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The mission would launch sometime in 2009

Most nations with a capable space program appear to have their sights on Mars. Russia and China have agreed to launch a joint mission that would gather rock samples from Mars and the Red Planet's nearest moon in 2009. China will supply all necessary scientific and survey equipment for the shuttle, while Russia will launch the spacecraft. A leading scientist at the Chinese Research Institute of Space Technology made the announcement during a Chinese space technology forum. China wants to focus specifically on the Earth's moon and Mars over the next five years.

China is aggressively trying to become the nation on the forefront of space exploration. After sending astronaut Yang Liwei into space in 2003, China is third behind the United States and the Soviet Union to successfully put a man into space. The country sent two more astronauts into space last October, with another manned orbit scheduled sometime next year.

A former chief designer of the manned space project in China has mentioned that China needs to build its own small, efficient space station. NASA also has plans for deep space exploration plans in the next ten years – Mars is one of the most popular goals.

The news for China's moon mission comes after the announcement that China would put a man on the moon by 2024, Japan's announcement to have a man on the moon by 2030 and that the US would put another man on the moon by 2020.  It would indeed appear that the space race of yesteryear is back.

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A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/25/2006 6:18:37 PM , Rating: 3
They are going to put a man on the moon by 2020? What a concept, I wish I would have thought of that like 52 years earlier.




RE: A man on the moon?
By saechaka on 8/25/2006 8:02:46 PM , Rating: 2
there are some that today believe we never landed on the moon. hence, why we've never even gone back since.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Kyanzes on 8/25/2006 8:14:35 PM , Rating: 3
They (you Americans) have gone back five more times after the first landing you know.


RE: A man on the moon?
By mendocinosummit on 8/25/2006 8:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
And Elvis and Tupac are alive too.


RE: A man on the moon?
By johnsonx on 8/25/2006 10:18:18 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
there are some that today believe we never landed on the moon. hence, why we've never even gone back since


Yes, but those people are foolish and should be paid no attention.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Tsuwamono on 8/25/2006 10:18:51 PM , Rating: 1
Those people need to remember to take their meds.


RE: A man on the moon?
By mendocinosummit on 8/25/2006 10:29:26 PM , Rating: 2
No they don't. They are really good entertainment when they forget to take them.


RE: A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/26/2006 2:12:37 PM , Rating: 2
there are some that today believe we never landed on the moon. hence, why we've never even gone back since.


I am a huge conspiracy nut. I think our US govt. is now, and has been up to atrocities against the human race, and thier own people that would blow our minds if it were made public. They are masters of the craft of mass illusion, and public intellectual nullification... I think the fact that they put floride in our water, and make our school chiildren "swish" it in thier mouths is a crime... It's a mild thought control drug that tends to make people more accepting, and obedient, and less likely to question the crap they are up to (it''s also good for your teeth)... I beleive many other of the more popular conspiracy theories as well...

However even I dont think they faked the moon thing. I beleive its 100% real. They havent been back, because there is nothing to see. They gathered data, and rocks, and its pretty much a lifeless lump... A great feat to get there, especially in 1968, but nothing else of interest.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 3:33:04 PM , Rating: 2
I guess you'd like bottled water then.. A thousand times more expensive, but your mind would be free from oppresion! You'd be down to eating apple sauce in your later years, but with the mind of a free man at least!

You somehow remind me of Fahrenheit 451, and A Brave New World.. we're not THAT bad.

/swallows Soma pill


RE: A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/26/2006 6:10:56 PM , Rating: 1
Its farenheit 9/11 , and yes, I believe every single point in that movie is true... But still, we did land on the moon in 68.


RE: A man on the moon?
By danrien on 8/26/2006 7:09:01 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Its farenheit 9/11 , and yes, I believe every single point in that movie is true


he was talking about a book, called farenheit 451. came out loooong before farenheit 911. it's about government conspiracy and what not. not about the 9/11 attacks.


RE: A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/27/2006 10:53:35 AM , Rating: 2
Ahh... I see. Maybe I should read more ;)


RE: A man on the moon?
By Suomynona on 8/26/2006 7:39:51 PM , Rating: 2
Put me in the camp that doesn't believe that we landed men on the moon in 1968. I do believe that we landed them in 1969, however. And dude, you should really start selling whatever the hell you've been smoking.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Tyler 86 on 8/27/2006 11:25:11 PM , Rating: 2
Even if it was 'just a movie' shown to the world at large, it may have been a failsafe publicity measure, even though the astronauts actually successfully landed on the moon, and carried out the acts as depicted. It wouldn't suprise me in the least if that's the case, but would still be disturbing.

I'm more inclined to believe it simply actually happened, though.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Lord 666 on 8/26/2006 8:50:53 PM , Rating: 2
I am one of those people that think the US government is hiding something about the moon; either we never landed there or our activities there are greatly underreported/underdisclosed. As private companies, certain wealthy individuals, and communist nations now have the technology to pull off their own lunar landings, the United States is growing concerned about the competition.

When China first announced their plans to have a human on the moon by 2010 and set up a lunar base, the United States tried to claim "ownership" and block China's involvement because the US was there first. Now look at the time line, the US has "sudden" interest to go back to the moon by 2020 and China has let their project slide to 2030.

"We have to face an uncomfortable fact here: a country whose interests may very well some day conflict with our own is going to pursue a line of technological development that could enhance its ability to challenge us through multiple venues. And they are going to be aided in this by other countries, whether we like it or not. While the U.S. seeks to contain China, much of the rest of the world is eager to work with China, thereby negating much of the impact the United States is trying to achieve, and indirectly encouraging activities not necessarily in the interest of the U.S."

"http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?...


RE: A man on the moon?
By Lord 666 on 8/26/2006 9:53:08 PM , Rating: 2
Never heard about water fluoridation for mind control. However, there is some research showing it has links to Alzheimers.

Another case against this silly idea using flouride for mind control is its still being used more than 50 years later, don't you think biochemistry would introduce something newer?

But what I have heard about mass mind control or dumbing of the population was aspartame.


RE: A man on the moon?
By ktlewis02 on 8/27/2006 2:06:13 PM , Rating: 2
"I think the fact that they put floride in our water, and make our school chiildren "swish" it in thier mouths is a crime... It's a mild thought control drug that tends to make people more accepting, and obedient, and less likely to question the crap they are up to (it''s also good for your teeth)... I beleive many other of the more popular conspiracy theories as well... "

I guess you are also a believer in the smoking of rock cocaine better known as crack.. You pulled that "swishing" crap right out of your ass LMAO.. and Fluoride is good for your teeth numbnuts, (see: toothpaste)


RE: A man on the moon?
By rushnrockt on 8/27/2006 5:37:31 PM , Rating: 2
That's embarassing, insulting people about mattets that you apparently do not understand. It has been known for a long time that fluorine (or fluoride which is the ionic form of fluorine) have mild "mind control" effect in that it makes subjects more docile. Bromine is also in that category and has been used in Soviet Union and Eastern Europe for years to keep soldiers in army camps from mutiny.
It seems that most people that brush this off as a "conspiracy" theory have little to no knolwedge of what they are talking about. Yes, fluoride can be good for teeth, but at the wrong development time it can be bad for the teeth and in larger quantities it is straight up poisonous to the body.
I recommend more research before blasting away.


RE: A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/27/2006 9:13:28 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you.

And to the poster above, the swish program was NOT pulled out of my ass, it was pulled out of my past. All california grade school students had to swish a floride solution in thier mouths for 60 seconds once per month in the earlier grades, like k-4 when I was growing up in the late 70's early 80's (my parents allowed me to opt out with a permission slip). I am not sure if they still do, because by now, it is in every brand of toothepaste so more is not required. YOu may want to live with the blinds pulled over your eyes, so feel free to continue, but dont blast me for disagreement...


RE: A man on the moon?
By Lord 666 on 8/27/2006 9:18:39 PM , Rating: 2
just quickly searched for mind control and flourine

http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis21.htm

http://www.befreetech.com/fluoridation.htm

interesting


RE: A man on the moon?
By retrospooty on 8/27/2006 9:44:07 PM , Rating: 2
that is interesting...

""Repeated doses of infinitesimal amounts of fluoride will in time reduce an individual's power to resist domination by slowly poisoning and narcotizing a certain area of the brain and will thus make him submissive to the will of those who wish to govern him. "Both the Germans and the Russians added sodium fluoride to the drinking water of prisoners of war to make them stupid and docile.""

That is so totally the USA now. It explains alot.


RE: A man on the moon?
By rushfan2006 on 8/28/2006 9:58:43 AM , Rating: 2
I like conspiracy nuts, their paranoia is often a huge source for my personal entertainment.

The latest biggest conspiracy thing was that the US government planet explosive charges in the World Trade Towers and the planes ramming into them was only for a cover up story of what really happened to bring the towers down.

Of course the biggest conspiracy theory of all time IMHO is that the holoaust was a hoax that never happened. I suppose Kennedy wasn't really assassinated either, the sun actually does revolve around the earth and oh yeah...rap really is made by talented musicians. ;)

Well anyway like I said its all very entertaining to debate such non-sense.



RE: A man on the moon?
By rushfan2006 on 8/28/2006 10:00:30 AM , Rating: 2
*"planet" should have read "planted"


RE: A man on the moon?
By Jkm3141 on 8/26/2006 9:42:09 PM , Rating: 2
apart from having gone back there several times, what use would it be to go there?

and even if you have one, is it worth the multi billions of dollars it would cost to get there?


RE: A man on the moon?
By FITCamaro on 8/27/2006 5:25:08 PM , Rating: 2
They can tell that to Eileen Collins. She's the sister of one of my old friend's mom. I've met her a few times and have been to numerous shuttle launches (including one from outside the Vehicle Assembly Building since I worked out at NASA one summer in college). Anyone who believes we didn't go to the moon is an idiot.


RE: A man on the moon?
By Optimizer on 8/27/2006 6:25:17 PM , Rating: 2
What? That's insane! What with all of the video footage and news paper clippings of the landings, how could you not believe? You'd have to be a complete moron to go against general consensus like that. I mean, what's next, not believing in JESUS ?


Let them go for it...
By wingless on 8/25/2006 7:28:06 PM , Rating: 1
Yea let them go for it. If they dont blow up and transit and actually make it back I will be very happy. We got wars to pay for here in the USA so we dont need to waste $$$ on space exploration. Iran/others will start WW3 and we need to focus on that and not landing on lifeless rocks. Dont worry...the US of A will catch up in due time. >=)




RE: Let them go for it...
By Fenixgoon on 8/25/2006 7:39:37 PM , Rating: 4
the US is already losing its scientific prowess in the international arena due to a drought of engineers and science majors. By undercutting NASA as we've done for some time now, we're only speeding the loss of our once firm grip as the best for science. only if a bunch of dumbass congressmen realized that putting a vehicle outside of this planet is a little more difficult than driving a car :disgust;


RE: Let them go for it...
By Shining Arcanine on 8/25/06, Rating: -1
RE: Let them go for it...
By Fenixgoon on 8/25/2006 9:34:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'm in materials science and engineering. if you look at it in the grand scale, though, the interest in engineering/sciences has been declining across america for some time and funding for NASA and other exploratory/scientific agencies has been cut.


RE: Let them go for it...
By akugami on 8/25/2006 9:50:16 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize a lot of these foreign students are returning to their home countries right? I know a lot do stay in the US but a lot also leave and return to their own countries after graduation.


RE: Let them go for it...
By vxmqzz on 8/26/2006 12:24:45 AM , Rating: 2
NIH has to cut a lof grants, as fas as I know a lot of PIs have failed to get new grant or renew their old grants


RE: Let them go for it...
By codeThug on 8/25/2006 7:41:22 PM , Rating: 2
If it wasn't for the space program, you wouldn't have a computer in front of you to tell us that space exploration is a waste.

Also, if the U.S. wasn't so inept and politically correct when it comes to Chinese industrial and military espionage, they wouldn't be setting their sights on Mars or the Moon.


RE: Let them go for it...
By BitByBit on 8/29/2006 1:14:11 PM , Rating: 2
If it wasn't for the space program, you wouldn't have a computer in front of you to tell us that space exploration is a waste.


The electronic computer was largely born out of efforts to crack the Nazis' 'Enigma Code', and little or nothing to do with the space program.


RE: Let them go for it...
By petesonic on 8/25/2006 10:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
I can't beleive that you say that the space exploration is not worth the money. It is one of the most underfunded agencies of the us government already. However it is responsible for more technological advances than most people are aware of. For example ecc ram was invented for deep exploration in the voyager and pioneer programs. Then the apollo program was one of the major motivators for the expanding of integrated circuits. Then alot of major advances in advanced ceramics can be directly attributed to the space program. So pretty much everything that is discussed in this forum has at least part of its origins in the space program, so to be part of this forum and say that the space program is worthless is extremely hypocritical. unless you're in this forum just to critisize technological advancement... hahahaha ok so i know that this is an extremely bias comment since i want to work for jpl, but it is important to keep in mind that the space program hasn't just been a waste of money


RE: Let them go for it...
By wingless on 8/26/2006 12:39:44 AM , Rating: 2
Im not saying space exploration is bad, Im just saying the USA cant really afford it now since we're in the shit right now with this WAR ON TERROR...itll get worse folks...much worse. Landing on Mars wont solve the problem of Arabic Imperialism on the world (youll find out what I mean in the next few years by this statement first hand).

Honestly I wish we were in a position where we didnt have any major conflicts to workout so we could freely explore the potential for humanity to reach the stars. They planned to land on the Mars by the late 1980's back in the day, but that never happened because we were preoccupied with more pressing world conflicts..


RE: Let them go for it...
By Viditor on 8/26/2006 5:51:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Im not saying space exploration is bad, Im just saying the USA cant really afford it now since we're in the shit right now with this WAR ON TERROR

In point of fact, the Space program is the only modern US Govt program to date that has turned a profit (and a rather sizable one...).
The space program is responsible for (among many other things):
1. The transistor - foundation of all modern electronics
2. Satellites - communications, finding natural resources, weather prediction, etc...

Just these 2 things among the hundreds developed for the space program have made more money for the US than anything else I can think of...

So what about the future?

Maybe the development of the Space Elevator (using carbon nanotubes)? With a solar collector at the end of the elevator, it might be possible to generate enough electricity to power a small city.

Self-sufficient colony on the Moon? Terraforming Mars? Mining the asteroid belt? All of the new discoveries in Physics?
As the population increases, we absolutely MUST start very soon to expand off of Earth, or face the consequences of limited supply with overwhelming demand...
So the real question is, can we afford NOT to increase NASA's funding?


RE: Let them go for it...
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 9:01:42 PM , Rating: 2
Have to agree with viditor; like I pointed out below, NASA's budget is absolutely nothing compared to defense spending, social services, etc. Doubling its budget would hardly be felt, and cutting it to zero would have equally no true effect on the budget. The technological, moral, scientific and cultural loss that would represent, on the other hand, would be huge..

Not to mention prestige.. A country with a billion people that're comparatively dirt poor beating us at anything in space? That'd be a disgrace.


RE: Let them go for it...
By Burning Bridges on 8/26/2006 2:44:51 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Iran/others will start WW3 and we need to focus on that

Nah, WW3 is much more likely to be started by the US feeling the need to "Liberate" a country, and, (by handy coincidence) it's oil fields.


RE: Let them go for it...
By Optimizer on 8/27/2006 6:30:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Iran/others will start WW3...


Says he, with the fuse in one hand and a match in the other.


RE: Let them go for it...
By oTAL on 8/29/2006 2:49:35 AM , Rating: 2
*lol*
So true....
*They* are always the enemy....

It's a shame that most people don't even know that the pilots on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait...


Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/25/2006 11:03:31 PM , Rating: 2
..in some of you guys.

Anyone can google for some basic facts about US spending. Yes, "billions" sounds like a lot, but one must remember our economy is 12.36 trillion dollars (PPP), and our FY07 budget is north of 2.8 trillion. NASA's piece of the action? Barely keeping pace with inflation, and just south of 14 billion if I recall.

Therefore: 14,000,000,000 / 2,800,000,000,000 = .005, or .5%!!!!!!

Compare that to about two seconds in Iraq, or the cost to pay those too lazy to work, those too irresponsible to save for retirement who had the opportunity to, those who avoid paying their taxes, and, hell, that damn bridge in Alaska.

Then keep in mind the huge advanced pioneered by NASA in the past, and the huge advances possible in the future. What astounding advances that contribute to the human condition do you expect from, say, Medicare or other socialist programs that've only made Europe lazy and less productive?

Anyway. "Space race?" C'mon. Lets see the truth as it is. China, Russia, they know it is. Thing is, they have the spine to follow through to victory. We have nuts who doubt we went to the moon, and complain about an extremely small expense already.. much less a well funded one capable of truly getting the job done.. No. We'll lose this one, barring an astounding education of the public and change in will power.




RE: Disappointed...
By headbox on 8/26/2006 12:07:33 AM , Rating: 2
"...or the cost to pay those too lazy to work..."

I assume you are referring to those on welfare, which is 60% children, and the rest are mostly single mothers because their asshole husbands can't keep their dick in their pants. But hey, keep believing what your right-wing pundits feed you.


RE: Disappointed...
By NullSubroutine on 8/26/2006 1:23:16 AM , Rating: 1
yah this 1990's anti-welfare bs made it so the .01% of the people abusing the system no longer can, but cut 65% of the legitimate people who needed it.

i love politicians who make it seem the exception is the rule, and those who turn the middle class on the lower and underclasses to make them forget about how the upper class reaps all the profits.


RE: Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 2:29:31 AM , Rating: 2
You COULD make random accusations that while being wildly off the mark agree with the world view that you've adopted and would be uncomfortable challenging in a logical manner, or you could research the matter (and moveon.org, unfortunately, comrade, isn't an unbiased source).

Quick facts for lazy socialists:
1) 4.7 million moved from welfare dependency to SELF SUFFICIENCY within 3 years
2) Number of caseloads reduced by 54% since enactment
3) Child poverty rates for African Americans has had the sharpest decline ever recorded since enactment

Those can all be verified by multiple sources, including government, nonprofit, etc, with precisely 60 seconds and an open mind with Google. Or any hung-over econ 101 teacher-assistant could whack you on the head with as much knowledge. Personally got 1 & 2 from government reports, and 3 from wikipedia. Last paragraph of "Other Countries" hits it on the head, particularly last sentence.

Nice try though. And Hong Kong is a beautiful case study in what a city can do without socialist BS. Something that's easy to forget is that emotion has no place is policy like this. Feeling bad for peoples stories doesn't remove personal responsibility. There's a helping hand, and then there's a hand out.

Regarding the budget, NASA gets chump change compared to any of those aforementioned major programs. And at least that money tends to go to professionals rendering a highly skilled service :) Money saved from slashing needless handouts could go to help boost an agency that is the "gateway drug" of young scientists and explorers across the nation.


RE: Disappointed...
By Crusader on 8/26/2006 9:27:47 AM , Rating: 2
Ringold - Awesome post.


RE: Disappointed...
By Shintai on 8/26/2006 10:56:51 AM , Rating: 3
I think you forgot a few things now you absolutely wanted to bash the socialists...

Like the 8.4trillion $ debt that has grown massively in the same period?

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Or that the number of people under the poverty line keeps increasing?

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty04/p...

Anyway, I prefer the socialist way here in Denmark. But again, we only have 0 debt, massive record breaking surplus og the budgest, massive trade surplus and a 17-18$ minimum wage (Instead of being abused in kansas with as low as 2.8$ an hour. Even kids here get 8-9$+!) and we rock in the globalization race. How is it going for the US? Maybe relax abit with the "socialist BS" because the US aint doing better, thats for sure.

Welfare brings alot of benefits that is hard to see when you only think tax and money ehre and now. Healthcare is overall better, education is wastly superiour. Sure the US got a few high educated people. However socialist countries got 100x more in all levels of the society group. And you dont drop highly skilled people on the floor, just because mom and dad cant afford the money for education.

And social security net. Works perfectly for people starting a new business. On the other hand it keeps the least gifted from natures side above the poverty line.

Maybe we are "lazy socialists", but we sure do alot more work in less time. And atleast we know how to hold a budget while caring for everyone.

And on a sidenote, not to question it. But it is abit funny that the moonlanding video is...gone from NASAs archives.

/rant off


RE: Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 3:24:43 PM , Rating: 2
Again with basic economics, Shintai.

If Denmark's system is working so astoundingly well, and since Denmark wasn't essentially a pile of rubble at the close of WW2, what is Denmark's excuse for a lower per-capita GDP and lower standard of living compared to the United States? Obviously all is not well.

Regarding the US's debt, it's a slight problem, to be sure. However, a *surplus*, any real economist can tell you is pure economic waste. Taxes create inefficiency no matter the cause or the use they go to (dead weight loss). Budget deficit, on the other hand, is a useful tool for lighting the fire under an economy, which is why again most economists shrug off our current debt. Can't think of the name of the effect, but $1 of gov deficit spending means far more than $1 in economic activity.

Additionally, where do you think that debt came from? Iraq? I dont have the numbers in front of me, but social services are at least half of government spending, if not more. Our imperial adventures cost nothing compared to this Medicare Part-D crap.

And, uh, $2.8/hr in Kansas? Right.. And kids here can get 8-9/hr too, with much lower taxes probably, if they want to. Even heard on the radio earlier this summer the theme parks wanted summer full-time workers, with full-time benefits including health starting on day one of training. If a kid here is earning less than $8, its by choice, or lack of trying. And Florida's not exactly an economic hot spot. Getting our own people out of poverty is an education or job training issue, not a "hand them a check" issue. The debate should be there and not with handouts.

Of course people like socialism though. It's warm, fuzzy, a message saying "We'll be here to hold you if you fall", instead of personal responsibility that says "If you fail, to the soup kitchens!" Like I said, Hong Kong made it work; it makes NYC look cheap.

Oh, and you guys do more in less time? Quick fact check of 04 data:
Denmark: -2.8% productivity growth, 20% lower GDP per capita, 10% lower utilisation, repeated losses since 2000
US: 4.8% productivity growth, unbroken record of growth back to the start of the recent data charts, '79.

Credit: BLS

I could find research to refute virtually every statement you made, but it'd take all day.. and I need some lunch. Bottom line: Socialism is defensible only from a position of wanting to help everyone out at any cost, but never, ever from a position of prosperity or growth. Such is the nature of capitalism.


RE: Disappointed...
By Shintai on 8/26/2006 4:56:14 PM , Rating: 2
Try back your facts up with links first of all.

GDP?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...

But here the wealth is mmuch more distributed. Therefore the over 12% americans under the poverty line.

For minimum wage you can see it here:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm
And here, heathcare is not some benefit you need to gain from a work. But something you always have nomatter what.

And pleace backup your statement about -2.8% productivity. because that doesn´t match our 9billion$ surplus and the lack of 140000 extra workers. Oh and before you nag about the 9 billion. It would be like the US having a 540billion surplus.

And maybe check the debt link again, there is historical data too. The US haven´t been debtfree for over 100years and the debt is not due to social security services. Unless you want to blame it on that before it even existed.

So please come up with something better. Anarcho-liberals people like you always seem to blow hot air with facts. I showed you US goverment facts. Want to argue against those?


RE: Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 5:32:59 PM , Rating: 3
Holy cow, anarcho-liberal?!

You obviously don't know what "republican" or "libertarian" means in America. =) My economic policies are considered extremely conservative; socialism is the liberalism.

Anyway.

Our currently unemployment level is fine, don't even mention it: there's not even the slightest suggestion by economists it's too high. The 5%-ish either dont want it bad enough or are victims of temporary structural unemployment.

Obviously being in debt for the last century hasn't stopped the US from becoming the richest and most productive nation on Earth, now has it? Therefore, deficit talk is moot.

Per capita GDP I'll admit, I must not've paid close enough attention. However, that wikipedia article doesn't say if thats nominal or real GDP, but regardless, Purchasing Power Parity GDP data is what I was actually looking at, and since you like Wiki, here's the appropriate linkage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...

Norway is artificially inflated slightly, and Luxembourg must plain deserve a gold star, but this adequately represents Denmark.

That minimum wage has to be either for waiters or the likes (which are expected to be compensated from tips, not hourly wages), or it really could be that low. Regardless, no one in Kansas doing real work is getting paid that; trust me. The federal minimum wage wouldn't allow it.

The statement on shrinking productivity per worker for the year of 04 can be found several places; it was caused principally, it seemed, by Denmark folks working a few less hours. Productivity per hour worked was up, but half as much as the US.

In a capitalist system, not everyone would or should have health coverage anyway. Considering dead weight loss (wiki entry on Taxes illustrates this inevitable effect of taxation), and considering that if health care was more of a free market in the US there would be no market failure, then individuals could acquire health care at a competitive rate that would cost them less than what they'd on average have to pay in taxes to the government. Likewise, they could choose to have no coverage, roll the dice, and pocket huge bucks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_...

It's a safe assumption that the difference in our highest tax rate (35%) and yours (59% PLUS a VAT!! I'm even more sickened by socialism after seeing that than I was before!) is enough for the typical American to buy his or her own coverage, if they chose.

And again, why are you bragging about a surplus?! Once again: That $9B is 9B (actually more, money creation, multipling effects, etc) that is yanked out of your pockets and unable to create jobs, businesses, etc, which weighs on your economy.

Regarding distribution of wealth, given the level of mobility in the US, and the fact its not exactly hard to get college student loans, people have the share of our 'distribution of wealth' that they're willing to work to achieve, no more no less.

In the end, you and I are debating normative & positive economics, and you're a victim of European education getting manipulated to make socialist normative economics in to what it made to sound like positive economics, and I'm a hell-bent believer in capitalism and personal responsibility. We'd both have better luck trying to convince Billy Graham of evolution. :)


RE: Disappointed...
By Shintai on 8/27/2006 4:30:03 AM , Rating: 2
Since its a waste of time argueing with something looking like FOX news. Lets me just outline the basics since you obviously dont have a clue what you talk about.

Money is streaming out of the US:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/hig...

Numbers speak for themselves. Here we got a tarde surplus, meaning we get money BACK to the country. You should try it.

For the GDP, try look on what PPP actually is instead of just paste something you are clueless about. PPP is the tax regulated GDP against local living costs. Extreme cheap US wages like kansas with 2.65$ an hour is what helping the US there. Or the general around 5.5$ an hour. Here its 17-18$.
Also try tell me what type of countries is STILL number 1 and 2? Also list me the first 20 countries in both lists and tell me how any is socialists and how many aint.

On the tax issue you obviously forget the basics once again. What do we get back from the tax, that you have to get insurance, get jobs perks etc for. Try calculate it all for once and not just grab the numbers you like.

Also you seem to need a 101 in politics.

I know its hard that the US cant always be the super nest in everything. But you can just aswell start to live with it. The US aint the biggest economy anymore either and in a few years china will overtake it too.

And nice thing about the european education and manipulation. Thats coming from a an america who´s president is caught in lies. With a media that lies when it can. With a goverment that is rotten to the bone with corruption. Just look on all the politicians grabbed with the hand in the cookiejar. Funny...funny I say. Maybe try and drop the patriotism for a while, critisism is what can bring a country forward. Not stupid and lame patriotic obeyance.


RE: Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/27/2006 8:01:27 PM , Rating: 2
I'm only patriotic to capitalism, which again, you just arent grasping. If you did, if you'd ever taken a balanced economics class or read a balanced economics book, you'd know that if the government didn't tax you for health care and instead allowed you to keep that money and purchase a plan yourself with the coverage that fits your unique needs and at a cost that is forced to be competitive in an open maket you would save money. "Dead weight loss" just isn't a fantasy term created by US patriots.

Regarding the trade deficit, yes, but as a percentage of GDP it's not the end of the world. In a historical context, if I'm not mistaken, no empire or nation has stood the test of time in any meaningful way with a trade deficit, but considering that one only really hears about it from the media trying to take a jab at Bush when really the economy is currently doing well then I think its a safe assumption that there's no problem there (Yet).

Regarding PPP, I'm not sure what you mean. First off, once again, nobody in this entire nation works legally and only gets compensated 2.65/hr. Trust me. Ask someone from Kansas. It doesn't happen. Second, you're overcomplicating the PPP comparison a bit too much. Forgetting tax nonsense, it's an attempt to compare a basket of goods in two countries. Better the number, better the standard of living.

The sad thing about the countries close to the US in PPP, GDP per cap, etc, is that without those taxes weighing it down, without the government budget surplus's siphoning money out of the system, and with the motivation that knowing you are responsible for your own fortunes, its hard to even imagine how much further ahead these countries could be. In the top 20, I'm not sure of Japan, Qatar, or Australia, but sure, they're all socialist, except for the US, with one foot in and one foot out, and Hong Kong. Don't leave out South Korea though, or Taiwan. All three of those are economic miracles. If Europe had had the past they had had, Europe would still be forming a committee or meeting at the UN to try to figure out how to best use toilet paper. And if Cuban policy ever ends up in the hands of evil, capitalist-loving economists, fully expect Havanna to be the Hong Kong of the West given several decades.

On politics, lets not try to debate that. Maybe liberals in your country are for small government, but here, they want universal health care. Here it's the conservatives that rally for all the things I've spoke of, and libertarians, ten times as much. Speaking of them, Neal Boortz is my hero. :)


RE: Disappointed...
By Jkm3141 on 8/26/2006 9:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
good thing this perfect little world of you worked so well for russia.


RE: Disappointed...
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 11:08:21 PM , Rating: 1
Russia is still playing catch up from its socialist adventure. They know capitalism will allow them to prosper and they seem to be taking baby steps in the right direction. I think Cheney rags on them over the democracy issue, but democracy will follow prosperity eventually. China's central government will figure that out once its upper and middle class get educated enough. ;) If we're lucky, ha, maybe that'll happen soon, and they too will be short-sighted and cut funding for space exploration.


RE: Disappointed...
By Pythias on 8/26/2006 3:29:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I assume you are referring to those on welfare, which is 60% children, and the rest are mostly single mothers because their asshole husbands can't keep their dick in their pants. But hey, keep believing what your right-wing pundits feed you.


Its all the man's fault? Women had no say in the matter? Thank you for setting women's liberation back a few hundred years.


RE: Disappointed...
By Jkm3141 on 8/26/2006 9:54:07 PM , Rating: 2
yea commitment because if they dont their familys will be shot. Thats a good system.


Lets get in the race
By matthieuusa on 8/26/2006 4:43:19 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, what a great topic here. Finally, here it is: China and Russia are going to surpass us in the space colonization. And what do we do in the mean time? Spend billions to buy useless weapons and use them against mostly innocent people, pretexting a "WAR ON TERROR" we created to make money stealing somebody else resources.
What kind of beautiful accomplishment could we have achieved if we spend this money into scientific and construction programs? One for sure, we would have saved the life of thousands of our citizens along with thousands of innocent civils.
Our military spending compared to our NASA budget is ridiculous. What happened to us? We used to spend billions in research and development, be the most powerful country, attract the most renowned scientists, engineers, teachers... on this planet. We used to have dreams! No wonder foreign student are going back home instead of staying, most of the opportunities which use to exist are gone. And our new immigration policies make it harder than ever for LEGAL alien to stay, Another beautiful accomplishment of ours.
The oil in Iraq and Afghanistan, wow, what a big deal. Since we invaded these territories, oil priced tripled. Talk about a progress. Oh, except perhaps for people who own it, whose profit tripled too.
Iran, WW3, the musulman threat! We did that to ourselves. Giving somebody a territory which belonged to Palestinian for thousands of year, which they successfully protected until we came and messed up everything. We created one of the biggest problem in the history. And now we are paying for it. I’m deeply concerned when I see how many people have been so well brainwashed to where they do not see what this “WAR ON TERROR” is really about, which is, like ALL wars, money and power. We better worry about North Korea instead.
I believe there are much more progress to be made in investing into science departments and spending the money wisely instead of manufacturing weapons, which only serve the purpose of destruction.
What about calling back the 200,000 military personnel dispersed in Iraq and Afghanistan, forget about the oil, and convert them into technicians and engineers for our space program. It would be interesting to see what we could do with that many people working together with one constructive objective! Let’s show people what we are capable of and make the American dream a reality again.
Wake up America!




RE: Lets get in the race
By Hypernova on 8/26/2006 5:18:18 PM , Rating: 2
If you americans diverted even 1% of the war fund to fusion research 30 years back USA wouldn't even be in this mess. The whole space race showed without doubt that it's never about wether the tech is there, with enough funding it always will be. Compare what ITER spends in total to what Iraq in a day the whole deal about oil is just retarded.


RE: Lets get in the race
By Ringold on 8/26/2006 5:43:37 PM , Rating: 2
I bet you would've been, half a century ago, one of those Nazi appeasers, but okay. Time to follow the logic train.

Retreat from Iraq & Afghanistan, save relatively little money out of the national budget. => Government of both countries collapse, radical islamic fascists establish themselves in both. => Now with two large bases for training, fund raising and staging, 9-11 style attacks become weekly occurences for the whole Christian world, because as far as those nuts are concerned, they're still pissed about the last few Crusades.

Much better, now that we're there and iraq is a 'sunk cost', to finish the job, and simultaneously reduce oil consumption as we can.

Meanwhile, also tripling NASA and science & education spending, since the effect of doing so would hardly show up on the gov's bottom line yet would, like you pointed out, reap benefits. Especially if NASA privatized what it could.

Oh, and ITER, that the project in France? Don't forget, idiot, that the US contributes to it, and just a few months ago US researchers had a major breakthrough that was contributed to the project in the area of plasma containment. (Something about removing leaked plasma that would've slowly corroded the chamber) France could use a few more defense dollars themselves. They moan and groan for a international force in Lebanon, then kick in 200 troops? Heaven forbid one of them breaks a fingernail. I think the last man born in France was "The Lion King" that at least partly through luck stopped the Islamic hordes the first time they invaded. Too bad they dont realize the Islamic extremists are back, and pissed.


RE: Lets get in the race
By rushnrockt on 8/27/2006 5:48:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
9-11 style attacks become weekly occurences for the whole Christian world


Hmmm, having a bit of a biased view there, are we? Oh wait, that's right! No one but Christians matter! All those innocent hindu, muslims, asians and what not dying in terrorist attacks around the world, poo-poo on them. They don't believe in the Jewish carpenter so who cares.

If you present your facts in such a christian-centric manner, no wonder that the muslim world thinks that the latest crusade is happening right now. You can't point fingers at them being religious fanatics that are still peeved about crusades if you yourself are unable to see the conflict beyond its pseudo-religious veil.


RE: Lets get in the race
By Ringold on 8/27/2006 7:35:29 PM , Rating: 2
If I cant see the conflict beyond.. a pseudo-religious vail..

Hmm.. Right. I get it. Religion has nothing to do with it, since we're not followers of Islam, but they are, and they seem to think dieing in a terror attack is doing the will of god. Makes absolute sense!

Call off the bomb sniffing dogs at the airports, guys! Rushnrockt here obviously thinks these guys can actually be reasoned with, why dont we all just set down at a big table, smoke a cuban cigar, and like half a century ago, ask them how much territory they want to be quiet!

Anyway, only pointed out the Christian world 'cause the rest of the world seems to have either figured it out. Europe on the other hand has learned nothing, even though its last attempt at pacifism left most of the continent in waste and under Soviet communist control. History doesn't repeat itself though, oh no, never.


RE: Lets get in the race
By xsilver on 8/27/2006 9:59:36 PM , Rating: 2
and your solution is what??
bomb the crap out of them until they submit?

war creates more war, where is the end?
and painting all non christians with the same brush just shows how ignorant people can be.
countering your own view with an extremist left wing view solves nothing


RE: Lets get in the race
By rushfan2006 on 8/28/2006 10:04:32 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hmmm, having a bit of a biased view there, are we? Oh wait, that's right! No one but Christians matter! All those innocent hindu, muslims, asians and what not dying in terrorist attacks around the world, poo-poo on them. They don't believe in the Jewish carpenter so who cares.


Point taken and I agree with you..all life matters (with some exceptions : like rapists, child molesters, terrorists, etc.). However, all you have to do is a little research and you'll find plenty of postings and articles that sway your point in the view that other religions are the only one that matters....so it goes both ways.



Money better spent
By INeedCache on 8/27/2006 6:45:35 PM , Rating: 2
First, the phrase "War on Terror" makes no sense. It should be "war on terrorists". Whoever the dim bulb was that came up with that one should hide, as should any media willing to repeat it other than to vilify it. Would you say "war on intense fear"? No. Anyway, I really think spending more on ocean exploration would provide greater benefits to mankind than space, as there is still much we do not know about our own planet, especially the oceans. To get involved in another space race will only mean more money, and lives, wasted. And unfortunately, I think it would be a race, as the U.S. has to always try to be first for everything. Hopefully they don't get involved in another race to try and upstage what the Chinese and Russians are planning.




RE: Money better spent
By Ringold on 8/27/2006 7:19:27 PM , Rating: 2
But SeaQuest sucked after the first season. IMHO, anyway. :)


RE: Money better spent
By xsilver on 8/27/2006 10:04:00 PM , Rating: 1
the word "war" is also used wrongly
its just like the "war on drugs"
the war is never going to end...
real wars have winners/losers and an actual ending.

so far it looks more like revenge than war.
(kill our 3000 citizens; we kill 30,000 of yours)


RE: Money better spent
By ksteen on 8/28/2006 3:44:14 AM , Rating: 2

Yah sure bud. Me and my friend Joe next door are planning a trip to Mars too! What a quincy!

Seriously, "plans" don't mean squat. The Russian are so screwed up right now they couldn't find their ass in the dark with both hands, and the chinese aren't much better. This is like "Dumb and Dumber Goes to Mars."

-Ken


RE: Money better spent
By rushfan2006 on 8/28/2006 10:07:12 AM , Rating: 3
I've never seen a definition from a reliable source ever state that a war must have a "definite beginning and a definite end".

Interesting viewpoint you have...



RE: Money better spent
By xsilver on 8/28/2006 11:03:44 PM , Rating: 2
well, the way I reason with it is:
what is the point of war? to win?
how do you win? crush the opposition?
what happens when you crush the opposition?
war is over?
I dont know how to justify the start part, thought it was obvious; well the isreali/palestinian conflict has been going for thousands of years but it must have started sometime...

yes, its a simplistic view but effective I think
I'm just saying that phrasing it by calling it a war is probably wrong -- Its more of a "sustained conflict" but that term doesnt have the same connotation now does it?


RE: Money better spent
By xsilver on 8/28/2006 11:08:48 PM , Rating: 2
just to clarify.
The belief that the war on terror or the war on drugs can be won is a utopian concept. Harm minimization and a harmony and balance can be achieved though.
So I just think that calling it a "war" will cause people to think that it can be won. why not call a spade a spade?


wow
By Mojo the Monkey on 8/25/2006 8:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yeesh, look at these timeframes. Considering all of the technological advnacement, both in design and computing, we either we forgot how to get things done, or we faked the moonlanding.




RE: wow
By Shining Arcanine on 8/25/2006 8:34:52 PM , Rating: 2
They actually still have the Apollo 18 spacecraft still ready for takeoff. It is at a Museum now but if they wanted to go to the Moon next year, they could go to the Moon next year using it. The only thing is that they want to use new technology, that is more advanced and that does not cram the astronauts into a small confined space. Failing to do so would be an indicator of technological stagnation, which is not a good thing.


RE: wow
By petesonic on 8/25/2006 11:01:20 PM , Rating: 2
well.... these computer equipment takes FOREVER to prepare, like a BSOD would be fatal for the astronaughts depending on what systems crashed. Also the harsh environments that the equipment would encounter needs years of testing. NASA tries to plan for EVERY possible outcome... so that takes many many years... especially with their recent Columbia Space Shuttle tragedy.... they can't afford to have another accident...


RE: wow
By Viper007Bond on 8/26/2006 4:01:45 AM , Rating: 2
I say they use Windows ME. XD


Ahh...brings back old memories..
By Kromis on 8/25/2006 6:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
Of the time I studied World History and learned that the Soviet Union and Communist China were friends...




RE: Ahh...brings back old memories..
By JackPack on 8/26/2006 2:38:12 AM , Rating: 2
I guess you've never heard of the Sino-Soviet split, the one that lasted from the 1950s to the late 1980s? It's uh, sort of the reason why China developed nuclear weapons?


By ktlewis02 on 8/27/2006 2:03:03 PM , Rating: 2
I think China developed nuclear weapons because China wanted nuclear weapons (and America had them)


China will make it to Mars....
By gentryfunk on 8/25/2006 11:08:39 PM , Rating: 4
Having just returned from China, I can tell you two things: 1...the country has the commitment to get things done....because they are an authoritarian state, they can invest resources in a project and commit as much time and energy as they want to.....while I am not advocating an authoritarian state for the US (we are already well on our way to fascism), China can and will accomplish anything they desire. 2... Spend a month in China and you realize that they are well on their way to becoming the most economically and intellectually powerful country in the world. For example, in Shanghai, they are building a highrise at four floors per 48 hours of work....while I was there I saw the crews...amazing. That project represents commitment.




RE: China will make it to Mars....
By Seer on 8/25/2006 11:35:17 PM , Rating: 2
The Pudong is booming with apartments; however, nobody is actually living in these apartments...their value is suspect. This is a different topic than what you brought up, however.


LMAO
By Nik00117 on 8/27/2006 11:42:58 AM , Rating: 2
No we never landed on the moon.

FDR supplied hilter with war supplies

FDR even had a cup of tea with churchill and hilter in 43 in lodon as they watched german bombers bomb it to hell.

Bush is really a girl (Shh don't tell anyone)

Tupac is the real slim shady.

And if you want proof they landed on the moon, spend a few billion and fly to moon, and find the car that they left behind.

Lets see why didn't we stay with the moon, its either freezing cold, or boiling hot, no atmopshere, if you really wanted too you could prob throw rocks at each and see which person suit pops first as they die to the vuccom of space. O yea and we'd have to BRING EVERYTHING WE HAVE TO LIVE THERE. However there is a interseting theory, some scis believe in roughly 50ish years they could transform a lump of space rock into a viable living planet with moss and stuff like that or somthing, just a theory and based on the assumpitation of our earth started.

The moon will become the launch pad to mars that is why it is important today. Also I think now since America is seeing china/russia go for the moon they want in too, because heh imagine this your able to set up a military outpost armed with a nuke you could transport your peopple to the moon (If you made it liveable) and launch attacks with nukes from moon to earth without worry of your ass getting blown up with the rest of the world.




RE: LMAO
By dante76 on 8/27/2006 1:14:34 PM , Rating: 2
yea sure u landed on the moon in 1969 in first attempt but yet 33 years later with technology 1000000 times better than in 69 and with machine 100000 times better than one used in apolo mission your shuttle crashed couse of 1 broken keramique part on a wing sure and i'm real alien trust me i never lie


RE: LMAO
By Ringold on 8/27/2006 7:22:37 PM , Rating: 2
Two failures out of well over a hundred flights with the most complicated flying machine ever built in the history of man, maintained at times with parts bought off eBay (I wish I could source it, but its happened a few times with totally out of production electronic parts). That, to me, is an astounding record. Having a bell-shaped tin can crudely slam through the atmosphere is a piece of cake in comparison.. not even any control surfaces, at least, not on Apollo.


re:
By Growly on 8/25/2006 10:47:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
China is third behind the United States and the Soviet Union to successfully put a man into space.
Should really read
quote:
China is third behind the Soviet Union and the United States to successfully put a man into space.
You don't have to be nasty, just because China is destined to being the world's greatest superpower (again, and for real - not just because everyone keeps saying they are).




RE: re:
By Ringold on 8/25/2006 11:06:40 PM , Rating: 2
I wouldn't say "destined"; if you want to talk of 'destiny', then a messiah should be showing up again some time soon, right?

China could expand too fast, could get itself in a war, there could be an ecological disaster, there could be anything. How high can the standard of living ever possibly be with so many people so compact an area, anyway?

It's possible, and if you go with current trends, likely. But so are many things. Thats a loooooooooooooooong way off, man.


My Thoughts...
By Crysalis99 on 8/27/2006 6:34:18 PM , Rating: 2
You know, this is such a hot button issue that i just had to comment...Im American and i have to admit, i am embarassed to live in this generation (Well any generation for that matter because history repeats itself). A generation where we, Americans feel we are superior than everyone else in the world when we really shouldnt be. We have become so arrogant and ignorant it disgusts me. I have friends from all walks of life, whether Jewish, Hindu, even Muslim. They are all cool. And here a slect few outa the entire Muslim population make a bad rap for the entire community. I say WE, yes WE need to be kicked in the pants a few more times before we realize our wrongs...

With that said i say forget the war, dump half the money from the war into the space program and the other half in our public school systems. As for space, we need it with at the rate were sucking the life outa the planet. As for our schools, do i really need to comment on that?




RE: My Thoughts...
By tjthompson on 8/28/2006 7:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
I 100% agree with you Chrysalis. I am almost embarrassed to be American ever since Bush made it into office. America has done little but make the point that we are always right, and if you don't agree with us, you're obviously wrong. Our "War on Terror" has succeeded in little but pissing off most of the rest of the world even more and alienating ourselves from many we should be close friends with. We are instead breeding contempt for people of other countries. It's no wonder we are viewed the way we currently are by most of the world. I sincerely hope a smarter, more charismatic, and more politically correct individual takes leadership of this country in the next election and tries to undo some of this damage.


I guess
By nyte on 8/25/2006 6:46:35 PM , Rating: 2
semi-ex-communist and communist countries stick together?

We've got a major challenge on our hands!




Competition is GOOD
By headbox on 8/26/2006 11:35:27 AM , Rating: 2
Just like AMD vs. Intel, competition in space is a good thing. Maybe a Chinese man on the moon will get America to make space a priority again.




It's OK?
By dvbchina on 8/27/2006 5:47:45 AM , Rating: 2
Imagine
By judasmachine on 8/27/2006 9:47:34 AM , Rating: 2
All the people...

Anyway, if Russia, China, EU, and US all combined efforts in space exploration, it'd be a slam dunk to land on Mars, Luna, and hell whynot, Europa.




Still missing the point....
By laserred on 8/28/2006 8:13:02 PM , Rating: 2
Ringold, you seem to phrase things in an intelligent manner, but meanwhile you are missing the biggest points of these shenanigans. Research fractional reserve banking, Bilderberger group, the Rothschild family, and oh, go ask your "Government" to redeem your Federal Reserve Note for it's proper amount of gold.... oh wait, they can't, because U.S. dollars are a fiat money! Kind of precludes all the other stuff you said...




!
By Scabies on 8/26/2006 12:02:07 AM , Rating: 1
Red planet... communist nations (formerly Russia/USSR)
/pun




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