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Official argues Microsoft's prices are too high for the Chinese market

According to Reuters, a top Chinese copyright official criticized Microsoft for implementing an anti-piracy tool that nags users of counterfeit software with a black computer screen. The same official also criticized Microsoft’s prices as too high for the Chinese market.

The validation software called Windows Genuine Advantage launched in China last week, and the program displays a black desktop on counterfeit versions of the Windows XP operating system with a permanent nag notice in the bottom-right corner of the screen. Users can change the background, but it reverts to black after an hour.

Microsoft’s attempt to discourage piracy was met with outrage in China where a large majority of computer users are believed to be using pirated versions of its software. Threats of lawsuits against Microsoft turned in to a reality as the outrage grew.

Dong Zhengwei, a Beijing lawyer, said Microsoft was abusing its market power and had filed a complaint to China's trade watchdog, the State Administration for Industry and Commerce, the China Daily said in a report.

In a PC World article Dong said, "Microsoft's measure will cause serious functional damage to users' computers and, according to China's criminal law, the company can stand accused of breaching and hacking into computer systems of Chinese." Dong also said Microsoft was targeting the wrong group stating, "I respect the right of Microsoft to protect its intellectual property, but it is taking on the wrong target with wrong measures." He also added, "They should target producers and sellers of fake software, not users."

Chinese users expressed their displeasure by posting their thoughts to the Sina.com portal. User Liu Peng wrote, "First of all, Microsoft anti-piracy has the wrong focus. The fight against piracy should focus on the pirates."

An online survey conducted by Sina.com showed 86% of 90,000 people polled saying that they wouldn't buy a legal copy because of the new anti-piracy software. It was unclear what percentage would have bought a legal copy had the anti-piracy measures not been implemented.

National Copyright Administration (NCA) Vice-Director Yan Xiaohong said his agency supported "the rights-safeguarding move taken by institutions including Microsoft," according to the Xinhua news agency. Yan objected to the method Microsoft chose to use stating companies should "pay attention to the methods. Whether the 'black-out' method should be adopted is open to question. Measures for safeguarding rights also need to be appropriate," Yan also said Microsoft's price policies needed to "fit the Chinese situation." stating, "The company adopted unified prices in the past without considering the income gap between developed and developing countries, so we need to kindly remind them that Chinese customers' affordability should be considered."

Microsoft defended the program as a measure to protect its intellectual property and help customers determine that they have legal software. A Microsoft spokeswoman said the Chinese reaction is overblown. "It seems like they don't know how Windows Genuine Advantage is deployed. It's only installed after you've accepted the download," she said. These statements refute comments made by some Chinese users that they were surprised by the change. Microsoft had also warned users last week that the change was coming, "It's possible they clicked without noticing” she added.

She also mentioned that the recent validation update is not the first time that Microsoft's software has come with anti-piracy protection in China. "Odds are, this was probably not the first time you've seen a Windows Genuine Advantage notification if you're seeing it now," she continued, referring to the older Notifications software that displayed only a log-on message and a small less intrusive pop up in the bottom right corner.

Although this issue has generated significant outrage within the Chinese community, methods for getting around the validation program were circulated on Chinese blogs and internet chat-rooms within days of its launch.



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Nice
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/28/2008 11:50:58 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Official argues Microsoft's prices are too high for the Chinese market


(Disclaimer: I usually am opposed to punitive piracy punishment...)

Wow, that's quite an interesting stance for a government official to take.

Imagine if you could apply that logic to everything here in the States...

*Walks into a Aston Martin store* "These prices are too high for this market! I will have to steal one of your vehicles..."

*Walks into a Banana Republic store* "$200 for a sweater? $300 for a jacket? Outrageous! These prices are WAY too high for the market. Looks like I'm just going to have to steal all of these..."

*Walks into Best Buy* "$6000 for that massive plasma TV?? That is just ridiculously high for this market. You know what that means. Yep, that's right..." *takes the plasma tv and walks out*

And if they protest:
"Hey. It's not my fault. Maybe you should have thought about lowering your prices, huh?"




RE: Nice
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 11:56:26 AM , Rating: 5
While I do agree with your statement most (if not all) global companies offer differnt prices for differnt markets around the world on the same goods.

But my gut tells me that China wants all it's software for the price of: Free.


RE: Nice
By Targon on 10/28/2008 12:16:06 PM , Rating: 4
And of course, having the desktop go black doesn't mean the machine can't be used, it just means the person using the pirated version needs to DO something. Those who steal something don't have ANY rights to complain about what they have stolen.

Then again, if someone breaks into a public building and then gets hurt due to something like an "exit" sign not being there, that person has effectively given up their rights to sue IMO because they have violated the law.

There really needs to be a new global law that says that if you are violating the law, you lose the right to sue if YOU get hurt. Even something like defective rope should be subject to this, where if you are using a length of rope to commit a crime, you lose the right to sue the manufacturer if it malfunctions while you are using it to break the law.


RE: Nice
By othercents on 10/28/2008 12:30:19 PM , Rating: 2
However the person using the software purchased it legally per the Chinese Government. I guess selling stolen property in China is legal, or pirated software isn't consider stolen. The Chinese Government wants Microsoft to go after the piraters not the end users "victims".

Other


RE: Nice
By nosfe on 10/28/2008 12:39:36 PM , Rating: 2
well, using/getting pirated software is legal in my country but only for personal use; people tend to forget that piracy is about legal/illegal and laws are different from country to country, whats illegal in your country doesn't make it illegal in mine, oh and no, i'm not chinese and don't live in China


RE: Nice
By Grast on 10/28/2008 1:32:33 PM , Rating: 5
Based on your stance, I expect to NOT hear you complain when your screen goes black. If you know you are using a pirated piece of software and continue to use it, you DESERVE to have some blacklash.

China is using an AMERICAN product. They could always use Linux. I am sure the linux community would love an additional billion users of the software.

later...


RE: Nice
By Tsuwamono on 10/28/2008 1:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
I have pirated windows. I dont think i have ever paid for Windows since Windows 95. All that is required is that you dont use WGA. comb the updates and make sure microsoft doesnt install any of their spyware crap on your computer. Meh.

I prefer Linux anyway, i only use Windows for when i feel like playing a game.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:37:10 PM , Rating: 2
Spyware/Malware is illegal in almost every form, if you really think MS packages either of these you are a moron. Sometimes I wonder if people take a second to realize that 80%+ of Microsoft's business resides in the business sector, it would be a legal nightmare for them to start including spy/malware in windows updates.


RE: Nice
By inighthawki on 10/28/2008 4:34:18 PM , Rating: 3
People often tend to refer to MS's genuine advantage stuff as spyware. We are all aware its not REALLY spyware, but its just coined as such because of the way it behaves. Don't take things so literally.


RE: Nice
By paydirt on 10/29/2008 10:38:44 AM , Rating: 3
The Chinese gov't has refused to crackdown on copyright violators. The Chinese Gov't wants their country to get others countries' technology, software, movies, and games for free.

Buyer beware. If you buy a copy of Windows for $2, it probably isn't legit. Kinda like Rolex's on street corners. Just silly.


RE: Nice
By murphyslabrat on 10/28/2008 2:48:18 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I prefer Linux anyway, i only use Windows for when i feel like playing a game.

Which of course, makes it ok to pirate a copy...as long as you don't use it very much.

WTF?


RE: Nice
By Samus on 10/28/2008 9:04:09 PM , Rating: 4
i wouldn't publicly post your intentionally pirated spooge too loudly 99.141.18.216

it's probably a safe bet if you have a pirated os, those games your playing are also pirated. and perhaps your dvd burning program for all those netflix you make illegal copies of. and who knows, maybe the hard disk you download all those torrent albums too is stolen. pirated. stolen. it all gets blurry sometimes i suppose. but we all know you didn't MEAN to pocket that WD passport at circuit city back in June, your just a desperate college student that couldn't find a job over the summer because you have no skillz.


RE: Nice
By Maskarat on 10/29/2008 8:01:23 AM , Rating: 1
yaaaaaawn... are you done with the self gratifying rhetoric?

I'm glad you find it reasonable to spend 95% of your salary on this crap. I'm glad you're happy. I don't :) And I'm still happy!


RE: Nice
By nosfe on 10/28/2008 6:44:36 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Based on your stance, I expect to NOT hear you complain when your screen goes black. If you know you are using a pirated piece of software and continue to use it, you DESERVE to have some blacklash.


because my comment was full of complaints against the dirty tactics of microsoft, full of them

quote:
China is using an AMERICAN product. They could always use Linux. I am sure the linux community would love an additional billion users of the software.


american components, russian components, all made in taiwan!

so you're saying that the product must be used according to the laws from the country it originated in? it doesn't work that way the last time i checked, do french cars have to pass american safety standards or french safety standards so that they can be sold in the US?


RE: Nice
By tedrodai on 10/29/2008 10:59:15 AM , Rating: 2
Your original point was indeed valid, and that's something a company should take into consideration when selling in markets foreign to their own. And, based on pure conjecture, I lean towards believing the Chinese official's statement that Microsoft's pricing there is too high (but I still think his motives are BS). It's really not important, however.

Just because it may be legal in your own country to pirate software, doesn't mean a software developer has to provide a product that can be easily pirated. Regardless, it seems to me like they simply turned their operating systems into shareware. In return for a great free operating system, are you really complaining about this lack of functionality:

"OMG @*%^@ I can't set my own desktop background!!@!$!"

Please...


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 11:16:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
do french cars have to pass american safety standards or french safety standards so that they can be sold in the US?


They are usually built to pass both, then whatever allowed them to pass American safety standards is swapped out lower cost items, as Euro safety standards aren't as harsh.


RE: Nice
By Etsp on 10/31/2008 6:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
But that's only because it's cheaper to make x number of one car, instead of y+z number of two different cars (x=y+z) This is motivated by price, not law.


RE: Nice
By GotDiesel on 10/28/2008 7:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
They do, lots of them actually..
I would suggest that the pirates need something
specific for compatability reasons..


RE: Nice
By weskurtz0081 on 10/28/2008 1:38:14 PM , Rating: 5
Is Microsoft preventing you from using the software? Doesn't seem that way to me. Just because piracy is legal in China (if it is), does that mean that Microsoft should just give them the software for free?

If you owned a business, should you just give your product away for free to people that live in some other country because it is legal there?

Microsoft is an American company, and they provide a product at a cost. I don't care what is legal or illegal in other countries, stealing is not ETHICAL, and at least Microsoft is nice enough not to completely brick the software and crash the machine it is running on when it isn't a legally purchased product.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 3:38:56 AM , Rating: 3
Fck that shiat. These "victims" need to inform their local police that X company is selling pirated software. Microsoft is a large company, but no company is large enough to fight piracy on a global scale.

I don't feel what they are doing is outside their bounds. They informed users multiple times about their pirated software via those popups. Then they went with this method. Just a blacked out desktop, but useable Windows. Seems fine to me.

Now they are saying they aren't going to buy a legit Windows because of this. Sorry, but these ppl are stupid. If I was Microsoft, I'd hold a firm stance on what they are doing.

For prices. I don't know about that. Don't know what they charge, what a Chinese citizen normally makes, etc. Course they have pollution problems from ppl and their vehicles, so I'd imagine they can afford to pay the same prices as any other country with Microsoft products are paying. Those who can't afford that, probably can't afford a computer anyways.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:15:46 AM , Rating: 3
If they want to be firm, they should make it unusable if it's pirated. Screw this pussyfooting around.


RE: Nice
By MrBlastman on 10/28/2008 12:43:24 PM , Rating: 5
So wait, the way I read the article in brief was:

Hey! You won't let me steal your software anymore and are trying to ridcule us for attempting to do so!

We sue you! For the right... To Piiiiiiiir8!! :(

Doesn't anyone else find the lawyers comments rediculous?

The Chinese have been notorious for a long time of having a free ride on Microsofts software. Microsoft is now simply asking the Chinese to begin paying after generously allowing them to use the software for years freely...

...And now, the Chinese are mad about that?...

I think in this situation Microsoft is the one being nice and generous, rather than sueing all the users who pirated their software.

Or better yet, how about this:

A thief walks into a house. He grabs a TV and walks out. He walks into the next house and does the same, along with every other house on the street. The thief, feeling quite fortunate in his endeavors, decides, "Hey, if I've been this fruitful so far, perhaps I should try the next street!," and he does.

The thief then manages to plunder a load more. His sack grows full and his stomach grows hungrier for the loot that lies in the houses within view. He approaches a stalwart mansion at cul-de-sack center. Eyeing the house a pupil narrows with his eyebrows tensing. "Ahhh, I spy a great home indeed, the gems that may abound here will make the rest of the evening look like a warm up!" He gingerly walks up to the door with a hop and a skip and begins to pick the lock.

"Bugger!" He retorts, as the door fails to be picked. He looks along the creases and notices a triple-covered layer of steel paneling with extra reinforcement. "Well that does that," he pondered and off he went with a great air of dissapointment. "Those greedy fools, how dare they spoil my work, I'll show them." With that, he strolled off and to town he went. That following morning he showed up at the office of the best lawyer in town. The sign showed proud from the streetside overlook, Mr. Ican Changealot - ahh, air of progress. A man of action!

What happened next was unexpected, and defiant in its own respect. He sued the wealthy homeowner for preventing his entrance. It is they who should understand his productive exploits and it is they who should bow to his thievery, for them to block his exploits is criminal indeed. With a flick of a pen the local town thief had hired a bigger thief to do his dirtywork.

What a lockpick might not suffice, surely a pen and a gavel will prevail upon.

Rediculous.


RE: Nice
By Joz on 10/28/2008 2:44:23 PM , Rating: 3
Give this man a 6 right now.


RE: Nice
By rudolphna on 10/28/2008 3:26:14 PM , Rating: 5
Fantastic, that is exactly whats going on. give this man a 10.


RE: Nice
By Joz on 11/3/2008 2:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
how come you got a 5. and i only got a 3?


RE: Nice
By genzai on 10/28/08, Rating: -1
RE: Nice
By Pavelyoung on 10/28/2008 11:15:57 PM , Rating: 3
In all honesty, those people don't have to use windows. They can just as easily use something else. Then again, their WoW bot gold farming programs probably don't work on those other OSes.....


RE: Nice
By genzai on 10/30/2008 12:42:39 PM , Rating: 1
just as easily use something else? really? hmmm. Geeze, Why am i using windows?

Perhaps they should be using Mac OS, and let them eat cake!

/s


RE: Nice
By riku0116 on 10/28/2008 11:48:05 PM , Rating: 4
You certainly made some good points there, but your argument does not really apply to the topic at hand. If I remember correctly, the WGA update that this article is referring to, i.e. the one that could "cause serious functional damage to users' computers", is something that changes the background image on a pirated copy of Windows to black every 60 minutes, with a message on the bottom right corner that informs the user that their copy of Windows is pirated................
...
THAT'S IT.

If you cannot afford to buy Windows, keep in mind that it is not your inalienable right as a human being to be able to pirate Windows with no repercussions to your user experience. And SERIOUSLY... if you have to choose between buying Windows and feeding your family, wouldn't that in itself be a more pressing matter than the aesthetic appeal of your desktop background? Perhaps a better question would be... what da HELL are you doing buying a computer in the first place?


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 3:57:10 AM , Rating: 2
Too bad this posting doesn't fall into the same issues as piracy in China.

More like the thief took all the stolen merchanise and sold it in their store. The ppl sueing are the ones that bought the stolen merchanise. They bought a TV from the thief and during their tenure with it, a scrolling text at the bottom would come up saying it was stolen, but it would disappear after a few seconds. This goes on for years. The whole time, they didn't bother telling the police.

Now the TV's remote control stopped functioning because it was stolen. The TV is still useable if they went over and used the controls on the front of the TV. Instead of telling the police about the thief and buying a new TV, they go after the TV manufacturer.


RE: Nice
By othercents on 10/28/2008 12:24:24 PM , Rating: 5
There isn't a sliding scale for life. I'm sure that the noodle restaurants outside the capital in China doesn't give one price to one person and another to another person.

Plus how can the software be too expensive when the hardware costs the same here as it does there? $300 for the computer and $100 for the software. Are they getting the computer for half as much and require half price on the software? Does this mean a family in China starves for a month because they purchased a computer and the software is just too much?

Having a computer isn't a right. Plenty of Americans can't afford a computer and there are plenty of other countries that are more developed that can't afford computers.

Other


RE: Nice
By lagomorpha on 10/28/2008 6:12:28 PM , Rating: 3
"I'm sure that the noodle restaurants outside the capital in China doesn't give one price to one person and another to another person."

In the Philippines it's a pretty common practice to charge different rates to different people for hotel stays (Japanese people are charged the most). Given how well liked the Japanese are in Eastern China it wouldn't surprise me if they were regularly charged more for various products and services, though that really comes more from a hatred of the Japanese than it does from relative wealth.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:19:08 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah but it's bull****. I think I can cross the Philippines off my list of possible destinations.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:25:58 AM , Rating: 2
Different prices happens in Paris too. Non-Parisians get charged higher and crappier service.

Probably while multiple ppl that I work with who have gone to Paris don't plan on ever going back.


RE: Nice
By akugami on 10/28/2008 1:23:37 PM , Rating: 4
I'm Asian, and in fact of Chinese descent though I am an American citizen via naturalization. I can honestly say that on the surface, going after the vendors and producers of counterfeit software seems reasonable instead of punishing users, the users in this case know full well they are buying counterfeit software.

I have zero problems with this MS initiative. I do think that MS products are priced way way way too high for developing and poorer countries. But that's a different kettle of fish. It's the same reason why movies and music do not sell in China and other countries. The prices for them are simply ridiculous.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:33:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I can honestly say that on the surface, going after the vendors and producers of counterfeit software seems reasonable instead of punishing users, the users in this case know full well they are buying counterfeit software.
How so when the users know full well that they are buying counterfeit software. And Chinas prices are just plain low for everything, you can't expect MS to sell its product which is worldwide product at a lower price in China, as this will make matters worse, it will turn Windows into more of a blackmarket piece of software because people in China will be able to sell cheaper versions to people in other countries. I don't see why you think the Chinese deserve special treatment, welcome to the free market.

If you don't like it, then you can't change your background, not exactly what I call hindering the OS.

And of course then there is always Linux if you really can't afford windows, and you can't handle not being able to change your background.


RE: Nice
By akugami on 10/28/2008 3:23:33 PM , Rating: 4
You probably misunderstood me, happens all the time in these quick posts. Reread my original post and you'll see that what I said was that I agree with what MS is doing because they are going after users of counterfeit software but not in any destructive way.

I also said I am disagreeing with the Chinese official for saying that MS should only go after the makers of counterfeit software when it is pretty much given when you buy software, especially at 90% off the retail price, that it is counterfeit. The buyers know they are buying counterfeit software so don't be surprised if it stops working.

A reason I give for the rampant piracy in poorer countries and third world countries is the very high price that is charged. When one does business one needs to tailor the products to the market in order for it to sell. When the average population makes the equivalent of $200-300 USD per month, charging the equivalent of $65 USD for Vista is ridiculous and that's drastically reduced from its previous price which was easily the monthly income for many people. Compare this with the street vendor price of $3-5 USD and you can see why people do not buy the official version.

The same thing was happening with movies and music which is why people opted for the pirated copies. I'm not saying it was right in any way. I'm just telling you why people pirated the software, movies, and music.

I did not say the Chinese deserve special treatment in any way. I am just saying you have to tailor your product to the specific markets. It is not just China with the pirated copies of software, movies and music but other poorer countries as well. Much like how MS reduced the price of their software, Warner Bros., Paramount, and Fox reduced the price of licensed movies to $3 per DVD to combat the $1.50 pirated DVD's out on the market. And again, this piracy problem where the cost of legitimate licensed goods is overpriced considering the income of the population at large exists not just in China but other parts of the world. And again, one needs to tailor one's products to compete.


RE: Nice
By Spuke on 10/28/2008 3:25:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see why you think the Chinese deserve special treatment, welcome to the free market.
Devil's Advocate here. I thought the free market charged what the market would bear? So if the Chinese are only willing to pay X price and that price is lower than the US is willing to pay then the Chinese price should be lower.


RE: Nice
By AnnihilatorX on 10/28/2008 4:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
If you are a company having a monopoly in market, setting prices too high is illegal.

It's not about free market or anything like that.


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:23:29 PM , Rating: 5
If the Chinese are mad that the price of an item is too high, then perhaps they should subsidize it like they do their oil.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 4:28:04 AM , Rating: 2
I think you have to be the only company in that market to try something as stupid as setting prices too high, as if there are other companies, they'd just undercut you and take your marketshare.


RE: Nice
By croc on 10/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Nice
By phxfreddy on 10/28/2008 3:27:15 PM , Rating: 2
another case of a country simply not playing fair in the world import / export market.

I get the idea that the computer functions but that other people can see you are using pirated stuff. Loss of face. Gees too bad.

Grow up China. Learn to have more control by letting go. Stop worrying about Wikipedia. Let your people buy American.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:31:12 AM , Rating: 2
Wikipedia is probably blocked by their country's government or some BS like that. Wouldn't be surprised.


RE: Nice
By mooncancook on 10/28/2008 3:58:34 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how much MS charges for its software in countries like China, but I believe (just for example) if MS pays 1/5 the American salary for an equivalent position in its China offices, then it'll be fair if they only charge 1/5 the price for their software over there. But even with lowered prices, it's gonna take time for the majority of the Chinese population to get used to the idea that software is not free.


RE: Nice
By Mr Perfect on 10/28/2008 1:29:53 PM , Rating: 2
Windows isn't really a luxury item like those ones are.

This is more like walking into a Hyundai dealership and stealing a sub-$20,000 car because you can't afford it. Or going to K-Mart and shoplifting a Jerseys sweater that's on sale for $20.

It's still theft, but it's not some expensive piece of equipment you don't really need.

Now if they where stealing MacBooks on the other hand... :D


RE: Nice
By exanimas on 10/28/2008 2:23:46 PM , Rating: 5
Windows IS a luxury item. Like another poster said, they could get along just fine with Linux, or OMGZ!, even no computer at all. A Geo Metro will get you to work fine, just like Linux can get you all of the basic uses of a computer fine. If you can't afford Windows (or the Aston Martin, as used in the example above), you use what you can afford, not what you're capable of stealing.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 3:23:45 PM , Rating: 5
But then how would they log into World of Warcraft to farm and sell gold? :)


RE: Nice
By sprockkets on 10/29/2008 2:45:46 AM , Rating: 1
Heh, they could always pirate OSX. No WGA there or keys or any form of protection (except for hardware tie ins, which of course are taken care of).

Quite ironic that just about every part of a computer is now made in China, except the OS, and that is the only part they bitch about as far as price.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 8:45:09 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, majority of computer parts are made in Taiwan. China thinks Taiwan belongs to them, while the rest of the world sees otherwise.


RE: Nice
By sprockkets on 10/29/2008 4:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Read your labels on your motherboard, cd drive, most ram, and cases. They all now say MADE IN CHINA.

Don't believe me? My older Asus board, the nForce 220, was made in Taiwan. How do I know? It says right on the motherboard. My older Pioneer DVD drive, was made in Japan. Same for FSP power supplies.

Today? They all say MADE IN CHINA.

Are you saying that now because of what China thinks, stuff made in Taiwan has to be labeled otherwise?


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 2:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
For the billionth time, you cannot compare intellectual property with physical property. If physical is taken, the owner is deprived of property - in IP no property is lost by the owner.


RE: Nice
By omnicronx on 10/28/2008 2:48:06 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
in IP no property is lost by the owner.
Copyright law would tend to disagree. This is your opinion, it is in no way or form fact. If your statement was true, then why on earth do we have the patent/copyright system?


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 3:27:00 PM , Rating: 1
That isn't fact, eh?

Senario A: Car exists physically, car is taken from owner, owner is deprived of property (car)

Senario B: Software exists intellectually, software is taken from owner (ie copy), owner is not deprived of property as owner still has a copy

You cannot equate physical property on the same level as intellectual property that's like comparing apples to hamburger. That is the only statement I made, in response to Mick's post which tries to do that (wrongly).

I never said it wasn't copyright infringement, I in fact remind people very often that is what it is (when they try to claim it is theft).


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/28/2008 5:48:41 PM , Rating: 3
REVENUE is lost. Get it? MONEY is stolen when you steal intellectual property. Even if it is YET TO BE MADE MONEY, it is in fact, MULA. This is why the system is in place, and this is why piracy is THEFT. The "if I could not have stolen it I would not have bought it" clause is NOT in effect. Sorry, but that just doesn't fly with anyone responsible with ideas being stolen. It's a poor argument created by those who are trying to justify their criminal actions.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 7:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
So, when you deprive someone possible revenue it is the same as stealing? In that case, have you ever played your music loud enough for someone else to hear? In that case you are a criminal because that was potential revenue for the record industry. Pay up criminal. Ever sang along to a song? View a movie with more than a few people in the room? Copied or quoted lines out of a publication or book? Pay up criminal. You are stealing potential revenue from the IP holder.


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:29:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So, when you deprive someone possible revenue it is the same as stealing?

Yes, this is especially true in modern day economy as we've migrated to a service based industry from a manufacturing based industry. Anymore, theft does not have to be the possession of a physical item.

If you don't want to call it "stealing", then fine by me. But illegally blocking someones revenue while still obtaining that service without paying deserves harsh justice.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 10:20:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
22-30A-1. Theft--Violation. Any person who takes, or exercises unauthorized control over, property of another, with intent to deprive that person of the property , is guilty of theft.

It is not theft. It is copyright infringement as we have both said. I never said it was right or wrong, only you can't compare physical and intellectual property because both are treated differently and have different laws that applies to them.

And by your logic if owned a company that makes wrenches and you own a company that makes wrenches, and if someone buys my product instead of yours I am a criminal because I stole potential revenue from you. That is just ludicrous and insane.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:19:20 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And by your logic if owned a company that makes wrenches and you own a company that makes wrenches, and if someone buys my product instead of yours I am a criminal because I stole potential revenue from you. That is just ludicrous and insane.


If you reversed engineered the wrenches from the other person's wrenches and started mass production and selling them, then yes. You are a criminal because you stole their potential revenue from them.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:25:47 AM , Rating: 2
That analogy is broken. Someone profited from an honest transaction, and the party who didn't lost nothing. With copyright violation, no one profits, and revenue is denied to the victim as well as to any of his potential competitors.

Obviously isn't not %100 the same as stealing, but when your business is creating and selling software, if people take a copy without remunerating you it harms your business, in a way the law agrees is illegal. It's sophistry to try to explain it away by saying the vendor still has his copy.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 5:43:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is not theft. It is copyright infringement as we have both said.


PUBLIC LAW 105-147 [H.R. 2265]
No Electronic Theft Act

Seems the US Government feels that copyright infringement is theft. I'll go with Federal Law over State Laws.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/29/2008 7:40:07 AM , Rating: 1
Firstly, I would like to point out in your 'NET' act, there is no defination of theft in there. The only time the word 'theft' is used is in the title and bills can be named anything. It is not like the Patriot Act, Clear Skys Act, or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act do what they actually say in the title, nor is the title used in court. Why do you think there is a McCain Feinstein Bill, titles can be named anything. They chose to put theft into NET because theft fits in an acronym for NET.

Theft is not mentioned in NET once in text of the law because theft is defined in the US and common law as..

quote:
22-30A-1. Theft--Violation. Any person who takes, or exercises unauthorized control over, property of another, with intent to deprive that person of the property, is guilty of theft.


The bolded portion is not only speaking to mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea) but also the status in which is required of theft. If one cannot deprive a person of property one cannot have the mental capacity to have the intent to do so. As stated before, it is not theft.

It is a copyright violation, which you have decided to copy and paste one of many US Federal laws on Copyrights. In fact, not even the RIAA or MPAA that is going around suing people would want this to fall under the legal defination of theft (the one that actually matters), this is because copyright violations (as you define as IP 'theft') have harsher punishments than every day theft.

If you were to walk into the store and shoplift the same software that someone is pirating, the amount of jail time you are actually going to receive and the maximum fine are far more severe under copyright violation than under petty theft. In my day to day work, I have seen such petty theft pay back the value of the goods taken and receive probation. Where as in most copyright cases they may be sent to federal prison for up to a year AND have to pay a fine near 300x the value of the IP.


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 10:28:45 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

Theft includes tresspassing. If you want to follow wiki. That would of course have Trespass to Chattels.

Kremen v. Cohen. Cohen stole Kremen's domain name sex.com. An object that you cannot hold physically, see physically, etc. He used Trespass to Chattels to get it back. He tried conversion, but that failed as domain name isn't a tangible property.

Things get funky at the Federal level.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:09:20 PM , Rating: 2
That's called competition. However, if I patent a new wrench and you copy my wrench and try to earn revenue off of it then you have stolen my revenue. The patent system was designed to give intellectual rights to individuals and companies. It's pretty clear and concise, I'm not sure why China and half of America are having issues with this. Patents expire after a set time, and then you can sell all the wrenches you want. Until then, it was my idea and I deserve credit for my sitting down and doing the work of figuring out how to make it work.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:05:43 PM , Rating: 2
Viewing or listening together is what the music was intended for. Making copies of it so that you can listen to it when you're on different continents is NOT what it is intended for. I think it's pretty clear cut. Ownership is not defined by how it is projected but by how it is stored.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 2:58:34 PM , Rating: 4
So then by your justification, the following scenario is ok:

You've just performed a service for someone that you expected to get paid for(let's say you've fixed someone's computer system). If they decide that they won't pay you after you've done the work, then that's perfectly fine because you're not deprived of any physical property.

:rollseyes:


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 3:28:09 PM , Rating: 2
Never said it was a justification, just pointing out you cannot put IP and PP on the same level and compare them. I made no assertion that it is right or wrong to copy software.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/28/2008 5:51:42 PM , Rating: 1
You're wrong. You CAN put them on the same level because ideas = money.

I have an idea, you take credit for it and get that promotion and a nice $30 a year bump in salary. Tell me again how that isn't stealing from me? You just took my f'n salary bump you mother f'n stealing bastard. Get a clue kid, intellectual property is more safe guarded at corporations than physical property is. One idea is worth a million staplers and paper clips.


RE: Nice
By NullSubroutine on 10/28/2008 7:37:18 PM , Rating: 3
You can steal potential money?


RE: Nice
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:30:47 PM , Rating: 2
In a sense, yes. That is the vast difference of a modern day service based economy, as opposed to a manufacturing based economy. The lack of "physical" items.


RE: Nice
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:26:48 AM , Rating: 2
Welcome to the information age, you'll find your clue in your welcome basket.


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:12:03 PM , Rating: 2
+1.


RE: Nice
By killerb255 on 10/29/2008 3:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think the problem here is that our society's definition of "stealing" relating to tangible, physical property is so entrenched in our minds that the concept of stealing "intangible" or intellectual property is foreign.

How about a compromise? Let's call it "clealing"? :) A portmanteau of "stealing" and "cloning."

If there were a such thing as clone rays, and we cloned a Mercedes-Benz from a dealer's lot and drove off with the clone, would that even registered on the "wrong" meter of one's ethical radar? By society's entrenched definition of stealing, not really. By today's information age, absolutely!

So from now on, downloaded commercial mp3s, ROMs, warez, etc. that fall outside of exceptions such as "owning the original copy" or whatever else people justify such things with shall be called "clolen" goods. :)


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't really like this is a new concept. If someone had made a mockery of the Egyptian Pyramids by making exact copies of them in a neighboring region back in their day of creation, I imagine the Kings would have been outraged. Not only because it's a sacrilege to their Godliness, but because darnit, they designed that pyramid to be bigger and better than anyone elses. How dare you!


RE: Nice
By JonnyDough on 10/29/2008 8:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not quite sure how you got rated up and I got rated down except that I used an abbreviation of a curse and someone obviously took offense to that. But I imagine they would be using those words if someone came along and said that the work you did was theirs, and then took your paycheck.

Just because the money is not in your hand yet does not mean you don't have it coming to you for the work you've done. If you have done work, then via contract you have earned something. Just because it is not physically in your hand yet or bank account does not mean you do not own that money. Businesses operate under the accounting assumption of money they have yet to receive. If you study business contract law and accounting principles in school, you will understand so much more about debits and credits and how a business operates. This is why they keep books, and have so many accountants. Because at any given time managers need to know exactly what they can afford and when they will be able to do things under the constraints of a budget.

Just because it isn't physical labor does not mean it is not labor. The highest paying jobs are the ones you go to college for so you don't have to do manual labor. Thinking is WORK, because it is the thought that goes into the manual labor that makes a corporation revenue. College does not only give you a knowledge base to do a job, but it teaches you how to go about doing that job. College often teaches students discipline and thought processing. It isn't just about your final conclusion, but the steps involved in getting to it that are important. There is an efficient and moralistic way to achieve an answer, and there is an uneducated and immoral way to often arrive at the same place. In court, HOW you do something is just as important as WHAT you did. At least, it usually is, it depends on the case and those present and residing. No system or human judge is perfect.


RE: Nice
By Spuke on 10/28/2008 3:39:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
then that's perfectly fine because you're not deprived of any physical property.
Sigh. The poster didn't say it wasn't illegal, he said the owner is not deprived of property when intellectual property is "stolen". Doesn't mean it's not illegal, just means he still possesses the property.

Example: If you download a music CD from the internet illegally, does the owner of that CD lose possession of ALL of his CD's? Nope. Does he even lose possession of that one CD? Nope. He still has an infinite amount of copies of that CD.


RE: Nice
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 7:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
True but you are in a sense stealing a copy of software. It may not be physical, but you are copying and taking something unauthorized by its owner.

I understand what the orignal poster is saying and what your saying.


RE: Nice
By rdeegvainl on 10/28/2008 10:11:39 PM , Rating: 2
You're not stealing a copy. You are breaking the copyright. You know, the thing that says who has a right to copy. Both illegal, but DIFFERENT, and rightfully treated different.


RE: Nice
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 10:25:04 PM , Rating: 2
I know that. What I'm saying is that you are making and taking an unauthorized copy of software.


RE: Nice
By rdeegvainl on 10/28/2008 10:27:47 PM , Rating: 2
agreed :)


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 6:10:24 AM , Rating: 2
Legal definitions and regular definitions are two different things. Under legal terms, reproduction of someone else's intellectual property is theft/stealing and copyright infrigement.

US Federal Laws says copyright infrigement is stealing. Criminal Code of Canada does the same. I'm sure multiple Euro countries do the same.


RE: Nice
By DeuceHalo on 10/28/2008 3:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
You have to remember to sue them if they attempt to block your theft though.


RE: Nice
By Beno on 10/28/2008 3:33:18 PM , Rating: 2
dont be stupid!
thats not a car or a jacket or plasma tv

this is a peice of software. they dont see software much valuable.


RE: Nice
By marvdmartian on 10/28/2008 4:02:23 PM , Rating: 2
How DARE they mess with my computer with the pirated operating system!!! Nevermind that if no one bought these pirated OS's the market would dry up and no one would pirate them again........you should go after the pirates!!

Chinese people just got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and don't have any problem with blaming Microsoft for it. Don't blame us, we didn't make the cookies, darn it!!


RE: Nice
By Cypherdude1 on 10/29/2008 4:13:21 AM , Rating: 2
Would you happen to have a brown leather bomber jacket in there somewhere? I'm looking for one at a reduced price. The ones they have in the store are too expensive.

B ^D
quote:
"Walks into a Banana Republic store* "$200 for a sweater? $300 for a jacket? Outrageous! These prices are WAY too high for the market. Looks like I'm just going to have to steal all of these..."


RE: Nice
By subhajit on 10/29/2008 7:42:08 AM , Rating: 1
There are alternatives to a Aston Martin or a Plasma TV but there is no viable alternative to Windows.
  You cannot lower the prices of a high end hardware product to a great extent because of material costs. But there is scope for lowering prices of a software product and perhaps increasing the sales number. Software products only has very small recurring costs.
  I am from India. Price of a copy of windows is too high for most average middle class person. But personal computer is a necessity now-a-days, even in the developing nations.
  Not to mention the hardware prices, which are at least 1.5 times that of US.
Please don't get me wrong. I am not for a moment supporting piracy. I think a solution can be reached in the following ways.

- I like the idea of a Starter edition of Windows but it
  has two big problems:
  1. It restricts some of the basic OS features.
  2. Lack of awareness. Microsoft spends so much   money on
  advertisements which are relevant for enterprises
  only. Why not something which will sell it to the home
  user. Sell it like any other commodity.

- Open Source: A Linux distribution that can truly be a
  replacement for Windows. Probably some amount of govt.
  backing is required

- Sell old OS at bargain price. Windows XP in year 2009 for Rs.
  500


RE: Nice
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 11:09:21 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
There are alternatives to a Aston Martin or a Plasma TV but there is no viable alternative to Windows.


Linux or OSX. Sounds like a viable alternative to me.

quote:
I am from India. Price of a copy of windows is too high for most average middle class person. But personal computer is a necessity now-a-days, even in the developing nations.


Explain how it is a necessity? Does every single average middle class person in India own a computer? I bet you'll answer, No.

quote:
Not to mention the hardware prices, which are at least 1.5 times that of US.


Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop - $700 USD in India
Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop - $700 USD in US

Went to the Dell India site and the Dell US site.

quote:
- I like the idea of a Starter edition of Windows but it
has two big problems:
1. It restricts some of the basic OS features.
2. Lack of awareness. Microsoft spends so much money on
advertisements which are relevant for enterprises
only. Why not something which will sell it to the home
user. Sell it like any other commodity.


1. The crap Windows Starter Edition doesn't restrict basic OS features. It takes away the advance features. The only thing I'd say it does is limits the Starter Edition to low end hardware and disallows you to use more than 3 programs at once. But if you have crap hardware anyways, I wouldn't use more than 3 programs at once.

2. Windows XP Home, Windows Vista Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, and Ultimate. Microsoft is definitely geared to home users.

quote:
- Open Source: A Linux distribution that can truly be a
replacement for Windows. Probably some amount of govt.
backing is required


Have you looked at any Linux distros? Linspire and Suse are fairly good. They hardly need any government backing.

quote:
- Sell old OS at bargain price. Windows XP in year 2009 for Rs.
500


Ya...okay. Keep dreaming on that one. An OS isn't like a piece of hardware that gets easily outdated within a year or two. Anyways, Windows XP Home is close to 1/3 the price of what it was released at. Windows XP Pro is 1/2 the price.


screw them
By TechIsGr8 on 10/28/2008 12:03:21 PM , Rating: 5
Screw the chinese... they've poisoned our pets with tainted dog food, poisoned our elderly with tainted heparin, poisoned our children with toxins in toys, poisoned babies with melamine in milk, poisoned villagers with tainted drinking water, and have gutted American-based manufacturing. A real bloody shame that they can't continue to steal Microsoft software.




RE: screw them
By FITCamaro on 10/28/2008 12:37:04 PM , Rating: 3
Politicians and unions are far more to blame for American manufacturing going overseas than China. If we didn't have a 38% corporate tax and unions getting mid-level engineer salaries and massive benefits for jobs that require a 3rd grade education, there'd be a lot more manufacturing jobs here. Not to mention over the top environmental regulations. It costs so much money just to start building a factory here it isn't even funny.


RE: screw them
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 1:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
I was with you Fit until you mentioned over the top environmental regulations. I can only assume you anti-environment stance come from ignorance of what industry run amuck can really do.

I was as ignorant as you at one point then my job took me to many countries and I saw exactly what unregulated polluting can do. China will feel the full impact before too long. It won't be pretty.

Anyways - yeah I agree that greedy American CEOs and politicians did more damage to the US than the Chinese ever did.


RE: screw them
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:26:28 PM , Rating: 2
I agree too having seen and been part of the transitions ;_;


RE: screw them
By FITCamaro on 10/28/2008 6:33:00 PM , Rating: 3
I didn't say industry should be completely unregulated. I said that it should not take years and millions of dollars in bogus environmental impact studies to open a factory. Nor should environmentalists be able to keep such projects locked up in court suing because they think it'll kill the environment.


RE: screw them
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:34:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I was as ignorant as you at one point then my job took me to many countries and I saw exactly what unregulated polluting can do.

If people, like you, were this concerned with the vast unproven theories of environmentalist regulation back during the manufacturing booms, you wouldn't even have a job today. Its those industries of the past that have taken this country to a whole new level, and provided the current people with the standard of living above everyone else. Only here can people claim they are poor and hate corporate America all while having a color tv, microwave, cell phone, and automobile for transportation.


RE: screw them
By Grast on 10/28/2008 1:50:12 PM , Rating: 2
Here here, and I whole heartly agree.


RE: screw them
By jrb531 on 10/28/2008 3:20:43 PM , Rating: 2
Has nothing to do with being able to polute, hire people at slave wages and make them work 12+ hours a day does it?

When big business does not like the rules they leave the country. Now we also take the blame because we want to pay Walmart prices but expect the Walmarts to pay people living wages.

You can't have it both ways. You want cheap stuff but want to be paid well?

Years ago Americans had a choice. We could elect to pay more for locally make goods and ensure that Americans were able to produce the items making a living wage.

Nope... we want "our" pay to be high but we want to buy cheap stuff thus others will be paid next to nothing.

This works very well until you lose your job and it's shipped overseas.

Tarifs are the only way to go. You charge a tax on imports that makes the cost of producing the item the same no matter what country makes it. This was you compete on quality of produce and not allowing some countries to be cheaper because they do not care about their own people.

I'm not talking about punitive taxes on imports but leveling the playing field. It should cost China the same to produce an item as it does in the US. This way we compete for quality. If China wants to pay their workers 50 cents an hours and we have to pay $10 a hour then we tack on a tax to make the "cost to produce" the same.

I don't want punitive taxes like some contries do that make it cost more to buy foreign products but just level the playing field.


RE: screw them
By foolsgambit11 on 10/28/2008 3:23:08 PM , Rating: 2
I challenge you're insinuation of a 38% corporate tax rate.

The marginal tax on corporate profits between 15 and 18.3 million dollars is 38%. If the corporation makes more than $18.3 million, their tax rate is 35%. If the corporation makes less than $18.3 million dollars, their cumulative tax rate will be less than 35%. For instance, assuming the corporation has no additional tax breaks to lower their rate, a corporation that makes $335,000 will pay $113,900 in taxes. At 35%, they would pay $117,250. And that's the highest real tax rate in the tax code until you have profits of over $15 million. But at no point will your overall tax rate exceed 35%. Assuming you even get taxed on all of your profits. There are plenty of ways to exempt part of your profits.

And remember, this isn't like income tax. Individuals get taxed on their income. Corporations get taxed on their profits (essentially. They can deduct all working expenses.)

I'm not saying 35% is competitive. But we should at least have the facts straight here.

Additionally, on the point of unions, I disagree with you colorization of union jobs as for those with a 3rd-grade education. I don't remember learning TIG welding Mrs. Jones' class. Union jobs don't require a lot of education, necessarily, but they do require training. They are skilled labor jobs (well, I don't know about some of the service unions, but the industrial unions are). They are jobs that take time and practice to get good at. That's the reason industrial jobs were early to unionize. The workers had skills that kept them from being easily replaceable. Every time a renegotiation of the union contract comes up, the corporation could just go non-union. But they do the math, and they pay what the union workers are worth to them, factoring in new hire training, down time, &c. And we keep some high-quality jobs here in the States.

So we lose some jobs to globalization, and we keep some good jobs. Without collective bargaining, we'd keep more jobs, probably, but the jobs would become 'bad' jobs, no better than fast food. Maybe worse when you figure in the risks involved in factory work.

You want to take a huge burden off of corporations? Nationalize health care. A major drain on revenues in providing health care for current and retired workers would be gone. It would make U.S. corporations that actually operate in the U.S. much more competitive.


RE: screw them
By FITCamaro on 10/28/2008 6:42:38 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry. I got it wrong by 3%. It's still way too high. We are pricing ourselves out of the market.

And yes, there are some union jobs that are skilled. I am mainly talking about the autoworkers unions where people are paid $50-80,000 a year to push a bottom or operate a forklift. I am at a conference right now and talking to people at lunch, they all agreed that unions for the most part have largely outlived their usefulness and only seek to exploit employers. One guy told me about how an engineering union complained when their employer wanted to stop offering free health care. In the end, they got free health care but have to pay a $75 co-pay. It'd be better for them if they just paid for health care since they'd likely have a $20 co-pay.

And sure nationalizing health care is a great idea. Then instead of sending the money to the health care industry we can send it into the hands of the government! So they choose whether or not you need treatment. They decide how the money is spent. I mean it's worked great for things like Social Security right? And not only that but then we can all for everyone else's treatment! Yay! I get to pay even more taxes so that people get even more free sh*t! I'm a young healthy guy. Why should I pay so that some other sick person gets treatment? I sympathize with them that they're sick, but they're not my responsibility. Nor are they the governments.


RE: screw them
By mdogs444 on 10/28/2008 8:37:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sorry. I got it wrong by 3%. It's still way too high. We are pricing ourselves out of the market.

Exactly. The second highest corporate tax rate in the world, and the left wonders why companies are moving their operations overseas. Companies operate for profit, and when your wages are higher than anywhere else, along with taxation, that means your products will be priced out of the market. The only solution is to lower costs.

Something the "redistributors" just cannot comprehend.


RE: screw them
By foolsgambit11 on 10/28/2008 9:02:11 PM , Rating: 2
A $20 copay? But they'd be paying for their health care. Which would cost a couple thousand a year, most likely. Or a $75 copay, but save thousands in health care dues (but also probably not get paid as much in wages). Wherever they're working, they've got great health care coverage. I'm going to guess that guy had some numbers wrong in that story.

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate about Social Security, but the problem with Social Security isn't how it's operated. Total costs of Social Security are about 1% of benefits payments. Most private insurance overheads are an order of magnitude greater. The problem with Social Security is that Americans just won't die, and they won't save for themselves.

Not only that, but you're ignoring the fact that we have lots of examples of functioning national health care systems around the world. You would pay more taxes, but pay less for health care. It would probably better than balance, since nationalized health care seems to reduce overall health care costs.


RE: screw them
By akugami on 10/28/2008 1:28:01 PM , Rating: 2
American companies have done just as bad and worse. The Chinese officials and most people in China did not want this to happen. Good regulation is what stopped most of these crimes by manufacturers and unscrupulous businessmen in America.

China does need to get it's act together in better regulating its industries but it's not like they are not trying. Heck, a highly placed official was executed for letting tainted products go to market last year I believe. And contrary to what you may believe, there are rules and regulations in place.

Let's not castrate all of China and the Chinese for the acts of a few corrupt individuals. It's like hating all Germans for the act of Hitler when history has proven there were kind and caring Germans who helped Jews.


RE: screw them
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:29:27 AM , Rating: 2
But not nearly enough. Too many turned a blind eye. At the same time, that's in the past and can't be held against the current generation (barring any who would like to see it happen again of course, though such people aren't limited to Germany)


Good for Microsoft
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 11:36:26 AM , Rating: 3
While I do agree Windows products in general are rather expensive people who are stealing the products really have no right to be upset when they get called on it.

Also you do have to accept the install for the anti-piracy software. I mean come on - how dumb do you have to be to install the software when you are obviously stealing your copy of Windows?




RE: Good for Microsoft
By chmilz on 10/28/2008 11:41:12 AM , Rating: 2
I tried explaining that to my mom after I built her last machine. I even left a sticky note on the monitor. Sheesh.


RE: Good for Microsoft
By rhangman on 10/28/2008 11:43:13 AM , Rating: 2
Might force higher Vista adoption over there since the Grub loaded OEM hacked version should never fail a WGA check since that would also mean legit OEM copies would also fail. No more sales for MS though. You would have to wonder which they would prefer; pirate copies of an OS that they wanted to discontinue or pirate copies of their current OS?


RE: Good for Microsoft
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:24:03 PM , Rating: 2
Companies will hurt more in less time than MS would in losing money over what they're doing to protect their software. One person pointed out that there are only those individuals and companies that break the rules and regulation and they are the ones to be punish, but there's an awful lot of them out there.

If MS don't break and keep at it, China will eventually have to improve what is already in place or enact something else. Companies can't really afford to be shut down, even for a day...well unless you're GM, Crysler or Ford :D j/k Here's another point of view to discuss and disect.

Even if some Chinese companies were to stop production due to not having PC's do get the job done, most (imo) abroad companies would not care one way or another if the company continues to use pirated software. I'm saying this because in one of my field of expertise, Quality is not a big thing with most of them. And those that do care take a pro-active approach to ensure their product is quality ensured to some degree. These companies would be mainly concern about getting their products on time no matter the cost and upping their revenues :)


RE: Good for Microsoft
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 7:28:56 PM , Rating: 2
Ya but you have to remember that if I'm not mistaken all that is turning black is the desktop wallpaper not the whole screen turning black so I don't see how they would be shutdown by a black wallpaper screen.


RE: Good for Microsoft
By MrDiSante on 10/28/2008 12:15:53 PM , Rating: 3
There have traditionally been two ways that companies have used of combatting piracy on top of going after the commercial distributors of pirated material:

1) Taking legal action against the end-user (a la RIAA/MPAA)
2) Making using pirated goods hard to use (a la Microsoft/other software companies).

This is no different from the standard approach of making pirated software hard to install, hard to use and hard to update. They might as well complain about the unfairness of needing to activate Windows and all that jazz.

On top of that: you PIRATED software. You did not pay for it. Microsoft made your desktop background black. Oh no. How horrible. It's going to cost me billions in dollars of lost productivity/psychological damage. Stop crying about it - the only thing they did is changed your desktop.


RE: Good for Microsoft
By VaultDweller on 10/28/2008 12:41:35 PM , Rating: 2
In many cases, they aren't "obviously stealing" their copy of Windows. It came installed on their computer, or they bought it in a store, in a box complete with Microsoft branded packaging. They don't know it's counterfeit. The store they bought it from might not even know.


RE: Good for Microsoft
By Jimbo1234 on 10/28/2008 1:38:39 PM , Rating: 2
Well then the end user should be upset with the vendor, not MS, and get their money back from that vendor for installing pirated software on the computer. Maybe the Chinese government should get to work on regulating that instead of the great firewall.


RE: Good for Microsoft
By Grast on 10/28/2008 1:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
If you knowingly or unknowningly buy stolen goods, you are still buying stolen goods and can be fined and/or cited. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I realise we are talking about a socialist/communist/dictator country. But the same rule applied. Ignorance does not mean innocient.

Later..


RE: Good for Microsoft
By foolsgambit11 on 10/28/2008 2:42:43 PM , Rating: 2
I think you've got that a little off. If you unknowingly buy stolen goods, you can be forced to return the goods, but if it was sold like it was legitimate (not like buying a Rolex froma guy in a trenchcoat), then you usually aren't going to be subject to legal entanglements. In other words, it's only illegal if you know or should have known (using a reasonable person standard) that the goods were stolen.

And you're misusing the 'ignorance does not mean innocence' saying. The meaning of the saying is that not knowing that a class of actions is illegal doesn't mean you are free from legal culpability. That is, it applies when you don't know what the law is, not when you didn't realize you were breaking a law.

So, for instance, if you didn't know you were required by law to declare capital gains on your taxes, you'd still be guilty. That's an appropriate use of the saying.

But if you knew buying stolen goods was illegal, but bought stolen goods because you didn't realize they were stolen, that's a different situation. A situation not addressed by the saying.


Wow
By dflynchimp on 10/28/2008 12:13:46 PM , Rating: 5
As a fellow yellow skin, I'm ashamed. This is beyond ridiculous. They intend to sue Microsoft for not letting them pirate software? I don't like DRM, the MPAA or RIAA but I don't wave that as an excuse to go pirating games/movies. If I pirate a game and get called on it I'd admit that I broke the law. Suing a company for not letting you steal from them is just wrong in every strain of logic.




RE: Wow
By mooncancook on 10/28/2008 4:31:49 PM , Rating: 2
Give the Chinese government a break. MS's anti-piracy move has some unpleasant side effects. It's crippling the normal functioning of the Chinese government. All their government employees now suddenly see a black desktop and they are shutting down all their computers coz they think they are getting a large scale virus attack.


RE: Wow
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:36:59 AM , Rating: 2
That's easy to fix. New law: all government employees must have a solid black desktop background


RE: Wow
By AnnihilatorX on 10/28/2008 4:37:58 PM , Rating: 2
I think artificially keeping price high abusing stance of monopoly is suable.
For anti-piracy practice it's not.


Amusing and disturbing.
By Motoman on 10/28/2008 12:12:20 PM , Rating: 2
First of all, I think Microsoft's products are vastly overpriced for any market...not just China.

Having said that, anyone using pirated software (Chinese or not), really has little basis to complain when something doesn't work out the way they expect it to.

However...it occurs to me that a couple things are borne out in this situation...firstly, people will choose to use illegal copies of Windows (that they probably paid *something* for on the street corners of Chinese towns) instead of legally using a free version of Linux. Seems rather intersting to me. Especially since it seems sort of ideologically more consistent with Chinese socialism to use an open-source, nobody-really-owns-it product rather than a proprietary owned-by-a-monopolist product. What does that say about the utility of Linux...and the monopoly of Windows?

Personally, I'd love to see the Chinese government say "you know, youse guys are right...we shouldn't be using priated copies of Windows. Therefore, all Chinese will remove Windows from their computers and switch to Linux across the board." They could just do that. In theory, anyway...imagine the developmental boost that would give to commercial-quality Linux stuff. All of China required to use Linux...that's quite a market.

Probably a pipe dream though. Linux needs a massive boost of something like that to really make any progress though. Otherwise people will forever prefer to pay for illegal copies of Windows rather than use free versions of Linux.




RE: Amusing and disturbing.
By Krotchrot on 10/28/2008 1:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
And what makes you think they would pay for these commercial quality linux apps?


RE: Amusing and disturbing.
By iFX on 10/28/2008 1:11:05 PM , Rating: 2
*Hint* They wouldn't. Linux people find this hard to accept but people just don't want it.


RE: Amusing and disturbing.
By Krotchrot on 10/28/2008 1:24:58 PM , Rating: 2
Haha. True. I mean, if you can't GIVE something away, how good could it be?


RE: Amusing and disturbing.
By Motoman on 10/28/2008 1:56:45 PM , Rating: 2
Don't know.

Linux can succeed in one of 2 ways.

1. More and more open-source development of better and better applications and games that everyone in the world can have for free, like Linux itself.

2. Commercial software companies providing their commercial apps and games on Linux for retail sale...and then people actually buying it.

#1 seems like a stretch because, well, there's only so many altruistic coders in the world willing to slave away day after day for no pay.

#2 seems like a stretch because, well, Linux is free...so why would I pay for applications to use on my free OS? If I wanted to pay for stuff I may as well use Windows which already has everything I could ever possibly want available for it. #2 also is unlikely because in order to incent big software companies to make retail software for Linux, it would first have to have a good marketshare. Which it's not likely to get...especially without good commercial-quality apps and games.


Free software!
By Chaser on 10/28/2008 12:18:15 PM , Rating: 2
As someone that's lived and traveled throughout the Far East paying for any software is rare at best. Everything in Hong Kong, Singapore and Seoul be found at any convenient corner market arranged on a table of with rows of DVDs. Often the DVDs have a little front end gui that lists all the apps you can install, from Office to Norton.

Paying for software? Ridiculous. But whats surprising is that Microsoft's tool is working and a Chinese cracker hasn't come up with a work around. As it stands a lot of PCs aren't working in China now and they are insulted.

I wonder if they like the "I'm a PC" commercials?




RE: Free software!
By The0ne on 10/28/08, Rating: 0
RE: Free software!
By Yongsta on 10/28/2008 2:47:20 PM , Rating: 2
Hong Kong and Singapore maybe, but Seoul? I don't think so. Have you ever been to Seoul?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=606...


RE: Free software!
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:11:52 PM , Rating: 2
No, just mainly China due to businesses. I tell you, I've walked (8-10 hours) and cover a lot of grounds on the weekends and some of the "hidden" markets have got to be seen to believe. But then it isn't just software that's being pirated. Most products are. There's a Wii type console being marketed in magazines :) I forgot what it's called but something like Zii...shrug. The PS3 type console was also advertised haha. This would never survive here in the US if someone actually advertised the copied product in a distributed magazine.


RE: Free software!
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:14:51 PM , Rating: 2
Some nice pictures there. I wish I could take good photos but I can't. Shame because I have so many but only a few good ones.


RE: Free software!
By tedrodai on 10/29/2008 11:13:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As it stands a lot of PCs aren't working in China now and they are insulted.


I don't understand where this idea is coming from. Did this article leave out something important about the effects of this anti-piracy measure, or does a black background really befuddle users so much that they can no longer use their computers?


Counterfeit goods
By chmilz on 10/28/2008 11:35:34 AM , Rating: 2
The MPAA/RIAA should just sue all of China and cash out.




RE: Counterfeit goods
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 11:38:25 AM , Rating: 3
Indeed. They could also go from flee market to flee market in my state and make a killing. Every one has a asian group selling thousands of bootleg movies. I don't know how they get away with it.


RE: Counterfeit goods
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:33:08 AM , Rating: 2
You know why they call them "flee markets?" Because when the cops roll up, everyone flees!

..except that they're "flea markets"


RE: Counterfeit goods
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:35:02 AM , Rating: 2
.. and me being a spelling nazi in the above post is officially a little ironic given my next reply to one of your comments :(


This article has valid points.
By TheRequiem on 10/28/2008 2:04:47 PM , Rating: 2
As a member in production business and a frequent traveler to just about everywhere in China... I have to agree with one important fact that most people are passing up here. The fact that Microsoft's products cost the same in China as they do in America is an important and valid point to make.

China's PC users are growing at an exponential rate and have already surpassed that of the U.S.'s. I am very familiar with the Chinese and their ways as well as how they do business. The important thing to realize is China is a different market and is unlike any other in the world. Not to mention the largest population where 80% of it's people barely make enough for standard Chinese living. However, China has embraced technology with their simple daily lives. With Chinese markets however, nothing goes into China without changing some form of itself in order to adapt to this market, whether it be lower prices and margins or style changes.

I firmly believe that Microsoft needs to lower it's prices if it really wants a strong position in the Chinese market and to not be pirated. You can currently go into major Chinese Computer Outlets and buy good quality PC Products (they manufacture a lot of top of the line PC Products and sell their for cheaper) for pennies on the dollar, then they turn around and are faced with a expensive Windows which costs almost as much as their unit does while the guy at the booth 20 meters away is claiming he has it for a cheaper price. This is why they do not embrace the software like we do.

Microsoft has the potential to EXPLODE in the Chinese market, with about 900 million potential users in the next 20 years... the logical thing to do is not be as head-heavy and lower their prices. This would increase it's legit user base by millions. The Chinese don't simply think of it as stealing the software, they just need a PC that will run and be compatible and can't always afford what we can. Lowering the price and the Chinese will embrace a legit version of the software that works properly any day over a slimmed down version and have a back-up disk and etc...




RE: This article has valid points.
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
While I don't disagree here are other examples of products that should have their prices adjusted for the "poor."

-meals
-retails items (clothes, shoes, watches, walmart items there, etc)
-cars
-hotels
-and many more

The reason I bring this up is that most of these items are just a tad less than and sometimes even more than what we pay for here in the US. How can a typical factory worker making 500 Yuan per month (a bit less than $100) be able to eat out when dishes are around 15-30 yuan each. And I'm being generous. Lobsters and crabs are more expensive than here.

I don't ever want to have friends I've made there pay for our meals, as best as I can try. It's just so unfair when you think about it.


RE: This article has valid points.
By 325hhee on 10/28/2008 5:01:01 PM , Rating: 2
Funny how things turn, people are so quick to bash MS, but when it comes to China, people are so quick to defend MS.

Anyway, another problem that hasn't been mentioned is the buyers. Some buyers don't know what they're buying, and yes, not everybody is a thief in China, not everybody buys pirated goods there either. It's the same exact thing here in the US, people are always looking for a bargin, and sometimes you go to a store and just buy stuff. Not everybody shops at a Best Buy or a Circuit City.

Some goes to the local electronic store run by John Smith. You will hope the stuff you're buying are authentic because he has the authorized Sony plaque behind him, but who knows, it could be a fake.

And lets take another look at the buyers in China, it's only now they are starting to have a middle class, and it's only now, that the Chinese public can afford to buy a computer. They really don't know what they're buying, the blame should be on the store owner or operators. They could tell their customers they're buying a legit copy, with a fake hologram authentic sticker, the buyer wouldn't know. Hell, there are so many fake Gucci hand bags out there, even the Gucci people couldn't tell the difference, it's a proven fact.

The buyers are not to blame, they're uninformed, the owners and sellers are to blame. It's like if you work for Mobile, or Shell, are you going to blame the workers for the so called oil crisis and jack up in costs of fuel? No, it's the owners and it's operation staff faking the supposed fuel crisis that jacked up the gas this past summer, and look at the barrels now, from $150 to $64, there was no crisis, and those oil companies all profited $30 BILLION Dollars, so do you blame the workers for that? They worked for them, they should be a fault too, shouldn't they? Of course not. Neither should the consumers, why else do Wallmarts flourish in the US, we're ALL looking for a bargin.


RE: This article has valid points.
By Noliving on 10/28/2008 10:22:28 PM , Rating: 2
But there is a difference, the vast majority of MS products sold in the US are legit and pirated copies, in china I'm willing to bet more then half of MS windows copies are pirated. Your right in that everybody is looking for a bargain just that in the US those bargains are generally legit, like for example OEM versions about half as much as a retail license.

Here is something to take a look at. When the buyer finds out they bought a pirated copy whether it be known or unknown, they have no buisness complaining to microsoft who is letting them know through a black background along with text that they have a pirated copy and here is where it gets even better Microsoft is even allowing them to use the full product except windows updates once it determines your copy is not geniune. I mean for godsakes with vista for longest time they disable certain features if you didn't have a legit copy. Why are the buyers complaining to microsoft instead of complaining to the seller who sold them in a sense a fake product? Microsoft is not to blame, if anything Microsoft should be praised actually for allowing the user full access to the OS except for updates once its determined its not legit software. I mean seriously this is a company that is allowing you to use their product even though they know its pirated.

The only thing you can fault microsoft for is having the price set to high.

Ah for the oil crises you do realize demand has droped by atleast 10% along with the fact that it was speculators who caused the oil prices to sky rocket, not the oil company owners. Not to mention the fact that if you take those oil profits and compare it their operating costs that is nothing. If you take those companies operating costs they spent nearly 300 billion to 500 billion dollars in operating costs. Oil companies only make about $.085 off of every dollar in profit, do you have any idea how ridiculous low that is?


RE: This article has valid points.
By 325hhee on 10/29/2008 10:16:22 AM , Rating: 1
On the topic of profits, most companies consider a good year is about 1 billion dollars, these oil companies profited 30 Billion dollars. That's an extreme considering the prior year their profit was the average 1 billion, so you mean to say, that in a single year, their profits sky rocketed to 30 billions is ok?

That's unheard of, and that just screams, jerking the public, and where was the return? Plus, again, so called crisis. If there were a crisis, how can the company gain 30x more profit. Usually it means they're losing money. Crisis means, they would have to cut costs just to keep a competitive price, but the opposite happened, while the economy is tanking, they're rolling in the dough.

Further more, now that this alleged crisis is over with, where are the returns for the customers. The gas prices went up day by day as the barrels were going up and up, but as the barrel went down, prices are extremely slow to go down. Of recent, the prices of oil was $60ish dollars, yet you still see $3.50 or higher at the station. Explain?


big suprise
By Suntan on 10/28/2008 12:42:34 PM , Rating: 4
And yet I keep getting told that China is going to take over the world any day now...

How can you be expected to become the leader of the world when all you can do is copy and steal other peoples' ideas and technology?

-Suntan




RE: big suprise
By akugami on 10/28/2008 3:34:17 PM , Rating: 2
Easy, the world today is built on copying and stealing other people's ideas. That is a fact. Just ask the western civilizations that profited from ancient Chinese inventions such as gunpowder. Of course, once you reach parity (or as close as possible) with the ones you are copying you need to come up with some inventions of your own to pull ahead.


RE: big suprise
By The0ne on 10/28/2008 4:30:54 PM , Rating: 2
Buy accumulating tons of cash and buying off people and things, establishing ties with other countries for resources for future needs (future tactics imo :P), and so forth. Maybe their thinking is to rise in power quickly and then fix things later...I don't know, just a guess really :D


Fair Trade?
By GTaudiophile on 10/28/2008 1:54:36 PM , Rating: 2
In exchange for M$ giving China Windows for free, China cancels all the debt the USA owes it.

Sound fair?




RE: Fair Trade?
By InvertMe on 10/28/2008 3:48:17 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop using the "M$" reference when talking about Microsoft. You have no idea how stupid it makes you look.

That's all.


RE: Fair Trade?
By MamiyaOtaru on 10/29/2008 5:31:44 AM , Rating: 3
Complaining about people using "M$" is as old and played out as calling them "M$". Try refuting the ideas in his post instead of mitching and boning about a weak joke. You have no idea how stupid it makes you look.

That's all.


Chinese price adjustment
By FishTankX on 10/29/2008 3:43:56 AM , Rating: 2
It strikes me that this situation here is much like the automotive fuel situation in Europe vs. the U.S.

Imagine, if you will, $12/gallon gas and $11/gallon diesel. Rediculous, you say?

Well, imagine if the U.S. Government suddenly decided to implement road tax that would raise gas prices to this level.

Suddenly, you would have alot of very, very peeved people.

You would probably even have people who switch to vegetable oil in their diesel cars and home brewed ethanol in their flex fuel vehicles in order to get around these taxes.

Now, would the American public's outrage at this kind of measure be justified or not? Would measures to skirt roadtaxes be justified or not?

Simply put, Americans CANNOT afford to pay $12/gallon for gas like the europeans can. Our vehicles get lower mileage and the distances we have to cover are greater.

This is why our government taxes fuel significantly less than europe does.

Microsoft should get with the program and lower their prices, to increase their profits.

The way I see this is, if Microsoft would lower their prices, they would increase their profits. They've already done this for Thailand with a stripped down version of windows. Why not China?




RE: Chinese price adjustment
By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 7:07:49 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
It strikes me that this situation here is much like the automotive fuel situation in Europe vs. the U.S.

Imagine, if you will, $12/gallon gas and $11/gallon diesel. Rediculous, you say?

Well, imagine if the U.S. Government suddenly decided to implement road tax that would raise gas prices to this level.

Suddenly, you would have alot of very, very peeved people.


What's this situation you talk about? Last I checked, their prices were in Euro and the ppl were paid in Euro. We are paid in US dollars and we pay for fuel in US dollars.

How about looking at things a bit differently.

Hourly Minimum Wage
US - $6.55 (EUR 5.12)
France - EUR 7.61 ($9.76)
Greece - EUR 25.01 ($32.07)
Ireland - EUR 7.00 ($8.97)
Spain - EUR 16.36 ($20.98)
England - GBP 4.85 (EUR 7.14)($9.15)

If you look at the cost of fuel per gallon for the other countries, they average around 80% of their hourly minimum wage for each gallon of fuel. So to be around the same, our fuel would need to increase to about $5.30 per gallon. Then we need to receive the same incentives that the European countries toss at their citizens from their taxes. Healthcare, education, etc. So if we were to match the Euro scheme, it's all manageable for an American.

Also, no, US Government doesn't tax fuel excessively, because Americans can't afford it. It's because they don't need to. We don't have a Universal Healthcare program. We don't pay for everyone's education from kindergarten to college like some Euro countries.

Also we have a significantly larger population base. 300 mil, compared to Germany with it's 82 mil. Germany has the largest population for Euro countries. The more ppl you have, the less you have to tax them to meet government financial needs.

For Euro cars with higher mpg. Of course, as they lack many of our safety features in their cars that we require. Side impact bars, safety glass, etc.

Emissions are also more lax than US standards. Many Euro cars couldn't sell due to not meeting California or New York emission standards. Those that they do decide to bring over, are detuned to meet the emission standards. So even if it's the same car, they are not the same.


RE: Chinese price adjustment
By FishTankX on 10/29/2008 6:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, first of all, the minimum wage quotes you have for Greece and Spain are DAILY minimum wage quotes.

So, in those countries, minimum wage is much lower than it is here.

Secondly, even if they increased it TO hourly minimum wage in the united states, there would be rioting.


Liar Liar
By bobcpg on 10/28/2008 11:40:41 AM , Rating: 3
"Stop breaking the law a$$hole!"




RE: Liar Liar
By FITCamaro on 10/28/2008 12:38:08 PM , Rating: 2
Great quote. If China doesn't like the prices, they can just not use it.


Nobody forces them to use Windows
By Bateluer on 10/28/2008 11:46:21 AM , Rating: 2
They could run any one of the myriad of highly effective, stable, and usable Linux distros.

If you're using a pirated version of any software, you have no right to complain. MS isn't exactly restricting their use of their PCs, nor are they destroying the user's data. Their own government handles that aspect. WGA just displays black wallpaper and nag notice.




RE: Nobody forces them to use Windows
By Hieyeck on 10/28/08, Rating: -1
By HighWing on 10/28/2008 12:37:01 PM , Rating: 2
I think you missed the important part here. If you were talking about 3rd party software the your statement fits. However, this can be, for the sake of this discussion, considered part of the OS itself. On top of that, unlike adware/malware, this part of the OS actually told users exactly what it would do if they only read the agreement they had to accept before it was even installed.

No matter how you look at it, the people complaining here really have no grounds at all. They were warned several times, and even told what would happen. They chose to ignore the warnings and are now complaining because of their own ignorance.


RE: Nobody forces them to use Windows
By schizo on 10/29/2008 9:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
my wallpaper is already black...so I think i have no problem with WGA...lol


Poor China
By iFX on 10/28/2008 11:52:11 AM , Rating: 4
Sounds like a bunch of Chinese government PCs are going to stop working, bwbwbbwahahahahahahahh!




And I thought lawsuits in the US were frivolous...
By gtrinku on 10/28/2008 11:56:04 AM , Rating: 2
Let me get this straight: they are suing Microsoft because it decided to "cause serious functional damage to users' computers" by changing the wallpaper to black and displaying a warning in the OS they willingly and illegally pirated?




By PhoenixKnight on 10/28/2008 12:47:30 PM , Rating: 2
OH NO! My background color has changed! How will I ever survive?!


Funny quote
By dflynchimp on 10/28/2008 12:19:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"They should target producers and sellers of fake software, not users."


Does that somehow implies that a user who downloads a cracked copy of software is somehow absolved of guilt because they weren't the one that distributed it? And they can't possibly claim that they didn't know it wasn't a cracked copy because if they actually had the intent to buy it legally in the first place they'd have gone through legitimate outlets to purchase it.




RE: Funny quote
By stans on 10/28/2008 2:50:07 PM , Rating: 2
This is easy to do in the US but in most of the Asia legit and fake is sold side by side in small shops, there aren't any Best Buys or stores of that sort they are usually tiny places. The only true way of telling legit is by price even the fakes will have the holograms (after all the genuine hologram is made in china), it's quite hard to tell the difference I'm not surprised comsumers just go for the lowest priced product.


Microsoft Should 'Spread the Wealth'
By mikefarinha on 10/28/2008 1:46:25 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft is a fantastically rich company. I hope that if Barack Obama gets elected that he will prevent Microsoft from denying poor people software that is nearly ubiquitous.

Microsoft has benefited greatly off of the back of the poor so it is only fair that we demand such 'redistributive change!'




By afkrotch on 10/29/2008 10:37:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft has benefited greatly off of the back of the poor so it is only fair that we demand such 'redistributive change!'


If you can afford a computer and Windows, you aren't poor. I'd say you fall into middle class. Having a Windows PC is what I'd call a luxury.


Don't they have software engineers
By hlper on 10/28/2008 2:55:26 PM , Rating: 2
So, China just needs to get their engineers to come up with their own opperating system, and just dole it out to all of the people who just cannot pay for anything (except apparently a computer capable of Windows).

Problem solved.




By Ananke on 10/28/2008 3:31:32 PM , Rating: 2
MS was effectively allowed to become monopoly, now they want to cash their status. And, government officials effectively told them MS is a little bit politicly inadequate, since government official very easily can ban MS in China's software market. Or at least they can start sueing for monopoly, which I guess will happen now.
So, destructing every possibility of cheaper competition is OK for you? You think is OK 98% of the business to pay only one company in order to have unification? What would've happen if MS was Chinese corporation? I guess CIA themselves would've created perfect and completely free Linux distro, just to be sure that our economy doesn't depend on the enemy's software. So, expect free Chinese OS now, with a lot of backdoors left in it.


How to rationalize cost for different markets
By tech329 on 10/28/2008 4:39:36 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know the costs of the support lifecycle of an operating system but it would seem those are fixed at some dollar amount without regard to where the product is sold. I can't imagine the real cost of selling a copy of Windows in China varies that greatly from selling that same copy in some other country. I'm not sure I am willing to perhaps have a condition where people in other countries are coerced into financing the sale of any product into the Chinese marketplace just because they say something is too expensive for their economy. The U.S. has taken a pounding because of the differential between our respective economies and this sounds like more of the same. There has to be an assignment of currency equity. In real currency terms why should one nation pay a different price for a product. I say screw this if the global marketplace is forced to require pricing differentials that then result in a competitive imbalance. If I run a business in the U.S. that competes with a similar business in China and they pay less in real dollar terms for products used in the conduct of that business then I may as well close up shop. Without uniformly equal global pricing of such products there is no incentive to engage in commerce of any type.




By rudy on 10/29/2008 9:47:57 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly, more of us will move our business to china. Which is exactly what the chinese want. The same thing happens in the US in research universities are paying 1/10 the price for many things to do research so it is no surprise the big firms are outsourcing work to Universities rather then doing it themself. 1 machine for industry 100k for a school 13k. Scientist to run it for industry 80k, grad student to run it in school 20k. End result companies ditch their R&D programs.


LOL at China
By Rob94hawk on 10/28/2008 8:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
This is one time I hope Microsoft stands tall on this one!

It's very simple, don't steal, don't get screwed.

Fck those chineses kleptomaniacs.




RE: LOL at China
By schizo on 10/29/2008 9:43:00 PM , Rating: 2
funny...
let's see this way:
american capitalist company want cheapest labor in asia countries. they pay $150 a month for a labor...but they sell their product at same price at their own countries...
is that fair?
american labor get $2000 a month ( more or less )
asian labor get $150 a month ( more or less )

american company sell same price for both countries no matter what...they get cheapest production cost and get bigger profit.
is that fair?

oh I forgot...american IS capitalism..
no fairness, just profit...


Bah...
By WoWCow on 10/28/2008 1:36:20 PM , Rating: 3
In all reality, it is probably only a matter of time before they ripoff microsoft's windows and turn it into something like this:

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1678

The worst part? They will be getting away with it




heh
By Beavermatic on 10/28/2008 5:02:17 PM , Rating: 3
"Me love you long time. Sucky-sucky for me copy Vista"




Stupid Ppl
By ITknowitall on 10/28/2008 12:05:27 PM , Rating: 2
This is so outrageous. How can you be mad that you were caught stealing?

I like the example above. Hmm, This Ferrari is a little expensive, ill steal it. And if i get caught, ill complain about the price.

They are all mad cause they are stupid.




rediculous
By tastyratz on 10/28/2008 12:09:41 PM , Rating: 2
If you don't activate your system within 30 days it wont let you use it till you do... yet changing your background with a nag baloon is a problem?
Microsoft should absolutely implement measures to protect their software. I am by no means for Microsoft at all and personally do not object to people pirating their software based on my opinion of them... but I think it is absolutely within reason to expect them to send out updates that disable the system from booting without entering a legal key... nevermind something as trite as this.
Hell just about any AV company now with an update subscription has an active blacklisted key checker making it near impossible to pirate many antivirus solutions. Should those people sue if they get a virus?

If its too expensive run linux. If your going to steal windows anyways don't expect to retain any rights to complain. These people are in no position to make an issue because the only impacted ones are illegally running the software. When will people learn to just take responsibility.




He's just pissy because.....
By SiliconAddict on 10/28/2008 9:06:45 PM , Rating: 2
The money that originally was going back into China's fraudulent companies would have to go to MS now. Same political doublespeak, different nation.




is it a big deal?
By stevekgoodwin on 10/28/2008 10:42:47 PM , Rating: 2
<shrug>change the security settings on whatever registry key controls the background image so no account has write access.</shrug>




By arrowspark on 10/28/2008 10:48:59 PM , Rating: 2
"Chinese users expressed their displeasure by posting their thoughts to the Sina.com portal. User Liu Peng wrote, "First of all, Microsoft anti-piracy has the wrong focus. The fight against piracy should focus on the pirates .""

The article sounded to me like Microsoft IS targeting the pirates. So people who knowingly obtain illegal copies of software and use it aren't pirates?




By arrowspark on 10/28/2008 10:50:28 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe someone should mention this to the Chinese.




What does vista cost in china?
By rudy on 10/29/2008 9:41:29 AM , Rating: 2
Anyone know?
They have a huge trade surplus with the US what are the complaining about any way.




Bring it!
By mezman on 10/29/2008 4:02:33 PM , Rating: 2
If I were Microsoft, with pirates threatening to sue me for making my software more annoying to pirate, I'd say BRING IT ON!!

And if they succeded in their frivolous suit, I'd yank my sales to the country.

Then China would sue Microsoft again to sell them Windows.




Just back from China
By TxJeepers on 10/29/2008 5:44:31 PM , Rating: 2
Funny, I just returned from China. Had a deep discussion with my counterpart over there about this very subject. Our company policy is that all software is purchased with legit license. Long story short, its the culture there. My guy tells me that the average Chinese goes to the market and has an option to buy the pirated version for $5 or the licensed version for much more. They buy the less expensive version. It is rampant in their business community too. Many Chinese are very 'cheap'.




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