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Defense lawyers in Guantanamo war tribunals are upset over third party monitoring, document disappearance

They're the men allegedly behind some of the worst terrorist attacks on the U.S.  As work at the Guantanamo Bay prison facility winds down, the Pentagon prepares to hold special war tribunals -- military trials -- for prisoners deemed too dangerous to release.

I. Defense Discovers Documents Delete, Smoke Alarms Were Really Mics

Those prisoners include five men responsible for helping plan the September 11 terrorist attacks.  They also include Abd al Rahim al Nashiri, who masterminded an attack on the USS Cole during its deployment to Yemen, an attack that killed 17 U.S. sailors.

But the pretrial hearings, which were supposed to start this week in some cases may be delayed due to allegations of foul play, according to Reuters.

Smoke alarm
What appeared to be smoke alarms in client meeting rooms were really disguised microphones.
[Image Source: Adeoma]

Defense lawyers for several of the suspects, who face the death penalty say they have evidence that their emails and internet searches were monitored by third parties.  And they say documents involved with the case began to disappear from their assigned Pentagon computers in February.  


Navy Commander Walter Ruiz represents Mustafa al Hawsawi, who is alleged with funneling funding for the 9/11 attacks. Ruiz states, "three to four weeks' worth of work is gone, vanished."

Aside from deletions, there was also evidence that prosecutors ordered system administrators to grant them access to 500,000 files on defense lawyers machines, files which included confidential attorney-client communications.  The Guantanamo detention camp's legal advisor also revealed that device that appeared to be smoke alarms in rooms where defense attorneys met with their clients were really microphones; but don't worry -- he claimed no conversations between the lawyers and their clients were recorded.

II. Human Rights Watchers: Trial "is a Sham"

International human rights watchdog group Human Rights First blasted the latest developments as "absolutely outrageous".  Its expert on the current proceedings -- Daphne Eviatar comments, "This is just further evidence that the military commission system is a sham and that all terrorism trials should be held in real U.S. federal courts on U.S. soil, where the rules are clear, defendants' rights are respected and the verdicts will have credibility."

Guantanamo Bay
Human rights watchers have complained that the Guantanamo Bay proceedings are a sham.
[Image Source: Getty Images]

The issues have been so severe that Colonel Karen Mayberry has advised the defense lawyers to stop storing case documents on Pentagon machines.  James Connell, a defense attorney for Ali Abdul Aziz Ali (aka Ammar al-Baluchi) -- the other alleged 9/11 plot funding funneler -- comments "I'll be filing a handwritten motion very shortly to ask for an abatement of the proceedings."

Given the extraordinary and unusual circumstances Army Colonel James Pohl -- the presiding judge in the trials -- has already delayed the pre-trial hearings of al Nashiri till June and is considering pushing the death penalty trial for the 9/11 conspirators as well.

Until February the preliminary hearings were being broadcast to the public and media via a closed circuit.  But the judge in February ordered those feeds cut, around the same time the alleged harassment of defense lawyers began.

Source: Reuters



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USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By mike66 on 4/13/2013 12:50:51 AM , Rating: 2
I'm all for a fair trial but you guys just don't get it, if those who are accused are to go on trial, then it should be conducted by a criminal court not a military court otherwise what you are doing is calling them lawful combatants, the results would be the same if they were guilty. Now did you monsters notice the second picture with the guys kneeling on the ground, of course it's not the guys who are up for trial but it shows you monsters torturing the prisoners, the are kneeling on sharp gravel, eye's hooded, with ear muffs. That is a pain amplication device so any confession given afterward should be invalid by any weastern civilized nation. I had some friends who worked in the twin towers so don't bother with the ends justifies the means. At least Major Morey who defended David Hicks ( not his choice it was his duty) Immagrated to Australia after Hicks was released and now works for Shine Lawyers in their Social Justice section learned a valuable lesson, you guys are now the monsters of the world. Those five terrorists will never receive a fair trial, what would you do if the local warlord said to you " I will kill you and your family if you don't do this". USA will not even conduct or house the prisoners on your own soil because it would mean you would have to conduct your business in a humane way, Sicko's.




RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By FITCamaro on 4/14/13, Rating: -1
RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By linkreincarnate on 4/14/2013 2:18:33 PM , Rating: 2
How do we know we got the right people if we don't give them a fair trial? If we just punish whoever we catch then the actual criminals go free. Also that that attitude what are you going to do when the government just starts declaring anyone who makes it squirm an enemy combatant? War criminals don't have rights, right?

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By mike66 on 4/15/2013 7:17:46 AM , Rating: 2
Over the weekend there was a riot, it is now come to light threw the BBC news service that there are one hundred people who are still being held there who have been proven innocent ( by the USA Intelligence service ) of any wrong doing and still are not being released for various reasons ( retaliation and such ) and some can no longer be returned to their country of origin. So you are just ignorant of what really goes on there.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Wulf145 on 4/15/2013 8:27:07 AM , Rating: 2
So, in your Opinion Calvin Gibbs and Jeremy Morlock and the rest of the "Kill Team" should have had no rights?

Or are you saying that the Afgan Government would be justified in detaining them in a Camp somwhere untill they deem it expedient to give them an Afgan military tribunal?


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By maugrimtr on 4/15/2013 8:48:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


I know a few old guys who might disagree with you. Then again, their definition of "men" might have varied.

You have to love the US. Best founding principles on the Planet. An example to everyone. Sadly populated in part by people without a sense of justice or proportion. Tell me, how were these people proven to all be War Criminals? It wasn't in a court of law. I guess we all should believe the folk with guns blindly then.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 11:51:09 AM , Rating: 2
cause your an ignorant redneck, they haven't been tried yet so they not "war criminals" many were turned in for the rewards offered for "terrorists"


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 1:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
wow you're a duck penis


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 4:20:22 PM , Rating: 2
and you sir, are a ignorant fool even more naive than fit, the american government appreciates for being "useful idiots" for believing their line


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Methusela on 4/14/2013 10:58:18 AM , Rating: 5
I'm not going to defend the actions of terrorists or call the USA a bunch of monsters, but there is little reason why, if there is a preponderance of evidence against the accused, they should not be tried fairly and swiftly.

Think about this before veering off into biasville:

If there is a bunch of conclusive proof that the people in custody actually committed crimes and/or terrorist actions, why wouldn't they be quickly charged with crimes (war or other), and tried completely fairly? Isn't that how it works?
quote:
We have a bunch of proof you did it. Arrest & detainment. Here are the charges. Trial. What happened? Here's how the law applies to this case. Verdict.

Holding them indefinitely, without charges, and not obeying the rules when prosecuting them simply sounds like

1) They're being held illegally.

2) There is no concrete evidence linking the prisoners with crimes.

3) Cheating & lying in the proceedings, ignoring the rights we extend to prisoners and their defense teams, seems like the cases are flimsy at best.

4) Even if you could claim these were war circumstances, which they aren't because there has been no formal declaration of war, the tenets of fair trials, military or civilian, dictate you should never cheat to win, and you would never have to if your case was solid.

This isn't a formal war, nor are these wartime combatants. What happened to due process? The idea that someone is presumed innocent until proven guilty; where is the fairness and equity in trial conditions & the security of evidence and private communications?

If this is happening as reported, here and elsewhere, there is some dirty dealing going on. A constitutionally righteous cause/man has no need to get dirty.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Reclaimer77 on 4/14/13, Rating: 0
RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By 91TTZ on 4/15/2013 7:34:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sir, these are NOT US citizens on US soil. The protections granted to us by the Constitution do NOT apply here. Get over that premise. These people fall under the rules of military tribunal, where their rights are more narrow, the burden of proof much less, and the entire process is more streamlined.


There are certain rules that apply to detaining enemy soldiers, and there are certain rules that apply to detaining criminals who aren't soldiers. The US is holding these people illegally under both scenarios. If you want to classify them as enemy soldiers they would need to be freed within a certain timeframe. If they were not soldiers but just criminals, they would need to be given a trial. The US is trying to claim that these people are neither and are somehow in a permanent state of legal limbo because we're holding them on a military base that we strangely own in an enemy country.

Our political leaders are ruining our country's reputation by not obeying international laws. We've become that kid on the playground who claims that rules don't apply to him because there's nobody around that can beat him up.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By Reclaimer77 on 4/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By ClownPuncher on 4/15/2013 12:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
Guerilla "insurgency" isn't even close to being a new type of war. Don't they teach history anymore?


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 1:14:24 PM , Rating: 2
they do and it's an every day occurrence.
The real question is do kids learn history from facebook or school.
Hit "like" and comment amen if you want to save babies.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By 91TTZ on 4/15/2013 2:30:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because as much as you and others like to believe all of these men are simply misunderstood decent people who are victims of a racist America, that's patently absurd.


I'm not one of those feel-good liberals who makes excuses on behalf of others to explain away reality. Personally I would have killed these people on the spot. I just don't support detaining them indefinitely.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By JonnyDough on 4/14/2013 2:41:21 PM , Rating: 3
I have met people who have worked at GB, and they are aware of international laws and the United States LOAC/Geneva Convention, etc. Our military is trained to know these laws and to follow them.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/deploymentsconflict...

Anyone unfamiliar with these laws, is probably too ignorant to be commenting on this article.


RE: USA IS FULL OF MONSTERS
By chromal on 4/14/2013 3:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm all for a fair trial, because I am an American and not a hypocrite.


There, I fixed it for you.


Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/13, Rating: -1
RE: Trials? Juries?
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 3:49:09 PM , Rating: 1
Except the government is as guilty, if not less, as the conspirators it's trying to prosecute, with various government entities and key persons actively circumventing the very things that makes America "Land of the Free".


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Ammohunt on 4/12/13, Rating: 0
RE: Trials? Juries?
By DanNeely on 4/12/2013 3:56:29 PM , Rating: 5
There are still rules though; and it appears as though some idiots have been violating them.

I want to see these SoBs to have perfectly fair trials followed by perfectly fair firing squads. Prosecutorial law breaking that destroys the possibility of the former will make the latter equally impossible.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/13, Rating: 0
RE: Trials? Juries?
By V900 on 4/12/2013 4:20:44 PM , Rating: 5
You are absolutely correct. There is no precedent for these civilian style trials.

These are enemy soldiers and should be treated as such.

And I'm sure an intelligent and well read person such as yourself have heard about the treaties on prisoners of war, no?

That means that they have rights under the Geneva convention, can't be subject to in humane treatment, as they are now, and of course have to be resettled on the US taxpayers dollar after hostilities cease. As they have largely done in Afghanistan.

If they have committed any crimes against humanity,they should of course be transferred to the international tribunal in Hague and face a fair trial there.

Anything less really just serves to further embarrass and humiliate the US in the court of international opinion, and will further erode any rights that US citizens still have.
(After all, if the government doesn't respect international human rights and conventions, why should they respect US citizens rights?)


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 4:30:20 PM , Rating: 2
Problem is, these aren't prisoners of war in the traditional sense. The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them. This has been a fictitious assertion that's been perpetrated throughout the media, and the public has parroted it. But it's simply not the case.

This is Article IV of the Geneva Convention.

"Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:

That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

That of carrying arms openly;

That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."



I have highlighted the criteria terrorists do not meet, therefore according to the Geneva Convention, it simply does not apply to them or their treatment as prisoners.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 4:35:16 PM , Rating: 1
The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them precisely because USA refuses to recognize the Geneva Convention in the first place.

Not surprising this comes from a country whose previous President publicly declared waterboarding is legal.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 4:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them precisely because USA refuses to recognize the Geneva Convention in the first place.


We absolutely DO recognize it. Again, the Geneva Convention applies to a declared war against another nation state, and their uniformed soldiers and civilians. What part about that are you NOT getting? Terrorists aren't technically soldiers or militia, they don't declare themselves for any particular nation, and they aren't uniformed or otherwise clearly marked. Hence, they get NO Geneva Convention protection status.

If you just hate the United States and want to say whatever crazy crap you want, hey, have at it. But you're just wrong here.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Spuke on 4/12/2013 5:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them precisely because USA refuses to recognize the Geneva Convention in the first place.
LOL! We don't. Guess the US military's been lying to its soldiers then AND having them living a lie by following the Geneva Convention when we really weren't supposed to. BTW, Rec is right, terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva convention and I find it interesting we're even giving them ANY rights.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Ammohunt on 4/12/2013 9:58:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I mean I have been out of the ARMY for 20 years but I distinctly remember the covering the rules of land warfare. We follow the rules to our own detriment.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 7:42:38 AM , Rating: 2
You do realize the Geneva Convention and Rules of Engagement are exactly why our progress was so slow right? Have you ever seen its complexity and scope? I have to remember all of that. Please read it and tell me how easy it is to remember a whole small book of rules when you're receiving fire or a guy with a bomb is running at you. Or You're surrounded by civilians and you know terrorists are there in the crowd but there's not much you can do to protect your men.

In fact, from my experience, it seems like the only country out there that tried to follow the Geneva Convention was the US. But our forces make up over 95% of total coalition forces so we always get the bad rep.

Don't let a few bad eggs that had been blown up by the media fool you. Almost everyone follow the rules, the ones that break them usually have something personal or are racists. There is always a small amount of turds in every large group. You cannot completely avoid that.

Let's not forget our enemies doesn't follow any rules. They can care less about ours besides to use it against us. You think waterboarding is bad? The torture they put on both our and their people are unimaginable. Let's just say a gutted pig on a hook had a much better death. People are quickly to hate on the US without knowing what is really going on.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 11:58:21 AM , Rating: 2
You clearly don't have a clue what the U.S has done


RE: Trials? Juries?
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 1:00:43 PM , Rating: 2
you clearly have no clue of what's really happening besides what you've read.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 4:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
and where do you get your info?


RE: Trials? Juries?
By inperfectdarkness on 4/12/2013 8:42:49 PM , Rating: 2
This is the ultimate issue. This is why Gitmo still exists & why the issue is still so hotly debated. It is COLLECTIVELY the fault of the entirety of western civilization that there has been no internationally codified & sanctioned rules of law for dealing with prisoners that fall into this legal black-hole. There most certainly is a gap between national laws (that only apply to citizens of said state) and organized combat (where the combatants are uniformed, and are not legally allowed to hide amongst or target civilians).

Until this gap is addressed, the problem will continue. I submit that it must be addressed if there is ever to be any hope of "winning" the Global War on Terror.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By DalisMoustache on 4/13/2013 12:17:32 AM , Rating: 2
Why did you note quote Convention 3 article 5?
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

Can you explain the what the loophole is? It seems clear to me (and many other more scholarly persons): there are two categories: combatants, non-combatants. If in doubt a tribunal must decide.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ImJustSaying on 4/13/2013 2:10:13 PM , Rating: 4
I think you're wasting your time trying to have an honest debate with Reclaimer, simply because you're having an argument with the village idiot. This turd has been posting on DailyTech about the evils of liberalism and the virtues of fascism for quite some time now. He lacks the fundamental ability to empathize with others. He's a good little Nazi, so as long as you accept that, then you'll know to simply ignore his posts.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/13/2013 4:15:07 PM , Rating: 1
Godwin says what?


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ipay on 4/18/2013 9:24:49 AM , Rating: 2
Tbh I think he's right and I just wasted time replying to you.

+n+(?_?)+n+.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ipay on 4/18/2013 8:48:53 AM , Rating: 2
#1
quote:
That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;


Of course when writing this you considered, that:

A US military tribunal has ruled that wearing enemy uniforms BEFORE combat operations is "fine" with them. Or is your argument that you are actually sure none of them was wearing a "distinctive sign recognizable at a distance" during combat operations?

See

quote:
Paragraph 43 of the Field Manual published by the War Department, United States Army, on 1st October, 1940, under the title " Rules of Land Warfare ", says: " National flags, insignias and uniforms as a ruse-in practice it has been authorised to make use of these as a ruse. The foregoing rule (Article 23 of the Annex of the IVth Hague Convention), does not prohibit such use, but does prohibit their improper use. It is certainly forbidden to make use of them during a combat. Before opening fire upon the enemy, they must be discarded ". The American Soldiers' Handbook, which was quoted by Defence Counsel, says: " The use of the enemy flag, insignia and uniform is permitted under some circumstances. They are not to be used during actual fighting, and if used in order to approach the enemy without drawing fire, should be thrown away or removed as soon as fighting begins ".


-----------------

#2
quote:
That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war


What exactly are you refering to? The heavily disputed "legality" of drone strikes? War crimes committed by the "kill team", Academi (former XE serivces, former Blackwater)? ...

How do war crimes/... justify randomly arresting people and not giving them a fair trial? Just go ahead and shoot them or sentence them without any defense/lawyer, but stop pretending there was a fair trial because at this point this is just laughable.

#3
On Guantanamo in general:

If you at least looked up Guantanamo on wikipedia you'd see that pretty much everyone argues that it is not legal.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detent...

- Martin Scheinin, a United Nations rapporteur on rights
- The International Committee of the Red Cross ("Every person in enemy hands must have some status under international law: he is either a prisoner of war ... a civilian covered by the Fourth Convention, ... there is no intermediate status; nobody in enemy hands can fall outside the law.")
- Henry T. King, Jr., a prosecutor for the Nuremberg Trials

I think I'll side with the ICRC on this one.

#4
__?i????? ??l??? ??l?*?? ??i??? ???|_?_?_? _??_ _?_?_p_?_? _?_?_?_? _|??? ? ??i??? ??l????.___


RE: Trials? Juries?
By FITCamaro on 4/14/2013 9:11:15 AM , Rating: 1
It's a good thing this generation of people wasn't in charge during WW2. We'd have lost.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/14/2013 9:51:52 AM , Rating: 1
OMG no kidding. Can you imagine what these whining bleeding heart liberals would say?

"We're the real Nazis man, Hitler is just defending himself!"

But then again I still see people on here claiming the Moon landing was a hoax. So they probably think the Holocaust was too.

Having scruples about something is fine. But the sheer willful ignorance of these people when it comes to the pragmatic realities of the situation is just amazing to me.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 4:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
War has a separate set of rules for good reason. you should educate yourself on them.

None of the 9/11 hijackers were instrumental in chipping away at the freedoms and privacy of the American people. All of that work was done by Washington DC.

Whoever that orchestrated the attack that day lost 20 men at most. We lost a lot more than that over 12 years and counting, and we even have our own government spying on us.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 4:35:17 PM , Rating: 2
Yup just like those "innocent" detainees Obama released, only for them to go right back over there and commit terrorist attacks.

Do you think high-priced defense lawyers and a jury of idiot "peers" are more capable of deciding guilt or innocence than military tribunal? OJ Simpson trial anyone?


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 4:45:12 PM , Rating: 2
Right, because in order to send these supposed monsters to their untimely deaths, we must become monsters ourselves.

Your hypocrisy and ignorance are terrifying.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 4:49:00 PM , Rating: 2
And your idiocy is equally alarming.

One of those "innocent" people set off a bomb in Yemen at a public cafe. Over 20 men, women, and children lost their lives. As well as many more injured.

And you speak about the untimely deaths of the detainees and us becoming the monsters?


RE: Trials? Juries?
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 5:04:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One of those "innocent" people set off a bomb in Yemen at a public cafe. Over 20 men, women, and children lost their lives. As well as many more injured.

And you speak about the untimely deaths of the detainees and us becoming the monsters?

You want idiocy, here's a good one.

The very country that actively promotes freedom of speech, democracy and human rights abroad is busy curtailing all three on its home soil.

Two decades ago I can still buy home science kits off the shelf. If I do that today I get a nasty visit by the FBI because they assume I'm going to make IEDs with it.

Immigration and customs screening procedures were less bothersome and invasive 15 years ago than today.

Tell me, who enabled all of these unacceptable intrusions and violations? None of the prisoners at Gitmo had the political clout to push the Patriot Act through a sheepish Congress and a slumbering Senate. They couldn't stage a military coup against the Obama Administration even if Iran backed their efforts.

You're making an insecure fool out of yourself.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 6:17:06 PM , Rating: 2
You realize that just because I support the imprisonment of people who are trying to kill us, doesn't mean I HAVE to also support the Patriot Act and all those other things too right?

I really hate when people argue from a false premise...

quote:
None of the prisoners at Gitmo had the political clout to push the Patriot Act


True, but so what? Does this, in your mind, legitimize them or excuse away their actions?

Your talking points seem to be solely based on moral relativism, well, like most Libs.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 8:03:03 AM , Rating: 2
Those prisoners/terrorists didn't make the Patriot Acts. The Patriot Act was made to protect you from those terorrists. What's so bad about answering a few questions when the flip side is the chance of you you showing up to work to have the whole building explode? Is is a privacy intrusion? yes, but it shouldn't affect your life at all besides being a little annoying.

If you ordered basic kits, then you will not get flagged. I'm pretty sure you were buying something more than that. They only flag certain materials that are commonly bought for making explosive and are found in recent terrorist activities. The FBI does not have the resources or people to show up at everyone's house when they buy a basic science kit. Be real people.
If you were a real scientist, then you can purchase it from work and I promise you no one will show up to question you.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 4:35:19 PM , Rating: 2
Since your not a member of Homeland Security,FBI, or ANY law enforcement agency your promises are totally worthless


RE: Trials? Juries?
By mike66 on 4/14/2013 1:14:46 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
"rights" and due process, those are mechanisms of a free and peace loving society

So you said it, your scumbag society has none of that. Are we learning yet.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By mike66 on 4/15/2013 7:33:02 AM , Rating: 1
As per usual your ignorance is sickening showing what a complete lack of understanding of what it is to be a real Human.
quote:
We didn't just round up a bunch of people and arbitrarily throw them in Guantanamo for no reason. Every single one of these people, I use people loosely, are guilty. By definition they are armed combatants!


It's exactly what happened to a lot of GITMO detainees.

Over the weekend there was a riot, it is now come to light threw the BBC news service that there are one hundred people who are still being held there who have been proven innocent ( by the USA Intelligence service ) of any wrong doing and still are not being released for various reasons ( retaliation and such ) and some can no longer be returned to their country of origin. So you are just ignorant of what really goes on there.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 11:55:17 AM , Rating: 2
Without hearing evidence you no nothing about their guilt or innocence. When the police arrest someone do u automatically judge them guilty? Many of these people were turned in for money.


RE: Trials? Juries?
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 1:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
are you prepped for doomsday?


RE: Trials? Juries?
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 4:38:55 PM , Rating: 2
Why? Do you have some more of your "exclusive information" to share with us? Is Obama getting ready to nuke Iran and North Korea?


Kill these guys already!!
By ROTFLCOPTER on 4/12/13, Rating: -1
RE: Kill these guys already!!
By V900 on 4/12/2013 4:28:54 PM , Rating: 5
You don't even know if they're guilty. Some of those people are in Guantanmo simply because there was a reward out for "Arabs" in Afghanistan, and some locals turned them in for a couple of thousand dollars, even though they had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

There have been dozens of people through the years who have turned out to be I. Guantanamo just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. One of them was an Al Jazeera cameraman, should he also "have his head cut off".

Think before you post... Or educate yourself on the subject.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 4:31:33 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I completely agree with those of you that are saying that a trial for these guys is ludicrous. Would they have ever considered giving someone they captured a "fair trial?" No, they freaking cut their heads off and film it for the rest of the world. Why can't we do in kind?

And be as grotesquely uncivilized and monstrous as the "monsters" we seek to exorcise?

We are rewriting the rules that served us so we can punish these insurgents. Is it worth the immeasurable losses of freedom and privacy?


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 4:45:32 PM , Rating: 3
For the record, no, I do not want to see their heads cut off.

However I would like you to clarrify this:

quote:
We are rewriting the rules that served us so we can punish these insurgents.


What rules? In a traditional war prisoners would be kept until such time as hostilities ceased or their superiors would negotiate for a release/transfer etc etc.

This is a completely unprecedented situation. These are NOT soldiers! Please get that through your heads. They have no clearly identified superiors who represent them. They don't have a country that officially recognizes them as combatants. We really have no option but to throw them in camps and try to figure out what to do with them.

And no, simply closing Guantanamo and letting them all free is NOT a sane option.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 5:19:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What rules? In a traditional war prisoners would be kept until such time as hostilities ceased or their superiors would negotiate for a release/transfer etc etc.

This is a completely unprecedented situation. These are NOT soldiers! Please get that through your heads. They have no clearly identified superiors who represent them. They don't have a country that officially recognizes them as combatants. We really have no option but to throw them in camps and try to figure out what to do with them.

And no, simply closing Guantanamo and letting them all free is NOT a sane option.

Unprecedented rofl.

Warrantless wiretapping.
Patriot Act.
National Security Letters.
Waterboarding.
Spying boxes at major telco switching centers.

All of the above were direct results of our "rewriting the rules that served us so we can punish these insurgents."

The insurgents sent a few suicide bombers, brought down two office buildings and damaged a command center. The entire USA cowered in fear ever since.

The insurgents won the game since September 11, 2001. What you advocated here merely extends their winning streaks.

Your idiocy knows no bounds.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 5:24:33 PM , Rating: 1
Umm again, you keep widening the scope of this conversation to off-topic straw men arguments.

I'm totally with you that we've gone too far in some places. WAY too far. But again, that has nothing to do with those detainees or this article.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By ritualm on 4/12/2013 5:33:05 PM , Rating: 2
Those detainees are as human as you and me.

But when key members of the prosecution are intentionally sabotaging the defense side with these petty behavior, it means the government has some really big dirt it doesn't want the defense to know/find out because it would have toppled their carefully arranged deck of cards.

This is increasingly looking like the high hell that resulted in Aaron Swartz killing himself.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Ammohunt on 4/12/2013 9:53:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Those detainees are as human as you and me.


I have seen the videos of people like this cutting of the heads of their enemies trust me they are less than human.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/12/2013 11:17:05 PM , Rating: 2
That's old hat. They've stooped to a new low with shooting that 14 year old girl in the head.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Spuke on 4/12/2013 5:36:47 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Your idiocy knows no bounds.
Your inability to stay on the subject knows none either.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By ghost49x on 4/13/2013 12:54:54 PM , Rating: 2
And just wondering what you would advocate? Though the governments have clearly not taken the best direction but at least it's a direction. How many dangerous individuals were stopped before they could make a reality of their mass murdering plans and conspiracies due to these questionable practices you've cited. If such methods could've been used to stop 9/11 can you honestly say that you wouldn't get your hands dirty to save almost 3000 lives?


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/12/2013 7:20:01 PM , Rating: 5
You do realise that the reason why we in the west (not just the usa, before anyone thinks that I'm attacking Americans) feel that we can fly and sail over to wherever, blow their countries up, overthrow governments etc is because we say that we have high standards than the said peoples/regimes that we overthrow, so we're just trying to make the world a better place.

As we start lowering our own standards further and further, and do what they do, then we are no better than them, so our actions (whether you believe that's really why we do what we do anyway) are less and less legitimate in anyone's eyes.

Also, as you back these base actions up and calling for "prisoners" (many of whom are taken and transported illegally, or without due process/rights), then if you get blown up by a "terrorist" then you've frankly got what's coming to you as much as they have/had.

Oh, I'm too tired, I hope that you get the point.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By ghost49x on 4/13/2013 1:37:39 PM , Rating: 2
I don't care too much about other countries living conditions, if people really want change they can figure out a way to do it themselves or at least ask for help. However when these people plan mass murder (what ever the cause) I don't want my government to sit on their hands until it's too late to avert the carnage. Also note that most of these extremists are all too happy to die for their cause and often live, train and spread their mentality in other countries where the law enforcement is not capable of taking care of such cases or is so corrupt that they are receiving regular bribes from the extremists


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/14/2013 2:52:23 AM , Rating: 3
You might want to look up why people plot mass murder against the west.

We've been interfering in their lives and killing a lot more of them, changing their governments, redrawing national borders, propping up tyrants (and corrupt police forces who do our bidding too), supplied the arms and training to many of the terrorists that, when they were doing our bidding were "freedom fighters" but when they don't, are terrorists, for a lot longer than terrorists have been plotting against the west.

What reason do we give for doing all this? It's usually with the excuse that we are spreading civilization, democracy, improving their living conditions etc etc etc..

I'm not condoning any terrorist acts of course.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Reclaimer77 on 4/14/2013 10:00:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You might want to look up why people plot mass murder against the west.


Not interested in this Liberal fantasy where terrorism is justified because people have been pissed off in the past. It's insulting to our intelligence.

And as usual you VASTLY overstate our impact and influence. If these regions weren't so dangerously unstable in the first place, it wouldn't have been POSSIBLE to do all these things anyway.

quote:
I'm not condoning any terrorist acts of course.


No you're just excusing it away by making it seem like a perfectly rational reaction to whatever made up injustices.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/15/2013 5:22:25 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know if you're being serious or not.

You do know that just saying "liberal fantasy" isn't a retort at all, and just ignoring the reality of the situation.

Again I am not justifying terrorism, I'm explaining why people are pissed at us, and why we need to maintain higher standards as we use those to justify our actions in the regions where many of these terrorists comes from. If we just start killing "terrorists" without trials etc, we are no better than them.

Please get out of your "with us or against us" childish place, and debate on an adult level.

Are you categorically denying that the west (Britain, Germany, France in the past with America more recently) have had zero influence in who has been in charge of nations in the middle east and elsewhere (e.g. Libya) etc as mentioned in my post above as fantasy, or that the affect of any of these things that our nations have done are only really inor ikle things that you would not be bothered about happening in your nation?


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 7:48:42 AM , Rating: 2
That's the past and we live in the present. There's no with us or against us, there's no fantasy either. I suggest you get an intel job for the DIA, CIA, DoD, join the military, etc... so you can get a real idea of what's really happening. I also suggest you should visit these countries and I'm not talking about their resorts/tourists area.

Nobody cares that you are an armchair warrior because you're well within your rights to do so. You have this notion to think that you're right when you've never seen any of this with your own eyes.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 12:02:47 PM , Rating: 2
You're the one who's clueless, I'm only surprised the people in other countries havent committed more violent acts against america after everything we've done to them. Vietnam, Iran, Guatamala, Nicarauga, ad nauseum


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 12:59:06 PM , Rating: 1
What? You don't even know your stories. I grew up in VietNam, I've been to Iraq and Afghan. I've spent 7.5 years in the USMC and now retired recently.
I can only tell you that the majority of VietNam is grateful for the US. In fact, millions would rather risk their life to escape to the US on a bamboo raft than staying there. Also, idk why people don't acknowledge that fact that the war was heavily influenced by the Chinese. VietNam is a very small country where the big and populated cities are in the South. Where do you think all those troops from the North come from? it's the freaking rurals, there's barely any population in VietNam during the 50s and 60s. Think of why you see so many Vietnamese in the US and they like to raise the old flag(yellow with 3 red stripes) vs the new flag. Hell even the Northern Vietnamese would do anything to escape to the US.

Most Iraqis are grateful for the US involvement also if you ever care to do anything besides being an keyboard warrior. The problem is the vast majority is fearful for their lives because their whole family gets tortured and executed by terrorists if they are caught helping the US. Same for Afghan.

I don't know much about Iran but I'm pretty sure same situation there. If any country uses religion for extreme means, close its borders and prevent its own people from moving in and out only means that people are trying to run away. Iran is no different than North Korea.

There's always haters when you're on top. You may disagree about things that our country have done but you really should not talk shit about your country before knowing the facts. The people in Iran and NK hates their government. They can't even go on a forum to whine because they'll probably get executed. Think of all the people that died so you can whine.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Skywalker123 on 4/15/2013 4:29:54 PM , Rating: 2
I lost friends and a brother in Vietnam chump, so don't try and tell me about the war we lost, We devastated that country with more bombs than was dropped in WWII and deforested most of their old growth forests. We prevented elections there because Ho chi Minh would have won.Iraq is destroyed and descending into sectarian civil war. Iran loves us for overthrowing their democratically elected goverment and installing our puppet, the Shah. and for shooting down their civilian airliner and assassinating their soldiers and scientists.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/16/2013 2:49:23 AM , Rating: 2
You are missing the point and not looking beyond the end of your historical nose.

The things is, Iraq's may well be glad that US troops freed them from Saddam. The thing is, he was the same Saddam that America and the west supported for so long.. Iraq is a country that has been manipulated by the west, by the British, a long time before Sadam and the USA's involvement too.

The same with Vietnam, and I don't think that America fighting communism there was a bad thing (even though it was a messy affair) but the thing is, who had been meddling there before hand? Yep, the French, another western power interfering for it's own ends, weakening the country for it's own good, then abandoning it when the going got tough.

Iran, a country who's regime we in the west toppled in the past, only to find that it only made matters worse in the long run and (arguably) caused, or at least encourage/added to, the more extreme nature of the current regime.

We like to think that these countries have always been backwards places that needed our "civilising" by cruise missile, but until we came along and weakened regimes for our own ends (as well as to stop the spread of communism, so sometimes with the best of intentions) they were just countries that had a different religion. It wasn't until we came aiong and intefered that things became more polarised and extreme, as they had something to react against.

Many people also forget that one of the main things that Al Qaeda actually wanted was for the USA to close their bases in Saudi Arabia and stop interfering in the region, and not because they support the regimes in the region, because most didn't like Al Qaeda or their ilk either. It's not because they want Sharia law in your home town, as we're often led to believe, it started out that they just didn't want the west interfering any more in their home lands.

And please don't get me wrong. I don't think that everything that the west or the USA has ever done on the global stage is/was evil. The problem is, even when we interfere with the best of intentions, then there are often unexpected consequences and we rarely think about how it must feel to eb living in these countries.

And we do need to get involved sometimes. I'm not saying it's black and white. Always good to get involved, or always bad so we never should. But if we are going to keep on doing what we do and try to police the world, we need to be doing so by maintaining the highest standards, rather than stooping to the terrorists standards and just killing people we capture and say are terrorists without trial, as that will only make our enemies stronger, and put our soldiers at even greater risk too, as well as making use morally weaker too.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By BRB29 on 4/15/2013 1:10:08 PM , Rating: 2
lol i get voted down for the dumbest reason.

I'm sorry I've actually experience things instead of "knowing" everything from reading online articles.

conspirator: "US messed VietNam and they hate us"
me: "I'm vietnamese and I grew up there. Most people are very US friendly"
conspirator: "You don't know that. I'm right cause the article agrees with me"
me: "please explain why you see millions of vietnamese that risk their life trying to float thousands of miles in the ocean half way around the earth on a raft. All the Vietnamese in the US also only fly the old flag that was backed by the US"
conspirator: "You don't know what you're talking about"
me: "sure because I've lived in reality and you fantasizing."

believe it or not, I have had several conversations like this.


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/16/2013 3:04:20 AM , Rating: 2
It must be great to have that time machine of yours, so that you can say that you actually experienced everything, not like those other idiots who just have to go by what they read and hear.

Are you omnipresent, omniscient? I know that people sometimes have a high opinion of themselves here, but you've taken it to a new level.

Kudos :)


RE: Kill these guys already!!
By Aloonatic on 4/16/2013 2:58:09 AM , Rating: 2
Armchair warrior? What are you talking about?

Your first few words are quite mind boggling too. The past should be ignored because we live in the present?

So please tell me, what is happening? Have you seen the whole world and history of it with your own eyes? Wow, conceited much?!?!

Please, go back and read all that I write here, not just the bits that you want too, as it doesn't appear that you have the slightest clue about what I'm actually saying, as if you had, you would see that I am saying that there's no fantasy either, so I don't know where you got that from in the first place.


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