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Rich Bengloff, a music industry veteran who has worked with major labels, is now is a champion of independent music as president of A2IM. DailyTech recently interviewed him on a number of the toughest topics in the music industry today.  (Source: A2IM)
A music industry expert discusses some of the industry's toughest challenges

The music industry is a wholly different beast from your father's music business or even the industry that existed at the start of 1990s.  While the advent of CDs and music video brought revolutionary changes of sorts, nothing would compare to what the future held in store in the form of the digital revolution.

From MP3 players like iPods to the complex issues that came with them such as peer-to-peer networks and piracy, to online music services such as iTunes, the music landscape was transformed.  Today, artists get their break frequently, not from dedicated touring, but from posting a catchy demo on MySpace.  Bands sometimes offer free albums for download, or offer exclusive content in digital form.

With these changes has come controversy.  Some of the Digital Rights Management (DRM) software used in the past to manage copyright control borders has been likened to malware.  A vast legal war is being waged against pirates.  And Uncle Sam is looking to gain a bit of extra tax revenue tapping into the vast untaxed online downloads business characterized by the music industry services iTunes and Rhapsody.

Amid this chaotic landscape,
DailyTech recently talked to Rich Bengloff, a music veteran and president of the American Association of Independent Music (A2IM), an organization that represents small labels.  A2IM represents such popular labels as Matador, Sub Pop, Epitaph, and Saddle Creek, and thus represents artists as diverse as The Shins, Nirvana, the Postal Service, Belle and Sebastian, Sage Francis, and Bright Eyes.

With his prominent clientele, Mr. Bengloff seemed the ideal person to bounce some thoughts on the digital music industry off of -- someone who was an industry boss still in touch with his independent roots.

One thing Mr. Bengloff did make clear in our early questions is that piracy is hurting independent musicians as well as big record labels.  He stated, "Piracy is a problem for all music creators, large or small... The goal for creators of music has to be to drive people to these legal sources of music and to make sure that these sources of music for consumers properly compensate artists and labels for the use of their music. Unless these entities and the social networking sites, as well as the sellers of music, physical and digital as well as mobile carriers and subscription oriented models properly compensate creators the creation process will decline."

When asked about the recent Jammie Thomas case and other RIAA lawsuits, he made it clear that A2IM does not officially endorse nor condemn the RIAA's lawsuits.  He said that while A2IM sometimes works with the RIAA and sometimes operates separately, most of his constituents do believe in deterrents to piracy.

While A2IM takes no official side on the DRM debate, Mr. Bengloff did warn big labels not to be overly aggressive with DRM, lest they drive paying customers to piracy.  He continued, "The key issue is interoperability so that consumers can enjoy their music where and when they want to and any form of DRM in the marketplace needs to allow this usage or DRM will drive consumers toward greater piracy."

On internet radio, Mr. Bengloff remains concerned.  He is an advocate of internet radio and remains guardedly optimistic that Pandora and other stations will work out  reasonable deals and stay in business.  He remarked:

Like many we were troubled to hear Pandora recently refer to the current situation as a possible 'Last Stand For Webcasting.' As the primary advocacy group for the independent music label community we support a fair and equitable resolution to the webcasting rate negotiations -- a solution that fairly compensates artists and labels for their creativity and investment but still allows the pure play webcasting community to continue to grow. These webcasters need to be supported, as they give independently produced music the opportunity to be heard and discovered, which is all too often not the case at traditional AM/FM radio. The current CRB set rates for thru 2010 are problematic for the pure play webcasters, that said we are hopeful that all parties can get on track towards a constructive solution.

Finally, the discussion touched on the issue of taxation of online music downloads -- a touchy topic both for citizens and for the music industry.  He warned that consequences to the formative online music business may be dire; "Do you think consumers will start paying $1.08 instead of $.99 for a track download?"

A final issue he expressed concern over was the upcoming Orphan Works legislation, which would allow parties to use musical works without gaining rights to use, if they made a "reasonable effort" to find the copyright owner and can show they were unsuccessful.  He said the vagueness of this bill could hurt small independent labels that are less well known.

DailyTech's interview with Mr. Bengloff offered some intriguing perspective from inside the music industry.  It also serves as a reminder of how complex and challenging the business can be.  DailyTech thanks Mr. Bengloff for his time and effort.  Thanks to hard working people in the independent music business like him, while they have to constantly worry about troublesome issues in the music industry, we can, most of the time, just enjoy our music.



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$1.08 instead of $.99
By AnnihilatorX on 9/4/2008 8:09:31 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
"Do you think consumers will start paying $1.08 instead of $.99 for a track download?"


You just need to give consumer a little bit more incentive, and that's not hard to do. Hell I would pay extra 20 cents if you pump up the quality of the track and give options for either lossy mp3s (for portable players) or loseless codecs like FLAC (for PCs) to download, and bundle CD booklet scans, photos or extra features; even lyrics in a digital form.

I would even pay a CD's full price for those amenities, since they are 'added value' compared to a CD where you have waste time to sit through the process of ripping scanning and ID3 tagging




RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/4/2008 8:17:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
...lyrics in a digital form.


One word: Google

Something to consider, though is that while your viewpoint is very reasonable, you obviously are an audiophile. I think >75 percent of people don't care whether they listen to MP3 or FLAC. Added value is good, but if the majority of people don't really care about these features, you'd be force to charge them more for no extra value.

And even if they were to add these features, they would cost the record labels and distributors money, thus you would be back to where you started -- with the music industry and the customers both being slammed.

A final note is that in the retail industry, typically no extra value is added because a product is taxed, so its hard to believe in the long run such measures online would stick.

Taxes are a sticky subject, but personally I'd say there's plenty of much more logical targets to tax than the online download business.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By AnnihilatorX on 9/4/2008 8:31:59 AM , Rating: 2
Asking your customer to dig up lyrics even if it's as easy as Google searching does not look like a professional way of 'treating' your customer.

Also, I have to disagree with you that all these add extra cost. As long as they are still selling CDs, all art booklets, lyrics are digitalized anyway in order to print them in the first place. I don't see how this would add any cost to the studio or publishers.
The only cost would be to digital distributor in terms of bandwidth but I do not think that's significant.

I know having lossless audio is more symbolic than practical. However I don't see how I would pay that much money to a format inferior to the old CD. You can call that nit-picking but I don't see it that way. People pay a lot of money for 5.1 channel speaker systems, $1000 for a pair of headphones, and I can see market there for lossless coding. Using mp3 is a step backward from CD, and in diminishing market like this, lossless is a marketable feature. On a side point, some lossless codecs support 5.1 channel audio. There are SACD and DVD-audio but they have been accessible due to lack of support. But on a digital form it become more accessible.

I seriously don't know how tax works but if the music industry is seriously not getting enough revenue they need to somehow think of a way to increase sales price and keep customer happy at the same time.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By JustTom on 9/4/2008 8:58:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I seriously don't know how tax works but if the music industry is seriously not getting enough revenue they need to somehow think of a way to increase sales price and keep customer happy at the same time.


I think a better choice would be to find ways to lower production costs. This way the industry could keep current prices, or even lower them, and still make more profits. 99 cents does seem like a psychological sweet spot.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By spuddyt on 9/4/2008 11:37:47 AM , Rating: 4
maybe stop paying the artists a thousand million dollars for producing 4 seconds of music?


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By amanojaku on 9/4/2008 12:14:41 PM , Rating: 2
4 seconds of REALLY BAD MUSIC. Doctors, firefighters, and policemen (police people?) save lives and get a mere pittance compared to actors, athletes, CEOs, and shoddy musicians. Seems like you get more money screwing people over than helping them out.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By jtesoro on 9/5/2008 9:12:56 AM , Rating: 2
But it's the market that's valuing the artists at millions of dollars. Being a business, the music labels would "want" to pay them less, but since artists like Beyonce and U2 are the geese that lays the golden eggs, paying them a pittance will result in a business catastrophe.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By tastyratz on 9/4/2008 9:22:38 AM , Rating: 3
This Rich B. guy just remains pretty neutral on everything. Does he have any real controversial or strong opinions of his own? Seems more like hes trying not to piss off either side than have any visions of positive change.

I do agree that higher quality downloads should exist but that's usually a choice by the content provider.
Amazon offers the highest quality legal music downloads I have found so far.

I have to disagree with you:
While it doesn't "appear" to be added cost because some form of content exists, there still is added cost.

This is a corporation - its not as simple as 1 guy sticks it in there.

This is what I imagine goes into the process:

Not all cds come with lyrics, someone has to type them up if they don't exist.

Someone needs to establish normal procedure and documentation for the process. If it doesn't exist someone will need to create some form of standardization (whether it be department, company, or industry wide)

A project manager would need to head it up.

Cd Text (while very logical and IMHO surprising that its not included) is not usually on a cd. ID3 tags would need to be created by someone.

Someone has to decide what content to go in the file, someone else has to edit/proofread lyrics/cd text, resize the art, etc. Management needs to view and give the go ahead and the artist/manager might need to as well. Someone somewhere needs to make a pie chart and someone in marketing needs to make it known that they did this. Then everyone needs to file a progress report.

Any changes start the cycle again.

Not as cheap as some intern in front of a copy of windows media after all...


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By JustTom on 9/4/2008 9:27:04 AM , Rating: 2
Many of these things are already done for insert into CD's. It would be trivial to include them in downloads.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By PhoenixKnight on 9/4/2008 5:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By omnicronx on 9/4/2008 10:26:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
People pay a lot of money for 5.1 channel speaker systems,
Any person that thinks listening to music in 5.1 is the best listening conditions, is not an audiophile...

On another note, generally mp3s are good from 20hz to 20mhz dropping off a little on the highs. That being said most people just don't have the speakers or headphones that you would be able to tell the difference. I may, you may, but my sister with stock iphone headphones certainly does not.. That added to the fact that most people with ipods unfortunately convert their tracks to AAC automatically (most of the time without their knowledge) doesnt help the situation either.

I would personally love if they started selling lossless audio on regular basis, but as space is still an issue, and lets face it most people listen to their music on some type of mp3 player, its just not needed at this time. When media-less audio starts to be released for home use, then maybe things will change, but who knows when that will be, or if it will ever come.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By mindless1 on 9/4/2008 1:26:05 PM , Rating: 2
I'd counter that because of MP3 players it's needed all that much more.

Some MP3 players, especially with aftermarket headphones (let's face it, the original phone cables wear out before a player does unless it's dropped one too many times), and the young generation are more digitally savvy and still have more of their hearing than the next generation(s).

I'm in the latter group and can still fairly easily hear the difference on an MP3 player with almost any MP3 encoded at less than 192Kb vbr, even using cheap earbuds since they lack bass moreso than the treble where the lossey codec degradation occurs the most, making the treble fidelity perhaps all the more important to preserve.

There is a large variation in amount of storage on an MP3 player as well, meaning the solution is to have the lossless format which the user subjectively encodes to the format they feel most compatible with their player, their need to have more songs on it vs higher quality.

I don't think the storage is as much of an issue today with a 650+GB HDD costing $100, that with FLAC or other lossless codecs the user has what they want, the ability to make a good audio CD too.

The key here is to give people something better than they get pirating it. Maybe even some pirates will end up paying for the better version if it's tracks they like.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By omnicronx on 9/4/2008 3:58:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm in the latter group and can still fairly easily hear the difference on an MP3 player with almost any MP3 encoded at less than 192Kb vbr
Without a doubt, with good headphones most people can tell the difference between a 128kb and a 192kb mp3. But when your headphones can only output the mid range frequencies (i.e stock ipod headphones), than chances are, its all but in your head.. Most of the compression mp3s receive comes from removing white space or sound frequencies that are not in use (generally sub 20hz and plus 20mhz in practice, but the end result usually has highs and lows that fall off at the midrange frequencies). To each his own i guess...


By wetwareinterface on 9/5/2008 4:04:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most of the compression mp3s receive comes from removing white space or sound frequencies that are not in use (generally sub 20hz and plus 20mhz in practice, but the end result usually has highs and lows that fall off at the midrange frequencies).


Your argument would be more convincing if you actually knew the average frequency ranges of recorded audio. I thought your first post about the range was, I assumed, a typo. Now that you've confirmed it twice I see it isn't.

The audio range is 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Not mhz. Also the audio range of an mp3 encoded at variable bit rates will fluctuate with the bit rate reduction. Even to the point of removing mid range frequencies that are easily apparent even on ear buds. However if you were to use a higher non-variable bit rate above 256 the average person wouldn't hear the difference even on mid range enclosed earphones with larger drivers from cd audio. The average person doesn't have a trained ear, and is happy if it goes boom and they can hear the high hats and singer clearly. Look at any car stereo, notice the only tone adjustments on 99% of all head units is treble and bass? That's because the manufacturers don't need to add any more than that because their largest target market doesn't require it. Nor buy anything with more if it costs them more as it isn't an essential purchase choice. How loud it gets, and how much bass it seems to have is the primary concern for the average buyer. Fidelity to the original signal is not a concern at all. I deal with it all the time with friends and everyone who asks me what would be the best audio device to get. I recommend the cheapest solution that offers the best bang for buck in fidelity and they balk at the price of low end hi-fi. They just want boom and loud, and then they go and get a sony/panasonic/jvc whatever with large woofers and don't even worry about what tweeters and mid range drivers that the set up comes with. As long as it is loud and has bass they are happy and think they saved money. Until they come over and listen to what I have and wonder why mine sounds so much better even though it's not as loud.

The actual solution to the whole taxation issue is...
charge less per song if the customer doesn't want to pay more with tax included. And yes I know corporations don't like to hear they have to take a cut in profits, which is why they make such a big deal over the taxation issue. They know they are going to lose money overall due to decreased sales because the tax will hit them either in less profits due to lowered prices to boost sales, or lower sales due to consumer loss of interest at higher prices. The really sad thing is the artist who actually did all the work to make the songs, gets the least of anyone in the percentages of the profits from online sales and recorded music sales.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By mindless1 on 9/7/2008 8:11:55 AM , Rating: 2
Most earbuds including the iPod stock have been measured to have reasonable response past 10KHz, usually closer to 14KHz. This is within the range easily degraded quite a lot by excessive MP3 compression.

Inaudible frequency ranges were already being removed from the majority of audio before anyone gets a chance to MP3 it. Check a few modern tracks in an audio editor.


RE: $1.08 instead of $.99
By JustTom on 9/4/2008 9:05:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
A final note is that in the retail industry, typically no extra value is added because a product is taxed, so its hard to believe in the long run such measures online would stick.


Added value is not taxed, added price is. Sales taxes are determine by the sales price not what is in the box, or in this case what is in the download. Lyric sheets, liner notes, and other items would be exceedingly cheap to produce in digital form and could easily represent added value to digital downloads without an increase in price.


Uncle Sam taxing?
By JustTom on 9/4/2008 9:02:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And Uncle Sam is looking to gain a bit of extra tax revenue tapping into the vast untaxed online downloads business characterized by the music industry services iTunes and Rhapsody.


The article cited is about states taxing downloaded content not the federal government. While there might be proposals for federal taxes I seriously doubt there are. There is at this time no federal sales or use taxes so there would be little rationale to tax downloads.

To avoid sales taxes, although not use taxes, all a company needs to do is not have a brick and mortar presence in those states that tax downloads.




RE: Uncle Sam taxing?
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/4/2008 9:16:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
To avoid sales taxes, although not use taxes, all a company needs to do is not have a brick and mortar presence in those states that tax downloads.


You are referring to the legal concept of nexus. As per the discussion in the linked article cited, the federal government is considering eliminating this loophole. Legislation is currently being proposed that would do away with nexus.

In this respect the federal government is opening the door to widespread taxation of downloads.


RE: Uncle Sam taxing?
By JustTom on 9/4/2008 9:31:52 AM , Rating: 2
If nexus is removed it will allow states to tax downloads, not the federal government. Even if Congress acted to remove nexus, a dubious proposition since such removal does not have widespread support, it is debatable whether such action would have any lasting effect. The Supreme Court established the concept of nexus and would have final say on whether any legislative limits on the concept were consitutional. Each branch of the government is jealous of its powers and I doubt the Court would allow Congress to intrude on a matter it already decided.


Erm... not quite?
By foolsgambit11 on 9/4/2008 3:15:13 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Unless these entities ... properly compensate creators the creation process will decline.
I doubt it. The distribution process will decline. But these days, people can make music without ridiculous expenses for studio time. And indie labels should know that more than anyone. How much does it cost to produce a Mountain Goats album, excluding actual record pressing costs? The guy records with a cheap guitar and an old Casio keyboard using the built in microphone on an old tape recorder. And I happen to like it. Moving upscale, you can assemble a decent recording for a pretty reasonable price at home. And studio time isn't that expensive.

Imagine that the mass marketing of musical acts went out of business. People would still perform live. They would still record and distribute those recordings, possibly making money for them, possibly only drumming up support for live shows. And in fact, the creative process would probably increase - with a more fragmented listening audience, the demand for cover bands would go down, and people would actually listen to original music in bars instead. Some people might not go into music - the people who were really in it to make it big - but the people who are passionate about the music and performing would flourish.

People only get upset when they don't get something they expect. If people no longer expected revenue from recordings, but looked at the expense more like advertising, they'd adapt to a new system. To argue that the creative process would decline is to say that music was at a nadir for its entire existence up until the creating of the recording industry.

Of course, I have no expectation of my vision ever coming into being.




RE: Erm... not quite?
By maverick85wd on 9/4/2008 5:42:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And in fact, the creative process would probably increase


CORRECT, sir(or ma'am?)!
Perhaps then we'd have a good amount of music that's... well, good, instead of the industry crapping out tons of music that must be sorted through to find the stuff that's worth the trouble.

quote:
Moving upscale, you can assemble a decent recording for a pretty reasonable price at home.


A buddy of mine is an artist on his free time, and he recently bought a neat gadget for like 250 bucks that lets him hook up his instruments to his computer, where he can record, mix, edit, (or whatever it is he does), and do quite an impressive job.

I do think the recording industry has done a lot of good for music in general, but they're outdated. I really don't care to spend more than $5 on almost any CD out there, and 99 cents for a song is outrageous (without even getting into DRM and quality). The only reason they still get away with charging that much is because the current generation of music buyers are still used to the $15-20/CD days, which is what the labels are really mad about, because who is going to pay that price when downloads are free? If labels are hurting now, I feel bad for them when the younger generation (who download music without even questioning the morals of it) make up a much larger percentage of the buying populace.

Also, I think the term "piracy" is getting a little fuzzy. Piracy means downloading media, whether it's for personal use or to make copies and sell them for monetary gain. I think selling pirated media is a pretty despicable act, but I really can't make myself feel bad about downloading a few songs I heard on the radio or something - especially when I do actually buy music from artists I like.

It's really too bad the record companies don't realize how much money they could make if they reduced the price of a CD to around the $5 range. Price elasticity of demand tells me sales would more than compensate.

My $.02


I buy the CD I own it.
By Mitch101 on 9/4/2008 11:34:29 AM , Rating: 1
Open comments to the music industry.

If I buy the CD and rip tracks to my MP3 player or car I think it was wrong to call anyone a pirate for doing so. I am not sharing the music in any way shape or form and to put DRM onto the disc or tracks merely punishes those of us who purchased the music and paid for tracks most will never listen to. Purchasing the music CD is purely for my own enjoyment. Just stop it with the DRM you are punishing the wrong people. It is because of this that I no longer purchase CD's. Thank Sony Malware and DRM I am nearly done buying discs for good.

Seriously ask yourself where can you justify that DRM has succeeded? Name one outlet that DRM has succeeded in? I can tell you it has succeed in me not purchasing more than 2-3 discs a year as apposed to the 35-40 or so I would be purchasing. It has also succeed in making pirates money by selling products that circumvent DRM. Why continue pumping money into a technology that isn't working for what its intended to do and only hurting your sales?

Second is your pricing model for CD's. A movie is $4.99-$14.99 and includes a plethora of people to produce with a very large budget and includes additional bonus material as well as 5.1+ audio or better. Yet a music CD is priced as high if not higher than a movie and is nothing more in some cases than 4 people in a garage recording 2 track audio. Music CD's are severely over priced.

I will add that I don't believe Piracy is the reason for a lack of people purchasing music. When I was growing up all you had was the AM/FM radio. If I wanted to hear that song again I didnt have many places to catch it so I had to buy it. Today I have hundreds of music sources. AM/FM/HD Radio/Web STREAMS/XM/SERIUS/DIRECT TV etc. I really haven't had a need to purchase music because I have many more stations I can hear music being played. Not a good song on one station well I literally have hundreds more to choose from. I don't see the need to purchase much music with so many outlets for music to choose from.

Your a moron for over pricing Internet streams. Internet streams sound ok but are lousy compared to the original CD or other outlets like Direct TV/XM etc. If anything you should have limited the encoding rate and forced them to overlap songs so there is no pulling the entire song. But then this is just one outlet from the many now available.

Just as the HD-DVR and a movie channel subscription has killed me purchasing movies so has the massive source of ways I can listen to music without the need to purchase music. A XM/Serius sub and what do I need to purchase music for? My gym even plays good music and allows me to tap into multiple TV broadcasts using an FM radio. You have alienated your true clients with DRM and have priced yourselves out while adding so many sources for music its a wonder anyone purchases music today.

I am ok with downloading services but again don't punish me with DRM for buying a music track. DRM alienates those who purchase the music and again it doesn't seem to be stopping piracy so what's it good for?

Sorry but if I had to point to one item that is killing the sales of music its that I have hundreds of sources to hear music as apposed to the days of a handful of radio stations.




RE: I buy the CD I own it.
By maverick85wd on 9/4/2008 5:47:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will add that I don't believe Piracy is the reason for a lack of people purchasing music. When I was growing up all you had was the AM/FM radio. If I wanted to hear that song again I didnt have many places to catch it so I had to buy it. Today I have hundreds of music sources. AM/FM/HD Radio/Web STREAMS/XM/SERIUS/DIRECT TV etc.


That is an excellent point, and one I hadn't even considered... but I'm sure the RIAA includes royalties from those sources when it calculates the monetary losses sustained from music downloads. LOL!


Traveling Minstrels
By mikefarinha on 9/4/2008 12:30:29 PM , Rating: 3
Piracy might be a good thing... it will help musicians get back to their roots and become traveling minstrels singing about the wonders of far away places and legendary people!

And if they're good enough they just might get a few coins in their guitar cases!




how does it hurt independents
By omnicronx on 9/4/2008 10:14:33 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I download music from indie bands all the time, but I have to say that I would only listen to may 1 out of 10 bands again ever!

I don't know why anyone would ever pay 10 dollars an album for a crappy indie band that I have only heard a 30 second clip from or a song on the radio.

If the band is worth listening too, I will buy the album, if it is not, I will probably delete it, and never touch it again. Is it so wrong to only want to support artist that you find good?

Personally I think that this has helped independents more than anything, it gets their music out there. Instead of having individual scenes by city or area, we are now open to listen to music all around the world. I don't feel bad for bands that a crap, thinking they deserve their share, if they made good music, they would be making money.

As for other bands, I have had enough about the album sales, its a well known fact that in the music industry most of the money made by the artists is from going on tour and merchandise sales.

I have always said that the music industry made their own bed, they had every chance to open an online music store long before itunes was even thought of. As far as I can tell, they are still doing nothing to help their case, they expect everyone to go back to how it was in the 90's, and its just not going to happen, we were getting ripped off! Artists did not get a huge cut like they were saying, and although their margins have significantly dropped, they are still doing quite well all this considered.

I am not advocating piracy, I am just making a point and putting it out there, that the industry has done absolutely nothing other than complain, its been 10 years now since the revolution started, you would think they would have a game plan of some sorts by now.




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