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On Wednesday Republicans and Democrats in Congress rebuked Microsoft for participating in Chinese censorship. Bill Gates, company founder defends the decision, stating, "You've got to decide. Do you want to obey the laws of the countries you're in, or not?"

Chinese people show their appreciation for Google's decision to stand up to their government's censorship.  (Source: Guardian UK)
Rep. Smith, R-N.J.:"They [Microsoft] need to get on the right side of human rights rather than enabling tyranny, which they're doing right now."

There has been much talk about Google's decision to pull out of China while Microsoft has remained directly complicit in Chinese internet censorship.  Today a bipartisan U.S. Congressional panel praised Google's actions, while admonishing Microsoft.

Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D warned, "China wants to participate in the marketplace of goods but keep the marketplace of ideas outside their country.  Only when China respects human rights and allows the free flow of ideas ... only then will they be treated as a full member of the international community."

Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J. praised Google, commenting that the company's decision to uncensor its Chinese search was "a remarkable, historic and welcomed action."

GoDaddy, the popular domain registration service, also was praised by Rep. Smith for pulling out of China due to privacy violations.  Microsoft, however, received a rebuke from the Representative.  He stated, "They [Microsoft] need to get on the right side of human rights rather than enabling tyranny, which they're doing right now."

Microsoft insists it is merely following the local law.  A company statement read, "We appreciate that different companies may make different decisions based on their own experiences and views.  At Microsoft we remain committed to advancing free expression through active engagement in over 100 countries, even as we comply with the laws in every country in which we operate."

The statement echoes the words of Microsoft former CEO, co-founder, and renowned philanthropist Bill Gates, who in January remarked, "You've got to decide.  Do you want to obey the laws of the countries you're in, or not?"

China agrees.  Its China's State Council Information Office comments, "Foreign companies need to abide by China's laws when they operate in China.  Google violated it's promise."

The issue is made more complex by the fact that Google has in the past censored search results in other countries, such as Thailand, Turkey, France [see the Wikipedia page on Google's past censorship for more info].  Google has made no suggestion that it will reject censorship in the future.  Nonetheless, its uncensoring of its Chinese search is perhaps the highest profile example of defiance against online censorship in terms of number of people affected.

Microsoft, on the other hand, says it is opposed to Chinese censorship, but continues to participate in it.  It enjoys a wonderful opportunity to capture more of China's close to 400 million internet users with Google out of the picture

A new law may make it more embarrassing for Microsoft to stay this course.  The Global Online Freedom Act, a bipartisan initiative pending in Congress, would force U.S. firms to disclose what materials they are censoring in foreign nations -- including China -- in effect airing search firms' dirty laundry to the public.

Back in China, the government imposed backlash against Google picked up in earnest with China Unicom and other business officially giving the Google search engine the boot.  China Unicom, the nation's second largest carrier, did not announce and immediate replacement.  It has been speculated that it may stop selling Android handsets or at least stop releasing new models, however, those claims have yet to be validated.  It seems clear, however, that the Chinese government is infuriated and Google will likely face more repercussions in coming weeks.



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Why pile on Microsoft?
By iluvdeal on 3/25/2010 2:56:21 PM , Rating: 3
What % of the search engine market does Microsoft have in China? Less than 1% before Google left?

If I was Congress, I would be more concerned with China's retaliatory actions against US businesses in China. Google has a right to end their search business in China if they don't want to abide by Chinese laws. However, if China is retaliating against Google's other business interests in China, like blocking Android phones from being released because of their spat, Congress should be deeply concerned.

While Microsoft does not have a lot to lose by pulling out of the search engine market in China at the moment, China retaliating against them by banning the Windows operating system could be a very real consequence of their action. In that case, they have a lot to lose. Doing business in China is a very tricky road to navigate.




RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Reclaimer77 on 3/25/10, Rating: 0
RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By MadMan007 on 3/25/2010 3:08:26 PM , Rating: 4
Joseph McCarthy called, he wants his witch hunt back.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By sebmel on 3/26/2010 2:49:07 PM , Rating: 2
Why is this a witch hunt?

"Bill Gates, company founder defends the decision, stating, "You've got to decide. Do you want to obey the laws of the countries you're in, or not?""

The statement clearly begs the question: Any country?

What if you're in Zimbabwe, or Sudan?
What if it's 1936 and you find that the National Socialists have just hijacked parliament?

Theres a real issue here. When does one say: No, I'm not going to cooperate with that.

I remember another person who shared Bill Gate's view: Margaret Thatcher. She refused to issue sanctions against South Africa when it was a white supremacist ruled country. She argued for 'constructive engagement'.

In my personal view that didn't reflect very well on her character and wasn't worthy of the the land of Lord Winston Churchill and William Wilberforce.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By MadMan007 on 3/27/2010 1:14:10 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Everything the Communists in Obama's congress despise.


He could have made his cynical point without that rediculously hyperbolic sentence.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By epobirs on 3/27/2010 3:28:10 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah, because Churchill was really down on South Africa.

There is much to be said for engagement. It played a vital role in the collapse of the Soviet Union, as its people became increasingly aware how much their lives sucked compared to so much else of the world.

And speaking of the USSR, its existence was another reason for engaging nations whose leadership was frequently loathsome. Both sides were vying for alliances, especially with regions like South Africa where some very important resources could be obtained that were very scarce elsewhere.

This interplay played a major role in the birth of our current President. He was in the US because he was being groomed as a less left-wing future leader compared to some of his fellow countrymen whom were being mentored by the Soviets.

The big bad world isn't like the grade school playground. You cannot limit the players to just those kids you like and expect to like the results.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By lightfoot on 3/25/2010 3:13:34 PM , Rating: 1
Ironic that in order to be large, profitable and successful more and more companies are forced to do business in China.

What we really need to do is to increase regulation and taxes on these companies until they decide to come back.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By amanojaku on 3/25/2010 3:16:46 PM , Rating: 5
I think you mean we should increase taxes on companies going overseas and decrease taxes on companies willing to stay in the US.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By lightfoot on 3/25/2010 3:50:43 PM , Rating: 5
Yeah right! Never gonna happen under this administration.

These are companies! They actually try to make profit! They exploit their employees for the benefit of their share holders. We must protect the American worker, and not allow them to be exploited. These companies are clearly evil and must be taxed more heavily for their immoral business practices.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By mikefarinha on 3/26/2010 1:49:28 PM , Rating: 1
So any for-profit companies doesn't higher employees it exploits them? Is this the new Obama approved terminology we're supposed to use?

I guess we're all victims eh?


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Lerianis on 3/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By EricMartello on 3/30/2010 2:00:27 AM , Rating: 2
Nobody made you a "wage slave", it's the unambitious populous that is too stupid or simply unwilling to do more for themselves. The old go to school and get a job road is very well traveled. You're competing with a lot of other people who are looking to coast by in life...so why should you be paid more for something when there are 10 other people ready to take your spot...not as a wage slave but more like a "paycheck collector"...which is what a lot of the american workforce is. You know, the people who just want to show up, do their 8 hours and collect a check.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By nafhan on 3/25/2010 3:54:09 PM , Rating: 5
The funny thing about this is that our immigration laws are in some cases forcing companies to send business overseas. There are intelligent people who would love nothing more than to live and work in the US, but due to green card shenanigens these people are working outside the country. They would be contributing to the economy, but instead we're sending the money to wherever they are working in order to "preserve" American jobs.
It seems like illegal immigrants sometimes get a better deal then the people who try to do it the right way.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Jalek on 3/25/2010 4:11:08 PM , Rating: 5
H1B visa levels have doubled every time Gates has asked, and he's asked often. His foundation spends millions on colleges in India while he cites a lack of education here as the reason for the needed visas.

They were coming by the planeload, learning the business environment and methods, then going back to Bangalore to set up an outsourcing office that fit into the company.

They're not being barred from entry. They stopped applying when the job openings dried up.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Hieyeck on 3/26/2010 3:16:29 PM , Rating: 5
The lack of education started in grade school. The US has turned into such a nanny state that the kids are growing up less educated and more spoiled. Walk into a high school these days and you can see it right away. The way kids talk to their parents is unbelieveable, like they own the world. If I talked back to my parents like they do now, I'd get a good slap across the face. To them, life is one big party. When I went to college, I went to study. All you hear about these days are how students are so stressed because they can't fit in a party a night and how there's no time in the morning to get over their hangovers.

THAT's why people would rather hire an immigrant.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Lerianis on 3/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Hieyeck on 3/29/2010 3:39:52 PM , Rating: 3
Thanks for proving my point: there are only 23.98 (practically rounded off to 24) hours in a day, not 25. You are exactly the problem. The product of parents from a nanny-state, raised by a generation too high to raise their own kids.

My immigrant parents instilled in me those values from "OTHER" countries. The one impressed upon me most was focus. Work is work, so get the f*** to work. When work's over, work's over - enjoy your family and friends and tell work to screw off (unless they come to me with delicious overtime, but even then there's a limit). Multi-tasking has been proven ineffective, so why the hell are you trying to make work fun and make fun work? Focus your life. Of course, that's just me. But it also got me a job ahead of the curve, because when my boss hired me to do 8 hours a day, she knew she was getting a more effective 8 hours than the next guy over busy sipping his latte and chatting up the hot assistant in marketing.

Frankly, I prefer nanny-parents over nanny-state. I prefer them being able to customise the parenting to suit my needs. I prefer that when I could've royally pissed of some stranger if I weren't some snot-nosed kid, that they took me aside and made sure I knew it, so I didn't find out the hard way later in life and get stabbed or shot. Just sayin' I prefer being slightly bruised over seriuosly maimed or dead. I prefer them doing their jobs and the state staying out of it.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By joshuasims1981 on 3/26/2010 12:30:49 AM , Rating: 1
This really isn't true, you know. Most professionals who come in to the US for these kinds of jobs do 2 things.

1.) Lower the average salary for the job type

This is because they will take a lower wage than a domestic worker. As such, the wages of corresponding positions are depressed.

2.) Send earnings overseas, in effect, though at a smaller scale, causing the same problem as moving the business overseas.

Most immigrant workers, particularly those for skilled positions, come to this country alone and send the majority of their wages back to their families in their home countries.

A third point, that has little to do with the immigrant workers themselves, is that there are qualified people in the US, but they ask for a higher wage, more benefits, etc, so for a lot of companies it is more cost effective to higher the foreign workers.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By jconan on 3/26/2010 2:04:27 AM , Rating: 2
for blue collar jobs, most immigrant employees do that.

However for white collar jobs, that is far from it and will probably fit description number 1. These employees are indentured to the H1B visa criteria and it's sponsor and will most likely have to work for a lower wage otherwise the company will not hire them. The H1B visa is an added cost to the company sponsoring the employee so the company must recoup the cost with cheaper employee salaries.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By nafhan on 3/26/2010 10:44:50 AM , Rating: 4
Lowering the wages of a small group of people in this country is a silly argument in a global market place. It's just as likely that the guy coming here to take the job is keeping that job (and the money from it) in the US. Also, once these people are over here, they get paid based on what they do, not where they came from.
Out of a group of 16 people I work with, half are from Asia. Several are US citizens, and all would stay here if they could.
Your arguments seem more geared towards the type of people who pick fruit, clean houses, etc. Adding highly skilled and educated people to our society makes the US more competitive on a global scale. It doesn't matter if they are homegrown through our excellent educational system or if they immigrated here as adults.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Suntan on 3/26/2010 12:31:10 PM , Rating: 3
You (and your Asian friends) seem to be the exception. In multiple companies that I have worked at, Indian workers (engineers) were brought over to work (read: learn) how the companies did product development, then take that information back with them to set up development centers in their respective areas of India. At the last company, they were housed in apartments, two employees per apartment and they were given one company car to be shared amongst 4 employees. They stayed for an average of 9 to 14 months and then returned home. Although I never asked specifically what their pay package looked like, in general conversation (asking if people wanted to go out for lunch, go do this or that after work) it was always abundantly clear that there level of monetary compensation was woefully less than an American citizen doing a similar job.

In one instance, three Indian “designers” were sent over to live for a period of 6 months while they became proficient with the way the company modeled purchased parts from other companies (buy a spark plug from a vender then it needs to be modeled so that the company has an appropriate model of the spark plug in the CAD system.) After their 6 month stint, they returned to India and from that point on, all new purchased part samples would be overnight shipped to India for them to model it and then have the sample overnight shipped back to the states. It was cheaper to overnight ship parts there and back to have them modeled than it was to pay an American drafter to model them.

I have no problem with skilled foreigners being allowed in on H1B visas and then having the company support them in gaining green cards to become a long term member of society (my best bud is here on an H1B from Ireland, working on a green card.) however, hauling “skilled” Indians over, packing them into temporary housing, then sending them back home with American jobs is not good for the American workers in those industries.

Lest you suggest that it is completely acceptable for the company to expect them to live with a roommate and share one company car with three other coworkers, no American (or European) that I have worked with, would ever be expected to live with a roommate or share a company car while working away from home for an extended period of time.

-Suntan


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By nafhan on 3/26/2010 5:18:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, your experience does sound different than mine. I was trying to get across that not all foreign workers fit into the stereotype, but, as you've pointed out, though. That stereotype exists for a reason.
However, in a situation like the one you described "stealing" American jobs likely isn't what's happening. Those jobs were gone anyway (or never there to begin with). A more reasonable explination would probably be an American company is staying in business by outsourcing certain aspects of itself.
Labor (white and blue colar) is cheaper in some parts of the world, and someone running a competitive global business has to take that into account.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Lerianis on 3/28/2010 10:11:15 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, and that is what PUNITIVE TARIFFS are for.... to put all countries on a level playing field.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Kenenniah on 3/25/2010 4:00:11 PM , Rating: 4
You do have to consider how increasing regulations and taxes for companies that do business overseas would affect our competetiveness in the global market. If we want to remain any kind of economic leader, we have to also be careful not to hobble our companies abilities to compete with those from other countries without the same restrictions and taxes. I'm not saying no restrictions or taxes per say, just that global competetiveness would need to be a consideration before anything is instituted.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By mcnabney on 3/25/2010 5:08:12 PM , Rating: 2
That is a load of crap and you know it.

Current tax law is now written to encourage development outside of the United States.

For example - a business can get a tax break for building a factory in either Ohio or in China. They get the same tax break either way. However, the profits made in the Ohio factory will be taxed as a corporate profit while profits made in the Chinese factory will never be taxed. So investment abroad is actually incentivized by our own government even though we will never benefit from it by way of jobs or taxes on earnings.

Why would you ever open a factory in the US to compete on the market in which others take advantage of tax-free overseas production?


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By PrezWeezy on 3/25/2010 6:09:14 PM , Rating: 2
Current allegations notwithstanding, ask Toyota.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Kenenniah on 3/25/2010 6:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
Try actually reading what I wrote. I said competetiveness needs to be considered before making new regulations etc., not that regulations shouldn't be made. While there are things that need to be addressed, it can't be a knee jerk reaction that goes too far. I don't believe it's a load of crap for lawmakers to be careful with any new legislation.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By sbtech on 3/26/2010 9:48:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
more and more companies are forced to do business in China.

No they are not. What you see is simple economics.

You on the other hand can go ahead and say no to "made in china" products. Guess what, you would see that isn't happening either. When given a choice, a customer will choose the product "they" think is providing them best value for money.

When we talk about value, the products standard functions probably comes to one's mind. What a person generally fails to consider as "need" are:
- demographic behavior
- Psychological (attitude, lifestyle, personality)
- Social (influence from friends, role models, esteem need, etc.)

Now for example, you may be able to see why someone is willing to buy an Apple Macintosh - something that you may think as "Overpriced" ;)


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Suntan on 3/26/2010 12:37:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You on the other hand can go ahead and say no to "made in china" products.


Too True.

It seems that every time I visit the manufacturing plant that builds the models I work on (located in Minnesota) I hear at least one or two of the American union workers complaining abou this or that cheap chinese piece of crap that they bought at the store and it recently broke on them.

They love to complain about the "made in China" stuff, but they keep buying it.

-Suntan


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By Ard on 3/26/2010 9:46:29 AM , Rating: 1
Do ppl like you every STFU? It's disgusting what the so-called "conservative" party has become. Nothing more than a bunch of bigots, zealots, and fringe lunatics.


RE: Why pile on Microsoft?
By tastyratz on 3/25/2010 4:40:42 PM , Rating: 2
oh isn't that cute... you think the people of china actually PAY for their copy of windows.

I'm sure there's a handful of people who do, but there isn't much more than that.

If anything a total ban on Microsoft products in china and tough enforcement might actually HELP Microsoft since they probably pump out more illegitimate copies than actual paid for licenses


Ignoring Local Laws
By lightfoot on 3/25/2010 2:47:26 PM , Rating: 5
While we are encouraging companies to ignore the local laws in countries that they operate, I recommend that we start right here at home. There are several laws here that I think people and companies should start ignoring, both from an ethical and a business perspective.




RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By whiskerwill on 3/25/2010 2:49:29 PM , Rating: 3
Also I intend to go to Germany and start posting Nazi material on the Internet, then cry about censorships and suppression of my rights when I get arrested.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By Lerianis on 3/28/2010 9:55:03 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, Germany should be stomped on for those laws by the rest of the world. From my point of view, they are just trying to DENY their history, and the fact is also that another Nazi-like movement could appear in Germany today, preaching the same ideals, just under another name!


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By amanojaku on 3/25/2010 2:52:57 PM , Rating: 3
Here, smoke this while I take my turn with the hooker. ;-)

I agree that companies should obey local laws, but if doing so is unethical or illegal there should not be a presence in that country at all. MS should follow Google and *gasp* GoDaddy's ethical lead and get the hell outta dodge.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By Smartless on 3/25/2010 3:19:21 PM , Rating: 1
You know the irony of it all is Google is a company that has tried to keep things on the internet free while sometimes violating a few privacy laws or copyrights. On a certain level, China loves doing that too.

As for our presence in that country.... China alone may overtake the world in internet users. They manufacture almost all our technology, play the most games (make and steal WoW gold lol), and are catching up in online business. America won't be a power-player soon. Getting out of China is like telling tuna fisherman to get out of Japan.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By PrezWeezy on 3/25/2010 6:02:36 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be fooled. While the end result may be positive, the reason they pulled out was not Ethics. It was business.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By amanojaku on 3/26/2010 10:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
Funny, that's the same thing I said to the hooker. "Honey, a kid costs money that I just don't have, and I know you're broke. How about down the hatch?"

I am going to Hell...


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By daInvincibleGama on 3/27/2010 12:29:55 AM , Rating: 2
lol wow. Everything's a hooker analogy.

I don't really mind that ;p


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By Ard on 3/26/2010 9:52:50 AM , Rating: 1
Unethical or illegal to who? If you say to us or the "western world", I have a real issue with that. The problem the US has is they believe that their way is the only way to do things. If you don't support democracy, you're nothing more than an idiotic fascist dictator. This country is stuck in its "we've gotta police the world" state. Do I agree with censorship? No. But I'm not going to tell another country that they can't enforce that policy in their own society under the guise of human rights. When the Chinese get tired of censorship, it'll change, just like our country did when it was tired of the lack of civil/voting rights for women and blacks. It is not our place to tell the Chinese when they should change or how they should do it.

Gates is absolutely right: the law is the law. If we can just ignore another country's laws, why don't I just ignore the US' precious IP/DMCA laws?


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By daInvincibleGama on 3/27/2010 12:41:18 AM , Rating: 2
"Unethical or illegal to who?"

Unethical to everybody, including American consumers of Google products and services.

"If you say to us or the "western world", I have a real issue with that. The problem the US has is they believe that their way is the only way to do things."

If by "their way" you mean no forcible disappearances and persecution of people that disagree, then yeah, it should be the only way to do things. People have the right to live their lives, even if the govt. disagrees with what they believe.

"If you don't support democracy, you're nothing more than an idiotic fascist dictator."

Yeah. Pretty much the definition.

"This country is stuck in its "we've gotta police the world" state."

We have a right to condemn what we see as wrong.

"Do I agree with censorship? No."

Great.

"But I'm not going to tell another country that they can't enforce that policy in their own society under the guise of human rights."

Right. Human rights is a guise. The Chinese government can, with no justification, create a 'policy' of punishing people for expressing opinions they disagree with or bring violence upon people that demand a voice and basic political rights.

"When the Chinese get tired of censorship, it'll change, just like our country did when it was tired of the lack of civil/voting rights for women and blacks."

Excuse me, but when might the Chinese government get tired of censorship? And also, when were the Chinese people NOT tired of censorship?

"It is not our place to tell the Chinese when they should change or how they should do it."

We are as free to express our opinions and criticisms of their policies as they are to do the converse.

"Gates is absolutely right: the law is the law."

Would you say the same about such laws as the Fugitive Slave Acts and Jim Crow laws? Do you really assume that law, especially when created by authoritarian regimes, is always reasonable and legitimate?

"If we can just ignore another country's laws, why don't I just ignore the US' precious IP/DMCA laws?"

We can, and will, ignore another country's laws as much as we want as long as we are on our own free soil.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By thrust2night on 3/28/2010 3:00:01 PM , Rating: 1
You jackass. You are unnecessarily twisting his words. If the American government really likes what Google did then why the fuck are we so in debt to China? Why doesn't the government stop all trade with China and make it illegal for American companies to do business there?

Sure we have the right to condemn what we see as wrong, but its also hypocritical that our government continues to do business with China while our companies have to live up to a good role model.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By Lerianis on 3/28/2010 10:14:32 PM , Rating: 2
You hit the nail right on the head when you brought up the Jim Crow laws and the Fugitive Slave Acts.

If we are going to say that someone has to obey 'all the laws'... we had better freaking well make sure that all our laws are not discriminatory against a group of people and are not trying to force the 'morality' of anyone on people who don't want to adhere to it, unless they are physically harming someone else without their permission.


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By jconan on 3/28/2010 11:25:37 PM , Rating: 2
Gates is right!!!

WHEN IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO...


RE: Ignoring Local Laws
By dragonbif on 3/25/2010 5:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
The US just gave Microsoft the OK to ignor the laws here!

Not really but you could look at it that way ;)


tyranny
By kfonda on 3/25/2010 3:37:49 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Rep. Smith, R-N.J.:"They [Microsoft] need to get on the right side of human rights rather than enabling tyranny, which they're doing right now."


So is it safe to assume that congress will not be borrowing any more money from this tyrannical country and GM won't be selling any more cars there. Maybe we should stop allowing anything made in china from being imported into the US since we are just contributing to the oppression of the poor Chinese people.

Microsoft does not appear to be breaking any laws. So maybe congress should leave it up to the shareholders how they want to run their company.




RE: tyranny
By mcnabney on 3/25/2010 5:16:22 PM , Rating: 2
I think the perspective here is that being directly complicit with the massive censorship is actually being part of the problem. By playing ball with the Chinese government it makes it much easier for them to surpress their people since the West is even using their technological innovations to keep the civilians down. Selling Buicks doesn't deprive the Chinese of their freedom, but pre-sanitizing the Web for the government most certainly does.


RE: tyranny
By kfonda on 3/25/2010 5:47:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Selling Buicks doesn't deprive the Chinese of their freedom, but pre-sanitizing the Web for the government most certainly does.


I believe, under their current system of government, the Chinese people do not have freedom. If they would like that to change, they should do something about it. Maybe they are just fine with the way their government works.


RE: tyranny
By Lerianis on 3/28/2010 9:50:21 PM , Rating: 2
Or, just like a child who has been raised in a home where her father beats and forcible rapes her on a daily basis, they simply don't know that is wrong and don't know any better.

That said, I am PRO-pedosexual, but ANTI-rapist.


More government...yay...
By Spivonious on 3/25/2010 2:51:04 PM , Rating: 2
Why does the US government care what a private company is doing in a foreign country?




RE: More government...yay...
By Murst on 3/25/2010 3:20:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Why does the US government care what a private company is doing in a foreign country

Are you serious? For example, do you really believe that it would be ok for GE or some other US company to sell refined plutonium (or whatever nuclear fuel is necessary) to North Korea, Iran, etc?


RE: More government...yay...
By Luticus on 3/26/2010 8:12:55 AM , Rating: 2
I think there's a big difference between a waring nation like North Korea and a nation who is simply suppressing freedom of speech. While I agree that the constitution should apply to every human being, not just Americans, we have to respect foreign government's views on what's best for its own citizens. We can't go around policing the world, that's what always gets us into trouble in the first place.


RE: More government...yay...
By bug77 on 3/25/2010 6:43:11 PM , Rating: 2
Wait till China decides Microsoft has to kill anyone asking about Tienanmen Square on Bing. You, just because the law says so.


RE: More government...yay...
By Beno on 3/25/2010 6:53:25 PM , Rating: 1
my thoughts!
we are moving towards a world where companies are engaging in politics.


RE: More government...yay...
By thurston on 3/25/2010 9:08:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
we are moving towards a world where companies are engaging in politics


I think we've been there for a while.


Both lying to themselves
By carniver on 3/25/2010 2:36:59 PM , Rating: 4
China is foolish to think their citizens don't know how to bypass the great firewall of China through encryption and using proxy

Microsoft is foolish to think they'll do fine by abiding to the so called "laws" in a country whose only real law is their dictatorship; and foolish enough to think their Windows servers are any less hacker friendly than Google's Linux based servers.




RE: Both lying to themselves
By MozeeToby on 3/25/2010 5:11:24 PM , Rating: 2
There is no real, effective censorship except self-censorship, and that's not to say that there isn't real and effective censorship.

You don't have to stop every single person who tries to speak their mind, you just need to stop enough of them so that everyone gets a little nervous and starts watching themselves. You don't need to arrest every person who uses a proxy to get around the firewall, you just need to arrest enough that everyone knows it's a risk.


RE: Both lying to themselves
By mcnabney on 3/25/2010 5:12:21 PM , Rating: 2
You seem to think that China is just America with short people. I imagine that using proxies and encryption will be noticed. If you show up on some other lists they will send someone by your home and take your computer. Or maybe skip the whole investigation and just throw you in jail because it 'appeared' that you were working your way around their controls.


Has anyone heard about this case?
By Shatbot on 3/28/2010 8:34:54 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Hu

Stern Hu was an executive of an Australian mining company called Rio Tinto. When a big deal fell through where a Chinese firm was going to buy a bigger stake in Rio, he was arrested 1 month later for espionage. Despite requests from the Australian government parts of his trial were conducted in secret, and he has now pled guilty.

He could have been actually guilty, but if he was then there would be no issue with having the evidence shown in a Public hearing.

Scary stuff.




By Lerianis on 3/28/2010 9:59:53 PM , Rating: 2
I heard about this. At first, they were making it out like this guy might be an actual spy, but after looking at his history, there is no way this guy might be a spy.


Google violated what?
By The0ne on 3/25/2010 2:35:08 PM , Rating: 1
I'm confused, what has Google violated? I thought it was the other way around where hackers tried to get into Google? Or is Google in the wrong by voicing their concerns about that attack?

shrug,




RE: Google violated what?
By Luticus on 3/26/2010 8:33:13 AM , Rating: 2
They aren't just voicing their concerns over an attack, they are getting into a pissing match with the government over censorship. What has censorship got to do with the digital attack?


By sapiens74 on 3/25/2010 3:26:48 PM , Rating: 3
Hypocrites!




By NA1NSXR on 3/26/2010 12:02:30 AM , Rating: 3
Would be to spend your time chiding your fellow congressmen to stop indebting our nation to China so that our words to China actually mean something in cases like this.




Word
By damianrobertjones on 3/26/2010 4:33:44 AM , Rating: 3
The E.U. forces MS to remove Windows Media player. (Windows N)

Then the E.U. forces MS to include a browser choice screen.

They comply.

China wants what they want. Microsoft comply.
"Ohhhhhhh you cad MS, how dare you!"

They are staying neutral in a way and I'm afraid a business is out to do just that, business. China's problems are not Microsoft's.




$$$
By bubbastrangelove on 3/25/2010 3:05:50 PM , Rating: 2
How long until China reaches out to a congressman and say's "hey, remember that couple trillion dollars you owe us? How about helping Microsoft and Google see things our way."




Google Violates me everyday!!!
By sapiens74 on 3/25/2010 3:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
and they will continue to do so until better search comes out!




Money makes Micro$oft'$ world go around
By pjs on 3/25/10, Rating: 0
By damianrobertjones on 3/26/2010 4:37:35 AM , Rating: 2
....and so would you be if you owned a business and the food on your table depended on it


Sorry
By Frallan on 3/29/2010 11:38:07 AM , Rating: 2
The "You've got to decide. Do you want to obey the laws of the countries you're in, or not?"- or the "I just followed orders"- defence went out of fashion in Nuernberg somwhere during the period 1945 to 1950...

MS should think again b4 publishing such an answer.

My 0.02$
/F




By MadMan007 on 3/25/2010 3:13:31 PM , Rating: 5
Cool story, bro.


By eddieroolz on 3/25/2010 3:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The USA and other nations are turning into a country like China. The SWAT teams, the LRAD sound-cannons used against peaceful protestors and bystandards at the G20 in Pittsburgh.


Since when has a G20/G8/WTO summit protest been peaceful? There are always a group of anarchists ruining it for everyone else. So I'd suppose you'd rather have the anarchists vandalize everything than be controlled by riot police?

quote:
And Good ol' Microsoft which was created by IBM to get around Anti-trust laws. Micrsoft is a eugenics front. They send $50 to $60 BILLION dollars to "humanitarian efforts" such as vaccines which STERILIZE and cause miscarriages whoever they vaccinate. Dont believe me? Research it for yourself.


I just completely lol'd at this one.
quote:
These guys are all on the same side. Of course microsoft wouldn't make any waves against a tyrannical government like China.


Buddy, if anyone is good at collaborating with the Chinese government, it would be Apple, my friend. Just look at Apple's corporate policy, structure, and history and you'll realize what I mean.


By Taft12 on 3/25/2010 4:50:51 PM , Rating: 2
Since when has a G20/G8/WTO summit protest been peaceful? There are always a group of anarchists ruining it for everyone else. So I'd suppose you'd rather have the anarchists vandalize everything than be controlled by riot police?

It's not always the anarchists. I'm ashamed this happened in my country, but undercover police did some very dangerous "undercover work" in the midst of protesters gathered when Harper, Bush and Calderon met for a Canada/US/Mexico summit.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-m...

Those sure don't look like cops to me... The boots gave them away.


By Sazabi19 on 3/25/2010 3:38:59 PM , Rating: 2
Holy shit dude... really? I think someone forgot to take their meds for while... calm down and go see a shrink or something.


By Reclaimer77 on 3/25/2010 4:58:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And Good ol' Microsoft which was created by IBM to get around Anti-trust laws. Micrsoft is a eugenics front. They send $50 to $60 BILLION dollars to "humanitarian efforts" such as vaccines which STERILIZE and cause miscarriages whoever they vaccinate. Dont believe me? Research it for yourself.


Wow man..just..wow lol

wacko alert !!!


By thurston on 3/25/2010 9:03:18 PM , Rating: 3
I can't believe you just called someone a wacko.


By damianrobertjones on 3/26/2010 7:36:43 AM , Rating: 1
The company I work for has a manufacturing plant in China. Shall we also pull out as we're ALSO supporting this type of thing?????


Congress
By Reclaimer77 on 3/25/10, Rating: -1
RE: Congress
By kfonda on 3/25/2010 3:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
But what about the children... we have to save the children and the planet too.

I just hope congress doesn't do too much more damage before we get a chance to throw them out in November.


RE: Congress
By PitViper007 on 3/25/2010 5:11:24 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately they're going to try. Next on the radar is immigration reform. While I agree it does need reform, just as the medical insurance system (our health care is FINE, LEAVE IT ALONE!) needs reform, I'm sure they'll screw it up just like they did for the so-called Health Care Reform.


RE: Congress
By MadMan007 on 3/25/2010 3:06:30 PM , Rating: 2
Just curious here:
quote:
Unless you cherish the idea of losing your jobs,


NAFTA? 'free trade'? Please let's keep any discussion civil and not pork-ish ;) I am just curious on your thoughts of these tenets of lasseiz-faire capitalism vis-a-vis the quote above.

Just one thing to note in the 24/7 newsbite environment, statements like those by Congresspeople quoted in this article hint at their line of thinking even if they aren't codified in law, yet...Congress makes the laws that the Judiciary then interprets and rules upon. So while such statements may not be law yet it gives insight in to a potential direction that lawmakers might take.


RE: Congress
By lightfoot on 3/25/2010 3:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
No matter what law Congress passes, they can not supersede the laws of China.


RE: Congress
By Jalek on 3/25/2010 4:06:23 PM , Rating: 2
That was why grain sales to China and the "most favored nation" status was debated every year. They were using the only real leverage they had to press China.

Clinton ended that, and now they're a WTO member, so none of that's allowed.


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