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Honda plans to appeal and bring out its big gun legal team

Way back in 2007 an owner of a Honda Civic hybrid named John True was upset that he never came close to the EPA estimates for fuel economy while driving the vehicle after he averaged only 32 miles per gallon over the course of 6,000 miles. The EPA had rated the vehicle at 49 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway.
 
True filed a lawsuit against Honda alleging deceptive advertising and wanted to turn the suit into a class action, which eventually happened. That case won a settlement of only a few hundred dollars per owner, while the trial lawyers received $8.5 million.
 
More recently a woman from Southern California named Heather Peters filed a suit against Honda in small claims court rather than be part of a class action lawsuit. Peters is a non-practicing attorney and knew that by going through Small Claims Court, Honda would be barred from bringing out its “big gun” legal team.
 
The ploy worked out very well for Peters a she won a small claims judgment over Honda. Los Angeles Superior Court Commissioner Douglas Carnahan heard the case and Peters was awarded $9,867. Honda spokesman Chris Martin said that Honda plans to appeal.
 
Carnahan said, "At a bare minimum Honda was aware ... that by the time Peters bought her car there were problems with its living up to its advertised mileage."
 
Honda has maintained that the EPA mandated the figures for fuel economy and it had nothing to do with what’s reported on window stickers. Carnahan found in his 26-page ruling that Peters had correctly identified several misleading representations that Honda did knowingly use in marketing literature about the hybrid. 
 
Among those misleading statements were things such as claims the Civic hybrid would use "amazingly little fuel," ''provides plenty of horsepower while still sipping fuel," and that it would "save plenty of money on fuel with up to 50 mpg during city driving. Peters said that she is renewing her legal license after a 10-year lapse so that she can defend other Honda Civic hybrid owners experiencing similar problems.

Sources: AP, LA Times


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Small Claims Court
By Samus on 2/2/2012 1:20:31 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, thats quite an award for small claims...here in Cook County (Chicago) the maximum award in small claims court is $4500.




RE: Small Claims Court
By JasonMick (blog) on 2/2/12, Rating: -1
RE: Small Claims Court
By Samus on 2/2/2012 2:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
Well, I agree completely. But small claims court isn't for injury-related cases. It's for far minor things that shouldn't tie up the 'real' court system.

For example, recouping past due rent from tenants, suing for lost wages, someone defrauds you on a used <insert tangible good here> or bypassing a collection agency to recover money owed.

I'm a small business owner and a $2000 check bounced awhile back. They had no intention of paying it, and if I had gone through a collection agency, they would have taken half, IF they even recovered it. Going to small claims court, if the case is approved, subpoenas the defendant to show up. If they don't, a warrant for their arrest can be issued, far worse than any small claims court will punish you for (so almost everyone shows.)

Not for this.


RE: Small Claims Court
By ElFenix on 2/2/2012 3:59:24 PM , Rating: 5
small claims decisions aren't published and do not set precedent.


RE: Small Claims Court
By theapparition on 2/6/2012 9:41:57 AM , Rating: 2
Bingo.

I saw that gaff as well.


RE: Small Claims Court
By smackababy on 2/2/2012 4:04:43 PM , Rating: 4
The problem is the Civic hybrid base model is almost $10,000 more than the Civic base model. One is supposed to get significantly better gas mileage and does not. I feel the verdict is fair because had she purchased to base model, she'd have gotten similar gas mileage over the hybrid.


RE: Small Claims Court
By tastyratz on 2/3/2012 2:33:00 PM , Rating: 2
At first I thought it was ridiculous, although now that you put it that way I agree, it sounds fair. The EPA is what sets standard mileage and while I might not expect to hit the mark dead on, those figures are so drastically off that it makes me think instead bait and switch or test rigging of some kind.


RE: Small Claims Court
By n00bxqb on 2/3/2012 7:35:51 PM , Rating: 2
It's neither; the EPA just has horrendous testing methods.


RE: Small Claims Court
By Alexvrb on 2/4/2012 1:04:06 AM , Rating: 2
Actually they improved vastly starting in 2008. This is evidenced by the significant their current testing methodology giving this same vehicle a combined MPG rating 8 MPG lower than the old 2007 and earlier testing. The newer, slightly more real-world testing methods resulted in most vehicles shedding a couple of MPGs off their EPA ratings, but hybrids often lost more since their EPA ratings were so inflated under the old testing.

You'll run into similar problems trying to convert mileage figures from other countries. Their testing methods are different, and usually not quite as tough as current EPA testing. That doesn't even count conversion issues in the case of British figures...

Although, a clever manufacturer can still "cheat" a bit on EPA cycles even today. Use it as a guide, but not your sole guide, and as always YMMV.


RE: Small Claims Court
By n00bxqb on 2/4/2012 4:42:10 AM , Rating: 2
The owner of this vehicle filed a claim in 2007, so he bought it under the old, horrendous testing. I'm not sure why you're seemingly trying to correct me (started off using the term 'actually') when you seem to agree with me.

While it's true that the current EPA estimates are closer and the testing methods are better, they still aren't reflective of real world usage much of the time.


RE: Small Claims Court
By spootwo on 2/8/2012 11:23:27 AM , Rating: 2
Tell that to my 2009 civic hybrid because it's getting 32MPG on a good day.


RE: Small Claims Court
By idiot77 on 2/2/12, Rating: -1
RE: Small Claims Court
By cliftonite on 2/3/2012 8:54:49 AM , Rating: 1
What if you paid an extra $100 for an extended battery on your HTC EVO and only got the regular charge? You would be ok with that?


RE: Small Claims Court
By kleinma on 2/3/2012 10:02:45 AM , Rating: 2
Jason that is rediculous.

Honda didn't have judgment against them for building a junk product. It also has nothing at all to do with poor performance compared to competitors.

The damages were awarded because they clearly used false marketing material to sell their product, which had obviously innaccurate and deceptive figures on it, for the only reason of selling more cars and making their car look like it would perform better than they knew it could.

You can't advertise a product centering around figures that are not accurate. They should be sued for that kind of stuff until they change the figures or make the car perform as advertised. The small claims court was a good idea.. better than a bunch of greedy lawyers being the only ones to benefit.


RE: Small Claims Court
By Lifted on 2/3/2012 11:35:52 AM , Rating: 2
Jason, with this comment have gone full retard.

There is no coming back.


RE: Small Claims Court
By rangerdavid on 2/6/2012 2:13:13 PM , Rating: 1
Wow, did you miss the point by a mile - This isn't about a crappy product, it's about misleading advertisement claims. If a company says "50 miles per gallon in the city" and you purchase their vehicle, which only gets 30 MPG when you drive it, you were duped and can sue them. Companies are free to make crappy products, and for the market to punish them for it. But individuals have legal recourse when they have been conned, and this system ensures honest companies don't get unfairly penalized by dishonest competitors (i.e. another company wantonly boosts sales with fabricated product specs, to your company's loss). I see this as a very good thing.


RE: Small Claims Court
By Solandri on 2/2/2012 2:58:39 PM , Rating: 2
Small claims limit in California is $10k for individuals, $5k for business entities.


RE: Small Claims Court
By Samus on 2/2/2012 11:30:42 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, it's a STATE-WIDE policy? Christ in Illinois its by county. Some counties have a maximum award of $1000.

But I guess everything is bigger in Cali ;)


Wrong mileage figures
By Solandri on 2/2/2012 3:14:58 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Way back in 2007 an owner of a Honda Civic hybrid named John True was upset that he never came close to the EPA estimates for fuel economy while driving the vehicle after he averaged only 32 miles per gallon over the course of 6,000 miles. The EPA had rated the vehicle at 49 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway.

I'm pretty sure those EPA figures are for the Prius. The EPA estimates for the 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid are 40 city, 45 highway, 42 average.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/23533.shtm...

EPA stickers also state an expected mileage range for most drivers. From the few pictures of stickers I was able to find, this is about +/- 17%-18%.

Averaging 32 MPG is 20% lower than the 40 MPG city EPA rating. So it's just barely outside the range the EPA estimated for most drivers. There really isn't much of a case here, and I'm surprised he won.




RE: Wrong mileage figures
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 2/2/2012 3:32:23 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, you're wrong. The 49/51 figure was what was on the sticker when the car was purchased. The EPA released its lower, revised figures in 2008 for all vehicles.


RE: Wrong mileage figures
By drycrust3 on 2/3/2012 3:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The 49/51 figure was what was on the sticker when the car was purchased.

As I understand it (and I'm not American), the EPA is supposedly an independent body who test the fuel economy of a car according to certain standard tests in more or less ideal circumstances. Those tests don't do things like sitting at the traffic lights with the automatic gearbox in Drive and the airconditioning turned on, lots of stop-starts, cold starts, driving up hills with 4 people and a ton of luggage, etc, all of which guarantee the EPA figures won't be met.
According to another poster, the battery in the car had died, so the battery was just ballast and didn't contribute anything to the power train. Again, that guarantees the EPA figures won't be met.
So does that mean the EPA figures are a waste of time? No, what it means is that the EPA figures are "benchmark" figures and should be used to compare the economy of one car with another, they don't guarantee every user will get those figures.
Look at the name: "bench mark"! A test done in a laboratory to give a person an idea how competing products perform within a standardised test environment.
For example, if I look at one type of beer, it may have a figure of 4.5% alcohol by volume on it, and another beer may have 5% alcohol by volume on it. That doesn't mean the second beer tastes better than the first, or vice versa. Or if I look at the murder stats in one place and compare them to another place, that doesn't guarantee which one will be the better place to live, but it may help you decide where you'd rather not live.
Car benchmarks are intended as a guide, they are there to give a user a guide as which car is better for them. On top of that, if your car is defective, then the car can't be expected to perform the same the one on which the benchmark tests were conducted.


RE: Wrong mileage figures
By Keeir on 2/2/2012 3:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, Solandri, that site is tricking you.

First, the original pre-2008 EPA ratings for the Civic Hybrid were indeed 46/51 50

(Click original sticker)

Second, the Class-Action Suit never made it to Court. Honda offered a settlement outside of Court that the Class-Action decision makers favored. That was the whole reason for the small-claims filing... some people were unhappy with the settlement.


RE: Wrong mileage figures
By Solandri on 2/2/2012 4:57:14 PM , Rating: 3
Hmm, good point. So it's likely the other disclaimers I mentioned above weren't in the original EPA sticker either.

Still, it seems like the defendant of the suit should be the EPA, not Honda.


RE: Wrong mileage figures
By Keeir on 2/2/2012 7:56:34 PM , Rating: 2
No. The Monroney sticker always displaced +/- at least 15%.

I just wish someone who do the actual testing involved. Honda may be seriously at fault... but it would take a formal test of at least 1 car to actually show this...

Right now, it seems the decision is being made on personally provided data. Not really the best science. Hopefully the testing actually occurs in the case of a retrial.


Aweful
By Keeir on 2/2/2012 1:37:26 PM , Rating: 3
As much as I dislike Honda and Honda's IMA system, the way in which this verdict was written seems to have strong negative repercussions.

Requiring manufacturers to issue fuel guidelines independant of the EPA testing is not really a victory for anyone but Lawyers. Additional testing and liability will only increase auto costs and information will not be significantly improved because no two car companies will use the same test procedure...

Unless this person took thier car to an independant facility and verified that on the appropriate EPA testing that her car was returning significantly less than advertised...




RE: Aweful
By DoeBoy on 2/2/2012 2:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
To me this is all about marketing. Marketing is a way to entice a consumer to use your product. You better make sure what you say is true otherwise your basically committing fraud by making claims that a product could never live up to. All they gotta do is change a few words so that the expectations of the product aren't skewed into unbelievable territory. This is more about the MPG rating its about what Honda was saying about the car in their sales/marketing pitch. You can't just outright lie to people and then they buy a product that doesn't do what you say. I guess they need to quantify their marketing more so that misinterpretation doesn't happen.


RE: Aweful
By Keeir on 2/2/2012 2:53:43 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, well as I though about your comment, perhaps it would be better to label the sticker as 0-EPA Rating.... since if you turn on a car and let it idle it will indeed return 0 MPG. That should effectively prevent anyone from suing over EPA ratings.


RE: Aweful
By Solandri on 2/2/2012 3:08:42 PM , Rating: 2
The EPA ratings already include disclaimers. e.g.
quote:
35 MPG
Expected range for most drivers 29 to 41 MPG
Your actual mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle.


RE: Aweful
By DT_Reader on 2/2/2012 4:20:35 PM , Rating: 2
What the article fails to mention is that the real issue here wasn't so much the mileage the car got off the showroom floor, it's that the battery sucked - worse than in other hybrids (Prius) - and failed prematurely. This then essentially "bricked" your hybrid, turning it into a gas-only car with little if any regenerative braking, which naturally raised fuel consumption. THAT is why she sued. THAT is why Honda is guilty. THAT is why this shouldn't affect other manufacturers relying on EPA's figures (which, well-known since the 1970s, do not reflect real-world performance)


RE: Aweful
By Keeir on 2/2/2012 7:35:17 PM , Rating: 3
Interesting point of view.

If she had a failed battery, she should sue to get the battery replaced... which is required under California law up to 150,000 miles. If the plantiff in this case had made Honda's failure to adequately replace a failed battery system in her car the main thrust, I would agree completely.

Instead, if I understand correctly, she is upset her mileage is not as good as advertised, yet provides little to no proof outside personal experience. My opinion would be significantly different if

A. She proves that her car in its current condition (Jan 2012) is incapable of meeting a reasonable variance of pre-2008 EPA results when run under the EPA testing schedules.

B. She proves that her car has a prematurely failed battery that Honda is unwilling to replace.

These steps might be expensive, but a quick search is saying at least online no one has performed an actual -test- on the revised or older cars to determine where the fuel economy actually stands.

Sorry to all those that hate those big corporations out there, but Honda has been acting within the rules.. although I have always know IMA to be a shameful gaming of the US EPA testing scheme in comparison to how most Americans choose to drive.

(BTW, in case your curious, I always exceed EPA ratings. EPA testing is ment as a way to compare one car to another within a set pattern. Not as an estimate on the actual mileage an individual will get. Hybrids such as the IMA gamed the system. Today's EPA standards are being gamed by locking transmissions and preprogrammed shift points that are nearly impossible to duplicate in the real world. No need to look any further than BMW 335i, the 2012 version despite being larger, heavier, with higher HP and Torque is returning 20% greater fuel economy on the EPA testing cycle than the 2011 version. If this Honda ruling stands as a precendent, I see alot of manufacturers getting sued over 2011 and 2012 edition cars, because there will be no way the American public will get anywhere near their EPA numbers. Heck I believe from personal testing that using Cruise Control on Hyundais will typically change the shifting pattern enough to make EPA numbers impossible to obtain)


New computer function coming
By YashBudini on 2/2/2012 5:00:50 PM , Rating: 1
If more claims like these are coming at some point expect your auto computer to start tracking engine vacuum levels. Right now anybody can be a lead foot and claim they got bad mileage, the same way those idiots ate McD's crap and discovered they got fat.

An auto black box can't be far in our future. Count on it.

And no, that's not a good thing. Your car is going to become the biggest snitch the average person will ever encounter.

Sure that woman may have had a valid claim and adequate proof, but the reward should be the difference between what she spent for gas minus what she expected to spend for gas. $10K for gas? That takes a while.




RE: New computer function coming
By lennylim on 2/2/2012 6:14:51 PM , Rating: 3
"Your car is going to become the biggest snitch the average person will ever encounter."

Nope. That'll be your cellphone.


RE: New computer function coming
By Diablobo on 2/2/2012 9:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
Uh..I hate to break it to you but they're already here. Yup, since the mid 90's on most cars and trucks. They can and will use your car to rat you out. Best bet is to not drive like an idiot. Go figure.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/newsletter/s...


Important omitted information
By d33pblue on 2/3/2012 8:32:22 AM , Rating: 2
At least in the case of the woman, the primary issue here is that her gas mileage dropped after a modification to the car's software was performed.

Some time after release of the car, Honda discovered a fault with the battery that would result in greatly reduced battery longevity. They issued a software update to correct this, but unfortunately this reduced the overall MPG of the car.

The EPA does NOT require recertification of fuel efficiency after a change like this. So while the original rating was likely accurate, it wasn't as accurate after the change. IMO, at least some fault lies with the EPA here.

FWIW, the overall mileage of the 2007 Civic Hybrid on Fuelly is right at 40MPG - which is pretty darned good.




Lawyers.....
By Raiders12 on 2/3/2012 9:19:46 AM , Rating: 2
Anyone notice the award was a couple hundred $$$ to the plaintiffs and $8.5 million to the lawyers? Classic!




Honda loses its edge
By flyguy29 on 2/5/2012 12:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
Honda started out as a motocycle manufacturer who had the ingenuity to use clever engineering tricks to build compact cars with motorcycle heritage. Comoact, sporty, and fuel sabing were the trademarks of Honda until they stepping into higher performance smaller engines that left fuel economy behind. The Acura lineup has middling fuel economy with smaller engine sthan its competitors, yet really didn't accomplish much. The AWSH technology is clever tuning of a a 4 cylinder engine, but so what if it had less torque and hp than a 6 cylinder v block with better fuel economy?.
Toyota and Ford have surpassed Honda on fuel economy and honda continues on with dated small engine technology that no longer ha sany performance or fuel economy advantages.




Good 4 Her
By thatmikeguy on 2/6/2012 4:48:07 PM , Rating: 2
Every commercial has words like that, so it's the same in the end. That's just the big guys trying to save face, and it not working. Every owner should go do the same in small claims court. I often thought of doing this for other greatly exaggerated products. They need to change the class actions laws and payments methods completely, they are a joke.




How can I do this in Canada?
By spootwo on 2/8/2012 11:22:06 AM , Rating: 2
My car is a 2009 honda civic hybrid. I am getting 32MPG (or 7.1 l/100) after 5000km of driving. I have video footage showing that during short trips the mileage improves averaging around 25MPG (or ~9 l/100)
In addition we've had both batteries replaced due to manufacturer defects, and the back wind shield exploded (also under warranty).
This woman is doing what we should all do when big corporations try to hide behind layers.




The U.S. judicial system ???
By Beenthere on 2/2/2012 4:48:21 PM , Rating: 1
If Honda was quoting the EPA documented mpg figures then I find the courts ruling unacceptable and hope an appeals court overturns it. If Honda used false mpg data then they deserve to be prosecuted for fraud. It's unclear to me what the truth is in this case.




"The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." -- Robert Heinlein











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