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Blog: Hardware Confessions of an HD DVD Owner
Anh Tuan Huynh (Blog) - August 9, 2007 2:02 PM

73 comment(s) - last by dijuremo.. on Aug 24 at 11:30 AM

Toshiba HD-A2 (Source: Toshiba)

Yes, I have an HD DVD player

You know it is hard out here for an HD DVD supporter when the majority seem to support Blu-ray. Every news post mentioning Blu-ray or HD DVD turns into an all-out flame war over which format will win or which is superior.

I have a confession to make though, I support HD DVD. However, I am not an HD DVD fan boy and understand Blu-ray sales are picking up and the storage medium can store more. I bought into HD DVD simply because it was the best deal and we all know everyone acts in their own self interest.

It all began with the Xbox 360 HD DVD player add-on. Microsoft reels you in with its budget price [at the time] to give you a taste of high-definition goodness. From there, I began to build up my collection, movie by movie. After a few months, the shortcomings of the HD DVD player add-on became apparent – the audio.

The Xbox 360 lacked the capabilities to output TrueHD audio in its full glory and down sampled audio to Dolby Digital. This was a few months ago and Microsoft has since updated the software to down sample audio to DTS for movies. However, the audio issues became annoying and I abandoned the add-on before the spring dashboard update.

At the time, I had a library of around 10 movies and did not want to ditch them. Microsoft is clever though, reel you in with the entry-level model to have you craving for more. Crave more I did. I wanted to experience the full glory of the eargasmic TrueHD lossless audio tracks, a feat only accomplishable over HDMI or six-channel analog connections. I contemplated tracking down a closeout Toshiba HD-XA1 or HD-A1, but the prices were still a bit high for my tastes.

After a month or so, I managed to snag a deal too good to pass up. Best Buy had an open box Toshiba HD-A2 for $350. At the same time, Circuit City had a “buy an HD DVD player and receive five free movies in-store instantly” deal going on. I had Best Buy match the Circuit City deal and walked out with the HD-A2 and five free movies, worth $125, for $350. To top it off, Toshiba had its five free movies by mail promotion, worth another $125. So technically, I paid $100 for the player, because I would have probably purchased the movies I received free eventually. You cannot top that with Blu-ray.

This purchase occurred back in May and I have since enjoyed plenty of TrueHD endowed titles. The audible difference is still noticeable, despite my mild audio setup. It is just a fuller and more detailed sound. The Nine Inch Nails: Beside You in Time Live concert HD DVD sounds phenomenal in its full lossless glory. However, not all titles feature TrueHD, but the ones that do are well worth it.

The ultimate test for TrueHD audio would have to be the movie 300. That movie was not easy to find in the small city of Bellingham, WA. I had to drive around for three hours to Best Buy, Circuit City, Target and the mall to find the HD DVD copy sold out everywhere. I managed to snag the last copy at Wal-Mart, out of all places; there were plenty of Blu-ray copies everywhere though.

I can see why the 300 set the high-definition movie sales record. The movie transfer is astonishing and representative of how the movie appeared in theaters – with the intention graininess. The 300 audio track sounds amazing as well – the explosions, sword swings, decking people in the head with the shield – all sounded amazing. This is what high-definition is all about.

Now I cannot confess to supporting HD DVD without a reason for not buying Blu-ray. The answer is simple – costs. I can’t justify spending $450 on a Sony BDP-S301 or $600 for a Panasonic DMP-BD10A. I regularly skim the movie catalog on High-Def Digest and the read the Blu-ray forums on AVS Forum and the only title that would somewhat sway me on BD is Casino Royale, but one title isn’t enough.

I have plenty of titles I can enjoy on HD DVD – The Matrix Trilogy, 300, The Departed, A Scanner Darkly and others. Exclusives are not a big deal to me; it is all about my own personal enjoyment. HD DVD delivers that.

Before people start asking why I did not pick up a Playstation 3 because it serves double duty, I’ll answer that question. There is not a single game on PS3 that I want yet. Sure, the Gran TurismoHD Demo is free and looks nice, but a demo with a few cars is not exactly a console seller for me. I am also a snob in regards to I prefer to have a dedicated player for dedicated tasks. I am not much of a gamer nowadays.

It is not to say I will not purchase a BD player in the future. When the price is right and there is a killer movie worth owning, I will pick one up. My receiver still has one HDMI port ready for it, but a new 1080p TV is next up on the to-buy list.

And for the curious, my mild home theater setup, which is nothing special because I live in an apartment, is as follows:

Sony KV-30HS420 CRT HDTV (1080i)
Toshiba HD-A2
Denon AVR-887
JBL SCS300.5 Theater Pack (For movies)
JBL Sub10
Infinity Primus 150 (For Music)
Xbox 360 Elite
Wii

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true hd

By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 2:24:37 PM , Rating: 2

Is TRUEHD really as good as you make it out to be? I have seen HD-DVD's in action, but i have yet to try out truehd over hdmi. Is it really worth it to upgrade from my xbox 360 hd-dvd addon / have you compared truehd sound to dts not dolby?

RE: true hd

By Anh Huynh on 8/9/2007 2:30:49 PM , Rating: 2

On a good mix, say NiN and 300, there's a fuller sound. There's a greater range IMO. It sounds more natural and not as tinny as some Dolby Digital tracks can get with the upper ranges.

I think its worth it, but the last time I used the HD DVD addon was when everything was being down sampled to Dolby Digital, and it was stuck in a permanent "night mode."

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RE: true hd

By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 2:36:19 PM , Rating: 2

hmmm, i would still be really interested in knowing the difference between DTS and TRUEHD though. DTS being 1.5mbps (max) compared to Dolbys 640kpbs bitrate, i can tell the difference between the two, with results usually compared to what you are explaining from the jump from DD to TRUEHD, i.e fuller sound, greater range. But will the average joe notice the difference between DTS and tHD, or do you need a high end system to take advantage?

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RE: true hd

By Anh Huynh on 8/9/2007 2:41:08 PM , Rating: 2

My system isn't that high end and I can tell the difference. I think a quality HTIB setup, ie Onkyo or Denon, should reveal the differences.

I don't think the average joe could tell a difference. I know average joe's that are happy with Sony Dream Systems and think Bose is godly.

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RE: true hd

By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 3:08:31 PM , Rating: 3

quote:
I don't think the average joe could tell a difference. I know average joe's that are happy with Sony Dream Systems and think Bose is godly.

haha very true, too bad people dont realize how overated BOSE really is, and in most instances their speakers actually distort the sound into what bose calls 'what the original artist wanted us to hear'. My friend has an Acoustimass-15 (one of the most popular models in recent memory), and one day i went over to his house so i could hear his 'amazing setup' while waiting for him to pick the music he wanted i started looking over the specs in the manual and noticed something funny,

Frequency Response sattelites: 280 Hz to 13.3k Hz at ±10.5 dB
Frequency Response Subwoofer: 46Hz to 202Hz at ±2.3 dB

now i am no mathematician but last time i checked the number after 202 is 203 not 280, so where the heck did bose put the remaining 80hz? and how did they decide what part of the audio spectrum they would remove.

My friend called BOSE and asked what was up, and they said its how the internal processing works, and that it was the best way to achieve (as i mentioned before) 'what the original artist wanted us to hear'.

So after laughing at my friend for around 10 minutes, he returned the BOSE set and bought some nice NHT speakers and a yammy receiver for the same price, and it blew him out of the water. He wont be making the same mistake again ;)

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RE: true hd

By Hare on 8/9/2007 4:25:51 PM , Rating: 2

The remaining 80hz is still there. It just doesn't show up even with loose specs like ±10.5 dB. That frequency response is absolutely horrible. Most manufacturers stick with ±3dB and even the poorest speaker can quite easily achieve 80hz-16kHz. Giving speaker specs with ±10dB margin is ridiculous. 10dB equals 3 times the power requirements and a 10dB increase is sensed as doubling of volume.

Greetings from:
20hz - 25kHz ±3dB :)

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RE: true hd

By RubberJohnny on 8/9/2007 6:52:48 PM , Rating: 2

Well I hope you dog has been enjoying that top 5khz of your audio ;)

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RE: true hd

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 8:38:33 AM , Rating: 2

What does this have to do with anything? Frequencies between 200hz - 280hz is audible by the human ear. Bose essentially cuts out the 80hz via the internal crossovers. So the missing information definitely goes by by.

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RE: true hd

By masher2

(blog) on 8/10/2007 10:09:43 AM , Rating: 2

That range is still there, just at a reduced volume level. 200-280hz is a large portion of the musical and vocal range (Middle C is in there), so if it was wholly inaudible, you'd hear a lot of blank moments in your favorite music :)

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RE: true hd

By rushfan2006 on 8/10/2007 11:13:04 AM , Rating: 5

The funny thing, reading all these kinds of posts, about "audiophile debates"....99% of the general public likely enjoys their speakers and think it is awesome and its only until an audiophile friend of theirs starts cutting it up or talking smack on it that they start to double guess their purchase and go "oh no".....

So then my point is very simply this --- if I buy brand A speakers and all my music and movies sound great as far as I'm concerned on them....why the hell do I care what some audio geek tells me?

;)

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RE: true hd

By masher2

(blog) on 8/10/2007 11:33:44 AM , Rating: 2

True enough. What I find amusing is that half the audiophiles who crow over their speakers flat response are simultaneously using their equalizers to add or subtract a little bass or treble.

Sound quality is very subjective, a perfectly flat response curve isn't neccesarily the one that sounds best, particular when most of us don't listen to our stereos in perfect anechoic chambers.

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RE: true hd

By Oregonian2 on 8/10/2007 3:30:26 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Sound quality is very subjective, a perfectly flat response curve isn't neccesarily the one that sounds best, particular when most of us don't listen to our stereos in perfect anechoic chambers.

Didn't think an audiophile would be in an anechoic chamber, but rather in a LEDE room (although I suppose the "DE" portion is anechoic of sorts). Or are LEDE's passe nowdays? :-)

But back to pragmatism, for some things it's not audiophile vs rest of the world. It's rest of the world vs crap. And Bose isn't pure crap, but it's (IMO) marginal crap selling for audiophile prices. It's still better than pure crap. I'm not an audiophile by the way, our TV's 5.1 system is just Energy stuff and my computer room still has my ancient AR-9 speakers (they still work!). We do have some really pretty Rosewood B&O speakers in one room ("phase" jargon and the like) but I don't think those count. Good for imaging, but bass doesn't compare with those ancient AR-9's. :-)

It's part of the learning curve. One's system sounds fine until one hears something better -- and that sometimes isn't wanted because one's system sounded fine until that point. I know someone who built his own speakers, and they're absolutely gorgeous to look at, a real woodworker's delight. Sound isn't the greatest though, and it's a little on the "boomy" side but it does sound a lot better than what he had before which was pretty bad. What can one say (not me!)?

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RE: true hd

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 12:06:19 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
So then my point is very simply this --- if I buy brand A speakers and all my music and movies sound great as far as I'm concerned on them....why the hell do I care what some audio geek tells me?

Um because you are wasting your money? in the case of bose, biggest misconceptions in any electronics industry when it comes to how many people think its the best, and will pay 2-3 times more than what they are worth compared to other top of the line speakers that will sound just as good.
Audiophile or not, if you think that 'it sounds ok to me' justifies paying up to thousands more for an inferior product, you are a sucker, theres no other way to put it.

I know you could make the same argument about companies such as Sony, but i can not think of any sony product that would sell for 2-3 times more than another companies comparable product. with LCD's for example, you can not compare a Sony HDTV, to say the bestbuy brand tv that is the same size, with the same specs, In this case you get what you pay for.

In Boses case, you pay more, get nothing in return. So what i am getting at, is if you can pay 1/2 the amount for the same quality, or the same price for something that exceeds what BOSE has to offer by far, why would you ever choose Bose, regardless if it sounds 'good' to you or not.

Unless of course you like wasting your money for no reason, you do not need to be an audiophile to take advantage of this fact.

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RE: true hd

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 12:09:09 PM , Rating: 4

*needs edit feature*
In simple terms, why would you buy a pontiac sunfire when you could get a BMW for the same price ;)

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RE: true hd

By killerroach on 8/13/2007 3:55:50 PM , Rating: 2

I've tested (with a sine wave generator in a high school physics lab) that I can hear frequencies up to about 33-36Khz depending on the day (yes, that does include some dog whistles... they aren't easy to hear, but they're usually audible). Granted, I'm young, and have genetics on my side in terms of hearing, so YMMV.

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RE: true hd

By George Powell on 8/10/2007 2:08:53 PM , Rating: 2

Sitting on the other side of the fence I use the MPCM output over HDMI on Bluray going to my Yamaha Amp.
The difference is huge. I would liken the difference between Prologic and DD.
I don't regard my system as high end, altough I'm sure most poeple out there won't spend what I do on home cinema kit. Nearly £5000 ($10000) now.

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Going Blu a bad choice

By bozilla on 8/9/2007 9:55:47 PM , Rating: 5

I always have hard time looking at anyone recommending Blu-Ray seriously.

I always have a problem when someone tries to tell me that:

* sub $200 players
* No regional coding
* Plethora of titles from Universal, Warner, Paramount and other 15+ studios
* Revolutionary interactive features
* Web connectivity that still BLOWS my mind - just look Motorhead's HD DVD and that other HD DVD that allows you to watch constnatly updated trailers
* Increased value for the money (meaning even if I buy a combo at prices today, I'm still spending less money then buying a DVD and hi-def counterpart separately)
* Overall compatibility with older DVD (cause you know it will take a few years to go all hi-def and I want to carry some of my movies with me and share them with my family)
* Same video and audio quality (you can spin bitrates as much as you want but I still think that majority of HD DVD titles look better..and others agree - read Hot Fuzz)

is somehow SO BAD and that I should just go and drop it and immeditely buy:

* $500+ players
* DRM enforced and regionally coded discs that I can use only in country of origin
* No combo capability meaning less compatibilty - meaning that my family needs to buy more $500+ blu-ray players in order to watch my collection if I want to borrow. But hey, you know BORROWING IS NOT OK for BDA. They want everyone to buy their own copy. How customer oriented.
* Unfinished specs creating all current BD players obsolete before they are even out
* That just watching a movie without any features or interactive elements is actually OK
* That going 4:1 then 3:1 and 2:1 in sales with increased user base over the last couple of months, is actually kicking butt
* Overall more expensive software (compared non-combo HD DVD to BD)
* Trailing encoding practices that provide overall worse picture on many titles
* And a worry that rot problem MIGHT kill my collection as noticed on several titles

Yeah, Blu-Ray kicks ASS!

RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By TurtleBay on 8/9/2007 10:55:05 PM , Rating: 2

I agree about the DRM. If one format really wanted to win, the organizers/supporters of it should get rid of the DRM, and it would immediately take the lead...

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By masher2

(blog) on 8/9/2007 10:59:25 PM , Rating: 2

HD-DVD hasn't "got rid" of the DRM, but it certainly has much less of it than BD. As for the 'benefits' of the HD-DVD combo discs, personally I think they're hurting the format. I own both a first-gen and a second-gen player...but its rare I'll buy a combo disc. They're just not worth the extra cost. In most cases, I'll opt for the plain old DVD instead.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 12:44:17 AM , Rating: 2

I just buy whatever movies I feel like. The combo doesn't really bother me because I still have a regular DVD player in my bedroom. I prefer not to purchase a combo disk, but its not too much more expensive to bother me.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By CorrND on 8/13/2007 10:09:15 AM , Rating: 2

I also avoid the combo discs unless I REALLY want the movie. The combo concept seems stupid to me. Consider both sides:

a) You jumped into the battle and own HD-DVD equipment. Why would you EVER decide watch the DVD side of a combo disc? There's no way you'd willingly take the disc to another part of your house with a DVD-only player instead of playing it on the HD-DVD system.

b) You're staying with DVD until the battle is over. Why would you EVER decide to pay twice as much to buy the HD-DVD combo version over the regular DVD version of a movie? Maybe it's "future proof" but if you're the kind of person waiting until the battle is over, you don't even know that HD-DVD will win.

(of course, I believe in a future with combo players...)

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By dooledav on 8/10/2007 4:43:50 AM , Rating: 2

And I have a hard time taking advise from anyone who sticks their head in the sand and refuses to take in whats happening in the real world.

Overall compatibilty ??? Please don't try to spread more misinformation by insinuating the BD players aren't capable of playing standard DVDs it the same old lie I hear time and time again from HD-DVD fans. BD players are completely backwards compatible with DVDs.

I'm happy that "you think" the majority of HD DVDs look better than blu-ray. Go to HiDefDigest and read the reviews of some of Universals (the only major studio exclusively supporting HD-DVD)recent releases for a more unbiased view of the quality.

And disk rot is the biggest piece of misinformation I have seen currently spread on the web. the problem was with one batch of disks on one title release (the prestige) how about having to boil your HD-DVD disks before it'll play? thats a killer feature.

from a format that had the world in the palm of it's hand to a format that stuggles to maintain a 35% market share week on week, yeah HD-DVD is on the verge of big things

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 8:34:10 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
lease don't try to spread more misinformation by insinuating the BD players aren't capable of playing standard DVDs it the same old lie I hear time and time again from HD-DVD fans. BD players are completely backwards compatible with DVDs.

Actually! dvd playback is not in the BD spec layed out by sony ;) that means it is up the manufacturer to add dvd compatibility. So it would not surprise me one bit, if a few of the original BD players did not play DVD's. one could assume though if the player manufacturer knew what was good for them, they would have dvd support ;)

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By Topweasel on 8/10/2007 8:10:09 PM , Rating: 2

Not only that, but its a fact you have to read the spec sheets really carefully to make sure it plays CD's most if not all first gens don't. That means since they don't have network connections the only way to update them is to burn it on DVD or have it shipped to you.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By Kamasutra on 8/11/2007 2:44:17 PM , Rating: 2

Wow, what a fair and balanced comparison. You certainly do have many good points, but I just have to address some of the other ones that have not yet been addressed by others.

* You talk of great studio support for HD DVD, but conveniently leave out that Blu-ray has more studio support.
* You can find sub-$500 Blu-ray players, but I've never seen a new sub-$200 HD DVD player unless you're referring to the Xbox 360 "add-on" (which as the above article points out is somewhat crippled).
* Blu-ray has the "capability" to have combo discs even though I don't know of any movie that uses it.
* I'm not sure where you shop, but where I shop -- Amazon -- Blu-ray software is no more expensive than HD DVD.
* You said "country of origin" when you should have said "region". There are three regions each of which are composed of many countries.
* HD DVD is just as guilty of having movies released without special features.

Now just some other things I thought I'd add. I'd like to know what you're referring to when you say borrowing is not OK. I'm not worried about my Blu-ray player becoming obsolete as it's a PS3 and since everything is done is software it wouldn't be too difficult for Sony to make updates; that and the PS3 seems to be a high priority for Sony. Even considering all of Blu-ray's current shortcomings, I have trouble recommending the format which I believe will lose. Universal recently said that if it were to go format neutral HD DVD would be in serious jeopardy of losing. I won't get into too much detail for why I believe Blu-ray will win, but company support seems to be steering this war. I'm not just talking about studios and retailers, but companies who sell computers such as Sony, Dell, and Apple are exclusively Blu-ray, and it is in the computer that Blu-ray is able to better differentiate itself (in my opinion as being superior). As for movies, all of the interactive and web-enabled content you mentioned will be added by the time there is mainstream adoption of either format and companies like Warner have said that once the BD-J spec is finalized and there is sufficient hardware support they would likely re-release the movies missing such features.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By omnicronx on 8/12/2007 3:01:06 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
You can find sub-$500 Blu-ray players, but I've never seen a new sub-$200 HD DVD player unless you're referring to the Xbox 360 "add-on" (which as the above article points out is somewhat crippled).

I have seen HD-DVD players on sale for 200-230$, not saying everyone will have that deal, but i have seen it.

quote:
Blu-ray has the "capability" to have combo discs even though I don't know of any movie that uses it.

I think you are wrong on this one, DVD compatibility is not even in the Blueray spec, its up the the manufacturer to add DVD support, so to think BD has the capability to play combo discs when all players are not required to be able to play DVD's seems a bit off. I remember reading a while back that this was one of the main selling points for HD-DVD's. Correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think you are right on this one.

quote:
* HD DVD is just as guilty of having movies released without special features.

Hes not saying the movies don't have special features, hes saying some players do not have BDjava and physically can not play the special features. I have not heard of an HD-DVD player not playing special features, as long as you have the latest firmware update. furthermore all pre BD 1.1 players (which is not mandatory until November 2007) will not be guaranteed to support special features among other things in future releases.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By Kamasutra on 8/12/2007 7:37:32 AM , Rating: 2

I know that Blu-ray players don't require DVD playback, although I don't know of any players that do not have it. I think maybe you misunderstand the purpose of having a DVD portion on the disc, because it is not to play it on your Blu-ray player. As far as me being wrong, see http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2004/victor/041224BDDVD_... Now whether it is in the spec I'm not sure, but I was just pointing out that the format has the capability.

quote:
Hes not saying the movies don't have special features

quote:
That just watching a movie without any features or interactive elements is actually OK

Perhaps I misunderstood him. If "BD-J 1.1" were there it would have been much clearer. But as I said, the PS3 seems to be a pretty safe player.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By CZroe on 8/13/2007 12:56:14 PM , Rating: 2

I don't know where you get your information, but they not only require DVD *playback* in BD players, they require DVD *upscaling.* You're thinking of the technology... the technology does not support DVD playback, but for market reasons it is required through brute-force (extra components that CAN play it).

Read the Disney Blu-Ray information pages. It very clearly says that all BD players support upscaling DVDs, which is why I was pissed about the PS3 until they finally added that feature.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By omnicronx on 8/14/2007 1:35:39 PM , Rating: 2

from wiki:

quote:
While it is not compulsory for manufacturers, the Blu-ray Disc Association recommends that Blu-ray Disc drives should be capable of reading standard DVDs for backward compatibility. For instance, Samsung's first Blu-ray Disc drive can read CDs, regular DVDs, and Blu-ray Discs. All other Blu-ray Disc players released support DVD playback as well, however not all support CD playback. This includes Sony, Panasonic, Philips, LG, Pioneer and PC-based players from Alienware, Sony, and Dell. LG has also produced a player that is capable of playing both Blu-ray and HD DVD formats.

Support for upscaling by no uncertain terms means that DVD playback must be supported, all it means is the technology to upscale must be present within the drive. The technology to read DVD's and CDs has to do with the special laser components and pickup units the manufacturer has to add to gain DVD/CD support.

And although every drive released does have DVD support, the point i was getting too is that you can not expect dual format BD/DVD discs in the future because there could be a player at some point in time, that does not support DVD playback. And has nothing to do with the fact upscalling technology (which is processed by the internal processor, and has nothing to do with the disc drive itself) is required

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By CZroe on 8/13/2007 12:43:14 PM , Rating: 2

BD J *IS* finalized. DailyTech is wrong" Profile 1.1 adds a secondary video decoder. BD J has always been there.

Wait! Actually, it doesn't "add" the decoder function either! It simply makes it "mandatory" instead of "optional." HD-DVD has many option specs... like TrueHD. As far as we know, some players could support it currently and studios don't want to bother re-making all their HD-DVD IME (PiP) content for a subset of Blu-Ray users.

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RE: Going Blu a bad choice

By BikeDude on 8/16/2007 6:51:08 PM , Rating: 1

quote:
* No regional coding

I'd like to believe that, but I want some references.

The bastards who run most studios seem to think it would be a crime if someone purchased a title in Asia and played it in Europe (or vice-versa). G-- forbid I should buy a movie while on vacation on a rainy day! (stupid f---s)

Yes, I am a bit upset by the regional codings. That and the way they force me to watch certain parts of the DVD. I want to press play and immediately get to the movie. No previews. No "thou shall not steal". No endless barrage of swirling logos and menu animations. Just give me the movie!

(I have noticed that my friends who pirate movies, get what I want, whereas I who stupidly pay for everything I watch, get much less. Why is that? Why would the studios shoot themselves in the leg like that? Are they insanely stupid or just criminally insane?)

I apologize for my rough language, but this topic really gets me hot under the collar, and not in a good way.

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Great

By bozilla on 8/9/2007 3:05:06 PM , Rating: 4

Good for you Anh.

You just can't beat the full featured HD DVD players with great movie library and no regional coding allowing HD DVD people to import movies from all over the world including Blu-Ray exclusive titles.

There's a reason why Amazon selected Toshiba's 3rd Gen HD DVD players as top picks for this season. They've been flying off the shelves non stop.

The reason why Blu-Ray is only perceived as winning format is one sided numbers that are took out of context, where they don't compare number of total units to those number of sales, but just take out 2:1 ratios.

Just PR that's all.

On the other hand, what most Blu-Ray owners don't know is that ALL Blu-Ray players even the ones coming to the market in upcoming months are NOT BD 1.1 certified (except Denon's $2000 Blu-Ray player). This means that users are buying an already feature-crippled players and will very easy end up with a BD player without the ability to play any special features.

It is completely apsurd to call something like that a WINNER and superior when all it will be able to do in most cases is just play feature film, and all that for $500+ price. It wasn't even confirmed with 100% certainty that PS3 can be flashed to be 1.1 compliant.

Anh, I'm glad you posted your article because there's an obvious bias among all tech web sites against HD DVD. Even DailyTech joins the Blu-CoolAid crowd.

You see it's not only that Engadget, DailyTech and others post biased and PR charged articles about anything Blu-Ray related, this is what news reporting is about, the problem here is that these web sites that got their reputation about covering more or less objectively all tech stuff, now simply avoid reporting certain HD DVD positive news.

This is how you get a Blu-Ray winning spin on everything. Blu-Ray is everywhere in the news and HD DVD is simply sabotaged and kept tucked away. Even if someone reports something positive, the news posters spin the news again like "well this might be good for HD DVD but we know Blu-Ray will win".

It's pretty bad and unprofessional. But I think this will be all good, because once you lose your credibility in reporting and people see your bias it's hard to go back. All these fanboys can just continue a MOVIE format who's existence depends on a GAMING console. LOL. The pure brute numbers approach will fade away soon enough, pretty much when people start playing games. Just watch.

My 2 cents.

RE: Great

By deeznuts on 8/9/2007 5:15:33 PM , Rating: 3

Nielsen VideoScan is unbiased. Go check out their numbers, with no spinning from BD/Sony.

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom080507/...

It's on page 2, ignore Fez's scary face on the cover.

Week ended 7/29 - 66% BD, 34% HD DVD.
YTD - 67% BD, 33% HD DVD.
Since Inception - 60%, 40%.

Remember, HD DVD came out first, and at the beginning of this year, since inception was 50% each essentially. So I'm not sure what spinning you are referring to, Your paragraph talking about it wasn't clear.

quote:
The reason why Blu-Ray is only perceived as winning format is one sided numbers that are took out of context, where they don't compare number of total units to those number of sales, but just take out 2:1 ratios.

Just PR that's all.

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RE: Great

By deeznuts on 8/9/2007 5:21:54 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
On the high-definition disc charts, 300 was the top seller on both the Blu-ray Disc and the HD DVD charts. The Blu-ray version outsold the HD DVD edition by a margin of nearly 2 to 1.

That should feed the BD fanboys (I think BD will win, it's winning, but I have to get HD DVD for Heroes and Battlestar Galactica)

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breakin...

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RE: Great

By leexgx on 8/9/2007 8:06:17 PM , Rating: 2

i want BD for its Disk size 25gb/50gb over HD-DVD 15gb/30gb you can fit alot on there

unlike dvd+/- formats both was the Same size disk so did not matter who win on the comsumer side both are the same data size on BD and HD-dvd have Big gap between the 2

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RE: Great

By Hemipower on 8/10/2007 2:17:07 PM , Rating: 2

I have a ps3 and I certainly hope that bd1.1 will be added, but I rather have 1080/24p and hdmi 1.3 on a 500 ps3 instead of a 600 stb hddvd (xa2) player. I think I rather have the 1080/24p than have those extra feature things. I definitely won't be buying a $2000 Denon overpriced BD player!

Those import movies sometimes don't have English menus, although to have a Blu-ray exclusive on Hdvd, I guess I could deal with that.

When will the first hdvd player come out with 1080/24p.

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RE: Great

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 2:47:12 PM , Rating: 2

The HD-A20 and HD-XA2 will receive 1080p/24p support in a September firmware update IIRC. As Master Kenobi pointed out earlier, the A20 can be had for $320 from Amazon, which is a pretty good bargain.

HDMI 1.3 hasn't shown any benefits yet, nor has 1080p24. The problem with 1080p24 is the TVs that support 1080p24 input with a 120 Hz display, doesn't process it like it's meant to. Instead of taking 24 Hz x 5 = 120 Hz, the TV processing engine takes 24 Hz -> 60 Hz -> 120 Hz. Hopefully that'll be fixed in the next generation, but as it stands, there's not much of a benefit with 1080p24 support.

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RE: Great

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 2:47:16 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
When will the first hdvd player come out with 1080/24p.

In version 3 players, set to come out real soon, some other rev 2 players will receive a firmware update.

as for 1080p/24p.. totally overated, wont make a difference until more TV's start supporting 120hz (24hzx5)
If you can tell the difference between 1080p source outputted at 1080/60i and 1080p/24 and you dont have a 100 inch screen, you are one of the few people in the world with vision better than 20/10 ;) Some people would even argue that 1080p@24hz makes quick moving scenes look worse than on 1080/60i

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Thanks for the details

By OxBow on 8/9/2007 3:52:32 PM , Rating: 2

I appreciate the comments about the 360 add-on. I'd been considering and was pretty turned off about having to listen to jet engine noise of the unit while playing a movie. It's good to know they've upgraded the sound for it, although as you point out, a dedicated player makes more sense.

With that said, one of the reasons I bought my PS3 was for BD. A lot of people parse the sales statistics and say you can't include game console sales with player sales, which is utter rubish. I bought the PS3 to play movies & some games, as did most people. I really like the high def movies I've been getting from netflix on blue-ray (I prefer to rent movies instead of owning them). The PS3 is a fine movie player and does it's job very well.

If I get an HD-DVD player, I'll probably look at a standalone unit, in large part because of this article. Thanks

RE: Thanks for the details

By omnicronx on 8/9/07, Rating: -1

RE: Thanks for the details

By deeznuts on 8/9/2007 5:07:10 PM , Rating: 2

And the numbers say BD media is outselling HD DVD hand over fist. And according to blockbuster, who is out to make money, not be a fanboy company, it is being rented more as well.

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RE: Thanks for the details

By masher2

(blog) on 8/9/2007 5:59:04 PM , Rating: 3

Blockbuster signed an exclusivity deal with Sony. They're being paid for BD shelf-space. You can't read anything into their "our customers have spoken" response beyond their desire to put a positive spin on their actions.

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RE: Thanks for the details

By kenji4life on 8/9/2007 6:18:15 PM , Rating: 2

Indeed, how could Blockbuster sell more HDDVDs when they only carry blu-ray. I noticed they stopped renting out HDDVD's before they even brought up the exclusivity deal. My local blockbuster just flat out stopped carrying HDDVDs. Doesn't seem like that would earn them any more money, unless it's coming from Sony's pocket.

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RE: Thanks for the details

By philsworth on 8/10/2007 9:36:47 AM , Rating: 2

I got a PS3 and since getting it in March I have watched about 1 or 2 Blu Ray films a week on it. I am very much into film and I also watch about 1 or 2 upconverted DVDs.

I have a 1080p TV and the PS3 is very quiet during playback. I used to watch DVDs on the PC before when I rented a room, before I bought my own house, and appreciate the quietness a player must have to be usable.

I like to rent films, I can't for the life of me see the point of owning films on disc as I might watch an absolutely excellent film maybe an estimated maximum of about 5 times during my life.

My brother on the other hands is a real collector and has sh*t loads of DVDs. He has an Xbox 360 but would never use it for film playback (because of the noise). He doesn't like the idea of upgrading to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

To sum up, I think that the PS3 is putting Blu Ray players in the hands of people who feel they might as well use it as they already have it (renting films) but HD-DVD and stand alone BLu Ray are targeting early adopting video-phile type movies collectors, a group I believe to be, sceptical of the new formats and the format war.

Point is: There are more people who like to rent films than buy them and I think attach rates for either HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are therefore mostly useless.

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RE: Thanks for the details

By Natfly on 8/10/2007 10:38:12 AM , Rating: 3

quote:
I bought the PS3 to play movies & some games, as did most people.

Your post reminded me of something I was reading the other day, where most ps3 owners don't even know that it can play blu-ray:

quote:
According to the results, only 40% of PlayStation 3 owners polled were aware the machine had a Blu-ray player and about 50% of that number had popped in a Blu-ray movie during the last 10 times they turned on the machine -- the other half didn't use the feature.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3161833

While you obviously can't disregard the console sales, they have nowhere near the significance of standalones.

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umm

By griffynz on 8/10/2007 10:20:59 AM , Rating: 2

I might be wrong so just flame me.

I thought that trueHD was decoded onboard, then passed over RCA cables to a AVR. I say this as I have yet to find an AVR that can decode trueHD. I believe that if you send the signal over HDMI the receiver will downgrade the signal to Dolby Digital anyway. This is why I haven't brought a new Denon AVR yet as I would rather use a HDMI cable than 8 RCAs (7.1)

RE: umm

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 10:38:09 AM , Rating: 2

All the HD DVD players, except the 360 add-on, decode TrueHD internally. There are two output methods, 1) via six-channel analog and 2) as multi-channel PCM, or LPCM, over HDMI. However, not all receivers support LPCM over HDMI. The HDMI switcher only receivers lack the capabilities of processing HDMI audio.

Decoding it inside the player and passing it as LPCM sends a raw, uncompressed digital signal to the receiver to decode, in the end, it still has to pass through the DACs of the receiver.

The new generation of receivers with HDMI 1.3 can decode TrueHD, but none of the players can send out a raw TrueHD signal yet. And in the end, its still passing through the receiver DACs. There seems to be a misconception that a receiver decoding TrueHD would be superior to say the player decoding and sending it as LPCM, but that's all fluff.

And the current generation of Denon AVR's, anything higher than the 887/2307CI can accept LPCM audio over HDMI.

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RE: umm

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 10:57:27 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
The new generation of receivers with HDMI 1.3 can decode TrueHD, but none of the players can send out a raw TrueHD signal yet. And in the end, its still passing through the receiver DACs. There seems to be a misconception that a receiver decoding TrueHD would be superior to say the player decoding and sending it as LPCM, but that's all fluff.

Bingo ;) TrueHD is a lossless codec, essentially meaning it compresses 7.1 channel LPCM with no loss of data, kind of like what a zip file does (or FLAK for audio). So regardless of where the audio is decoded (player or receiver), its essentialy going to end up being 7.1 channel LPCM, although some argue TrueHD offers some unique features that can possibly make it sound better (dynamic range etc..). They are both the same in my books, which makes me wonder why BD only requires LPCM with TrueHD being an optional codec. I guess that extra space comes in handy for something, useless in my books though ;)

p.s the only advantage of decoding TrueHD receiver side, is that 1:1 bit transfer is available. I dont know if this actually makes a difference as you mentioned no players can do it yet, but i am going to guess nobody is going to be able to tell the difference.

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RE: umm

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 11:51:33 AM , Rating: 2

Blu-ray requires and LPCM soundtrack because decoding TrueHD isn't mandatory in the BD spec, whereas it is a requirement of the HD DVD specification, thus all HD DVD players can decode it. I view BD as an unfinished spec that keeps evolving, so people who buy earlier players end up getting gypped, ie TrueHD, BD-Java, etc...

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RE: umm

By CZroe on 8/13/2007 1:09:05 PM , Rating: 2

BD movies do not require multi-channel LPCM. Just like HD-DVD, the players do. Stop equating it with TrueHD! Decompressed, a 7.1 channel TrueHD stream is identical to a 7.1 uncompressed LPCM stream made from the same source, but LPCM has nothing to do with equating TrueHD without compression. You see, even DVD had LPCM uncompressed stereo. It's required because it is the base-level of royalty-free compatability. It's essentially waveforem audio (WAV)/CD Audio in a file/substream. Once again: No royalties, base-line compatability. What that means is that it's not up to what your receiver supports or what your player decodes. Can you imagine what it would be like if you bought a movie that ONLY had Dolby TrueHD and you couldn't listen to it? THAT'S why LPCM is mandatory on every title: Even just a 2.0 stereo LPCM track. Heck, when a 5.1 DVD has a 2.0 stereo LPCM track, I use it because my laptop speakers aren't loud enough for DTS/DD source audio. My Portable Media Center is so low that I have to make all my encodes from the stereo track or convert and amplify the 5.1 track.

It has NOTHING TO DO with an unfinished spec. Both require it for the same exact reasons.

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Price

By Master Kenobi

(blog) on 8/10/2007 8:27:08 AM , Rating: 2

I would like to point out that Amazon currently lists the HD-A20 1080p Toshiba HD DVD Player for $329.99 and the 5 free movies mail in deal. That is a sexy price, very sexy price... Infact I'm going to buy it right now, shipping free :)

RE: Price

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 8:40:08 AM , Rating: 2

buy me one too? i'll be your friend!

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RE: Price

By Master Kenobi

(blog) on 8/10/2007 1:26:12 PM , Rating: 2

Sorry, not in the budget. I had the cash on hand for only 1 player this month. Had to replace my fried Raptor 74g this week. :(

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Props

By JTKTR on 8/9/2007 2:20:36 PM , Rating: 2

It's impressive that you have the guts to come out and admit that. But in all seriousness, it is odd that everyone i know seems to have Blu-Ray while in reality it's fairly even. Wonder why...

RE: Props

By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 2:30:06 PM , Rating: 3

could be wrong but it seems the technically savvy are swaying towards BD, while the average joe, who just wants to take advantage of their nice new TV, goes for what they know best, price. I for one would buy HD-DVD regardless as they are both basically equal, and i don't enjoy sony shoving 'WERE BETTER' down my throat as usual. If sony's BD was superior, id buy it, but its just not, and the price certainly does not warrant it either.

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HD-DVD reason

By flykrs1 on 8/9/2007 8:03:07 PM , Rating: 2

My reasons for buying a Toshiba HD-XA2 were simple: my Pioneer DVD died and it is the best DVD player for the money. I've compared it side by side to a $900 Denon which it clearly surpassed in picture quality. So for $350 less I have better quality and also added HD-DVD capability. The Silicon Optix Reon is very impressive, to surpass it on a Blu-Ray player you will need to spend $2000 for a Denon with the SO Realta processor. On my 1080P TV standard DVD's look amazing. If my DVD player hadn't died I was still leaning towards HD, albiet I wanted to wait a lot longer so that video transfer quality would match HD (both formats) capability. Some movies are better than others that's for sure. IMAX titles are great.

Just my 2 cents. Both sides are definitely statistics manipulators.

RE: HD-DVD reason

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 12:43:09 AM , Rating: 2

I think the new Samsungs, the BDP-1200, have the ReonHQV.

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Dashboard updates

By DingieM on 8/10/2007 3:48:12 AM , Rating: 2

Its a pity you dumped the add-on before the spring update because a few things were added relating to audio. After that a patch came out which fixed some narrating issues.
Thought it was that but correct me if I'm wrong.

The add-on is performing real good I heard but the Live Video Marketplace is a more affordable approach and enough for me.

RE: Dashboard updates

By Anh Huynh on 8/10/2007 10:38:59 AM , Rating: 2

Spring update or not, I still wouldn't be able to receive TrueHD audio, which was the reason for the standalone :).

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beta ray or blu max

By Lightning III on 8/10/2007 9:01:41 AM , Rating: 2

everybody knows its price that will win this war thats why Sony is out bribing retailers like target to only carry beta ray

and this wont be the first time cheaper beats out bigger capacity

what pisses me off is you can pick up a internal blu max reader for around 300 bucks but

bu as far as HD goes were stuck with microshafts POS extenal

anyway want to sell your add on for 75 bucks I want to tear one aprt to mod it to an internal

RE: beta ray or blu max

By omnicronx on 8/10/2007 9:35:11 AM , Rating: 2

thats what ebay is for, i have seen many barebones drives selling for about the price you just mentioned.

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Wow

By h0mi on 8/10/2007 9:38:52 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
After a month or so, I managed to snag a deal too good to pass up. Best Buy had an open box Toshiba HD-A2 for $350. At the same time, Circuit City had a “buy an HD DVD player and receive five free movies in-store instantly” deal going on. I had Best Buy match the Circuit City deal and walked out with the HD-A2 and five free movies, worth $125, for $350.

Consider yourself very lucky because BB rarely does PMs like this anymore.

RE: Wow

By Anh Huynh on 8/11/2007 3:28:51 AM , Rating: 2

It took them about half an hour to find the deal on the Circuit City website and another 20 minutes for the manager to go for it. It was worth it though.

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Stupid

By MisterChristopher on 8/11/2007 4:55:19 AM , Rating: 2

I don't understand why Sony did not integrate their DSD technology into their BD. That would have made the audio close to the technology level that we were at in 1999. Unfortunatly we have MPCM crap which is still limited by the fact that PCM audio sucks at any sample frequency.

RE: Stupid

By MrScary on 8/11/2007 7:28:18 AM , Rating: 2

The point is simple
Educate yourself before you make a purchase read some reviews you will be amazed at the sound that you can achieve with little money. You do not have to become some flipped out nut ball that has to roll tubes in his preamp to finally realize he has more distortion than a 20 year old solid state amp just read a bit and research.
Today technology has improved so much that the so called "Crap" speakers and systems are are at a very high quality.
in the 500.00- 1000.00 range.

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Any HD-DVD rental services?

By kmmatney on 8/13/2007 9:45:16 AM , Rating: 2

So, if Blockbuster only carries Blueray, are there any HD-DVD rental services (NetFlix?). I usually rent movies using the RedBox service at McDonalds. There are 4 of them within 2 miles of my house. I'd probbly pick whatever HD format showed up in the RedBox machines first as the format of my choice.

RE: Any HD-DVD rental services?

By CZroe on 8/13/2007 1:11:21 PM , Rating: 2

Blockbuster carries HD-DVD at every store that formerly carried BD... that hasn't changed yet. In fact, they rent both online too.

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A contradiction?

By theflux on 8/13/2007 1:28:08 PM , Rating: 2

"I am also a snob in regards to I prefer to have a dedicated player for dedicated tasks."

If that was true, why did you purchase the 360 Add-on in the first place?

RE: A contradiction?

By Anh Huynh on 8/13/2007 3:47:18 PM , Rating: 2

It was cheap at $200 and I took it apart for the two articles I wrote for DailyTech. I bought it the first day it was available.

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Hypocritical?

By Goty on 8/13/2007 2:40:02 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
I am also a snob in regards to I prefer to have a dedicated player for dedicated tasks. I am not much of a gamer nowadays.

How does this tie into your earlier decision to buy an 360 and the HD-DVD add-on? You obviously bought the 360 to game on and the HD-DVD add-on is just that: an add-on and not even remotely considered a stand alone player.

RE: Hypocritical?

By Anh Huynh on 8/13/2007 3:46:29 PM , Rating: 2

I bought the 360 add-on because it was cheap. Dedicated players were at least $500 at the time.

Yes, I have a Wii and 360, but they never saw much play. I use the 360 mostly as a means to stream video to the living room from my computer. The only play the 360 gets is with Guitar Hero II when friends are over, same goes for the Wii.

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By Scabies on 8/9/2007 4:45:42 PM , Rating: 2

Damn, and I thought I was going to be the cool kid on the block by buying the HD-DVD add-on this weekend. Forget that!

In other news, this article got my HD-Philia going enough to resubscribe to Netflix. No, not for HD-DVD, but yes for 300 (Blu-Ray, PS3). And for once, an article that is not overwhelmingly "This is cool 'cause that isn't / This is better 'cause that is worse" HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray! That stance, and your presentation, gets me to thinking HD-DVD might be worth buying into, whether or not it will succeed/last as the HD format of choice, and in spite of already owning Blu-Ray hardware.

Blu-Ray player + 5 movies for about $380

By dijuremo on 8/24/2007 11:30:01 AM , Rating: 2

If you go to the Sony store, you can buy a 60GB PS3 for $499.99 and if you apply for a Sony credit card from Chase, they will give you $150 back. So including the tax (which may vary depending on your state) and the shipping (currently free shipping as of 8/24/07), you can get a PS3 to watch blu-ray movies, upconvert DVD movies and play games for $380 shipped to your home. Then you fill up the 5 movies offer (they are not the greatest movies, but they are free) and you would end up with a Blu-ray player and 5 movies for $350. Almost as close as the HD-DVD deal you got, but with less movies.

It seems as the moment they 60GB PS3 is in back-order, but maybe if you place your order you will still get one.

"Game reviewers fought each other to write the most glowing coverage possible for the powerhouse Sony, MS systems. Reviewers flipped coins to see who would review the Nintendo Wii. The losers got stuck with the job." -- Andy Marken