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Move represents latest measure to combat MMO addiction

China announced a radical new measure to keep citizens’ MMO addictions in check: mandatory real-name registration with the government for all newly-created accounts.

Plans for the system have existed since at least 2006, and according to the state-run newspaper People’s Daily, four online game companies have so far had their operations “suspended” for not linking their products to the government database.

Adult gamers at the time expressed objections to being lumped in with younger gamers, who tend to display a higher potential for addictive behavior. Concerned were also raised regarding similarities to the real-name accountability systems that govern Chinese citizens’ blogs, online music, and mobile-phone systems – however, as noted in Ars Technica, it appears that these critics had little choice in the matter as the real-name system was turned into law essentially unchanged.

The government did grant a concession, though: the name for the MMO flavor of its ID system (translated as “identity verification”) – which shared the same name as all of the others – was assigned a different Chinese name (translated to “real-name registration”) in order to ward off the stigma associated with the public’s overall negative reaction.

“Any guesses as to whether ‘real name registration’ will allay those fears?” asked Danwei’s Joel Martinsen back in 2007.

The Chinese government already heavily regulates MMO usage among students, citing concerns for the games’ highly addictive potential. Many Chinese universities already forbid freshman from bringing a computer with them to school, claiming that these students are simply unable to control themselves.

Indeed, Asian countries seem to exhibit a higher rate of negative consequences stemming from gamers’ so-called addictions, with several reported instances of players gaming to the point of real-life death or, more recently, committing inexplicable, MMO-related suicides.

So far, 2009 has been a heady year for Chinese regulation of its citizens’ internet usage – mandatory ID registration for MMOs trails crackdowns on porn and other “vulgar” content by less than two weeks.



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Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 11:45:55 AM , Rating: 5
Once again the benevolent hand of Big Government takes care of the people.

There will be those here in the US that shun what the Chinese are doing. Then they'll turn right around and commend the NeoConservatives (for violating our rights to *protect us from terror*) and Socialists (who want to rewrite the Constitution to say what the Government is supposed to do for the people rather than what the Government is not allowed to do)for violating the exact same philosophy of liberty, just in different measures and for different purposes. As usual, it's always for the sake of the kids.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/education.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I




RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By FITCamaro on 1/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 4:40:27 PM , Rating: 5
I suppose not doing things that incite terrorism in the first place, namely our foreign policy.

Perhaps read up on Dollar Hegemony and the Petro Dollar concept, Operation Ajax, and a slew of other things that helps to foment their hatred towards us. They aren't killing us because of Barbie Dolls and BBQ.

The answer is not to invade their countries, prop up brutal dicatators who promise to sell their petrol only in dollars, and then violate our rights to privacy here at home. When you give up your liberty for a sense of supposed safety you deserve neither and you lose both.

Before you reply back with another neoconservative answer I'd like you to at least take the time to read some of what I'm sending you linkwise.

Also, take into consideration that Ron Paul, the one person who was calling for an immediate withdrawal of our troops from around the world (namely because it violates our Constitution, foments hatred and is bankrupting us)received more campaign donations from active duty military than ALL the other candidates from both parties COMBINED. If you really support our troops, you might want to consider listening to the man they threw all their money at.

http://mises.org/books/freedomsiege.pdf

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr02...

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/12125

http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.h...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%2...


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Myg on 1/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 7:51:43 PM , Rating: 1
Did you even read any of the highly educational links posted?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By FITCamaro on 1/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 10:39:13 PM , Rating: 5
Apparently you haven't read any of the links I posted. I HIGHLY recommend the Energy Bulletin one. It's a very short read and quite informative.

A very large percentage of their hatred is directly attributed to our meddling in their internal affairs for multiple decades. Although us removing our troops entirely from the MidEast won't make them immediately stop hating us it WOULD go a long ways towards slowing Terrorist Organization recruitment.

I mean, put the shoe on the other foot and imagine if Russia or China were treating us the way that we treat the MidEast nations. Imagine if their intelligence agencies helped to foment riots and coups of our government and put in brutal dictators that promised to sell our resources in their currency so they could export their inflation to the world as they build bigger and bigger armies by creating money they really don't have. Imagine if they put battleships in the Gulf of Mexico to protect *their* interests in the region and openly state it is *their* interests they are protecting. I'm quite certain there would be a whole hell of a lot of Americans blowing things up in Russia or China and quite possibly killing people from those nations here.

You seem to be sorely misguided by folks like O'Reily, Sean Hannity and those of the Neoconservative ilk. Just one look at the PNAC blueprint and their goal of *Full Spectrum Dominance* SHOULD make you realize how horribly damaging the neoconservative ideology is to peace abroad and civil liberties at home.

I think it is in our national security interests to be peaceful with other nations and give them the same respect of their sovereignty that we would expect from them. Basically, follow the Golden Rule.

Until we can do that we can expect more and more terrorist attacks here and things spiraling out of control into WW3 precipitated by economic warfare. Defusing the situation there will not be done by toppling their governments, occupying their lands, building American embassies the size of the Vatican on their soil, installing puppet regimes, and forcing them once again to sell their resources in our currency. That's just plain stupid and pouring tractor trailer loads of gasoline on an already raging bonfire.

The best way to defuse the situation over there is to leave them alone. Tell them we are moving our battleships off of their coasts. Let them sell their resources in whatever currency they want. Let them elect the people they want to govern them. Let them settle their own disputes amongst themselves rather than being judge/jury/executioner. If you keep swatting a hornet's nest you should expect to get stung which is exactly what occured on 9/11.

And lastly, if we HONESTLY support our troops, we should listen to the man they threw all their money at rather than trying to force the ideology of Full Spectrum Dominance on them by electing corrupt, criminal interventionists like Obama/Bush/Clinton to office over and over and over again. Our troops are sick of nation building and we don't have the money for it. Their job is to protect us here if we are invaded, NOT protect us here by going out and invading others first.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Reclaimer77 on 1/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/18/2009 12:16:12 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
They have been "recruiting" longer than the United States has been a country. I find your uhhh analysis on this situation to be dangerous at best.


Yes, but radical Islam against the US is a fairly recent occurence. Perhaps read some of the links I posted to find out more info and maybe check out Brzezinski and the mujaheddin for starters.

quote:
You keep saying nerconserve as if the entire democratic party DIDN'T vote for the war. Did I miss something ? Or are you one of those idiots who believe Bush/Cheney single handedly run the United States ?


As stated in a previous posting it is the interventionist foreign policy held by both parties that is not in our best national security interests(i.e. obama and bush and clinton and reagan and carter all the way back for quite some time).

quote:
Oh for god sakes grow up. You're naive to the point of stupid.


This was made in reference to
quote:
I think it is in our national security interests to be peaceful with other nations and give them the same respect of their sovereignty that we would expect from them. Basically, follow the Golden Rule.


I think naivety lays not on my shoulders but rather on those who think that there's no such thing as blowback due to our current foreign policy of interventionism. It's not naive to desire peaceful relations with others or heavily armed neutrality with those who don't want to be friends.
We cannot spread our way of life via the barrel of a gun.

We should have a foreign and domestic policy that people in other countries seek to emulate and thus bring about changes by and of the people of those places. Our long standing polices of foreign interventionism and total abandonment of the responsibilites as the World Reserve Currency holder have done everything but that.

Luckily, that is all going to come to an end here in short order due to our bankruptcy brought about by those exact same things.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Suntan on 1/18/09, Rating: 0
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By masher2 (blog) on 1/18/2009 11:44:45 AM , Rating: 2
Eh? Saying the Barbary War was inspired by "radical Islam" is like calling a murder by a Catholic mob boss a religious war. The war was an effort on one side to profit from piracy and, on the other, to punish and prevent it. Let's also not forget that today Morocco is our largest ally in the region.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Suntan on 1/18/2009 6:52:25 PM , Rating: 1
Point was that it is incorrect to claim that all the bad things that happen in the world are due to the recent (and implied "bad") actions of America.

-Suntan


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By masher2 (blog) on 1/18/2009 12:18:00 AM , Rating: 5
> "They have been "recruiting" longer than the United States has been a country"

Eh? Even just a scant 60 years ago, the majority of terrorist activity in the Middle East was from Zionist Jewish nationalists, rather than Arabs. And 30 years before that, Arabs were working *with* British and American forces, to throw off Turkish domination. They certainly weren't engaging in attacking interests on foreign soil.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By on 1/18/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By FITCamaro on 1/18/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/18/2009 5:22:47 PM , Rating: 5
You obviously still haven't read ANY of the links I posted.

quote:
I fully realize that they don't like us because we interfere. We made some bad decisions in the past. But I'd rather interfere at times in order to do the right thing, than sit on our hands and do nothing.


Well then you should not be surprised when we are attacked like we were on 9/11. You should also be prepared to tell others that a large reason we were attacked is because of what we have done there, rather than trying to play the 6 year olds logic and blame it on *they hate us for our freedoms*.

Furthermore, when our currency is completely destroyed because of bankrupting ourselves over there the same way the Russians did you should probably consider keeping your mouth shut when you are in the bread line.

As for spouting *neo con blah blah blah* .....I'm not the one espousing my love for fascist neo con ideology, you are. You still aren't looking at things from other people's perspectives and until you do so you are going to be mired in the highly detrimental idiocy that is your position on our foreign policy.

It is because of people like you electing interventionist douches like bush/obama America was attacked on 9/11. Those people's blood are on YOUR hands and YOU need to own up to that fact. After having done that please cease voting, as you are making it a lot worse for the rest of us by advocating more war abroad and more police state measures at home. YOU are directly responsible for American soldiers lives being tossed away like garbage and you show absolutely NO respect for them in any way whatsoever by refusing to advocate a foreign policy of non-interventionism per the Founding Fathers of this country and Ron Paul, who again, RECEIVED MORE CAMPAIGN DONATIONS FROM OUR ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY THAN ALL THE OTHER CANDIDATES FROM BOTH PARTIES COMBINED TOGETHER. Please let that last statement there sink into your head ok. There is nothing you can say that will rebutt that fact.

You are not patriotic by following along the same path that has wrought so much death, destruction and damage to our reputation. As another poster stated, you should consider moving to a different country because you do our's a great disservice with your attitude and refusal to accept the facts.

Lastly, perhaps read up on what REAL patriotism is. It is NOT nationalist aggression predicated upon mercantilistic ideas as you endorse.

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=11015


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By hadifa on 1/18/2009 7:19:01 PM , Rating: 3
Thanks for the links.

As a person who lived in middle east and know something of the history and culture of the region, I found your comments very good and much higher than average -not to mention closer to my heart-.

An change in approach that is both humane and realistic not to mention beneficial to most if not all. Maybe some people will be surprised but there was a time not very long ago (less than a century) were the Americans were seen as liberators and humanitarians in the eyes of people in the very same region. For example when the Iranians wanted to have accountants overseeing the government accounts in the newly established conditional republic of the time, they hired two American accountants. -They were weary of the Russians and the British-

Reading the energy bulletin link, it looked at the recent conflict in an interesting light. It was based on the fact that the US has been importing without being able to repay equally but there was no citations/ references or figures. I found it interesting -though simplistic- but I'm not sure of the claims.

Can anyone with better and deeper understanding of economics comment on the aforementioned article?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By wilki24 on 1/19/2009 4:38:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, take into consideration that Ron Paul, the one person who was calling for an immediate withdrawal of our troops from around the world (namely because it violates our Constitution, foments hatred and is bankrupting us)received more campaign donations from active duty military than ALL the other candidates from both parties COMBINED.


Except that's not quite true.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/08/troops-dep...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3601542&pa...

From what I can tell, the claim you made comes from data from sometime in 2007, and isn't comprised of "active duty" military, but anyone who is or has been associated with the military, including veterans and civilians that work for any of the branches of the military.

If you look at the totals of the actual overseas deployed military personnel (not necessarily in a combat zone), they're minuscule compared to the number of actual active duty military, and are dwarfed by the overall contributions for this election cycle.

In other words, the sources are fuzzy, often come from websites that are openly supporting Ron Paul (thus are suspect by anyone who practices critical thinking), don't provide any scientific backing to "prove" anything at all, and finally are from a sample size too small to be able to determine overall US military support for Ron Paul and his platform.

Finally, I'm not sure why you would espouse someone who has had ties for decades to fringe militia and survivalist groups, and has written some racist opinions in the past:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/man-of-hour.h...

Not really the type of man I'd want to put at the helm of America.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By wilki24 on 1/19/2009 4:53:46 AM , Rating: 2
Just a bit more background on Ron Paul's past:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/10/paul.newsle...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/16/politics...

http://reason.com/blog/show/124339.html

http://www.reason.com/news/show/124426.html

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397...

So, either:

1. Ron Paul believes was was in his newsletters, which makes him a paranoid racist.

2. Ron Paul didn't tell the truth back in the mid 90's when he stood by what was said by claiming the individuals quotes were out of context, which makes him a liar.

3. Ron Paul was completely unaware for a decade or more that his own newsletter was publishing this stuff, and to this day has no idea who wrote it, which makes him completely incompetent.

Again, why did people want him to be President?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By masher2 (blog) on 1/19/2009 1:16:43 PM , Rating: 2
> "Ron Paul didn't tell the truth back in the mid 90's when he stood by what was said "

Let's not misrepresent facts. Paul said he "took moral responsibility" for not exercising more oversight over what was printed in his newsletter. Is Michael Bloomberg (mayor of NYC) responsible for everything published in Bloomberg.com? Was Ted Turner responsible for everything said on CNN?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/19/2009 1:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
Austin NAACP President Nelson Linder, who has known Ron Paul for 20 years, unequivocally dismissed charges that the Congressman was a racist in light of recent smear attempts, and said the reason for him being attacked was that he was a threat to the establishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvFLSwDvBUA

If the NAACP saying Ron Paul isn't a racist isn't enough for you then I'm not sure what is.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/19/2009 10:55:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
From what I can tell, the claim you made comes from data from sometime in 2007, and isn't comprised of "active duty" military, but anyone who is or has been associated with the military, including veterans and civilians that work for any of the branches of the military.


Ron Paul's Top Contributors:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycl...

Obama/McCain's Top Contributors Respectively:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycl...

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycl...

Please take a look at who are the top contributors for Paul and who are the top contributors for the other guys. This data was from 2008, not 2007. You can go ahead and root for the guys that got tons of money poured into their campaigns by the exact same crooks who are now ripping the entire US population off one bailout at a time. I think I'll stick with the guy who got most of his money from our troops.

As for the racist comments in the newsletters, I look at that somewhat akin to Oprah and the child molestation at her school in Africa. Is she a child molestor because of something someone else did under her name? No. Ron Paul has taken moral responsibility for those writings though:

"They were never my words, but I had some moral responsibility for them . . . I actually really wanted to try to explain that it didn't come from me directly, but the campaign aides said that's too confusing." "It appeared in your letter and your name was on that letter and therefore you have to live with it."

Ron Paul has never openly stated anything like what was in those newsletters. Everything that he stands for is in direct contradiction to racism because the Philosophy of Liberty is predicated upon individual rights, not collectivist group rights.

He has openly stated Gandhi and MLK are two of his heroes because of their peaceful civil disobedience to bring about change.

Ron Paul personally "thinks" that Rosa Parks is a great woman and admires her civil disobedience deeply. He believes that she deserved the Medal and Congressional Recognition she received. But he understands that he has no right under the Constitution to spend taxpayer money on such an honor so he voted against honoring her (and was the only person who did--votes like these are why he is known as "Dr. No" in Washington). Instead he offered $100 of his own money and challenged other members of Congress to do the same; they didn't. Afterwards he remarked, "I guess it's easier to be generous with other people's money than it is to be with your own."

If after having read the newsletter remarks in context (some of them were taken out of context)and seeing whom he promotes as his heroes, how he wants to do away with the drug war which unequally targets minority communities, and acquiring an understanding of the philosophy of Liberty I think you'll find that Ron Paul is no racist.

If you still cling to those beliefs then look at it like this. You are in an alley way getting raped and mugged by a bunch of guys. Along comes a fellow that beats them down and saves you. You later find out that guy was a racist. Did it really make any difference when he saved your life?

Ron Paul stands in direct opposition to the crooks who are ripping us off. I am thankful he's there as a lone voice of reason against the corruption.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By blwest on 1/18/2009 11:46:26 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
And how do you suppose the government keep tabs on those they suspect to be terrorists if they can't get wiretaps without a court order? Sometimes you don't have a few hours to get with a judge to explain your reasoning. You have to do it then and there. That's why the legislation to do so is there.


FITCamero, did you read what you just wrote? Are you even American? As Americans we should never give up our rights and laws in place to protect them in the name of security. In this country we have rights, liberty and freedom; I'd like to keep them. People like you are the reason we're losing them. If you'd like to lose your rights, please move to another country.

"Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither and will lose both."

-- Benjamin Franklin


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By kyleb2112 on 1/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/19/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By callmeroy on 1/19/2009 10:27:49 AM , Rating: 1
Oh i pretty much stated the same thing in my last post but didn't see yours....I'm telling you track down a recent issue of PC gamer they documented the fact that MMO farmers are making money hand over fist....


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By arsmitty86 on 1/20/09, Rating: 0
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By saiga6360 on 1/17/2009 12:07:02 PM , Rating: 2
How is this any different from any tactic employed by the government or private entities to combat a form of addiction? MMOs are internet based so what do you propose they do? If MMO addiction is disturbingly real then they, as a Communist society, must do whatever they think they can do to stop it. I think in some cases, a little bit of socialism does wonders to a democratic society and vice versa.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/17/2009 1:03:45 PM , Rating: 5
...let's consider why MMO "addiction" might be such a problem in China, whereas it doesn't seem to be so in other countries.

I'm going to speculate here. Let's presume that China is a wildly oppresive country that does not allow it's citizens to express themselves in a truthful manner. Let's presume that working and living conditions are not very good for large amounts of their citizens. Let's presume that many of these people would really like for things to be better.

...so they can log into a fantasy-world MMO, where everything is rainbows and unicorns, and have all kinds of simulated fun and probably self-expression, and forget about how much everything else about their existince sucks. Or, they can watch state-controlled TV that disallows anything but government propaganda. Or, they can listen to state-controlled radio that disallows anything but government propaganda. Or, they can read state-controlled newspapers that disallow anything but government propaganda. Or, they can access only the portions of the internet that don't conflict with government propaganda. Or, they might be able to blog/read a blog, so long as nothing there conflicts with government propaganda (in which case they go to jail). Or they could write a memoir, so long as it doesn't conflict with government propaganda (in which case they go to jail). Or they could talk with someone about topics that don't conflict with government propaganda (in which case they go to jail). Or...etc.

Gee. I wonder why their citizens might rather spend all day every day embedded deep within a fantasy MMO world. Can't even imagine why.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By technohermit on 1/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By icanhascpu on 1/17/2009 1:55:34 PM , Rating: 4
Do you know what a bot is?

"Dumbass" indeed.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By grath on 1/17/2009 2:36:46 PM , Rating: 2
While yes, the majority of 'gold farming' in mainstream MMOs is largely automated, there is still plenty work on their end that needs to be done by a human. Particularly in the smaller or newer MMOs which havent had the time or resources put into automating the farming, or a game that is particularly good at detecting automation. A game like WoW is such a saturated black market that over supply and competition drive the price down to the point where automation is indeed necessary to make a profit, and the volume is so high that margins can be kept small while maintaining decent aggregate profit. Most other games have a less aggressive market, so the price remains high enough that individual farmers can still profit, although the volume is far less. Beyond basic gold farming, there are leveling services available that require the farmer to actually play your account, and that requires human control far more than does the accumulation of wealth. In any case, there is at least some money to be made by an individual in this business.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By icanhascpu on 1/17/2009 11:15:55 PM , Rating: 2
"...Beyond basic gold farming, there are leveling services available that require the farmer to actually play your account..."

lol

That right there tells me you are not familiar with mmobots.

Leveling bot:

1. Pather
2. Syntax including navigation methods
3. Basic recovery AI.
4. Make a script

This is already being done by the >>>COMMUNITY<<< of one popular bot. Free and also community made scrips. You can go from level 1 to max with almost no end user interaction.

Also, this is much faster than hand leveling, as you dont have to sit and think where to go next. Its already all there. If you die, it will recover. If you disconnect, it will reconnect you and recover.

I think I made my point that MMO services have little to do with MMO addiction, as the point is to not have to go through the BS.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By porkpie on 1/18/2009 12:26:27 AM , Rating: 2
This is just one of the reasons that a decent MMO has a serious death penalty tied to it, including loss of experience.

These "modern" MMOs that let you die over and over with no fear are not only boring, they promote this sort of mindless progression.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By FITCamaro on 1/18/2009 10:42:51 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly why I don't like WoW. I hope the KOTOR MMO doesn't try to emulate WoW at all.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Reclaimer77 on 1/18/2009 10:52:29 AM , Rating: 2
Xp loss from death is a terrible idea.

Tell you what, you develop a game where the servers can NEVER lag. Where my ISP will never lag me or disconnect me from the game. Where there are no cheap ways to exploit kill other players. Where bugs don't exist, at all, ever.

Then sure, go for it. MMO's take up enough of my personal time already. Xp loss from death is a dead end game mechanic and is not needed in WoW because WoW has tons of content. We get to enjoy game content instead of endless leveling just for the sake of leveling.

Let me guess, you guys play FF right ? You sound like FF players. Noses held high in the air, looking down on all us WoW players, proud of how much of your life you throw away on a daily basis.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By porkpie on 1/18/2009 11:53:52 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Tell you what, you develop a game where the servers can NEVER lag
I played EQ for 5 years, several hours most days, and had a grand total of 2 lag deaths. It's just not an issue.

The lack of a death penalty ruins a game. It gives mindless idiots full assurance that they can reach max level, without ever gaining skills or being a valuable part of the community.

In EQ (Early EQ, before they tried to imitate WoW) you knew if you grouped with a max-level that they had certain basic skills, and knew all the ropes. If you couldn't play well, you COULDN'T level beyond a certain point. It was just plain impossible.

But in WoW, every 7 year old has a half dozen max level toons. In fact they think its their RIGHT to reach max level. Without any pain or commitment, or more than a minimal amount of effort.

Virtual games are VIRTUAL. They aren't real. The only "value" you get from an item is what you risked to obtain it. Without a death penalty, the game itself is meaningless. When you risk losing a hundred hours of levelling (and maybe even all your gear) to kill a boss, you are DAMN WELL EXCITED when you succeed. That's a thrill you WoW kiddies will never have. Sad.

quote:
MMO's take up enough of my personal time already
Red herring. XP loss doesn't "take up more time". If you have 10 hours a week to play, you have 10 hours. XP loss just means that, if you suck, you're going to spend those hours at a lower level. Where your dumb *** belongs, if you can't keep from dying constantly.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/18/2009 12:11:53 PM , Rating: 2
...can we stop pretending that there's some kind of "honor" involved in playing a video game? Get a grip. People play the games they play because they enjoy them. If you don't like those games, for whatever reason, then don't play them. And ditch the condescending attitude towards people who play games you don't like, as if it says something about their character (pun not intended, really).


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Reclaimer77 on 1/18/2009 12:23:58 PM , Rating: 1
I'm condescending !?

Read this guy above you. Jesus talk about condescending. He even pulled the " wow kiddies " card, and has NO idea what my age is.

WoW players are constantly condescended against on DT. I never said there was any honor in playing a game. If anything I'm disputing this claim that there IS something more honorable by playing a game with XP loss.

Are you even reading Moto, or just making ANOTHER knee jerk anti-Reclaimer post ?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/18/2009 7:26:30 PM , Rating: 2
Knee-jerk? Take a look in the mirror. I was commenting on the thread in general, and said nothing about you...in fact, it appeared that I was actually agreeing with you.

So...are you even reading Reclaimer? What's with all the hostility, man?


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Reclaimer77 on 1/18/2009 12:19:46 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I played EQ for 5 years,


Man.. I'm really sorry to hear that. Are you doing better today though ? Stay strong, and remember, admitting you had a problem is the first step.

quote:
The lack of a death penalty ruins a game.


lol, your joking right ?

quote:
In EQ (Early EQ, before they tried to imitate WoW)


You mean the game that killed EQ because it's far superior in every way ? Or that EQ was only popular because there was no competition back in "early early EQ".

quote:
But in WoW, every 7 year old has a half dozen max level toons.


Really !? Man I'm 31 and only have 2. I must SUCK right !?

quote:
Virtual games are VIRTUAL. They aren't real. The only "value" you get from an item is what you risked to obtain it. Without a death penalty, the game itself is meaningless. When you risk losing a hundred hours of levelling (and maybe even all your gear) to kill a boss, you are DAMN WELL EXCITED when you succeed. That's a thrill you WoW kiddies will never have. Sad.


Games are virtual, they aren't real, but I'm an EQ guy saying that MY virtual time beats yours and that you are a loser who took the easy way out.

Does that about sum up your point ?

XP loss encounters are tuned differently than WoW. You can't cross compare the two, and continually doing so shows your bias.

Like you said, it's just a virtual game. So whats with the "wow kiddies" insult attempt ? Why so serious bud ?

quote:
Without any pain or commitment, or more than a minimal amount of effort.


Pain ? Commitment ? Effort ? LMAO , are we talking about video games or the military ?

I think you need to put down the wizard hat and staff, go outside and let that sun hit your pasty white face, and make a few decisions without your 8 sided dice.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By porkpie on 1/18/2009 1:38:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Whats with the "wow kiddies" insult attempt ?
This from the guy who just wrote the insulting post above?

I wasn't trying to insult anyone. A lot more kiddies play WoW than EQ. Thats just a basic fact. When you make a game that a 7-year old can solo level to max in a month, you're going to draw more kids.

quote:
Or that EQ was only popular because there was no competition back in "early early EQ".
You mean besides UO, Asheron's Call, Lineage (I, not II), DAOC, FF, and a dozen others that failed because they couldn't compete? Get real.

quote:
XP loss encounters are tuned differently than WoW. You can't cross compare the two
Why not? Because you don't want to look at the results?

In (early) EQ, there were places your average player wouldn't even consider stepping foot in. They were terrified. If you saw a dragon, you were damn well afraid of it. Dying HURT.

In WoW and games like it, you have kiddies suiciding themselves for s**ts and grins, just to make cool screenshots. You have people killing themselves just to SAVE TIME WALKING, for gods sake, so they can get back to their bind point a little faster.

Maybe that's realistic to you, but its not to me. EQ -- early EQ -- was an honest attempt to create a self-consistent fantasy virtual world. WoW is just a game. And the whole time you play it, you never EVER forget that its just a computer game.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By porkpie on 1/18/2009 1:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
Let me give you an example. I remember once in early EQ when someone cracked and began repeatedly suiciding to delevel and destroy his toon.

The spectacle of someone actually willing to kill themselves like this was so morbidly fascinating that people came from all over to watch. They stood in a circle of hundreds, with a few laughing, but most saying things like "OMG", and "this is horrible". Some tried to stop it by finding a GM. Some people couldn't even bear it watch it themselves and turned away. In other words, pretty much what you'd see if a guy in real life tried to set himself on fire on a street corner.

Now can you imagine something even remotely similar happening in WoW? Get real.

Another example, one much more relevant to how much you enjoy gameplay. In early EQ, levelling was so hard that you depended utterly on the help of other people to succeed. And guess what? People actually HAD to be nice to each other. The idiots, the jerks, the losers...they could never get into the high levels, because people wouldn't group with them. People like that all got frustrated and quit.

In WoW, they make the game a pain forever.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Chocobollz on 1/19/2009 2:48:19 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I'm absolutely agree with you. All games should make their players afraid of being "death". That's why there's a "GAME'S OVER". If you can't die, then why would you plays the game.. there'll be simply no fun in playing the game because you're God, you can do anything and when you have done doing everything, you get bored haha..

I myself playing Baramue Nara (a Korean game; NexusTK for the international version) which is the first MMO game in Korea and there, when a character's dead, there's a lot of penalties given to the player. Like, some of your items will be dropped so you often have to take it back nekkid, exp is cut by 1% and so on. For me, that's what makes it fun. Yeah I must admit, sometimes I get very frustrated because of it but that's what keeping me playing the game ~_~.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Danish1 on 1/19/2009 6:22:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The spectacle of someone actually willing to kill themselves like this was so morbidly fascinating that people came from all over to watch. They stood in a circle of hundreds, with a few laughing, but most saying things like "OMG", and "this is horrible". Some tried to stop it by finding a GM. Some people couldn't even bear it watch it themselves and turned away. In other words, pretty much what you'd see if a guy in real life tried to set himself on fire on a street corner.
Now can you imagine something even remotely similar happening in WoW? Get real.


The same thing is actually happening in WoW.

People vowing to quit forever and then disenchanting and/or selling all their gear so they won't have anything to come back to.

Of course they usually end up coming back anyway ;p

Apart from that I agree with you, there should be consequences for dying and the game should be tuned around it.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Reclaimer77 on 1/19/2009 6:08:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Maybe that's realistic to you, but its not to me


Did you just bring the realism argument into a discussion about Wizards, Orc's, and people who can resurrect themselves from the dead ??


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By porkpie on 1/20/2009 8:52:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did you just bring the realism argument into a discussion about Wizards, Orc's, and people who can resurrect themselves from the dead ??
I sure did. It's called an internally consisistent set of rules. If you don't understand that one fantasy universe can be much more realistic than another, then you've already lost the debate.

Oh and nice job of ignoring all my other points. Games with high death penalties are not just more realistic, they attract a totally different audience. The players are more mature, more sociable, they know their game better, and you don't get all the jerks and losers you do in simpler games.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By rdeegvainl on 1/20/2009 2:02:59 PM , Rating: 2
Some quotes from pork pie in this thread.
quote:
The lack of a death penalty ruins a game.

For you porkpie. Ever play the new Prince of Persia. YOU CAN'T DIE. Great Game.
quote:
Virtual games are VIRTUAL. They aren't real.

Something you and many others forget when talking about mmo's
quote:
When you risk losing a hundred hours of levelling (and maybe even all your gear) to kill a boss, you are DAMN WELL EXCITED when you succeed. That's a thrill you WoW kiddies will never have. Sad.

Sad indeed. They will never have to respend hundreds of hours of leveling again. Oh what will they do, woe is them.
quote:
XP loss just means that, if you suck, you're going to spend those hours at a lower level. Where your dumb *** belongs

ahh elitism at its finest. "YOU DON'T BELONG AT MY LEVEL"
quote:
A lot more kiddies play WoW than EQ.

Alot more of every group or subgroup of people play wow than EQ.
quote:
WoW is just a game. And the whole time you play it, you never EVER forget that its just a computer game.

Just like EQ. And if you are forgetting that EQ is just a game, you should seriously get some help.

If you like a game play it. Stop trying to make it out to be some holy experience.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By LordanSS on 1/20/2009 6:12:43 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, old time EQ1 player here (left years ago though) as well.

I tip my hat to those who killed Vindicator, Statue and Avatar of War when the cap was 60 (although AoW was only killed when Luclin came out). Also, tip my hat to the folks who got into Vex Thal and cleared it before the level cap increase (the whole journey to VT was a massive endeavour, just to get access) in Planes of Power.

It required good skills to pull off many things in Everquest. For most current MMOs, since they have taken a more arcadeish-fashion, it's just a matter of button mashing.

Honestly, I miss a lot of the old times. Back then, beating something big and getting upgrades actually had real meaning to the player.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By saiga6360 on 1/18/2009 2:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
Well I am all for the Chinese government forcing these junkies to stop taking the coward's way out. If you don't like how you're government is treating you then do something about it instead of escaping reality.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By TSS on 1/17/2009 1:27:02 PM , Rating: 3
personally, i'm not against connecting real names to MMO accounts. i have played MMO's alot and i know how bothersome anonimity is. hell anybody who's surfed on the internet knows it. people can get away with anything without beeing held accountable.

however, i am against what this information is used for. while i do think you can be addicted to MMO's (i think you can get addicted to *anything*. think something up and i'm sure somebody in the history of mankind has been adicted to it) the definition of addiction of MMO's is at best, hazy.

and that's speaking from personal experience. i have played alot of MMO's, often 10+ hours a day. yet i'm not addicted, while i *have* been addicted to computer games in general at a point in my life, while i'm not addicted now, there are days/nights where i game *more* then when i was. sound confusing? it is. let me explain.

i *choose* to spend all this time in the game. i enjoy beeing in this fantastical world with friends doing amazing things. and at any time i can choose to leave to do stuff like take out the trash, shower, go to the store cooking dinner etc. at a earlyer point in my life with a less stable mind, i couldn't. everything had to wait untill i felt i was ready to leave the PC.

however the longest login time in wow i've seen is a 13 hour session (gone AFK several times though). now here's where it gets hazy. i know i'm not addicted, my friends know that, my dad knows it too. but the chinese goverment would see a 13 hour login time, and they would definitly call me addicted.

oh the other hand i cleared my addiction halfway through IT school, which was a 4 year education which i graduated from. even then i had times where i gamed 10+ hours in a day.

i'm all for combatting addictions. however it should not limit how much the rest of us unaddicted people how much we enjoy that paticular spending of time. it would be better to look at people who we know are addicted, and solve the ORIGIN of the problem. what the chinese are doing is combatting symptoms.

for me, beeing bullied by everybody in and off highschool, having 0 friends total and beeing socially shunned by society, while beeing the master of frags online, made me addicted. i got out of it when i became friends with guys at my new school (years later), who where just friendly to me and with whom i had a blast with. and i still enjoy playing a game with some of the people i still know from that time.

besides all of that, limit my WoW use and i'll go play quake live of which i got a beta key last week. take that offline, i got trackmania nations forever to play with. stop that, i'll turn to diablo 2 if i have to. kill battle.net, and i'll go try get a lvl 100 in oblivion offline. you can never stop an addiction by fighting symptoms.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By FITCamaro on 1/17/2009 2:25:38 PM , Rating: 4
What I see happening here is that people register their real names with the game. The government asks for all chat logs associated with these accounts, scans the logs for people speaking out against the government, and arresting them.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/17/2009 2:29:35 PM , Rating: 2
...exactly like they do with blogs and other stuff. Rate this to 6.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/18/2009 12:22:13 AM , Rating: 2
cha ching. And yet you are just fine with our government having the exact same powers to look for *terrorists*. It is for the very reason you stated that it is wise to never give Government those powers. The taking down of Eliot Spitzer using banking provisions of the Patriot Act are a prime example.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Lord 666 on 1/17/2009 3:17:09 PM , Rating: 2
The first symptom of addiction is denial...


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Omega215D on 1/19/2009 3:52:21 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not addicted to beer, the beer is addicted to me.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Myg on 1/17/2009 7:23:20 PM , Rating: 1
Having your real name represented would bring a level of personal responsibility to the table.

With fake names you can pick up all sorts of bad reps etc and just drop the character and move on to the next one.

This is a very insightful perspective to the issue.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/17/2009 7:29:31 PM , Rating: 2
No. It's a means for the Chinese government to track online gamers better. Has nothing to do with personal responsibility, and everything to do with government monitoring of civilians.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By Motoman on 1/17/2009 7:54:38 PM , Rating: 2
<Chinese gamer on WoW>
Say: I wish I lived in a democracy!

<Chinese government spook>
Initiate crackdown on that gamer!

[5 minutes later]
*knock knock*
<Chinese gamer>
Who's there?
*Inspecter Knacker of the Chinese People's Yard. Please come with me.*
<Chinese gamer>
WTFOMFG!?
<Inspector Knacker>
Welcome to prison. You'll be here for, well, let's face it. Until you die.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 10:57:45 PM , Rating: 2
Apply the same idea to eating ice cream or pizza. It makes you fat and unhealthy. Should people then be forced into sending their information to the government for caring, preventive measures to be taken aka no ice cream for you!

The role of government is to protect our freedoms and liberty by keeping us safe from foreign invasion, maintaining a sound currency, enforcing contracts, running the courts and dealing with pollution violations. That's it.

The government should not be in the business of running our lives by legislating morality or trying to run everything in the economy by extending the interstate-commerce clause and the general-welfare clause to do anything they want to do.

Perhaps the Chinese will one day understand the philosophy of liberty as well and have a revolution of their own against tyrannical government.


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By NeoConned08 on 1/17/2009 11:00:26 PM , Rating: 2
Apply the same idea to eating ice cream or pizza. It makes you fat and unhealthy. Should people then be forced into sending their information to the government for caring, preventive measures to be taken aka no ice cream for you!

The role of government is to protect our freedoms and liberty by keeping us safe from foreign invasion, maintaining a sound currency, enforcing contracts, running the courts and dealing with pollution violations. That's it.

The government should not be in the business of running our lives by legislating morality or trying to run everything in the economy by extending the interstate-commerce clause and the general-welfare clause to do anything they want to do.

Perhaps the Chinese will one day understand the philosophy of liberty as well and have a revolution of their own against tyrannical government.

(my apologies if this double posts. my connection barfed so not sure what will happen when i press the post comment button)


RE: Philosophy of Liberty
By stilltrying on 1/17/2009 9:28:39 PM , Rating: 2
Finally there are others out there who see the big picture. No insult to the OP but I am wondering when sheeple are going to get it. It seems for most never.

Great post with great links of which I have been to many times and many many other links not listed. Nice job for stating it as it is.


Asian players are a plague on Warcraft
By Reclaimer77 on 1/17/2009 2:22:50 PM , Rating: 2
I support any crackdown by the Chinese government on their WoW players.

The number of people that I just know who have had their accounts hacked and gold stolen is alarming. Game wide, it's a huge plague. If they stayed on their own servers and stole from their own, it would be one thing. But gold pirates respect no boundaries.

And please, let's not mince words. Chinese people are the majority of the offenders. Runner up, Koreans.




RE: Asian players are a plague on Warcraft
By FITCamaro on 1/17/2009 2:27:26 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah a co-worker of mine's husband had his account hacked about a month ago. Stole all his gold and sold all his items. He got the items back but not the gold.

Personally I think people who buy gold are some of the dumbest mother f**kers on the planet. You're paying real money for fake money.


By cherrycoke on 1/17/2009 3:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
While I have never payed for gold with real money, nor do I intend to, some people will argue their time is money. To farm gold even for your own account can take some time in any game. The working class average Joe that isn't playing 10+ hrs a day, but working instead, will argue that it does make sense to buy gold because their time is worth more.

Example: They could farm for 5 hrs to get 500 gold or buy 500 gold for $50.00 They figure they are really just working for about $10/hr equivalent and if their job pays more, or they work an hour or two overtime it is a betteri nvestment of their time. (These are just numbers off the top of my head and it may even be more "beneficial" than this)

Once again I don't purchase gold myself but I know people who do and aside from the "ethics" of it all, it makes sense to them financially.


By grath on 1/17/2009 3:09:04 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that I dont think we can really consider it fake anymore. The virtual currency of an MMO has a known exchange rate with real hard currency. That rate fluctuates based on the demand of consumers and the supply of producers within a marketplace just like any real world commodity.

I can use a Paypal account to buy some WoW gold with American dollars, sell that gold back to a farming house at a lower rate, and get paid in Euros to my bank in Lichtenstein. I have just laundered money through a video game, but how can you say the means of exchange is not "real?"

From the innocent players side, it may be a game, but accumulating wealth and possessions takes real time and real effort. Those items serve to enhance the experience of your leisure activity of choice, and they can be stolen and sold for real money, they hold actual real world value, so how is that really different from some sporting equipment that gets stolen out of your garage?

We are past the point where we can still call it fake. If it affects the real world, if it has value in the real world, then it is real, and we will have to start treating it as such. Like any black market, as long as there is demand there will be supply, and people will always want shortcuts and will be willing to pay for it. The people who hack accounts and steal for profit are criminals. The people who run gold farming sweatshops are criminal organizations like any other. It is in effect, The War on Drugs 2.0, 21st century style.

So how can we say its not real?


By Darkefire on 1/17/2009 4:00:19 PM , Rating: 2
When your social life revolves around the game, I'd imagine it makes much more sense. Currency in any form is merely the physical representation of the value of a good or service; in this case, the items they receive online are valuable enough to warrant exchanging their government money for virtual money. Gold farmers are simply the internet's version of moneychangers.

And like the moneychangers of history, they receive a similar response from the people around them. WoW should implement a "tar and feather" command...


RE: Asian players are a plague on Warcraft
By karhill on 1/17/2009 6:41:42 PM , Rating: 2
I'm confused. Why is it so easy to hack someone's WOW account. I've been hearing a lot about this lately. Are the attacks just a brute-force/dictionary attack on someone's password, or is the WOW system just insecure in some other way. Tell me, what's up?


By Reclaimer77 on 1/18/2009 10:34:47 AM , Rating: 2
Karhill, nobody knows.

The keylogger theory is the most prevalent. That you unknowingly download, via a shady site or link, a program that logs you logging into WoW and sends that info back to the gold sellers.

I personally have a hard time believing this is the cause of the majority of violations. For a keylogger to run, all of these people would have to be without virus and spyware protection and to have windows firewall completely off.

It's either a brute force attack on the login servers or some other type. Sharing passwords and keylogging simply can't account for the massive number of accounts stolen.


By phxfreddy on 1/17/2009 10:09:10 PM , Rating: 1
It is plain to see for the clear thinking that the democrats LOVE this sort of control ability for the state. Very funny in a way if you don't cry first because surely but truly we are becoming more like China.




By FITCamaro on 1/18/2009 10:45:06 AM , Rating: 2
Pretty much. And it will all be done in the name of helping the poor and the sick.


By rdeegvainl on 1/20/2009 2:12:13 PM , Rating: 2
or in the name of stopping terrorism.


I think the move is something else entirely
By Comdrpopnfresh on 1/17/2009 3:13:14 PM , Rating: 2
Can't people communicate internally in the game, on the server which is on a private network? So would it be conceivable for individuals to converse and spread information the government wouldn't be able to monitor without having the whole conversation, especially with no name attached?




By Lerianis on 1/20/2009 3:58:16 AM , Rating: 2
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! That is what I think that they are worried about: political dissidents using the chat systems in these games to spread information that the Chinese government doesn't like.


By callmeroy on 1/19/2009 10:26:05 AM , Rating: 2
I can recall if its this month's issue or last months issue (I read the mag mostly in my bathroom...so yeah not really noticing the date of the issue).....anyway they just did a story on the amount of revenue the chinese "farmers" are making for some companies over there off of MMO "addiction"...and it was staggering. So while game addiction can be a problem, um...yeah there's a lot of money being made by some by "being addicted" as well.




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