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The ISS  (Source: NASA)
China wants in, but the U.S. may not allow it

Chinese space officials today announced the country is still willing to work alongside the United States on extraterrestrial endeavors, especially the International Space Station.

"We sincerely hope to conduct cooperation with the United States in the field of space," said Li Xueyong, Vice Minister of Space and Technology.  "At some point we hope to take part in the activities relating to international space stations."

Sixteen nations are currently involved in the ISS project, but China is not one of them even though the country has one of the fastest growing space programs in the world.  China would ultimately like to have an astronaut stationed on the ISS in the future, but must convince the United States and other partners to allow a communist nation to be allowed to participate in the project.

Li did not clearly specify how China hopes to help the participating nations work on the ISS.

State media in China reported the country plans to launch its first lunar probe before November, only weeks after Japan launched one into orbit.  In 2003, China became the third nation to successfully launch an astronaut into orbit with no help from other nations.

There is growing concern over the country's expanding space program, which reached a new level after China announced it had destroyed an old satellite last January by shooting a land-based missile to destroy it.  Critics of the launch claim China could theoretically launch a missile to destroy active military satellites, though Chinese officials still claim the nation has only peaceful plans for space.


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Let 'em
By masherII on 10/16/2007 4:37:10 PM , Rating: 3
As I tirelessly point out, there is no evidence anyone has ever been harmed by Chinese falling from space. There are more Chinese found naturally on Earth then you will find in space. Let them join.




RE: Let 'em
By TMV192 on 10/16/2007 4:50:55 PM , Rating: 4
the whole problem US has with China's space program is based on the fact that Space Programs are always 1st about getting public approval to spend billions on what is actually new missile (such as ThermoNuclear) propulsion technology and 2nd about learning about Space.

Letting them join ISS is debatable because that really is more to do with the 2nd goal


RE: Let 'em
By i4mt3hwin on 10/16/2007 5:37:21 PM , Rating: 3
Masher Dos?


RE: Let 'em
By S3anister on 10/17/2007 3:53:29 AM , Rating: 2
lol the last thing we need is a Masher part deux


Well Well Well
By cheetah2k on 10/17/2007 1:03:43 AM , Rating: 3
I know the US named the station "International" Space Station, but are they willing to make it an "Interracial" Space Station ;-p

After all, China only wants this to gain experience for their ChinaNauts in space, and their eventual landing on the moon. What concerns me is that China love to "reclaim" land by creating man made land to expand their shores. I anticipate China want to "reclaim" the moon also and claim it as their own, so what is their real agenda??

In any case, China should pay up BIG to get a piece of that ISS cherry. If not, tell em to build their own.




RE: Well Well Well
By PrinceGaz on 10/17/2007 11:10:13 AM , Rating: 2
With the amount of money the Chinese government has available to throw at whatever it likes, it probably could build its own if it wanted to.

If they are refused access to the ISS, I wouldn't be surprised if they did decide to set up their own permanently manned station within a decade or so. Probably much smaller scale than the ISS is now, but still something which they could proudly announce to their people and the world as a whole.


let them join
By cambit69 on 10/16/2007 7:01:28 PM , Rating: 1
If China wants in, has significant technical, scientific, logistical, and financial contributions, then I vote to have them join. It makes me sad to see political and cultural differences impede space exploration, although that comment is naive since both countries US and China are only doing it to exploit military advantages. However if that is whats necessary to broaden space exploration then it's a necessary evil.

I've traveled and studied in China for 4 years. a lot of differences between the two states are mostly stemmed from lack of knowledge and ignorance from both sides. having a joint space project is something that should be viewed as bridging the cultural gap!

lastly, if we can do it with russia why not with china?




RE: let them join
By rsmech on 10/17/2007 11:36:37 PM , Rating: 1
The only technical contributions would be from technology we gave them. Since it was discovered how they received this technology this is the next avenue they have to gain more. If military exploits are part of this why would we involve a them? If we discovered something we would share a little with our allies. If we're not sharing with them there is a reason. I understand your experience there is something I don't have, my question is did you spend it with the people or the politicians? I don't have a lot of faith in many of our politicians, but I have less in theirs. I think showering them with an economic boom is better than a joint space project. A society with more money will seek more freedoms. They will become more self reliant.


China's Motives
By Zensphere on 10/17/2007 9:35:06 AM , Rating: 1
I see a lot of name calling but refusal of looking at the big picture. China is only interested in China. The free and open society of the US and other free contributors are coming up with Solar power from space and it is known that the moon contains Helium 3. Something that will power earth for a billion years… And now we are just suppose to OK to a communist government that has its military trying to crack and hack our military and financial computer infrastructure… Also, the US has made dramatic steps towards colonizing MARS. I can’t wait to the American flag planted there first




...
By Hieyeck on 10/17/2007 5:23:50 PM , Rating: 1
I should've probably made note of the point that I was trying to make - modern governments around the world aren't all that different.

And some things to consider for China in the past 50 years:
- It managed to quell internal strife, albeit in not the most 'humane' way (take note that it is mostly western views and western influence that opposes China's method of dealing with dissent. Most Chinese could care less about stuff like Tiananmen, because the general attitude in the country is 'don't bother us and we won't bother you')
- It has brought its infrastructure from DIRT/STONE ROADS to having the world's 2nd longest paved highway system, and a rail system to boot. Shanghai is now among the world's busiest commercial ports (air AND sea) >>see wikipedia
- From a backwards, 3rd world nation to economic (and arguably military, if by sheer numbers alone) superpower. Plenty of South American countries are still working at creating a stable economy, let alone become a power.

People bitch and whine about China not being a democracy. 4000 recorded years (and even more beyond recorded history) of uninterrupted tradition and culture (Mongols who took over parts of China ended up being assimilated into Chinese culture in a single generation) developed around authoritarian rule and being the dominant power is hard to change and it's definitely not happening overnight, nor in the next few years, but it's getting there. Last I checked, it took Americans a revolutionary war, a civil war and 200 years to reach a "true democracy" (universal sufferage didn't happen until 1971, 1920 if you want to be generous). Considering that China was still governed by a heriditary monarchy up until the early 20th century, I'd say China is ahead of the curve.

Back on topic, as much as I like to support China, I'm against China setting up any part of the ISS. While the infrastructure and technology exists in China, I doubt its ability to meet the safety standards. What I see happening is in 30 years, when the ISS is due to be retired, China will be heading up the next space station project, if not going it alone by then. As for contributing monetarily and intellectually, I see nothing wrong with it. It IS the INTERNATIONAL Space Station.




Idiotic blogger
By CookieFactory on 10/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Idiotic blogger
By Ammohunt on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: Idiotic blogger
By CookieFactory on 10/16/07, Rating: -1
china is a nice place
By GlassHouse69 on 10/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: china is a nice place
By retrospooty on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: china is a nice place
By CottonRabbit on 10/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: china is a nice place
By Ammohunt on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: china is a nice place
By Etsp on 10/16/2007 5:21:13 PM , Rating: 1
Um... China is a republic...they even refer to themselves as "The peoples Republic of China" just like North Korea is a republic, as in "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea" just as the United States is a Republic.


RE: china is a nice place
By Ammohunt on 10/16/2007 5:24:21 PM , Rating: 2
yeah...and i'm a Chinese jet pilot.


RE: china is a nice place
By Tsuwamono on 10/16/2007 5:57:18 PM , Rating: 2
how does that relate to anything.. btw good job on being a pilot.


RE: china is a nice place
By Ammohunt on 10/16/2007 11:30:09 PM , Rating: 2
Army of Darkness? nevermind. Constitutional Republic != Peoples Republic I see you got an F- in Civics


RE: china is a nice place
By TimberJon on 10/16/2007 6:00:05 PM , Rating: 1
I'm a Chinese jet pilot as well. Were you also sent home because of the Duct Tape shortage?


RE: china is a nice place
By Samus on 10/16/2007 9:19:10 PM , Rating: 2
omg lolz


RE: china is a nice place
By Hieyeck on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: china is a nice place
By ss284 on 10/16/2007 7:52:03 PM , Rating: 2
What has china gotten done in the past 50 years that makes them so amazing?


RE: china is a nice place
By Flunk on 10/16/2007 11:55:55 PM , Rating: 2
Manufactured everything the "developed world" wants to buy. Seriously, if China cut off trade to the US the economy would be essentially dead in the water.


RE: china is a nice place
By wordsworm on 10/17/2007 12:17:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What has china gotten done in the past 50 years that makes them so amazing?
Who cares about the last 50 years. Let's just say that the world owes thanks to many of its inventions over the last 4,000. Even the stuff that had been attributed to the Persians is not being found to be in fact from China. Here's just a short list of China's incalculably important contributions to the world.
1) Ceramics (they're not just good for dishes!)
2) the compass
3) the printing press
4) the rudder
5) (for boats) compartments that allow a boat, even wtih a pierced hull, to float.
6) the 3 sail boat which allowed boats to sail even when the wind wasn't directly behind them.
7) gun powder
8) cast iron
9) The computer (think non-digital)
10) earthquake sensors
11) navigation by stars (the Arabs got that from China)

The best question would be 'Where would the world be without China?' followed by 'if the US doesn't partner with them, they'll do it anyways because it's China.'

If you want to look at some of the amazing achievements in the last 50 years, only a few things come to mind. The world's largest dam is pretty much complete and an impressive railway to Lhasa that has some really impressive technologies that make it possible.


RE: china is a nice place
By oldman42 on 10/17/2007 12:48:06 AM , Rating: 2
Back in the old days China actually invented stuff. In the last 50 years they have acquired most if not all of their technologies by reverse engineering patented tech by agreeing to manufacture it for 10 units of currency to the rest of the world, then selling the copied materials for 2 units within China. This has spurred their economic growth. They openly disavow all copyrights and patents which are recognized by the rest of the world. Remember the article about CHD-DVD? Remarkably similar to HD-DVD, yet completely royalty free. Ever look at their domestic manufactured automobiles? Nearly every vehicle is directly attributable to a Euro, Japanese, or US car design.

I don't want them in on the ISS 'cos Company A has the rights to design and manufacture Component X, but I guarantee that component will suddenly show up on a China only product with no credit to the designers.


RE: china is a nice place
By cheetah2k on 10/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: china is a nice place
By adam92682 on 10/17/2007 1:20:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What has china gotten done in the past 50 years that makes them so amazing?
Orange Chicken?


RE: china is a nice place
By NullSubroutine on 10/17/2007 1:26:13 AM , Rating: 2
China is a Republic
quote:
...the term "republic" is generally applied to a state where the government's political power depends solely on the consent, however nominal , of the people governed.


And China started off as 'Maoists' which was considered a offshoot or revolution of Marxism and Leninism (known as MLM,Marxism-Leninism-Maoism).

quote:
Since the death of Mao Zedong in 1976, and the reforms of Deng Xiaoping starting in 1978, the role of Mao's ideology within the PRC has radically changed.[9] Although Mao Zedong Thought nominally remains the state ideology, Deng's admonition to seek truth from facts means that state policies are judged on their practical consequences and the role of ideology in determining policy has been considerably reduced. Deng also separated Mao from Maoism, making it clear that Mao was fallible and hence that the truth of Maoism comes from observing social consequences rather than by using Mao's quotations as holy writ, as was done in Mao's lifetime.


Just because China's government doesn't fit into your notion of a "Republic" does not mean it is not one. And to simply label Chinese "communists" means you lack understanding of what the governments are and do.

The evolution of Socialism and Communism require that you understand the purpose of the forms of society. Socialism is not a 'government' as it sets no rule on how a government could be formed, you could have a Democratic or Authoritarian (Despotism) Socialist Government (like Russia).

Communism on the other hand (more correctly Leninsim) was a government style of change, it was a movement to abolish the old aristocracy much like what we have today in the united states with Corporations (which are usually owned by historically rich families). The Aristocrats owned the land, thereby owned the people (they controlled the means of production). The Corporations own the company and thereby own the people. Communism sought all people own the land, so that the Aristocrats would no longer own the people.

Lenin also foresaw that the rich/business would always try to take back the land from the people so installed a government that would keep out the evil rich people, but Leninism is only meant to build (or slightly maintain) a country in a Capitalist world. Socialism is better suited in a non-Capitalist world. Of course this is an over simplification of things.

China could not forever sit as Maoists, the old ways of Lenin and Mao Zedong and view of land ownership would not allow China to survive in the world of globalization. The changes of Deng Xiaoping, allowed China to have 'ownership' of business. Business that does not compete against other Chinese, but against the world market. And thus allows China to compete and prosper.


RE: china is a nice place
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 4:29:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
shooting the economy to bits - Canadian dollar reaches parity (lol);


What's that got to do with anything else going on? If fact means anything to you at all (and the rest of your post suggests that you are indeed an intelligent person) you ought to recognize that Bush's handling of the economy has been superb in so far as any president directly has influence of the economy. Capital gains and dividend tax cuts especially have helped the equities markets and the tax cuts in general have lead to record, or almost record, economic growth, prosperity and retirement accounts flush with gains. If it hasn't been the longest bull market in history then it's probably the second. Unemployment is, if you ignore the normal healthy structural unemployment and what not, is practically zero.

Oh, and the Clinton years of economic growth? Interesting that it occured after the Republican's forced tax cuts.

So.. uh.. where's the economy shot to bits again, asides from idiot homeowners buying properties on a speculative basis that they couldn't afford to actually hold on to for the long run? Not that it's really hurting the rest of the macro economy, mind you, but just covering that base in case you want to spin a sob story. Larry Kudlow speaks the truth; the American economy is the greatest story never told.

quote:
and destroying all international relations - even the Brits hate America now.


Nancy Pelosi, Turkey. 'Nuff said. Inept foreign policy is not limited to one party.


RE: china is a nice place
By Fubar0606 on 10/16/2007 6:50:10 PM , Rating: 2
Lol, watch out man, the Govt scanners looking for keywords such as Yay Communism! cant tell the difference between Sarcasm and regular sentences ;) your going to be blacklisted :P


RE: china is a nice place
By Misty Dingos on 10/16/2007 6:58:05 PM , Rating: 4
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa1703520...

Amesty International's 2004 report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_prot...

Tiananmen Square 1989.

http://hrw.org/reports/2005/china0405/11.htm

Human Rights Watch report on relgious repression in China.

I really tried not to answer this post. But the absolute inanity of this position made it an imperative. This is really simple. Pay attention.

China is a repressive communist regime. They (the communist party in china) does not allow any opposition parties. None. Zero. This means that the only the ruling class has any real say in China.

They do not support any religious freedom. Whether you have any religious beliefs of your own or not is your own decision. Denying someone else to have a religious belief system is unconscionably immoral.

If you voice your opposition to the government of China you can and will likely be imprisoned for as long as the communist hierarchy would like you to be. If you continue to resist them they are likely to have you tortured. Not some whiny “Oh they made me stand on a chair and pointed at my penis while I had a bag over my head torture.” No the real stuff. Where you honestly wish they would just kill you to make it stop. The kind of torture where they don’t even ask you anything anymore they are just hurting you to make you hurt. That kind of torture. That is the kind of methodology the Chinese government uses to “correct” the wrong kind of thinking. Nice guys. If the torture doesn’t work the will take you out to the brown sand and stand you up against a wall and shoot you.

The US of A could be as bad as many of our naysayers profess and we would still be lily white saints in comparison to the Peoples “Republic” of China.


RE: china is a nice place
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/16/2007 7:18:40 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed, if you expect the U.S. would let China in on this your nuts. We let the Russians in on it because at the time they were the only space capable nation, and the cold war had just ended, we both had extensive experience in space and were looking towards the future. China is new, they lack any real experience, and its a very real possibility we could end up in a conflict with them. Their attitude towards Taiwan, North Korea, and other places to name a few puts them on the opposite end of the table from the U.S. and we remember this. Their treatment at Tiananmen Square will not quickly be forgotten either. Just for the uninformed, the bashing you do about Bush on a daily basis here in the U.S. would get you locked up or "reeducated" in China. Notice they ban any mention or reference of Tiananmen Square, Western anything (Great Firewall of China) and more. That country is carefully regulated only allowing in what they decide is "good information" and blocking out anything that might dictate otherwise.

Newsflash, China is not a superpower, they are a regional power (They do not have the ability to project power around the globe). Currently only the U.S. can be classified as a world superpower (Russia is on its way back there, but it will depend on their ability to project power overseas). Britain is a world power and can project power globally.


RE: china is a nice place
By Gul Westfale on 10/16/2007 7:36:10 PM , Rating: 3
about communism:
china isn't "really" communist, neither in name nor in actions. east germany for example called itself Deutsche Demokratische Republik, but they were really a dictatorship since only one political party was allowed in the "republic". there were other smaller ones but they never were alowed to have any power. china works more or less the same way, officially a republic but there is only one party so the head of the party is essentially a dictator for as long as he stays on top of the party.

they aren't communist in action though because communism would mean that they are a classless society in which all and everything material is shared between all people. that is obviously not the case, china (just like russia, east germany, and every "democratic" country in the world) also has a ruling class that controls the country politically and economically. the whole "communism" thing just gives them something to hide behind when people demand worker's rights or better education, wages, healthcare... "sorry same crap for everyone, we're communists!" at the same time the leaders get to be chauffered around in limos, and eat the finest foods, of course...

as for letting them in on the ISS program: yes and no. yes because the ISS has already experienced delays due to russian underfunding, and due to the columbia accident. thus allowing the chinese to manufacture components either for the station or for launching systems (like booster tanks for the shuttle) could be helpful.

no because the chinese are inexperienced; the two countries with the most experience in manned spaceflights are the US and russia, and i think europe's ariane rocket is the most successful private satellite launch program. all three have experienced massive problems (challenger, columbia, and various other incidents in the 60s and 70s for the US, similar problems for the soviets, and repeated failures of the ariane rockets even recently), despite their experience and expertise. so chinese accidents will happen, and it would not be so nice if something serious happened on the ISS, where every partner nations sand astronauts would be affected by one country's screwup. maybe in 10 to 15 years china will be ready for something like this, but not now, imho.


RE: china is a nice place
By Buspar on 10/16/2007 9:36:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Newsflash, China is not a superpower, they are a regional power (They do not have the ability to project power around the globe). Currently only the U.S. can be classified as a world superpower (Russia is on its way back there, but it will depend on their ability to project power overseas). Britain is a world power and can project power globally.

I disagree. At a previous UN agricultural meeting, China was the major power broker of trade deals. Specifically, the developed countries (including the US) would ask China to relay requests to the developing countries, who would in turn send back their replies via the same route. The developed countries wanted larger access to markets to export food, while the developing countries wanted to protect their internal markets. While they ended up not agreeing on a deal, both sides saw China as the mediating element.

Likewise, China's non-interventionist foreign policy and reliance on economic deals over military threats has given them significant influence over the developing world. Countries tend to favor those who don't a) tell them how to run their countries or b) force them into trading deals that are purposefully harmful to them (see the use of economic hit men). China's not a country people are worried will invade them (the Vietnam PM has said as much).

As a result, the developing world (including much of Africa, southeast Asia, and South America) seems to be coalescing around China as their "leader." China can be called a world power because of this. As China's world economic influence expands, it may likely become a superpower - albeit one grounded in a very different policy than the US or USSR.

(The US and USSR became superpowers arguably through "hard power" - military might to battle an enemy. China is becoming a superpower through "soft power" - mutually beneficial economic trade that earns it favors from other nations.)


RE: china is a nice place
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 4:39:37 PM , Rating: 2
In other words, yes, African dictatorships like China because they can continue to rape, pillage and otherwise not give a damn about the millions in poverty while still receiving foreign money.

What a wonderfuly superior moral position China has over the World Bank & IMF.


RE: china is a nice place
By Buspar on 10/17/2007 5:20:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What a wonderfuly superior moral position China has over the World Bank & IMF.

China does not assume it knows how to run a country better than the residents of that country. Nor does it follow a practice of brokering deals deliberately designed to undermine the local economy of a country and make them dependent on foreign imports. The World Bank, IMF, and US are guilty of both of these.

As Bremmer stated in "The J Curve," isolating a country economically as the US is fond of doing does nothing but encourage dictatorships and brutal rule (see Iran, Cuba, and Myanmar for examples of US policy failures). The most effective way to effect change in a country is by encouraging that country's economy through actual fair trade. As the material wealth and quality of life of a populace improves, they will gain enough power to enact political change. This is the tact currently being used by China.

So while China is dealing with African dictatorships today, give them a couple decades and you'll see that those countries aren't dictatorships any longer.


RE: china is a nice place
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 7:41:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So while China is dealing with African dictatorships today, give them a couple decades and you'll see that those countries aren't dictatorships any longer.


I think there's some validity to that; political freedoms follow economic prosperity and the higher education that comes along with it. I would say, to be fair to the WB, that an army of PhD economists who've spent most their lives studying economic growth really may know a thing or two more about growth and reform than the local run of the mill strongman. Not ever third world country is as lucky as, say, Rwanda and it's Harvard graduate president. Left to their own devices I'd fear they'd follow the Venezeula/Chavez example; wouldn't that be their natural inclination to keep a grip on power? Some others, surely, would follow the China example to prosperity. The World Bank & IMF at least have noble goals; China probably couldn't care any less about local outcomes. I also somehow doubt, regarding a different group, that Chavez and his attempt at a South American WB equivalent will be preaching the good world of free market capitalism.

The WB is also having a mid-life crisis and considering decoupling advice and aid. A good idea, I'd agree. I'd just rather keep the wayward flock at the WB feeding trough; at least they're concerned about the billion living in abject poverty, even if they can only do so much.


RE: china is a nice place
By Buspar on 10/16/2007 9:06:56 PM , Rating: 3
"China is a repressive communist regime. They (the communist party in china) does not allow any opposition parties. None. Zero. This means that the only the ruling class has any real say in China."

False. The Guomingdang (KMT) has operated in mainland China for a couple decades now. They are officially recognized and operate as a legitimate opposition party (I believe they even have a few people in China's congress). Many of the current KMT officials in the mainland are returnees from Taiwan, ROC. There are other parties who operate at regional/province levels, as well.

"They do not support any religious freedom. Whether you have any religious beliefs of your own or not is your own decision. Denying someone else to have a religious belief system is unconscionably immoral."

Also false. Taoism, Buddhism (real Buddhism, not the Tibetan offshoot), and ancestor worship (i.e. the old original religion) are all being allowed to flourish. While Atheism is still the state religion, they're no longer treating China's traditional culture as outdated or counter-revolutionary.

Foreign religions (Christianity) are scrutinized, as are cults, mainly out of fears they could be used for political attacks on the country. This fear stems from previous European imperialism, where Christianity was used as a propaganda weapon to subvert China's last government. Islam, however, operates mostly without interference in the border regions of China where that population resides.


RE: china is a nice place
By willj on 10/16/2007 9:30:28 PM , Rating: 2
Okay, China has done a lot of horrible things in the past, but do we punish their government by keeping them in the dark? I personally don't think that will improve their human rights issues. By allowing China to play a bigger role in international affairs, they are allowed a broader perspective on whats going on in the rest of the world. Hopefully, this will gradually change their government policies.

As a matter of fact, this has process has already been going on for the past 10-20 years in China. Yes China isn't perfect, but come on, you all gotta admit China has vastly improved in the past decade. The status of the average citizen has no doubt improved, access to foreign media has become much more readily available (yes I know about the censorship but it's better than no internet at all), growing capitalism, etc.

I will state again that China is certainly not perfect, in fact maybe even far from it, but the fact is, there is visible improvement in all aspects of the country. That's a good sign. Punishing the government by isolating them will only worsen the status quo, because you are in effect also isolating its people.


RE: china is a nice place
By mushi799 on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: china is a nice place
By Ammohunt on 10/16/07, Rating: 0
Science is a great diplomat
By Buspar on 10/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Science is a great diplomat
By slunkius on 10/17/2007 1:19:56 AM , Rating: 2
One question: if one country produces, and the other country consumes (sorta simplification, but that's how things are going now), how long the equilibrium will remain?


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By spluurfg on 10/17/2007 7:20:13 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's quite so simple in that everything is starting from one point and ending at another. The global economy is a vast web. The specific relationship between China and the US is complicated, especially given the asymmetry of market liberalisations in each country. I'm sure the equilibrium will change, as it constantly has through history, but I think I agree that trade relationships can be made to be mutually beneficial and is something worth aiming for, rather than playing with a zero-sum-game mindset.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 4:19:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but I think I agree that trade relationships can be made to be mutually beneficial and is something worth aiming for, rather than playing with a zero-sum-game mindset.


I would say that the relationship has already been beneficial for both of us, not just China. All we hear about is rough figures for job losses; never job creation, inflation protection, huge markets for corporate paper or our government bonds, or a massive and growing export market. The other side of the argument, being more technical in nature, is often completely drown out by the shrill opposition to freer trade.

In fact, if you look at the relationship, China is far more important to us by some measures than America is to China, which may be sobering for people of either political background that might be surprised to think such a thing is possible.. especially for a country that so many love to hate. Even stripping out the net foreign factor from their growth their domestic consumption increases account for around 10% of growth, leaving trade I guess to 6 to 9%.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By spluurfg on 10/17/2007 7:15:02 AM , Rating: 2
While I do acknowledge that neo-con rubbish and demagoguery abounds (including the perception that all Russian financials are ex FSB, etc) I would argue that there would be legitimate concerns regarding China just as legitimate concerns exist regarding other nations.

However, I think the point you make is a good one -- that such a scientific relationship can be an expository one, with the belief that such a relationship might be more englightened than the more common nemesis-neurosys (which often runs both ways) we see in the media. It seems that such a partnership has been successful between the US and another critical ISS partner, even if that success doesn't seem to have spilled over into politics.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 4:12:41 PM , Rating: 1
Take your propaganda elsewhere. It is the liberal anti-free trade / anti-globalisation political elements, not conservatives, that have the most harsh rhetoric regarding China. As someone else said, conservatives merely note certain legitimate security issues and I for one have never heard a conservative of any repute talk about war with China over *any* issue other than if China were to enforce it's view of it's dominion and take Taiwan -- which is an issue China itself raises, not the United States, and has existed since.. what.. the Formosa Resolution?

You're absolutely right regarding our symbiotic economic relationship, you're just wrong as to who you're trying to tag with blame. Should it even surprise you that the random political blunder of the month, possibly of 2007, has been Congressional Democrats pissing off Turkey to no clear end except perhaps to raise campaign money and scuttle an alliance in the war on terror? The best possible defense is that they were simply so entirely ignorant of what it was they were doing that they didn't see the repercussions but that's hard to believe since 8 former Secretaries of State pleaded with Pelosi to back down. Trade unions push the Democrats to oppose Chinese imports and FTA's in general, though I think the few conservatives that also vote against them deserve some naming and shaming.. but they're in the minority.

I'll also point out that Bush has done an impressive amount of work trying to get as many trade deals done with countries as he possibly could.. but, again, it's the Democrats scuttling those deals, not "Neocons". Compare that to the trade language coming out of Democratic presidential hopefuls, which is bleak enough as to almost be scary.

I'll finally ask what the hell you think the evil corporate filter you think is regarding China as watching any given hour of CNBC will tell you that filter is one of amazement and admiration for a country that in some ways is more economically free than our own. I'd suggest that whatever slant Fox or CNN adds regarding China isn't corporate but political, which is entirely different.

Perhaps it'd be beneficial to move out from whatever deeply entrenched liberal circles or groups you travel or communicate in and get a more balanced view of current events. I'll knock Republican's for many things, especially Bush, but to suggest that "neocons" somehow have a monopoly, even a majority, of the anti-Chinese feelings in America is just hilarious.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By Buspar on 10/17/2007 5:08:56 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you that liberals are also guilty of anti-China propaganda. From what I've seen recently, though, the loudest yelling has come from the right on this issue. For example, most of the (baseless) opposition to the feds buying Lenovo computers came from Republicans. Also, Bush all but insulted Hu Jintao when he visited back in 2006 by not giving him a proper state dinner - standard procedure when the head of state of your chief economic partner comes to visit. Even during the height of the Cold War, the US treated the Soviet prime ministers with more respect when they visited the White House.

I bring up corporate slant because of what's happened in the past when a Chinese company has tried to purchase American companies (ex. CNOOC trying to purchase Unocal, Haier trying to buy Maytag). In both cases, the media started carrying strong anti-China rhetoric, stirring up fears that China was trying "buy out the US" and such. None of this was true, of course - it was motivated by CNOOC's and Haier's rivals in the bids (Chevron and Whirlpool) who used their advertising and lobbying dollars for influence.

I think it's fair to say both sides of America's political spectrum tend to be less than objective when dealing with China. It's a perfect example of Edward Said's "orientalism" at work in the modern day. This is why letting them into the ISS is such a good idea: NASA is less likely to throw propaganda around than other agencies.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 6:59:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, Bush all but insulted Hu Jintao when he visited back in 2006 by not giving him a proper state dinner - standard procedure when the head of state of your chief economic partner comes to visit.


quote:
In both cases, the media started carrying strong anti-China rhetoric, stirring up fears that China was trying "buy out the US" and such.


I think we have to differentiate between political mumblings to keep the ignorant masses and political bases from erupting and actual action.

The Bush record on trade is impressive given how little political capital he had to spend. Despite occasionally having to join the masses in denouncing one thing or another or giving Hu a public slight he has faithfully pursued FTA's with everyone he could. If not for the typical sticking points on farm subsidies he might've succeeded with the Doha round of talks.. perhaps could've still if the Democrats hadn't allowed his fast-track trade authority to expire. He even brought a grizzled Wall Street veteran aboard in the Treasury, who walks a fine line between saying the right things in public but working diligently behind the scenes to attend to our business interests. Not giving Hu his state dinner had no real impact.

The Democrats, on the other hand, have been in power less than a year and already have alarmed every business paper and magazine I read with not only trade deals already scuttled or mangled but their promises, likely to be kept if elected, of future trade skepticism. A little Googling or searching of papers like WSJ or The Economist will show as much; The Economist almost weekly frets about the stark shift from Bill Clintons embrace of trade to his wifes rhetoric -- which is milder than some of her companions.

I'll agree though that neither side is entirely objective.

Oh, and Presidents of both parties had far more class, IMHO, during the Cold War than the current breed does, heh.


RE: Science is a great diplomat
By Ringold on 10/17/2007 7:20:19 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and ever since the Dubai thing, Neal Boortz (the only radio talk show I listen to, unless Clark Howard counts) has been blasting the Bush administration on trade protectionism. Boortz doesn't represent all Republican's, of course, but one has to remember that a large portion of the Republican Party's base is in small government and liberal economic policy -- liberal in the classic sense of free markets, not the modern sense of socialism. The opposite parties base is in labor unions. These fundamentals show no sign of being deviated from to any large degree.


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