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Official argues Microsoft's prices are too high for the Chinese market

According to Reuters, a top Chinese copyright official criticized Microsoft for implementing an anti-piracy tool that nags users of counterfeit software with a black computer screen. The same official also criticized Microsoft’s prices as too high for the Chinese market.

The validation software called Windows Genuine Advantage launched in China last week, and the program displays a black desktop on counterfeit versions of the Windows XP operating system with a permanent nag notice in the bottom-right corner of the screen. Users can change the background, but it reverts to black after an hour.

Microsoft’s attempt to discourage piracy was met with outrage in China where a large majority of computer users are believed to be using pirated versions of its software. Threats of lawsuits against Microsoft turned in to a reality as the outrage grew.

Dong Zhengwei, a Beijing lawyer, said Microsoft was abusing its market power and had filed a complaint to China's trade watchdog, the State Administration for Industry and Commerce, the China Daily said in a report.

In a PC World article Dong said, "Microsoft's measure will cause serious functional damage to users' computers and, according to China's criminal law, the company can stand accused of breaching and hacking into computer systems of Chinese." Dong also said Microsoft was targeting the wrong group stating, "I respect the right of Microsoft to protect its intellectual property, but it is taking on the wrong target with wrong measures." He also added, "They should target producers and sellers of fake software, not users."

Chinese users expressed their displeasure by posting their thoughts to the Sina.com portal. User Liu Peng wrote, "First of all, Microsoft anti-piracy has the wrong focus. The fight against piracy should focus on the pirates."

An online survey conducted by Sina.com showed 86% of 90,000 people polled saying that they wouldn't buy a legal copy because of the new anti-piracy software. It was unclear what percentage would have bought a legal copy had the anti-piracy measures not been implemented.

National Copyright Administration (NCA) Vice-Director Yan Xiaohong said his agency supported "the rights-safeguarding move taken by institutions including Microsoft," according to the Xinhua news agency. Yan objected to the method Microsoft chose to use stating companies should "pay attention to the methods. Whether the 'black-out' method should be adopted is open to question. Measures for safeguarding rights also need to be appropriate," Yan also said Microsoft's price policies needed to "fit the Chinese situation." stating, "The company adopted unified prices in the past without considering the income gap between developed and developing countries, so we need to kindly remind them that Chinese customers' affordability should be considered."

Microsoft defended the program as a measure to protect its intellectual property and help customers determine that they have legal software. A Microsoft spokeswoman said the Chinese reaction is overblown. "It seems like they don't know how Windows Genuine Advantage is deployed. It's only installed after you've accepted the download," she said. These statements refute comments made by some Chinese users that they were surprised by the change. Microsoft had also warned users last week that the change was coming, "It's possible they clicked without noticing” she added.

She also mentioned that the recent validation update is not the first time that Microsoft's software has come with anti-piracy protection in China. "Odds are, this was probably not the first time you've seen a Windows Genuine Advantage notification if you're seeing it now," she continued, referring to the older Notifications software that displayed only a log-on message and a small less intrusive pop up in the bottom right corner.

Although this issue has generated significant outrage within the Chinese community, methods for getting around the validation program were circulated on Chinese blogs and internet chat-rooms within days of its launch.



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Nice
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/28/2008 11:50:58 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Official argues Microsoft's prices are too high for the Chinese market


(Disclaimer: I usually am opposed to punitive piracy punishment...)

Wow, that's quite an interesting stance for a government official to take.

Imagine if you could apply that logic to everything here in the States...

*Walks into a Aston Martin store* "These prices are too high for this market! I will have to steal one of your vehicles..."

*Walks into a Banana Republic store* "$200 for a sweater? $300 for a jacket? Outrageous! These prices are WAY too high for the market. Looks like I'm just going to have to steal all of these..."

*Walks into Best Buy* "$6000 for that massive plasma TV?? That is just ridiculously high for this market. You know what that means. Yep, that's right..." *takes the plasma tv and walks out*

And if they protest:
"Hey. It's not my fault. Maybe you should have thought about lowering your prices, huh?"




RE: Nice
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 11:56:26 AM , Rating: 5
While I do agree with your statement most (if not all) global companies offer differnt prices for differnt markets around the world on the same goods.

But my gut tells me that China wants all it's software for the price of: Free.


RE: Nice
By Targon on 10/28/2008 12:16:06 PM , Rating: 4
And of course, having the desktop go black doesn't mean the machine can't be used, it just means the person using the pirated version needs to DO something. Those who steal something don't have ANY rights to complain about what they have stolen.

Then again, if someone breaks into a public building and then gets hurt due to something like an "exit" sign not being there, that person has effectively given up their rights to sue IMO because they have violated the law.

There really needs to be a new global law that says that if you are violating the law, you lose the right to sue if YOU get hurt. Even something like defective rope should be subject to this, where if you are using a length of rope to commit a crime, you lose the right to sue the manufacturer if it malfunctions while you are using it to break the law.


RE: Nice
By othercents on 10/28/2008 12:30:19 PM , Rating: 2
However the person using the software purchased it legally per the Chinese Government. I guess selling stolen property in China is legal, or pirated software isn't consider stolen. The Chinese Government wants Microsoft to go after the piraters not the end users "victims".

Other


RE: Nice
By nosfe on 10/28/2008 12:39:36 PM , Rating: 2
well, using/getting pirated software is legal in my country but only for personal use; people tend to forget that piracy is about legal/illegal and laws are different from country to country, whats illegal in your country doesn't make it illegal in mine, oh and no, i'm not chinese and don't live in China


RE: Nice
By Grast on 10/28/2008 1:32:33 PM , Rating: 5
Based on your stance, I expect to NOT hear you complain when your screen goes black. If you know you are using a pirated piece of software and continue to use it, you DESERVE to have some blacklash.

China is using an AMERICAN product. They could always use Linux. I am sure the linux community would love an additional billion users of the software.

later...


RE: Nice
By Tsuwamono on 10/28/2008 1:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
I have pirated windows. I dont think i have ever paid for Windows since Windows 95. All that is required is that you dont use WGA. comb the updates and make sure microsoft doesnt install any of their spyware crap on your computer. Meh.

I prefer Linux anyway, i only use Windows for when i feel like playing a game.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:37:10 PM , Rating: 2
Spyware/Malware is illegal in almost every form, if you really think MS packages either of these you are a moron. Sometimes I wonder if people take a second to realize that 80%+ of Microsoft's business resides in the business sector, it would be a legal nightmare for them to start including spy/malware in windows updates.


RE: Nice
By inighthawki on 10/28/2008 4:34:18 PM , Rating: 3
People often tend to refer to MS's genuine advantage stuff as spyware. We are all aware its not REALLY spyware, but its just coined as such because of the way it behaves. Don't take things so literally.


RE: Nice
By paydirt on 10/29/2008 10:38:44 AM , Rating: 3
The Chinese gov't has refused to crackdown on copyright violators. The Chinese Gov't wants their country to get others countries' technology, software, movies, and games for free.

Buyer beware. If you buy a copy of Windows for $2, it probably isn't legit. Kinda like Rolex's on street corners. Just silly.


RE: Nice
By murphyslabrat on 10/28/2008 2:48:18 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I prefer Linux anyway, i only use Windows for when i feel like playing a game.

Which of course, makes it ok to pirate a copy...as long as you don't use it very much.

WTF?


RE: Nice
By Samus on 10/28/2008 9:04:09 PM , Rating: 4
i wouldn't publicly post your intentionally pirated spooge too loudly 99.141.18.216

it's probably a safe bet if you have a pirated os, those games your playing are also pirated. and perhaps your dvd burning program for all those netflix you make illegal copies of. and who knows, maybe the hard disk you download all those torrent albums too is stolen. pirated. stolen. it all gets blurry sometimes i suppose. but we all know you didn't MEAN to pocket that WD passport at circuit city back in June, your just a desperate college student that couldn't find a job over the summer because you have no skillz.


RE: Nice
By Maskarat on 10/29/2008 8:01:23 AM , Rating: 1
yaaaaaawn... are you done with the self gratifying rhetoric?

I'm glad you find it reasonable to spend 95% of your salary on this crap. I'm glad you're happy. I don't :) And I'm still happy!


RE: Nice
By nosfe on 10/28/2008 6:44:36 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Based on your stance, I expect to NOT hear you complain when your screen goes black. If you know you are using a pirated piece of software and continue to use it, you DESERVE to have some blacklash.


because my comment was full of complaints against the dirty tactics of microsoft, full of them

quote:
China is using an AMERICAN product. They could always use Linux. I am sure the linux community would love an additional billion users of the software.


american components, russian components, all made in taiwan!

so you're saying that the product must be used according to the laws from the country it originated in? it doesn't work that way the last time i checked, do french cars have to pass american safety standards or french safety standards so that they can be sold in the US?


RE: Nice
By tedrodai on 10/29/2008 10:59:15 AM , Rating: 2
Your original point was indeed valid, and that's something a company should take into consideration when selling in markets foreign to their own. And, based on pure conjecture, I lean towards believing the Chinese official's statement that Microsoft's pricing there is too high (but I still think his motives are BS). It's really not important, however.

Just because it may be legal in your own country to pirate software, doesn't mean a software developer has to provide a product that can be easily pirated. Regardless, it seems to me like they simply turned their operating systems into shareware. In return for a great free operating system, are you really complaining about this lack of functionality:

"OMG @*%^@ I can't set my own desktop background!!@!$!"

Please...


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 11:16:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
do french cars have to pass american safety standards or french safety standards so that they can be sold in the US?


They are usually built to pass both, then whatever allowed them to pass American safety standards is swapped out lower cost items, as Euro safety standards aren't as harsh.


RE: Nice
By Etsp on 10/31/2008 6:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
But that's only because it's cheaper to make x number of one car, instead of y+z number of two different cars (x=y+z) This is motivated by price, not law.


RE: Nice
By GotDiesel on 10/28/2008 7:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
They do, lots of them actually..
I would suggest that the pirates need something
specific for compatability reasons..


RE: Nice
By weskurtz0081 on 10/28/2008 1:38:14 PM , Rating: 5
Is Microsoft preventing you from using the software? Doesn't seem that way to me. Just because piracy is legal in China (if it is), does that mean that Microsoft should just give them the software for free?

If you owned a business, should you just give your product away for free to people that live in some other country because it is legal there?

Microsoft is an American company, and they provide a product at a cost. I don't care what is legal or illegal in other countries, stealing is not ETHICAL, and at least Microsoft is nice enough not to completely brick the software and crash the machine it is running on when it isn't a legally purchased product.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 3:38:56 AM , Rating: 3
Fck that shiat. These "victims" need to inform their local police that X company is selling pirated software. Microsoft is a large company, but no company is large enough to fight piracy on a global scale.

I don't feel what they are doing is outside their bounds. They informed users multiple times about their pirated software via those popups. Then they went with this method. Just a blacked out desktop, but useable Windows. Seems fine to me.

Now they are saying they aren't going to buy a legit Windows because of this. Sorry, but these ppl are stupid. If I was Microsoft, I'd hold a firm stance on what they are doing.

For prices. I don't know about that. Don't know what they charge, what a Chinese citizen normally makes, etc. Course they have pollution problems from ppl and their vehicles, so I'd imagine they can afford to pay the same prices as any other country with Microsoft products are paying. Those who can't afford that, probably can't afford a computer anyways.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:15:46 AM , Rating: 3
If they want to be firm, they should make it unusable if it's pirated. Screw this pussyfooting around.


RE: Nice
By MrBlastman on 10/28/2008 12:43:24 PM , Rating: 5
So wait, the way I read the article in brief was:

Hey! You won't let me steal your software anymore and are trying to ridcule us for attempting to do so!

We sue you! For the right... To Piiiiiiiir8!! :(

Doesn't anyone else find the lawyers comments rediculous?

The Chinese have been notorious for a long time of having a free ride on Microsofts software. Microsoft is now simply asking the Chinese to begin paying after generously allowing them to use the software for years freely...

...And now, the Chinese are mad about that?...

I think in this situation Microsoft is the one being nice and generous, rather than sueing all the users who pirated their software.

Or better yet, how about this:

A thief walks into a house. He grabs a TV and walks out. He walks into the next house and does the same, along with every other house on the street. The thief, feeling quite fortunate in his endeavors, decides, "Hey, if I've been this fruitful so far, perhaps I should try the next street!," and he does.

The thief then manages to plunder a load more. His sack grows full and his stomach grows hungrier for the loot that lies in the houses within view. He approaches a stalwart mansion at cul-de-sack center. Eyeing the house a pupil narrows with his eyebrows tensing. "Ahhh, I spy a great home indeed, the gems that may abound here will make the rest of the evening look like a warm up!" He gingerly walks up to the door with a hop and a skip and begins to pick the lock.

"Bugger!" He retorts, as the door fails to be picked. He looks along the creases and notices a triple-covered layer of steel paneling with extra reinforcement. "Well that does that," he pondered and off he went with a great air of dissapointment. "Those greedy fools, how dare they spoil my work, I'll show them." With that, he strolled off and to town he went. That following morning he showed up at the office of the best lawyer in town. The sign showed proud from the streetside overlook, Mr. Ican Changealot - ahh, air of progress. A man of action!

What happened next was unexpected, and defiant in its own respect. He sued the wealthy homeowner for preventing his entrance. It is they who should understand his productive exploits and it is they who should bow to his thievery, for them to block his exploits is criminal indeed. With a flick of a pen the local town thief had hired a bigger thief to do his dirtywork.

What a lockpick might not suffice, surely a pen and a gavel will prevail upon.

Rediculous.


RE: Nice
By Joz on 10/28/2008 2:44:23 PM , Rating: 3
Give this man a 6 right now.


RE: Nice
By rudolphna on 10/28/2008 3:26:14 PM , Rating: 5
Fantastic, that is exactly whats going on. give this man a 10.


RE: Nice
By Joz on 11/3/2008 2:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
how come you got a 5. and i only got a 3?


RE: Nice
By genzai on 10/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Nice
By Pavelyoung on 10/28/2008 11:15:57 PM , Rating: 3
In all honesty, those people don't have to use windows. They can just as easily use something else. Then again, their WoW bot gold farming programs probably don't work on those other OSes.....


RE: Nice
By genzai on 10/30/2008 12:42:39 PM , Rating: 1
just as easily use something else? really? hmmm. Geeze, Why am i using windows?

Perhaps they should be using Mac OS, and let them eat cake!

/s


RE: Nice
By riku0116 on 10/28/2008 11:48:05 PM , Rating: 4
You certainly made some good points there, but your argument does not really apply to the topic at hand. If I remember correctly, the WGA update that this article is referring to, i.e. the one that could "cause serious functional damage to users' computers", is something that changes the background image on a pirated copy of Windows to black every 60 minutes, with a message on the bottom right corner that informs the user that their copy of Windows is pirated................
...
THAT'S IT.

If you cannot afford to buy Windows, keep in mind that it is not your inalienable right as a human being to be able to pirate Windows with no repercussions to your user experience. And SERIOUSLY... if you have to choose between buying Windows and feeding your family, wouldn't that in itself be a more pressing matter than the aesthetic appeal of your desktop background? Perhaps a better question would be... what da HELL are you doing buying a computer in the first place?


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 3:57:10 AM , Rating: 2
Too bad this posting doesn't fall into the same issues as piracy in China.

More like the thief took all the stolen merchanise and sold it in their store. The ppl sueing are the ones that bought the stolen merchanise. They bought a TV from the thief and during their tenure with it, a scrolling text at the bottom would come up saying it was stolen, but it would disappear after a few seconds. This goes on for years. The whole time, they didn't bother telling the police.

Now the TV's remote control stopped functioning because it was stolen. The TV is still useable if they went over and used the controls on the front of the TV. Instead of telling the police about the thief and buying a new TV, they go after the TV manufacturer.


RE: Nice
By othercents on 10/28/2008 12:24:24 PM , Rating: 5
There isn't a sliding scale for life. I'm sure that the noodle restaurants outside the capital in China doesn't give one price to one person and another to another person.

Plus how can the software be too expensive when the hardware costs the same here as it does there? $300 for the computer and $100 for the software. Are they getting the computer for half as much and require half price on the software? Does this mean a family in China starves for a month because they purchased a computer and the software is just too much?

Having a computer isn't a right. Plenty of Americans can't afford a computer and there are plenty of other countries that are more developed that can't afford computers.

Other


RE: Nice
By lagomorpha on 10/28/2008 6:12:28 PM , Rating: 3
"I'm sure that the noodle restaurants outside the capital in China doesn't give one price to one person and another to another person."

In the Philippines it's a pretty common practice to charge different rates to different people for hotel stays (Japanese people are charged the most). Given how well liked the Japanese are in Eastern China it wouldn't surprise me if they were regularly charged more for various products and services, though that really comes more from a hatred of the Japanese than it does from relative wealth.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:19:08 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah but it's bull****. I think I can cross the Philippines off my list of possible destinations.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:25:58 AM , Rating: 2
Different prices happens in Paris too. Non-Parisians get charged higher and crappier service.

Probably while multiple ppl that I work with who have gone to Paris don't plan on ever going back.


RE: Nice
By akugami on 10/28/2008 1:23:37 PM , Rating: 4
I'm Asian, and in fact of Chinese descent though I am an American citizen via naturalization. I can honestly say that on the surface, going after the vendors and producers of counterfeit software seems reasonable instead of punishing users, the users in this case know full well they are buying counterfeit software.

I have zero problems with this MS initiative. I do think that MS products are priced way way way too high for developing and poorer countries. But that's a different kettle of fish. It's the same reason why movies and music do not sell in China and other countries. The prices for them are simply ridiculous.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:33:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I can honestly say that on the surface, going after the vendors and producers of counterfeit software seems reasonable instead of punishing users, the users in this case know full well they are buying counterfeit software.
How so when the users know full well that they are buying counterfeit software. And Chinas prices are just plain low for everything, you can't expect MS to sell its product which is worldwide product at a lower price in China, as this will make matters worse, it will turn Windows into more of a blackmarket piece of software because people in China will be able to sell cheaper versions to people in other countries. I don't see why you think the Chinese deserve special treatment, welcome to the free market.

If you don't like it, then you can't change your background, not exactly what I call hindering the OS.

And of course then there is always Linux if you really can't afford windows, and you can't handle not being able to change your background.


RE: Nice
By akugami on 10/28/2008 3:23:33 PM , Rating: 4
You probably misunderstood me, happens all the time in these quick posts. Reread my original post and you'll see that what I said was that I agree with what MS is doing because they are going after users of counterfeit software but not in any destructive way.

I also said I am disagreeing with the Chinese official for saying that MS should only go after the makers of counterfeit software when it is pretty much given when you buy software, especially at 90% off the retail price, that it is counterfeit. The buyers know they are buying counterfeit software so don't be surprised if it stops working.

A reason I give for the rampant piracy in poorer countries and third world countries is the very high price that is charged. When one does business one needs to tailor the products to the market in order for it to sell. When the average population makes the equivalent of $200-300 USD per month, charging the equivalent of $65 USD for Vista is ridiculous and that's drastically reduced from its previous price which was easily the monthly income for many people. Compare this with the street vendor price of $3-5 USD and you can see why people do not buy the official version.

The same thing was happening with movies and music which is why people opted for the pirated copies. I'm not saying it was right in any way. I'm just telling you why people pirated the software, movies, and music.

I did not say the Chinese deserve special treatment in any way. I am just saying you have to tailor your product to the specific markets. It is not just China with the pirated copies of software, movies and music but other poorer countries as well. Much like how MS reduced the price of their software, Warner Bros., Paramount, and Fox reduced the price of licensed movies to $3 per DVD to combat the $1.50 pirated DVD's out on the market. And again, this piracy problem where the cost of legitimate licensed goods is overpriced considering the income of the population at large exists not just in China but other parts of the world. And again, one needs to tailor one's products to compete.


RE: Nice
By Spuke on 10/28/2008 3:25:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see why you think the Chinese deserve special treatment, welcome to the free market.
Devil's Advocate here. I thought the free market charged what the market would bear? So if the Chinese are only willing to pay X price and that price is lower than the US is willing to pay then the Chinese price should be lower.


RE: Nice
By AnnihilatorX on 10/28/2008 4:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
If you are a company having a monopoly in market, setting prices too high is illegal.

It's not about free market or anything like that.


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:23:29 PM , Rating: 5
If the Chinese are mad that the price of an item is too high, then perhaps they should subsidize it like they do their oil.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 4:28:04 AM , Rating: 2
I think you have to be the only company in that market to try something as stupid as setting prices too high, as if there are other companies, they'd just undercut you and take your marketshare.


RE: Nice
By croc on 10/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Nice
By phxfreddy on 10/28/2008 3:27:15 PM , Rating: 2
another case of a country simply not playing fair in the world import / export market.

I get the idea that the computer functions but that other people can see you are using pirated stuff. Loss of face. Gees too bad.

Grow up China. Learn to have more control by letting go. Stop worrying about Wikipedia. Let your people buy American.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:31:12 AM , Rating: 2
Wikipedia is probably blocked by their country's government or some BS like that. Wouldn't be surprised.


RE: Nice
By mooncancook on 10/28/2008 3:58:34 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how much MS charges for its software in countries like China, but I believe (just for example) if MS pays 1/5 the American salary for an equivalent position in its China offices, then it'll be fair if they only charge 1/5 the price for their software over there. But even with lowered prices, it's gonna take time for the majority of the Chinese population to get used to the idea that software is not free.


RE: Nice
By Mr Perfect on 10/28/2008 1:29:53 PM , Rating: 2
Windows isn't really a luxury item like those ones are.

This is more like walking into a Hyundai dealership and stealing a sub-$20,000 car because you can't afford it. Or going to K-Mart and shoplifting a Jerseys sweater that's on sale for $20.

It's still theft, but it's not some expensive piece of equipment you don't really need.

Now if they where stealing MacBooks on the other hand... :D


RE: Nice
By exanimas on 10/28/2008 2:23:46 PM , Rating: 5
Windows IS a luxury item. Like another poster said, they could get along just fine with Linux, or OMGZ!, even no computer at all. A Geo Metro will get you to work fine, just like Linux can get you all of the basic uses of a computer fine. If you can't afford Windows (or the Aston Martin, as used in the example above), you use what you can afford, not what you're capable of stealing.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 3:23:45 PM , Rating: 5
But then how would they log into World of Warcraft to farm and sell gold? :)


RE: Nice
By sprockkets on 10/29/2008 2:45:46 AM , Rating: 1
Heh, they could always pirate OSX. No WGA there or keys or any form of protection (except for hardware tie ins, which of course are taken care of).

Quite ironic that just about every part of a computer is now made in China, except the OS, and that is the only part they bitch about as far as price.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 8:45:09 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, majority of computer parts are made in Taiwan. China thinks Taiwan belongs to them, while the rest of the world sees otherwise.


RE: Nice
By sprockkets on 10/29/2008 4:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Read your labels on your motherboard, cd drive, most ram, and cases. They all now say MADE IN CHINA.

Don't believe me? My older Asus board, the nForce 220, was made in Taiwan. How do I know? It says right on the motherboard. My older Pioneer DVD drive, was made in Japan. Same for FSP power supplies.

Today? They all say MADE IN CHINA.

Are you saying that now because of what China thinks, stuff made in Taiwan has to be labeled otherwise?


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 2:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
For the billionth time, you cannot compare intellectual property with physical property. If physical is taken, the owner is deprived of property - in IP no property is lost by the owner.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:48:06 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
in IP no property is lost by the owner.
Copyright law would tend to disagree. This is your opinion, it is in no way or form fact. If your statement was true, then why on earth do we have the patent/copyright system?


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 3:27:00 PM , Rating: 1
That isn't fact, eh?

Senario A: Car exists physically, car is taken from owner, owner is deprived of property (car)

Senario B: Software exists intellectually, software is taken from owner (ie copy), owner is not deprived of property as owner still has a copy

You cannot equate physical property on the same level as intellectual property that's like comparing apples to hamburger. That is the only statement I made, in response to Mick's post which tries to do that (wrongly).

I never said it wasn't copyright infringement, I in fact remind people very often that is what it is (when they try to claim it is theft).


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/28/2008 5:48:41 PM , Rating: 3
REVENUE is lost. Get it? MONEY is stolen when you steal intellectual property. Even if it is YET TO BE MADE MONEY, it is in fact, MULA. This is why the system is in place, and this is why piracy is THEFT. The "if I could not have stolen it I would not have bought it" clause is NOT in effect. Sorry, but that just doesn't fly with anyone responsible with ideas being stolen. It's a poor argument created by those who are trying to justify their criminal actions.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 7:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
So, when you deprive someone possible revenue it is the same as stealing? In that case, have you ever played your music loud enough for someone else to hear? In that case you are a criminal because that was potential revenue for the record industry. Pay up criminal. Ever sang along to a song? View a movie with more than a few people in the room? Copied or quoted lines out of a publication or book? Pay up criminal. You are stealing potential revenue from the IP holder.


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:29:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So, when you deprive someone possible revenue it is the same as stealing?

Yes, this is especially true in modern day economy as we've migrated to a service based industry from a manufacturing based industry. Anymore, theft does not have to be the possession of a physical item.

If you don't want to call it "stealing", then fine by me. But illegally blocking someones revenue while still obtaining that service without paying deserves harsh justice.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 10:20:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
22-30A-1. Theft--Violation. Any person who takes, or exercises unauthorized control over, property of another, with intent to deprive that person of the property , is guilty of theft.

It is not theft. It is copyright infringement as we have both said. I never said it was right or wrong, only you can't compare physical and intellectual property because both are treated differently and have different laws that applies to them.

And by your logic if owned a company that makes wrenches and you own a company that makes wrenches, and if someone buys my product instead of yours I am a criminal because I stole potential revenue from you. That is just ludicrous and insane.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:19:20 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And by your logic if owned a company that makes wrenches and you own a company that makes wrenches, and if someone buys my product instead of yours I am a criminal because I stole potential revenue from you. That is just ludicrous and insane.


If you reversed engineered the wrenches from the other person's wrenches and started mass production and selling them, then yes. You are a criminal because you stole their potential revenue from them.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:25:47 AM , Rating: 2
That analogy is broken. Someone profited from an honest transaction, and the party who didn't lost nothing. With copyright violation, no one profits, and revenue is denied to the victim as well as to any of his potential competitors.

Obviously isn't not %100 the same as stealing, but when your business is creating and selling software, if people take a copy without remunerating you it harms your business, in a way the law agrees is illegal. It's sophistry to try to explain it away by saying the vendor still has his copy.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:43:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is not theft. It is copyright infringement as we have both said.


PUBLIC LAW 105-147 [H.R. 2265]
No Electronic Theft Act

Seems the US Government feels that copyright infringement is theft. I'll go with Federal Law over State Laws.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/29/2008 7:40:07 AM , Rating: 1
Firstly, I would like to point out in your 'NET' act, there is no defination of theft in there. The only time the word 'theft' is used is in the title and bills can be named anything. It is not like the Patriot Act, Clear Skys Act, or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act do what they actually say in the title, nor is the title used in court. Why do you think there is a McCain Feinstein Bill, titles can be named anything. They chose to put theft into NET because theft fits in an acronym for NET.

Theft is not mentioned in NET once in text of the law because theft is defined in the US and common law as..

quote:
22-30A-1. Theft--Violation. Any person who takes, or exercises unauthorized control over, property of another, with intent to deprive that person of the property, is guilty of theft.


The bolded portion is not only speaking to mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) but also the status in which is required of theft. If one cannot deprive a person of property one cannot have the mental capacity to have the intent to do so. As stated before, it is not theft.

It is a copyright violation, which you have decided to copy and paste one of many US Federal laws on Copyrights. In fact, not even the RIAA or MPAA that is going around suing people would want this to fall under the legal defination of theft (the one that actually matters), this is because copyright violations (as you define as IP 'theft') have harsher punishments than every day theft.

If you were to walk into the store and shoplift the same software that someone is pirating, the amount of jail time you are actually going to receive and the maximum fine are far more severe under copyright violation than under petty theft. In my day to day work, I have seen such petty theft pay back the value of the goods taken and receive probation. Where as in most copyright cases they may be sent to federal prison for up to a year AND have to pay a fine near 300x the value of the IP.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 10:28:45 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

Theft includes tresspassing. If you want to follow wiki. That would of course have Trespass to Chattels.

Kremen v. Cohen. Cohen stole Kremen's domain name sex.com. An object that you cannot hold physically, see physically, etc. He used Trespass to Chattels to get it back. He tried conversion, but that failed as domain name isn't a tangible property.

Things get funky at the Federal level.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:09:20 PM , Rating: 2
That's called competition. However, if I patent a new wrench and you copy my wrench and try to earn revenue off of it then you have stolen my revenue. The patent system was designed to give intellectual rights to individuals and companies. It's pretty clear and concise, I'm not sure why China and half of America are having issues with this. Patents expire after a set time, and then you can sell all the wrenches you want. Until then, it was my idea and I deserve credit for my sitting down and doing the work of figuring out how to make it work.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:05:43 PM , Rating: 2
Viewing or listening together is what the music was intended for. Making copies of it so that you can listen to it when you're on different continents is NOT what it is intended for. I think it's pretty clear cut. Ownership is not defined by how it is projected but by how it is stored.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 2:58:34 PM , Rating: 4
So then by your justification, the following scenario is ok:

You've just performed a service for someone that you expected to get paid for(let's say you've fixed someone's computer system). If they decide that they won't pay you after you've done the work, then that's perfectly fine because you're not deprived of any physical property.

:rollseyes:


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 3:28:09 PM , Rating: 2
Never said it was a justification, just pointing out you cannot put IP and PP on the same level and compare them. I made no assertion that it is right or wrong to copy software.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/28/2008 5:51:42 PM , Rating: 1
You're wrong. You CAN put them on the same level because ideas = money.

I have an idea, you take credit for it and get that promotion and a nice $30 a year bump in salary. Tell me again how that isn't stealing from me? You just took my f'n salary bump you mother f'n stealing bastard. Get a clue kid, intellectual property is more safe guarded at corporations than physical property is. One idea is worth a million staplers and paper clips.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 7:37:18 PM , Rating: 3
You can steal potential money?


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:30:47 PM , Rating: 2
In a sense, yes. That is the vast difference of a modern day service based economy, as opposed to a manufacturing based economy. The lack of "physical" items.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:26:48 AM , Rating: 2
Welcome to the information age, you'll find your clue in your welcome basket.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:12:03 PM , Rating: 2
+1.


RE: Nice
By killerb255 on 10/29/2008 3:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think the problem here is that our society's definition of "stealing" relating to tangible, physical property is so entrenched in our minds that the concept of stealing "intangible" or intellectual property is foreign.

How about a compromise? Let's call it "clealing"? :) A portmanteau of "stealing" and "cloning."

If there were a such thing as clone rays, and we cloned a Mercedes-Benz from a dealer's lot and drove off with the clone, would that even registered on the "wrong" meter of one's ethical radar? By society's entrenched definition of stealing, not really. By today's information age, absolutely!

So from now on, downloaded commercial mp3s, ROMs, warez, etc. that fall outside of exceptions such as "owning the original copy" or whatever else people justify such things with shall be called "clolen" goods. :)


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't really like this is a new concept. If someone had made a mockery of the Egyptian Pyramids by making exact copies of them in a neighboring region back in their day of creation, I imagine the Kings would have been outraged. Not only because it's a sacrilege to their Godliness, but because darnit, they designed that pyramid to be bigger and better than anyone elses. How dare you!


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not quite sure how you got rated up and I got rated down except that I used an abbreviation of a curse and someone obviously took offense to that. But I imagine they would be using those words if someone came along and said that the work you did was theirs, and then took your paycheck.

Just because the money is not in your hand yet does not mean you don't have it coming to you for the work you've done. If you have done work, then via contract you have earned something. Just because it is not physically in your hand yet or bank account does not mean you do not own that money. Businesses operate under the accounting assumption of money they have yet to receive. If you study business contract law and accounting principles in school, you will understand so much more about debits and credits and how a business operates. This is why they keep books, and have so many accountants. Because at any given time managers need to know exactly what they can afford and when they will be able to do things under the constraints of a budget.

Just because it isn't physical labor does not mean it is not labor. The highest paying jobs are the ones you go to college for so you don't have to do manual labor. Thinking is WORK, because it is the thought that goes into the manual labor that makes a corporation revenue. College does not only give you a knowledge base to do a job, but it teaches you how to go about doing that job. College often teaches students discipline and thought processing. It isn't just about your final conclusion, but the steps involved in getting to it that are important. There is an efficient and moralistic way to achieve an answer, and there is an uneducated and immoral way to often arrive at the same place. In court, HOW you do something is just as important as WHAT you did. At least, it usually is, it depends on the case and those present and residing. No system or human judge is perfect.


RE: Nice
By Spuke on 10/28/2008 3:39:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
then that's perfectly fine because you're not deprived of any physical property.
Sigh. The poster didn't say it wasn't illegal, he said the owner is not deprived of property when intellectual property is "stolen". Doesn't mean it's not illegal, just means he still possesses the property.

Example: If you download a music CD from the internet illegally, does the owner of that CD lose possession of ALL of his CD's? Nope. Does he even lose possession of that one CD? Nope. He still has an infinite amount of copies of that CD.


RE: Nice
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 7:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
True but you are in a sense stealing a copy of software. It may not be physical, but you are copying and taking something unauthorized by its owner.

I understand what the orignal poster is saying and what your saying.


RE: Nice
By rdeegvainl on 10/28/2008 10:11:39 PM , Rating: 2
You're not stealing a copy. You are breaking the copyright. You know, the thing that says who has a right to copy. Both illegal, but DIFFERENT, and rightfully treated different.


RE: Nice
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 10:25:04 PM , Rating: 2
I know that. What I'm saying is that you are making and taking an unauthorized copy of software.


RE: Nice
By rdeegvainl on 10/28/2008 10:27:47 PM , Rating: 2
agreed :)


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 6:10:24 AM , Rating: 2
Legal definitions and regular definitions are two different things. Under legal terms, reproduction of someone else's intellectual property is theft/stealing and copyright infrigement.

US Federal Laws says copyright infrigement is stealing. Criminal Code of Canada does the same. I'm sure multiple Euro countries do the same.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 3:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
You have to remember to sue them if they attempt to block your theft though.


RE: Nice
By Beno on 10/28/2008 3:33:18 PM , Rating: 2
dont be stupid!
thats not a car or a jacket or plasma tv

this is a peice of software. they dont see software much valuable.


RE: Nice
By marvdmartian on 10/28/2008 4:02:23 PM , Rating: 2
How DARE they mess with my computer with the pirated operating system!!! Nevermind that if no one bought these pirated OS's the market would dry up and no one would pirate them again........you should go after the pirates!!

Chinese people just got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and don't have any problem with blaming Microsoft for it. Don't blame us, we didn't make the cookies, darn it!!


RE: Nice
By Cypherdude1 on 10/29/2008 4:13:21 AM , Rating: 2
Would you happen to have a brown leather bomber jacket in there somewhere? I'm looking for one at a reduced price. The ones they have in the store are too expensive.

B ^D
quote:
"Walks into a Banana Republic store* "$200 for a sweater? $300 for a jacket? Outrageous! These prices are WAY too high for the market. Looks like I'm just going to have to steal all of these..."


RE: Nice
By subhajit on 10/29/2008 7:42:08 AM , Rating: 1
There are alternatives to a Aston Martin or a Plasma TV but there is no viable alternative to Windows.
  You cannot lower the prices of a high end hardware product to a great extent because of material costs. But there is scope for lowering prices of a software product and perhaps increasing the sales number. Software products only has very small recurring costs.
  I am from India. Price of a copy of windows is too high for most average middle class person. But personal computer is a necessity now-a-days, even in the developing nations.
  Not to mention the hardware prices, which are at least 1.5 times that of US.
Please don't get me wrong. I am not for a moment supporting piracy. I think a solution can be reached in the following ways.

- I like the idea of a Starter edition of Windows but it
  has two big problems:
  1. It restricts some of the basic OS features.
  2. Lack of awareness. Microsoft spends so much   money on
  advertisements which are relevant for enterprises
  only. Why not something which will sell it to the home
  user. Sell it like any other commodity.

- Open Source: A Linux distribution that can truly be a
  replacement for Windows. Probably some amount of govt.
  backing is required

- Sell old OS at bargain price. Windows XP in year 2009 for Rs.
  500


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 11:09:21 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
There are alternatives to a Aston Martin or a Plasma TV but there is no viable alternative to Windows.


Linux or OSX. Sounds like a viable alternative to me.

quote:
I am from India. Price of a copy of windows is too high for most average middle class person. But personal computer is a necessity now-a-days, even in the developing nations.


Explain how it is a necessity? Does every single average middle class person in India own a computer? I bet you'll answer, No.

quote:
Not to mention the hardware prices, which are at least 1.5 times that of US.


Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop - $700 USD in India
Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop - $700 USD in US

Went to the Dell India site and the Dell US site.

quote:
- I like the idea of a Starter edition of Windows but it
has two big problems:
1. It restricts some of the basic OS features.
2. Lack of awareness. Microsoft spends so much money on
advertisements which are relevant for enterprises
only. Why not something which will sell it to the home
user. Sell it like any other commodity.


1. The crap Windows Starter Edition doesn't restrict basic OS features. It takes away the advance features. The only thing I'd say it does is limits the Starter Edition to low end hardware and disallows you to use more than 3 programs at once. But if you have crap hardware anyways, I wouldn't use more than 3 programs at once.

2. Windows XP Home, Windows Vista Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate. Microsoft is definitely geared to home users.

quote:
- Open Source: A Linux distribution that can truly be a
replacement for Windows. Probably some amount of govt.
backing is required


Have you looked at any Linux distros? Linspire and Suse are fairly good. They hardly need any government backing.

quote:
- Sell old OS at bargain price. Windows XP in year 2009 for Rs.
500


Ya...okay. Keep dreaming on that one. An OS isn't like a piece of hardware that gets easily outdated within a year or two. Anyways, Windows XP Home is close to 1/3 the price of what it was released at. Windows XP Pro is 1/2 the price.


screw them
By TechIsGr8 on 10/28/2008 12:03:21 PM , Rating: 5
Screw the chinese... they've poisoned our pets with tainted dog food, poisoned our elderly with tainted heparin, poisoned our children with toxins in toys, poisoned babies with melamine in milk, poisoned villagers with tainted drinking water, and have gutted American-based manufacturing. A real bloody shame that they can't continue to steal Microsoft software.