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The Model S will sell for $121,300 USD in China

Tesla Motors has been impressing an American audience with its electric Model S sedan, as sales continue to exceed expectations. But the EV is making its way to China, and Chinese competitors don't seem to share those opinions.

According to International Business Times, Chinese company BYD Auto isn't as optimistic that China will buy up Model S' the way Americans have. In fact, BYD CEO Wang Chuanfu said the Model S is a “rich man’s toy” rather than a practical vehicle in the Chinese market. 

BYD is a major automaker in China, and creates eco-friendly cars like Tesla. It's rolling out its plug-in hybrid called Qin, which can run 41 miles on electricity alone. 

Wang said demand for the Qin exceeds supply right now. The vehicle started selling in Shenzhen in December for around $31,200 USD.

Tesla's Model S, on the other hand, is nowhere near that price range in China. The base price of a Model S in the U.S. is about $69,900 USD, but in China, it's around $121,300 USD. Tesla CEO Elon Musk has said that the high price is due to the cost of delivery, Chinese import duties and the Chinese value-added tax.

Tesla has said that it'd like to partake in China's EV subsidies, but realizes that it doesn't qualify because the Model S is an import. 


Wang Chuanfu [SOURCE: The New York Times]

“We understand we don’t qualify for direct subsidies,” said Diarmuid O’Connell, Tesla’s VP of Business Development. “We’re hoping the government will consider the role Tesla can have in catalyzing electric vehicle adoption in China and extend those incentives to Model S as well."

The Model S will be sold in China starting next month, and subsidies for EVs will reportedly be cut much further than previously planned. Even though Tesla isn't eligible for the subsidies, it's a good start for potentially increased EV adoption.
 
China’s finance ministry said that subsidies would only be cut 5 percent this year, as opposed to 10 percent. In 2015, subsidies will be cut by another 10 percent as opposed to a previously planned 20 percent. 

Tesla has some big plans for China, as CEO Elon Musk recently said that China might match the U.S. in volume "as early as next year."
 
But BYD doesn't seem very threatened by Tesla's presence. The Chinese company makes only one all-electric car, the e6, and it hasn't seen impressive sales due to lagging interest in all-electrics in China. It's possible that BYD only has one all-electric vehicle for this reason, and doesn't see China wanting to spend Tesla' prices to have one. 

Tesla shares rose $34.65 to close at $252.30 Tuesday, and kept rising in premarket trading early Wednesday hitting $258.60. 

Back in 2008, BYD launched the world's first mass-produced plug-in hybrid. It was the F3DM plug-in hybrid, which had a full electric range of 60 miles on a full battery. The lithium-ion batteries could be charged fully in seven hours.



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Color Me Obvious
By StormyKnight on 2/26/2014 11:48:08 PM , Rating: 2
Well, no kidding. The model S and anything else in that price range is not an "everyman's car". ICE is still the way to go. For the money, full electric vehicles fall way short.




RE: Color Me Obvious
By Reclaimer77 on 2/26/14, Rating: -1
RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 2:04:39 AM , Rating: 2
The federal EV tax credit was never implemented properly in the first place. Now that it has helped get us through the first generation of EVs (Volt, Leaf, Tesla), it's no longer necessary IMO.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By sorry dog on 2/27/2014 11:00:37 AM , Rating: 1
Since when is a discount off a tax considered a "subsidy?." That straight out of Uncle Sam's IRS marketing department.

Cars and trucks that are imported to China and at least partly built by a domestic company are subject to very high tariffs that make the price around double. Which is part of the reason you still see lots of the old Dustbuster shaped GM minivans driving around there since that design was still being built into the 2000's by GM Shanghai. Well, that reason and most automakers are reluctant to send their most update to designs over there when you see thousands of 2nd generation 4 runners driving around will a Great Wall badge in place of Toyota, and I'm confident usual Chinese idea of intellectual property was strictly adhered too....

On that note, I'm really curious what China's argument is concerning those tariffs. It's not like we're marking up fireworks, plastic panda toys, and other Chinese staple exports 95%. I don't think the government sponsored protectionism and IP theft is really necessary anymore for China's economy to stand on its own. If Obama really wants to prove that he is not an invertebrate then instead of drawing imaginary red lines in a forsaken desert, he should bring this topic to mainstream conversation to expose the economic hypocrisy.

One more point, rich man's car or not, in China, having a car at all, whether gas, electric, or goat powered makes you better off than 95% of the population.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Mint on 2/27/2014 5:27:29 AM , Rating: 5
China's EV incentives are $10k per vehicle and $80k+ per bus. They're just more protectionist, not more fiscally conservative.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By tayb on 2/27/2014 8:53:33 AM , Rating: 2
Do you ever actually engage your brain?

China has a $9,800 subsidy for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids and a $82,000 subsidy for electric buses.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 1:50:50 AM , Rating: 5
That's exactly right. It makes perfect sense for Tesla to sell a premium, high-margin product. It would be pretty stupid of them to try to sell a cheap EV before the technology is there to make it worth it. See also: Nissan Leaf.

At a production capacity of 22,000/year, Tesla EVs don't even make up 0.1% of the new car market. So again, it would be completely stupid of them to try to sell an "everyman car" before they have their production in order. The goal here is to sell a bunch of Model S/X, and use the profit to build really big factories, which is happening now.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Reclaimer77 on 2/27/14, Rating: -1
RE: Color Me Obvious
By atechfan on 2/27/2014 3:51:15 AM , Rating: 2
I'm a proponent of electric vehicles. I think they have their place as commuter cars. I don't think they have any near future chance of ever replacing ICEs though, since the battery tech just isn't there, and doesn't appear to be on the horizon.

I'm even a proponent of luxury and sport electrics like Fiskar and Tesla were trying to make. Electric, with all its torque available immediately, has great performance potential. Problem is Fiskar produced garbage and Tesla is run by Musk.

The Leaf and the Volt are actually very nice for their target markets. Sure, they are still more expensive than cars in their size classes, but that is to be expected. If people think it is worth it, they will buy them, eventually getting the tech and economy of scale to a point where they are more affordable.

What I am against is green credits of any sort for buying them.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 5:21:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
since the battery tech just isn't there, and doesn't appear to be on the horizon.


This is a misconception. The battery tech is absolutely there. Capacity increases by 7% per year. The first-gen Roadster used 2100mAh cells. Tesla is using ~7500 last-gen 3100mAh cells for their Model S. 18650 4000mAh cells are currently available. Even if the next generation of 18650 cells increases by just 15% to 4600mAh, that already gives you a battery pack with an EPA range of about 400 miles.

But you don't need a 400-mile battery to replace most cars with EVs. A 150-mile LEAF or 200-mile Tesla Model E will do just fine for most people. Those cars will be released hopefully within the next 3 years. Prices are expected to fall to less than $200/kWh, which means a 50kWh 200-mile pack would cost about $10,000.

200 miles covers literally over 99.9% of all car trips. For the remaining 0.1% of trips, there will be quick chargers. For those that don't want to use a quick charger, there will be PHEVs like the Volt. That's about it, really.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By coburn_c on 2/27/2014 5:32:06 AM , Rating: 1
Capacity isn't everything, those batteries perform poorly in extreme temperatures, degrade badly over time, and are prone to fireballs. Quick charging further degrades their performance, meaning that a combination of extreme temp and constant quick charging could half your range in a couple years. Not to mention the poor heater and AC you get with an electric car, that dramatically reduces that range. Then consider the impact of a dead battery in a remote location, the so called range anxiety, and the damage that is done by towing or pushing these cars. Add to all that repairs that are complicated and can't be performed by the average mechanic, making this at best a rich mans toy, not a dependable automobile.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Mint on 2/27/2014 5:47:02 AM , Rating: 2
-Tesla's batteries perform just fine today in extreme temperatures
-They last thousands of cycles, and Tesla has seen half a million miles on its pack in the lab
-They catch on fire less frequently than a gas tank, and slow enough to warn you
-People don't do constant quick-charging: In 150M+ miles for the Model S, Tesla only has seen 8M miles of supercharger use
-Damage by towing? WTF?
-Average maintenance and repair costs are LOWER for electric cars, not higher
-Electric motors have long proven to be more dependable than ICEs in industrial processes

Any more lies you want to tell?


RE: Color Me Obvious
By coburn_c on 2/27/2014 2:12:07 PM , Rating: 2
You ever notice that Tesla spends absolutely no funds on, hires absolutely no one to develop, and hasn't patented a single battery tech?


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 7:06:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:

Capacity isn't everything

You say that, but then you proceed to list a bunch of battery capacity-related issues. EVs will solve them within a few years. PHEVs solve them all immediately.

quote:
Those batteries perform poorly in extreme temperatures

I'll agree there, but this is mostly a capacity issue.

quote:
degrade badly over time

Degradation occurs not with time, but with usage. Tesla batteries are expected to last at least 200,000-300,000 miles (80% capacity after 1000 cycles).

Increasing capacity actually has the dual effect of decreasing per-mile degradation (the larger the pack, the fewer discharge cycles), and extending the useful life of the pack (80% of 375 miles is still 300 miles).

quote:
and are prone to fireballs

Also a problem with ICE cars.

quote:
Quick charging further degrades their performance, meaning that a combination of extreme temp and constant quick charging could half your range in a couple years.

LOL! Quick charging is done on less than 0.1% of all trips. The degradation from extreme heat is bad, but there is a liquid battery cooling system in place, which is really only limited by.. battery capacity.

quote:
Not to mention the poor heater and AC you get with an electric car, that dramatically reduces that range.

Another battery capacity issue.

quote:
Then consider the impact of a dead battery in a remote location,

Battery capacity. Also a problem with ICE cars.

quote:
the so called range anxiety

...

quote:
and the damage that is done by towing or pushing these cars.

...Yeah, you'd also damage them by trying to pour gasoline into the charging port, but we don't do that either.

quote:
Add to all that repairs that are complicated and can't be performed by the average mechanic, making this at best a rich mans toy, not a dependable automobile.

There are almost no repairs with an EV. "The average mechanic" will cease to exist, obviously.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By coburn_c on 2/27/2014 2:08:16 PM , Rating: 2
These are not magical batteries that pass through a membrane from another universe.

Lithium-ion batteries degrade over time, and through cycling.

None of them hold 80% after 1000 cycles. None.

The temp holding must occur 24/7, and will cause cycling and drained batteries.

This will lead to range anxiety, as you may not be able to make it from where it was parked to a charging point.

Then you will be unable to tow or push it as that will damage the AC motors.

Since all your mechanics are out of business, you will have to get and RMA and ship it back to the Tesla factory.

Roaming bands of mechanics who you have now made homeless will eat your flesh while you ride to work on your Tesla loaner bicycle.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/28/2014 11:37:05 PM , Rating: 2
No, they're just normal batteries that have been available on the market for years. The time-based degradation is insignificant, what matters is the cycling. Luckily, a Model S almost never goes through a full recharge cycle. Most will go from 80% to 60% every day - that's much better for battery longevity than going from 100% once every 5 days.

As Mint pointed out in another thread, LiFePo4 is actually designed to retain 80% capacity after 2000 cycles. 400-mile batteries that last over a million miles are in your future.

Bjorn Nyland's Model S saw a 20% loss after 1 month of outdoor parking in below freezing weather. You should be good to leave it parked outside for 3 months at least.

As for towing a f*ckin' Model S.. Yeah, you already said that, and I already replied to it. Posting stuff like this reveals your old age. Like, you can't fill up an ICE car with horse feed either.

quote:
Roaming bands of mechanics who you have now made homeless will eat your flesh while you ride to work on your Tesla loaner bicycle.


Yeah brah, just like the herds of rabid homeless horses in the 1920s that used to eat drivers alive at intersections.

BTW, all Tesla loaners are P85s.

Almost every single argument you've made falls flat. I'm not saying that EVs aren't perfect. They're not. It's the FIRST generation of mass-produced EVs. The FIRST one. There's essentially ONE EV on the market. It was released in 2012. By the time any of us can actually buy one, most of these issues will be worked out.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/28/2014 11:38:37 PM , Rating: 1
I can't edit my comments. Are perfect*. Jesus, fuck this site.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By atechfan on 2/27/2014 7:28:30 AM , Rating: 2
So MAYBE in 3 years we might have a $10,000 battery pack that will be almost adequate, yet you say I am wrong when I say battery tech is not at the place to replace ICEs. I'm all for electric cars, but be realistic. It is people who push aside valid criticism that make electric car proponents look bad.

How much charge do these batteries lose at -40 Celsius? I've yet to see a battery that has good frigid weather performance. How much of that limited charge will be used up running the heater? I an gas or diesel powered vehicle, the heater is run off of waste heat from the engine.

I wish the we could find some much better way to store electricity. Electric cars have so many benefits over ICE power cars, but the battery problem is far from solved.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By drycrust3 on 2/27/2014 10:13:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How much charge do these batteries lose at -40 Celsius?

I'm guessing that -40 deg is outside the design spec of most Tesla's cars at present.
Mind you, you do raise a good point, which is there would be new types of batteries that would become available because there are chemicals that we normally consider as gases that would be liquids, and liquids that would be solid at those temperatures. So if you were to do a lot of driving in those conditions then you would remove your regular battery and replace it with a "cold climate" one.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Mint on 2/27/2014 11:29:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've yet to see a battery that has good frigid weather performance.


The Model S is one of the best selling cars in Norway. Yeah, there are huge EV incentives there, but if it sucked in frigid weather then it wouldn't sell. They have a temperature controlled battery.

They haven't even implemented a heat pump like the LEAF yet, which are much more efficient than resistive heaters (e.g. a SEER 17 heat pump putting out 15,000 BTU/hr - 4400W of heat - needs <1kW). Owners are reporting only 1kW heater usage at freezing temps. In a 50kWh battery, that's only 2% loss per hour of driving. Unfortunately, the LEAF battery pack isn't as good as Tesla's.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Reclaimer77 on 2/27/2014 11:42:49 AM , Rating: 1
Why do you think Tesla's are so popular in California? California, where people don't even need air conditioning or central heating.

I would love to see how a Tesla handles the summers I get, 100+ degrees with 100% humidity. A/C turned up all the way maxed for the entire trip.

quote:
It is people who push aside valid criticism that make electric car proponents look bad.


Exactly. People like Mint who view EV's as a religion and try to crush any opposition against his 'church'.

Musk is his own worst enemy as well in this regard. He seriously tries to sue anyone who doesn't tow the church agenda, and takes any valid criticism like spoiled little brat.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Nutzo on 2/27/2014 11:37:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The battery tech is absolutely there.


Not for most people.

If your kid borrows your car and leaves you with an almost empty gas tank, it will only take you a few minutes to fill it up on the way to work.

If they forget to plug in your electric car, you'll need to call in sick while you wait most the day for it to charge at home. if they happen to have left enough battery charge to drive to a quick charge station, then you might just be an hour late.

An electic car with the range of the Leaf would be fine for 90%+ of my driving. It's the other 10% (long trips) that's the problem. The range of the Tesla might get me to 95%, but there is still that other 5% to deal with.

Does anyone think that Tesla will have FREE quick charging on thier low-cost cars? Eventually you will have to pay for the quick charges, and people will find out that it's not much cheaper than gas once the charging station adds it's markup & the state starts taxing it.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Reclaimer77 on 2/27/14, Rating: 0
RE: Color Me Obvious
By captainBOB on 2/27/2014 12:58:16 PM , Rating: 2
The pragmatic realities of car ownership mean that its not the car's fault that your kid drained your tank and you didn't realize it till you had to rush to work. That's your fault, its your responsibility to ensure your kid doesn't drain your tank, and failing that, expect him to drain the tank and fill it up immediately upon return.

What if he brings it back 10 minutes before you have to go? Then you are being the dumb by loaning out your car when you know you're gonna need it soon. Stop blaming the car for being a car.

All these wonderful hypothetical one-offs that supposedly shutdown all arguments to have an EV are weak FUD at best.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By tanjali on 2/27/2014 6:53:47 PM , Rating: 2
You are really an OIL LOVING SLUT aren't you Reclaimer77?


RE: Color Me Obvious
By Mint on 2/27/2014 5:33:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
His "Gigafactory" will be used to drive Model S/X margins even higher. NOT to enable affordable Tesla's.


Where do you get this stuff? Do you get a kick out of telling lies day after day? Or do you religiously follow some nutjob conspiracy site?

Of course it will increase margins for the S/X, but those models will never have the sales volume needed to justify the gigafactory. That's going to build enough battery packs for 500k cars per year.


RE: Color Me Obvious
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 7:16:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Standard Tesla cock-boy talking point. With zero evidence or reasoning to back it up, besides maybe the crystal ball that told you so.


My URLs are getting caught by the spam filter. For the reader:

Tesla Motors - The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me):
quote:
So, in short, the master plan is:
Build sports car
Use that money to build an affordable car
Use that money to build an even more affordable car


Wikipedia - Tesla Roadster:
quote:
Tesla Motors had built approximately 2,600 Roadsters by the conclusion of its production.


Tesla Motors 2013 Shareholder letter:
quote:
This capped a year in which we delivered 22,477 vehicles


Tesla Motors - Gigafactory:
quote:
By the end of the first year of volume production of our mass market vehicle, we expect the Gigafactory will have driven down the per kWh cost of our battery pack by more than 30 percent.


Tesla Motors - Gigafactory PDF:
quote:
Gigafactory Projected Figures
2020 Tesla Vehicle Volume ˜ 500,000/yr
2020 Gigafactory Cell Output 35 GWh/yr
2020 Gigafactory Pack Output 50 GWh/yr


Elon Musk:
quote:
"Tesla is not for sale. Our mission is to make a compelling, affordable electric car, and I will not stop until that's accomplished."


For Reclaimer77: Thanks for the laughs, as always!


True, but
By Shadowmaster625 on 2/27/2014 9:16:06 AM , Rating: 2
This is a market for the rich, by the rich. The Fed prints trillions and gives it to the top 0.1%. Then they all go out and buy their expensive toys. It's a great racket until the plebs figure out they been screwed, and how premeditated it all was. In the meantime, expect expensive toy car companies to do very well. It's not just TSLA toys that are selling well right now. With all the fed funny money that's been printed, they are buying all the toys that arent nailed down.

If Tesla made an electric yacht, you can bet your worthless bottom dollar that these slimy scumbags would line up to spend their monopoly money on them too.




RE: True, but
By tanjali on 2/27/2014 10:39:10 AM , Rating: 1
You really don't know shit what are you talking about!
Don't you!?


RE: True, but
By captainBOB on 2/27/2014 1:01:18 PM , Rating: 2
Your 'murrican is showing. You should zip it up before you embarrass yourself even more.


Is electric car worth it?
By w8gaming on 2/27/2014 8:51:37 AM , Rating: 2
Where does the electricity comes from? Still burning fuel in some power plant somewhere? Seems to me the source of energy production needs to switch faster from fuel burning to other renewable sources before the end goal is achieved; ie to reduce reliance on chemical fuel.




RE: Is electric car worth it?
By flyingpants1 on 2/27/2014 9:22:12 AM , Rating: 2
Good question. Electric cars are so efficient that they actually always win out, no matter what the source fuel is.


Family Car for the 1%
By coburn_c on 2/27/2014 3:08:24 AM , Rating: 2
"It handles crunching the bones of the 99% under its wheels very well." -- Anthony Bourdain driving a Model S




Why just Model S?
By Visual on 2/27/2014 4:10:09 AM , Rating: 2
I don't see why they went so specific. Tesla in general is just Musk's toy and he is rich. So, yeah.




the next sentence is
By cokbun on 2/26/2014 11:55:44 PM , Rating: 1
" and were going to copy the shit out of it "




"The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak." -- Robert Heinlein

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