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Osama bin Laden was a radical Islamic jihadist who rose to prominence in the 1980s. The son of a wealthy Saudi businessman, bin Laden was trained by the U.S. to fight invading Soviet forces in Afghanistan.  (Source: Rag Bag)

Mr. bin Laden became America's most wanted criminal when he killed over 3,000 people in the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks by his jihadist organization, Al Qaeda.  (Source: AP Photo)

President Obama announced that he his ordered operation had successfully killed bin Laden. The announcement, which came Monday morning, was backed by DNA tests on bin Laden's corpse that verified his identity with 99.9 percent certainty. Mr. bin Laden was buried at sea to prevent memorials to his martyrdom. The burial was in accordance with Islamic tradition.  (Source: White House via YouTube)
Modern technology played an intimate role in historic anti-terrorism black-op

On Monday morning in Pakistan (Sunday in U.S. time) U.S. Navy Seals received the go-ahead from U.S. President Barack Obama to carry out a critical operation that will go down in the history books.  Storming a a mansion compound outside the Pakistani capital of Islamabad, the U.S. special operatives killed infamous Al Qaeda terrorist Osama bin Laden, 54, along with other family members.

Bin Laden had been hunted by the U.S. for years after the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole and the even more brazen attacks on September 11, 2001 that killed over 3,000 Americans in Washington D.C. and New York City and left more than 6,000 wounded.

The terrorist leader had managed to elude the U.S. for over a decade before the latest developments.  During President George W. Bush's presidency, special forces reportedly had bin Laden trapped in Afghanistan, but did not receive a "kill" order from the President in time, allowing the famed terrorist kingpin to escape.

This time around there would be no such luck for bin Laden.  But he might have escaped yet again, had he only checked Twitter feeds on the web.

I. Twitter Users Catch Wind of the Raid Early

Early Monday Sohaib Athar, a software consultant who was "taking a break from the rat-race by hiding in the mountains with his laptops", noticed helicopters hovering over the region -- an unusual sight.

He posted on Twitter under the name "ReallyVirtual":

Helicopter hovering above Abbottabad at 1AM (is a rare event).

Soon after he updated:

A huge window shaking bang here in Abbottabad Cantt. I hope its not the start of something nasty :-S

It appears that Mr. Athar spotted the helicopters before the raid.  But fortunately (or unfortunately for bin Laden) nobody at the terrorist's compound seemed to spot the internet postings in time to evacuate the compound before U.S. forces snuck in, surrounded the compound, and initiated a furious fire-fight.

Later a post reveals that one of the American helicopters appears to have crashed due to some kind of technical difficulties or enemy fire.  The post states:

The abbottabad helicopter/UFO was shot down near the Bilal Town area, and there's report of a flash. People saying it could be a drone.

No American casualties have thus far been reported.

In retrospect the posts stand as an insightful footnotes to this historic event.  They also illustrate the growing transparency provided by the web and the difficulty in conducting stealth operations in the internet-era.  And last, but not least, they offer a blow to conspiracy theorists who are claiming in some forums that the "raid" and "killing" were fabricated to boost the President's approval rating.

II. DNA, Biometrics Verify With 99 Percent Certainty That Corpse was bin Laden's

The attack reportedly killed not only bin Laden, but several family members. It was of the utmost importance during the attack that the U.S. forces verify the corpse of Osama bin Laden to prevent confusion and doubts in the international community.

To do so, they used both biometric analysis of facial and body features and an in-depth full DNA analysis.  The tests confirmed with 99.9 percent certainty that one of the corpses recovered in the aftermath of the mansion shootout was bin Laden's.

According to U.S. government sources, bin Laden had not engaged in plastic surgery efforts to disguise himself as some news outlets had erroneously reported.

President Obama said that U.S. forces were tipped off months ago by a courier who had been transporting materials to and from the compound to top Al Qaeda operatives.  Following the lead, they wiretapped the compound and verified that Osama bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders were residing within.  The President almost called in a bombing strike in the February-March period, but called it off at the last minute, deciding that it was too important to directly recover the corpse.

By verifying the body, President Obama and the U.S. Armed Forces have eliminated doubts of the terrorist's survival in the minds of all but the most harden conspiracy theorists.

Despite his horrific crimes against humanity, the U.S. forces reportedly respected Islamic tradition, giving bin Laden a burial at sea that was carefully carried out in accordance to Islamic customs.  The decision to bury the terrorist at sea was reportedly made to prevent any shrine to his martyrdom from being erected.

III. Concluding Thoughts

While a black-op of sorts, the raid on the bin Laden was backed by some serious military firepower that was also interesting from a tech perspective.

Patrolling the skies were an army of robotic drone aircraft -- a technology that increasingly is becoming a fundamental basis of America's war-force.  Waiting outside the Pakistani airspace were a squadron of fixed-wing fighter jets and a group of MH-53 Pave Low and HH-60 Pave Hawk helicopters packed with troops.

The extra forces were designed to provide air and ground support, should the Navy Seals encounter an unexpected level of resistance.

But in the end, the result was an anticlimactic, relatively brief affair.  Outgunned by the well-trained American operatives bin Laden -- who himself had received military training from U.S. operatives during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan -- was gunned down.

Thus closed a dramatic epic of American history. 

President Obama comments on the developments in a White House video message, uploaded late Sunday (U.S. time -- Monday in Pakistan's time) on YouTube.



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Helicopter Crash
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 1:23:00 PM , Rating: 5
Most places are reporting now that the helicopter crash wasn't the result of it being hit, but rather a result of ground effects having to do with the 16 ft tall wall around the compound. The helicopter was supposed to hover over the compound providing vision and support for the troops on the ground, but the sheer walls caused it to lose lift and 'fall' to the ground inside the compound. There was no serious damage and no injuries but because of the same effect the helicopter couldn't take off and the SEALS destroyed it on the way out to prevent it falling into Pakistani hands. A third helicopter, on backup in case this exact kind of thing happened was in position to pick up the troops on the ground and get them out of there.

Hard to think the entire operation was done within a half mile of a Pakistani army base, without the permission of the Pakistani government, and without the Pakistani's even catching wind of it until the helicopter was destroyed on the way out. And even then they couldn't get planes scrambled fast enough to do anything, even if they had wanted to.




RE: Helicopter Crash
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: Helicopter Crash
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 1:39:14 PM , Rating: 5
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676

quote:
Another senior US official said that no intelligence had been shared with any country, including Pakistan, ahead of the raid.

"Only a very small group of people inside our own government knew of this operation in advance," the official said.


http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-kil...

The Pakistani government was informed only after the raid was successful.

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/02/bin-laden-operation...

The operation was conducted by US troops alone (according to a Pakistani official).

There has been speculation for years that bin Laden had at the very least sources high up in the Pakistani command chain; even some talk about active support coming from the Pakistani president, who has always helped the US just enough to prevent conflict and not a bit more. The fact that he has been hiding out at a compound less than 100 yards from the gates of a military base would sure seem to indicate that he didn't fear the Pakistani military very much; unless he was relying on the sheer audacity of it to keep him safe.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 2:03:42 PM , Rating: 5
I'd say if a foreign power conducted a major raid 100 yards from the gates of West Point, someone would at least hear about it before the attackers were packing up to go home.

My point was more about just how quick the raid was than anything. Less than forty minutes on the ground by all accounts. That's forty minutes to land, take out four defenders, sort what's left into combatants and noncombatants, provide first aid for the wounded noncombatants, bring in an emergency third helicopter, load everyone up into the choppers, set explosives on the downed helicopter, and take off.

Whoever organized this raid is damn good at their job. It was a dangerous, complex operation being done without the host countries knowledge, literally on the doorstep of it's largest military training center. And, while it didn't go flawlessly, the backup plans covered perfectly. A job very, very well done.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By Mitch101 on 5/2/2011 3:04:00 PM , Rating: 1
Video: A Silent Rotor Blade Paves the Way for Super-Stealth Choppers
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-02/v...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By 91TTZ on 5/2/2011 4:53:29 PM , Rating: 1
What does this have to do with anything? The helicopters we use do not have this, and the jet engines in helicopters are loud regardless of the rotors.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By headbox on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By jjmcubed on 5/2/2011 5:39:29 PM , Rating: 1
Doppler effect can be weird when the helicopter isn't 5k feet in the air. Meaning you'd hear it approx the same time you see it, unless you know which direction it is coming from.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By CharonPDX on 5/2/2011 9:01:43 PM , Rating: 1
I don't know about the ones that were used in this; but an Apache can be damned quiet if the pilot is willing to use more fuel. (Yes, there is irony there - by changing the rotor pitch in such a way that you need MORE power to hold your hover/flight, you actually get quieter.)

I remember doing a double-take seeing an Apache landing about 200-300 yards away, but not hearing it over the general background noise, which wasn't all that loud. They can't fly in that mode for very long (they do have to be at fairly low lift settings, which usually means only while descending,) but they can fly VERY quietly. Also, if approaching a target, they can approach quickly, changing the flight dynamics to be quieter right near the end while still moving forward quickly.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Mitch101 on 5/3/2011 4:30:14 PM , Rating: 3
My earlier post was rated down so lets try this again.

That Downed US Aircraft Was a Secret Stealth Helicopter
http://gizmodo.com/#!5798199/that-downed-us-aircra...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By InsaneGain on 5/2/2011 2:49:18 PM , Rating: 1
After they secured the compound, the SEAL team also had to completely search the area for any items of intelligence value. The period of time between insertion and control of the compound must have been very quick.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Phoque on 5/2/2011 6:44:15 PM , Rating: 1
Now, we want more details and a video game to live back the moment. I'd like to have my shot at Ben Laden too.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By voodoochile123 on 5/3/2011 12:36:32 AM , Rating: 1
If you really want to relive it, buy the game called Arma2 and Operation Arrowhead. It's as close to the real thing as it gets. You could make this exact mission very accurately, and no doubt someone else will already be making it at the moment.

And besides that, it's one of the best games I've ever played.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 1:55:24 PM , Rating: 3
I have no idea what kind of news you've been watching. But I think you need to find a new channel...

quote:
Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on Monday accused the U.S. of violating his country’s sovereignty by sending in special forces to kill Osama bin Laden.

“American troops coming across the border and taking action in one of our towns, that is Abbottabad, is not acceptable to the people of Pakistan. It is a violation of our sovereignty,” Mr. Musharraf told CNN-IBN, an Indian news channel.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/2/mus...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/2011 1:56:35 PM , Rating: 1
I might of just heard wrong. I was listening at 2am after programming for 12 hours. I just could of sworn though that they worked with the Pakistani government oh well


RE: Helicopter Crash
By rcc on 5/2/2011 4:32:45 PM , Rating: 2
The early reports I heard said the same.

However, subsequent reports are as above.

Just mentally file it with a superceded by the attached flag.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By futrtrubl on 5/2/2011 5:53:05 PM , Rating: 5
Donald Trump demands to see Osama's death certificate!


RE: Helicopter Crash
By PaterPelligrino on 5/2/2011 9:24:00 PM , Rating: 2
Tip of the hat to futrtrubl - brilliant comment!


RE: Helicopter Crash
By ekv on 5/3/2011 3:10:55 AM , Rating: 3
Nah. He'd be better served by demanding the U.S. stop giving $18B/yr to Pakistan ... evidently for the sole purpose of having Musharraf verbally abuse/berate us.

Jokes about phone-sex aside, what the sam-hell do we get for that money? seriously, they don't deserve that kind of cash and the U.S. can put it to better use here [like paying down our debts].


RE: Helicopter Crash
By myhipsi on 5/3/2011 9:27:00 AM , Rating: 2
For that money, the U.S. gets relative stability (and control) in the region. Otherwise Pakistan would likely be in extremists hands, and with their nuclear arsenal things could go very badly.

Agree or disagree, that is the reason for the military aid.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By ekv on 5/3/2011 3:56:36 PM , Rating: 1
I understand what you're saying. However, such a statement is tantamount to hush-money or blackmail. We are not getting our moneys worth and it sets a bad precedent. Others will expect the same.

Instead of trying to dissect the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, let me look at in a different light. We already have a presence in the region. I would argue that troops in Afghanistan give us more "relative stability (and control) in the region." Further, there is the opportunity to start economic development in Afghanistan ... they do have oil reserves. IIRC, on par with Libya, and as you know 'Libya sweet' is rather coveted on the open market.

Use aggressive diplomacy on Pakistan to tie them up. [Think ... move Hillary over there, or at least threaten 8] Perhaps that'll 'buy' enough time for Afghanistan to develop. And we know how porous the border tween the two are. News travels. Especially if a brother or cousin is sporting a new turban or sandals. ["Hey bro, check out my Nike Air sandals ..."]

Meanwhile, you've saved $18B/yr and your military, which is going to be there for the next 50 years anyway, is essentially a security detail to allow economic activity to continue (which helps pay for the security). World-wide heroin supply goes down, no more need to farm labor-intensive opiate-of-the-masses when you can easily make twice the dough assembling Apple phones. Arnold Schwarzenegger rides the body-building craze into a billion dollar industry. Etc.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Dorkyman on 5/3/2011 11:58:36 PM , Rating: 2
I heard $3.5B last year, $3B this year.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MrBlastman on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 2:08:36 PM , Rating: 5
The bottom line is that the Pakistani government was double dealing under the table. They knew full well where Bin Laden was and had no intention of handing him over. They wanted to give the impression that they were helping us in order to get money. Who do you think built that compound so close to the military base in the first place?

As far as I'm concerned, that entire government needs to be eliminated and all aid cut off.

It'll be interesting to see how they attempt to spin getting their hands caught in the cookie jar.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MrBlastman on 5/2/2011 2:24:17 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Pakistan has been using us for years, just like the whole darned region has been.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By callmeroy on 5/3/2011 9:32:07 AM , Rating: 1
True. But don't fool yourself that we (USA) don't use other nations , or haven't in the past for that matter...such is the world of politics...real politics.

The BS interviews aired on US tv networks and printed in US newspapers is the fluff side of politics that we see...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By BZDTemp on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 2:21:25 PM , Rating: 5
He does not have a point what so ever. Their government, including PM, were taking billions in US AID moneys in exchange for their assistance in fighting terrorism. They double dealt on purpose. They knew full well that Bin Laden was there, and knew where that compound was. You REALLY think that a compound with 12-13ft walls with barb wire are going to exist right next to military bases just outside the capital without the government knowing who is living there?!?!

We didn't tell them because if we did, Bin Laden would have been gone by the time we got there.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By BZDTemp on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 2:47:41 PM , Rating: 2
I would say that harboring terrorists violates international law, and so does accepting AID money to be used in corrupt ways. Therefore, its no longer a violation of their sovereignty.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By BZDTemp on 5/2/2011 3:19:30 PM , Rating: 1
You "would say" but what makes you the judge of that?

And even if we say Pakistan violated international laws then if that makes sending in troops and killing people okay I think the special forces of the world are in for a busy time.

Take for instance the many international law violations performed by the US in Guatanamo. By you standard that would then make it justified send people into the US and kill people. Or if someone decides that our F-16's bombing and killing a son of Gadaffi and three grand children was a violation it would be then okay for them go after people here. Surely we do not want that.

We want the world to become a place of safety and democracy so we need to walk the walk and not take the easy route. Winning the war is "easy" compared to winning the peace.

Making an enemy of Pakistan would not be fruitful. For many it may be thought to be just like Afghanistan but it's a very different place fx. there are maybe 28 mill. people in Afghanistan but 170 mill. in Pakistan.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Keeir on 5/2/2011 2:52:30 PM , Rating: 4
Errr... I am not so sure the US violated international laws.

I would need to read pretty carefully any agreements signed between the US and Pakistan about cooperation on fighting terrorism.

Its not like the US rode in a snatched an unknown target for unknown reasons.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By snakeInTheGrass on 5/2/2011 4:14:32 PM , Rating: 4
So given that the Pakistani governmnet / ISI has ties to various terror groups, has supposedly tipped them off and fed them intel in the past, has had bin Laden living in the suburbs of the capital in a conspicuous compound...

Whatever. Obama promised he would send troops in to get bin Laden, and that's what he did. I remember the Republican hand-wringing during the campaign when he made that statement. Hey, now bin Laden is dead and the Pakis and whoever else can whine all they want.

Though really, it's most likely the public whining to make sure they look like they care, not because they are inclined to do anything about this 'violation'. As people have pointed out, they've gotten billions in aid/bribe money to either help or at least get out of the way, it's just that they have to at least pretend they're not completely impotent to their own people. (And that's impotent to prevent the US from carrying something like this out as well as impotent to reign in the militants in their own ranks...)


RE: Helicopter Crash
By SunTzu on 5/2/2011 8:03:13 PM , Rating: 3
The US has rendered/kidnapped atleast one german national and held him in one of the CIA "secret prisons" for an extended amount of time, how is that not the same as if the germans had kidnapped an american national?


RE: Helicopter Crash
By snakeInTheGrass on 5/2/2011 9:35:18 PM , Rating: 1
How is it not the same? Well, because the nationalities are reversed, because the Germans don't have a CIA... oh, did you mean morally equivalent?

Frankly, there are probably some Germans who wish they could grab terror suspects and interrogate them as well considering how many of these fanatics have been hanging out in German cities, but given the instant cries of 'Nazi' should they try it, you can bet no German politician would dare to do so.

So that's how it's different. :)


RE: Helicopter Crash
By 91TTZ on 5/2/2011 4:58:02 PM , Rating: 3
The difference is that Pakistan willingly allowed the US to conduct military operations inside their borders, they never denied that Bin Laden was anything but a terrorist, and they claimed that he wasn't in Pakistan anyway.

I don't see any violation here.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 2:18:12 PM , Rating: 4
It seems like Pakistan has no idea how to react to this. One official says that Pakistan had nothing to do with the raid, the next says that they we deeply involved in the 'joint operation'. To me, given that the US has said repeatedly that they weren't involved, the second sounds like someone saying "Of course we were involved, the alternative is to admit that the US just conducted a massive raid on our sovereign territory; and that is just something we couldn't ignore. So we're not going to ignore it, because it never happened, because we knew about it all along *wink*"


RE: Helicopter Crash
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 2:24:06 PM , Rating: 2
It more less sounds like they got their hands caught in the cookie jar and are making up excuses for when the US government finds out who in the Pakistani government were hiding Bin Laden.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By JediJeb on 5/2/2011 2:51:00 PM , Rating: 3
Considering the last report I heard was that the Navy Seal Team confiscated several computers and cell phones I imagine there are many in the Pakistani government sweating right now. If I were the US government I wouldn't use that information to go after them, I would just find a way to make it all public so the whole world knows up front who was helping him and see where their political careers go from there. These people wanted the praise from both sides, let them see the other side of things for once.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By fredgiblet on 5/2/2011 4:18:42 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I would just find a way to make it all public so the whole world knows up front who was helping him


Wikileaks?


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Astral Abyss on 5/2/2011 3:13:16 PM , Rating: 3
Why should I care what some "former" president of Pakistan thinks? He doesn't even live in the country anymore... Besides, I didn't know former politicans forced out of office spoke for their countries?


RE: Helicopter Crash
By cmdrdredd on 5/2/2011 4:08:00 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I have no idea what kind of news you've been watching. But I think you need to find a new channel... quote: Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on Monday accused the U.S. of violating his country’s sovereignty by sending in special forces to kill Osama bin Laden. “American troops coming across the border and taking action in one of our towns, that is Abbottabad, is not acceptable to the people of Pakistan. It is a violation of our sovereignty,” Mr. Musharraf told CNN-IBN, an Indian news channel. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/2/mus...


The response should be. Next time don't harbor known and wanted terrorists. We don't.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Iaiken on 5/3/2011 2:58:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
don't harbor known and wanted terrorists. We don't.


Oh sure we do! Only they are our terrorists.

Jamal Ahmed Mohamed al-Fadl was a low ranking deputy in Egyptian Islamic Jihad. He is currently being sheltered by the US government at considerable expense after being given a few million dollars in exchange for testimony.

The problem is, the value of his testimony is highly questionable because of the fact that he embezzled $110,000+ from bin Laden's operations. He was later confronted by bin Laden to make restitution, but instead he fled and sought US protection. There are assertions from numerous international intelligence agencies (CSIS, MI5, BND) that his information was fabricated and that he simply told the CIA what they wanted to hear in exchange for protection and money.

Now you'll notice that I didn't mention al-Qaeda... That's because it didn't exist at the time Fadl entered into CIA custody in 1996. Almost the entire characterization of al-Queda is sourced from this low-ranking member of questionable motive. There has been no evidence to date released that corroborates his testimony to this end, in fact, most of what has become known is quite the opposite.

At no time before September 11th did bin Laden or Zawahiri ever use 'al-Queda' as a name for their entire organization. He only started using it after he found out that is what the US media was calling them. Previous writings, audio tape and video from the leadership had always addressed the group as 'Egyptian Islamic Jihad', 'al-Jihad' or 'Islamic Jihad'. All previous mention of al-Queda ('the base') was actually directed at the training bases themselves and not the group.

The point was to make al-Queda into a new 'the Mafia', or 'the Communists', to create them as an identifiable group. This would allow them to try individuals like bin Laden and Zawahiri in absentia under FEMA laws for being the so-called leaders.

The problem is not whether they are evil men, I would say that is indisputable. The problem is that the 'al-Queda' people have come to believe in, that of a far reaching cohesive organization with terror cells all around the world at the beck and call of bin Laden, is a fabrication. The reality is that of a loose association of Islamist militants that plan their own operations and only looked to bin Laden for funding.

Even when you look at the 9/11 plotters with scrutiny, you discover that Khalid Sheikh Muhamma planned the attack almost completely independent of bin Laden and only came to him some time in late 1999 for further funding as his groups own money was running out. This is supported by the following CIA Financial Crimes Enforcement Network quote:

quote:
We have found no evidence that the Hamburg cell members received funds from al Qaeda earlier than late 1999. Before then, they appear to have supported themselves.


In many ways I think the death of bin Laden is only a minor setback because he wasn't really their commander, just a convenient financier. The group started under Zawahiri's control and now it's back under his control.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Skywalker123 on 5/4/2011 2:16:17 AM , Rating: 2
You're forgetting our terrorist, Luis Posada Carriles


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MrBlastman on 5/2/2011 1:56:14 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, that is somewhat suspect--the Pakistani Military not taking note. However, our spec ops team could have been using subsonic ammunition along with supressors to minimize the noise from firing. Helecopters aren't quiet though... especially Blackhawks (I assume it was a Blackhawk but I'm not sure).

Typically at low altitude, ground effect is very beneficial for a rotorcraft but, as many helo pilots might point out, the danger of entering a vortex ring state is _very_ real. If a helocopter tries to descend and has little to no horizontal directional movement, the blades can essentially "stall" causing the aircraft to fall out of the sky. The 16 foot wall could theoretically exacerbate this problem. Yes, this happens even with the blades beating at 100% power with the collective fully engaged.

There is one way out of it, however, and it requires dipping the nose (or sides) and gaining some form of speed in a horizontal direction to allow the blades to "bite" back into lift. If the chopper is low to the ground, it is very hard to do anything about it at that point. Unfortunately, most of the general public fail to realize just how dangerous low-speed helo flight (and hovering) really is. It is easy for someone to say--well just maintain altitude; if you are low to the ground and against a high wall like this one was, most likely the air currents are not nearly as stable and it is very easy for a helocopter to gain/lose altitude simply from the surroundings and completely separate from control input from the pilot (collective and cyclic). As such, the pilots are constantly fighting against this at all times.

Hovering is an extremely concentration-oriented task.

Now, as for the body--it perturbs me quite a bit that they dumped it at see. Yes, I can understand that he was a Muslim--however, he killed thousands of Americans. He lived his life like a Barbarian... a stravag dog. As such, he should have been treated accordingly. They should have cut his head off and stuck it on a pike or stake and put it on the White House lawn, Ground Zero or in the arms of the Statue of Liberty.

As for the DNA evidence--I find it hard to imagine that they confirmed it in less than a 24-hour period. I'd also like to see pictures. I really wanted to see his head on a pike! I also really want to believe this is true.

Either way--today is a great day for our armed forces and my hats go off to all our personnel and I salute them all for their hard work and efforts!


RE: Helicopter Crash
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/2011 2:01:22 PM , Rating: 2
Speaking of armed forces I had a bet with a friend about which branch would bring him in. He said Marines him being a jarhead lol. I said nope Navy Seals. He owes me 20 bucks.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Ammohunt on 5/2/2011 2:28:23 PM , Rating: 3
There are some brances of special forces they would never give credit too becasue they officially do not exist. I Doubt the SEALS had much to do with the kill. My Guess is Delta(described as CIA Para-militaries) did the entry and SEALS provided security of the lading site.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By ClownPuncher on 5/2/2011 2:55:09 PM , Rating: 2
I think everyone involved for the past decade is owed some credit, too. Mission accomplished.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Ammohunt on 5/3/2011 2:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
That goes without saying ;)


RE: Helicopter Crash
By InsaneGain on 5/2/2011 3:34:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My Guess is Delta(described as CIA Para-militaries) did the entry and SEALS provided security of the lading site.

You could be right. They decided to do a snatch-and-grab operation instead of an air strike, and Delta Force is trained for specifically for this.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By 91TTZ on 5/2/2011 5:08:10 PM , Rating: 2
The CIA paramilitaries probably refer to spies that we had inside Pakistan. They probably were the ones that reported his whereabouts and the Navy SEALS were the ones who actually did the raid.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By nolisi on 5/2/2011 2:33:30 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Now, as for the body--it perturbs me quite a bit that they dumped it at see. Yes, I can understand that he was a Muslim--however, he killed thousands of Americans. He lived his life like a Barbarian... a stravag dog. As such, he should have been treated accordingly. They should have cut his head off and stuck it on a pike or stake and put it on the White House lawn, Ground Zero or in the arms of the Statue of Liberty.


This wasn't about showing respect to him, but rather showing respect to the Muslim world. This was to emphasize the fact that the war on terror is not a war on Islam.

With the burial at see, a good number of things are accomplished:
1) Shown that that the American execution of justice is not a vengeful, savage affair
2) Safeguarded as best as possible the lives of both civilian and miltary Americans by not enflaming supporters and sympathizers of bin Laden and believers of Islam
3) Proven that Americans have a respect for the traditions of other faiths, even when a subject of that religion did not have respect for the traditions Americans (in particular, I don't think anyone sees the demolition of the twin towers as a proper burial for those who died at ground zero)

I understand that there were probably several levels of constraints over this time sensitive operation- but I find it hard to imagine with the expert training in our special ops forces that it was impossible to arrest him and bring him back alive. That we he could have been tried and recieved justice in full view of the world.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Solandri on 5/2/2011 3:12:32 PM , Rating: 3
4) Denied OBL's supporters a location or site which they could use as a rallying point via pilgrimages for a martyr's resting place. It's the quintessential "burial in an unmarked grave" without the negativity of deliberately failing to mark a grave you bury someone in.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By ekv on 5/2/2011 3:20:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
arrest him and bring him back alive. That we he could have been tried and recieved justice in full view of the world.
Short of setting your "phasers on stun" capture is not easy. Sure, use a ton of flash-bangs, non-lethal projectiles or even sub-sonic rounds to the limbs, etc. Still no guarantee. A bullet to the head though....

Of course, suppose you did manage to capture. Then you get claims of unjust treatment, years of trials and a forum for O. Bin Laden to state his case -- I'm sure Eric Holder would argue, again!, for trials to be held in New York City. There is also the possibility to use water-boarding on him. Personally, I think it's relatively humane and the extracted information provably has saved lives. What do you think about it though?

Then IF he were found guilty -- given the Holder Justice Dept., that's a a big "if" -- do you execute him? Imagine the negative PR from that. Would at least undo points 1 & 2 (and partially 3). [N.B. the irony, since execution is something that is respected and understood in Islam].

So even though there are pluses to capture, the negatives are potentially huge and I'm not convinced this administration would ever go against risk aversion [though perhaps desperation has something to do with the equation].


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MrBlastman on 5/2/2011 4:07:24 PM , Rating: 1
I think those are all great points. In fact, right after 9-11 I defended Islam quite a bit. However, since then, I've become jaded to the "Cult of Islam" and as such have zero respect for it nowadays. The oppression of their women is probably one of the greatest things that I have against his barbaric culture. There is zero room for religion in the institution of Government. They should forever remain separate.

As such, sensibilities and respectfulness be darned, I still would love to see his head on a pike.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By delphinus100 on 5/2/2011 8:23:53 PM , Rating: 1
Indeed. This is not unlike the way the Glomar Explorer recovered a large portion of the sunken Soviet submarine K-129. The remains of the crew were re-buried at sea, in exactly the same ceremony the Soviet Navy would have conducted for them, the entire affair filmed so that whenever the operation became public (which was rather sooner than expected), it could be demonstrated to the Soviet government and people that the remains of their fallen sailors were treated with respect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU3zVz3i_r4

In the current case, we want to continue to show that our problem is with terrorists, not Islam itself.

Oh, and burial at sea, and not having a specific grave site for BinLaden that could become a 'shrine' for his followers to rally around, doesn't hurt, either...

And I'm quite content that he lived up to his promise no not be taken alive. The question of civil trials for those at Guantanamo is tough enough, imagine the Feds vs. the city and State of New York (not to mention the District of Columbia and Pennsylvania) all wanting a piece of him for deaths he conspired to commit in their jurisdiction...while Al Qaeda promises, threatens and swears to do anything to free him? (and just try to find 12 truly neutral jurors, I dare you) It would've been a very big, very expensive circus.

This way, they can't even hope to get his corpse back, no matter what they do. Let them threaten the Deep Blue Sea into coughing him back up.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Adonlude on 5/3/2011 2:13:17 PM , Rating: 1
Death was crucial. It is simple, cheap, wastes no money in the courts and most Importantly takes his voice away. 1 round M855 5.56mm to the head, $0.25, problem solved.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By vortmax2 on 5/2/2011 3:15:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As for the DNA evidence--I find it hard to imagine that they confirmed it in less than a 24-hour period.


My brother owns a company that sells equipment that will indentify DNA in the field easily within 24hrs...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By MrBlastman on 5/2/2011 3:37:10 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting. Is it costly? (not that it matters in this case) I've always wondered why it usually takes a week or two with conventional testing versus faster ways like you mention are not used.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By vortmax2 on 5/2/2011 3:56:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, expensive, but obviously worth the price for quick field testing. I've heard that clients are mostly military related...makes sense.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By SPOOFE on 5/3/2011 1:39:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've always wondered why it usually takes a week or two with conventional testing versus faster ways like you mention are not used.

Possibly because there's not as much a hurry in most cases of DNA testing? Take a crime lab, for instance; they might have a significant backlog of evidence they're processing through.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By delphinus100 on 5/2/2011 8:27:04 PM , Rating: 2
And I believe they already have samples from some of his known relatives for comparison...


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Iaiken on 5/2/2011 4:48:12 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
especially Blackhawks (I assume it was a Blackhawk but I'm not sure).


All reports seem to indicate that they were modified MH-60K Black Hawks designed for low altitude night flights using hyper-spectral imaging. These were likely flown by the army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment.

Apparently the SEALS and flight crews had been practicing on a replica of the compound at Bagram Air Base since the start of April.

quote:
They should have cut his head off and stuck it on a pike or stake and put it on the White House lawn, Ground Zero or in the arms of the Statue of Liberty.


Now whose the savage? I think that the adherence to Muslim burial rites demonstrated the professionalism expected of the US military. By treating the body of even the most hated man in the world with dignity and respect for his observances, they are left standing on the moral high-ground.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By snakeInTheGrass on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: Helicopter Crash
By InsaneGain on 5/2/2011 3:29:42 PM , Rating: 2
Those helicopter pilots are experts that train specifically for rapid special operation insertions and extractions. I highly doubt they are not very aware of the conditions that lead to vortex ring state and the dangers of various obstacles. I think it is much more likely that the helicopter was hit by small-arms-fire or an RPG, lost hydraulics or something and it had to make a hard landing.


RE: Helicopter Crash
By Solandri on 5/2/2011 8:41:28 PM , Rating: 2
I doubt we'll ever know for sure. At the altitude they were at (indeed, for all the occupants to have survived uninjured), all the pilots will be able to report is that one moment the helo was flying ok, the next they'd crashed into the ground. No clue if it was a vortex ring, enemy fire, or if the rotor hit a tree branch (they were flying at night with night vision scopes).

So there's really not much point debating it. The only way to know for sure would be a forensic examination of the wreckage. Wreckage which has probably already been looted and dispersed.


Thank God our troops did not die due a TWIT !
By Beenthere on 5/2/2011 1:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
More proof that irresponsible behavior (Twitting), could have been deadly to our troops.




RE: Thank God our troops did not die due a TWIT !
By Spuke on 5/2/2011 1:47:19 PM , Rating: 2
Unless Bin Laden was monitoring all the twits on earth, there was no chance of him finding out that one particular twit would have been about the raid.


By delphinus100 on 5/2/2011 8:36:36 PM , Rating: 2
According to ABC News at least, one of the many things that drew attention to his location (such as burning their trash, rather than putting it out for collection, like everyone else in the area), was its lack of either telephone or Internet connection...


By Solandri on 5/2/2011 8:43:43 PM , Rating: 3
So they were using voip over a neighbor's unsecured wifi?


The Genius and the Idiot.....
By ajoyner777 on 5/2/2011 3:36:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
During President George W. Bush's presidency, special forces reportedly had bin Laden trapped in Afghanistan, but did not receive a "kill" order from the President in time, allowing the famed terrorist kingpin to escape


quote:
The President (Obama) almost called in a bombing strike in the February-March period, but called it off at the last minute, deciding that it was too important to directly recover the corpse.


Two men do the same thing with different results, and one is painted as a hero, while the other as an idiot. Biased much?




By cmdrdredd on 5/2/2011 4:16:29 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Two men do the same thing with different results, and one is painted as a hero, while the other as an idiot. Biased much?


Obama had zero to do with the information and operation of this raid. He just said "do it" like he should do every time there is info like this out there. Don't pussyfoot around and give stupid ROEs. That's why vietnam was a disaster.


RE: The Genius and the Idiot.....
By cjohnson2136 on 5/2/2011 4:17:52 PM , Rating: 2
Having the man trapped by other men and calling in a bomb strike are two different things. If Obama was late on the kill order with the Seals invading the mansion last night then I would say they are equal and comparable.


By ajoyner777 on 5/3/2011 3:52:55 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Having the man trapped by other men and calling in a bomb strike are two different things. If Obama was late on the kill order with the Seals invading the mansion last night then I would say they are equal and comparable.


I seriously doubt special forces literally had him "trapped" somewhere. More than likely they knew where he was, had an opportunity to call in air support, but were denied for the same reasons Obama called off an air strike in Feb-March.

quote:
Obama had zero to do with the information and operation of this raid. He just said "do it" like he should do every time there is info like this out there. Don't pussyfoot around and give stupid ROEs. That's why vietnam was a disaster.


That's my point. Obama had an opportunity to take him out in Feb-March and didn't. Bin Laden could have slipped away this time too. That's why I think it's funny that Obama is painted as the Genius, while G.W. as an idiot.


Apple deny
By HaB1971 on 5/2/2011 2:03:28 PM , Rating: 5
.. that Bin Laden was located from his use of an iPhone 4




ummm
By kleinma on 5/2/2011 1:24:28 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
But fortunately (or unfortunately for bin Laden) nobody at the terrorist's compound seemed to spot the internet postings in time to evacuate


because bin laden used to monitor random twitter accounts to find out if he was in danger of a US raid???




via twitter?!
By Etern205 on 5/2/2011 2:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
So this article has 0% chance of getting on the front page of this site unless it's technology related especially via twitter?!
If this was the weather channel, this article will also have zero chance to be here unless weather played a vital role right?




RE: via twitter?!
By augiem on 5/3/2011 2:54:47 PM , Rating: 2
I hate twitter! God, they must have every single person in the media worldwide on their payroll! When's this gonna stop?


rest in turmoil
By Uncle on 5/2/2011 1:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
May osama bin laden rest in turmoil for the rest of eternity. No 40 virgins for this guy, hopefully 40 non virgin gays all named BaBa.




By StinkyWhizzleTeeth on 5/2/2011 2:06:47 PM , Rating: 2
Was reading on websense that the site is compromised with malicious code.




By InsaneGain on 5/2/2011 3:13:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
bin Laden was trained by the U.S. to fight invading Soviet forces in Afghanistan


This is a commonly believed myth. The U.S. never financed or trained Arab militants during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The U.S. only financed local Afghanistan fighters, of which there were about 250,000, so there was no need for additional religiously motivated foreign fighters. Arab fighters were well financed by Muslim sources in the Arab world, and they did not need any help from the U.S.




By vortmax2 on 5/2/2011 3:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
"During President George W. Bush's presidency, special forces reportedly had bin Laden trapped in Afghanistan, but did not receive a "kill" order from the President in time, allowing the famed terrorist kingpin to escape."

Mick unsurprisingly found a way to jab GW again...enough already.




Oh!
By BruceLeet on 5/3/2011 9:56:59 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sure Bin Laden regrets coming out of hiding to watch the Royal Wedding.




Farewell
By masamasa on 5/3/2011 10:57:06 AM , Rating: 2
Goodbye, good riddance, you won't be missed. Enjoy you 21 virgin sheep. They should have sold his execution as a pay-per-view event!




what next?
By rboodhun on 5/3/2011 1:55:29 PM , Rating: 2
Terrorism has already accomplished what it was meant to do, now enter extra-terrestrials threat to complete the secular WORLD ORDER and Globalization. Its getting to its climax!!!!!!! ooohhh that's gonna be fun.




Proud of my president
By MartyLK on 5/5/2011 1:12:49 PM , Rating: 2
I was taken aback a little by the proclamation that Laden had been killed. I was used to the constant rif-raf of Bush claiming he was killed so many times that I was jaded by any notion of Laden ever being caught or killed. But now that I've had time to acclimate to the idea that Obama may have succeeded in doing what the Bush admin could not do, I started to become more and more conscientious of the fact that Obama is a true and honest man. This allowed me to accept what Bush caused the whole nation to put out of mind: the actual capture and execution of that vile criminal.

President Obama did in less than 4 years what Bush could not do in 8 years. The situation room photo helped me realize and see that this president is real and true. That this administration is the best this nation ever had or ever will have. I am so proud of President Obama I just don't have the appropriate words to express.

The previous presidency has been so all-encompassingly devastating that I, probably like a great many others, just acclimated to the belief or notion of pure and utter corruption and worthlessness in American leadership. Thanks to president Obama, he is amazing repairing not only the nation but also our sense of honesty and decency in presidential leadership. Such an awesome and amazing man, Barrack Obama is.




99.9 percent certainty?
By icanhascpu on 5/5/2011 10:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
So their are seven million chances its not him? I sure as hell hope they just truncated the rest of those nines, being a DNA test and all.




:(
By FaceMaster on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: :(
By The Raven on 5/2/2011 5:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A) Sure, he did some terrible things, but I think it's still sad that a human has died.
B) I pray that he goes to Heaven and that he is forgiven for the things that he has done.

You're kidding, right?
Are you sure you are not getting Osama confused with Michael Vick?

Re: A - True, but I don't think it is that sad now that I have become accustomed to all the death that resulted from this man's actions and words.

Re: B - Why the H would you pray for that? Do you not believe in a merciful god? If this GD pig seeks repentance and for his sake finds it...good for him. I don't give a rat's A and neither should you. There are good, righteous, hard-working people living in poverty and pain that could use your misguided prayers and more importantly attention. Many people believe that god works throught the hands of those on Earth...so get off your knees and get to it.

Please stop wasting God/Allah/Kami/Zeus/L.Ron's time with your useless prayers.


RE: :(
By FaceMaster on 5/2/2011 8:56:52 PM , Rating: 1
B - that is for God to decide, not you.

A - No, I'm American, so I don't get brainwashed by American propoganda every day of my life.

btw wasn't the Royal Wedding awfully excellent?


RE: :(
By SPOOFE on 5/3/2011 1:52:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
B - that is for God to decide, not you.

God told me that it is up to him to decide. Don't argue with God. He's bigger than you are.


RE: :(
By The Raven on 5/3/2011 1:28:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
B - that is for God to decide, not you.

If that is the case, then why are you praying? It's a plea based on an opinion. I guess you could say that I'm praying to you as well. Which appears to also be useless. Maybe I should take my own advice.

I'm not telling God what to do you dolt. I'm telling you . You are the one trying to tell God what to do.


RE: :(
By The Raven on 5/4/2011 11:21:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Violent Death Of Human Being Terrific News For Once

http://www.theonion.com/articles/violent-death-of-...

:-P


RE: :(
By YashBudini on 5/2/2011 9:45:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I pray that he goes to Heaven

I pray his 72 virgins all look like Roseann Barr.


RE: :(
By Axbattler on 5/3/2011 9:07:20 AM , Rating: 2
RE: :(
By delphinus100 on 5/4/2011 7:41:36 PM , Rating: 1
If there really is divine judgement when we're all done, I'm hoping for something rather less pleasant than Heaven for him.

'Forgiveness' only has value for those who are truly repentant, even tormented by what they've done (and ideally should come not even from God, but from those it was done to).

I suspect that the only thing Osama is only sorry for, is that he never got his hands on nukes...


DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By Spuke on 5/2/2011 1:45:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
DNA does not confirm his death...unless there is something in the DNA that indicates death. There is not.
They didn't use DNA to determine his death, just to identify that it was him. Also, one of his wives confirmed it was him. Nothing fishy about the body disposal either. They wanted to conform with Islamic "law" that the body must be "buried" 24 hours after death. That was probably the quickest they could get it done.


By AnnihilatorX on 5/3/2011 10:47:01 AM , Rating: 2
When I read from other news source I was under impression that they say there is 99.9% match of the DNA.

I thought 99% DNA match is not a lot! Mice share 99% of human genome!

Then I read it here that it's 99.9% certainty, which is it?
With 99.9% certainty, they obviosuly did some confidence test through statistical methods. Still they need to be very careful here.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 1:54:57 PM , Rating: 4
What would be the motive for the lying? There's really only three possibilities, and only one of them makes sense.

1) They didn't find bin Laden at all, and are falsely claiming that he's dead. In which case bin Laden sends out a video next week and the US looks extremely foolish.

2) They found him and captured him and are now hiding him somewhere else. I suppose this is at least possible, they could be 'interrogating' him for information. You'd only have the 30 or so people involved in the operation to keep quiet about it. Of course, this would involve somehow subduing an armed, trained, homicidal man without killing him, which is never easy.

3) He's dead as a doornail.

There's good reasons to do the burial at sea. First and foremost, there will be no shrine for his allies to mourn over. It would have been difficult or impossible to find a country willing to take the remains that wouldn't build a shrine around them. Secondly, Islam states that a body should be buried within 24 hours, bin Laden's body was disposed of strictly according to Muslim traditions to deny any talking points for his allies. No one can say we mistreated his body.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
By MozeeToby on 5/2/2011 2:53:10 PM , Rating: 3
So in your mind they have him in custody, and they say 'well... I suppose you can go. But I never wanna see you around here again!". Why would they ever do that? There's no logic behind the assertion.

As to "the many lies about his death" there has never been a single instance where someone in the government has come out and said Osama bin Laden is dead, here is how we killed him, this is when it happened, this is what we did with the body. The closest that has ever happened is that some official in the intelligence business says "it may be possible that he is dead" and then the news media runs with it.

And giving everyone a chance to spit on (read as: desecrate) his body is because A) it would just stir up more and more hatred towards us and B) it's against the Geneva conventions. If we're ever going to end the war on terror its going to be by convincing the people on the other side that we aren't the barbaric, murderous, anti-Islam crusaders that their leadership claims we are.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By JediJeb on 5/2/2011 3:01:05 PM , Rating: 2
Problem there is if they did that then a vast majority of the Islamic world would have been ready to take up arms against us for the desecration of a Muslim. It would not matter if they liked him or hated him, it would have been a matter of religious honor. When we only feel vengeance towards our enemies, then we have become no better than those we fight against.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 3:28:31 PM , Rating: 5
The only crime would be making the US citizens pay millions of dollars to put him on trial and feed him in jail for the rest of his life. Putting those millions towards our deficit and paying $1 for bullet is a much better bargain.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By ekv on 5/2/2011 3:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I suppose we should never put anyone on trial...that would be barbarous!
Of course not. A quick and speedy trial is the epitome of justice. However, forcing New York City (for example) to waste hundreds of millions of dollars to secure such a trial IS barbarous. How many other lives would be negatively impacted? Rape victims denied counseling and justice because the budget just isn't there anymore. Homeless. Education. etc. The lawyers would be winners though....


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
By xkrakenx on 5/2/2011 3:34:28 PM , Rating: 2
just in case you arent trolling and are just an ignorant douchebag - I'll bite.

"you family gets raped" - you confuse personal revenge with the relationship between nations and cultures. You may definitely and understandably want personal revenge against those who wrong you, but to single out and offend or attack a nation or culture for it is another thing entirely. Professionalism always wins out over hotheadedness when you think about what happens afterwards. In the action movies - the hero says a one liner, the credits roll.. In real life you have to consider what comes next.

So we could parade his body through washington in an old time roman style tribute with Obamba and/or his generals receiving accolades for the death of an enemy. In this day and age, that kind of stuff is considered tacky.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/2011 3:29:36 PM , Rating: 2
And another thing...you want the Muslims to be at peace, stay the hell out of their business. You think Laden and the militant Muslims did what they did because we were leaving them alone and in peace? Bullshit! American politics have always been in other nation's business, stirring up a shitload of trouble. It they weren't, the Muslims never would have attacked to begin with.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By mdogs444 on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By Iaiken on 5/2/2011 5:05:32 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I think you're a terrorist sympathizer and should be charged with treason


So THAT's why the middle-ground in the US looked so empty...

Thanks for clearing that up...


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By mdogs444 on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
By snakeInTheGrass on 5/2/2011 10:16:47 PM , Rating: 1
Lol. I didn't take what he said as sympathizing, he was just pointing out that bin Laden had grievances. It was odd when Obama said something to the effect of 'al Qaeda started a war with us on our shores' type of thing. Well, look at US involvement in that area, propping up really crappy regimes that have been oppressing people... um, this didn't just start in a vacuum. I think the A.Q. belief systems they want to push of 'freedom' being a middle-ages oppressive religious doctrine as something worth opposing, but it's just possible there are reasons these wackos are getting support...

But before anyone goes all 'Limbaugh' or 'Beck', let's be clear, specifically targeting civilians is not an answer, and OBL got what he had coming to him. But the fact that he was a scumbag doesn't mean there aren't legitimate US policy problems in that region, it just means he was a scumbag who was happy to kill anyone and everyone, whether Western or the wrong sect of Islam, and who is now happily dead.

Read about the Great Game - fun British / Russian meddling in the region - and the area was just as full of two-faced tribal crap then as it is now. Look at the history of most of the countries in that region from the mid-19th century to now [Afghan, Pakistani, Iranian, Iraqi, Saudi, Libyan, ... you name the place, we've probably done something stupid there where we ourselves would have declared war had another nation done the same to us!]. There's a lot of really messed up stuff that our government (and the Brits / French / etc.) has done that doesn't exactly get delved into in sound bites.

Looking at policies to see why they may be inflaming radicals isn't the same as sympathizing. If supporting the House of Saud is the correct decision, then so be it, and if stationing troops in the Arabian peninsula is necessary, then so be it, and if supporting the Shah - oh, no, wait, that was actually deposing the prior Shah for declaring neutrality in WWII! ;) - was a good plan, then great, and if providing arms to Saddam was good until he had issues with the Kuwaiti dictator - er, King, - then so be that too, and if trading arms for hostages is good... etc., but let's at least take the time to look at what we're doing over there. And in the case of the Shah, he was at least secular and working on modernizing things, but then so was Saddam, certainly compared to the fine folks like Muqtada al Sadr who now have way more influence...

Anyway, no, we don't need middle ground on dealing with terrorists/extremists, but the 'why's of things are probably a bit more complex than 'they hate our freedom'.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By nick2000 on 5/2/2011 7:38:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you're a terrorist sympathizer and should be charged with treason.


Interesting. I have found in many years that the people most likely to accuse others of treason end up being traitors to the union themselves. (like hoisting a confederate flag)

Be careful with your accusations.


By Skywalker123 on 5/3/2011 1:29:25 AM , Rating: 4
nah, he's just a big talking blowhard idiot.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By xkrakenx on 5/2/2011 3:46:04 PM , Rating: 1
nations are always meddling in other nations affairs. You think the US invented the concept?

there probably wouldn't be much interest in their affairs except for the natural resources on their soil. why else meddle? I doubt the west is fvcking with the middle east just for fun / to piss them off.

blood and treasure buys more treasure and power. always has always will. get used to it.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 4:03:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Typical justification attitude. It's okay for our nation to commit crimes because...well...it's us doing it??

Oh wait, now its OUR nation? And just a few minutes ago you were posting that we should respect England as our god authorized rulers.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
By 91TTZ on 5/2/2011 5:12:27 PM , Rating: 1
He seems much more sensible than you.


By rcc on 5/2/2011 5:17:09 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
American politics have always been in other nation's business, stirring up a shitload of trouble


Yeah, but we learned from the best, English, French, Spanish, German, etc. etc. etc. Some day perhaps we'll be as good.

And yeah, none of that justifies anything, I just get tired of self righteous hypocrites.

On a personal level, I'm glad he's dead, and I think they handled it well. This whole thing was a careful balance between letting the free world know he's gone, and not enflaming the next generation of terrorists any more than necessary.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By 91TTZ on 5/2/2011 5:11:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, he's still alive and they made a deal with him to never show himself in public again.


LOL, that's completely idiotic.


By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 5:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
LOL - this guy acts like we put him in the witness protection program.


By delphinus100 on 5/4/2011 7:49:09 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, he's still alive and they made a deal with him to never show himself in public again.


And once free, he should live up to such a deal and not embarrass the US by appearing again, because...?

When you're responsible for destroying three airliners and several high-value buildings (and the people in them), will you stop at one little lie to the 'western crusader infidels?'

I'm thinking not...


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By JediJeb on 5/2/2011 2:42:10 PM , Rating: 3
A quick proper burial prevents inflaming the Islamic world because of desecration of the body, while burial at sea(as the articles mentions) prevents having a known burial site for his followers to rally around.

Showing respect for the dead, even one's enemy and especially one's enemy, speaks volumes for the moral standing of a nation. Putting his head on a pole and parading it around for the world to see would have made us no better than the extremist we are fighting. While there are many individuals within our nation who would like to see such a spectacle, as a whole we normally abhor such things.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 3:25:56 PM , Rating: 1
I can see you're praising your god...Obama. You sound like he's the Messiah in every one of your posts on here.

Now it's time to take your meds. Then Grandma will make you a sandwich before she sends you back to the padded room.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By JediJeb on 5/2/2011 3:29:00 PM , Rating: 1
I can forgive someone for the things they do to me, yes. I harbor no ill will for those who do wrong to me or those who attack me or insult me. I believe in the freedoms we have in this nation and you have every right to disagree with my point of view if you wish. I believe in forgiveness yet I also believe in justice. If I am caught speeding I will not fight a ticket because if I am guilty then I deserve the punishment it brings. There are consequences for actions that are unavoidable, that is how justice works. If on the other hand someone is punished unjustly for something they did not do then the wrong needs to be corrected.

No system is flawless, but we need to continually work to improve upon the flaws as we find them. I even agree that our government needs a lot of work as we have allowed the corruption to enter in over the years and done little to combat it. The people of this nation need to wake up and see what road we have allowed the few to lead us down and as a whole retake control and put us back on the right track. This nation was founded on some good core principals and the farther we have drifted from them the worse thing have gotten. Our forefathers left Europe for a reason, now the ones in power seem to want us to return to the European way of doing things. Big government, little people, that is the European way, while we were founded on little government, big people as our original philosophy and it should still be our way of doing things.

Hate me all you wish, I will still respect you and your rights to your opinion.


RE: DNA confirms only that they got some
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 3:47:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What does your church teach you about respecting and obeying the God-established authorities? Yet they conveniently find it perfectly acceptable for the founding fathers of this nation to not only disobey their authorities in England but also to go to war with them.

English government was not a god established authority you twit. In no way, shape, or form did God give the King the right to own peoples lives.

You are so far off the deep end, I don't even think you know what you're talking about. I'm not sure if you're a communist, nazi, or just went to school at UC Berkeley.


By Iaiken on 5/2/2011 5:22:06 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
What does your church teach you about respecting and obeying the God-established authorities?


Wait... what?

Even if you go back to King George III, he is stylized as fidei defensor("defender of the faith"), which means that he was the executive and protector of the church of England. Nowhere in his coronation did it say that he was appointed by god, but rather (paraphrased) that he accepted god and to lead the church, and that the church agreed to be lead.

Outside of that you are just making up spurious trip to support piss-poor arguments to attack people who have contended with much more clever fellows than you.


By rcc on 5/2/2011 5:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
You are one confused puppy. I really think you should travel the world and live in a few different places before you go all bug nuts on how horrible it is here.

There is a reason the founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state, and I think it's our responsibility, and in our best interest, to keep it separated. Frankly I don't really care what any church says or thinks about me or mine. But then again, I don't really care what they do in their halls as long as it doesn't directly impact me.

You know, on review, I have no idea what you are actually for or against, and I have my doubts whether you do. Hmmm, talk about a thread that has gone astray!


...
By rpsgc on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: ...
By cknobman on 5/2/2011 1:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
I dont see the comedy in it, please explain.


RE: ...
By BZDTemp on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: ...
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: ...
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 2:45:39 PM , Rating: 2
Should we also put Clinton on trial for the thousands of deaths since he didn't get Bin Laden either, especially when he had the chance? Bush wasn't in office yet for 9 months when this happened....but over 2 years later you allow Obama to use every excuse in the book to blame things on Bush.

When will you lefties grow a pair and accept some responsibility for your own actions - or lack there of.


RE: ...
By MartyLK on 5/2/11, Rating: -1
RE: ...
By mdogs444 on 5/2/2011 3:22:44 PM , Rating: 1
Ok Commie....

It's no wonder that 99% of the country wishes people like you could be relocated to a deserted island.


RE: ...
By mdogs444 on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: ...
By BZDTemp on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: ...
By beerhound on 5/2/2011 6:17:08 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly! Who's got time to train a bunch of noobs, I want someone who knows what they are doing.


RE: ...
By Wiggy Mcshades on 5/2/2011 8:40:37 PM , Rating: 2
is that how you justify jerkin it?


RE: ...
By RjBass on 5/2/2011 2:42:51 PM , Rating: 4
Interesting. So I guess all the videos OBL made claiming responsibility for 9/11 don't count then hunh?


RE: ...
By BZDTemp on 5/2/11, Rating: 0
RE: ...
By ekv on 5/2/2011 3:45:12 PM , Rating: 2
Mmmm, that McBacon burger was good. Who made it? Nobody? We shall have to convene a trial to find out the guilty party. Get New York City on the line....

Not.


RE: ...
By Wiggy Mcshades on 5/2/2011 8:53:47 PM , Rating: 1
US citizens rarely get a fair trial, you're in a fantasy land if you think he'd gotten a trial. You've got no idea how many people are forced into accepting a plea bargain even though they didn't actually commit a crime. If you really don't have a solid alibi and it can go either way when brought to a jury the DA usually offers you some significantly reduced jail time and most end up accepting. That way it looks like someone was caught for the crime, makes the police and judicial system look better. From a family of lawyers and I've heard the stories too many times of this kinda stuff.


RE: ...
By aharris02 on 5/2/2011 1:41:49 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see the comedy in it - Jason's comments seem pretty factually correct to me.


RE: ...
By diggernash on 5/2/2011 11:56:24 PM , Rating: 2
Could some one make a rational argument as to why we should not have used this event to incite radical Muslims? Is it not easier to cut a snakes head off after you make him rise up out of the grass? Is a hidden viper not much more frightening? This assumes you have the courage to kill him when he shows himself.


"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes

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