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Print E-mail del.icio.us 42 comment(s) - last by kkwst2.. on Oct 13 at 1:37 AM

DISH, cornered and out of options, finally agrees to pay TiVo for the use of its patents

DISH Network Corp conceded defeat and agreed to pay TiVo Inc $104 million Monday, wrapping up a heated, long-running patent battle over Dish’s DVR technologies.

TiVo originally won a set of patent claims against DISH in 2006, claiming that DISH illegally violated its patents when DISH was developing its own DVR systems. DISH opted to appeal defeat to the next highest court – leading to a string of disappointments that stopped only when the Supreme Court decided not to hear the case.

The original claims, filed in 2004, revolved around patents for a TiVo DVR’s ability to record one program and watch another, a technique that the company pioneered during the late 90s – in additional to a number of infringement claims regarding DISH’s DVR hardware. While lower courts eventually overturned TiVo’s hardware claims, the original software claim – and the resulting $74 million judgment – stuck.

DISH’s $104 million payment covers the original judgment plus interest for the time spent in appeals. It is unclear if TiVo will seek additional damages.

The case is far from over, however, as a number of claims regarding DISH’s development of a workaround – which it says do not infringe on TiVo’s patents – are still being worked out.

While DISH customers are still able to use their DVR boxes at this time, that ability may be in jeopardy in the near future: a lower court ordered DISH to shut down the 3 million DVR boxes its customers use, however that decision is on hold pending additional appeals.

DISH remains confident its workaround is sufficiently different from TiVo’s patents, adding that “TiVo’s pending motion for contempt should be denied.”

“We look forward to that ruling in the near future,” DISH said.

The Motley Fool notes that $104 million is a virtually insignificant sum to DISH, who last year had over $2.6 billion in operating cash flow – as opposed to TiVo’s $273 million in 2007 net sales and a “tradition of negative cash flows.” It also notes that shutting a court order forcing DISH to unplug its DVR boxes would give the satellite company’s competitors – namely, Comcast, Verizon, DirecTV, and others – an unfair competitive advantage, since they would be unaffected.

DISH Network Corp changed its name from EchoStar Communications in late 2007. The company recently accused DirecTV owner News Corp of hiring the world’s “second best hacker” in order to develop counterfeit DISH access cards.



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TIVO who???
By theapparition on 10/8/2008 9:16:56 AM , Rating: 3
Are they really still around. Thought TIVO went the way of the 8 track.

I'm not knocking them, they actually had a Superior implementation, but there is no way they can keep up with the cable/satellite providers with their own hardware.

I thought they had a small chance of just selling the TIVO service to providers, but realized that hope was dead when I saw that comcast will be charging extra for the privilege of TIVO software. Who's going to pay for that. If history is any indication, the average consumer is quite happy with mediocre.




RE: TIVO who???
By austinag on 10/8/2008 10:24:15 AM , Rating: 2
Do you work for Comcast or Dish?


RE: TIVO who???
By theapparition on 10/8/2008 10:35:52 AM , Rating: 2
I work for neither.

And I have a TIVO with lifetime subscription. Don't use it anymore since the highly integrated FIOS boxes do a similar job, and includes high def.

The TIVO unit is unplugged and hasn't been used for a year, and I don't miss it. TIVO has been operating at a loss for years, and I don't see them changing that trend.


RE: TIVO who???
By FITCamaro on 10/8/2008 10:37:24 AM , Rating: 2
*drool*

FiOS. Me want.


RE: TIVO who???
By Brazos on 10/8/2008 11:03:27 AM , Rating: 2
I love my Tivo Series 3 with 2 HD Cablecard tuners. Hooked up a 1T external drive. Best software of any DVR.


RE: TIVO who???
By qdemn7 on 10/8/2008 11:06:07 AM , Rating: 2
Except for the fact you can have up to TWO terabytes on an HD Series 32 Tivo. That is a great deal of recording time in either SD or HD. Can your FIOS box do that? Can your FIOS keep recordings for a year or more?

In short Tivo still has a great deal to recommend that nothing from any of the providers can match.

You don't want you Tivo, I'll take it off your hands for the cost of shipping.


RE: TIVO who???
By omnicronx on 10/8/2008 11:27:56 AM , Rating: 3
Bell Canada now sells PVR's that have two expansion slots for your own hard drives, so yes other companies are already doing what TIVO is, and for a fraction of the price. Not to mention that you can keep upgrading the size of your hard drive as you please, without having to upgrade your hardware.

There are just too many options out there, let alone it just makes more sense for most people to rent a PVR from their cable/sat provider that doubles as the receiver box.


RE: TIVO who???
By FITCamaro on 10/8/2008 4:15:55 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Can your FIOS keep recordings for a year or more?


Haven't seen a DVR box yet that will delete your video if you don't tell it to. If you set the DVR to never delete things, they stay until you delete them. Now you might fill your DVR up and be forced to delete things, but it won't do it on its own.

And actually for some Scientific Atlantica DVRs, there is a portable hard drive you can plug into it to increase its storage capacity.

I'll admit the Tivo software sounds nice. Especially their new thing that will let you record shows off your DVR onto your computer.


RE: TIVO who???
By theos0 on 10/8/2008 10:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, you can have the same space on a Dish dvr. Not too mention the DVR with dish is free.


RE: TIVO who???
By theapparition on 10/9/2008 7:55:25 AM , Rating: 2
Err,
My boxes have 2 SATA ports, and I have an additional TB installed already. If I wanted more.......just buy another one and plug in, bingo.....2 TB. Never came anywhere near exceeding 1TB though, so it's a moot point for me.

Can it keep recordings for a year or more? Considering I still have season 3(?) of Lost still on there, I think the answer is yes.

I'll not deny that the TIVO software is better, but not by leaps and bounds, it's only minimal difference. Problem is, the average consumer don't care about minimal differences. They care about low payments, integration, and free replacement for failure. Can your TIVO do that?

And the Series 3 can't keep up with OnDemand and other features offered by the cable co's box.

It's a shame, as I'd like to see TIVO succede. But I think thier business model is screwed, and they will not be able to survive.


RE: TIVO who???
By kkwst2 on 10/13/2008 1:37:03 AM , Rating: 2
You can get a regular box to handle OnDemand, a Tivo subscription, and the cablecard for the same price (actually slightly cheaper if you prepay a year or more for Tivo) as the Comcast DVR price. That means the only extra price is the price of the TivoHD, which you can get for less than $200 refurbished.

Comcast DVR's don't have the SATA or firewire ports enabled, so there is no way to upgrade, and no working hack that I know of.

The software difference is not minimal in my book, but I agree that most consumers won't understand.


RE: TIVO who???
By RU482 on 10/8/2008 12:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
how much do you want for that unplugged Tivo?


RE: TIVO who???
By theapparition on 10/9/2008 7:58:23 AM , Rating: 2
You can bid for it on Ebay like everyone else..... :P


RE: TIVO who???
By Scrith on 10/8/2008 3:49:17 PM , Rating: 2
Ignorance is bliss.


RE: TIVO who???
By Reclaimer77 on 10/9/2008 12:20:48 AM , Rating: 2
Ummmm do you realize how very few people are privelidged to have FIOS ??

I think your losing perspective. Tivo is a damn good product.


RE: TIVO who???
By theapparition on 10/9/2008 7:57:41 AM , Rating: 2
No loss of perspective. Before FIOS......I had Comcast. Even then, I thought the Comcast offering was virtally as good as the TIVO one.


RE: TIVO who???
By kkwst2 on 10/13/2008 1:32:03 AM , Rating: 2
You're not stressing it then. There are many well-documented problems with Comcast DVR software, including it not recording a series when they overlap but don't start at the same time. So you have to record each show manually.

You can get a Tivo HD refurb for less than $200, and the monthly fee is chaper than the comcast DVR fee in my area.

I've had two comcast DVR's fail in 2 years, causing me to lose all my shows. In addition, there is no way to add storage to a Comcast DVR.

With Tivo's, you have two options, upgrade the internal hard drive (unsupported) or add an external drive (supported).

Not to mention that I can back up my shows to PC with Tivo, and watch them on the road with my laptop. Try that with your Comcast DVR.

I certainly agree that most will not go for the Tivo, but I disagree that the Comcast DVR software is close to the Tivo software. It's not in the same league. Most users are not sophisticated enough to know the difference, which to some degree relegates Tivo to a niche market. However, I'm certainly hoping they can survive.


RE: TIVO who???
By Smilin on 10/8/2008 10:54:39 AM , Rating: 1
Oh yeah, they are still around.

"I'm not knocking them, they actually had a Superior implementation, but there is no way they can keep up with the cable/satellite providers with their own hardware."

Keep up? WTH are you talking about? TiVo is leaving them in the dust. They have the best DVR out there by a *wide* margin.

-Dual HD tuners (long before anyone else had) with cable cards
-Large storage that can be expanded with a common external drive
-Programming via phone or ethernet (or plug in wireless usb ethernet)
-Ability to move shows between DVRs
-Ability to move shows to your PC and even burn them.
**Ability to run all your music and photos from your PC to your home entertainment system
-Rent/Purchase movies from amazon.com
-live365 streaming music
-youtube integration
-Wishlist and swivel search (aka show me all Hi-Def sci-fi movies playing anywhere over the next two weeks)
-actually more online services integration (yahoo etc) than I can name.
-Real live customer support...try that with your cable company.

Oh yeah, and in addition to the 1080i HD recording it also has THX certified surround via HDMI or Optical.

Yeah people that rent a DVR from their cable company *think* they have a TiVo but they don't.


RE: TIVO who???
By Smilin on 10/8/2008 10:58:48 AM , Rating: 2
I just realized. You guys are talking about some 1995 series 1 or 2 Tivo. They were again ahead of their time but that was ages ago. The Cable Satellite DVRs have nothing on the current generation of TiVos.


RE: TIVO who???
By omnicronx on 10/8/2008 11:43:52 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
-Dual HD tuners (long before anyone else had) with cable cards
Most Cable sat providers have the same thing, who cares if Tivo had it first.
quote:
-Large storage that can be expanded with a common external drive
As I already noted Bell Canada is already doing this, expect other companies to follow suit.
quote:
-Programming via phone or ethernet (or plug in wireless usb ethernet)
Which is unneeded for sat/cable providers, if they want to send updates, they have a hardline connection (which is pretty obvious).
quote:
-Ability to move shows between DVRs
I could really care less, how many TV's do you need in a household with PVR capabilities? This is just a bonus for the few people that actually use it
quote:
**Ability to run all your music and photos from your PC to your home entertainment system
Many Many better ways to do this, and lets face it, how many people have an internet connection in their living room.
quote: