assumption.

In reality, FireFox and SharePoint do work together. It's true you don't get as good of an experience when you use IE - but they are quite usable together.

In fact, there are many public-facing web sites using SharePoint today. And they seem to work just fine with SharePoint.

And it shouldn't come as any surprise that two software products from the same company integrate best with one another. That is the NORM in the industry.

You might as well complain that SharePoint only runs on IIS. At least that would be correct.

In any case, enjoy your conspiracy theories. I realize that the space you play in is far removed from reality.


By kelmon on 1/20/2009 6:47:28 AM , Rating: 2
Well, you can't blame people for modding you down. I'm sorry but Microsoft created a perfect Catch-22 scenario by having IE incorrectly implement HTML rendering and then bundling it with every installation of Windows. The fact of the matter is that IE is almost always the business standard and therefore business web applications are written for IE, but then users can't switch to another browser because then the web applications won't work properly.

Until IE is fully standards-compliant like pretty much every other browser this issue will not go away and developers will be forced to either support IE only or spent unnecessary time supporting both IE and other browsers. Just think how much money IE actually costs the economy.

I don't know whether Microsoft intentionally did this but it is undeniable that they have benefited from it and there is no incentive for them to change, particularly with the continuing trend to provide services "in the cloud". If you don't need IE to access these cloud services, do you still need Windows? Tying the World Wide Web to Windows works very nicely for Microsoft.


EU
By bengle14939 on 1/19/2009 11:54:57 AM , Rating: 2
I think the EU is attempting to thwart our successes (and the rewards of those successes) to make up for a lack of Eurpean innovations and advances. Just look at the stark difference in the number of new patents filed each year in the US (and Japan) vs. Europe in general.

Come on guys, get with the times. Maybe you should blame it on those 32 hour work weeks that are common place over there.




RE: EU
By BZDTemp on 1/19/2009 1:15:56 PM , Rating: 2
LOL. Counting patents is a bad way to measure success as there are different traditions about patenting.

I don't want to start a pissing contest but since you mention the 32 hours let me get a little into that. It's not 32 hours but 37 however for many that included payed lunch time so you're that far off. Also we get 5-6 weeks payed vacation, many get 12 months of maternity leave (fully payed). Education and medical is free and a semi-decent pension is also included.

The precise figures of wages and so change a little depending on where you live in the EU but I looked up what a starter job at McDonalds will bring an 18 year old. It pays $18.84 an hour, plus there is the payed vacation and working after office hours or during the weekend pays extra. There are also a pension plan on top and so on.

I'm sorry but I think you got it wrong when you decided the EU is after your succes :-)

There is no question that if you're rich then the US is a great place but if you're not then perhaps not so much and you better not be poor. With few exception due to the old east-block countries still catching up we don't have people living in trailer parks or on the streets. If you loose your job it does not mean you kids won't go to college or that medical treatment is gonna be problem.


RE: EU
By kyleb2112 on 1/20/2009 4:12:10 AM , Rating: 2
I lived in England for several years. Their idea of taking care of people is to house huge segments of their population in council estates living just comfortably enough to never change their situation. They don't starve, but nor do they ever "hit bottom" or are forced to make the changes. If you set out to design a system for wasting people's lives you couldn't do much better than the British concept of "charity". If the rest of the EU is anything like that, I'll take the risk plus upward mobility of the US system any day.


RE: EU
By axias41 on 1/19/2009 4:04:46 PM , Rating: 2
Last week I worked 47 hours. And we are going through a big crysis...


RE: EU
By Guttersnipe on 1/19/2009 4:57:50 PM , Rating: 2
bingo, boycott eu exports.

seriously they are just bitter they have no google, no microsoft, no apple.

and now they strike back with stupidly vindictive fines for offering consumers more product for their money. its a ridiculous situation. what next? ms calculator is destroying the market for after market calculator software?


Anticompetitive?
By omnicronx on 1/19/2009 12:01:28 PM , Rating: 2
How can you be anti competitive if you only have 60% the market. Furthermore, the EU wants to consider browsers separate from the OS in terms of being products, yet they are obviously including Windows dominance in their case vs Microsoft and IE. 60% market share is not a monopoly, and the EU have made it clear by the fact they are calling this anti competitive behavior that IE is a separate product from windows, and thus should be treated as such.

Both the US and the EU have forced Microsoft to make their OS and their browser two different entities, this ruling is just plain unfair, and I really hope we start imposing some outrageous and ridiculous rulings vs European business's that operate in the west, and see how they like it.




RE: Anticompetitive?
By LumbergTech on 1/19/2009 12:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
i'd trade for 32 hour work weeks in a heart beat.....people have families too you know..im not saying that people shouldnt be able to work more optionally..I just think that a LIVING wage should be earnable at 32 hours a week.


RE: Anticompetitive?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/19/2009 2:41:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I just think that a LIVING wage should be earnable at 32 hours a week.

People like me don't think that, and are willing to work 40 hours for a living wage, over your 32 hours. I just stole your job because I do more work for the same pay. Now what are you going to do? Nothing. This is why the work weeks get longer, not shorter.

Welcome to American industry. I know Europe has all sorts of laws to protect you from such things, but its just hurting companies from being more competitive. I work on average 50-55 hours per week on a 40 hour per week salary. Why? Because I can, and because its not a a problem for me. I'm not always in the office more than 40 hours, but I am doing work in one form or another.


RE: Anticompetitive?
By dj LiTh on 1/20/2009 5:23:26 AM , Rating: 2
Yes but the rest of us have lives. (runs and ducks)


RE: Anticompetitive?
By BZDTemp on 1/19/2009 1:28:32 PM , Rating: 2
It is not about the 60% market share IE has, apart from the fact that many places say 70%+. It is about Microsoft using they OS dominance to control other markets and in this case the browser market.


Yay!
By excrucio on 1/19/2009 10:41:51 AM , Rating: 2
Hey EU you can use the money for the falling economy!..

Lawsuits for the win!




RE: Yay!
By FITCamaro on 1/19/2009 11:07:17 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah I basically think it went like this.

"Hey our tax revenues are falling because of the bad economy. We won't be able to pay for all our socialist programs."

"Well any thoughts on how we can get some more money."

"......"

"......"

"...WAIT! I know! Sue Microsoft again!"

"Genius".


RE: Yay!
By Motley on 1/19/2009 4:06:33 PM , Rating: 1
Rating: 6


Better Late Than Never
By kelmon on 1/20/2009 4:09:14 AM , Rating: 2
Well, as per usual, all the nitwits are out in force again and completely misunderstanding the point of this potential case.

The problem is not that Microsoft is BUNDLING a browser with their OS but rather that they are TYING their OS to a browser. To make matters worse they are tying Windows to a NON-STANDARDS COMPLIANT browser that effectively creates a 2-tier Internet, particularly as far as corporate web applications are concerned. There are loads of corporate web applications that depend on IE to function and that is clearly a barrier to competition from the likes of Opera. Effectively, Microsoft has created a Catch-22 scenario: businesses won't switch to other browsers because their web applications won't work any more and the authors of those applications won't write them for other browsers because all their customers use IE...

I confess that this situation is improving (still waiting to see what IE8 will really be like) but the EU is doing the right thing by stopping Microsoft from effectively creating a proprietary World Wide Web. Mind you, this action should have been taken years ago when IE started to take hold of the market.

Honestly, those people who just revert to talking about Apple bundling Safari with OS X or getting Microsoft to remove the likes of Notepad from Windows need a smack around the head...




RE: Better Late Than Never
By cbf on 1/21/2009 12:42:43 AM , Rating: 2
That might have been an interesting case had it been filed in 1998, but I'll have to agree with other posters here -- there has to be some sort of statute of limitations, especially considering that the market has largely reacted to correct whatever influence Microsoft obtained in this fashion. (I.e. now that IE has far less than 90% market share worldwide, there are almost no public web sites left that only render correctly in IE. Presumably corporate developers made an informed choice if they really built IE-specific in-house applications.)

Also, to repeat my earlier post -- there are no "standards" for web browsers -- only W3C "recommendations". Microsoft's compliance with relevant recommendations (i.e. those are actually finalized) is fairly good considering how web browsers evolved (Netscape didn't wait for standards to be approved before hacking features in, and neither did Microsoft), and has gotten better over time. IE8 promises to continue this trend.

In short -- the situation has largely and is largely resolving itself, which I think serves to justify the reaction of people who say that this just seems like an excuse for the EU to fine Microsoft.


RE: Better Late Than Never
By kelmon on 1/21/2009 6:54:25 AM , Rating: 2
I agree that this is the case with the public World Wide Web but business applications continue to be IE-only, and there is no good reason why that should be the case. While this case should have been filed years ago, it's better late than never and I have absolutely no qualms about Microsoft being punished for making web application designer's lives a misery.

I disagree that there are no standards. These are published and available from the likes of the W3C. While there are definitely differences in the way that they have been implemented by the various rendering engines, they're mostly slight differences unlike IE, which tends to be a country mile off. IE8 should help but the "backwards compatibility" is hindering rather than helping the situation.

Still, it continues to amaze me that people are defending Microsoft rather than dancing a jig. IE has been a bane on the Internet for so long and now its finally getting its comeuppance.


RE: Better Late Than Never
By cbf on 1/21/2009 11:20:06 PM , Rating: 2
By "business applications" I presume you refer to in-house developed applications. I really don't see how one can make an anti-trust claim about in-house corporate developers who choose to use the more proprietary aspects of IE. That would be akin to suing Microsoft because the "proprietary" Win32 API was "bundled" with Windows.

As for "standards" from the "likes of the W3C". The W3C publishes "recommendations", and there's a reason why they're called that. If the member companies believed they were legally enforceable standards (as for example, ISO or ITU-T (nee CCITT) standards often are in Europe), the W3C would need to operate under a much different process. For that reason, a legal case against Microsoft for not following "standards" that aren't legal standards would be a non-starter (and I suspect Tim Berners-Lee would strongly oppose such an action).

I also don't believe that the IE's implementation of relevant W3C recommendations is nearly as far off as you state, and is getting better -- see http://www.webstandards.org/2007/12/19/ie8-passes-... for example.


Knew this lawsuit would be coming
By Scott66 on 1/19/2009 10:46:39 AM , Rating: 1
IE is an integral part of the OS and Microsoft won't be able to argue differently. Until a user does not need IE to do a Microsoft Update, MS will be sued.




By TheDoc9 on 1/19/2009 10:56:12 AM , Rating: 2
Users haven't needed IE for windows update for many years. xp and vista can both be updated without a browser if needed via the automatic update software.