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  (Source: AP)
Today's launch marks a major milestone for the Chinese space program

China today successfully launched its first lunar probe, a big first step in the country's three-step space program that hopes to put an astronaut on the moon by 2020. 

The Chang'e 1 orbiter, named after a mythical Chinese goddess who lives on the moon, launched from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center at 6:05 p.m. local time with a large trail of smoke.  Several thousand tourists and space officials watched as the 5,070-pound probe was sent into space aboard a Long March 3A carrier rocket.

Today's launch "marks another milestone in China's aerospace program after man-made satellites and manned space flights," said Zeng Peiyan, Chinese vice-premier.

China is the third country to launch its own astronaut into space, behind only the United States and Russia, and has plans to possibly build its own space platform as part of its multi-step plan to get taikonauts on the moon.

Chang'e 1 is expected to be in orbit around the moon for one year, offering Chinese researchers satellite images of the moon and other data that will be crucial for the country to launch a space vehicle and astronaut to the moon.  The first round of satellite images should be sent back to researchers sometime in late November.

Chang'e 1's launch comes several weeks after the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) successfully launched  the Selenological and Engineering Explorer (SELENE), the largest lunar mission since the NASA Apollo mission.  JAXA officials recently said the probe was in a correct position over the moon and is ready to begin its project to analyze and map the surface of the moon.  The growing Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) is currently working on a lunar mission it hopes to launch sometime next spring.

Even though the launch is a great success for China, the United States is concerned about the possible militarization of space, especially after China destroyed an aging satellite with a land-based anti-satellite missile.  According to a government official, China wants to become part of the international space station project with more than a dozen other participating nations, but the United States is reluctant to let the Communist nation participate.  China has said numerous times it does not want to create an arms race in space.


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that's one stall step for China....
By maverick85wd on 10/24/2007 7:33:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
a big first step in the country's three-step space program that hopes to put an astronaut on the moon by 2020.


I couldn't help but chuckle. I know it's significant because only us and Russia have done it, but we did it before I was even born.

Either way, I think China could bring a lot to the table in terms of space exploration if we allowed them to participate in the space station program. I can see why we'd be reluctant to allow them to participate, but if they can be civil I'd hope to think we as Americans can be as well.




RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maverick85wd on 10/24/2007 7:34:44 PM , Rating: 2
meant to say small in the subject line ;-)

damn typos...


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 7:45:51 PM , Rating: 1
The world would be nice if diplomatic relations were all that would be needed, but thats not such the case.

I don't see us being civil in these terms with China anytime in the near future - especially since they are currently contract to built fighter planes for Iran to be delivered around 2010.

With exception to the Iraq war, and Al-Quada, Iran is our biggest threat because of their desperation for nuclear energy and nuclear warheads. That being said, China's link to Iran is a very, very sour one right now.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maverick85wd on 10/24/2007 7:58:18 PM , Rating: 3
I understand, I was just saying it would be nice because they could probably offer a lot to the program... I never said it was likely to happen.

good point though, I wasn't really thinking about that


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 8:09:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'm with you in thinking that many technologically advanced countries could offer some insight and forward thinking to our program.

However, the other side of me says that we are the most technologically advanced country in the world - in regards to space & military - so could they really offer things that our geniuses haven't thought of yet?

Im not a genius, so I don't know either haha


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 10:53:47 AM , Rating: 2
"we are the most technologically advanced country in the world - in regards to space & military"

I'm sure that's what people thought in 1957 too, until the russians gave us a swift kick in the ass. Instead of chanting USA number 1!!!! I guess you could make that arguement for the military, but look at the actual state of things in space for a second. The shuttle (designed in the 70s) is being scrapped only a few years from now because it never actually fulfilled it's promise of low cost launches and is inadequate for say lunar exploration programs. (If anything the russian buran, designed in the 80s is more advanced, having the ability to do a completely automated landing for example, but they too realized it wasn't viable, and scrapped it after only a couple of flights).

And what's replacing the shuttle? A makeshift launch vehicle put together from bits and pieces of technology some of which was developed during the apollo era.
Now there isn't necessarily anything wrong with using old technology... the russians have been using the soyuz vehicles (designed in the 60s) with much success, but to say that what we have is the most advanced? Stop deluding yourself.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 10:58:12 AM , Rating: 3
Don't delude yourself into thinking you know everything about our space program and what we have available. $17 Billion per year is not only invested in old technology. And the new technology that we do have is always made public - to keep it out of the hands of places like Russia.

You only know as much as they want you to know about the space program, don't forget that.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:12:39 AM , Rating: 2
Are you serious?! Nasa's budget is public. You can go online and find out exactly how much they spend and on what. It has to be, otherwise they would never get funding. Congress reviews it every year and decides whether to increase it or not. Who's going to fund those top secret programs that only exist in your imagination? They are not the military, no matter how much you want them to be. The military's budget is definitely not transparent.

But since you mention their budget don't forget that they are the National Aeronautics and Space administration, which means that a chunk of their budget doesn't even go towards space exploration.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:15:00 AM , Rating: 3
Yes I understand that. And their budget is made public.

What i am saying is that the goverment has special projects and technology in development where that knowledge is not made to the public - this goes for NASA, Military, etc. And it shouldnt be.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:02:47 PM , Rating: 3
So all public funding is.. made public?

Tell me, then, what precisely is the NRO up to these days, eh? :)

There are probably NRO-like groups that we don't even know exist. There is to my knowledge no independent group that has the capacity to measure the economy to such a high degree of precision that discrepancies between apparent tax revenue, tax expenditures and bond issuance so at to detect several tens of billions sloshing around. In fact.. such data collection is probably almost impossible.. and if I remember it right we didn't even know the NRO existed until long after the fact.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 2:17:02 PM , Rating: 2
This is irrelevant. For any of these secret projects to exist there would have to be a discrepancy of billions of dollars in the nasa budget. That's not a few million here and there that could go unnoticed. But even if you don't believe that there's the obvious part, if Nasa had this technology they would use it. I'm sure they would love to save face considering they will have to rely on russian hardware for years just to reach the international space station before the Shuttle successor comes online.
The military might have such technology, but that doesn't help Nasa. Even a decade ago it was said that their spy satellites were on par with the hubble space telescope... and there are how many? Doesn't mean they will ever donate them.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:22:36 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't actually say NASA. I said the NRO -- which works in space.

If you look in to the history, probably even on wikipedia, of the NRO and its ilk you will see that there was in fact a missing slush fund worth billions which nobody could account for. NASA just does the kiddy stuff.

God, you're a trusting soul. Uncle Sam loves citizens like that. :) I don't know what technology they may have (I bet $1 they've got basic quantum computers), but it's almost a given that there are some assets and capabilities of which we have no idea of. If some agency didnt then it'd be about the first time since WW2.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By lompocus on 10/25/2007 11:19:11 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not sure if I can say this or not but...

add invisibility since 1987 to your list. I have connections :P

And you hear about the new carrier we're developing for use up to 2100? What I do is take whatever is announced, use some common sense, and take 1/2 of the things they say and they probably have uber advanced versions of them already.

There's also the blackbird, which said connection never saw in production but swears it had alien tech in it.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By LogicallyGenius on 10/26/2007 12:36:04 AM , Rating: 1
Ya sure theu se alien technology
and they cant even handle a huricane emergency , HA!

They claim to have reached the moon yet millions live in poverty and there is no free education or medicine

Now look at Cuba today ;-)


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/26/2007 7:04:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They claim to have reached the moon yet millions live in poverty

You people are seriously ridiculous. Millions live in poverty - and how many of those millions are people who dropped out of high school or just got out of college and have minimum, or close to that, wage jobs? Many! There are also people who are flat out lazy bums who dont want to work.

quote:
there is no free education or medicine

Those things are not free. They have to be paid for. They are being paid by taxpayers - the middle and upper class are supporting all these "millions in poverty" you talk about.

Dumbass.


By NarcoticHobo on 10/28/2007 3:43:19 AM , Rating: 2
About 20% of the world's population lives on $1 or less Purchasing Power a day. To be clear, this does not mean they have one U.S. dollar every day, but rather the ability to buy the same amount of goods $1 could by in the US.

Considering simply getting enough food to survive is the number one concern for people with so little I highly doubt this large part of the population is simply high school drop outs or minimum wage workers. Hell, a minimum wage job would be a godsend to billions of people in the world.

As for your comments on taxing, you might be suprised to find out exactly how little the top 10% are responsible for after all the legal loopholes they jump through. The real fiscal responsibility rests on the middle class, and with the indebt, mortgaged to the hilt lifestyle most live these days it might just be prudent for them to set up these types of systems.

Try to remember most of the world does not live in the US.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Kyanzes on 10/25/2007 1:21:33 PM , Rating: 4
we are the most technologically advanced country in the world - in regards to space & military

It's a very confident statement. Let me deal with the second part of your statement first:

- "we have the technologically most advanced military"

China has nuclear striking ability which effectively means that said advanced army is nullified in regard of China. So called "advanced military" can be used against vastly inferior enemies effectively, no question about it. Best example would be Iraq. Let me ask you what good this advanced army turned out to be in Vietnam when you "took over the effort" from France? It was already superior in that time frame too. (Of course taking a territory by force and holding it under control are two entirely different things. The latter requires politics where advanced armies can't do squat.)

- "we are the more advanced in regard of space technology"

How long? China is currently spending immense amount of money on research and they increase the funds 20% every year. Can you comprehend a 20% annual increase of R&D funds when it comes to a country so economically massive as China? And where do researchers go? Where the money is! Scientists want fame and money for their research. They don't care wether it's a country with, don't know, huge Disney parks or cool UFO sites, they care about the funding. And China does everything in its power to become the dominant R&D player on the field. The space race they have re-ignited is probably the most dangerous (from R&D domination point of view) because as we all know space exploration virtually needs all fields of science to be actively researched. The USA most certainly has a very good standing on the scientific field, however, scientific research is not something that you "achieve" and sit back when you have the results but something that you *DO*. You cannot say that, heck, "the US has reached level 50 on the field of research " ( as if it would be an RPG attribute) and conveniently rest while the others manage to keep up, scientific research is constant and secrets are extemely hard to be kept in the information age. When something new comes out others can already use that info to build on. The USA started to spread its wing with the coming of the Second World War: industrialization and science ignited and started to pump out results in ever increasing proportions. The US however slowed down considerably as the Soviet Union neared it's end. Large scale projects got abandoned: Unmanned *OR* Manned Interstellar (!!!) Travel has been set aside (Project Orion if it means anything to you) and medium ones also got the nerfbat like the infamous SkyLab project. Of course these are only the needles in the haystack. This meant tremendous hit on science because seeing the financial disinterest and lack of results no one really wanted to finance such projects anymore. These cancellations eventually led to a decline in R&D on the space exploration field and only now, after 20-30 years, is the USA about to relaunch projects that had been derailed artificially long ago. I'm NOT saying that the USA is unimportant or anything silly like that. No. Far from it. It's just got a competitor that is now soaring and still on the rise economically while the USA will have to keep up (or maintain it's current dominance if you like) by serious rearrangement of it's otherwise tremendous scientific power in an economically stagnating state.

On Chinese R&D:

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=article&articl...

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002290.html

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/it/?cat=174

Project Orion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nucl...

SkyLab:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylab


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:06:53 PM , Rating: 1
Chinese corporate R&D is 1 or 2% of global R&D spending, where as the US has north of 40% of global R&D spending. Given the fact that national space ventures are the big deals of the past century and that private entities engaging in commercial space operations is going to be the cornerstone of this century, I see no problem nor any threat.

Sure, NASA was allowed to fall by the way side, I wont disagree on that point, but private citizens are picking up the torch.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 2:21:02 PM , Rating: 2
That's all well and good, I'm just as excited about that as you are... but private citizens won't be able to come up with the probably 50 billion necessary for a stunt like landing on mars, or the billions needed to get to the moon. (at least not until there's a booming space economy, and that could take decades).


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:28:12 PM , Rating: 1
Biggelow Aerospace is already working on it. Price tags in the billions are what you get when you assign a horde of government engineers to perform a rigid task with brute force. I bet NASA never would've thought Scaled Composites could do what it did and what it'll soon be doing with regularity with anything less than a billion. Craft like the Shuttle (and Orion), while impressive, are commercial monstrosities.

While Biggelow has already demonstrated the ability to get functional space station components to orbit at low cost (using abandoned NASA technology no less), he's already planning that his second station will be at a Lagrange point to be lowered on to a prepared lunar surface. As Masher has said, if you're to the Moon you're half way to Mars.

Of course, he wouldn't go to Mars any time soon, there's not enough profit there at the moment, but it's inevitable. If NASA does get to Mar's I'd bet it'd be using technology first pioneered by the likes of, if not necessarily, Biggelow.


By LogicallyGenius on 10/26/2007 12:45:31 AM , Rating: 1
Did u notice

China goes to moon without a space shuttle, HOWz That ?


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/24/2007 9:01:51 PM , Rating: 2
"Iran is our biggest threat because of their desperation for nuclear energy and nuclear warheads."

Is that true? Do we have any reliable source for this kind of info, or are we relying on the Bush administration spreading fear? - I am not poking a stick at you, just asking a genuine question.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 9:13:57 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, its absolutely true. Iran has made it very clear that they have every intention of developing a large nuclear facility to use for "energy". They are so adamant in doing so that they have threated the US and anyone who interferes with the ability to shoot off 11,000 rockets in a matter of 60 seconds to predetermined destinations.

I understand that people have mixed feelings on the Bush administration, however this particular subject is not one to be confused with democrat vs. republican debate. Iran does harbor & fund terrorist, and i dont think anyone will deny that knowledge, their leader has claimed that the haulocaust never happened, and wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map. We are already in deep discussions internally on what to do if Iran does not comply with the request of not only the US, but several other nations, in telling them they cannot have any nuclear facilities what so ever.

Make no mistake, Iran is by no means a friend of the United States at all.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/24/2007 9:36:41 PM , Rating: 2
I was aware that they want to develop a nuclear facility to use for energy, and they deny use as weapons... I had not heard anything about them making any threats much less 11,000 rockets. Doing a quick google, I don't see it either.

Its hard to tell what is real and what is not. For me, to assume its true because Bush says so is not going to happen. I am more inclined to assume its a lie if Bush says it. Not being a Bush hater on this, its jsut that we have seen him misjudge, if not flat out lie, too many times about war and the justification for war in the past 6 years.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 9:52:27 PM , Rating: 2
Well as we all know, there are two reasons to build a nuclear facility: energy and weapons. A country like Iran, who is not that dissimilar from N. Korea, we know what they are doing. Especially if they are proactively threatening military force to anyone over it, just proves they are not trying to be diplomatic about it at all, in fact they could care less.

Here is a link for you to read up on that part (by a very liberal media outlet no less): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21389599/

As far as the justification of the war, there are different outlooks on that outside of standard "we didnt find WMD's" approach - because remember, Clinton started the entire process of saying that Iraq had WMD's, in the term before Bush went into office. We already know Iraq had forms of WMD's because they used them on the Kurds. But seeing as how we gave them so much notice before the invasion, no one can say with certainty that they were not moved out of the country before we got there - perhaps to Syria. Anyways, as far as the justification for the war, do not blame just Bush, because congress(democrats and republicans) signed off as well to start the war, going on the assumption that WMD's were there (which as i said was started by Clinton). So anyone who blames Bush solely (not saying he didnt have anything to do with it, just not the only one, nor were the republicans) for the Iraq war is either mininformed, or placing an agenda because of which political party they back.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/24/2007 10:01:41 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the link. Looks like a fine mess. The good news (I hope) is that if Iran is doing this type of thing, it will be known, and we should have alot more allies to apply diplomatic pressure than we did in the last war.

And lets not bring Clinton into WMD's. He started a process trying to get our inspectors in to Iraq to search for WMD's. At the time it all came to a head Bush knew there were none, Bush's people knew there were none, even Colin Powell told Bush there were none, and there was no justification to go in. Bush told congress and the rest of the world there were WMD's when there was none. But that... is another thread.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 10:09:19 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed - the problem today with all this "he said - she said" stuff is that so much of it is political propaganda. Much of the justification for the war was probably in benefit of the republican party, and much of the unjustification of the war is political propaganda on the democrats side to take majority in congress and the seat in the white house.

I dont think anyone will argue that political propaganda covers the media, and that much of what we hear is false, or taken out of context - something that both parties are guilty of.

So in short, i dont know how much i believe that bush knew there were none, his people knew, and powell knew - because it all depends on who is reporting this information and what their agenda is. For example, very liberal media outlets do falsify information to discredit republican political figures (Hannity, OReilly, Limbaugh, Bush, etc). Both groups do this and its a never ending circle of mistrust.


By howtochooseausername on 10/24/2007 10:37:50 PM , Rating: 1
The reasons for going to war in Iraq seemed tenuous. But if there is a danger of Iran being hostile, or destabilizing force, Bush should take them out. This is a good chance to do the right thing, his term is almost over, and he's got troops in Iraq already.

Most countries in the Middle East would support us.


By retrospooty on 10/24/2007 10:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
Yup... all true. Its a really whacked out state that humanity exists in, and always has as far back as written history allows us to see.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 12:02:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And lets not bring Clinton into WMD's. He started a process trying to get our inspectors in to Iraq to search for WMD's. At the time it all came to a head Bush knew there were none, Bush's people knew there were none, even Colin Powell told Bush there were none, and there was no justification to go in. Bush told congress and the rest of the world there were WMD's when there was none.

Just wanted to give you some insight to your own words.
First is a quote from Bill Clinton made in 2003 on why we went to war with Iraq:
quote:
"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."

Here is what was known by 1998 based on Iraq's own admissions:

* That in the years immediately prior to the first Gulf War, Iraq produced at least 3.9 tons of VX, a deadly nerve gas, and acquired 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.

* That Iraq had produced or imported some 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.

* That Iraq had produced 8,500 liters of anthrax.

* That Iraq had produced 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.

* That Iraq had produced 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

* That Iraq had produced or imported 107,500 casings for chemical weapons.

* That Iraq had produced at least 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.

* That Iraq had produced 25 missile warheads containing germ agents (anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum).

It is this list of weapons--not any CIA analysis under either the Clinton or Bush administrations--that has been at the heart of the Iraq crisis.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Artic...


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 12:22:00 PM , Rating: 2
As much as I don't like Clinton, dragging him into this is fallacy. Since you like links I've got one for you.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?i...

This is a new book that just came out that illustrates very well why the intelligence community thought there might be WMDs in Iraq, and why there weren't any found. Because the whole case was built on BS intelligence, the words of an Iraqi cab driver... And anyone that doubted the validity of his reports were simply ignored or silenced.
The difference is that Clinton sat on this information and did nothing... while Bush used it as a case to go to war.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 1:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
Michael Moore approves of this book... that right there is enough to make me believe this book if full of the lies and political propaganda that is out there to discredit the republicans.. it is politically motivated and therefore cannot be trusted.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 1:58:29 PM , Rating: 2
Hallelujah!

Hows that for "an inconvenient truth"? lol


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 2:11:13 PM , Rating: 2
Nice try, except you said he approves the book, not that he wrote the book, which means your post means didlysquat. Unless you can come up with some convincing arguements on why the actual author of the book is wrong I could care less.
I could say the same thing about any republican...

George Bush disaproves of this book, that right there is enough to make me believe this book is full of truth and discredits the political propoganda spread by republicans. His disaproval is politically motivated and can not be trusted.

See how that works?


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 2:19:20 PM , Rating: 2
Well lets see. The author of the book works for the LA Times, a notorious "media matters" type of corrupt liberal news. The LA Times actually ousted thei Op-Ed who tried to shake things up by showing a conservative viewpoint back in 2005, and was thrown out because of the number of liberal complaints to the paper.

How is that for "political agenda"?


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 2:29:27 PM , Rating: 2
Just because someone has an agenda doesn't automatically mean that everything they say is false. Otherwise how can you believe what the republicans say considering they have an agenda? Hell that would automatically mean that everything you yourself say is false... since you have an agenda too.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 2:34:31 PM , Rating: 2
When people have an agenda, they take facts & falsifications and manufacture them into myths that they want you to believe. They use their agendas to get people to turn to their "Side" in order to get them to do something for their benefit. What this guy says in his book is no more true or false than the myth of Bigfoot or the Lochness Monster.

I do not have an agenda, because I am not trying to get you to do anything. I am pleading a case in which I believe I am providing facts to prove you wrong - which on some things I believe I have. But in no way and I trying to convice you to come to the republican side. A debate is not always about someone being right, its about that somoene proving someone else wrong.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 2:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
What this guy says in his book is no more true or false than the myth of Bigfoot or the Lochness Monster.

And you reached this conclusion based on what exactly? And how does this guy benefit if you believe him? He isn't running for president or even trying to start a political movement. Nothing is going to change whether you believe him or not. He gains nothing if you join his "side". I suppose you could argue that he's hoping to sell more books, but show me a writer who wouldn't want to. How is it any different then what you said about yourself?
The book isn't even about republicans anyway, it's about the intelligence community, and how they failed. I doubt every single person in the intelligence community is a republican. In fact the first people that spun these myths weren't even americans, they were germans.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 2:58:24 PM , Rating: 2
What this guy is doing is trying to distort the Iraq war and discredit the Bush administration. You say he benefits nothing, but as he is a proud liberal and registered democrat - he would not be writing a book on this if his purpose was not to discredit the right wing, and sway people to the left wing. That part is common sense.

Its the same thing as how republicans actually like Ann Coulter because what she says is correct in their eyes, and the democrats state that everything she says is false, racist, pro-war, and pro-murder. She has an agenda to sway the middles to the right wing.

The main difference between the two is that Ann Coulter is not employed by anyone, much less one of the most liberal media companies in the united states. That alone shows the authors agenda because if he was not a full fledged liberal and only concerned with writing what liberals want to hear, he wouldnt have a job with that paper.


By maven81 on 10/25/2007 3:51:54 PM , Rating: 2
"What this guy is doing is trying to distort the Iraq war and discredit the Bush administration. You say he benefits nothing, but as he is a proud liberal and registered democrat - he would not be writing a book on this if his purpose was not to discredit the right wing, and sway people to the left wing. That part is common sense."

That would have been common sense if it was true. First of all some of the intelligence failures he talks about happened during the clinton administration. If he was a bleeding heart liberal like you try to portray him he would have left that part out. Second he doesn't have to discredit the right wing, bush does that every time he opens his mouth. But what you don't seem to understand is that he's not saying the intelligence failure was the right wing's fault. It wasn't. He's not blaming the right wing for crappy intelligence. I know he would blame them for using crappy intelligence to start a war, but that's not what the book is about.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 2:37:19 PM , Rating: 2
wow you really need to remove those rose colored glasses.

quote:
There used to be an old rule that *real* journalists lived by: 'All governments are run by liars, and nothing they say should be believed.' We've come a long way from those days, to a media that has been cowed into submission and accepting the 'official story.' Thank the gods for Bob Drogin and his refusal to believe. It's journalists like him and books like CURVEBALL that give many of us a sliver of hope that we can turn things around. --Michael Moore, Director of "Fahrenheit 9/11," and "Sicko"


Because of what he stands for and what he supports, anything Michael Moore says or does has to be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing Michael Moore says can be believed. If he supports this book, then that means this book must also be taken with a grain of salt and full of lies and "half truths". This is enough to spread their own propaganda and dig deeper into the brains of the sheep that also tend to follow the liberal line of thinking in this country.
If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

The truth is that the weapons where there, Clinton and his intelligence knew about it but he was too busy getting a hummer to care about the deaths of thousands of people overseas. Thats the problem, he didn't care.
When sex is on a males mind, his thinking gets warped and he becomes complacent with how things are. "they've got bombs? send more inspectors, thats worked for the past decade... oh yeah baby a little to the left". He gave them so much warning ahead of time that when time came to take action during the next presidency, they were already moved or destroyed.
The facts (not propaganda) stated the bombs were there. Facts and information compiled since before Bush I was in office. Anything discrediting that such as this book is based on lies and incomplete information, anything to spread the liberal propaganda.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 3:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
You're totally using induction here which is bogus...

Michael Moore likes the book---
Michael Moore lies---
therefore
The books lies---

This is no different then the classic

All observed crows are black.
therefore,
All crows are black.

But I'm not sure if logic even works with you. You keep saying the weapons where there... what is your evidence when even the UN inspectors said there were no weapons? Were you there?


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 3:14:07 PM , Rating: 2
mdogs said it perfectly below:

quote:
UN Weapons inspectors - you mean some of the ones that are from France - who has trade agreements (oil & weapons) with these terrorist countries? Yeah, lets believe them.


Yet our own US and coalition inspectors found these weapons with every visit and threatened action if it wasn't resolved... and when it wasn't we took action without the UN.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 3:58:31 PM , Rating: 2
Right... those mobile bio weapons labs... where are they?
And I actually agree that the UN is often silly and stupid. But in this case they were absolutely right, and you don't want to admit it. Invading would have been stupid even if Saddam DID have these weapons, because he had no means of getting them to the US. Yes terrorists blah blah blah, except terrorists hated saddam. Iran hated saddam. Now with him gone both are enjoying a massive jump in influence. Had he still been there we wouldn't even be talking about Iran right now, because Iran would be scared of him.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 4:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right... those mobile bio weapons labs... where are they?

Syria
quote:
But in this case they were absolutely right,

They were only right if the point was to keep us out of Iraq because certain UN countries have close ties with Iraq in an Oil for Weapons exchange. Not naming names...FRANCE.
quote:
Invading would have been stupid even if Saddam DID have these weapons, because he had no means of getting them to the US.

Saddam himself would not have brought the weapons to the US, but he was buying and selling weapons with terrorist groups - and what would happen if a terrorist group got ahold of that stuff? If thats not enough reason, then how about the reason that the liberals preach everyday in regards to the redistribution of wealth system & socialism: care about one another, help the helpless, blah blah. So we overtake a violent ruthless dictator who strikes fear into his own people, murders his own people, has rape rooms, and all the sudden, the Bush Administration is wrong for helping the actual innocent people in Iraq from the terrorizing dictator. Talk about flip flopping - dont spend tax payers money on fighting world issues and terrorist harboring countries, take the tax payers money and give it to the poor so they can benefit from the people who actually are successful.

Dont you get it, the liberal debate on the war is all political BS to take the majority of congress and take seat in the white house. It has been that way since Clinton was out of office. Its really all part of the democratic plan.

If you need further proof of that, there is the Limbaugh smear scandal which no one can deny unless they are absolute morons, the jesse macbeth praise from democrats. Both of these were proven false, and thats exactly what anti war liberals do. They take things that are not true, find ways to manipulate the liberal public, and advertise it as facts. Go watch MSNBC or CNN....go tell me one good think you see on there about the Bush Administration or the war or the soldiers in the war. How about Lt. Murphy who received the only medal of honor so far in the war - did they even mention that? No, but instead, they ran a front page article about how the Laos people are mad that we still havent cleaned up vietnam after the war - but the 3 million dollars we gave them in 2007 doesnt count.

Liberalism is filled with lies in order to change the consitution, create a nanny state with more power, and go back to the ways of certain european countries (didnt we leave 200+ yrs ago becuase of that?????).


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 5:05:27 PM , Rating: 2
"Syria"

And your evidence for this is what?! Unless you have proof you're just guessing.

"They were only right if the point was to keep us out of Iraq because certain UN countries have close ties with Iraq in an Oil for Weapons exchange."

You forget that there are American companies that are making money in their place. Contractors tasked with rebuilding the infrastructure we ourselves destroyed. So what you're saying is, we merely kicked them out, to make money ourselves... That doesn't exactly look good now does it.

"Saddam himself would not have brought the weapons to the US, but he was buying and selling weapons with terrorist groups"

I believe this is speculation. There's no evidence of a link between Saddam and AlQueda for example. As much as some people want you to believe there is. And why would there be? He was a secular leader, they are religious fanatics. They'd love to destroy him themselves.

"care about one another, help the helpless, blah blah. So we overtake a violent ruthless dictator who strikes fear into his own people, murders his own people, has rape rooms, and all the sudden, the Bush Administration is wrong for helping the actual innocent people in Iraq from the terrorizing dictator."

You're joking right? I don't have the exact numbers (because no one knows for sure how many civilians have died so far, but if you believe that the situation there right now is better then it was when Saddam was in charge you're crazy. Rape rooms are bad, but having your head blown off when you're shopping for veggies at the local market is a bit worse no? Dozens of civilians are dying every single day. Even running water is a problem in some places, I'm sure the electrical grid suffered a lot of damage as well and so on. Every day life is now a challenge for countless people. I'd say they have bigger problems.
Besides... we didn't have a problem with this "ruthless dictator" when he was our friend did we? http://cedarlounge.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/rum... the "great reagan" certainly did not heh.

"Dont you get it, the liberal debate on the war is all political BS to take the majority of congress and take seat in the white house. It has been that way since Clinton was out of office."

Funny, I remember a certain George Bush had an over 90% approval raiting after 9/11. Since clinton was out of office indeed...

"If you need further proof of that, there is the Limbaugh smear scandal which no one can deny unless they are absolute morons"

Please, this is nothing compared to the crap republican senators themselves have said about democrats.

"go tell me one good think you see on there about the Bush Administration or the war or the soldiers in the war."

I have a better idea... you tell me what's going good about the war. How safer we are, how terrorism is reduced etc...

Who cares about liberals or not liberals.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 5:22:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And your evidence for this is what?! Unless you have proof you're just guessing.

I for one, trust the intelligence that is out there. You may not, and that is your perogative.

quote:
You forget that there are American companies that are making money in their place. Contractors tasked with rebuilding the infrastructure we ourselves destroyed. So what you're saying is, we merely kicked them out, to make money ourselves... That doesn't exactly look good now does it.

Thats not what happened, and its not like the Iraqi government is paying us to rebuild their city. We funded the war, we are rebuilding their society for them. The only persons over who dont agree are the extremists who thrived under the leadership of Saddam because they themselves struck the fear into the people.

quote:
I believe this is speculation. There's no evidence of a link between Saddam and AlQueda for example. As much as some people want you to believe there is. And why would there be? He was a secular leader, they are religious fanatics. They'd love to destroy him themselves.

This is not speculation. We know for sure France was providing weapons to Sadam, as well as other "groups". Russia also sold them weapons to pay for their debt from the cold war. Sadam was not just a religious fanatic, he was a hitlereque dictator who provided weaponry to terrorist groups to help strike fear into his own people and to keep other countries out of Iraq.

quote:
You're joking right? I don't have the exact numbers (because no one knows for sure how many civilians have died so far, but if you believe that the situation there right now is better then it was when Saddam was in charge you're crazy. Rape rooms are bad, but having your head blown off when you're shopping for veggies at the local market is a bit worse no? Dozens of civilians are dying every single day. Even running water is a problem in some places, I'm sure the electrical grid suffered a lot of damage as well and so on. Every day life is now a challenge for countless people. I'd say they have bigger problems.

I hope you realize the civilians that are dying are not dying from the triggers of US soldiers. The civilians that are dying are from the extremists terrorist groups within Iraq who prospered under Sadams control. They groups are targeting civilians who are standing up to them and wanted Sadam out! I have several very good freinds who are ranking military officers in Iraq who have personally vouched for this, and are on their 2nd, and 3rd tours and have said they would gladly go back. THey have even cited that its sad the liberal media will not show how far the country & its people have come, how many schools are being built, how women are allowed to have more rights, etc.

Also the picture you show is like a liberal media outlet taking it out of perspective. Our leaders also shook the hand of the Iranian leader when he was here, and now we are threatening military action on him - friends eh? Our leaders also shook the hand of N Koreas leader during talks - friends eh?

quote:
Funny, I remember a certain George Bush had an over 90% approval raiting after 9/11. Since clinton was out of office indeed...

Yes, that is correct, his approval rating has gone down drastically. And my approval rating for him has as well. The main reason for me is that he is not acting like a true fiscal conservative. Spend spend spend - i dont agree with that. Also you must look at Congresses approval rating in conjunction with Bush....more people approve of bush over congress.

quote:
I have a better idea... you tell me what's going good about the war. How safer we are, how terrorism is reduced etc...

I have already stated some of the things. And yes terrorism has been reduced - how many terrorist acts have you seen lately in the US? Its called fight them over there instead of fighting them here. Thats what all this is about.

quote:
Who cares about liberals or not liberals.

Many people do. Including me.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 6:14:08 PM , Rating: 2
"I for one, trust the intelligence that is out there. You may not, and that is your perogative."

So you will keep trusting the same people who's claims have been proven to be wrong. Wow, talk about staying the course. (remember these same people once believed the story about yellowcake which was shown to be a fabrication).

"Thats not what happened, and its not like the Iraqi government is paying us to rebuild their city."

Unless of course you believe that we'll get some oil out of this... but if you don't (I don't anyway) you can't deny that contractors are making a profit from this, no it's the iraqis who are paying them, it's american tax payers. But that doesn't matter. If you see nothing wrong with this, then you shouldn't be too upset about the french trying to make money there. By your logic they were only doing what's best for them.

"This is not speculation. We know for sure France was providing weapons to Sadam, as well as other "groups"."

Yes, and so did Germany, but then so did we! Recall that Saddam was fighting a war against Iran during the 80s. Back then it was in the US best interest to arm him because Iran was seen as a big enemy. Just like the CIA armed the taliban at the same time. None of that matters though because it looks like most of the weapons were destroyed shortly after the first gulf war.

"Sadam was not just a religious fanatic"

Correction... Saddam was not even religious. It wasn't in his best interest.

"he was a hitlereque dictator who provided weaponry to terrorist groups to help strike fear into his own people and to keep other countries out of Iraq."

If you really believe that nonsense, then you have a problem... If he's a monster, and we armed that monster then that blood is on our hands too.

"I hope you realize the civilians that are dying are not dying from the triggers of US soldiers."

When did I say this? It doesn't matter who is shooting them, the fact is more people are dying today then died during saddams regime. If your reason for the war is that we are somehow helping these people, all the evidence points to the contrary. We have made their life MORE miserable.

"THey have even cited that its sad the liberal media will not show how far the country & its people have come, how many schools are being built, how women are allowed to have more rights, etc."

I happen to remember that the Soviet Union was saying EXACTLY the same thing in the 80s when they invaded afghanistan. In fact they actually did build schools and women did get more rights (because the soviets were against religion). The locals still hated them though.

"Our leaders also shook the hand of the Iranian leader when he was here"

The context is important... we were militarily supporting saddam at that point in time.
We also played regime change in Iran back in the day, supporting a government that no one liked, which caused the people to elect a radical ayatollah, and led to the hostage crisis... You'd think someone actually studies history these days.

"And yes terrorism has been reduced - how many terrorist acts have you seen lately in the US? Its called fight them over there instead of fighting them here."

Just because nothing has happened doesn't mean that alqueda isn't scheming something. It takes years for a plot to happen. It doesn't mean there aren't sleeper cells right here either.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 6:33:30 PM , Rating: 2
As much fun as a debate is, we really arent getting anywhere, agreed? lol I will just make a final few comments, because I dont want it to get out of hand, and im not targetting you personally.

quote:
So you will keep trusting the same people who's claims have been proven to be wrong. Wow, talk about staying the course

Yes, i will keep trusting the same people, and not just because of the war, but because this political party has MY best interests at hand. The left-wing interests take away from me - universal health care, tax increases, certain special interest groups

quote:
Unless of course you believe that we'll get some oil out of this... but if you don't (I don't anyway) you can't deny that contractors are making a profit from this, no it's the iraqis who are paying them, it's american tax payers. But that doesn't matter. If you see nothing wrong with this, then you shouldn't be too upset about the french trying to make money there. By your logic they were only doing what's best for them.

I dont really know if we'll get oil out of it. I dont think that is the motivation. However, if we really need it, we should just take it. Thats my opinion.

Im not upset about the french making their money there. I would expect that from the them. No one likes the french...but the french themselves.

quote:
Yes, and so did Germany, but then so did we! Recall that Saddam was fighting a war against Iran during the 80s. Back then it was in the US best interest to arm him because Iran was seen as a big enemy. Just like the CIA armed the taliban at the same time. None of that matters though because it looks like most of the weapons were destroyed shortly after the first gulf war.

Yes, but germany is allowed not allowed to have a military, so they no longer count. And the 1980's decision was purely what was best at the time, and neither were our allies. Im sure they knew back in the day that we would have to revisit the situation at later time. Not all the weapons were destroyed though as we keep finding weapons caches, but alot of that is from the french and russia as well.

quote:
Correction... Saddam was not even religious. It wasn't in his best interest.

Good point on that one.

quote:
If you really believe that nonsense, then you have a problem... If he's a monster, and we armed that monster then that blood is on our hands too.

I absolutely believe that. But he wasn't portrayed at the time for the monster he really was. Bad decision by the US? Probably. I dont necessarily see blood on our hands - because if it were up to us, both the Iran and Iraq regimes would be eliminated - we just got one of them to do half our dirty work at the time.

quote:
I happen to remember that the Soviet Union was saying EXACTLY the same thing in the 80s when they invaded afghanistan. In fact they actually did build schools and women did get more rights (because the soviets were against religion). The locals still hated them though.

The locals far from hate us, and if you talk to military people in Iraq they will tell you that. Its the people who benefitted from the Sadam regime and now have nothing that hate us. I call that karma for them.

quote:
We have made their life MORE miserable.

Only for the people who were prosperous in a terrorizing regime.

quote:
Just because nothing has happened doesn't mean that alqueda isn't scheming something. It takes years for a plot to happen. It doesn't mean there aren't sleeper cells right here either.

Exactly - and if we werent there, they would have many more forces to plan out and execute those schemes. Also, I agree, there probably are sleeper cells here and thats scary. But its the left wing looneys who complain about racial profiling and giving illegal immigrants amnesty that is harboring these cells. Also, they complain about the wiretapping actions as if the govt is really listening to you talk to yoru grandma on the phone. The people who say "we need to stop worrying about terrorism and just live out our lives without government interaction" will stop saying that once something else happens. Mark my words. And if Hillary or Barack are in office, it will be a nightmare - as he wants to totally disarm our country's defense.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/25/2007 7:52:20 PM , Rating: 2
"The difference is that Clinton sat on this information and did nothing... while Bush used it as a case to go to war."

Exactly... well sort of. Clinton did do some bombing raids, but certainly did not put our troops in harms way over suspicions.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 8:15:15 PM , Rating: 2
Clinton only did bombing raids after people and political figures in the US wanted his head for not retaliating against terrorist actions on us troops, embassies, etc.

The point is that the information was there and clear before Bush got into office. He took action on it for good cause - and it was not JUST for WMD's, even though the drive by media would like you to believe that. The point was to go to the middle east, fight al-quada, and eliminate all terrorist threats including the countries & regimes to fund & harbor them. Iraq is a country who harbors terrorists, and were allowed there by the Sudam regime. Iran is another who does this, and has also ignored 3 sanctions against their nuclear buildout.

Question: "What is the exit strategy from Iraq?"
Answer: "Turn Right" (into Iran)


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/25/2007 10:49:44 PM , Rating: 2
Ouch. Thats pretty fatalistic.

Honestly. The thought of Iran with Nuclear capability doesn't scare me at all. The thought of us invading Iran, and galvanizing the rest of the Islamic countries and peoples hate against us, creating a whole new generation of terrorists does scare me.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:00:58 PM , Rating: 2
Well the threat with iran is a big one, and its not threatening JUST us, but also europe & israel. And we are not targeting irans people, just the nuclear activity anything they can do to build it.

Your view is you arent scared till something happens, others approach is to be proactive and do something now before they get the chance.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/26/2007 5:46:40 PM , Rating: 2
Ya, but that is like convicting the offender before a crime is committed. We don't even know if a crime will be committed. remember "innocent until proven guilty"? It all sounds very un-american if you ask me. ;)


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/26/2007 7:08:34 PM , Rating: 2
No its not. What it is similar is to backing OJ simpson on his recent offense (after he got off for murder, which we all know), and saying he is innocent.

Iran's military has been under much scrutiny - by both political parties - because its a fact that they are a terrorist military who has been in Iraq killing our troops. If the threat of building nuclear weapons is not enough, then the previous statement should be.


By retrospooty on 10/26/2007 10:59:10 PM , Rating: 2
I dont know for sure if Iran is in Iraq killing our troops. Has that been proven? That is a pretty serious allegation.

I do know our troops should not be in Iraq. Mission accomplished remember? ;)


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Amiga500 on 10/25/2007 12:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
Do you really want me to post up what the UN weapons inspectors said mere weeks prior to the invasion?

Quit pretending to be stupid and realise the truth - Bush et al have fecked up Iraq big time. No reason to go in, no need to go in... and no clean way out after going in.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 12:55:20 PM , Rating: 2
What's funny is that Cheney himself said as much way back when, (then I guess changed his mind when he realized he could make some money off an invation), yet people still believe the WMD crap.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 2:54:07 PM , Rating: 2
Whats funny is that one friend told another of your friends that you own a green house but your other friend comes over a few hours after you finished painting the house and then tells people that you do not own a green house. Which is to be believed?
The circumstances changed in the process of the information being relayed and by the time he got there, your house was a different color. So does that mean that your house was never green???

Sorry for the dumb analogy but it proves the point perfectly. Your other friend can believe you never lived in a green house and can tell people accordingly.


By maven81 on 10/25/2007 3:45:36 PM , Rating: 2
You've got two big holes with that analogy. First it works both ways, meaning I could have changed my mind and repainted the house green later, which means both friends would be right...
Second I would have had to do this under constant survailance, satellite images, overflights, and bombing runs... as the airforce was flying a lot of sorties there in the 90s.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 3:03:33 PM , Rating: 2
UN Weapons inspectors - you mean some of the ones that are from France - who has trade agreements (oil & weapons) with these terrorist countries? Yeah, lets believe them. In case you havent noticed, the UN is a worthless organization who places sancations on countries but offers no consequences for not complying with those sanctions. The UN is also an organization who allows communist dictatorships, and countries like Venezuela to join. So I say again, the UN is completely worthless.


By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 3:10:10 PM , Rating: 2
agreed... get US out of the UN, it is only a self serving organization aimed at treating misbehaving countries like a child and slapping their hand when they do something wrong... even if it is killing countless people and military action is needed... Iraq knew it, NKorea and Iran know it.. luckily they are a lot more hesitant now seeing how fast we zipped through Iraq and Afghanistan to their capitals.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By wordsworm on 10/25/2007 7:10:21 AM , Rating: 1
It's nice to see that the government propaganda doesn't go wasted on you. There's a lot of false information circulated courtesy of the Bush II.

Iran is what most Bible thumping Americans want in America - A God fearing nation. I think the real problem is that the US envies Iran's success as a theocracy, and it is for this reason that the US, indeed Western civilization, has been warring against the Middle East, for so long.

Let us not forget that what was formerly Israel was a state that didn't persecute the Jews. It didn't put them in concentration camps. Yet they were the ones required to pay the penalty for the German/Catholic purge of the WWII. Somehow that injustice seems to be lost on most. Iran has never suggested dropping nukes on Iran. Its position is that were it put to a democratic vote, the Muslims would win power in the region and rename Israel to something less Jewish and more Muslim, hence, erasing the word Israel from the map. Of course, democracy isn't really valued in the west if victory goes to someone we like.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/07, Rating: -1
RE: that's one stall step for China....
By retrospooty on 10/25/2007 9:39:57 AM , Rating: 3
No offense meant mdogs, but it really does seem to me that you are falling victim to the "fear of the unknown" that the Bush administration thrives on. They use that fear adn use propaganda to push thier own agenda. Iran is not a threat, they are a tiny little nation who's own people hate their government, because the govt. does not represent the wants and needs of the people. Not unlike alot of the USA right now.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 9:46:42 AM , Rating: 1
I know, I dont mean offense to people either - but political views bring out the worst in all of us.

I know what you are saying in regards to the Bush administration pushing fear as an agenda, but don't you think its the Democrats agenda to make it sound like there is nothing to worry about - especially since they are an Anti-war party? It goes both ways. I choose to believe the right-wing because id rather be safe against these people than sorry later because we did nothing.

Also, Iran is not that small of a nation - sure not comprable in size to the US, but neither is any country in Europe for that matter. Iran is however larger than Iraq, and is the size of several US states combined.

In all honesty, none of us here know the Iranians, and none of us know what they want in their goverment. I can only go by what their government is doing. When people judge the US, they judge by our Government, not by our citizens. So it goes both way.s


By retrospooty on 10/25/2007 9:56:16 AM , Rating: 2
"I know, I dont mean offense to people either - but political views bring out the worst in all of us."

Totally agreed.

"I know what you are saying in regards to the Bush administration pushing fear as an agenda, but don't you think its the Democrats agenda to make it sound like there is nothing to worry about - especially since they are an Anti-war party? It goes both ways. I choose to believe the right-wing because id rather be safe against these people than sorry later because we did nothing."


I wouldnt call the dems "anti war" , they are just against an unjust or unnecessary war.

"In all honesty, none of us here know the Iranians, and none of us know what they want in their goverment. I can only go by what their government is doing. When people judge the US, they judge by our Government, not by our citizens. So it goes both way.s"

You are right, the world judges us by our governments actions, this is EXACTLY why the middle eastern nations hate us now, and the radical nutbags that live there are willing to die in acts of terrorism to harm us. That region of the world is really a mess, and they are not ready for our kind of "freedom" and we shouldnt be imposing it on them. We need to butt the hell out and let them duke it out with themselves. THAT that that alone is the answer.


By Lord Sear on 10/25/2007 9:56:45 AM , Rating: 2
I'm pleased - because when either the Japanese or Chinese efforts have completed mapping the moon - someone at last can show me a picture of the moon buggy or portion of a lunar lander. Something tangible, something I can believe in!


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 10:56:56 AM , Rating: 2
Iran does harbor & fund terrorist

Guess what... so does Saudi Arabia. So does Pakistan. In fact pakistan even has nuclear weapons.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:00:10 AM , Rating: 2
You're right, they do. But they are not making threats, or are threats right now, to the US. Pakistan is more concerned with India (who also has nukes) than to try and do anything against the US.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:15:38 AM , Rating: 2
North Korea was making threats too, and we didn't invade them did we? In fact I would say they pose a bigger theat then Iran ever did.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:17:41 AM , Rating: 2
We were very close to military action with N. Korea. The difference is N. Korea still held diplomatic talks with us and other countries. They did not threaten the surrounding countries, including US bases, with 11,000 rockets if anyone got in their way.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:24:43 AM , Rating: 2
Sure they did, why do you think there were thousands of US troops stationed on the border in south korea? The reason the situation didn't escalate is because someone was smart enough to realize that diplomacy works.
Regarding the region, Israel has stated that if Iran develops nuclear capability they will take out the facilities. As they did that with Iraq in the early 80s I'd say they are capable of doing so. As Iran has no means of reaching the US with any of their weapons they aren't a threat to the US, only to the US interests in that region, and that's a HUGE difference.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:38:00 AM , Rating: 2
Note that it was not just the few thousand troops in S. Korea that made N. Korea think twice, it was also the Chinese. Diplomacy only works if there is a contingent plan to use military force as a second option. However, depending on who is running this country (as we've seen by B. Clinton in the past), making a threat of military force when the enemy knows you are a bluffing anti-war liberal is not going to make them take the diplomatic route. In the case of Iran, we have, as well as europe and France (of all people!), have tried diplomacy with Iran - in fact this is the third sanction we've put on them - and they still refuse to comply at all. Therefore the threat of military action needs to be real, and is definately real. The fact that Iran does not care if the threat is real, goes to show that they have no plans of diplomatic resolution.

Israel also bombed a nuclear facility in the making in Syria, and thats good. Im all for Israel going in and taking care of business with Iran before we have to use military force.

Iran has no means YET of reaching the US with weapons - unless you consider the terrorists in their country coming here to do those action. But you also know that Iran is buddy buddy with Russia (Putin, a KGB guy - yeah, real trustworthy) and China (just happens to be building them new fighter planes as we speak) who do have the ability to reach the US with their weapons. And who do you think Iran is going to turn to in order to obtain those weapons? Also, US interests are just as important as the US itself. That should not be discounted. We have a 120,000+ troops over there, not to mention troops in other place of that middle east region, that are in harms way of Iran. So yes, they are a threat to the US - the US does not mean just american soil, it also means american people.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Operandi on 10/25/2007 2:28:23 AM , Rating: 2
Ahmadinejad's term is nearly up and is unlikely to be re-elected. Their nuclear weapons program is also no-where near at the stage the current administration would like the world to believe it is.

Iran is only a threat to Neo-con agendas, hence there need to create a perceived threat that dose not exist.


By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:18:43 PM , Rating: 2
'Frank' (my name for him) is irrelevant. Check out the political situation there. It's a well known fact the President is a puppet for Iran's religious leaders. 'Frank' was elected because the much more moderate president before him could get nothing accomplished without being overruled from above and so frustration lead to 'Frank'.

Iran could elect anyone they want -- hell, Nancy Pelosi, they can have her. If the Ayatollah's want nuclear weapons then that's what will happen. If the Revolutionary Guard desires nuclear weapons, that's what will happen.

quote:
Iran is only a threat to Neo-con agendas, hence there need to create a perceived threat that dose not exist.


It's interesting that as far as I can tell only hard-left American liberals detect no such threat from Iran. Everybody knows they're developing weapons, internationally the only dispute is how hard to make the sanctions and, if sanctions fail, what happens next. Probably more quietly a discussion may exist on how badly to condemn Israel for being the one to launch an air attack should all else fail, and America by connection (their planes would almost have to land on US carriers). The UN, IAEA and 'Frank' himself all would disagree with you; hell, he's bragged about it enough times.

I guess Tel Aviv would have to be flattened to convince some, though.


By imperator3733 on 10/24/2007 8:12:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I know it's significant because only us and Russia have done it, but we did it before I was even born.


Russia never landed anyone on the moon. It was only the US.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By hashish2020 on 10/24/2007 10:45:09 PM , Rating: 2
Russia never put a man on the moon


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By logaldinho on 10/25/2007 7:16:11 AM , Rating: 2
but they did launch a probe which is what the article was about. not to mention russia was technically a lot more advanced at the time than we were, funding our space program due to the perceived threat of a round piece of metal that essentially only beeped. imagine if china spends a fraction of their military budget on space exploration and the development of their space program, it would still probably be 3 to 4 times larger than ours. money and forced labor will allow them to make up considerable ground on us. the fact that they are only allowing themselves just over 10 years to complete this feat it pretty amazing.

dont be shocked if you hear other stories about how chinas probes randomly fall out of orbit or malfunction either, you have to love governmental competition and dont for a second think that russia, the usa, or europe are eager to share spacial real estate with china.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 8:45:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
imagine if china spends a fraction of their military budget on space exploration and the development of their space program, it would still probably be 3 to 4 times larger than ours.


I really ind that hard to believe. I think you should research and post the actual figures of what China & the US's space budgets are, then analyze your previous statement. It would also give the readers here some concrete evidence of what you are talking about instead of a drive by statement.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Amiga500 on 10/25/2007 9:07:24 AM , Rating: 2
You can find it as hard to believe as you want, wouldn't change reality one little bit.

If they did divert say, 10% of the military budget to their space program, the Chinese space budget (in equivalent terms - accounting for labour costs etc) would dwarf all of the other space programs in the world.... combined.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 9:22:12 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, I just looked up the numbers and you guys are smoking some heavy hashish....

China's Military Budget in 2007: $85-$125 Billion US (most believe its about $90 Billion)
China's Space Budget in 2007: Up to $1.7 Billion US

US NASA Budget in 2007: $17 Billion

If China spent 10% of its Military budget on their Space program, they would still be between $2.8 Billion & $6.8 Billion short of the US NASA budget.

Sources: http://english.people.com.cn/200610/12/eng20061012...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_th...'s_Republic_of_China


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:07:07 AM , Rating: 2
Aren't you forgetting something? The cost of labor is not the same! This is so painfully obvious that I shouldn't even have to say that. 5 billion in the US and 5 billion in China will not buy you the same amount of equipment. They have an army of laborers that will work for very little!


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:10:35 AM , Rating: 2
Unless you guys can give out hard, concrete data to back up your positions - like I did with my position, then all you're doing is making sweeping statements.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:20:08 AM , Rating: 2
I shouldn't have to explain something that is common sense. If labor in China was not significantly cheaper things like Walmart wouldn't be doing booming business. Or to put it in tech terms, why do you think most computer manufacturers are making their stuff over there? A computer made in the us would be far more expensive. Everyone knows this.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 11:28:20 AM , Rating: 1
LOL - look man, im not arguing the fact that they have cheaper labor over there. Im not arguing the fact that in terms of currency, things cost less to make. What I am arguing is that China's space program would not be 4x the US space program by spending only 10% more of their minute military budget.

All I ask for is actual data to back up your points, and if you are correct, I will acknowledge that. But I'm not going to go out on a limb and say you are right because you say you are.

So go figure out how much the average income is in china, vs. the average income of the Us and do some math. I've already given you the actual figures of their budget in US dollars.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By Amiga500 on 10/25/2007 1:16:36 PM , Rating: 2
From google:

Av. (mean I think) monthy wage in china is just under $200/mth (we'll use 200) and average (median) in the states is $44,334/yr.

Thats a ratio of around 18 and a third.

From various NASA sites:

Anyways - NASA's space budget for 2008 is around $16 billion US.

Around a 3rd of that is on direct wages - and a substantial amount of the rest will be directly influenced by the wages of subcontractors. You could probably figure on 60-70% of the budget going directly or indirectly to labour wages. The rest being material costs, power etc.

So, lets be very conservative say half of NASA's budget is on wages (direct or indirect) - thats 8 billion(ish) - divide that by 18 and you've 0.5 billion. Add on the other 8 billion and 8.5 billion (ish) is the equivalent budget for the Chinese Space program to match NASA.

But that comparison is still apples and oranges due to power, machining, environmental (and many more) costs that are not being shown.

I'll admit my statement earlier about the Chinese budget dwarfing all others was wrong. But even on 1.7 billion, they are probably operating as efficiently as NASA as they aren't bogged down with red tape.


By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 1:23:45 PM , Rating: 2
Very well stated. Now that is the type of "outside the box" thinking that I'm looking for. Just some basic data to back up claims. And I think you are on the right track in trying to figure out what the budget comparisons are for each countries program.


By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:35:55 PM , Rating: 2
Stripping out wages and using a simpler metric, dollars in PPP, which would account best for those things not directly reflected in your analysis which still makes up the lions share of the budget, still tells a pretty lame story for China.

The 2006 PPP ratio for GDP Per cap to GDP PPP Per capita was 3.45.

1.7 billion x 3.45 = almost 6 billion in comparable purchasing power towards NASA.

But speaking on efficiency, you're right. In fact, maybe they're not as efficient.. maybe they're much more efficient? Wouldn't shock me, but I don't know.


By lompocus on 10/25/2007 11:22:28 PM , Rating: 1
are they more advanced now?

We're like 10 technological generations ahead of the rest of the world in every way right now. Take the advance in price:performance ratio for graphic cards and 16 core consumer processors at 5.6 GHz per core, and mutliply that by 4.


RE: that's one stall step for China....
By CyberHawk on 10/25/2007 5:16:28 AM , Rating: 2
And why would they need you? It is true, that America and Russia did this a long time ago, BUT, as I can see China is doing just fine on their own ;)


By maverick85wd on 10/25/2007 11:25:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to a government official, China wants to become part of the international space station project with more than a dozen other participating nations


I never said they did, apparently they did. And not necessarily that they NEED us, just that they would like to participate in the program... you know, to work together. Which is what people do sometimes.


By zornundo on 10/26/2007 9:05:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I couldn't help but chuckle. I know it's significant because only us and Russia have done it, but we did it before I was even born.


Russia did NOT put a man on the moon. Go read history, son.


China is Booming
By cheetah2k on 10/24/2007 10:03:50 PM , Rating: 2
When the US joined the space race, the US was emerging, with a stengthening economy rich in ideas, self belief and dreams.

China is now in the game, feet and all. Their emerging economy is strong. Their space programme is strict but with achievable goals.

This is indeed a sign that balance world power is rapidly tipping in favour of China in this point in time.




RE: China is Booming
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 10:26:17 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
This is indeed a sign that balance world power is rapidly tipping in favour of China in this point in time.


No its not. The US is the #1 superpower in the world, has the largest GDP in the world (in fact china's GDP is only 21% of the US GDP).

The fact in this case is that China is just now trying to do what the US did in 1969.

They have a budding economy due to manufacturing industry, but that far from makes them a budding world power in comparison to the United States.


RE: China is Booming
By Ringold on 10/24/2007 10:54:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The fact in this case is that China is just now trying to do what the US did in 1969.


Besides, I don't know about you, but I for one find private enterprises plans and actual achievements far more exciting than both what China and the US has going. Scientists doing scientist things is nice and all, but it doesn't create permanent long term sustainable human presences.. business does! Business, so long as it's viable, is also not vulnerable to the changes in political fortunes back on Earth, unlike NASA.

Also doubt NASA nor China will be sending civilians up any time soon.. but that would be the whole point of private space travel. The only spot I'd like to see government in space is when its crowded enough that American's need military protection or police services. Bring on the Luna City Holiday Inn's though.

Hmm.. Space Marines.. I can see the Starship Troopers style recruiting posters already.
http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0120201/Ss/0120201/2?pa...


RE: China is Booming
By maven81 on 10/25/2007 11:30:02 AM , Rating: 2
You forget that we actually owe china money! In fact part of the reason this economy is holding up so far is that we are living on borrowed money. If all those nations decided tomorrow that they want their money back, with interest... we would be in deep trouble.


RE: China is Booming
By Ringold on 10/25/2007 2:42:30 PM , Rating: 2
Typical fallacy. These aren't callable mortgages of the days of olde that the fed puts out on the market. Purchasers have NO right to demand their money back; they were purchased on the fee market and have value simply on the basis that a coupon will be paid when the bond says it will be paid and in the amount that it says.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, they are callable for the Treasury, but that's working in the reverse of what you stated.

This whole thing is either a big misunderstanding of how bonds work, or disinformation/lies spread by anti-globalization fanatics, or a mixture of both.

The Chinese could sell these bonds, all at once, on the open market, and interest rates could go nuts, but that'd be as devastating for them as it would be for us -- and for all countries with Dollar-pegged currencies.


RE: China is Booming
By Ringold on 10/24/2007 10:34:27 PM , Rating: 2
They won’t approach our sheer size in GDP until roughly 2040 at the current rates of growth. If we follow China and former Eastern Europe's lead in adopting Reaganomics (funny that the communists adopt capitalism while we abandon it), we could very easily increase our long term rate of growth significantly be removing disincentives in the US economy and making it a haven for international business. Investing in education (which doesn't necessarily mean money, but fixing methodology) would go a long way towards helping making it a sustainable increase.

Such an improvement could forestall China's eclipsing of the United States easily by decades. An increase in the birth rate of American's would also be a huge boon.

How likely is it that we get the FairTax and a century of pro-growth Mitt Romney-like Presidents? I feel a cold Bolshevik wind coming out of New York these days; not too likely. However, the game has just begun. On the flip side, it's also a fairly big assumption that China can sustain this rate of growth, not get in to any wars, not screw up economic policy or not fall victim to the vicissitudes of the free market. Rumors of America's demise have been greatly exaggerated -- and sensationalized.

Oh, and that's not to even mention, 2040 to match us in GDP. God only knows when they'll catch up in GDP-PPP per capita. Once they start getting anywhere close to our level unless we've had decades of left-wing rule while they're still proponents of free markets their growth rate would surely have to slow to something closer to our own. Something tells me, assuming no surprises, our great grand children will have gray hair before Chinese live equivalent life styles of Americans.


RE: China is Booming
By hashish2020 on 10/24/2007 10:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
...if you think ROMNEY is going to be the president introducing a FairTax....or is anything but Hillary Clinton with a wierd religion that forces you to wear bizarre underwear and a regressive social policy, then you are massively mistaken.

Hillary Clinton and Romney are both economically severe state capitalists, NOT free marketers/real capitalists or socialists


RE: China is Booming
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 10:56:22 PM , Rating: 2
Clinton is a socialist - univeral healthcare, nanny government, wealth redistribution.

As for Romney, I dont think he will get the republican vote presidential candidate, but I do like his FairTax proposal. Its the closest thing to tax equality as we can get to batthle the left-wings notorious "robin hood" tactics.


RE: China is Booming
By Ringold on 10/24/2007 11:10:38 PM , Rating: 2
Romney's a business man and has stated that if Congress put the bill on his desk he'd sign it.

Huckabee rests his entire campaign on the FairTax but I can't see many Democrats voting for a guy that's both a minister and tries to avoid evolution talk. Hell.. not sure I could even vote for that.

I can understand your view of Clinton, but.. not sure where you get that about Romney at all. The Club for Growth seems to have warm feelings with him and his rhetoric is almost perfect -- especially for a guy from Mass.


RE: China is Booming
By Ringold on 10/24/2007 11:34:46 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2007/10/mitt_romneys_...

Just listened to the first 20 minutes of his speech to the Club for Growth; sounded like many economic course lectures I've sat through, except with contrasts to central planning, Keynesian methods or whatnot he simply names Hillary. He even looks like a CEO (too much hair to be a real economist). I know he's had to tack to the right now that he's out of Mass., but his economic positions sound air tight.


Hmmmm...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 10/24/2007 5:16:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
and has plans to possibly build its own aircraft carrier in space.

Say what?




RE: Hmmmm...
By rtrski on 10/24/2007 5:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, that kind of made my brain go <ping!>, too.

References, anyone?


RE: Hmmmm...
By Falloutboy on 10/24/2007 5:26:47 PM , Rating: 2
the closest thing I read is that china plans to make a space station (not really a spacestaion more a hub with a bunch of there spaceship modules attached)


RE: Hmmmm...
By mdogs444 on 10/24/07, Rating: -1
RE: Hmmmm...
By cheetah2k on 10/25/2007 4:39:08 AM , Rating: 2
Nike Lunar Edition Space "Air-less" Jordans?


RE: Hmmmm...
By hashish2020 on 10/24/2007 10:48:14 PM , Rating: 2
Aircraft carrier....

In space

It's ok, the US will make the first space aircraft SUPERCARRIER CONVOY:)


RE: Hmmmm...
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 10:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
...we put that in space, and it will force Gore to make another false theoretical movie on how we are responsible for Moon Warming.


RE: Hmmmm...
By winterspan on 10/25/2007 1:29:52 AM , Rating: 1
With that Gore comment, If you are implying anthropogenic global warming doesn't exist, you are a fucking moron.
How many national scientific academies and organizations have to offer their consensus opinion on this issue before partisan energy industry apologists quit attempting to mislead the public and delay action on the issue. You are way off base here... Please take the time to do some research before you go spouting off a bunch of bullshit.


RE: Hmmmm...
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 7:00:18 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, I did not claim that global warming does not exist. So are you mad because you are an environmental extremist, a Gore fanatic, or did you not understand the humor of my post?

I claimed that Gore's message of saying that global warming is a man made problem is false. His video has been cited time and time again for false statements, inaccuracies, and being political propaganda - and democrats have been beating this issue to death with a stick. Need proof of that part? How about Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer first citing that the white house editted global warming research documents, then she goes out on a limb to the national media to claim that our man made global warming problem is what started the California Wildfires. She opened her mouth way too early, and now sounds like an idiot because the fires were started by arson. Talk about foot in mouth.

Notice what your exact words are: "How many national scientific academies and organizations have to offer their consensus OPINION ". There are just as many of those with the OPINION that those opinions are wrong. So, if you want to make the argument that we may have the technology to help fight global warming, that is one thing. But saying that man is responsible for global warming, which is inaccurate and not proven, is not the way to gain backers to your cause.


RE: Hmmmm...
By Rhaido on 10/25/2007 10:18:42 AM , Rating: 2
Contrary to the great Al Gore, the debate is not over. People who have closed their minds to debating global warming are analogous to religious fanatics who lash out when their beliefs are challenged.

Food for thought for those open-minded:
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerr...


RE: Hmmmm...
By mdogs444 on 10/25/2007 10:26:27 AM , Rating: 2
Thats a great site, thanks for posting that.

I especially loved the article on the left-wing looney Barbara Boxer. She is so over the top, its ridiculous.


I don't know about you...
By ryedizzel on 10/26/2007 8:12:27 PM , Rating: 2
...but I wouldn't get into a spaceship with a sticker that says "Made in China" on it.




RE: I don't know about you...
By mdogs444 on 10/26/2007 8:42:57 PM , Rating: 2
And you never know....that sticker may be adhered onto several layers of lead based paint.


a trajedy!
By NullSubroutine on 10/24/2007 11:14:32 PM , Rating: 2
so now the chinese can see our secret nuclear missile silos on the back side of the moon! conspiracy theorists unite!




Forget the moon
By Sylar on 10/25/2007 10:00:21 AM , Rating: 2
If China really wants to one up the US, they should just forgo the moon altogether and just start planning on putting the first man on Mars.




Propaganda and conspiracies...
By Screwballl on 10/25/2007 2:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
...they are just starting. All kinds of morons are out there with the dumbest ideas and I suspect they will use this as part of their strategy to say we were never on the moon. They will take a picture of a spot 20 feet to the right of the real landing where the US flag is/was supposed to be and say "lookie, no flag"... I am wondering if the Chinese will actually partake in this conspiracy to claim they were the first to put a man on the moon...
or take some image they found of rocks saying that those are alien foot prints....

I really do hope that NASA can work with the Chinese space program to make some real progress in space. Hopefully the moon launch planned for 2020 can have all 3 countries represented instead of just the Chinese.




By marsbound2024 on 10/30/2007 3:27:48 PM , Rating: 2
...Chinese media has said today that Chang'e 1 successfully launched an impactor initially thought to be used only to determine if the Moon had water at the poles. However, soon after the its release, it was quickly realized that it was meant as an eerie reminder of China's ability to blow satellites out of the vacuum as JAXA's Kaguya was vaporized soon after.

A CNSA representative also hinted today that another impactor was possible, creating concerns in India, a nation ready to launch its own lunar orbiter in spring of 2008, by saying, "India must die; but first get out of Tibet!" However, not everyone is under the agreement that China has the intentions of destroying Chandraayan-1. This uncertainty comes in spite of another comment made today by the same representative: "We are not afraid of going kamikaze on your ass in space. Japan knows this... [boisterous laughter]."

NASA Administrator Mike Griffin was unavailable for comment, but an engineer for the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter mission did reveal that he was surprised to see an extra fifty million allocated to budget for the develop of some new kind of "impactor torpedoes" with a notation that they were "certainly, definitely going to be used for uhhh... science and stuff."




So what?
By ButterFlyEffect78 on 10/24/07, Rating: -1
RE: So what?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 10/24/2007 5:09:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Whats so special about space anyway?

You mean other than the fact that space is mankind's immortal destiny right? :)


RE: So what?
By Axbattler on 10/24/2007 5:43:41 PM , Rating: 1
Mankind is always exploring. Space seems a natural evolution of that. Still, I'd say that due to the costs involved with space exploration, it's mainly a political statement.


RE: So what?
By ziggo on 10/24/2007 7:15:26 PM , Rating: 2
And this is somehow different from the exploration of the world by european powers in the 15-16th century? Different era, same principle.


RE: So what?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 10/24/2007 7:32:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And this is somehow different from the exploration of the world by european powers in the 15-16th century? Different era, same principle.

Except there's no natives on Mars.


RE: So what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/24/2007 8:17:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Except there's no intelligent natives on Mars.

There, fixed that for you. Always the possibility of organism's that are non-intelligent.


RE: So what?
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 9:03:10 PM , Rating: 4
I think you should change that to say "Except there's ONLY intelligent natives on Mars"...

after all "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"


RE: So what?
By Ringold on 10/24/2007 10:38:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Except there's no natives on Mars.


That's good; saves us from the genocide stage of colonization. We can get right down to strip mining and luxury resorts!


RE: So what?
By ziggo on 10/25/2007 2:22:49 AM , Rating: 2
That simply removes the whole give them small pox stage and goes straight to exploitation.

Besides, the moonites can't even blow up Boston. I for one, do not fear them.


RE: So what?
By Amiga500 on 10/25/2007 9:12:21 AM , Rating: 2
Assuming that to be true... there are sill one or two planets, stars and galaxies on the far side of mars that might contain something :-)


RE: So what?
By Polynikes on 10/24/2007 9:17:28 PM , Rating: 2
We'd be better served by exploring the deepest depths of the ocean more, if you ask me.


At least they aren't sending Moonies...
By Imagicka on 10/24/07, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 10/24/2007 10:20:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, first of all did the US really go to the moon? Really?


I seriously hope you dont believe that conspiracy hoax crap.

quote:
do you really think that the US is going to be civil to China for stealling it's thunder?


The US in the near future is not going to be civil with China, but its not because of them being the second country on the moon - if they even make it that far.

quote:
Of course the US keeps it's mouth shut because China is happy to make all the merchandise to keep the Walmarts full...


I dont know about that. China is one of the fastest-growing US export markets. Annual US exports to China have quadrupled since 1990, reaching $19.2 billion in 2001. In fact, we import more than $100 billion worth of Chinese goods, and if we cut off trade imports with them, they would suffer quite a bit as well as we would.

quote:
Plus, didn't the US state that it had sole domain over outer space?


I dont think the US claimed it has sole domain. I think they are claiming that they will regulate all space activity for all countries, denying countries access to space. If you think about it, I agree with the US over these regulations. Imagine the power to have GPS guided rockets on satellites with the ability to shoot them anywhere on the globe you wanted. Very dangerous.


"It's okay. The scenarios aren't that clear. But it's good looking. [Steve Jobs] does good design, and [the iPad] is absolutely a good example of that." -- Bill Gates on the Apple iPad

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