backtop

Print 31 comment(s) - last by Corky Boyd.. on Dec 27 at 12:45 AM

Fiat 500

The Lancia Delta will form the basis for a new Chrysler vehicle in the U.S.
Fiat 500 to get electric variant

Following its bankruptcy filing earlier this year, Chrysler has been doing its best to fight off naysayers who say that the company should simply die. Recently, Arizona Senator John McCain went so far as to say, "anybody [who] believes that Chrysler is going to survive, I'd like to meet them."

Chrysler, however, is doing its best to fight off the naysayers and hopes to win the hearts of more than a few people with some new models at the Detroit Auto Show next month. Thanks to its new partnership with Fiat, Chrysler now has access to a broad portfolio of European car platforms and powertrains -- both gasoline and diesel.

One such model to be displayed at the show will be an electric version of the Fiat 500. Not much is known about the upcoming electric vehicle, but it's more than likely that it will feature a lithium-ion battery pack which is becoming more popular with next generation full-electric and gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles.

The similarly-sized MINI E uses a 5,088-cell lithium-ion battery pack to achieve a range of 150 miles.

According to the Detroit News, the beleaguered Auburn Hills automaker will also show a U.S.-bound, Chrysler-branded vehicle based on the Lancia Delta (Lancia is one of Fiat's European brands). The Lancia Delta is a vehicle that is roughly the size of a Chrysler PT Cruiser or a Dodge Caliber.

It has already been stated that the conventional, gasoline-powered Fiat 500 will arrive in the U.S. within the next year. The Fiat 500 will be doing battle with other tiny subcompacts like Ford's new Fiesta and aforementioned MINI.


Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled
Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By aguilpa1 on 12/23/2009 9:23:23 AM , Rating: 1
Looking at these two examples, nothing has changed. That Fiat, is it a licensed Fiat or do they own Fiat? Either way its ugly and looks like they are pricing it upscale closer to the Mini Cooper which is twice as bad. I infer this by looking at this mock ad, a young but older uptown woman (high maintenance, high dollar). Had they done an ad with younger people, college age than that is a lower price market. This tells you their target audience.




RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By Lonyo on 12/23/2009 9:43:45 AM , Rating: 3
Fiat owns 20%? of Chrysler, with the possibility to buy more.
Fiat owns, or will own, Chrysler.


By Pjotr on 12/23/2009 7:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
When the government has stepped down (already done?) to the target 10% ownership of Chrysler, the UAW union will own 55% and Fiat 35% of Chrysler. Fiat promised to produce at least one small car in US factories and also to let Chrysler use the 3.0l diesel and 1.4l gasoline engine. The goal is a merger eventually.


By KillaKilla on 12/23/2009 9:56:06 AM , Rating: 2
Looking at the current projected MSRP on Edmunds (~$16,000) it is way out of it's market. The significantly larger Fiesta starts about $3000 less, and even in hatchback form is still a thousand dollars under it. At that point it's competing with the Focus/Mazda3, and I simply can't see Americans picking the FIAT over the other options in that segment.


By log on 12/23/2009 7:32:07 PM , Rating: 3
The Fiat 500 is not in the market the same way the Fiesta is.

When you buy a Fiat 500 you're buying a sense of nostalgia, an iconic revivalism, or any other marketing cliché.

Just like the mini and the VW beetle.

I don't see the Fiesat, Mazda or Focus having any of that history, hence the price hike.


RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By blowfish on 12/23/2009 10:32:08 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I think Chryler have come up with some of the ugliest looking cars in recent times. The Fiat 500 looks a lot better "in the flesh" than in pics.

Cars like the Mini and the Fiat 500 appeal to something other than the bottom end market covered by utilitarian designs like the old GM Metro or the Chevy Aveo. Certainly in Europe, there is a demand for well made, cute looking small cars that aren't built with the cheapest and lowest quality components available. I believe there is a similar market segment here in the US, where the Mini seems to be selling well. Add to that the Mini and the Fiat 500 are fun to drive. I suspect there will be a lot of female buyers, just as there are for the VW Beetle.


By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/23/2009 10:33:28 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I had the chance to fondle and sit in a Fiat 500 at CES 2008. It was quite a nice looking machine and the fit/finish was respectable for a sub-$20,000 vehicle.

I still wouldn't buy one though, because it's too small.

http://i49.tinypic.com/dr0ns.jpg


RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By BZDTemp on 12/23/2009 6:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
The Fiat 500 may not be your thing but in Europe the are selling like freshly made bread. They offer all sorts of styling options so you can have just the way you like it. There is even a sporty Abarth version and a Ferrari tribute version is coming alos (in very limited numbers and with more than 200 BHP which should mean 0-60 in 6.something seconds)!

Fiat is very good at small cars and often there is a lot more space inside than what you would think. Plus they are good fun to drive. I know they may be know as "Fix It Again Tony" but that is very far from what FIAT is today.

FIAT may not be as big as the VW-group or Toyota but they are big and their brands include: Ferrari, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Maserati and now Chrysler. Plus they are more than just cars it is also trucks (both in the US sense and as in big 18-wheelers), military hardware and two-wheel machines (Vespa, Moto Guzzi, Aprillia...).


By Spuke on 12/23/2009 6:50:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Fiat 500 may not be your thing but in Europe the are selling like freshly made bread.
They'll sell well here too. The Mini does well and this will come in at a lower price point. People do like style here and the 500 is very nice looking. Maybe my wife might like one. Hopefully, the Abarth version comes over here too and I hope to God it's not too heavy for its size.


RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By Keeir on 12/23/2009 7:16:25 PM , Rating: 2
Some information for the Euro readers out there

#1. Minis don't sell in the United States. Between all 9? of thier models they typically sell around 40,000 in the United States. The F-150 alone sells 400,000 a year in a -bad bad- year. Mini and BMW consider this acceptable (or even successful), yet lets not decieve ourselves in thinking its a huge market in the US.

#2. VWs don't sell in the US (I know it sells well in Europe). The Entire VW line-up sells around 250,000 a year in the US. Toyota for contrast sells 2,000,000+ a year in the US. Sales of "Small" Hatchback Cars are even worse. In 2007, a big sales year, they only sold around 40,000 of the entire Golf line. Remove the high performance ones and your down to ~25,000.

Why? Well fuel price has to do alot with it. In Europe, the high taxation essentially "prices out" people from the larger cars. The difference in the US between going from a 25 MPG "prefered" car that is larger in every single dimension to a 30 MPG car like this Fiat 500 is only 2,000 dollars or so in Fuel or as I like to think of it around 1 dollar a day in Fuel. In Europe, this difference can be more like 2 or 3 dollars a day.

Conclusion, the Fiat 500 has an uphill battle to climb in the US market. Realistically speaking the "B" market in the US has not been significantly larger than 300,000 units a year in the 2000-2010 timeframe. Even if it ballons to 500,000 a year, the Fiat 500 will need to compete against the Fit, the Mini, the Fiesta/Mazda2, the Yaris, the Aveo, the Accent not to mention need to outperform the Class C cars that in the US come at a TCO premium of only ~2,000-3,000, which include the VW Golf, the Mazda3, the Honda Insight, the Toyota Prius, etc.

Unless something drastic changes, I predict it will be difficult to move more than 50,000 units of ALL Fiat 500s models brought to the US, even at pricing below 20,000.


RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By BZDTemp on 12/23/2009 9:02:42 PM , Rating: 2
Good info. Let me offer a bit of info in return.

#1 The Mini is not a cheap car in Europe. It's a fancy life style car capitalizing on the love and nostalgia around the original Mini. The original was innovative, small, cheap and a lot of fun. The current is a lot bigger only impractical for it's size.

#2 When you say "The entire VW line-up" are you then including the whole family or only VW's? Not that it matters that much. In Europe the VW brand are not cheap cars but some of their other brands are sort of cheap. Oh, and the "New Bettle" is like the Mini.

#3 the Fiat 500 is much as the original the the Bettle and the Mini. Much bigger than it was of course but it has managed to be clever and relatively cheap as opposed to the other two which are style over substance.

I'm not so sure about our high taxes making people buy smaller cars because it seems to me it is more a matter of taste. Or rather taste + what fits the roads we have. In much of Europe population is much more dense than it is in the US. We have much less urban sprawl and the long commutes somewhat common in the US are rare. As a result European cars tend to be smaller but just as fast and certainly faster around corners.

Here in Denmark where I live it is a bit special because we have no car industry and cars are taxed heavily. It almost so that you buy one car but pay for three unless it is the very cheapest which you then "only" pay double for two. The cheapest car we can buy is almost $20,000. A Fiat 500 starts at $28.000 or so and the Mini is $50,000 so not many goes for that. But people here still buy a lot of cars and it's is the whole range from the ultra cheap to the very expensive. An average car is perhaps small compared to an average US one but not when you look at the price tag and comparing a F150 to a European car is like comparing a plastic bucket to a Chanel bag.


RE: Rather unattactive autos is their main problem.
By Keeir on 12/23/2009 10:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
No offense, but although USers are considered arrogant and ignorant, it constantly surprizes me on the Auto Articles how many Europeans are experts on the American Car industry and what Americans (USers plus Canadians) need.

#1. US Auto sales are around 7-8 million a year. The largest catagories are "Pick-up Truck" and D- Class Sedans. The Fiat 500 fits into the smallest car size typically sold in the US. About 1/20 or less auto sales are "B-class".

#2. The so called "best-in-class" Honda Fit/Jazz in the US currently sells around 50-60,000 a year. It comes from a reputible company that USer like. It sells -cheap- and advertized like crazy.

#3. USers hate Hatchbacks because when we were little our parents forced us to take long road trips in poorly made and overcrowded station wagons

#4. There are nearly as many cars as citizens. 255 million cars to 304 citizens and -more- cars than drivers. I doubt this is mirrored in Denmark.

#5. Population Density is significant different. US population density 32 people per Square Kilometer. Denmark is around 130 people per Square Kilometer.

Lastly the comment about a "plastic bucket" is what really needs a change in understanding. Its true, the base truck is basically a workman like plastic bucket. But go up to the 25-30,000 dollar trucks and you get a fairly comfortable experience and significantly more abilities. The sad truth is the Fiat 500 when it appears in the US will be 15-25. Even it somehow comes in with tremedous value its fighting established compeditors with better brand names in a very small market which is unlikey to grow to a signicant size (Even if the B segement Doubles, Ford trucks alone will outsell it)

Ask yourself this question. If the total price difference over 5-10 years of car ownership was ~3,000 Euro would you buy a Fiat 500 over a VW Golf? I think the answer would be no. This is why the B segment is so small in the US


By Anonymous88 on 12/24/2009 6:34:07 AM , Rating: 2
To add to your point about the population density and the number of cars per people, this has led to another significant difference between the US/CDN auto industry and the Europeans-the fact that driving is looked at so very differently- in Europe driving is more of a luxury then a necessity-not saying there arent those who don't NEED to drive there, just that the balance is skewed toward luxury-as a non-driver over there, you have more options, and the population density makes mass transit more feasible. Here stateside/provinceside driving is at times a downright chore...this is why american cars have cupholders and the like, because americans don't look at driving as a priveledge, but rather as a necessity. In most of the US, without a car, then good luck getting a job, groceries, or hell even a date! go to many major american cities/towns and you'll see this in action. Another major difference is geography and the intense variations of it, I'm willing to guess as well that the average american car probably has more mileage racked on it then the average European car, and I'm also willing to bet that that same american car probably lives a bit harsher of a life on average as well due to the varied conditions that the typical american can expect. Point being, the markets are so vastly different that you can't apply what works in one toward the other. Toyota is a great example-hell, they seem to be better at figuring the american consumer out then then the domestics, who are just now really at the point where they are starting to get on level ground.

Another difference is that Americans seem to put a higher value on being able to do alot of things in one vehicle-probably a bit of a stereotypical american mentality of wanting it all, but in fairness, as an american pickup truck owner, i do get approached every month or so on someone needing to borrow my truck-the "need" for a bigger vehicle is somewhat justified-not often for the average american mind you, but again, the the average mindset is also why compromise? Why buy that little smart car when in a month or so when I do some remoddeling i might have to head to a lumber yard and re-drywall a room in the house.....wow that explorer/trailblazer/durango/highlander is looking much better now.....

As for Americans hating hatchbacks, I'd beg to differ on that one, americans seem to quite like a decent/nice hatchback.....even here in detroit you can see a ton of golfs running around, and the honda civic hatch used to be one of the most popular youth cars and is still hunted down for its reliablity. As someone in his mid 20s, hatchs are coming back as a more "hip" car probably due in part to the old stationwagon being replaced by the soccer-mom minivan experience. Hell the first car i drove was my parents 93 voyager and I sure as hell wouldnt want to drive one again-so hatchbacks definitely have a bit of a market here that is growing-agreed though that its doubtful it'll ever be anywhere near the market for a full size truck... To an exent though, until something drastic happens, family cars especially are like clothing-they go in and out of style and as kids start rebelling, they want someting different...hence the transition from stationwagon-minivan-SUV

As for the little fiat itself, it doenst look like a bad car in person-I've been seeing em running around here for almost a year now off and on, but like the smart car, it probably is a bit too small for your typical american consumer. I had a 4 door festiva pass me earlier this week (then I sped up and gave the ford-employee driver(car had a manufacturers plate) a thumbs up) and comparitively, i'd go for the festiva instead-even the 4 door doenst look that bad-defintely not worse then a yaris, and it was around the same size as my early 90s saturn I was chugging along in, though with my saturn getting 38 ish mpg on the highway while having a bevy of problems and nearing 200k miles on the ticker, either vehicle would have to get over 40mpg to get me to switch....


By BZDTemp on 12/25/2009 3:06:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No offense, but although USers are considered arrogant and ignorant, it constantly surprizes me on the Auto Articles how many Europeans are experts on the American Car industry and what Americans (USers plus Canadians) need.


Eh. I have a hard time to see where I have claimed to be an expert on the needs of the US. In fact I list a bunch of reasons to why European cars are different trying to explain why cars sold in Europe are smaller.

But since you feel need to teach on how the US car market is while somehow taking offense in how I did the same on how it is in Europe. Then I guess commenting directly on your points is perhaps better.

You say how surprised you are on how Europeans are "experts on the American Car industry and..." but I think you need to consider almost anyone in Europe knows a good deal about the US. Everyone here watches US movies and sitcoms on a regular basis and if you're into cars the local 7-11 carries magazines like Car&Driver. Our local newspapers and the news on TV refers domestic US news and we even get The Daily Show. Also the US is a place a lot of Europeans have visited. I have Danish friends which have worked in the US and one of my friends just did a three months US road trip. I live 5 miles from the biggest none-US Microsoft branch and a big IBM location is even closer. I'm drinking a Coke and the closest fast food place has a pair of golden arches as it's logo. The US is a big thing here and while we poke fun at you guys every chance we get there is also a good deal of admiration.

#1. I know of the US car sales and the popularity of the Trucks. However times are changing and gas prices is hardly to anything but go up which does not spell well for the Truck market. In other words the market for small cars will grow - can we agree in that?

#2. I think seeing the US as one big market is a bit of a stretch. It is the same thing in Europe where some regions are almost "frontier" like and others have even their freeways illuminated. I would think the NE and SW of the US is perhaps more European than the less closely populated areas?

#3. LOL - that is a nice theory. Would that not mean the the kids of the SUV generation hate sofas on wheels and prefers small and "sporty"?

#4. Of course it is not the same here. As mentioned Denmark is special due to our high car taxes which make buying and owning a car much more expensive. We have a little over one motor vehicle per person with the EU average being close to 0.7 per person however the EU also includes some very poor regions like a few former soviet states. Did you read what I explained on how Europe is different.

#5. Thank you for putting numbers to my statement on population density :-)

No question a Truck can be equipped into a rather comfy/fun place to be. A friend of a friend here has imported one with what I think is the engine from a Viper and while I dig it I'm sure they dig it even more at his local gas station.

For sure the Fiat 500 is not gonna take over the #1 on the sales list in the US but I think you are wrong if you regard it as a none-selling item.


By AEvangel on 12/23/2009 10:57:08 AM , Rating: 1
Also keep in mind when electric cars become more common place you will be putting millions out of work. There will be no more need to mechanics since most electric cars will just run till they break, their is no maintenance needed.

So unless we bring back some for of manufacturing to this country we can be looking much larger problem then we have now with 20+ percent unemployment.


By corduroygt on 12/23/2009 11:02:10 AM , Rating: 2
Yes because we all know powertrain is the only thing that goes wrong with cars, not to mention electric motors can burn out and batteries can die, just ask laptop owners. We need people to replace/repair them.

Nobody has problems with their car's alignment, steering, brakes, headlamps, wipers, sunroof, door locks, and other interior bits, right?


By Oregonian2 on 12/23/2009 12:38:29 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmmmm..... I gather that this thread is suggesting that perhaps the reliability problem that Detroit cars had in the past was actually a good thing -- providing employment for those who fix them. Perhaps it was done on purpose?


By MrFord on 12/23/2009 1:10:20 PM , Rating: 4
And in that case, the fact that Fiat is now behind Chrysler will do wonder for the unemployment problem!


By mdogs444 on 12/23/2009 10:58:31 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
the better solution is more efficient mass transit systems.

Mass transit systems are okay for large cities with high population densities like New York, Chicago, and LA. However, the U.S will never prosper transferring to a largely public transportation system.

Just take a look at AMTRAK. They lose $32 for every single rider. If you want to invest in something like that, then go lose your own money....but I'll continue to drive my SUV and be happy with it.
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/mound-city-money/...


By Omega215D on 12/24/2009 1:55:37 AM , Rating: 2
Even in NYC the mass transit is quite inefficient. Too many delays, poor dispatchers who can't make a decision in a timely fashion, endless construction projects on the same set of tracks for several years, idiots who keep holding the doors open delaying trains behind ours...

A 20 minute trip by car takes 1 hour by transit


To little ... to late
By drycrust3 on 12/23/2009 12:02:41 PM , Rating: 2
As a person who loves innovation, I just find it so frustrating that only when there is the threat of loosing their jobs do people like the engineers of this company bother to try to improve what they do. Innovation and improvement is everyones responsibility!
Suddenly, when everyone is about to loose their jobs and homes, they need to have this "new" technology, although it is actually older than the petrol engine. Well, I hate to say it, but just the fact they needed to wait until the whole company was about to go down the drain pipe before they decided to try something new or improved is a sure sign they don't want to innovate.
I mean, what is so difficult about quality control? Do they know who Edward Deming was? Well, my guess is it is too late. They thought Deming was stupid, now people buy TVs, iPods, computers, ... and cars, all made using his quality control advice.
By the way, 5088 cells? How many volts is this thing going to use? At 3.6 v per cell that would be 15000 volts, so obviously most are going to be paralleled up. What is the mean time between failures for a lithium ion cell? What is the failure rate? What happens if one of them goes short circuit? BANG! FIRE! Why not just use a larger cell? I think this is bad design, but then what would I know. Oh, why bother. Dreams are sweet.




RE: To little ... to late
By Oregonian2 on 12/23/2009 12:43:43 PM , Rating: 2
I doubt the lack of risk taking in designs is because of the engineers. I'll just leave it at that.

Thanks for sharing your expertise in Lithium battery design. Out of curiosity, where do you work?


RE: To little ... to late
By drycrust3 on 12/24/2009 3:51:32 AM , Rating: 2
I know this will amaze you, but I am a bus driver. Yeah, that happens when you get old. I used to work for a phone company, my job being mostly to fix things but I did some work in a place where I was one of a team of people who investigated interworking problems between different systems and approved release of services to customers. In that job it was essential to think of the broader issues relating to a service as well as the fine detail.
That is why I asked about things like reliability of the individual cells, because that is one of the more broad issues that will occur.
As the person below says, it is either easier to control the temperature of many small cells than one large cell, or the cost of 5088 cells is much cheaper than the equivalent large cell battery. When I was in China I saw many electric cycles, and they had what appeared to be one large battery, which I thought was a small number of large cells (similar to a car battery), rather than a large number of small cells in parallel.
The information about the cell voltage was obtained from Wikipedia.

In regards to the risk or lack of risk in design, I agree with you, that it may well be the people above the engineers are the ones who don't want innovation, but it was the responsibility of the senior management to know they weren't selling enough cars to pay their bills and it was their responsibility to make their cars better long before it got to the state they are now in.


RE: To little ... to late
By Xenoterranos on 12/23/2009 2:05:45 PM , Rating: 2
I think they use smaller cells because they're manufactured en mass, and thus cheap; but also probably because it's easier to adjust for the thermal needs of LiOn batteries when they're thinner/smaller (less of a "core" to heat up, and easier to disipate any waste heat. If you have a solid LiOn battery that was a 1 foot cube (not made of cells), it would probably be hard to keep at a proper temperature for operation and charging.


Dodge Cobalt
By Pessimism on 12/23/2009 9:26:10 AM , Rating: 2
=Chevrolet Cobalt




RE: Dodge Cobalt
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/23/2009 9:29:38 AM , Rating: 2
Brain fart -- should have been Dodge Caliber ;)


I don't like fiat
By Murloc on 12/24/2009 5:52:04 AM , Rating: 2
I like VW more.
I've been in both FIATs and VWs, the VWs are more comfortable and have a better look.




Fiat 500
By Corky Boyd on 12/27/2009 12:45:46 AM , Rating: 2
Europe's crash standards are more lenient than the US ones. Unless a car is designed from scratch to conform to US standards, it is quite expensive to redesign it. Now when the owner of an at risk company is also the regulator, would the government cut some slack to Fiat.

Interesting to see how the Fiat stacks up on independent crash tests.




"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes











botimage
Copyright 2012 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki