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China's BYD Co. is set to release an electric vehicle dubbed the E6, which will compete with the Nissan LEAF EV and Chevy Volt.  (Source: Bloomberg News)

A pending proposal from the Chinese government could force U.S., Japanese, and other foreign automakers to share their electric vehicle secrets with China's government owned companies.  (Source: Am I The Expert Yet)
If foreign automakers want to produce EVs in China, they would have to share their technology

Amid reports that a Chinese automaker SAIC is considering buying a major stake in GM, China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology is considering a controversial plan that would force U.S. companies that want to make electric vehicles (EVs) in China to hand over their EV technology to Chinese companies.

Under the 10-year plan, China would become "the world's leader" in electrified vehicles -- hybrids, battery electric vehicles, and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles.  As part of that plan, U.S. automakers who want to manufacture electrified designs in China would have to enter a joint venture with a Chinese automaker, in which they become the minority partner.

The move would essentially force American companies to share their most guarded EV secrets with China's automakers.  China has long copied and reverse-engineered auto technology from the world's auto manufacturers, but it has seldom been able to force American automakers to directly give it such technology, perhaps until now.

The proposal would also apply to other automakers from other nations with strong automotive legacies -- such as Germany, South Korea, and Japan.  It is unclear as to whether the policy would apply only to automakers who assemble electrified vehicles in China, or whether it would also force automakers who have parts supplied from China (such as GM) to share their secrets as well. 

International automakers are quite unhappy about the development.  A senior executive at one non-Chinese automaker is quoted in 
The Wall Street Journal as saying, "[This plan is] tantamount to China strong-arming foreign auto makers to give up battery, electric-motor, and control technology in exchange for market access.  We don't like it."

As China approaches becoming the world's richest nation, its foreign economic policy, particularly under the auto sector, is coming under fire.  China is accused of masterminding schemes to commandeer foreign intellectual property and give its products an unfair advantage over its foreign competitors.

One such technique is China's decision to keep its currency artificially low.  That decision helps China to produce goods cheaper than its foreign competitors and helped China experience less of a severe recession than America and Europe did.  U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, speaking before a Congressional panel Thursday, scolded China for its currency schemes, but advised Congress not to resort to punitive action, saying such actions would be counterproductive.

The U.S. did file two trade discrimination cases with the World Trade Organization, claiming that China was discriminating against U.S. steel makers and credit-card companies.

Many U.S. companies recently have bemoaned the headache of dealing with the Asian superpower.  Google temporarily pulled the plug on its Chinese version of its search engine, redirecting traffic to an uncensored Hong Kong page.  And General Motors has recently griped about the fact that China refuses to give EV subsidies to foreign automakers, while the U.S. will happily do so.

China is aiming to have five million BEVs and PHEVs on the roads by 2020.  The nation also hopes by 2020 to be producing three million gas-electric hybrids a year.  Forcing foreign automakers to unwillingly share their expertise could give the nation a great head-start in reaching those ambitious goals.

The nation already has one dominant advantage in the EV sector over its Japanese and American counterparts -- its dominate position in the rare earth metals market.  Electrified vehicles use approximately twice the rare earth metals as non-electrified ones and China controls around 95 percent of the world's rare earth metal production.



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Easy to become a leader
By fic2 on 9/20/2010 1:19:23 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Under the 10-year plan, China would become "the world's leader" in electrified vehicles


It is easy to become a "leader" when you let other people do the work and then steal it.

I certainly don't blame China for not subsidizing foreign manufacturers EVs. I wish my U.S. tax money wasn't being used to subsidize any EVs - domestic or foreign.




RE: Easy to become a leader
By FITCamaro on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/20/2010 2:49:23 PM , Rating: 1
"Not to mention the high labor prices unions have extorted out of American companies." FITCamaro

If only the rest of the US had the low wages and "high living standards" of your South Carolina we would be better off? No thanks.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/20/2010 3:07:37 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
If only the rest of the US had the low wages and "high living standards" of your South Carolina we would be better off? No thanks.


Have you ever taken the time to research why foreign car companies who have come over to the States have settled almost exclusively in southern and southern midwest states (MS, AL, GA, SC, TN, KY, IN)? BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, etc. None of them would go anywhere near a union organized city, just about all of which are in the northern midwest and northeast states (OH, MI, PA, NJ, NY, etc.).


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/20/2010 3:16:57 PM , Rating: 2
The only reason these aren't in Mexico or still in Japan is because Reagan threatened them in the 80s. Why do you think Reagan felt the need to pressure foriegn auto makers? Could it have something to do with the loss of manufactuing jobs? Certainly not manufacturing jobs from South Carolina. The pressure came from "union states" and union employed Americans.

Without government and union pressure SC would still be competing on wages alone and loose to Mexico everytime.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/20/2010 3:37:30 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
The only reason these aren't in Mexico or still in Japan is because Reagan threatened them in the 80s...The pressure came from "union states" and union employed


And unions (UAW and Machinists) are still PO'd that the workers in my previously mentioned plants aren't unionized. The fact that unions have all but buried Detroit and Flint says it all. Finally, I certainly wouldn't expect BMW's South Carolina plant to pay low wages any more than Mercedes' Alabama plant. They do have a quality and image standard.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By borismkv on 9/20/2010 4:47:50 PM , Rating: 5
And you might be right, except for the fact that the majority of those factories were built in the late 90s and early 2000s. The lack of union intervention is a major boon to foreign manufacturers. It's cheaper for them to have their cars built in China, India, Mexico, etc. and pay importation fees than it is to pay the out of proportion salaries(for the skill level of workers) that unionized auto workers demand. Let's not forget that the sole purpose of any business is to *make money*. Not to make their employees happy. Now, it's a sad fact that most executives don't realize that making employees happy is an easy way to improve customer satisfaction, but that's a completely different discussion.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/20/2010 6:51:45 PM , Rating: 4
Hate to break the news to ya, bub, but in an international economy, unions are the anchor around America's neck. $50-$80/hr in wages and benefits is WAY TOO MUCH to be paying someone on an assembly line screwing in a seat or bolting on tires. And I won't even get into union demands to be paid even when the plant goes idle. Sorry, that's reality, not "the bottom."

And as I stated, you can see how weeds and grass are growing around empty manufacturing facilities in Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. All because the unions demanded to be, as you say, "at the top."

Better to be on the inside looking out than on the outside looking in. Right now, a lot of people up North are looking South - and moving there. Them's the facts., whether you agree with them or not.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By sinful on 9/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/21/2010 12:12:28 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
What, do you think if the Unions at GM said "Oh, we're breaking up", you think jobs would come to the US? LOL. GM would say "THANKS! We're shutting this factory down now and moving all your jobs to Mexico!"


Nah. GM just closes a plant when they don't make money and the cars/trucks don't sell, that's all.

quote:
At the end of the day, more jobs would flow out of the US than would ever flow back in because of the non-unionization.


Meanwhile back in the real world, overall union membership has declined in the private sector over the past 50 years. In the government sector however (you know those government-created jobs) union membership levels have gone up.

Finally, I'll drive the point home again: go check out the wasteland known as Detroit that was once a global leader in automobile manufacturing. There is plenty of blame to go around on the demise of the US auto industry including management, but to say that unions are not to blame and actually the answer to problems is delusional at best.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 12:50:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nah. GM just closes a plant when they don't make money and the cars/trucks don't sell, that's all.

Not neccessarily. Harley is leaving Milwaukee for cheaper labor even during record profits. They've discovered that the secret; they don't need growth, they only need ever increasing profits.

I'm sure these same people won't be happy until we have Foxconn-like working conditions here in the US.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
Who ISN'T leaving Milwaukee man?? Get a clue.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 7:30:33 PM , Rating: 2
Way to stay on the point.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By robert5c on 9/21/2010 1:06:55 AM , Rating: 2
Your IT example is off,

IT jobs are outsourced because it doesn't cost as much to import the product back into the US.

With cars its different. you have higher shipping costs per unit/vehicle, and also a larger price tag which means more import tax per unit. thus it can sometime pencil out to be worth building a factory and making the cars here in the US. Why else would foreign companies do that, don't listen to the Ads, they don't actually care to give Bob a job.

with computers its different. First off take an individual component or product. You have the fact that you are trying to manufacture, box and ship a 1-lb item that you're pricing for $100 bucks. good luck trying to squeeze a profit after paying someone to do all that here in the states.

Secondly, a lot of the jobs that are being outsourced are development or service jobs. which themselves have none of the shipping and tax costs back to the US. leaving the tech company to need only compare wage/hour. Easy choice, and sometimes necessary, even if its at the cost of some quality.

Cry all day about outsourced jobs, without the cheap labor, everyone would have far less then they take for granted today.

you can have more jobs for everyone, yet be able to buy less of everything for it. whats the point of making more money if everything costs more as a result?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:24:23 PM , Rating: 1
It's not just cheaper labor. Intel CEO Paul Otellini came out and finally spoke out against the economic path the U.S is going and Obama's goals. Why wasn't that a Daily Tech article by the way? The CEO of Intel doesn't rate high enough I guess...hmmmm.

But I digress, he said flat out it would cost him a billion dollars more to build a chip manufacturing plant in the United States. A billion!!!

Otellini: "I can tell you definitively that it costs $1 billion more per factory for me to build, equip, and operate a semiconductor manufacturing facility in the United States."

It's more than labor. Our corporate tax rate is alarming. And with the Bush tax cuts looking to expire, the corporate gains tax will go up 25% !!! Health Care reform will also place a huge burden on Employers. There's so much red tape in our government permits to build and research can take up to a decade to be approved. It's just gotten ridiculous. It's too expensive and too tedious to do business in our own country anymore!

Otellini: “I think this group does not understand what it takes to create jobs. And I think they’re flummoxed by their experiment in Keynesian economics not working.”

Silicon Valley, which boomed under Reagan's supply-side economics, has slowly been suffocated by Big Government. It's not the labor costs that are causing this.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By freezervv on 9/21/2010 2:28:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Silicon Valley, which boomed under Reagan's supply-side economics


Citation needed. I don't really see how the 80s were the heyday of Silicon Valley...


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By gixser on 9/21/2010 6:00:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Obvious Paul Otellini knows more about it than we do.


LOL. Appeal to Authority much? Ok when its a CEO but not so much when its an authority on the climate or environment?

I'm taking your advice and "following the money" when evaluating the insights provided by others.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 6:44:36 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry but business isn't theory. And once could argue weather or not a "climate expert" even exists given just how much we don't know about what makes the climate work.

When Paul Otellini says it will cost a billion more to build a factory, unless you're calling him a flat out liar, one should assume he knows more about the costs of building a factory than you do. He didn't pick the number out of thin air, he knows it because they ALREADY crunched the numbers and arrived at that figure.

There is a difference between "appeal to authority" and bowing to someone with more experience and wisdom than you when it's reasonably sensible to.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By gixser on 9/21/2010 7:35:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sorry but business isn't theory.


Man, the fun just keeps coming. I suggest you try and register for a class called "Business Fact" at HBS, or any other business school for that matter.

"Business" is full of "theory". Around each and every corner is a theory with a competing theory. Take a peek at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_business_theo...

Maybe Mr. Otellini has an agenda? No, of course not! His obligations to his shareholders would never sway his position or viewpoint? Mr. Otellini ONLY deals in facts, right?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 1:22:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Citation needed.

Fat chance. And how dare you question his god?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By PaterPelligrino on 9/21/2010 3:41:41 AM , Rating: 5
No one should let China get away with this bulls**t. Notice that Japan tried the same thing when they were in a similar stage of economic development.

Our reluctance to take strong measures against China is one result of America's indebtedness to China and the rest of the world. When the other guy owns your mortgage, your options are limited.

However, China's manufacturing advantage derives primarily from the 50-75 cents an hour it pays it's workers. If their currency appreciated 100% it would still be far more economical to manufacture in China. And look at what happened with Japan: in the early 80's the Japanese came under tremendous pressure to let the Yen rise to offset their huge trade surpluses. So the Yen went from 275 down to about 120 to the dollar. The result was even greater trade surpluses. The Japanese economy did eventually tank, but that had nothing to do with the value of the Yen. The Japanese are still running large trades surpluses in spite of the Yen now being at an historical high.

That our problems are not entirely due to China's refusal to let the Yuan rise is also shown by Germany. Until a year or so ago, Germany with a pop. of only 81 million, was the world's largest exporter, even tho the Euro is highly overvalued. Germany, even with its high union representation, is now in 2nd position to China's no 1.

The problem is that American Capitalism - as opposed to Asian or European Capitalism - places little value on the economic well-being of the worker, and very high value on return on capital. So it shops out manufacturing to whoever pays the workers less. That's fine if you own stock in the company, but it also means we've decimated our manufacturing base. The economic consequences of this (lack of far-sighted) industrial policy will only get worse - in fact, it's only just begun. A country can't buy everything it uses from some guy in Shenzhen without their being consequences. Now that the American consumer debt-binge is over, it's becoming obvious that those tens of millions of lost good-paying jobs mean even the advantage of cheap imports can't make up for the lost income.

The importance placed on return on capital, to the detriment of all other concerns, is why income equality is worsening in the US. "An increasing share of national income has gone to the top 1 percent of earners since the 1970s, when their share was 8 percent to 9 percent. In 2005, it passed 21 percent. By 2007, the last year for which complete data are available, the richest 1 percent were taking more than 23 percent of all income. The richest one-tenth of 1 percent, representing just 13,000 households, took in more than 11 percent of total income in 2007."

That's great for them, but when the income of the bottom 80% of the population stagnates - or declines as it has in America - so does the economic well-being of the country itself.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By PaterPelligrino on 9/21/2010 4:27:53 AM , Rating: 2
I'd like to correct one thing in that post - wtf can't we edit our posts? I said:

quote:
The problem is that American Capitalism - as opposed to Asian or European Capitalism - places little value on the economic well-being of the worker.


Obviously, the Chinese economy places little importance on the economic well-being of the worker; but that's primarily because the Chinese gov't, at this stage in it's economic development, is more interested in creating wealth and developing its industrial base; i.e., the worker is being sacrificed for what the Chinese dictators see as the greater good. The Japanese worker's position has also deteriorated in the face of cheap Chinese manufacturing. So strike the word "Asian" from that sentence.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 12:44:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The problem is that American Capitalism - as opposed to Asian or European Capitalism - places little value on the economic well-being of the worker, and very high value on return on capital.

You've clearly overestimated the problem.

Where do you see any concern on the economic well being of the worker from a corporate point of view?

quote:
The importance placed on return on capital, to the detriment of all other concerns, is why income equality is worsening in the US. "An increasing share of national income has gone to the top 1 percent of earners since the 1970s, when their share was 8 percent to 9 percent. In 2005, it passed 21 percent. By 2007, the last year for which complete data are available, the richest 1 percent were taking more than 23 percent of all income. The richest one-tenth of 1 percent, representing just 13,000 households, took in more than 11 percent of total income in 2007."

There's an old forgotten and unused saying: "There but for the grace of God goes I." (or waas it me?) It was understood that when your neighbors lost their jobs it could have just as easily been yourself.

This has been replaced by the ever vocal right wingers with "Screw you I got mine!"


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 12:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The problem is that American Capitalism - as opposed to Asian or European Capitalism - places little value on the economic well-being of the worker, and very high value on return on capital.


Given the recent rash of articles on Daily Tech telling of the multiple suicides and suicide attempts by Chinese workers lately, I find this statement ironic. Obviously not ALL "Asians" place much value on the workers.

But then again Pater, you never did miss an opportunity to work your anti-American bias into an argument. The truth doesn't matter, the message does.

When you see stories about things being so bad in American "capitalism" that people kill themselves in the workplace in droves, you let me know.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:01:31 PM , Rating: 2
Oh also by your reasoning Japan wouldn't count either. They don't have worker unions, and often are made to work hours that would make an American worker protest or quit, for crap pay.

So we've eliminated China and Japan from your statement quite soundly, so what "Asians" are you referring to?

As usual you're just pulling things out of your ass to further your anti-American agenda.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By PaterPelligrino on 9/21/2010 1:50:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given the recent rash of articles on Daily Tech telling of the multiple suicides and suicide attempts by Chinese workers lately, I find this statement ironic. Obviously not ALL "Asians" place much value on the workers.

So we've eliminated China and Japan from your statement quite soundly, so what "Asians" are you referring to?

You're so anxious to score points that you're not reading the posts.

8 hours before you wrote the above, I corrected those mistakes myself in the subsequent post where I wrote:

quote:
I'd like to correct one thing in that post

Obviously, the Chinese economy places little importance on the economic well-being of its workers........ The Japanese worker's position has also deteriorated in the face of cheap Chinese manufacturing. So strike the word "Asian" from that sentence.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By PaterPelligrino on 9/21/2010 2:28:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Mistake my ass.


Strange reasoning. If I didn't see it as a mistake, why did I correct it without any feedback from you or anyone else?

Get a grip on yourself man; you've got such a hard-on for revenge that it's making you talk nonsense. Do you really think anyone else is interested in this small-minded grudge of yours?

Anyway, you'll get your chance to put me in my place. All things come to he who waits.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 6:53:38 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Get a grip on yourself man

Oh he has that, why do you think he keeps ejaculating on the flag? If anything the grip is too tight.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 10:33:49 PM , Rating: 2
Real mature as usual Yash. Wow.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/21/2010 11:22:02 AM , Rating: 2
How much is wages and how much benefits?

Where can I go and make $80 an hour????

If the benefits part of the package is the reason then let me ask you this...

We are talking about health care and retirement so if a company short changes their employees for health care and retirement... who picks up the slack?

If other countries pay for health care via other means (IE the companies do not have to worry about it) then all these companies are doing is moving their responsibility to others.

Look at Walmart... cheap prices but we are all paying for these prices (even if we do not see it) because the employees are soaking thegovernement for health care and other benefits that Walmat does not give out.

Look at HP... they layed off all those people not because they were not making a profit (they were) but rather they could make more money by offshoring.

Who is left to protect the workers when the Unions are gone and the governement has been bought off by big business?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Digimonkey on 9/21/2010 12:44:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Look at Walmart... cheap prices but we are all paying for these prices (even if we do not see it) because the employees are soaking thegovernement for health care and other benefits that Walmat does not give out.


Walmart pays fairly and it does offer benefits. If you heard definitely it's because people like to regurgitate BS without looking at facts so they can come to opinions easier.



RE: Easy to become a leader
By Digimonkey on 9/21/2010 12:44:28 PM , Rating: 2
definitely = differently


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 12:56:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Walmart pays fairly

Let me guess, not a Malwart employee?

I don't know any Walmart employee's satisfaction with salary, there are all too busy complaining about how they are treated.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Digimonkey on 9/21/2010 1:03:36 PM , Rating: 2
I worked for Walmart as a teenager and my cousin currently works there now. I quit Krogers to go over to Walmart because it was a $1.50 raise. Quite a lot back then for a teenager.

My cousin works at one of their warehouses and currently makes more than I do, and I'm a systems admin. I do have a better insurance plan however. :P


RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/21/2010 3:09:44 PM , Rating: 2
There is a BIG difference between a starter job and a normal "raise a family" job.

Big Box stores have always paid minimum wage to those teenagers just starting in the job market. How many Walmart Employees are older adults with families?

If Walmart does not provide "affordable" health care to their employees then who pays for it? Sure they offer a plan but at the wages they pay few can afford it.

Walmart "IS" profitable and "COULD" provide better benefits/wages to their employees but they sell out their employees in order to pay more out to the stockholders.

It is possible to provide a fair wage/benefits to your employees "AND" provide a fair return to investors but like anything else, greed sets in and they figure if they screw their employees (and Walmart is not the only one doing this of course) they can pay larger dividends to their stock holders.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 4:59:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Walmart "IS" profitable and "COULD" provide better benefits/wages to their employees


Sure and that COULD raise prices on their goods. And that COULD lead to less profits. And that COULD lead to employee layoffs making things worse than before.

Just stop with the stupid "greed" arguments.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Digimonkey on 9/21/2010 5:02:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is a BIG difference between a starter job and a normal "raise a family" job. Big Box stores have always paid minimum wage to those teenagers just starting in the job market. How many Walmart Employees are older adults with families? If Walmart does not provide "affordable" health care to their employees then who pays for it? Sure they offer a plan but at the wages they pay few can afford it.

Walmart "IS" profitable and "COULD" provide better benefits/wages to their employees but they sell out their employees in order to pay more out to the stockholders. It is possible to provide a fair wage/benefits to your employees "AND" provide a fair return to investors but like anything else, greed sets in and they figure if they screw their employees (and Walmart is not the only one doing this of course) they can pay larger dividends to their stock holders.


Nevermind that someone started a family without a good job, or that they're still starting at the bottom for whatever reason. Sure they could pay more, but what you speak of is pretty much charity since they are competitive with other companies when comparing positions.

If the employee is a good worker and capable they can move up in rank at Walmart and get one of the higher paying positions. Being a former employee of Walmart I can say most slack off until they get fired, or refuse other positons because they don't want the responsibility.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/22/2010 10:50:33 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps they started a family when they had a good job and thanks to all the "profit at all costs" metality they lost that job only to find the Walmarts left.

"Screw you I got mine"

I agree with this 100% - this is what too many people feel today.... that is until they find themselves out of work.

Remember this... in good times people do not want the government in their lives and everyone needing help are stupid lazy bums living off everyone else.

In bad times those same people are the first to say... "where is the goverment to help ME"

Hypocracy


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:06:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know any Walmart employee's satisfaction with salary, there are all too busy complaining about how they are treated.


More ignorance from Yash. Forget the stupidity of your premise that someone stocking shelves or working the checkout is a high skilled worker that should be highly paid. We'll table that for now.

But how do you explain how every time Wal-Mart has job openings, they are flooded with thousands of applicants? I guess they all didn't get the memo about how terrible Wal-Mart is?

Don't feel sorry for Wal-Mart employees, they fought tooth and nail for that job among hundreds or thousands of other applicants!

And if they complain so much, as you say Yash, why don't they just quit? Obviously they are so highly skilled and qualified that they could just go to somewhere better, right?

Come back when your arguments actually make sense.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:25:07 PM , Rating: 1
There's no ignorance in what I said. Everyone I know feels WM treats them like shit.

And I don't work there Einstein.

quote:
But how do you explain how every time Wal-Mart has job openings, they are flooded with thousands of applicants?

Desperation.

quote:
Don't feel sorry for Wal-Mart employees, they fought tooth and nail for that job among hundreds or thousands of other applicants!

I'm glad somebody at WM has teeth. Wait you said tooth, just 1?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:54:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Where can I go and make $80 an hour????

I'll go out on a limb and answer not SC.

Unless you're a CEO then you can make $80K an hour, far more $$$ than more important jobs like being president, and get the blessing of those that know how things work around here.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/21/2010 11:15:58 AM , Rating: 2
And they base their wages and benefits on the unionized companies!

They pay "just enough" and give "just enough" benefits to keep the unions out.

Want to bet right now what they would do if their were no unions to compete with?

Be honest!


RE: Easy to become a leader
By NLite on 9/23/2010 6:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
maybe they'd learn-you how to use the correct form of THERE-THEIR-THEY'RE

Yes, I'm from the south and I'll learn-you a lot of things


RE: Easy to become a leader
By amagriva on 9/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: Easy to become a leader
By FITCamaro on 9/20/2010 7:59:27 PM , Rating: 2
You realize there are a lot of pretty damn good paying jobs flocking to SC right now right? We just got Boeing to move here out of Seattle. And if we're able to pass the Fair Tax, it should further improve our economy. Do we have poor? Yes. Many of them because asshats like Jim Clyburn keep those people in poverty because doing so keeps him in a nice fancy office in Washington, D.C.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/21/2010 12:26:23 AM , Rating: 4
Your state has a lot of room to accept jobs flocking to it

with the 5th worst unemployment rate in the nation.
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

A $14 an hour median wage
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_sc.htm

A per capita personal income of $31k/yr with only one state (Mississippi) being below 31K/yr
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104652.html

and here is a fun one for you the third highest rate of gonorrhea in the US
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_gon_rat-healt...

Your race to the top has just begun and you have a long a way to go


RE: Easy to become a leader
By zzeoss on 9/21/2010 2:06:43 AM , Rating: 5
consider that in my country (Romania) the average wage / day is around 20 US$
- and the clothes price is probably the same
- and the food price is the same (or more espensive than europe)
- and the gas is more expensive (europe level)
- and the gadgets/computers are more expensive (+~30-40%)
- and we're screwed by corporations/government daily (our rights have no value)
- and we have high speed internet and more "pirates" (what would you expect?)
- and so on

just sayin'

you still have it good


RE: Easy to become a leader
By FITCamaro on 9/21/2010 8:26:23 AM , Rating: 2
I think you fail to realize that $14/hr here is a pretty damn good wage. We don't have the high cost of living that other areas do. It's not like New York where a McDonald's employee probably makes $14/hr.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/21/2010 9:48:32 AM , Rating: 2
I hear this arguement all the time. Does a gallon of milk cost less? how about a car? the clothes you wear? the computer your on right now? I'll give you cheaper housing, but I don't think that closes the pay gap or the differences in standard of living.

You can say a computer nice car or fancy clothes are luxuries and I'll say you have a lower standard of living.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 12:57:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I hear this arguement all the time.


Well that should tell you something. If you're truly trying to dismiss what a "cost of living" is, which it sounds like, you're a bigger fool than I thought.

There is NO comparison between the cost of living in South Carolina and any average Democrat run northern state of your choosing. Even right across the border, in NC, the cost of living is much higher.

Maybe when you move out of your parents house and live on your own, you'll see there are FAR bigger impacts to your budget than a gallon of milk, computers, and clothes. Maybe if you had used sales taxes, property taxes, and state income taxes you could have convinced us you know what the hell you're talking about kid.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/21/2010 3:46:09 PM , Rating: 2
A little late to the discussion aren't you 77? Maybe you should check into things before you just start yapping. Maybe the effective tax rate in SC is low because most people don't make over $13,701, but for those that do a 7% individual tax rate puts it into the top 25% of the states.
http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf

And with only a quick look their cost of living. SC has the highest cost of living in the south and higher than high wage states like OH, IL, MI, IN, WI. and no the cost of living in NC is lower. I like your opinions though are they from real world experience or what youv'e read about on the internet?
http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_...

I was going to say I get what I pay for in terms of services paid for but thats when I thought SC had a low tax rate and cost of living. Then I checked out their sales tax and was totally lost. Upwards of 8%.
http://www.sctax.org/NR/rdonlyres/ACD264C6-3FD5-4A...

What exactly has SC gotten for whoring itself out.

So I guess you are just ignorant to the facts get out a little and try and take in the real world see what its all about. Or at least look for some facts before you start yapping your opinion.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 7:05:07 PM , Rating: 2
Since when did "the rest of the south" enter the argument? Nice job moving the goalposts...


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/21/2010 8:05:31 PM , Rating: 2
That is all you got. Did you not read the second sentence? It was in direct response to your challenge to find any democratic run northern state that had a lower cost of living than SC. I gave you four. and showed how SC didn't even measure up to the low bar set by other southern states. Your arguments sound like the ramblings of a fourth grader ..... educated by the state of florida.

come back any time you'd like more.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can say a computer nice car or fancy clothes are luxuries and I'll say you have a lower standard of living.


What can you say? $28K/year is barely a full ROTH investment above poverty. If you care about such things.

Not to mention that the Feds send more money to SC than they get, so typical of southern states.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.h...
(scroll down)

So who's the real welfare state?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:32:16 PM , Rating: 2
That only proves what we've been saying all along. The Federal government spends TOO MUCH. You're trying to make an argument against S.C where none exists.

But, of course, you're a Liberal. You'll never agree the Federal Government has a spending problem.

Oh and even though it was a national story last year, you must have missed it. But the S.C Governor publicly stated he would NOT take any "Stimulus" money. Guess what? He was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a choice, and the state would be FORCED to receive the Federal money.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:46:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But, of course, you're a Liberal. You'll never agree the Federal Government has a spending problem.

I never vote liberal, I hate useless spending, and since southern states are doing sooooo well why send them anything?

quote:
But the S.C Governor publicly stated he would NOT take any "Stimulus" money. Guess what? He was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a choice, and the state would be FORCED to receive the Federal money.

So send back the other funds. Plenty to choose from. Did SC send back any money received under W? Or is the O card all you have to play with?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 1:54:31 PM , Rating: 2
W bailed out the states? I wasn't aware of this...

Look if the status quo is the problem, which it is, fine make that your point. But attempting to say that S.C isn't a well run state because they, like EVERY STATE, receive too much federal money.. that's just retarded. The problem isn't the State at this point.

Part of the reasons States receive federal money is because the Federal Government passes unfunded mandates in the form of laws and bureaucracies onto the states that they simply can't pay for. Hence the Federal compensations.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 4:23:23 PM , Rating: 2
Other states manager to cover these costs and more.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By FITCamaro on 9/22/2010 8:30:17 AM , Rating: 3
Tell me about a state that is predominantly liberal which has a budget surplus? All the bastions of liberalism are doing far worse than SC. We are at least trying to rein in spending. You probably don't like that Sanford has said he would cut funding to every public park before he would raise taxes. Why? Because they're luxuries. Not necessities. I also didn't say we're doing great either. I said jobs are starting to flock here because of the lower costs of doing business.

And states get federal funding because the federal government has usurped state authority. There should be no federal Department of Education. Or a federal EPA. Or a federal welfare, medicare, or medicaid program. These things should be wholly owned and managed by the states. Instead the states give money to the government to have it get redistributed to less fortunate states or states who are more liberal with their spending. If a state can't afford to pay for its programs, the federal government should not be bailing them out. They should have to operate like a business. You cut costs, you eliminate luxuries. It's pretty sad when Cuba and Russia are slashing their government payrolls as we ever expand ours. The health care bill creates tens of thousands of new bureaucrat jobs. Where exactly is the money to pay for all them going to come from. At the average government salary now, it probably takes a 100 people or more in the private sector paying taxes to pay the salary of a single government worker. And the government worker makes more than them, has better benefits, AND gets a guaranteed pension if he stays long enough. So not only do we have to fund an ever expanding government. We also have to pay every retiring employee for the rest of their lives.

Yet this is the system liberals push for. A system of ever expanding and unfunded liabilities. Unless we get rid of it, every state will grow more and more dependent on the federal government for funding the requirements imposed on them.

And computers and fancy clothes ARE luxuries. And yes cars do cost less here. Lower land costs mean less overhead for dealerships resulting in lower dealer markup. Now is it always the case? No. But any business here can operate for less than in a state like New York. Of course it also depends on where in New York. But in general, the cost of doing business in South Carolina is far lower than in a state like New York. Which means products can be sold at a lower markup resulting in lower prices.

South Carolina actually has a very high state income tax. I pay 7% on practically all my income. We are trying to change this by replacing it with a FairTax. As the federal govenment should with the federal income tax. But that won't happen because then the income tax system couldn't be used to redistribute wealth. But at least we might be able to change it here in SC.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 7:10:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you fail to realize that $14/hr here is a pretty damn good wage.

What a sad statement.

quote:
We don't have the high cost of living that other areas do.


Oh no doubt, your area truly excels in "don't haves." It's followed by an equally long list of "don't cares."

Having lived in a high cost area I can say I made more, I paid more, and I saved more. That in turn gives me more freedom to do other things now and in retirement.

If people were only concerned with low cost living then they would continue to live with their parents and eat only at McDonalds. Sorry if there are people out there that do not find this satisfactory.

And neither are those $10 meals at the national chain restaurants that constantly advertise on TV.

quote:
It's not like New York where a McDonald's employee probably makes $14/hr.

Oh one of the few times your guesswork is actually identified as such. You do realize you can't get a job at Faux using such tactics.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/22/2010 10:47:38 AM , Rating: 2
Yep... $14 is living high on the hog!

$26k a year.... wow!

Take some taxes out of that and I guess you're ready to pay for college, a home, kids, yadda yadda

I dont care what the local cost of living is.... $26k is NOT going to cut it. Even if you force both mom and dad to work thus leaving the kids to raise themselves (this is working so good now isnt it?) then the family income is now a staggering $52k a year!

Wall Street here I come!


RE: Easy to become a leader
By ClownPuncher on 9/21/2010 7:43:50 PM , Rating: 2
Boeing did not move out of Seattle, they built another plant near you. Big difference. WA state also lacks a corporate tax, your local government had to offer them tax rebates to build out there so we would bring jobs.

Don't try to paint a different picture here.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By zmatt on 9/20/2010 9:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
I live near the Toyota plant in Kentucky and I know many people who have worked there for many years. Your statement is ignorant and simply wrong. The Toyota employees do the best they can to prevent the unions form getting in because they know it will destroy their employer and hurt them down the road. Toyota's wages and benefits are fair and nobody complains about it.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/21/2010 12:14:58 AM , Rating: 2
Please. Don't confuse the union leg humpers on this blog with facts like that.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By iwanttobehef on 9/21/2010 12:32:11 AM , Rating: 2
Facts? I see only personal observations and opinion. My neighbor told me that he hated his job at toyota and really wanted better wages. see I can do it too


RE: Easy to become a leader
By zmatt on 9/21/2010 8:47:14 AM , Rating: 2
funny, observations that's what a great deal of science is based on. I have observed in the 20 years I have lived here that people who work at the Toyota plant like it and in general they don't want the unions in. Now if you are implying I am lying and that I'm saying that just to win an argument, well i really can't prove otherwise without giving up part of the all to wonderful anonymity. So you will just have to take my word.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By FITCamaro on 9/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By jrb531 on 9/21/2010 11:14:16 AM , Rating: 3
Some people feel that the goal in the US is to bring "everybody" down to the lowest level instead of bringing the lowest level up.

While Unions are NOT perfect, I'll trust them with my interests far more than I will a company beholden to it's stockholders to make a profit at any cost.

If regulations are forcing companies out of the US then I'm sure that the wages, benefits and environmental concerns are the same as they are here correct?

After all they are ONLY leaving due to regulations?

I guess if you include Polution Controls, Wages, Benefits, working hours etc... as regulations... well I guess they left for those reasons :)


RE: Easy to become a leader
By OoklaTheMok on 9/20/2010 3:01:09 PM , Rating: 5
OK, get off the exaggeration train...

"...US Government's clear hatred of manufacturing as of late." Are you on crack? Conservatives (Republican & Democratic) have bent over backwards to make it profitable through tax incentives to move production oversees. Whenever there is talk about closing the tax loopholes, the companies then spout off about how they will just move all their jobs oversees if the loop holes are closed. The companies that are benefiting from this, are effectively holding the country hostage.

"...highest corporate tax rate in the world" This is utterly false. We as a nation do not have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. A study came out recently, can't recall the name, but it compared corporate tax rates across the world, and we are average among the countries studied. So if we merely average or median in our corporate tax rate, we obviously do not have the highest tax rate in the world.

You have a rather disturbed viewpoint of the people who work for companies. Would you prefer it if everyone was an indentured servant to one or more companies? Ignore paying people a fair wage, they should of course just be thankful for having a job to wake up to and slave for.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Nfarce on 9/20/2010 3:24:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We as a nation do not have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.


I'm sure the "study" you saw had some twists and contortions of data, like what about a % of GDP figure, tax loopholes, etc. But in any event, here's the raw unmolested and unspun data:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/229...

quote:
Would you prefer it if everyone was an indentured servant to one or more companies? Ignore paying people a fair wage, they should of course just be thankful for having a job to wake up to and slave for.


Oh please. Stop with the big evil company slave FUD. Ultimately, the job belongs to the company, not the employee. While there are laws that protect workers rights (and safety) that weren't around during the US industrial boom (and hence, why unions came to be) the fact remains that the company owns that job. If I start my own company and hire you, that's my owned job given to you until 1) your performance starts costing my company money and I fire you, 2) you decide to quit and move on to something better, or 3) I decide to relocate my business elsewhere due to increased tax burdens.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By theapparition on 9/20/2010 8:43:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If I start my own company and hire you, that's my owned job given to you until 1) your performance starts costing my company money and I fire you, 2) you decide to quit and move on to something better, or 3) I decide to relocate my business elsewhere due to increased tax burdens.

You forgot the most common and relevant one of all. 4) My company is losing money and I'm forced to eliminate your position so I can remain in business. If I do better in the future, that position may reopen, but if I keep losing money and go out of business, then not only you lose you job, but so do I and every other employee.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 7:22:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Oh please. Stop with the big evil company slave FUD.

Stopping corporate welfare and bullshit subsidies would be better.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By BSMonitor on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Easy to become a leader
By Looey on 9/20/2010 4:25:54 PM , Rating: 2
All of my union neighbors are driving Toyotas and Hondas made by non union workers. One is a union official for a sheetrockers union who had a big Obama sign in his front yard in the last election. He has three Toyotas. How do you explain that?

The UAW has put Ford, Chrysler and GM at a big disadvantage to Toyota and Honda due to the benefits they receive.

Unions and their ideas were good years ago but have become organizations bent on socialism and politics. I've dealt with unions who didn't give a damn about what their workers wanted. One example is a working group wanting to work four 10 hour days or three twelve hour days and getting turned down by their union. Some of the workers were driving forty to fifty miles to work. Unions are similar to some politicians today who think they know best and won't do what their constituents want. The unions have become bigger and more important than the members. They're great examples of communism.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By Netjak on 9/21/2010 8:19:30 PM , Rating: 2
funny.
a live in Croatia. There is no outdated american made big ass ugly cars, just like all over Europe. But, speaking of toyota, o yea, here it is.

consumers don't want big, ugly, low quality high consumption cars. its not about wages or unions (i can't care less), its about inovations, design, quality. its management, not workers fault.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By PaterPelligrino on 9/21/2010 3:47:29 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Especially in light of the US government's clear hatred of manufacturing as of late. It is government policy that has forced out companies just as much as it is a desire to make more money.


That's not true. It's cheap labor that has induced American corporations to go abroad. In 2008, the GAO found that “two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005.” Last year neither Exxon nor GE paid any taxes.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 1:34:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's cheap labor that has induced American corporations to go abroad.

That was going to happen, unions or no unions, for many jobs. Just look at white collar jobs.

quote:
Last year neither Exxon nor GE paid any taxes.

Can't you hear the lunatics cheering?


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 1:18:28 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I bear no ill will towards companies wanting to save money.

You couldn't hate a company if they turned the town you live in into a cancer hot spot.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By RivuxGamma on 9/21/2010 4:31:43 PM , Rating: 2
HAHAHAHAHAHA! That's exactly what they did to Caterpillar.

They wanted plans for bulldozers and stuff from the 1960's to give their manufacturers so that they could "remain competitive." Caterpillar gladly agreed because who would want to use old tech when these fancy new ones were available?

The Chinese government then gave the plans to all of their manufacturers which cranked them out and now China has better equipment than they had before on a large scale without having to do any of the research and only use the new, more expensive Caterpillar stuff in rare applications.

I am still amazed that nobody saw that coming.


RE: Easy to become a leader
By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 1:37:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I am still amazed that nobody saw that coming.


Hell we still give them "most favored nation" status.


The Art of War
By clovell on 9/20/2010 1:10:32 PM , Rating: 3
So China would effectively nationalize patented EV tech in their pay-to-play scheme. Seems a bit like economic warfare.




RE: The Art of War
By FaceMaster on 9/20/2010 1:15:02 PM , Rating: 4
I've done this for years. If my sister wants to borrow something from me, I demand that she shows me her breasts. That way, we both benefit.


RE: The Art of War
By Motoman on 9/20/2010 1:18:33 PM , Rating: 3
>.<


RE: The Art of War
By TheDoc9 on 9/20/10, Rating: -1
RE: The Art of War
By aebiv on 9/20/2010 1:20:54 PM , Rating: 5
I dunno about that... Sick and wrong? Yes

But I did lol


RE: The Art of War
By sprockkets on 9/20/2010 6:10:26 PM , Rating: 1
What if she were your half sister...


RE: The Art of War
By DFranch on 9/20/2010 6:14:33 PM , Rating: 4
then she could show 1 breast.


RE: The Art of War
By FITCamaro on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: The Art of War
By BSMonitor on 9/20/2010 4:02:44 PM , Rating: 5
It's a joke..

Maybe your brother's shank instead? Or just his nutsack..


RE: The Art of War
By snakeInTheGrass on 9/20/2010 4:18:45 PM , Rating: 2
If only I could rate you up AND tell you that I'm dying laughing. :) Classic!


RE: The Art of War
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:17:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's a joke..

See FIT, it's just like the joke you made about running over little black kids, except this joke is in much better taste.

You'd think you'd get tired of that double standard your kind insists on.


RE: The Art of War
By TheDoc9 on 9/20/2010 6:02:37 PM , Rating: 1
Apparently you and me got rated down for being normal people who are disgusted at the idea of checking out our siblings junk.

Moral decay?


RE: The Art of War
By FITCamaro on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: The Art of War
By Digimonkey on 9/21/2010 1:01:11 PM , Rating: 2
You got rated down because you don't know how to take a joke. If the joke wasn't for you, that's ok, just shake your head and groan. Don't claim it's the sign of the apocalypse.


RE: The Art of War
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 1:33:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Don't claim it's the sign of the apocalypse.

It's not?

Too bad, now we must spend more time listening to those who insist it's coming.


RE: The Art of War
By Flail on 9/21/2010 4:11:59 PM , Rating: 2
Hey! They're doing you a favor you know. That is, only if we assume that the apocalypse will come when everyone least expects it.

Since there are people warning of the impending apocalypse, it ensures that everyone is aware of it, effectively delaying it indefinitely.

so long as people keep thinking the apocalypse is coming. Which, it will, once people stop thinking that. Eventually. YOU'LL SEE!


RE: The Art of War
By FaceMaster on 9/21/2010 6:28:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
now we must spend more time listening to those who insist it's coming.


I'm telling you, man, I definitely come sometimes when I see them.


RE: The Art of War
By KIAman on 9/20/2010 2:17:22 PM , Rating: 1
America fights back!!! We should tell the Chinese Government that we will stop shipping contraceptives and increase shipment of pron. That's how we do things!


RE: The Art of War
By quiksilvr on 9/20/2010 3:02:44 PM , Rating: 2
That would be an effective solution if they didn't already make their own condoms and pr0n. :/


RE: The Art of War
By clovell on 9/21/2010 5:49:33 PM , Rating: 1
It's still an effective solution - lead poisoning on your dick is not fun for anybody.


the Golden rule
By priusone on 9/20/2010 1:29:24 PM , Rating: 2
He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Plus, I doubt any company here in the US would dare try to harvest a large sum of rare earth minerals from our soil. While it may slightly lessen China's monopoly on rare earth minerals, the media fallout (environmental) would hardly be worth it.




RE: the Golden rule
By FITCamaro on 9/20/2010 2:30:09 PM , Rating: 3
Even if we had large reserves, theres no way the EPA or tree huggers would let such a plan go through. Utilizing natural resources is wrong, unless its done by someone else. That's pretty much our policy now. Take for instance the Gulf of Mexico. Obama illegally shut down all US drilling in the Gulf of Mexico costing thousands of jobs (and then has the audacity to blame it on BP). What does he do after that? He borrows $2 billion (from China) and gives to Mexico to do what? Drill offshore in the Gulf of Mexico.

Same with last year. Conservatives wanted to drill offshore. The administration said no. What did they do then? Borrowed $2 billion (from China) and gave it to Brazil to do offshore oil exploration.


RE: the Golden rule
By fortiori on 9/20/2010 3:08:07 PM , Rating: 2
FITCamaro the US did not give any money to Mexico or Brazil for offshore drilling, the Import/Export bank loaned it to them. It had nothing to do with Obama.

See: http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/bogus-brazilian-o...

And: http://olehgirl.com/?p=4399

According to the American Heritage Dictionary a loan is: "n. A sum of money lent at interest."

What do you stand to gain by propagating lies? Do you think it somehow benefits society or even the discussion itself to have arguments based on things being the way you imagine them, as opposed to the way they actually are?


RE: the Golden rule
By FITCamaro on 9/20/2010 8:09:50 PM , Rating: 3
The government must give approval. The second article even states this.

And how does borrowing money to loan to a foreign entity to buy our own goods help us? We're buying goods from ourselves with money we haven't even earned yet.


RE: the Golden rule
By aj28 on 9/20/2010 8:32:35 PM , Rating: 3
For anyone interested, here is the quote relevant to Fit's second point:

quote:
In fact, the loan is being made specifically to finance purchase by Petrobras of U.S.-made oilfield equipment and services.


In response, I offer this: We are doing it because not only do they buy our goods, but we also get the money back in the end. The money we are loaning could technically be considered "borrowed" as part of the national debt, so taking that into the equation, you essentially have the US government subsidizing, at most, 3.87% of the cost of the equipment. That is assuming that the loan to Brazil is thirty years. The theoretical "cost" of financing this operation is significantly less if the loan is actually much more short-term.

My issue is that you seem to be painting a picture in which the government is paying Bazil $2 billion to buy $2 of American-made equipment. In reality, the cost to the taxpayer is, at most, the 3.87% coupon on $2 billion in 30-year treasuries. Considering the percentage of treasuries bought by US entities, and thus subtracting the dividend taxes which are deducted from coupons received by those entities, the cost is further reduced. I don't have the numbers, so I won't make up figures.

Your thoughts?


RE: the Golden rule
By aj28 on 9/20/2010 8:46:18 PM , Rating: 2
I would actually like to one-up myself here: The Ex-Im bank is self-sustaining, though the above argument is sound on the basis on defending the use of taxpayer dollars for such purposes, even though that is not the case here.


RE: the Golden rule
By FITCamaro on 9/21/2010 8:30:12 AM , Rating: 2
The point is that the government attacks oil companies here and disagrees with drilling offshore. But helps fund and allow other countries to do it. If oil is so evil for us to drill for, why is it different in other parts of the world?


RE: the Golden rule
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:20:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If [offshore] oil is so evil for us to drill for, why is it different in other parts of the world?

Capitalism with added emphasis on amoralism?

Sociopathic capitalism?

It really does deserve a name at some point. It's not taught in economics classes this way, this is a special de-evolved version.

It the kind that allows us to sell arms to both sides of a war when opportunity strikes, or sell antiquated highly polluting steel manufacturing equipment to China because of pollution laws here while they pollute the same air over there.

Short version - It's called being an asshole hypocrite, caving in to special interests, which is just another name for corporations.


RE: the Golden rule
By FITCamaro on 9/22/2010 8:36:46 AM , Rating: 2
So from my statement you got that corporations created this situation? Man you have some issues.


RE: the Golden rule
By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 9:56:27 AM , Rating: 2
As if your "corporations can do no wrong" stance is realistic in any way, shape, or form.


RE: the Golden rule
By fortiori on 9/20/2010 8:34:43 PM , Rating: 2
I have no idea what you're talking about in your second paragraph. The bank lent them the money so they could make money on that money. That's how banking works. I already defined 'loan', do I need to define the term interest as well?

Just in case: "n. A charge for a loan, usually a percentage of the amount loaned."

The interest in question will be returned to the import/export bank as a return on their investment. I would have thought you would think this is a good thing because it brings money to an American banking institution, which is one of the many reasons the government might give the go ahead for the bank to do business with a foreign county.

Are you saying you're against our banks making money by lending it to others? Up until now you seemed to be a pretty pro American Corporation type of guy. I guess i've been reading you wrong.


RE: the Golden rule
By BSMonitor on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: the Golden rule
By sviola on 9/20/2010 5:05:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh wait, first democracy in region.


Well, both Turkey, Lebanon and Israel are democracies in the region. Iraq was not the first.


RE: the Golden rule
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
So they can put food on their families and reach the peak of civilization: french fries with gravy and cheese, really cheap beer, and $14/hour pay. What more could you ask for?


By Thelookingglass on 9/20/2010 3:14:31 PM , Rating: 3
There are too many passive idealists in America who have little patriotic connection with Americans as a people and a nation. They aim to please the rest of the world so others stop aiming hate our way.

Reality check. Continue on our path and China will be number one. They will reach that point and they will reach it very soon. Most Americans alive today have never lived in a country that is number two.

There are things we could do to help ourselves out. Things to keep a communist country from dictating world matters. But its not going to happen as long as people who lack integrity and patriotism continue to drown blissfully in their own ignorance.

People will rate me down for this post because it sounds like biggotry or fear-mongering.

Somewhere along the way people were told helping OUR country keep its position in the world wasn't the right thing to do.

OUR country who is the first and foremost humanitarian among nations. OUR country who's people enjoy choice, freedom, and liberty beyond the measure of any other country in the world. OUR country who still is and will always be a beacon of freedom and hope for millions around the globe.

Do we let that beacon fade?

To allow an ideologically skewed country power over us will change this country more than anything that has come before it. All they'd have to do is tighten their grip and they could destroy or way of life.

Check their population, compare it to ours, and tell me they couldn't do it.

Check the "Made in _______" stamp on most the stuff in your house and tell me they couldn't do it.

Check your facts period. Tell me they won't do it. This is the first flex of power. This is a sign of things to come.

Ignorance is bliss. Until you wake up and the world you knew is gone.




By bug77 on 9/20/2010 4:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
Correction, it's not the first.

The chinese have forced all internet companies to play by their rules. The chinese have forced hardware makers to disclose encryption secrets (last I checked, this was still standing - might have been reversed since then). And that's only stuff I've heard about.


RE: This is what the American people don't understand.
By TSS on 9/20/2010 4:31:02 PM , Rating: 2
In case you haven't noticed, it's too late to do anything about it. Once the interest rates go up, and they will, all china has to do to kill america off is say "no, where not going to lend you any more money".

And you won't be number 2. That kind of thinking is exactly what put you in this situation.

India will become 2. Russia 3, the EU 4.... and that's if where lucky as well. the US is looking at a no.5 spot (why behind the EU? Because after the last crisis the EU is selling off american assets since we took a big hit from that as well. so next time we won't be hit as hard. Why the EU behind russia? Natural Gas dependancy).

And honestly not even war is an option. In order to fund war, historically the US has switched to a fiat currency. Since you are already on a fiat currency that's reached the brink of sustainability, how are you going to actually pay for that war?

The US citizens can't support the government either since their neck-deep in mortgage and creditcard debt. So buying war bonds is out of the question.

So while the speech is nice, it really is... what do you propose ya actually *do* about this whole situation?


By aj28 on 9/20/2010 7:57:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In case you haven't noticed, it's too late to do anything about it. Once the interest rates go up, and they will, all china has to do to kill america off is say "no, where not going to lend you any more money".


I suggest that you research how the treasury market works. Case in point: China does not "lend" us money. Nobody does. Wrap your head around that, please.


By iceonfire1 on 9/20/2010 9:37:09 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm... And why should China have the "number one spot"? Look at population statistics. There is no moral reason that the U.S. should so strongly influence world policy (c'mon, democracy please). Also, your thinking could be just as easily called "skewed" by them; you are assuming inherent superiority when none exists.

In truth, I'm not really patriotic. I think global citizenship is more important and I dislike the U.S.'s implementations of humanitarianism.

One last thing, "Until you wake up and the world you knew is gone" doesn't really apply does it? Remember Obama's campaign slogan, which won him loads of support?


By inaphasia on 9/20/2010 10:17:48 PM , Rating: 2
"OUR country who is the first and foremost humanitarian among nations. OUR country who's people enjoy choice, freedom, and liberty beyond the measure of any other country in the world. OUR country who still is and will always be a beacon of freedom and hope for millions around the globe."

Cute, but sounds like something written in 1910! And the borders were open in 1910... You're confused. Take your own advice to stop being passive (in other words form your own opinion since that's the whole point of freedom and liberty), and do check your facts!

You also don't travel much, do you?

"It liberates the vandal to travel--you never saw a bigoted, opinionated, stubborn, narrow-minded, self-conceited, almighty mean man in your life but he had stuck in one place since he was born."

-Mark Twain

(and, ironically, no... ignorance is not bliss in your case)


By Wulf145 on 9/21/2010 7:40:04 AM , Rating: 2
You fear most that what you are prepared to inflict upon others will be inflicted upon yourself.

What makes you think that China has any interest in changing the "American-way-of-life"?

As long as you are their best & biggest Customer the last thing they want to do is to impose anything on you that will change that.


By BigSlick on 9/21/2010 11:42:02 AM , Rating: 2
And let the chu'ch say, AMEN!


By clovell on 9/21/2010 5:51:33 PM , Rating: 2
This is an economic issue, which is more complicated than just production capacity. That aside, you're spot-on.


By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:34:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
OUR country who is the first and foremost humanitarian among nations.

Yeah we certainly did our best addressing African genocide.

At least over there, FIT is still doing his thing with the little black kids here, you may want to look into that as part of that humanitarian psychedelic drug you've been giving yourself.


By Reclaimer77 on 9/21/2010 11:09:08 PM , Rating: 2
Yash what's it like living day to day being such a cynic? Honestly it must be SO depressing.


By YashBudini on 9/22/2010 10:01:03 AM , Rating: 2
You know everything Mr Sarah Palin why don't you explain it for us.


By jrb531 on 9/22/2010 11:10:24 AM , Rating: 3
There was a time a few years back in which we had a choice.

1. Buy products at a slightly higher price that were made in America by Americans

2. Buy prodcuts at a cheaper price made outside the country

Guess what we picked?

So WE did this to ourselves! When we could have mattered we told Wall Street that we only cared about low prices.

If a store opened up next to Walmart and offered everything Walmart has but made in America by Americans but the prices were 10% higher... guess where "most" people would shop.

So that store would either have two choices...

1. Go out of business
2. Buy from out of the US so they can lower their costs.

Funny thing is that in the end, due to Walmart's size and ability to strongarm companies into selling them stuff lower than anyone else, that store would end up going out of business anyway.

Monopolies kill off competition and when any company becomes as big as Walmart to the point of eating everything up in its path... then the governement steps in and breaks up the company. Why has Microsoft been investigated and not Walmart?


Is that all?
By Nighteye2 on 9/20/2010 1:48:25 PM , Rating: 3
Easy solution: don't produce in China. Plenty of other countries with able workers to produce those cars.




RE: Is that all?
By keegssj on 9/20/2010 1:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
Then they just say: "If you want to sell those cars in China then you have to...."


RE: Is that all?
By FITCamaro on 9/20/10, Rating: 0
RE: Is that all?
By Samus on 9/20/2010 2:23:26 PM , Rating: 2
Aww whats wong they can't steal technology like they used too?


RE: Is that all?
By zzeoss on 9/21/2010 2:11:51 AM , Rating: 2
yeah strange, they want to legalize stealing ...


RE: Is that all?
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
yeah strange, they want to legalize stealing ...

They got the idea from watching Wall St bankers.


RE: Is that all?
By snakeInTheGrass on 9/20/2010 4:23:09 PM , Rating: 2
OK, and if they ever want to sell their cars here, they can't impose those restrictions on our businesses. Oh, wait, some political wankers will explain that that's protectionism and that it would be really bad to do that.

Of course, we got sold out years ago, so at this point I assume they can arm-twist our government to never do anything 'crazy' like that, and instead to force our companies to set up shop and complete the process of getting screwed. :/

(If it makes anyone happy, I haven't seen a Republican OR Democrat try to actually defend out national interests since probably before Nixon and detente - just sayin' before we get the 'Obama's fault' comments...)


Our Fault
By RU on 9/20/2010 1:46:03 PM , Rating: 2
We (United States companies)brought this all upon ourselves. WE allowed this to happen and gave all the leverage to China due to our greed.

If you didn't see this all coming you had to be a total idiot.




RE: Our Fault
By hughlle on 9/20/2010 1:50:56 PM , Rating: 3
Well said. There is no need or requirement to produce anything in China, it simply means more profit if they do, os they do. If i was in charge of a company and this came forward, i'd say well f*** you china, as simple as that And if their business model prohibits this kind of response, then their business model is pretty heavily flawed :)


RE: Our Fault
By aj28 on 9/20/2010 8:02:22 PM , Rating: 3
China is not the only center for cheap labor in the world. We can easily produce in other parts of SE Asia, or better yet, Mexico. When US production leaves China, their economy will stumble hard as it has a weak currency, thanks to blatant manipulation, and no domestic demand.

Why do people believe what Chinese politicians say, but not US politicians? They're twice as corrupt, and thrice as arrogant. They'd tell you they could conquer the world if you asked them, and they'd do it with a straight face. That is China.


RE: Our Fault
By JonnyDough on 9/21/2010 7:11:20 AM , Rating: 2
Bill Clinton+Monica in his office=Chinese Trade Deal?


China
By kontorotsui on 9/20/2010 2:40:39 PM , Rating: 2
What happened to you, China? You used to be cool




RE: China
By IcePickFreak on 9/20/2010 3:21:14 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, they were much cooler when they only put their own arbitrary value on their dollar while everyone else is on the money market. That was fine, but now that want our EV tech as well? Noooooooo!


RE: China
By aj28 on 9/20/2010 8:03:41 PM , Rating: 2
Odd... Usually Chinese government message board propaganda has worse grammar and more capitalized letters. =P


RE: China
By bespoke on 9/21/2010 12:32:16 PM , Rating: 2
Hey China's still cool! You pay later! Later!


Trust
By Cache on 9/20/2010 9:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Trust Chinese companies with intellectual secrets is like the MPAA/RIAA trusting the Pirate Bay. Except that in China, of course, piracy is legal, often encouraged by the low-level authorities, and the 'party of the people' is an impotent nothing when it comes to local laws.

This simple fact of life is that China will always take the good ideas because it knows that we can't stop them. There is nothing we can threaten China with in any capacity--and they can always reverse engineer what they buy on the open market and take the technology for themselves.




RE: Trust
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:51:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is nothing we can threaten China with in any capacity

Have you seen their addiction to KFC? In the future we may own them. Unless they figure out the 11 herbs and spices, then we're really screwed.


RE: Trust
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:51:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is nothing we can threaten China with in any capacity

Have you seen their addiction to KFC? In the future we may own them. Unless they figure out the 11 herbs and spices, then we're really screwed.


Dear China.
By JonnyDough on 9/21/2010 7:09:43 AM , Rating: 1
Fuck yourself.




RE: Dear China.
By JonnyDough on 9/21/2010 7:13:54 AM , Rating: 2
I think we need to find the 2% of the products at Walmart that are American made and distribute stickers on them that say "Stolen by, but not made in China."

Yes, over 90% of the products sold in Walmart are made in China. Google it.


RE: Dear China.
By YashBudini on 9/21/2010 10:47:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, over 90% of the products sold in Walmart are made in China.

Even a lot of the food.

Who's up for a lead sandwich?


corporate scum
By cyberserf on 9/22/2010 11:53:15 AM , Rating: 2
now the corporate bozos in the auto industry want to make cars in China to increase more profit. sheesh.
Haven't they been doing fine making cars outside of China since forever so why do we even need to go there in the first place except for more profits using the slave labor.

The only reason China is where it is at is because these clowns wanted to make high profits from cheap labor. Simple as that.

The US government does nothing to stop this either. they allow free trade instead of taxing the imports so that is why most manufacturing has gone for good.




RE: corporate scum
By JonnyDough on 9/22/2010 7:19:33 PM , Rating: 2
Yep. Thank Clinton for that whole free trade thing. What a stupid administration. Trying to paint himself in a profitable presidential light while really, he screwed us all. Now we're too afraid of isolation to raise import tax on China.


Why don't we...
By JonnyDough on 9/21/2010 7:16:34 AM , Rating: 2
Just show them all our technologies and then help them declare war on us?

"Here's our top secret plans for our electric engines...oh, and before I forget here are the key-codes for our nuclear missile silos."




American Cars
By MDPlatts on 9/21/2010 7:40:31 AM , Rating: 2
This whole discussion is moot - who on earth buys american cars - other than americans and a few ex-pats ??

Its going to be japanese and europeans and maybe the south koreans.




If the US auto MFG does this
By saganhill on 9/21/2010 10:37:33 AM , Rating: 2
If the US does this they are bigger idiots than I already think they are. Giving China anything is just a bad idea across the board.




Just steal it...
By masamasa on 9/22/2010 10:58:40 AM , Rating: 2
That's what you usually do.




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