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BYD F3DM  (Source: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg News)
The F3DM can run 60 miles on a fully charged battery and recharge in seven hours

Green crusaders and consumers looking for an alternative to gasoline power for their vehicles have been clamoring for a green plug-in hybrid for a long time. Several automakers have plans for plug-in hybrid vehicles to come to market in the next few years.

Chevrolet for instance has its Volt extended range electric vehicle set for entry to the market in 2010. However, a Chinese company has grabbed the distinction of being the first carmaker on the planet to offer a mass-produced plug-in hybrid.

The Chinese company is called BYD (Build Your Dreams) and is now selling the F3DM plug-in hybrid in its home country. The vehicle has a full electric range of 60 miles on a full battery. The lithium-ion batteries can be charged fully in seven hours and the battery can be charged to 50% of full capacity in only ten minutes at a special charge station.

In addition to the battery power, the car also sports a 1-liter gasoline engine that charges the batteries for extended driving. BYD founder and chairman Wang Changfu said, "The development of electric-powered vehicles is the best way for the Chinese auto industry to surpass other leading countries."

The F3DM will sell at a price of about $22,000 initially and will be first targeted at government agencies and corporations. American Warren Buffett purchased a 9.9% stake in the company in September, which could mean that the vehicle may find its way to America in the future. Buffett's purchase cost him $230 million.

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foriegn auto makers
By JoshuaBuss on 12/19/2008 12:01:30 PM , Rating: 5
just another sign of how behind we are here in the U.S.. even China can make a volt-killer and get it out the door before us. (for less money and with a greater all-electric range, no less)




RE: foriegn auto makers
By bobsmith1492 on 12/19/2008 12:05:57 PM , Rating: 4
Now to see how much it costs, how long the battery lasts (number of years of operation), and if it has any major safety issues...

That's the nice thing about working outside the US - you can use your first production run for reliability and safety testing and if a major problem pops up, you don't need to worry about lawsuits!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By therealnickdanger on 12/19/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By on 12/19/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By blowfish on 12/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: foriegn auto makers
By RoberTx on 12/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: foriegn auto makers
By Phynaz on 12/19/2008 3:37:09 PM , Rating: 4
This trolls rating is now -.97.

I thought the rating system was suppposed to automatically deal with this.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By grandpope on 12/19/2008 6:31:02 PM , Rating: 2
I almost think that he does it to make all his post headers red in order to stand out. Its pretty easy to find a post by PS3, just look for the red comments...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By BansheeX on 12/19/2008 8:01:31 PM , Rating: 3
He should have been banned by now, but he seems to have admin relations or capabilities. It's not ignorance, he is trying for it to make people hate his name. He has a backlog of hundreds of -1 post, and nothing is done about it.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By on 12/20/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By cheetah2k on 12/21/2008 3:49:47 PM , Rating: 2
So... um.. where do you live again??

heheh


RE: foriegn auto makers
By fibreoptik on 12/22/2008 8:32:24 AM , Rating: 2
I bet 10 pesos he's from France or Quebec (aka France V.2.0)


RE: foriegn auto makers
By on 12/22/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By ZmaxDP on 12/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: foriegn auto makers
By on 12/22/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:24:56 PM , Rating: 4
I dunno he has a point. Have you seen the crash test videos/ratings for chinese cars? something like 99% chance of death. Thats not good.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By cokbun on 12/21/2008 10:42:17 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
by rudolphna on December 19, 2008 at 7:24 PM I dunno he has a point. Have you seen the crash test videos/ratings for chinese cars? something like 99% chance of death. Thats not good.


so? it's low emission and it can reduce the human population. that's the greenest car ever.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 2:37:38 PM , Rating: 2
It's a communist country. Mr. I Build Cars and Mr. I Haul Trash can make the same amount of money.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By therealnickdanger on 12/19/2008 5:00:13 PM , Rating: 3
They are not all paid the same, actually.
http://www.payscale.com/research/CN/Country=China/...

Factory work is pretty terrible:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-673356494...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By helms on 12/19/2008 5:44:29 PM , Rating: 5
You are an idiot. There are no true communist countries, there were none in the past, there are none now. The countries that call themselves communist are only communist in name. A more adequate name for the systems in these countries is, capitalism version 2. If you bothered with research or actually visited the country you would realize that China is more capitalistic than America. Why the f**k do you think that they put crap into pet food and milk. To save money, leading to higher profit for the companies involved = capitalism. Capitalism is ingrained into their culture, from the time when a child is born they are taught to compete. This starts off in school, those who fail to make the grade get ditched from school way before they finish. Approximately 3 yrs before university is when they get kicked out of school. They obviously do not get paid the same, more education = better paid jobs. There is no such thing as help when you suddenly lose your job, if you lose your job, you rely on your family or the money you saved when you were working, if you don't have one and don't have any savings your f**ked. At least in America for the first month or rather after you lose your job you get unemployment income.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By BansheeX on 12/19/2008 9:07:36 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You are an idiot. There are no true communist countries, there were none in the past, there are none now.


I disagree, China has worse political freedom, but more economic freedom than us at the moment, and that's a huge problem for us. They're a wealthy creditor nation with trade surpluses and a high savings rate. We are the opposite. They essentially traded us a lengthy consumption binge in exchange for all of our manufacturing and savings. If they ever depeg and spend their trillion in dollar reserves, it's bad news for us. With a depreciated currency, we wouldn't be able to outbid for imports. Without factories, we wouldn't be able to replace those imports with domestic goods. Without savings, it would take decades to build them.

Courts for recourse against companies who taint products are one of the few desirable functions of government. That's China's problem, not capitalism or burdensome regulation and licensure. If a company ever poisoned a product here, FDA regulation wouldn't be able to stop it, but the court system would make damn sure the company who did it suffered financial consequences. Generally, these consequences far exceed the profits made from the fraud or misrepresentation, thereby serving to prevent them. Remember when Firestone cut corners and had all those defective tires that killed people and got sued? The bad press reduced sales and the court costs outweighed the profits by a longshot. A ripple of fear was sent over the entire tire industry, immediately reminding other companies how foolish it would be to do the same. To make a long story short, your contention that these kinds of product misrepresentations pay off in a free market is pure nonsense.

To further prove the fallacy of socialism, let's cite a cost and ignore the benefit: small cars without rollcages. Making only a perfectly safe car legal would price almost everyone out of the market, such idealism would no doubt have worse cost-benefit ratios than letting cheaper but less safe cars be sold and driven. Yes, more people will die, but that's only because far, far more will be allowed to weigh a known risk. If government can declare those known risks not worth it for the rest of us, very few people would have cars. The reality truly is that there is a cost to human life and benefits that can exceed it. This is what regulationists find so hard to accept.

When China was economically socialist and Hong Kong wasn't, it was a perfect contrast between the two economic models. People had greater individual control over their lives and money in Hong Kong, so much so that China had to build fences and guard posts to keep people from crossing over. Ever since taking a more hands-off approach with regard to market transactions, the prosperity and growth of China has accelerated dramatically. Same thing with India post-1970. To cite the milk incident as proof that it wasn't worth it is grossly disproportionate to the complete lack of middle class growth under socialism. And it's a problem with the court system, not the market.

Capitalism is the truly the system with the least costs and most benefits, it works to human incentive and puts the most money in the hands of its earner where it will be spent with the most thrift. It allows individuals to transact with one another to mutual benefit. It offers an incentive for hard work and a disincentive for lazy work. But when government gets in there... watch out. Government has a key power private industries don't, the power to appropriate money (tax) or its value (inflation) by FORCE without court interference. And the more money and power government appropriates, the more likely you are to see bribery and collusion deciding the winners rather than legitimate competition. And that's the difference between socialism and capitalism. Capitalism is the percentage of money in the hands of its earner. Socialism is the percentage of money in the hands of the "community" via political leaders.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Alexvrb on 12/19/2008 11:16:13 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Remember when Firestone cut corners and had all those defective tires that killed people and got sued? The bad press reduced sales and the court costs outweighed the profits by a longshot. A ripple of fear was sent over the entire tire industry, immediately reminding other companies how foolish it would be to do the same.


Yeah except it was just as much Ford's fault as it was Firestone's. They built a tip-happy vehicle (Exploder and its clones), and when their own engineers realized how unsafe it was (flipped over very easily even in their own testing), Ford decided that it was too expensive to redesign it. So instead, they made some minor changes and tossed it into the market. One of those brilliant changes was to take the cheap tires, and run them at a much lower than recommended PSI. They set the recommended PSI to 26.

Furthermore, if you set the tires to 26 and then take your average driver who rarely checks them, they could be driving on the highway with significantly less pressure in their tires and never know it. Yeah, the tires were problematic to start with. Big time. Combine that with severe underinflation, tires hot from a high speed highway run, and maybe some hot pavement, and those tires are going to shed tread left and right. Furthermore, that particular vehicle is really prone to flipping over. Lose a tread, and you're going places, and not good places.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 5:49:05 PM , Rating: 4
Nonsense. We should never point the finger at a car company if someone takes a vehicle that doesn't sit low to the ground and drives it irresponsibly.

If someone sucks at driving, they need to slow it down and learn - or pick a different vehicle that's easier to drive.

Somehow people became confused and thought they were Mario Andretti behind the wheel of anything that moves. Darwinism at it's best.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Alexvrb on 12/21/2008 11:12:45 PM , Rating: 3
I hope you're joking. You're saying if a vehicle is unsafe, the driver should just *know* its unsafe and drive something else? It has nothing to do with their driving in this case. The vehicle has:

1) An inherently poor rollover resistance, even for a vehicle of its class.
2) Poor tires.
3) Factory underflated tires.

Furthermore, even Mario Andretti in one of these Exploders wouldn't be able to do much, if one of the tires had its tread seperate under more-than-common highway conditions.

From tirefailures.com:
quote:
This sequence of events occurs so rapidly that it is virtually impossible to handle most high speed tread separation failures and resulting loss of control of the vehicle. This was demonstrated by tests of Ford Explorers with Firestone tires in which an experienced test driver, who knew the tread was going to separate, lost control and the vehicle rolled over.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/26/2008 10:38:33 PM , Rating: 2
I'm saying anyone who drives a large top heavy vehicle as if it isn't large and top heavy is an idiot.

Only stupid people think they can drive whatever they own without consideration of what it's inherant weaknesses are based on what type of vehicle they CHOSE to drive.

It is really news that a top heavy SUV can't handle as well as a sports car? Duh? DUH DUH DUH?

Sorry, this is ridiculous. Some people simply can't drive well and are foolish to drive vehicles that require higher than average driving skill if they insist on driving as fast as everyone else.

HINT: You won't see tractor trailers driving like some SUV owners do. Why? Because they're on the road enough to have gained some common sense.

An experienced test driver doesn't mean anything because they were trying to cause a failure. I'm experienced in having ice cubes melt and no matter how skilled I am at it, if they melt I will still have a problem (drink gets warm).

The fact is, very few people actually had accidents because of tire failure, but you don't want truth, you just want random 3rd party speculations. What about everyone else who had that vehicle but DIDN'T crash? Oh, wait, now we're trying to consider facts instead of speculation, isn't it funny how when facts get involved, suddenly there is an obvious variable not yet considered?

It's crazy that people too dumb to walk and chew gum are driving SUVs. Tires? If anyone can't drive their vehicle after a tire blows out, they are irresponsible to drive that vehicle. Driving is not about can you do it in best case scenario, it's about doing so safely in ALL possible scenarios... or staying off the road so as to not risk other peoples' lives.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By helms on 12/20/2008 12:04:19 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
To make a long story short, your contention that these kinds of product misrepresentations pay off in a free market is pure nonsense.


You make a good point, but nevertheless they do pay off as long as you don't get caught. Just like the fraud perpetrated by Bernard Madoff. It was paying off for him until he got caught.

quote:
When China was economically socialist and Hong Kong wasn't, it was a perfect contrast between the two economic models. People had greater individual control over their lives and money in Hong Kong, so much so that China had to build fences and guard posts to keep people from crossing over.


They were trying to cross over because they believed they would have a better life in Hong Kong than the mainland at the time. China at the time was worse than HK in living standards, but this does not mean that living standards were worse because it was economically socialist and HK was not. In all likelihood if you went to China now and tried to get someone to marry you and flashed your green card, I would wager a significantly large proportion of the female population would jump at the opportunity.

quote:
To cite the milk incident as proof that it wasn't worth it is grossly disproportionate to the complete lack of middle class growth under socialism. And it's a problem with the court system, not the market.


I didn't cite the milk incident as proof it wasn't worth it. I cited it as proof that China is economically capitalist. I agree that capitalism is the best system for human beings now and into the future. It has proven its effectiveness for at least 50 years if not more. Nevertheless I see it as flawed (You probably don't, this is where we disagree). A flawed system for a flawed species. Communism was never meant for humans, that is why it won't work. It is meant for elves.

I do not believe the complete lack of middle class growth was due to communism at all. Like I said before, I don't believe there are any true communist countries. To get an idea what I believe a true communist country would be like watch Zeitgeist Addendum from here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277...
and note the resource based economy.
Nevertheless I will reiterate the fact that I don't believe their dream of a resource based economy will succeed. I believe there is a extremely high chance it will fail if someone actually tried to implement it just like communism failed because the human race is flawed. Not to mention the lack of detail of how it would actually work, and the false notion that there will be no crime.

By the way I do not live in the US, or China where workers (factory/construction) sometimes don't get paid after they have completed a job, not to mention they get paid crap, barely enough to survive. I thank the universe that I live in Australia. The way I see it China is a country that I probably don't ever want to go to for a extended period of time and America is a country that I will visit only after I finish my degree and want to get a job in the engineering of military craft. Which makes sense considering the amount the US spends on defense, lol.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Ringold on 12/21/2008 1:22:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
China at the time was worse than HK in living standards, but this does not mean that living standards were worse because it was economically socialist and HK was not.


Not to sound overly harsh, but I believe you fail to understand at all the economic reforms which touched off the prosperity currently seen in China. If you'd cracked open and read any study or book on China's recent economic history, doesn't matter if it were written from the neo-Marxist perspective or a more classical liberal perspective, they all point to free market reforms made in the 80s and the clear break from the state control which ruled previously. It was absolutely the difference in economic systems that lead to the difference between Hong Kong and the mainland. What you appear to be offering is some revisionist view of history, or perhaps an extremely narrow view of what constitutes a whole economic system.

quote:
In all likelihood if you went to China now and tried to get someone to marry you and flashed your green card, I would wager a significantly large proportion of the female population would jump at the opportunity.


Obviously, because as an American I hail from a nation who was founded on classical liberal (free market) principles in 1776, and has basically adhered to them ever since. Free market principles in China are probably only the same age as the average DailyTech reader. Exponential growth can do impressive things, but turn a devastated failed socialist state in to a shining beacon of wealth and prosperity in 3 decades it can not!

Now, if I went to Hong Kong and asked a random lass if she wanted a ticket to America, she may well ask me why the hell she'd want to pay our higher tax rates. Indeed, maybe she'd offer me the ability to stay in Hong Kong, and if she could swing me a job, maybe I'd stay. (I can't be bothered to get a link from The Economist, but earlier this year certain US embassies had lines extending around them with expat US citizens waiting to renounce their citizenship in order to avoid punitive taxes. Hong Kong was one, there were a few others.) I personally know a few people, some in my family some not, who make good money there and have no intention in the short run of returning to the US.

By the way, India? Same song, only slightly different dance.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By helms on 12/21/2008 5:08:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Not to sound overly harsh, but I believe you fail to understand at all the economic reforms which touched off the prosperity currently seen in China. If you'd cracked open and read any study or book on China's recent economic history, doesn't matter if it were written from the neo-Marxist perspective or a more classical liberal perspective, they all point to free market reforms made in the 80s and the clear break from the state control which ruled previously. It was absolutely the difference in economic systems that lead to the difference between Hong Kong and the mainland. What you appear to be offering is some revisionist view of history, or perhaps an extremely narrow view of what constitutes a whole economic system.


I believe it is erroneous to imply that a connection between two events means that one event caused another event. Economics is not a science, there are probably a huge number of variables of which economic reform is only one such variable. I would use the video game analogy, although there is evidence of a link between violent video games and violent actions:
http://culturalpolicy.uchicago.edu/conf2001/papers...
I believe it is wrong to say violent video games cause violent actions. There are a huge number of other variables which are not accounted for, unrelated to video games which when combined with violent video games may cause a violent action to be undertaken. It is also true that the huge number of other variables by themselves without any violent video games may result in violent actions.

Another analogy is global warming/climate change. There are many variables which affect the earth's climate of which man is only 1 variable. One would hope that scientists have taken into account all the various other variables before reaching the conclusion that man is the most significant cause of global warming/climate change. In the absence of the accounting for the numerous other variables involved or if our current understanding is too limited to account for these other variables, global warming/climate change is at best a guess that may be true but also likely to be false. Note: I am a climate change agnostic.

I am a believer in the concept that groups with more altruistic individuals do better than groups with less altruistic individuals yet selfish individuals within a group do better than altruistic individuals in the same group. As such I believe 1 variable contributing to the failure of communism and perceived success of capitalism is that there is only 1 group in the current world. As stated before I believe that capitalism is probably the best system for humans, however for communism to even have that small 0.05% chance of succeeding, communist countries must create their own group, this means decoupling from the world economy and becoming entirely self sufficient. I would wager that no attempt at communism has succeeded in decoupling themselves from the world economy and probably because there is currently no country in the world with all the resources required to be self sufficient. In the absence of this decoupling or self sufficiency any communist country must participate in the world economy and as such it no longer is a group competing with the other group called the rest of the world, but an individual within the group called the whole world. If we look at global warming/climate change those countries that actively take measures to reduce the emissions of CO2 are at a competitive disadvantage in the short run and possibly the long run compared with those that don't. As stated before, selfish individuals (America) do better than altruistic individuals (Europe) within a group.

I must also ask, do any of the books that you mention on China's recent economic history take into account the variable called the Industrial Revolution and the fact that from Britain it subsequently spread throughout Europe and North America. One would hope they do, if not, failure to account for this lead, the way in which it spread and the fact that Western countries are unlikely to give away this big lead for free is already a big flaw. Note: Hong Kong was once a British Colony.

I believe the only sure thing that improves lives is technology. It is no coincidence that capitalist America is a world leader in technology. One can probably point to other third world countries which were probably never communist like China yet are currently behind China in living standards.

My thoughts on the technological lead of the first world which improves living standards. How will China go about purchasing a reduction in this lead from the west? Answer: By practicing capitalism and allowing the West to export jobs to China and pay Chinese workers crap to do those jobs. In short, capitalism seems to be very effective at spreading technology. Communism probably has no effect on the spread of technology or is slower at it. That is another variable to consider. The fact that capitalism probably spreads technology better than communism does not mean that communism causes lower living standards in a world where every country has reached the technological capacity of the first world and as such have the same starting point. Comparing China with Hong Kong two places which most likely had different starting points is erroneous. Not to mention that the West has influence and it is an outside force. If the outside force called the West was removed and China was still economically socialist and HK still economically capitalist, would the outcome be altered, in all likelihood the answer is Yes it would.

Another factor that needs to be accounted for is that different communist policies may well have drastically different results. Say China implemented a different communist policy in the past to the one they implemented, how would that affect the outcome.

Until the day that economics becomes a science, e.g. we are able to build a 100% accurate computer model of the real world which accounts for all variables, and then by adjusting these variables we can observe the outcomes. Forgive me if unlike you I don't place 100% trust in your books on economy.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mars777 on 12/21/2008 11:26:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
One would hope that scientists have taken into account all the various other variables before reaching the conclusion that man is the most significant cause of global warming/climate change


This doesn't make sense. If they "reached the conclusion that man is the most significant cause" they have obviously taken into account some other cause.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By animedude on 12/19/2008 10:39:48 PM , Rating: 4
A more adequate name is fascism v2. The only thing keeping the country together is nationalism.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By foolsgambit11 on 12/19/2008 7:14:17 PM , Rating: 1
Labor is on average about 8% of a U.S., union-manufactured car - usually around $2400. Even if they paid their workers nothing, this car in the U.S., all other costs being equal, would be between $23,900 and $24,400 (depending on if you calculate it by average percentage or average dollar cost).

Obviously, though, all other costs are not equal. But don't blame the $18000 difference between this and the Volt on labor costs.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By foolsgambit11 on 12/20/2008 7:28:18 PM , Rating: 3
I'm going to repost what got downrated above, because there's absolutely no reason to downrate it. Except for perhaps my utter lack of humor in the post, taking what was a snide pot-shot at U.S. manufacturers' labor costs and bothering to refute the smear campaign.

"Labor is on average about 8% of a U.S., union-manufactured car - usually around $2400. Even if they paid their workers nothing, this car in the U.S., all other costs being equal, would be between $23,900 and $24,400 (depending on if you calculate it by average percentage or average dollar cost).

"Obviously, though, all other costs are not equal. But don't blame the $18000 difference between this and the Volt on labor costs."

And I'll add this time that the potential reasons for the difference in cost are myriad, and include development (GM tries to make sure their vehicles will continue to work, China 'appropriates' plans rather than develops), safety equipment (increased material for crash safety, the increased weight leading to increased power requirements, &c, &c), material (subsidized metal, batteries, &c, as well as less metal due to safety standards), and possibly direct subsidy by the Chinese government. Any other reasons people can think of are welcome. But labor is at most about 13% of the difference in price


RE: foriegn auto makers
By omnicronx on 12/19/2008 12:49:32 PM , Rating: 4
Cost 21k (US) or 149,800 yuan
Battery cycles: 2000 cycles
safety issues: they use iron-phosphate-based lithium-ion batteries which are much more stable, although it will limit what they can do in the future as they won't be able to pack as much energy into each cell.

sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3DM
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/12/byd-f3dm-e...

It even has 3 modes of operation:
1.full eletric
2.Series-hybrid mode (gas engine recharges battery when juice runs below a certain percentage, but is not connected directly to the drivetrain.(this is what the volt will have)
3.Parallel hybrid mode which is what we are used to seeing in the prius.(which will not be in the volt, the gas engine in the volt will not directly drive the car)

The only thing is, many sites actually claim it will take 8-9 hours to fully recharge ( on 220v power supply), which is up to 3 hours more than the volt (6-6.5 on a 110v power supply). How long this car will take to recharge on North American power standards is anyones guess.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By MozeeToby on 12/19/2008 1:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
I imagine that if you purchase they car you will have a 220 line run out to your garage. Almost all houses in the US already have 220 for stoves, furnaces, and other large appliances, so it shouldn't be too expensive to run an extra line.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 1:48:37 PM , Rating: 2
It could be that simple or it might cost you $5k to upgrade your homes electrical capacity coming into your property. More than likely older homes will need upgrading. Newer one's maybe, maybe not.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:03:54 PM , Rating: 3
All US homes have 240v. It's the way power is distributed in the US. The only older homes needing upgrading is the ones that have zero power going to them.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:31:06 PM , Rating: 3
Dude, you can't just simply slap in new electrical lines in your house. The service to your property has MUST be able to support the extra current draw that any new devices create. That's why I said what I said. Your home might be able to support your new 220v line ran to your garage or you may need to upgrade the service to your property so that you can run a new 220v to your garage. And upgrading your service to your house is expensive.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By CyborgTMT on 12/20/2008 2:15:54 AM , Rating: 4
I can't believe I have to explain this on a hardware site....

You can install as many 220 lines as you wish, it's amperage that is the issue not the lines themselves. Most older homes have 60 amp service in them. My apartment (rather new building) has 125 amps. I could easily run 3 refrigerators, air conditioning, washer, dryer, and oven and not worry. In the older home you'd be able to run just a few of these at the same time before you trip one of the breakers. But you could run a new line for your car in the older house, you just couldn't charge your car, wash your clothing, cook dinner and run the dryer all at the same time.
BTW if your house has a 60 amp set up, you need to upgrade it anyway. Mostly due to the age of the wiring and fire hazards.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 5:53:11 PM , Rating: 3
It's not the home that will be a problem, it's the power grid up to that point.

Most people plug it in at night and don't need it fully charged within 5 hours. Many given the choice would opt to not even upgrade their garage to a high current 220V circuit because they don't need that rapid recharge capability.

Upgrading the service to your house is not all that expensive for most people compared to a $40K automobile that ought to cost only 2/3rds that.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By omnicronx on 12/19/2008 4:59:02 PM , Rating: 4
Regardless, the chinese figures are 7+ hours with a 220V line. The volt only takes 6-6.5 on a 110V line meaning not only does it recharge faster, but at lower voltage.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By foolsgambit11 on 12/19/2008 7:08:58 PM , Rating: 2
At a lower voltage, but no doubt at a higher amperage. The question to ask is how many watts the batteries can absorb per unit time. Considering this car can go 50% further on a charge, is it any surprise a full charge takes about 50% longer?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 5:54:27 PM , Rating: 2
yes it would be a surprise if 50% more batteries took 50% longer, since it is not expected the limit would be current on a 220V line given the previous figures.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By foolsgambit11 on 12/20/2008 7:57:28 PM , Rating: 2
If the limit were current on 110V lines, it would probably be the limit on 220V lines. They are usually sized to accommodate the same wattage, with 220V lines being proportionately smaller gauge. Remember, too, that charging times are for Chinese homes, not U.S. homes, so you can't compare times based on how U.S. homes are set up with respect to 110V and 220V lines.

But you're right, it would still be unlikely that 50% more battery would take 50% more time to charge. Most of the time on both charges would be below maximum current of the charging system, I'd imagine. So the difference in times would be solely how fast you could get through the bulk charge of the battery, a fairly small part of the charging regimen.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By tjr508 on 12/21/2008 7:48:01 PM , Rating: 3
There seems to be a lot of confusion over the issue on what voltage to charge these cars at.

First off, where are these 220V lines you people keep talking about? Lines ran to homes around the USA are XXX->240/120 if a center tap transformer is used or XXXD->208Y/120 if a 3p transformer is used.

Next, the input voltage of the charging device only determines one thing and one thing only: Gage of wire to be used. (size/type of breaker goes along as well but that would be nitpicking). The input voltage further has no relation to the output voltage of the device (since an internal transformer is likely the first component connected to the power wire) and therefore has no relation to the charging time of the battery.

When they say 'special' charging station, they likely mean either a very expensive power supply connected to a single phase source that would be much too expensive to sell with the car or they could mean a customized power supply set to run off of available three phase power that is not typically found in homes.

Finally, it is always takes longer to charge the second half of the battery's storage because the potential difference is smaller towards the end of the charge. Adding more juice at this point can easily overheat or otherwise damage the battery.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By MrPoletski on 12/22/2008 7:37:03 AM , Rating: 2
A 'special charging station' almost certainly means a 3 phase power source, the kind you'd find in an industrial setting. Fortunately gas station forecourts are exactly the kind of place where you might expect to find 3 phase power being used (along with factories etc).

3 phase power will greatly reduce reactive power considerations and basically provide a much higher current and much more stable current to the batteries allowing them to charge faster.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/28/2008 11:11:38 PM , Rating: 2
"Stable" current is no factor, if average current can be attained without tripping the circuit breakers, a little deviation in max and min current won't be an issue so long as all subcircuits remain within limits.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/28/2008 11:09:48 PM , Rating: 2
You obviously have no grasp of electrical wiring.

No, no, no! They are not ever sized to accomodate the same wattage. please just don't ever post if you don't know WTF you are talking about.

Remember too, that US homes also have 220V. Why are you even posting when you have no grasp of the facts? Are you 14 years old and have no knowledge of anything?

The difference in charge times has to do mostly with the current the circuit can support, up to 80% or so, because up to that point it is efficient enough that heating of the battery pack is within tolerances, beyond which point the temperature of the pack has to be a limitation on how much current is supplied to it.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yahma on 12/19/2008 4:16:19 PM , Rating: 3
I'd like to see this chinese car crash tested. The last chinese car to undergo ADAC crash testing in Germany failed so miserably, that it was said all occupants would be effectively killed in any collision over 30 mph. Less speed would only result in serious injury... haha! Call me when the chinese can make cars as safe as BMW.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Fireshade on 12/22/2008 6:48:31 AM , Rating: 3
@Yahma:
Yes, Chinese cars do not need to adhere to the more stringent safety laws as western cars do.
However, you did not finish your ADAC crash test story.
I think you are referring to the Landwind SUV. Since that crashtest, the manfacturer has strengthened the chassis, and the car now has a test safety of 2 stars on the NCAP tests. This is the same as the new and very western Range Rover (!).

So next time, please tell the whole story, not just a suggestive part ;)


RE: foriegn auto makers
By encia on 12/21/2008 9:26:01 PM , Rating: 2
Prius is a Series/Parallel hybrid i.e. non-USA Prius has an EV switch i.e. “stealth mode” or “golf buggy mode”. Please review Toyota’s HSD.

Prius can be upgraded to a Plug-in Hybrid by changing the drive battery to Li-ion based battery.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By encia on 12/22/2008 1:47:31 AM , Rating: 2
Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_hybrid_vehic...

The Prius employs a "combined hybrid".

"Combined hybrid systems have features of both series and parallel hybrids. They incorporate power-split devices allowing for power paths from the engine to the wheels that can be either mechanical or electrical. The main principle behind this system is the decoupling of the power supplied by the engine (or other primary source) from the power demanded by the driver."

Try again.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By William Gaatjes on 12/20/08, Rating: 0
RE: foriegn auto makers
By Reclaimer77 on 12/19/2008 12:44:30 PM , Rating: 1
Behind ??

This car is crap. 40 mile range, and a seven HOUR recharge ! Are you kidding me ?

I'm not a fan of GM, but the Volt at least allows you to take longer trips. This car is just not viable for 90% of most people.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/19/2008 12:51:10 PM , Rating: 1
It's a 60-mile electric range, and an unknown amount when using gasoline (I did not see it in the linked article). It would assuredly be well over 100 miles, if not over 200 or 300. This is fine for the vast majority of urban and suburban commuters for whom this is designed. This car is far more viable than the Volt for far more people.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 5:55:43 PM , Rating: 2
If we ignore safety and reliability, in which case our present ICE cars would go further and be cheaper too!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By omnicronx on 12/19/2008 12:53:17 PM , Rating: 2
It has a 60 mile rage. Plus it has the option of being gas engine assited and battery assisted similar to the Prius. I don't like to say this but this car is actually more capable than the Volt.

The only thing holding it back is the inferior iron-phosphate-based batteries, which is the reason Toyota and Chevy are taking so long (so they say) to release their new vehicles. These guys may have the positioning now, but if Toyota and GM have the technology for more efficient batteries that last longer and charge faster, they may still have the advantage when their vehicles are released, and into the future.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By theapparition on 12/19/2008 1:06:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It has a 60 mile rage. Plus it has the option of being gas engine assited and battery assisted similar to the Prius. I don't like to say this but this car is actually more capable than the Volt.

It has a 60 mile range in China. If ever imported into the US, the signifigantly stricter safety and emissions laws would certainly ensure that it didn't get anywhere near that.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By glitchc on 12/19/2008 2:14:30 PM , Rating: 2
I'll give you the safety in terms of adding more weight, but emissions? It's an electric car. Even with a 1L engine, how much can it cost add a catalytic converter?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:35:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even with a 1L engine, how much can it cost add a catalytic converter?
Modern catalytic converters are expensive. My 1992 Sentra's catalytic converter cost $700. Newer cars are even more expensive than that.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:36:19 PM , Rating: 3
And most new cars have two.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By foolsgambit11 on 12/19/2008 7:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
And emission control isn't going to affect the all-electric range - unless it adds significant weight, which I can't imagine it does.

But yes, safety is probably a big concern. This car would probably have to weigh a few hundred, maybe a thousand pounds more in the U.S., if prior safety standards in China are any indication.

Although, there was a report this past week that many small cars are much safer than most people think - safer than many large vehicles - thanks to modern safety equipment like side airbags.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By theapparition on 12/22/2008 9:00:57 AM , Rating: 3
While personally I'm not one to harp on safety, I've read many of reports similar to the one you mentioned and all make the same silly argument. They all compare modern small cars to older large cars.

Yes, modern safety equipment like side airbags, abs, stability control and crumple zones all contribute to make a smaller car safer, when compared to a similarly equiped larger car, the larger car always ends up being safer.

But what do I know? I drive smaller fiberglass boxes that will one day probably kill me.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 5:57:01 PM , Rating: 2
Surely you don't think the only emission related item on a modern car in the US is a catalytic converter?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By theapparition on 12/22/2008 8:54:04 AM , Rating: 2
Catalytic converters are not the only requirement for emmssions.

Did you ever think that the engine may need to be designed differently just to pass in the US, even with cats? And engines that pollute less generally produce less power, which means more time to charge on board battery, aka lower fuel economy.

Not so simple now, is it?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By BruceLeet on 12/19/2008 1:48:00 PM , Rating: 1
Are you seriously trying to 1up Warren Buffets judgement?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By gregpet on 12/19/2008 4:03:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you seriously trying to 1up Warren Buffets judgement?


Sure, Buffett invested $3 Billion in GE at $22.50 share - today GE is at $16.35...Nobody is perfect!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By jbartabas on 12/19/2008 4:28:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sure, Buffett invested $3 Billion in GE at $22.50 share - today GE is at $16.35...Nobody is perfect!


Not that I care much about Buffet or his investments, but it seems your little story lacks a conclusion like:

A/ ... and it is certain GE shares will never recover from the current level,
B/ ... and Buffet is in dire need to sell his GE shares right now, at the current value, to be able to retire ... or
C/ none of the above, so your argument does not make much sense.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/19/2008 12:54:51 PM , Rating: 5
While it looks good at first glance, being a Volt-killer at half the price, there's one major caveat that's easy to ignore: It's a Chinese car. Chinese-manufactured goods are not known for their safety or craftsmanship. I'm not saying American vehicles are great, but China is in another realm entirely when it comes to quality.

This car will have a lot to prove before it will be trusted. If it's proven reliable, easily serviced, and affordable, it could very well be marketed to the American consumer.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By DigitalFreak on 12/19/2008 1:22:58 PM , Rating: 4
No doubt. Read the reviews of cars the Chinese make and export for sale in Europe. Total junk.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By SpaceJumper on 12/19/2008 1:29:45 PM , Rating: 1
It will still be better than GM.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 1:49:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It will still be better than GM.
Got any proof of that?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:06:44 PM , Rating: 4
GM nearing bankruptcy. Must mean something is wrong about GM.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By gregpet on 12/19/2008 4:10:42 PM , Rating: 3
It's called legacy costs!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By JoshuaBuss on 12/20/08, Rating: -1
RE: foriegn auto makers
By Sunbird on 12/21/2008 2:08:55 AM , Rating: 4
Korean is not the same as Chinese...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:39:05 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
GM nearing bankruptcy. Must mean something is wrong about GM.
And what does that have to do with the previous posters comparison of quality between GM and a Chinese automaker.

PS - Is everyone this retarded nowadays?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Bubbacub on 12/19/2008 7:00:06 PM , Rating: 1
to be brutally honest, american and chinese cars are both crap.

if you weren't so fixated on patriotically supporting inefficient and outdated companies you could enjoy driving high quality european cars (that have suspension that lets you go round corners! wow!)

p.s i'm from the UK, we had British Leyland etc. which was as bad as the Big 3 are in the states now - after decades of government bailouts they finally went bust and the few profitable bits of the company went on and most of the car plants are still going with new owners and new profitable designs. its a tough pill to swallow but the US needs to let some its industrial dead weight die


RE: foriegn auto makers
By mindless1 on 12/20/2008 6:02:39 PM , Rating: 2
You might consider getting out more often, it's not 1985 anymore and there aren't so many differences that really matter between more european and american cars built to the same target buyer, except possibly price.

How easily the obviousness of the truth eludes some people. On any busy road in america there are plenty of american cars defying your stereotype. Interestingly enough, most of them end up having a lower TCO even if they have an extra repair or two during their lifespan.

Oh, but you wrote "high quality" so really you may mean only luxuriously priced cars versus something costing barely more than 1/2 as much? There's a reason the market has both types, blame the buyers for creating that market if you want to turn your nose up at what cost-cutting does to any product we might buy.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Ringold on 12/21/2008 2:11:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
p.s i'm from the UK, we had British Leyland etc. which was as bad as the Big 3 are in the states now - after decades of government bailouts they finally went bust and the few profitable bits of the company went on and most of the car plants are still going with new owners and new profitable designs. its a tough pill to swallow but the US needs to let some its industrial dead weight die


There are those in America who know this, and point it out, but they are ridiculed as selfish, heartless, simply being anti-labor or outright stupid for exacerbating what some think would be some huge economic calamity. The UK is a fine example of a country that has survived, and prospered from, the passage from a manufacturing based economy to a service industry based one.

We (Americans) could collectively learn a lot by looking across the pond. Basically every issue we face today, Europe has faced in the past. Every policy option we debate today has probably been tried by one European nation or another, and long enough ago that results are now clear. France doesn't have mass radiation sickness from its nuclear power, the Swiss don't die in mass from lack of health care due to its market and tax-credit based health care, Ireland hasn't devolved in to a mini-Somalia due to free market reforms, German's dont work for Somalian wages because Germany lacks (afaik) a minimum wage, but France has had high average unemployment due to restrictive labor rules and heavy government control of the economy. We could learn a lot, if we wanted to. (I don't think we want to)


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Penti on 12/22/2008 1:46:33 AM , Rating: 3
UK has faired fairly well (their industrial output has actually been lowered not just the people who work in it) but they still has a shortage in exported goods, thus not a perfect trade balance. Just as US though, but not as large trade deficit. US trade deficit is going on for something like 3 decades now.

An export oriented goods-exporting nation like Sweden has faired better, we have pretty much a service oriented economy but with no deficit in the balance of goods and we've actually been able to have our industrial output grown the same time less and less people is employed in industrial jobs. Most of the service sector works for the industrial giants and it's suppliers though and we aren't really a financial center as UK is. Oddly enough though we did actually manage to have an trade surplus the same time we had our last credit crunch or mayor financial crisis in the 90's. Even though production fell and a lot of people did loose their jobs for a couple of years we actually went out of that stronger then before.

As to regarding health care, it's fully tax based and publicly run here, yet it's still costs less then what the US pays, the thing is also that a waitress making 84 SEK or costs the employer about 15 dollars an hour incl taxes still has the same health care "insurance" as a plumber making 168 SEK or costs the employer 30 dollars. As do people making no money at all. 9.2% of BNP where spent on health care 2005, in US 15.2% of BNP where spent. Yet 45.1% is spent by the government. In money per capita we spent 3 727 dollars when you spent $6 350 dollars in the US. In terms of purchasing power parity US government spent more then the Swedish. Yet our coverage is universal.

You always hear conservative people in the US even Swedes who have moved there years ago thinking that universal coverage actually costs more, but it really doesn't need to. You already has the most expensive health care system in the world. If you want privately founded health care then go to China. It's really some sort of indoctrination and most seems to know nothing about the country in which they live or the problems it has. That is really reflected in the media as those people are just as clueless as everyone else. Those who are aware of the costs just complain about the government health care and social security programs and blames UAW and others for the high costs of labor.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By tjr508 on 12/21/2008 8:03:05 PM , Rating: 2
According to consumer reports, European cars sold in the US have been dead last in reliability for over a decade when compared to Japanese and American offerings...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Bubbacub on 12/22/2008 6:36:45 AM , Rating: 2
consumer reports are based entirely on customer expectation:

i.e. if you expect utter sh*t and get mediocrity you will score higher than a car from which you expect excellence but only obtain good results. at the end of the day one car is mediocre and one is good - the beamer isn't the mediocre one.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By nomagic on 12/19/2008 1:54:06 PM , Rating: 2
Are you kidding?

I still remember that I read a car review, in which they car reviewer said: "This Chinese Car received 1 star safety rating only because there isn't a 0 star rating."

Even Korean cars have way better quality...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Screwballl on 12/19/2008 1:56:42 PM , Rating: 3
The top 5 quality "mid size" cars in the US according to JD Power:

5. Volkswagen Passat
4. Toyota Camry
3. Ford Fusion
2. Mitsubishi Galant
1. Chevrolet Malibu

Out of the top 10, 4 are GM products.

That sure beats the hell out of your "better than GM" Comment.

For SUVs, Chrysler holds 3 of the top 10 with the Durango at #1.

When looking at the "Big 3", these 3 combined have more top 10 vehicles in almost every class than all the other manufacturers combined (Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mitsubishi, BMW, Mercedes, and the rest).


RE: foriegn auto makers
By SpaceJumper on 12/19/2008 3:07:35 PM , Rating: 2
They will drop down to one star 2 years later. JD Power has nothing to do with long term reliability, they rated on the initial quality. If the vehicle is well polish and clean during the assessment, it will get 5 stars. As I go to the showroom and impressed that the Japanese vehicles do have better initial quality than American vehicles.
Chinese vehicles may be like the Japanese or Korean a long time ago, but the Chinese vehicles WILL get better than the American vehicles due to the more strict engineering quality and manufacturing quality control, and no UAW. Chinese workers will suffer from a low paying job, because we are always looking for low prices.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:43:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Chinese vehicles may be like the Japanese or Korean a long time ago, but the Chinese vehicles WILL get better than the American vehicles due to the more strict engineering quality and manufacturing quality control, and no UAW.


Huh? Are we talking about the same China? You know, the ones with corrupt figures in high locations who skimp where they can, while in the process killing hundreds, thousands, if not tens of thousands of ppl?

Time after time, there are recalls on Chinese made products. Tainted baby formula, taitned dog food, etc. How about concrete structures in China that were missing rebar support. If they have more strict engineering quality and manufacturing quality control, explain these situations?

If I had the choice of being shot in the head over driving a Chinese car, I'd take the shot in the head. I'd die right away with the shot. A small wire while driving the Chinese car would probably come loose on a speed bump, fall into the gas tank, cause a fire, and burn me alive.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:28:25 PM , Rating: 2
Hear hear! chinese cars are not much better than the Soviet Cars once sold in the US. Remember the yugo? It sported a 2-stroke engine, and was made practically out of tin foil? Yeah, chinese cars may look good, but I wouldnt be surprised if they were made out of tinfoil and a few rusty screws scrounged out of someones basement.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Aries1470 on 12/20/2008 2:51:53 AM , Rating: 1
Start of Rant.

Wow! Where did you get that from?! Soviet cars? Are you dreamin! Get real. They would not have been allowed in the U.S.!
Yugo was the MODEL it was made by Zastava in the country once called Yugoslavia. Shees, what some people write. And hey, no one FORCED anyone to buy them.

Sovet cars actually were spartan/ utilitarian, but would RUN in winter without much of issues. Same as the OLD VW Beatle, that would run in Germany when a Merc or a Beamer would fail to start due to cold back in the 80's....

Now go and educate yourself 1st, before ppl start believing the crap you dish out.

End of Rant


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:29:26 PM , Rating: 2
You do know that these "quality" reviews are based off only 90 day testing. Also they don't test every car that's sold in the US either.

I take anything JD Power says with a grain of salt.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:46:21 PM , Rating: 2
They also have 3 year statistics too (Vehicle Dependability Study).

Top brands
1. Lexus
2. Mercury
3. Cadillac
4. Toyota
5. Acura

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 4:47:38 PM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah. Half of the top 10 are American brands.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:30:22 PM , Rating: 2
hmm, to people that dont know much about cars... Mercury is Ford. Yeah, Ford is in the top 5 when it comes to reliability.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By kmmatney on 12/19/2008 7:50:35 PM , Rating: 2
??? Mercury is ranked #2, while Ford is #14 - but they are the same cars!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By dubyadubya on 12/19/2008 5:45:33 PM , Rating: 2
JDP ratings mean nothing.
Example: The Volkswagen Passat is rated #1
Volkswagen's vehicles seem nicely built when new but are scrap metal long before almost other manufactures. European vehicles in general are way less reliable than the Big Three's offerings and have been for years. BMW and Volvo are the only exceptions IMO. They still make a decent product though not the best.

Rant, I can't believe how blind the American public is. Years ago Toyota and Honda made vehicles that were twice the quality as the big three. This is not the case any longer. The big three make way better Vehicles now than they ever have before. Toyota and Honda still make good vehicles but they are not nearly as well made as they once were.

How do I know this? I work on them for a living and have for close to 30 years.

Now this may piss off some people but I rate the manufactures reliability so. Top down, I may have forgot to mention some minor players so forgive me if I have.

Toyota, Lexus, Scion
Ford, Lincoln Mercury, Mazda, Volvo
Honda, Acura
Hyundai
Nissan, Infinity
GM all divisions
Chrysler all divisions
Other Japanese offerings
European offerings except below

And way at the bottom Mercedes and Volkswagen. Pure Junk IMHO

Feel free to flame me if you like but I call them as I see them. The American public has their heads up their ass.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 6:53:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
JDP ratings mean nothing.
And your anecdotal evidence means more than industry accepted, statistical evidence?

PS - LOL!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By dubyadubya on 12/19/2008 11:28:41 PM , Rating: 1
Statistics can say anything they want them to. Because of this statistics are of little use in real life.

A vehicle better be near trouble free for the first 5 years not counting normal maintenance or its junk.

The only way to tell how reliable a vehicle will be is over an extended time with many miles driven. JDP does neither it's all smoke and mirrors. Drive a vehicle for 10 years and 200K or more. Then take a look at the cost to keep it running and how many times it has let you down. The better Japanese vehicles will have no problem passing this test. Nether will the better part of the big three.

You will not find many if any European cars that pass this test. Main reason being parts cost and serviceability. The European manufacturers seem to make the easiest repairs hard raising labor costs. They also have no clue what road salt can to to fasteners etc. Take a Volkswagen with a 100K on it. It would be easier to replace all 4 suspension corners than it would be to remove the brake calipers to replace the brake pads and rotors. It's the backward engineering that uses 6 mm allen heads on a 8 mm bolt. Seems the European's can fuck up the simplest things.

Drive what you like. If its junk its no skin off my nose.
There is no way I'm going to blow smoke up my customers asses and tell them to buy vehicles that are unreliable. Reason being I make more money maintaining vehicles than I could ever make bolting more unreliable parts on unreliable vehicles.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:47:30 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A

Thanks to yahma for finding this video. Credit for the vid finding goes to him. Chinese cars, better than GM? HAHAHA. dont make me laugh. Too late..

Chevy Malibu Crash test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bippxNeIuig&feature...

Ford Fusion Crash test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTCVjh8BgUQ&feature...

Ok. Now, which one would you like to be in an accident in? Which one would you not for a million dollars drive in?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:50:53 PM , Rating: 2
oh and for comparison, this is a test of the 03 expedition, which is what I drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxJAABeFeUE&feature...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Radnor on 12/19/2008 2:58:41 PM , Rating: 4
Chinese cars here in Europe ? Few, far-between and people ussually don't touch them with a 10 foot pole.

Anyway, they ussually don't pass the emissions and security tests to be sold here in Europe anyway.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By wordsworm on 12/19/2008 2:49:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'm not saying American vehicles are great, but China is in another realm entirely when it comes to quality.


hmmm... do you know some of the acronyms for FORD? There are plenty: found on road dead. Fixed or repaired daily. They earned that rap. I saw one catch on fire. Luckily it wasn't in the garage when that happened - no one got hurt, and it was easy for the fire department to put it out.

As for Chinese craftsmanship, the Lenovo brand has a reputation as an excellent laptop - though they're not to my taste. They also seem to have this wall that's been around for over two thousand years that can be seen from space.

Why it is that there are so many anti-Chinese here is beyond me. The hatred is palatable.

Sure, if you pay the least amount of money for a given product, chances are good that it's not of the highest quality. Why would anyone think it would be different? People buy Chinese goods because they're extremely cheap.

Truth is, for quality cars one goes to Sweden, Germany, Japan, or S. Korea. I'm sure I'm missing out on a few European companies, but the US is pretty much out of that picture. I see more French Peugeot out on the streets in S. Korea and Indonesia than all American cars put together.

People just like to cast stones at them to help them forget how screwed up their own country is.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/19/2008 3:35:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As for Chinese craftsmanship, the Lenovo brand has a reputation as an excellent laptop - though they're not to my taste. They also seem to have this wall that's been around for over two thousand years that can be seen from space.
Obviously I'm exempting the semiconductor & PC industries from this. Far, far too many computers and motherboards of good quality are made in China. Of course, few are engineered in the PRC, with the vast majority of designs from chipset up to the factory coming from Taiwan or the U.S. I'd hardly attribute this to mainland Chinese craftsmanship.

Note I'm not anti-Chinese or even making a statement about the politics of the PRC. Chinese-made (that is, mainland Chinese) products, due to their cheapness (as you pointed out) are largely known for poor quality and frequent lack of concern for safety. If we can't trust them to make toys or milk, can we really trust them to make cars?

American cars are hardly out of the picture. It's true that we have fallen behind, but all three companies make good models. Alas, not all of their models are good for varying reasons, be it reliability, safety, fuel economy, value, or lifespan. We do make some of the worst cars (unless, of course, you consider China), but we also make some of the best. I will say that the Japanese are the only ones with a clear and indisputable advantages.

Personally, if the Ford Fusion Hybrid gets over 38 MPG when it is actually released, it will be my next car purchase. Toyota and Honda make some of the best cars right now, and the Civic Hybrid and Prius are both very practical and affordable. The Fusion isn't far behind, and looks much better and will probably be a more enjoyable ride.

The Volt would be good if ends up costing $15,000 less and it were convenient for me (or most Americans) to plug in. But it won't and it isn't, so I don't consider it viable.

quote:
I saw one catch on fire.

Automotive Spontaneous Combustion. It's hilarious in concept, but rather worthless anecdotal evidence, the way you've phrased it.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By lco45 on 12/19/2008 8:53:54 PM , Rating: 2
I think American cars are out of picture, at least outside the US.
Previous poster is right about the types of foreign cars you see on Asian streets. I've been to South Korea about a dozen times, and have seen all makes of European cars, but I can't recall ever seeing an American car (unless you count GM Daewoo ;-)
In Europe too, where I lived for 3 years in UK and France, you see plenty of Japanese and Korean cars, but very rarely see American cars.
Mind you, I think people don't realise that the days of the unreliable American car are long gone. Most American cars are excellent nowadays, and reliability is practically a non-issue in all modern cars compared to those of 20 or 40 years ago.

Luke


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/19/2008 11:53:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think American cars are out of picture, at least outside the US.
To some extent this is true, but the U.S. market is huge. If they dominate here, that's good enough for them and for us. It would be nice if we were exporting more cars, but right now I'll settle for the city of Detroit not facing Armageddon.

I think the inaccurate, negative perception of our cars that you mentioned is a big part of the problem. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all have good models that in many cases ought to be very competitive overseas, but aren't.

Admittedly, if our workers, both at the top and bottom of the chain, made anywhere near their Asian counterparts, our cars could be competitive by price alone. If the Big 3 had focused on fuel economy more, they would be for sure. But if they survive all this I do think they will regroup and become competitive once again.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By wordsworm on 12/20/2008 1:13:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's hilarious in concept, but rather worthless anecdotal evidence, the way you've phrased it.


Wouldn't have been funny had it burned down your house. Fortunately, though, it wasn't in the garage, and the only damage was to the vehicle and its contents. The guy started up his van, there was a small explosion in the engine, and within minutes there was a pool of fire under it with a slick of oil making water ineffective at putting it out. Granted, it was a 25 year old van...

The thing about craftsmanship, of any kind, is that you have to pay adequate money for the good stuff. This is the same for Chinese goods as it is for any other.

As for bad milk, what country hasn't had issues over food? I seem to recall salmonella in Jack-in-the-Box burgers. Toys also have had some issues. Considering that the majority of toys now come from China, it should come as no surprise that there are glitches.

Personally, I wouldn't consider purchasing an American car. It's not for anti-Americanism. Heck, with Obama I already feel a lot less animosity for the states. But rather the reputation of the automotive industry. Will these Chinese made cars receive a similar or worse reception is hard to tell. Simply stating that it's Chinese and therefore apt to be of poor quality is ignorant to say the least.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By kyp275 on 12/20/2008 1:25:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Granted, it was a 25 year old van...


well... not to say 25 yr old vans will always burst into flame, but I'd say guess that age probably has more to do with the fire than anything else.

quote:
Personally, I wouldn't consider purchasing an American car. It's not for anti-Americanism. Heck, with Obama I already feel a lot less animosity for the states. But rather the reputation of the automotive industry


I don't know why that should have anything to do with your feeling towards the US. Obama hasn't done anything yet, and it's still the same 300 million people in the US as yesterday. However, moving back on topic...

quote:
Simply stating that it's Chinese and therefore apt to be of poor quality is ignorant to say the least.


but it's ok to say that it's American and therefore the cars suck? You'd judge the entire line-up across the US auto industry based on reputation, but say it's ignorant to do the same with Chinese products?


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/20/2008 3:15:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know why that should have anything to do with your feeling towards the US. Obama hasn't done anything yet, and it's still the same 300 million people in the US as yesterday. However, moving back on topic...
Since Bush won twice, there's a commonly held foreign view that Americans like to elect right-wing warmongers and that we're racist. Even if Obama's presidency ends up being ineffective, his election has drastically altered the world's opinion of us.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By kyp275 on 12/20/2008 6:10:59 PM , Rating: 2
I know, I suppose my intended sarcasm wasn't very apparent, my point is it's ridiculous to judge and base your opinion of a nation of 300 million people based on one person.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By wordsworm on 12/20/2008 10:32:49 PM , Rating: 2
Think of it like this: Germany became a much friendlier nation after Adolph Hitler was out of the office. Thankfully, Bush wasn't as effective as Hitler was.

Truth be told, more than half of my immediate family are Americans. While my mother and I are Canadians, my brother, father, and sister are all Americans. Most of us live in Canada.

A leader reflects on its nation. What's a real shame is that Bush and his cronies are going to get away with some of the worst crimes against humanity, by a western power, enacted since Vietnam. I simply can't see Obama going after them and bringing justice to the world. But at least he seems interested in ending the horrors at Guantanamo Bay, holding real trials for those imprisoned. My worry is that, though 99% of them probably had no violent urges against the US prior to incarceration, they probably all hate America with a passion equal to the Jews hating the Nazis.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Yawgm0th on 12/20/2008 3:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wouldn't have been funny had it burned down your house. Fortunately, though, it wasn't in the garage, and the only damage was to the vehicle and its contents. The guy started up his van, there was a small explosion in the engine, and within minutes there was a pool of fire under it with a slick of oil making water ineffective at putting it out. Granted, it was a 25 year old van...
I just wanted a more in-context elaboration, as you've done here. The way it was phrased before it seemed to imply it started on fire just randomly.

In any case, this story is hardly indicative of the quality of the van. A highly doubt an design flaw could really be blamed for this.

quote:
The thing about craftsmanship, of any kind, is that you have to pay adequate money for the good stuff. This is the same for Chinese goods as it is for any other.

Absolutely. The vast majority of Chinese goods are cheap, especially their cars.

quote:
Personally, I wouldn't consider purchasing an American car.

Neither will I, until about 2010. If it's going to recover, that's when our cars will be attractive again. Right now, there really are few, if any compelling American cars.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:55:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
As for Chinese craftsmanship, the Lenovo brand has a reputation as an excellent laptop - though they're not to my taste. They also seem to have this wall that's been around for over two thousand years that can be seen from space.


Cause they bought the PC Division of IBM for $1.2 billion. Thus the reputation came to be. Before that, Lenovo didn't even make laptops.

Great laptops? Hardly. There's a reason IBM got rid of their Thinkpad crap. They fcking sucked. Same reason IBM got rid of their hard drive sector.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Noliving on 12/19/2008 4:25:10 PM , Rating: 1
Oh for the love of god the wall can't be seen from space.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By marsbound2024 on 12/19/2008 9:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
This comment has some merit. The Great Wall of China can't really be seen with the unaided eye if you actually do your research. But, truth be told, you can see anything from space with a good enough scope (or a camera with a great zoom lens).


RE: foriegn auto makers
By dubyadubya on 12/19/2008 6:12:03 PM , Rating: 2
What about first on race day. You for got that one.
GMC, gota mechanic coming, garage mans companion.

Point being non of these were earned as you say. Just idiot talk.

I do agree China can make good stuff but people want cheap.
Cheap got China started in the first place.

Your smoking something if you think Peugeot makes better cars than the big three. I just laugh when I get one in my shop as parts fall off faster than you can bolt then on. Pure crap!!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:34:44 PM , Rating: 2
I drive a couple fords, and they are definetely good quality vehicles. My expedition turned 6 years old last week, and I have had no major problems with it.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By lco45 on 12/19/2008 8:56:54 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, I had a Peugeot which had plenty of problems, but my Jeep Grand Cherokee has been rock solid.

Luke


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Buspar on 12/20/2008 3:48:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Chinese-manufactured goods are not known for their safety or craftsmanship. I'm not saying American vehicles are great, but China is in another realm entirely when it comes to quality.

Some historical perspective: they said the same thing about Japanese made products in the 1950's. It's fair to say Japan back then and China now have the same dedication to continual improvement and innovation in their products, but Japan didn't have nearly as much manpower or resources China does.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chinese car manufacturers manage a fair bit of US market penetration in 10 years.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By jconan on 12/20/2008 12:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
Japan had Deming and quality assurance and control programs and industrial engineers. That together brought about total quality assurance. As for China I have yet to find any development in the same field as Japan. It will be hard to find China coming out with quality assurance and control issues resolved in the next few years.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Amiga500 on 12/19/2008 1:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
even China

Unfortunately, with the way things are going in Western schools/colleges/universities (European and American), soon we'll all be proud to get near China, never mind beat them.

Even per head they are chucking out double the number of hard skilled (engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc) graduates... In absolute numbers they dwarf every other country, and indeed probably outnumber both Europe and the US put together.

Meanwhile our bunch of students are mostly pussying out of a hard subject and picking shite like social anthropology.

Education in the Western world is FUBAR... big time.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Spuke on 12/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: foriegn auto makers
By Jedi2155 on 12/19/2008 4:14:23 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed they do. Although not as much as what some numbers might suggest.

From a December 2005 analysis:
quote:
United States annually produces 137,437 engineers with at least a bachelor's degree while India produces 112,000 and China 351,537


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...


RE: foriegn auto makers
By jithvk on 12/22/2008 1:56:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
United States annually produces 137,437 engineers with at least a bachelor's degree while India produces 112,000 and China 351,537


These figures are most probably wrong. I live in India, and i know that the 112K mentioned above no where near reality. I live in one of the small states in India and even in my state, there are almost 50,000 seats. 50 percent of them is Government funded and the rest is self payed seat. For the government funded seats, you just have to pay nearly $50 per year as your tuition fee. So there is great competition and only the most brilliant get in.

Same is the situation of almost all the states.(at least in south India, where i live.Not sure of the North though.) Most of the bigger states have seats from 100,000 to 150,000 and smaller states have nearly 50k seats.

Even if only 50% of all the students pass out as engineers at the end of 4th year, there are at least 500K to 600K engineers graduating from India each year.

Don`t know where those figures come from.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Jedi2155 on 12/22/2008 5:36:24 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe they were being mean and cut 1/4th of the Engineers.

http://neweconomist.blogs.com/new_economist/2006/1...

quote:
India still produces plenty of engineers, nearly 400,000 a year at last count. But their competence has become the issue. A study commissioned by a trade group, the National Association of Software and Service Companies, or Nasscom, found only one in four engineering graduates to be employable. The rest were deficient in the required technical skills, fluency in English or ability to work in a team or deliver basic oral presentations.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By rcc on 12/19/2008 5:00:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Education in the Western world is FUBAR... big time.


Can't argue that much. But seriously, all they need to do is scrap the "No child left behind" and reinstitute the "No child held back". We'll be back in business in a few years.

As long as liberals, which includes most academia, insists on the lowest common denominator standard, crap education is what you end up with.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By wordsworm on 12/20/2008 1:28:35 AM , Rating: 2
Wasn't it a conservative government that initiated the "No Child Left Behind" strategy?

The liberal agenda is giving education to everyone. Giving it to mentally handicapped and geniuses alike rather than restricting it to those who have money for private institutions. Blaming liberals for a conservative initiative... I suppose it isn't surprising.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By marsbound2024 on 12/19/2008 9:56:43 PM , Rating: 2
This is probably because China has probably around four times as many people living there.

Oh and the main reason education is "fubar" in the United States is because it costs an arm and a leg. You can take out loans, but if you don't succeed the first time then you are pretty much screwed. In my opinion, education should not cost as much as it does. No school should charge tuition more than $10,000 a year in my opinion. Not even Harvard. But of course for this to work schools would need more government subsidies.

I think we all should face it. America will absolutely need to adopt some socialistic practices in order to afford to give its citizens free or very inexpensive healthcare and inexpensive education.

America today doesn't provide a good many opportunities for getting out of the class you were born into. If you read some articles, you will find that the vast majority of individuals will end up in the same class their parents were in.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By Amiga500 on 12/20/2008 8:55:05 AM , Rating: 2
This is probably because China has probably around four times as many people living there.


You do know what "per head" means right?

Agreed on paying for education. It is ridiculous that many who are good enough, can't afford to.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By gregpet on 12/19/2008 4:07:55 PM , Rating: 1
First lesson I ever learned...If it's too good to be true...It probably is...
It has been reported that it cost GM $750,000,000 to develop the Volt. I seriously doubt that some no-name chinese company has developed anything nearly as efficient, reliable or safe as the volt. It may come to a shock but communist don't always tell the truth!


RE: foriegn auto makers
By JoshuaBuss on 12/19/2008 9:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
They about as no-name to the Chinese as Lincoln is to Americans..


RE: foriegn auto makers
By nugundam93 on 12/21/2008 1:42:10 AM , Rating: 2
getting a mass-produced plug-in hybrid ain't worth it if your crumple zones include everything from the front bumper up to the B-pillar.

let's wait to see more crash test vids of this. the chery crash test vids freak me out since they seem to be good strawberry jam-makers, and to think i'm seeing a lot of them now here in the philippines.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By SiliconAddict on 12/21/2008 1:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
The difference is due to American safety regulations your call probably won't blow up in the first 50,000 miles.

I would trust a Chinese based electric car as far as I could throw it.


RE: foriegn auto makers
By MrPoletski on 12/22/2008 8:44:38 AM , Rating: 2
The US car industry just needs a kick up the posterior.

Their market has changed very radically very quickly AND they are facing issues with potential buyers unable to attain credit for their purchase.

The answer for them is a dirt, dirt cheap vehicle that gets you from A to B, no frills. It needs to be safe and clean and cheap. The smart car is a good example, or the good old fashioned British Mini. Dispelling the myth that small cars are unsafe needs to be done too.

Lets just hope their bailout works, because if it doesn't... well you don't wanna know.

I'm very pessimistic about this current situation. I say enjoy the lifestyle you've got while you're still able to live it because we are all going to experience hardship we have never seen nor even contemplated before.


BYD and GM sharing parts
By Screwballl on 12/19/2008 12:10:17 PM , Rating: 3
This is actually a rushed and modified version of the Chevy Volt. A news story from Sept 2007 show that BYD is sharing some parts with GM.

quote:
China's BYD to deliver molding products to GM
Source : gasgoo.com [Posted on Sept 18,2007 at 9:2]
Beijing BYD Auto Mould Co. will deliver a batch of auto molding products to General Motors in the near future. The molding products will be shipped to GM's global operations in China, Europe and North America, Chinese media reported today.

Earlier this year, BYD Auto has signed a 150 mln yuan (US$19.96 mln) contract with an American molding company and some Chinese molding companies that provide General Motors with high-quality molding products.

Prior to the GM contract, Beijing BYD Auto has made auto molding products for Ford's Landrover and Chrysler.


Since it has been at least a year who knows how many other parts have been shared or modeled in the same fashion?

There are some pictures of the BYD at http://gasgoo.com/auto-news.html




RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By therealnickdanger on 12/19/2008 12:16:37 PM , Rating: 2
Awesome:

quote:
The Chinese automaker has said it will export its F3DM to the United States by 2010. The F3DM electric hybrid model is set to make its global debut at the Detroit auto show next month.


RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 1:18:10 PM , Rating: 2
How many of you guys will buy one once it shows up here?


RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By DigitalFreak on 12/19/2008 1:20:40 PM , Rating: 2
Hell no. I'll let someone else try out this death machine first.


RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By SpaceJumper on 12/19/2008 1:32:10 PM , Rating: 2
I will definitely buy one for US$20,000. My everyday driving is about 20 - 40 miles.


RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 3:57:33 PM , Rating: 2
Good luck with that. Bet your everyday driving will go to about 0 miles, when this car blows up on you.


RE: BYD and GM sharing parts
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:37:50 PM , Rating: 2
When you get in a fender bender, and the car is accordianed because someone rear enged you going 5 mph... Then you can talk to me. For 20,000 USD Id buy a Ford Fusion, or Chevy Malibu for a little more.


i won't hold my breath
By dome1234 on 12/19/2008 3:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
well it has to start somewhere somehow, volt killer? I doubt so. Korean cars weren't well made before, but now they're not too bad. It'll be domestic, maybe a generation or two before you see it across the pacific.

you can find poor quality cars everywhere, ever own an alpha romeo? To allow import it needs to conform to whatever safety standards the target countries have. If it doesn't, deny it, simple.

I'm all for the competition.




RE: i won't hold my breath
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 4:00:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm all for the competition.


So am I, until the losing side asks the government for bailout money. Blaming it on economy. Pfff...they were losing money before.


RE: i won't hold my breath
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:40:57 PM , Rating: 2
True. But ford was within a year of profitability, and GM probably wasnt far behind. If you havent noticed, car sales have plummeted 30-50% on average. Kind of hard to stay in buisness when people dont buy teh cars. didn tyou hear, Honda motor company is cutting hundreds of thousands of jobs due to the economic conditions being worse than expected? You must not do very much research.


RE: i won't hold my breath
By rudolphna on 12/19/2008 7:42:58 PM , Rating: 2
Kind of ironic, but my spelling errors are due to my keyboard needing new batteries, and skipping certain keystrokes.


RE: i won't hold my breath
By Screwballl on 12/21/2008 1:00:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So am I, until the losing side asks the government for bailout money. Blaming it on economy. Pfff...they were losing money before.


You really have no clue.

The big 3 had a decent amount of profit and income before the economy turned. Ford is using its previously untapped credit lines which is why they are not asking for any money (yet). GM is asking for the most because they tapped their credit lines to get the Volt up and running and ready for the road by late 2009.

Toyota and job cuts

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2008...
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D953P...

Honda is making cuts

http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?s=8719168
http://article.wn.com/view/2008/12/13/Need_to_know...

Hyundai and Kia cuts

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/03/business/hy...

Harley Davidson motorcycle cuts

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/04/17/harley-da...
http://www.yorkdailyrecord.com/ci_8966179?source=r...

ALL automotive related companies are making cuts, not just cars and trucks but motorcycle and scooters and so on. Some are starting with production, some with just hours, some are letting go employees. This has nothing to do with bailouts or American companies, this is happening worldwide.


RE: i won't hold my breath
By Spuke on 12/22/2008 1:44:20 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota announced their first loss in 70 years.

http://tinyurl.com/7y4tda


Can't pass the crash tests............
By RoberTx on 12/19/2008 4:28:07 PM , Rating: 2
Can anybody name one Chinese car maker that has a car that can pass the simplest crash test?




RE: Can't pass the crash tests............
By marsbound2024 on 12/19/2008 9:59:21 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like the Chinese don't remotely attempt to account for occupant safety when "engineering" their vehicles. I don't think China has designed its automobiles to be fit for use in heavily industrialized nations throughout Europe and in the Americas. Even though it is rapidly changing, drivers in China are more likely to hit a rickshaw or motorcycle than another vehicle. This is the only reason I could even try to attempt to justify inadequate safety design.


By RoberTx on 12/20/2008 12:52:37 AM , Rating: 2
The reason I brought it up was I did a little research on it and found that a German car testing service, can't remember the outfit, said that no Chinese car they have tested would meet even the most lax crash criteria. Shortly after that a spokesman for the organization said that a Chinese businessman tried to bribe the organization's boss to change the results so the cars could be sold in Europe. When that failed the testing company was subjected to cyber attacks from the Chinese military. It cost them millions. Ultimately the Chinese said their cars were built for safe Asian drivers, not reckless westerners.


RE: Can't pass the crash tests............
RE: Can't pass the crash tests............
By RoberTx on 12/22/2008 1:18:18 PM , Rating: 2
I have to admit that those cars faired better than the other Chinese cars I have seen in crash tests, most of which wadded up like aluminum foil. Or were these special "crash test" cars?


By hxa on 12/23/2008 12:13:45 AM , Rating: 2
Special "crash test" cars? I have no a word to your forejudgment. Maybe you can call EuroNCAP and get some informations on "How they got those special crash test cars?".


Here's a fcking idea!!!
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 1:32:49 PM , Rating: 2
Why do all these companies look towards plug-in hybrid cars.

Here's my idea. Replaceable batteries. Running out of charge? Drive into a battery station and get another set.

The only problems I'd see is battery wear. Who gets stuck with that bill of battery replacements? As the batteries would get swapped in and out of different cars, would the drivers have a monthly/yearly fee or would the battery stations get stuck replacing them?

The car manufacturers wouldn't get stuck with that, as the cars they sell will come with new batteries. If it's a monthly/yearly fee for the driver, then those who purchased new cars could be exempt from the fee for X amount of time.

I'd lean more towards government intervention in such a case. Tax the vehicle owners, then turn around and give these battery stations tax breaks for battery replacements.




RE: Here's a fcking idea!!!
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/19/2008 1:50:25 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, "fcking" all right!

Let's see, back that car up to the refueling bay here and let me replace the several hundred pounds of batteries in the car you just bought for these old junkers. Minimum labor charge is $60, to boot. refueling requires an attendant. These are not AA like in your Wii remotes.

I don't replace my propane with the rusty old tanks at Home Depot, why would I replace my new batteries with crap when I can just drive around and they will recharge?

Your fcking idea sounds like you want to use fuel cells... just add hydrogen.

Batteries are HEAVY!


RE: Here's a fcking idea!!!
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 2:29:57 PM , Rating: 1
Did I say we'd be using the tech we have now, which of course isn't built to be easily replaceable. A battery in an ipod is small, but guess what? Not meant to be replaced, so yes, it's a pain in the ass to do.

If you redesign the batteries and the way it's installed, you can have a hell of an easier time doing it. Imagine the battery is more of a large plate that gets installed under your car. You swing a pallet jack under and prop up the battery. Once that's done, you input the commands in the onboard computer (as hybrids have this anyways), and the battery ejects. Move the pallet jack out and swing in another pallet jack with a new battery. Position it, jack up the battery, and input the command to install the new battery. With such a system, I can see a battery swap take as long as filling up the gas tank of an SUV.

With advancements in computers and robotics, you could just make the whole process automated. You pull up and press a button on your onboard computer and it'll wirelessly communicate to the battery stations computers. A built-in lift at the station will pop up and your computer will eject the battery. The lift drops down underground and the battery will get pushed off. A new battery is pushed onto the lift. The lift then laser aligns the battery and connects it up. The onboard computer installs the battery. Pay your bill and off you go.

I'm not looking at what we have now, but we can have.


RE: Here's a fcking idea!!!
By afkrotch on 12/19/2008 2:32:36 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not looking at what we have now, but what we can have.

God, I hate having no edit on this site sometimes.


RE: Here's a fcking idea!!!
By jimbojimbo on 12/19/2008 2:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
The batteries in these cars aren't like a AA size battery. You do realize how many hundreds of pounds these packs weigh? I'd like to see the full server service attendant that can pick one up and toss in another without any problems, especially into non-standardized battery housings.


RE: Here's a fcking idea!!!
By Spuke on 12/19/2008 2:00:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Here's my idea. Replaceable batteries. Running out of charge? Drive into a battery station and get another set.
Sounds likes a plan. No one's doing it yet so there's definitely a market for you to do this.


China makes the worst cars in the world!
By Yahma on 12/19/2008 4:14:25 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
This shows china is ahead of us technologically


Are you kidding me? Go to Youtube and search for "chinese crash test", and see how miserable their cars perform. The german ADAC tested the Brilliance sedan from china when they started selling in Europe, and gave it a "0" star rating! The worst in history. The Jiangling Landwind chinese SUV fared no better, effectively killing all its occupants in a collision of 30 mph or greater!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Ts94rjr4M




RE: China makes the worst cars in the world!
By hxa on 12/20/2008 8:04:41 PM , Rating: 2
Youtube? yes, just in youtube, also show us some crash test video about BYD F3 (BTW, F3 is the gasoline version of F3DM.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAskckqdCLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BMwe3RYpUY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzjFN6oD2yU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1VHRhhzTQM

We focus on and talk about f3DM here, why give us another crash test video? just because they all come from China?


By hxa on 12/21/2008 8:47:36 AM , Rating: 2
here show us several photos about F3DM crash test.
http://club.bydauto.com.cn/bbs/read.php?tid-232481...


This is NOT green.
By JonnyDough on 12/19/2008 6:46:14 PM , Rating: 2
Houses produce more pollution than automobiles. Electricity is created by burning coal, which does not burn nearly as cleanly as gasoline does. This is a step backward.

The Volt on the other hand has an integrated internal combustion engine that is used only to charge the batteries. The main engine is electric and more efficient than huge combustion engines. The idea here is that the small gas powered generator they use on the Volt is more efficient than a large engine for the following reasons:

1. Internal combustion engines weigh a lot.
2. The engine shuts off when not in use. No need to idle the engine or make it shut off/on very often. Stored energy goes into the batteries.

In today's vehicles when you're sitting at a light your engine is still running, and the gas/power is being wasted. Even with hybrids, you are hauling around a large combustion motor and you've still got all the electric gadgets and a battery.

The Volt has it right. It is the transition car between today's vehicles and electric cars.

The reason GM begged so hard for loans and is basically willing to do anything it takes is because they are really banking on the Volt and future vehicles similar to it. They know they have a great idea. They're also trying to further battery research, as better batteries will make superior electric cars.




RE: This is NOT green.
By JonnyDough on 12/19/2008 6:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
I also wanted to add that China has massive amounts of coal and few people on the grid. They're expanding energy capacity like crazy to keep up with industrial growth. My biggest concern is the question of whether or not this will cause China to build tons of soot producing coal plants, and in turn pollute the U.S. western shoreline.


RE: This is NOT green.
By foolsgambit11 on 12/19/2008 7:38:18 PM , Rating: 2
Well, ideally, they will build modern plants when expanding their power capacity.

But yes, this is a significant problem. I'm not sure what the average pollution per kilowatt-hour is in China, but it's definitely not good. Then again, generally speaking, centralized power generation is usually more efficient than many small generators - that is, a coal-fired plant is usually more efficient than the engine in a car. So the question should be pollution per mile driven - is it higher by internal combustion engines in cars, or by coal plants powering electric cars? Additionally, over the life of the car, which will be a bigger polluter? It can be assumed that China's power generation will (continue to) get cleaner in the future, and that an IC-powered car will only get dirtier as it gets older. So the answer to which is greener isn't perfectly clear, even if the IC car edges out electric at purchase (which I doubt, considering China's emissions standards on cars are sure to be lax).


By safebelt008 on 12/20/2008 12:33:29 PM , Rating: 2
BYD is now the largest rechargeable-battery produncer in the world,it makes 1/3 cellphone battery for the world,now I
I recommend a BYD F3DM Video from BYD's official BBS,it is filmed in shenzhen city near hongkong.
http://club.bydauto.com.cn/bbs/read.php?tid-231348...




By vxmqzz on 12/20/2008 3:47:03 PM , Rating: 2
sunroof appears to be a solar panel which is neat


By hxa on 12/20/2008 8:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
official web site about F3DM
http://dm.bydauto.com.cn/


Another Chinese death trap.
By Yahma on 12/19/2008 4:19:06 PM , Rating: 2
The chinese are importing their latest Brilliance sedan into Russia. Here are the crash test results, you can decide for yourself if you want to drive a chinese car after seeing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A




RE: Another Chinese death trap.
By RoberTx on 12/20/2008 12:58:49 AM , Rating: 2
But you gotta remember that was a dummy driving that car. A real person would have screamed and popped like a water balloon. Seriously, Youtube is dripping with some very funny Chinese car stories. My favorite is the one where it takes 2 to drive a Chinese car. One steers and throttles and the other uses all of his or her strength to keep the car in gear by holding the shift lever. IT'S AN AUTOMATIC???????


Let's see it
By FPP on 12/20/2008 4:02:11 AM , Rating: 2
Have the auto press test it and get back to us. The Chinese get lots of credit for stuff they do not develop, like space technology, etc. We heard all this back in the 80's about Japan, too.




RE: Let's see it
By jarman on 12/20/2008 2:24:23 PM , Rating: 2
What he ^^^^ said...


LOL
By voodooboy on 12/19/2008 1:53:19 PM , Rating: 2
Without even looking at the car (whose design I'm sure is a collage of many others), their "Dual Mode" symbol is quite similar to that of the Toyota Hybrid Synergy thingy... :p




WTF
By Asianman on 12/24/2008 8:56:06 AM , Rating: 2
What the hell people, just because someone beat you at your own game fair and square doesn't mean you have to have a cry and make sure the whole world hears you, Chinese carmakers have always been behind before and now that they do something innovative and beneficial for the whole world, you complain about it and blames communism. Face it, GM sucks, the volt should have been planned when the first Prius came out. But no... and now that GM is financially troubled and wholly dependant on government funding, you blame the Chinese. Now you know how the Soviets felt when America landed on the moon.
P.S: I am a Chinese person living in Australia




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