DailyTech - EBay, Craigslist Finally Headed to Court

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Internet EBay, Craigslist Finally Headed to Court
Shane McGlaun (Blog) - December 3, 2009 11:05 AM

34 comment(s) - last by felicia151.. on Dec 6 at 7:24 PM

Trial set to start Monday in Delaware

Things between eBay and Craigslist have been strained since 2008 when both firms sued each other for various offenses. Since then, the trial has been delayed from entering a courtroom on two separate occasions.

The suits originally started in May 2008 when eBay sued Craigslist alleging that Craig Newmark and James Buckmaster initiated back room dealings that resulted in the dilution of eBay's share of Craigslist from 28.4% to a bit under 25%. The under 25% ownership mark was key because that means that eBay lost its seat on the Craigslist board of directors.

Craigslist filed its own suit against eBay later the same month alleging that eBay had used its seat on the Craigslist board to steal trade secrets that eBay then used to launch a competitive service called Kijiji. After the delays, it looks as that eBay will finally get its date in court as the suit is set to go to trial in Delaware next Monday.

EBay has stated that it will produce a shareholder agreement in court that clearly outlines each party's rights and responsibilities under the agreement. EBay Deputy General Counsel Mary Hauser said, "We are very confident we acted properly throughout the relationship. We were open and honest regarding what we were doing and our intentions."

Craigslist paints eBay in a very negative light in pretrial briefs stating that eBay has "unclean hands" and that the auction giant merely sought to use its position to gain intelligence to launch a competitive offering. Craigslist also alleges that eBay purchased ads using Craigslist's name, but the ads led those who clicked to eBay or Kijiji.

Current eBay CEO John Donahoe says that the trial is merely to determine if eBay owns 25% or 28% of Craigslist. Donahoe is not expected to testify in the trial. Former CEO of eBay Meg Whitman was at the helm during the incidents in the suit.

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Ugh

By Motoman on 12/3/2009 11:33:43 AM , Rating: 5

eBay/PayPal = one of the most evil organizations in the world.

Craigslist = home of the skeevy

How I long for the day that somebody who sucks considerably less will open an auction site...Google, Amazon, somebody...anybody. All the other auction sites on the net are pure fail - no buyers at all.

RE: Ugh

By MrBlastman on 12/3/2009 12:00:02 PM , Rating: 4

Whoa, now I'll agree with you on PayPal for sure. I love how they BEG me every time I log in to connect my bank account to them. I laugh every time I see this.

No way I will ever connect my liquid assets to PayPal. It will always be credit only.

Ebay though, I partially agree with. They have done some really stupid things for sure in the past few years--especially to the sellers.

However, without Ebay, I would not have been able to purchase several "niche" things from them in recent years. I would never have been able to buy my Roland MT-32 which just came in the mail last week without them... at least, not easily. Well, easily is relative, it took a year and a half worth of bidding in order to finally win one in auction but that was simply because I was being cheap and constanly out-bid by people who bought them and tried to resell them with Buy Now! for significantly more (and at ridiculous prices).

I routinely use Ebay to try and find used or older items that I otherwise wouldn't be able to find locally unless I spent weeks scouring pawn shops, used stores etc.

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RE: Ugh

By Shark Tek on 12/3/2009 12:12:57 PM , Rating: 2

You can use an online account of your own, just do it the right way.

For online purchases I had an account for only that purpose. Is always on $0 and when I buy something I transfer the exact amount.

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RE: Ugh

By MrBlastman on 12/3/2009 12:32:34 PM , Rating: 5

Too much work. :)

I'd rather just use a credit card through paypal (if I have to use paypal).

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RE: Ugh

By marvdmartian on 12/4/2009 9:21:42 AM , Rating: 2

That's what I did, recently. The account is tied to my main checking account, but only in a way that I can transfer funds to/from one account to the other. Because of that, I can put the funds in that I need, within minutes, and keep that account balance low. And since it's tied to my main account, which I have direct deposit (resulting in no monthly fees), that also means I don't get stuck with a monthly fee on the smaller account, even though it carries next to no balance.

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RE: Ugh

By ChrisHF on 12/3/2009 12:21:24 PM , Rating: 2

"However, without Ebay, I would not have been able to purchase several "niche" things..."

Probably not true. You would have simply purchased them in some other way. eBay's dominance has prevented something better from coming along.

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RE: Ugh

By MrBlastman on 12/3/2009 12:33:58 PM , Rating: 2

Well, there is Craigslist. I've never been able to find any of the niche items I really want through them, well, aside from the 52-inch Fresnel Lens that can be used as a sidewalk melter. >:)

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RE: Ugh

By kmmatney on 12/4/2009 2:57:29 AM , Rating: 2

On the whole Ebay is not too bad. I don't like all the nickel and diming they do, but on the whole I've sold a LOT of items that I would otherwise have away. The ability to reach out to the entire world is pretty amazing. I hd several items which I was about to throw away. There were no similar items on Ebay, and I wasn't sure I could sell them for anyting. I was able to make several hundred dollars, with most of the bnuyers being in Europe - I would have never guessed. Shipping was easy and everything worked out well - could have never done that without Ebay, and the global reach it has. Basically its an online garage sale.

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RE: Ugh

By The0ne on 12/4/2009 9:58:30 AM , Rating: 2

Can't agree with you more on the ebay/pappal thing. What a scam for people who can take advantage of it. There are so many in-between companies that service to both of them and if there is any fraud on your end you ain't getting jack sht. Because these companies will ultimately claim they are just "processing" and have nothing to do with the fraud. Yea right :)

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RE: Ugh

By Jalek on 12/3/2009 1:00:53 PM , Rating: 3

Amazon and Yahoo have already done the auction thing, they also had no buyers and lost money.

Where there used to be hundreds of active sites and indexes tracking multiples, eBay continues to gain market share. State and federal agencies are shutting down their own and moving to eBay as well. I don't think anyone else wants to take on the losses of a barren auction site again, which is unfortunate. I used to try using the independents, but I found more scammers on those.

I think eBay's biggest threat currently is just eBay making some enormous blunder, competition doesn't seem to be there. They've had several seller revolts, but they're still the only viable game in town.

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RE: Ugh

By Motoman on 12/3/2009 1:21:01 PM , Rating: 1

That's because they have a monopoly on buyers. From a buyer standpoint, eBay is fine. And it's the ultimate setup if, as a buyer, you want to scam a seller, because PayPal is all about helping you do that.

The problem is from the standpoint of the seller - eBay/PayPal is absolutely toxic to sellers. Ultimately, you have no choice though, because no other site has any buyers. You could list your stuff on, say, UBid.com - where their fees and policies are rational - but you won't sell anything because they have no buyers.

I still don't understand how it's legal for eBay to REQUIRE all purchases to go through PayPal instead of allowing the official currency of the USA (i.e. cash) or checks or MOs or whatever.

But that's just one of the problems you have with eBay/PayPal.

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RE: Ugh

By sprockkets on 12/3/2009 6:55:09 PM , Rating: 2

You can still use checks. Problem is, just like ebay, nobody want to use it.

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RE: Ugh

By Motoman on 12/3/2009 7:55:23 PM , Rating: 2

No, you can not. Go look.

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RE: Ugh

By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2009 2:17:43 PM , Rating: 1

I don't know who to believe in this story, but I know one thing.

When I click on Ebay I'm presented with a clean and easy to use site. It looks VERY appealing to the eye also. I'm also assured by the many rules and mechanisms in place that make sure I probably won't get ripped off or scammed. The rating system is a great idea. I can see how reputable a seller is based on other buyers feedback. It's an all around good experience.

When I click on Craigslist, I'm presented with the Internet version of a swap meet crashing into a black market. Prostitutes are even allowed to advertise under so call " personal ads ". The listing is a mess. There are NO site graphics, and often no picture of the item is posted. The people use terrible spelling and grammar, often times using FULL caps throughout the entire ad. There are no guarantees, because you have to deal with the person yourself via phone or email. Which, honestly, who want's to do that !? That's what newspaper ads are for. I don't wanna go visit your ass, I want to pay your price and have it shipped to me. Just.. ewww. Do I look 12 to you ? Only idiots go meet a stranger off the 'net.

I always come away from Craigslist feeling like I have contracted some kind form of Internet HIV or herpes. It's an all around dirty website full of shady characters looking to rip you off or, quite literally, fu$# you.

There is only one auction site out there, and that's Ebay. Ebay INVENTED the internet auction. Calling them "evil" is stupid, unless you are one of those people who call anyone who makes a profit evil.

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RE: Ugh

By bighairycamel on 12/3/2009 4:10:16 PM , Rating: 3

Wow quite a narrow minded rant.

I hear craigslist is worse in some areas than others, but where I live it's quite helpful. Sure there are the obvious scams but 99% of the stuff is legit. You might be too young to remember when newspaper classifieds were pages and pages long, but Craigslist is basically a mock of that form. Simple, basic, no flashy graphics or interfaces... just basic details. I have bought and sold things from cars to electronics on the site and never have a had a bad experience communicating with buyers or sellers. Feels exactly like when I used to deal on the newspaper classifieds.

And EBay is evil (as far as I am concerned) because they are double and triple dipping on auction sales.

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RE: Ugh

By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2009 4:20:24 PM , Rating: 2

It's not a rant. It's an opinion, based on facts and my own personal observations.

quote:
And EBay is evil (as far as I am concerned) because they are double and triple dipping on auction sales.

That is the cost of doing business. There is nothing evil or good or any other moral implication involved.

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RE: Ugh

By bighairycamel on 12/3/2009 5:21:03 PM , Rating: 3

That is the cost of doing business.

No not always. More like that's the cost of doing business on Wall Street. They have an obligation to try and keep profits up every year, and that's fine but I disagree with their methods, to a point where I refuse to do business as a seller with them.

They hit you up front to list the item, take a cut when you sell the item, then take a cut when you use paypal which almost all auctions do now. Then start charging for features that give advantages to other sellers like premium listing options. I don't want to have to pay MORE money just to compete. Then finally when all is said and done I am out %15+. I am not saying EBay should be free but the cost structure is purposely confusing so average sellers do not understand exactly how much they are losing when all is said and done. Selling costs are so inflated now that sellers have to mark up their merchandise to make a profit to the point where I can get the same price at Amazon or Newegg.

Evil is probably too strong a word and is thrown around at corporations too often, but I feel EBay is dirty to say the least.

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RE: Ugh

By Reclaimer77 on 12/3/2009 6:01:17 PM , Rating: 2

I think you should make a distinction between sellers and eBay retailers.

There are companies who's entire business exists because of eBay. I find it hard to believe this would be the case if eBay was so terribly oppessive as you make them out to be.

Stop trying to assign all these rediculouse emotions to the situation. Evil, dirty, purposely misleading ? They provide a service, which is damn expensive to run by the way, and assign fees to recover those costs and (gasp) make a profit. That's IT ! There is no conspiracy or plot at play here.

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RE: Ugh

By bighairycamel on 12/3/2009 8:57:32 PM , Rating: 2

Do us all a favor and take your nose squarely out of EBays ass. There is a reason why EBays rep is as terrible as it is, because most companies dont pull the shinanigans that they do.

Retailers or sellers make no difference. How does that have anything to do with Ebay fees? If anything, it proves my point because A) I have to compete with retailers which means buying every stupid little picture and feature; all those dollars add up. B) Like I said, most of the prices on EBay are similar to online retailers because Ebay retailers have to mark up prices to make a decent profit.

You know, EBay retailers didnt just crop up in the last year. There were plenty around years ago and EBay was a great place for bargains because they could undercut the corporate retailers. Now they can't, so again, blame sits on EBay's shoulders.

Like I said (apparently you cant read whole posts) I understand the need to make profit, I disagree with the method. Other corporations can turn profits without nickle and dimeing their customers. Small retailers can sell on Amazon just fine and usually for much cheaper, so don't tell me it's impossible for EBay to turn a profit without triple-dipping.

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RE: Ugh

By kmmatney on 12/4/2009 3:14:27 AM , Rating: 2

Ebay fees are pretty low - most of my listings are free actually, or cost like 15 cents. It's the Paypal fees that get you. I have over 500 transactions on Ebay, and tried other sites as well, but Ebay is the easiest/bets for me. They all nickel and dime you, and craigslist is a pain. I've used it a few times and will use it for larger items that need a local sale, but otherwise Ebay is works for me.

"Like I said, most of the prices on EBay are similar to online retailers because Ebay retailers have to mark up prices to make a decent profit."

As a seller, I don't agree with this at all. The prices are set to what the market can bear - they can easily sell lower in many cases. I think the main problem with a lot of Ebay retailers is that they have to compete with other gaint retailers like NewEgg, and your just not going to get a lower price.

As I said earlier, most of my listings are free, and you can easily make up a 15 cent listing on shipping. The Paypal fees suck, but Ebay provides a very good service.

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RE: Ugh

By mindless1 on 12/3/2009 7:18:40 PM , Rating: 2

more like paranoia and fear of real people. Driving (or otherwise traveling before automobiles) somewhere to buy an item is a trivial thing done all over the world since the beginning of time.

It may be a "fact" that you don't like the process, but certainly not a fact that it's much of a problem as many people demonstrate daily.

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RE: Ugh

By tjaisv on 12/3/2009 4:54:55 PM , Rating: 2

Oh please you sound like you're 12 years old yourself. Craigslist is used by millions of people who are on there for plenty of different reasons and of course not everybody is going to be a great speller or a savory character. But don't try and paint it as being a complete cesspool full of idiots and degenerates, because it's simply not. It's not ebay, it's not an auction site, it's not a fluff site with a lot of really cool pictures and annoying advertisements, it's a free simple straightforward easy to use place where u can get what you want and fast, which is why most people who use it like it.

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RE: Ugh

By The0ne on 12/4/2009 10:01:24 AM , Rating: 2

I think CL is ok but you just have to be more careful of the degenerates posting there. I think people ged the wrong idea due to the fact they either they themselves go into the "x seeking x" section or have just been reading the bad press regarding the "x seeking x" section.

If one bothers to go into other sections then it's quite useful.

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RE: Ugh

By The0ne on 12/4/2009 10:01:25 AM , Rating: 2

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RE: Ugh

By Davelo on 12/3/2009 7:26:40 PM , Rating: 3

I know who to believe. It's easy. Follow the money. Craigslist is free and ebay charges for all transactions. That tells you right there it's ebay that is the evil one. They must be wanting to take over craigslist so they can begin charging everybody. The bastiges

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RE: Ugh

By slashbinslashbash on 12/4/2009 5:29:06 AM , Rating: 2

What are you trying to find on Craigslist anyway that has you digging up all these scuzzy people? I have found CL to be most useful. I have bought and sold furniture, washer/dryer sets, guitars, computers, camera equipment.... even bought my wedding ring on CL. Oh, not to mention a rental property that was listed on CL FSBO... no realtor fees!

Yes, you are dealing with individuals, and sometimes that can be a hassle. People aren't always going to go out of their way to get in touch with you, and I'd say 1/2 of the emails that I send out to say I'd like to buy something are never answered. It's OK though; sometimes when I'm selling something on CL, I don't reply because I get busy and things just slip through the cracks. I'm not trying to run a business; I'm just trying to get rid of some stuff that's taking up space in my garage. If it doesn't happen this week, well, no hurry. It's great to be able to meet in person and inspect the goods before purchase. If it's something relatively small then we'll meet at a Starbucks or mall food court or something. If it's furniture then obviously it will need to be picked up at the seller's house.

And I'm surprised that you have so many complaints about the formatting of people's ads on CL. I have seen plenty of eBay auctions with all caps, poor spelling, and no photos.

You have to get over your fear of people. Both eBay and CL are founded on the belief that most people are inherently good. It's a simple trust thing. All of the buyers and sellers I have come across on CL have just been everyday normal people. Of course there are a few obvious scammers who e-mail, but they're easy enough to figure out (hint: they usually just say "item" instead of referring to the actual item you're selling: lens, PS2, monitor, guitar, etc.). But pretty much every time I have had a good transaction. You have to rely on your own sense of propriety and common sense to make sure you don't get scammed, but you'd have to be a real dummy to get hurt too bad. IMO it's much harder to be scammed in a face-to-face, cash-in-hand transaction than one in which the item is shipped a long distance, and the money is transferred electronically.

It's kind of ironic, really. Ebay started as a place where people just came to buy and sell their stuff. It even got the nickname "fleabay" because it was like a flea market. Nowadays most of the sellers are businesses, most of the goods are new, and most of the purchases are Buy It Now. In other words, eBay is basically a mall or an aggregator of online stores. CL is just the opposite. There are some businesses using it (mostly in the auto and furniture sections) but for the most part it is just individuals selling their used stuff.

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RE: Ugh

By Motoman on 12/4/2009 2:57:20 PM , Rating: 2

Simply logging into CL makes me uneasy. Not a single thing about CL makes me feel the least bit comfortable about using that service...the instant I look at it I feel like I'm in the cyberspace version of a dark alley looking for a "guy" who has this "thing" that I "need."

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While eBay and Craigslist sue each other, now is the time to launch a competitor

By coreychambers on 12/3/2009 5:03:10 PM , Rating: 3

While to two biggest online purveyors of used products attack each other, now is the time for a competitor to begin. The new website will offer the functionality of eBay, but without the high fees, without the disrespectful treatment of its sellers, without the glitches and antiquated website technology. The new website will have a dynamic form that will tell the seller what information is needed to sell each particular type of item.

As a Trading Assistant on eBay with a Registered eBay Drop Off Location store in Santa Ana, CA. I can attest that eBay has developed a very poor image with its customers, especially its sellers due to its horrendous behavior. eBay is the only company in the world to routinely accuse, threaten and punish the majority of its customers.

eBay has built a reputation that is sort of the opposite of Disney or Coke, known for the value of their goodwill (brand value). eBay has a pitiful reputation like Enron, AIG or Haliburton.

Now is the time for that to change. eBay will soon wake up, realize that it is an auction website after all, start focusing on providing an improved auction experience for its customers. Otherwise, the time is ripe for eBay to be replaced.

Corey Chambers on eBay
coreychambers.com

RE: While eBay and Craigslist sue each other, now is the time to launch a competitor

By Davelo on 12/3/2009 7:30:04 PM , Rating: 2

The competition can't hurt.

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Kiji from eBay...

By Marlin1975 on 12/3/2009 11:38:20 AM , Rating: 4

sucks.

I tried to use it but it does not come anywhere near Craigslist IMO.

If eBay wants to launch a competing product

By bubba551 on 12/3/2009 11:24:22 AM , Rating: 3

it should at least be called "eHo"

Is that guys name seriously....

By Smartless on 12/3/2009 4:37:26 PM , Rating: 2

Donahoe? Like as in Don - A - Hoe... Lol

shipping

By tcko on 12/5/2009 8:24:10 AM , Rating: 2

One thing all of you haven't mentioned is how expensive shipping has become...off the charts
I've been a business member of Ebay and Paypal since 2003 with 100% feedback...I've never had a problem and I'm setup to pay with paypal with my bank as first backup then my CC as ending backup...works quite well.
But the biggest problem I see is the cost of shipping for large or heavy items, customers balk at paying shipping costs that are more than the value of the item, so I've started using Craiglist for those items selling local...deal with the customer face to face with no added costs... and instant payment....and I've only failed to sell one item using craiglist only because it wasn't exactly what the customer wanted.
A new shipping company would be good to undercut UPS and USPS