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Toyota Prius

Honda Civic Hybrid
Hybrids are the big losers with the EPA's new testing

DailyTech reported in mid-December that the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has revised its testing procedures to give buyers a more realistic estimate of fuel economy figures for cars, trucks and SUVs. The EPA has now posted a tool on its website that lets you compare the "old" EPA ratings of your vehicle with the new ratings based on revised testing procedures.

The new testing methodology takes into account higher freeway speeds, more aggressive driving behavior, A/C usage and the effects of traffic jams on fuel economy. The EPA testing procedures were last updated back in 1984.

Hybrids take the biggest hit with the new 2008 model year EPA changes. The Toyota Prius, Toyota Camry Hybrid and Honda Civic Hybrid drop from 60/51 (city/highway), 40/38 and 49/55 to 48/45, 33/34 and 40/45 respectively. That's a pretty tough pill to swallow for potential hybrid buyers.

Conventional gasoline vehicles can't escape the wrath of the EPA either with the new 2008 guidelines. Autoblog notes that of the 23 vehicles General Motors touts in TV advertising that achieve 30MPG or better on the highway, 14 fail with the new EPA testing.

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Good
By Brainonska511 on 2/24/2007 12:06:05 AM , Rating: 5
Good to see that we will start to see some reality in mileage numbers instead of these fantasy numbers that are currently on vehicles.




RE: Good
By jondevelops on 2/24/2007 12:17:48 AM , Rating: 2
Can anyone explain to me why the hybrids look so ugly. If they really want to help the environment, at least make buyers feel good about it. Especially with the heavy price tag. These cars don't even appeal to my liking. The only hybrid with some taste is one of the Scions by Toyota.

Otherwise I would think they make them ugly because gas companies pay them to.


RE: Good
By Brainonska511 on 2/24/2007 12:22:16 AM , Rating: 2
They make them so ugly so people can stand out when they drive their hybrid cars, spreading smug wherever they go.


RE: Good
By Milliamp on 2/24/2007 3:54:28 AM , Rating: 5
Every time I see hybrid car people I am reminded of this South Park clip: http://thatvideosite.com/video/2052


RE: Good
By WhipperSnapper on 2/25/2007 3:14:20 AM , Rating: 2
SMUG! ROFL! I saw that South Park episode too...the one where the hybrid owners were so smug they loved the smell of their own farts. The smug from the hybrids was going to collide with a smug cloud from George Clooney at the Oscars and cause an environmental disaster.


RE: Good
By FITCamaro on 2/24/2007 12:46:47 AM , Rating: 5
Scions aren't hybrids.


RE: Good
By Trippytiger on 2/24/2007 1:13:08 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, the only hybrid car on the market that exists only as a hybrid is the Prius (which I think looks pretty nice, actually). All of the others available began life as cars with conventional ICE-only drivetrains, so what you should be asking is why modern cars look so ugly.

I don't have any particular complaints about them myself, though.


RE: Good
By Kuroyama on 2/24/2007 2:08:07 AM , Rating: 3
The Prius and Insight are the only distinctive looking ones and it is allegedly for aerodynamics. If you don't mind losing a few mpg then get a "normal" looking hybrid like the Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander, Civic, Accord, Camry, and a few Lexus models.


RE: Good
By Milliamp on 2/24/2007 4:03:16 AM , Rating: 3
Right, there is a hybrid badge on the car but most of the fuel savings come from other design decisions like low vehicle weight, low coefficient drag, smooth tires etc.

People tend to believe aerodynamics just means making the front end pointy, but better methods have shown that a sudden drop off in the back (like a van) creates a low pressure system behind the vehicle which creates suction slowing it down. This is why some of the cars designed for super efficient MPG have point back ends as well (and consequently people consider them ugly).

The hybrid badge actually stuck to the car is actually a little bit like stone soup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_soup).

The truth is that if you made many of the same design decisions in a small gas powered car that the MPG estimates would not be that different from a Prius, and would be significantly cheaper.

For these reasons I believe one of the larger reason people buy hybrids is because they want the hybrid badge. (see South Park video linked above for that :)


RE: Good
By mjrpes3 on 2/24/2007 4:16:42 PM , Rating: 1
Where are you getting this information from?

I looked at the honda civic, hybrid and non-hybrid. I wasn't able to find a site that compares the exterior and aerodynamics of both, yet viewed side by side they both have the same short hood, sloping front, and curved back. Truthfully, I can't tell a difference between them.

Yet there is a 13 MPG difference between the non-hybrid (29 MPG) and the hybrid (42 MPG). This contradicts what you are saying... unless you think 13MPG is insignificant.


RE: Good
By Milliamp on 2/24/2007 6:16:25 PM , Rating: 5
The Civic makes a good case for Hybrid, but the Hybrid has a combined (gas/electric) HP of 100, but you are not usually going to be running both engines. The gas powered civic is 130 HP with just the one engine. They have also shaved some corners to reduce the weight of the hybrid to make room for the added weight of the batteries and electric motor/components. Things like special light weight alloy wheels not seen on the gas version. (try hitting a pot hole with those).

Lets look at another example though. Toyota Prius vs Yarus. Both vehicles are about the same size. The Yaris costs about $12,000 compared to $23,000 for the Prius and I have read that Toyota is selling the Prius at cost to get the product on the market. Toyota typically makes about $2,000 per vehicle, so the actual cost of the Prius should be closer to $25,000.

So we have 2 cars similar in size and features but the one with the hybrid drive train costs almost another ~$12,000 to make.

EPA gives the 2 cars 32 and 46 MPG, which looks good at first for the Prius, but the user submitted “real world” results on the site paint a more dire picture of the Hybrid giving them 36.1 and 43.6, or a difference of 7.5 MPG for the extra ~$12,000.

That extra 7.5 MPG means that at $2.50/gallon, if you drive 500,000 miles you will save about $2,500 in gas with the Prius. This is also overlooking the more expensive repair/replacement costs with the hybrid.

Most people already agree that the reason to buy a hybrid is not long term costs savings, but even the argument that using $2,500 worth of less gas over the lifetime of the vehicle is good for the environment is partially offset by the extra pollution created manufacturing the car or disposal of all the batteries.

I still stand by my original statement that the best reason to drive a hybrid is to snub your nose at other people like the south park vid: http://thatvideosite.com/video/2052


RE: Good
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 2/24/2007 6:53:54 PM , Rating: 2
To be fair, the Prius is closer in size (passenger space, trunk room) to a Camry than it is to a Yaris.


RE: Good
By Kuroyama on 2/25/2007 7:49:50 PM , Rating: 2
While the South Park clip is admittedly funny, you are strongly overstating the rest of the case.

As mentioned by Brandon, the Prius and Yaris are not at all similar sizes. If you bothered to go to Toyota's web site you would find that the Prius has 143hp (gas+electric), weighs 2932 lb, and has a volume of 96.2 cubic feet, whereas the Yaris hatchback has 106hp, weighs 2300 lb, and has a volume of 84.6 cubic feet. So, the Prius has more hp, weighs significantly more, and is much larger inside, and yet if we look at the new and improved EPA ratings it still gets 48/45 city/hwy mpg vs. 29/35 for the Yaris automatic.

So, tell me again how the Yaris and Prius are comparable?


RE: Good
By nglessner on 3/2/2007 2:29:04 PM , Rating: 2
How in the heck do these posts get rated?? The parent spouts a few numbers, most of which are very incorrect, and gets a rating of 5. Where the grandparent gives an honest comparison (albeit no numbers) and gets a rating of 1.

Something is wrong with the rating system. To me that's scary, as a person who usually will read only the highest rated posts, in this case i would have been completely mis-informed.


RE: Good
By ElJefe69 on 2/25/2007 12:34:09 AM , Rating: 1
yeah. well it is like those people who were losers all their life and now have cash. they wear clothes that show they are ugly yetthey cost a lot. it is like the pseudo-intellectual thing. black horn rimmed glasses, big brown shoes, dumb sideburns, you know.

hybrid people enjoy feeling above other "common" folk.

jeez. if they only knew the severe waste of the environment and polution that it took to create a hybrid. a real environmentalist would modify a 1.6 litre 1980's compact car. it was already built so no detriment to the environment in terms of manufacturing and development. They get better gas mileage than current cars too. I always wondered what could be done to clean up a 80's VW rabbit diesal car. they got way over 45 miles per gallon in traffic.


RE: Good
By theapparition on 2/25/2007 10:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
For the Prius, at least, styling took a back seat to aerodymanics (<--yes, even though it looks like a egg with wheels). If anyone remembers GM's EV1, it looked very similar. It's also no coincidence that GM and Toyota have a partnership to share hybrid and electric vehicule technology.


RE: Good
By isaacmacdonald on 2/24/2007 12:30:44 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. In my experience the city estimates have been particularly generous, and the HWY ratings inaccurate. For example, my 06' XB has a lawn mower engine, and only weighs about 15 lbs, yet consistently gets 27 mpg around town (EPA rating: 30). I have driven it like a grandma just for the purposes of improving mileage and it stays virtually the same. On the other hand, on the highway, even at high speeds it gets around 38mpg (EPA rating: 32). My last car (a Chrysler) performed similarly in respect to EPA estimates.

I'm pleased that they've decided to improve their methodology, though there's still some question in my mind about applicability of their HWY ratings.


RE: Good
By Runiteshark on 2/24/2007 6:05:16 AM , Rating: 4
I dont understand, I have a 2005 Chevy Malibu, and I constantly get about 32 miles to the gallon. With a headwind only about 30, but in the begenning miles (low 10ks) I had all the way up to 37 miles.

I think that some of these cars can really do what they claim, if people don't drive like total idiots and slam their pedals down to be like all the cool kids with the neon lights. Most drivers these days don't really account for their driving using up gas, and this is why some of them have such horrible real "efficiency". And some can argue against my point, but we've all seen the weaving idiot that speeds up slows down and tries to win the race.

I find it hard to believe that my Chevy Malibu, which is V6 and has pretty decent power, can get higher milage to a normal driving hybrid user.


RE: Good
By Davelo on 2/25/2007 12:54:20 PM , Rating: 2
Runiteshark, you are exactly correct. What's happened is the EPA has finally caved in and admitted that most drivers in the USA are morons. I drive my vehicle with common sense and I always did beat the old EPA rating.


RE: Good
By The Boston Dangler on 2/24/2007 2:34:03 AM , Rating: 2
Not only that, but we need to do away with averaging mileage across a product family. Example: Small trucks built on car chassis allow huge SUV's to meet emissions and economy standards.