backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 17 comment(s) - last by oTAL.. on Feb 21 at 7:47 PM

Where have we been, and where are we going for memory on the desktop

I didn't expect it, but there's already been a lot of hype with regard to DDR3 on Intel's Bearlake chipset. ChileHardware has a nice post regarding some of the finer points regarding Super Talents announcement, as well as the details here on DailyTech.  I've had a collection of thoughts on DDR3 for some time, so I suppose it's time for a rant.

How many people got burned in the transition from DDR1 to DDR2 -- remember DDR2-400 anyone?  Even DDR2-533 provided marginal, if any gains over DDR1. 

The transitions from DDR1 to DDR2 on both platforms had some key problems.  The Intel migration to DDR2 came with architecture and platform changes that hampered its performance.  The AMD migration to DDR2 came with no performance and very little price gains.

Everybody knows it: the original Intel Prescott was a lame duck.  Mature Socket 478 setups could easily outperform Socket 775 clock-for-clock, and the Socket 775 stuff cost more.  Poor thermal solutions (at the time), a new bus that the graphics manufacturers had not fully embraced (PCIe, which also didn't enhance performance but that's another blog), and then throw in the new DDR2 memory as well ... it's a wonder the initial DDR2 Intel platforms even got off the ground with that much baggage. 

Then you had the AMD AM2 transition with mistakes that should have been learned from Intel's transition repeated.  DDR2 memory prices were considerably lower at the AM2 launch, yet there were virtually no performance gains from the AM2 platform.  However, AMD's launch was significant in the fact that it unified the industry with a memory standard -- this was the only way DDR2 prices would ever decrease.

Intel and AMD customers had very little choice at the time when their respective companies transitioned to DDR2.  This is one way to push a new format, but is it the best?

To avoid the potential hazards of a poor DDR3 launch, the industry needs to do two things, or at least one very well. The first would be to bring significant performance gains; the second would be to bring significant pricing gains.

Though benchmarks for DDR3 are still a ways out, don't expect the initial DDR3 to come close to competing with DDR2.  JEDEC is already considering expanding the DDR2 specification to DDR-1066, but the initial speed grade for DDR3 is 800 MHz.  I won't comment on where DDR3 needs to be to provide a significant advantage over DDR2, but I can tell you 800 MHz and 1066 MHz is not it.

Getting to market with low prices on any new technology is a black art.  The industry needs initial shipments to get the cost down, but no market will buy such technology without a performance advantage.  With DDR2, prices did not flatten out until after AMD and Intel had switched away from DDR1.  Historically, the only way memory manufacturers offer competitive pricing is by waiting until there is considerable demand.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

My own take
By masher2 (blog) on 2/18/2007 10:09:09 AM , Rating: 3
Kris, I think you may be overlooking one of the key benefits here. Personally, I'm looking for DDR3 for its lower memory consumption, not increased performance. When you're trying to put 16GB in a workstation, DDR2 just doesn't cut it.

If that reduced memory usage comes with at least equal performance and an only marginal higher price, I'll be satisfied. The performance increases can wait till clock speeds ramp up.




RE: My own take
By yangyoning on 2/18/2007 12:44:00 PM , Rating: 1
i'am curious. How much the power efficiency DDR3 gained compare to ddr 2 (in percentage) Thx.


RE: My own take
By masher2 (blog) on 2/18/2007 2:48:28 PM , Rating: 2
The figures being quoted are roughly 40%, I believe.


RE: My own take
By Ringold on 2/19/2007 3:20:57 PM , Rating: 2
I think I like the sound of that migration path.

Workstation and server users get their energy-efficient product first, and being first generation, they could be stable but not performance kings.

A year down range, the technology is mature, costs are lower, and desktop users can buy some overclocking-class RAM. Volume spikes, costs driven even lower.

Why the hell Intel couldn't try similar paths instead of placing a gun to the markets head and trying to force things along, I don't know.


RE: My own take
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/19/2007 4:43:42 PM , Rating: 2
The lower power consumption is a big plus as well, in my opinion. But, I think its worth pointing out, the vast majority of people who will be using DDR3 initially will also be using 300W video cards.


RE: My own take
By sdsdv10 on 2/20/2007 10:28:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
the vast majority of enthusiasts (not people) who will be using DDR3 initially will also be using 300W video cards.


I don't think most people using DDR3 will be using 300W video cards. This type of thing is primarily driven by OEMs (Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, etc) and they will use 300-350W PSU and intergrated graphics. I don't have the statistics, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dell sold more DDR2 memory chips (inside PCs) than all the etailers on the internet combined. Enthusiasts drive the technology, OEMs drive the business (money) and sell the bulk of the hardware.


First DDR3 board
By Chillin1248 (blog) on 2/18/2007 7:13:30 AM , Rating: 3
VR-zone.com has the scoop on it:

quote:

Biostar TP35D3-A7 Deluxe Specifications

Socket LGA 775, ATX
Supports Intel® Core™ 2 Quad/Core™ 2 Duo/Celeron® 400 Series Processor
Intel® P35 + ICH9R
FSB 1333 MHz
Supports Dual Channel DDR3 800/1066 MHz
4 x DDR3 DIMM Memory Slots, Max. Supports up to 8GB Memory
1 x PCI-E x16, 3 x PCI-E x1, 2 x PCI Slots
8+2-Channel HD Audio, 12 x USB 2.0, 2 x E-SATAII 3Gb/s
6 x SATAII 3Gb/s Connectors With RAID, Dual GbE LAN


Biostar TP35D2-A7 Specifications
Socket LGA 775, ATX
Supports Intel® Core™ 2 Quad/Core™ 2 Duo/Celeron® 400 Series Processor
Intel® P35 + ICH9
FSB 1333 MHz
Supports Dual Channel DDR2 667/800 MHz
4 x DDR2 DIMM Memory Slots, Max. Supports up to 8GB Memory
1 x PCI-E x16, 1 x PCI-E x4, 1 x PCI-E x1, 3 x PCI Slots
8+2-Channel HD Audio, 12 x USB 2.0
4 x SATAII 3Gb/s Connectors, GbE LAN


Interesting to note that they have different boards for DDR2 and DDR3 unlike quoted in DT articles.

Pictures of the boards here:

http://vr-zone.com/?i=4684


-------
Chillin




RE: First DDR3 board
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/18/2007 3:06:07 PM , Rating: 2
The motherboards they posted are the same ones that were posted on ChileHardware a few days ago, which were the ones we posted on:

http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6061

Biostar tells me the DDR3 board is a prototype, but they will probably be one of the first to market.


RE: First DDR3 board
By Hyperlite on 2/18/2007 6:28:42 PM , Rating: 2
Take a look at the DDR3 board...what is with the funky power connectors? there is a 24pin, a Molex, and an 8pin.


RE: First DDR3 board
By Marcus Pollice (blog) on 2/20/2007 8:53:43 AM , Rating: 2
Nothing special here. The 24-pin ATX and 8-pin 12V connectors are standard on Intel-Boards nowadays and quite a lot of mobo manufacturers provide a molex near the PCIe slots to deliver independant power to the graphics slots.

Kinda useless, as it will still take the power from the 24-pin if the molex is not connected. Additionally power-hungy video cards have their own connectors. But they advertise it to make it a little bit more stable.


So then what did we learn?
By hellokeith on 2/18/2007 7:38:25 PM , Rating: 3
We learned that you always purchase a mature platform. Early adopters are simply attempting to validate their manhood, while the truly wise wait a half-to-full generation before diving into new technology.

My setup:
Pentium 4 3.2GHz HT on an Intel D875PBZ with dual channel DDR PC-3200 at 2-3-3-6. Fast with rock solid stability. No overclocking needed.. a PC I can count on as an audio workstation as well as gaming and media center.

I'm still waiting to see what Intel is going to do with the 975 chipset.. if it inherits any Bearlake functionality, I personally like to skip over C2D and DDR2 and go straight to Core 2 Quad and DDR3.




RE: So then what did we learn?
By Hyperlite on 2/19/2007 12:26:13 AM , Rating: 2
mmm....overclocking is never "needed." And any C2D system is likely to be just as stable as yours. And what would happen if it weren't for early adopters? nothing. the tech would not evolve.


RE: So then what did we learn?
By phusg on 2/20/2007 6:05:46 AM , Rating: 2
Overclocking never needed? One example: stuttering playback of 1080p video. Overclock your CPU/GPU and maybe it will go away.

Of course early adopters are needed. By definition every product has early adopters, i.e. the ones who buy it first. The trouble with the PC world is that people are too keen to be early adopters ("validating there manhood") and this encourages companies to release products earlier and earlier, effectively outsourcing the beta testing to the early adopters. This makes the R&D cheaper and these savings should be passed on to customers. Whether this happens?!?


By DeepThought86 on 2/19/2007 1:07:01 PM , Rating: 2
This is yet another reason why a monopoly hurts us. If it was the bad old days Intel would have forced the memory on us prematurely, at higher price and no performance gain. Here are some of Intel's notable attempts in the past:

Rambus - remember when Intel tried to force that on an unwilling industry?

AGP is good enough for all but the highest end cards, to this day - but Intel forced PCIe down our throats

IDE works without drivers with XP, SATA can kill you if your boot drive fails and your backup software doesnt detect the SATA controller on your motherboard. But Intel has had an anti-IDE vendetta for some time, and new motherboards usually only come with one IDE port - stupid!

PS2 connectors for Keyboard/mouse are universally recognized, but Intel wants to kill them off.

And it's us who pay for the "progress" of new technologies that are inconvenient, expensive and offer little gain except being shiny and new.




By oTAL (blog) on 2/21/2007 7:47:40 PM , Rating: 2
You could have chosen better examples...

AGP
Natural evolution and a positive one. A nVidia 8800 card would be bandwidth starved on AGP. Some lower end cards would require power connectors which are unnecessary with PCI-E. Serial technology more impervious to errors, more flexible, potencially cheaper and some other advantages... A good example of a similar, but more noticeable change is FSB to HT on the AMD side...
Was the change made before it was required? Yes, and that is a good thing.

IDE
Thank god! Better cables (initial connectors could be better but they improved), no more jumper hassles, external spec...
This was a GREAT change and a pretty painless one. It's a shame the optical drive adoption is taking so long or we could get rid of IDE for good. Again, serial came to replace outdated parallel conection. SO was outdated, but that's a normal thing, which can be worked around (sometimes it sucks but it's worth it....).

PS2
We want unified ports! If you can get rid of the PS2 ports on your laptop then you can have 2 more USB ports which can be used for mouse/keyboard or whatever you want! For the desktop user it doesn't really matter, but if you want the devices to be USB, the bewst way is to change the whole market... PS2 has its advantages, and I prefer it when available... feels smoother due to IRQs and polling, but that is something will be solved forgotten in no time. Still, I'll be glad when USB rules them all (and Wireless USB will be a nice adition).

Rambus
You are right indeed! May they burn in the deepest parts of hell and await for GWB's arrival there.

As for the better examples, they are mostly unadopted stuff, like Rambus memory. Off the top of my head BTX is a good example. The IA64 architecture is another (I believe it will have its place though - eventually). Fortunatly, the sector (IT manufacturers, both competitors - AMD - and partners - MB and case manufacturers amongst others) and the market (us and the average Joe) make the really bad choices go away...


but...but....
By Hyperlite on 2/18/2007 12:08:52 AM , Rating: 2
"The Intel migration to DDR2 came with architecture and platform changes that hampered its performance. The AMD migration to DDR2 came with no performance and very little price gains."

"but no market will buy such technology without a performance advantage."


well, regardless, i think it has been made apparent that there doesn't need to be a tangible advantage for a tech like this to catch on. obviously the enthusiast market has an effect, but when the prebuilts adopt DDR3, so will the rest of us. And considering the fact that bearlake supports DDR2 and DDR3, i don't think this will be nearly as painful a transition as PCIe or DDR->DDR2.





DDR3 RAM
By Kougar on 2/19/2007 4:18:28 AM , Rating: 2
I was one of those users that sat using a Northwood P4 up to the day I grabbed an E6300 and went to the moon, and I certainly did notice many of the points you made regarding DDR2 RAM, and I'd agree on many points.

I think some of your points are exactly why Intel took care to stress they were only introducing DDR3 on their top-end enthusiast X38 and not the rest of the chipset versions. Price is certainly not one of the main factors in the segment I think Intel is targeting, which is why they are targeting it first and foremost. Also I like to think it's fairly obvious that DDR3-800 and 1006mhz RAM won't exactly offer much other than some significant power/heat reductions... I think it was at CeBIT early last year there were working DDR3-1,333mhz RAM modules on display.

I'm sure you noticed neither nVidia nor ATI will even offer a board using DDR1 based RAM anymore, even on the bottom of the barrel card. It'd only a matter of time before history repeats itself yet again with DDR4 memory for the desktop.




"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." -- Sony BMG attorney Jennifer Pariser

















botimage
Copyright 2009 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki