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Congress must think about another bill designed to help "protect" children

Children who head to local libraries may not be able to visit social networking web sites Facebook and MySpace unless they have parental supervision.  The bill created by Rep. Mark Steven Kirk (R, IL) is now before Congress, and I am rather curious to see if Congress approves of this latest attempt to "protect" our children.

The bill aims to keep children safe from child predators when kids are in the library and using the social networking web sites by themselves.  Kirk's bill has already been met with both enthusiasm and discontent, as the American Library Association has showed its discomfort with the bill.

"If people in a community do not feel confident that their privacy will be protected, they cannot use the library as it was intended, for intellectual pursuit," American Library Association Washington office leader Emily Sheketoff said.  "It will intimidate them."

The association has bumped heads with the federal government several times in the past, with the USA Patriot Act raising the most concern among association officers.  One of the provisions of the Patriot Act gives federal investigators more power to monitor the books and videos a person checks out of the library and what web sites they visit.

Sen. Mike Fitzpatrick (R-PA) previously drafted the Deleting Online Predators Act of 2006, which died in 2006 but reappeared in 2007 and 2008.  Its 2007 reincarnation saw it added to the Protecting Children in the 21st Century Act by Sen. Ted Stevens (R-AK), and was redirected to the Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee.

Several states, including Georgia, Oklahoma and Illinois, have attempted to introduce several bills to try and restrict or outright ban social networking sites for children in public libraries and schools.

In 2000, public libraries were already forced to begin filtering some content so people logging onto the computers could not access it.

I understand the need to try and protect our kids from online child predators, but I don't think banning them from using social networking web sites while in a public library is the right method for this.  I do think children should be blocked from using the sites while in school, but that's more for academic reasons, not for child safety measures.  To all the parents out there:  What do you think about Kirk's bill?  Do you approve?

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A Knee-jerk Fix
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 1:56:40 PM , Rating: 2
The intention is good, but the proposed fix is not.
People are relying more and more on social networking sites to exchange information of all kinds. For instance, there are a number of news interest and political interest groups on the Facebook network. I don't use them for that purpose myself, but I could see how many people could become increasingly accustomed to using a social network as their gateway to other information on the internet, in the same way search engines like Google are gateways to content.
Another example: A Yahoo email account doubles as an account for all kinds of other services, some of which can be used for social networking.
Where do you draw the line?




RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By FITCamaro on 8/3/2008 2:54:09 PM , Rating: 4
So please tell me why they can't do it at home. A library is a place to study and research information. Not for a 16 year old teeny twat to post the latest picture of herself in her underwear.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 3:19:07 PM , Rating: 1
I think you may have entirely missed my point.
I intended to point out that social networking sites are increasingly becoming hubs of information that can be valuable for research. The lines between what we would consider social networking sites and useful portals to pertinent information are blurring.
Also, I thought that the idea behind blocking these sites was to protect children from online predators, not to address whatever issues you personally have with what people do or don't do with public connections. And yes, they CAN do it at home if their parents don't supervise them. And they CAN do it at the library, if their parents don't supervise them. Should parents be spending their time trying to institute specific restrictions on public internet connections or should they find a better way to lead their children to making responsible decisions with regard to internet content?
But perhaps you are right; the only way to ensure safety and practice Control over what people do is to pass legislation to cripple what information is accessible via public hubs (/sarcasm).


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By FaceMaster on 8/4/2008 8:31:24 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
social networking sites are increasingly becoming hubs of information that can be valuable for research.


HAHAHAHAHA


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By swizeus on 8/5/2008 8:18:30 AM , Rating: 2
Mannn, he's SO Theory


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By GaryJohnson on 8/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By CascadingDarkness on 8/6/2008 6:04:17 PM , Rating: 2
Libraries in my area have PCs to provide the service to those who can't afford PCs/internet access of their own. They weren't setup for only the express purpose of academic related use.

While I agree it's not a good idea any children to be doing stuff like that, I don't think access should be eliminated. Adults should have unrestricted access, and something worked out for those below 18.

Questions like this have been pending for a long time with no one coming up with anything that cracks a good balance between usability and safety. First time I heard of this, it was regarding chat rooms. They were the first new area for predators to actively hunt children effectively.

Last I saw kids at the local library get into chat rooms fine, so I'd say no balance was found then, so I find it doubtful one will be this time.

Just wanted to point out I'm writing this based on my opinion that public libraries shouldn't be giant daycare facilities filled with books. It should be a parent's responsibility to know where their kids are, and what risks are associated with that.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By masher2 (blog) on 8/3/2008 3:07:02 PM , Rating: 3
> "Where do you draw the line? "

Easy. For a private computer, you draw no line at all. But for a public computer owned by the government, you draw it wherever the government wants it.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 3:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
That is rather obvious.
However, where the government wants the line drawn is an extension of what the public is able to get policy makers to decide. So, as a member of the public, what specific criteria do you propose for determining what information should or shouldn't be blocked?


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By masher2 (blog) on 8/3/2008 3:46:55 PM , Rating: 2
> "However, where the government wants the line drawn is an extension of what the public is able to get policy makers to decide"

You miss my point. For privately-owned computers, what the government wants should be irrelevant. There are individual rights which trump the opinion of the masses.

A publicly owned computer is a tool of the government, however, and no such rights apply. A library is an establishment meant to promote literacy and learning, and thus sites which aid that goal should -- barring any other objections -- in general be allowed. Despite your unsubstantiated claim that Facebook and Myspace have become founts of research knowledge, I see no reason for people to consume valuable terminal time in a public library browsing such sites.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 4:29:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You miss my point. For privately-owned computers, what the government wants should be irrelevant. There are individual rights which trump the opinion of the masses. A publicly owned computer is a tool of the government, however, and no such rights apply. A library is an establishment meant to promote literacy and learning, and thus sites which aid that goal should -- barring any other objections -- in general be allowed.


I agree. I should have been more specific with my comment - I meant for it to apply to the publicly owned computers.

quote:
I see no reason for people to consume valuable terminal time in a public library browsing such sites.


I just meant to bring attention to my personal observation that social networking sites have become an extremely multi-faceted portal of communication, and more consideration is necessary before the government makes blanket restrictions against accessing these sites. Also, the grounds on which this proposal is being considered has to do with protection of children from harmful situations that can arise from full internet access; whether or not certain kinds of usage are a waste of valuable terminal time is a different can of worms.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By bighairycamel on 8/4/2008 9:56:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Despite your unsubstantiated claim that Facebook and Myspace have become founts of research knowledge, I see no reason for people to consume valuable terminal time in a public library browsing such sites.


I don't use the site personally, but I know some who do and it has become a useful tool in college for study groups or tutoring. Students are using it to share and collaborate information about specific course subjects.

In fact, I think it was on this site where I read someone had been expelled from college for using it to "share homework" even though they were discussing the same things online that they would have been discussing in a live study group.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By masher2 (blog) on 8/3/08, Rating: -1
RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 5:53:56 AM , Rating: 2
You can form groups of people for stuff like study groups. But again, I hardly think you require access to it on a library computer. Nearly every college kid out there has their own computer. And college kids would likely be going to their school's library. And I've never heard of them blocking any sites.


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By ZiggyDeath on 8/4/2008 9:25:15 AM , Rating: 2
Although not specifically for researching purposes, I've used Facebook groups to organize and accomplish group work tasks such as book reviews/discussions. While a bit cumbersome in terms of length, this allows the members to participate in discussion while keeping a physical log which can be parsed over again if needed. Basically it can double as a poor man's forum, which even in that sort of iteration is far more useful than forwarding to multiple e-mail addresses and then possibly loosing track to who said what to whom and when...


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 2:55:22 PM , Rating: 2
And did you do so using Facebook at a public library?


RE: A Knee-jerk Fix
By ZiggyDeath on 8/4/2008 9:33:11 PM , Rating: 2
I did so from my own laptop at my university library...


And?
By FITCamaro on 8/3/2008 10:41:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Children in Public Libraries Could be Banned From Social Networking Sites


Who cares? First of all, people hardly go to libraries anymore. And second, its a damn library. You're not supposed to go there to check out your myspace account. You're supposed to go there to read and research. Also known as learning.




RE: And?
By masher2 (blog) on 8/3/2008 12:27:38 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree. The library isn't a place to social network.

What I find particularly amusing is the comment from the American Library Association that a blanket ban of such site consitutes "intimidation" and a violation of privacy. Come again?


RE: And?
By bighairycamel on 8/4/2008 10:13:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well the bill doesn't call for an outright ban. Using the sites would still be allowed under "adult supervision". Having restrictions like this would mean the library would have to actively monitor what websites were being browsed to find out if anyone was in violation, therefor restricting user privacy.

It's really stupid though, it would just be another law that would go uninforced. I doubt anyone working at the library wants to spend all day monitoring what kids in the library are doing on the PCs.


RE: And?
By kattanna on 8/4/2008 10:35:33 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Who cares?


we all should. you yourself state that people dont go to the libraries anymore, so who is the most likely person to be going there and using the computer? one who doesnt have one at home. I'd rather him/her hanging out in the library surfing myspace then running around on the streets bored.

also, just because its something you dont like to do, why do you feel then its ok to tell others what they can or cant do? Its censorship, pure and simple.

while i myself do not find myspace or facebook interesting at all, i also dont feel the need to tell others how they shouldnt be using it themselves.


RE: And?
By mdogs444 on 8/4/2008 1:37:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
who is the most likely person to be going there and using the computer? one who doesnt have one at home. I'd rather him/her hanging out in the library surfing myspace then running around on the streets bored.

Here is a novel approach - how about taking that boredom, go out, and get a job? Then perhaps you can use up some of that free time, make some money, and buy your own computer! Why does this concept seem to get harder and harder these days?


RE: And?
By cplusplus on 8/7/2008 6:13:17 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, and that's really easy to do when you are, say, 12. Seeing as this is supposed to affect children, the people affected by this bill are usually going to be too young to get jobs.


Your kids are our cattle of the future
By roadrun777 on 8/3/08, Rating: 0
By FITCamaro on 8/3/2008 3:00:13 PM , Rating: 2
Parents either don't want to or care about raising their kids or have to live in fear of doing it right thanks to our liberal school system where disciplining your kids is seen as abuse.

I agree that the government shouldn't be doing it though. And about the only thing influenced by the controlling party is sex ed.


RE: Your kids are our cattle of the future
By masher2 (blog) on 8/3/2008 3:05:53 PM , Rating: 2
> "The chance of your child falling victim to a predator online is about the same for a child to be attacked and killed by a wild animal in a state reserve or park."

Stuff and nonsense. The percentage of children who have experienced a sexual solicitation online is 13% -- down from 19% just a few years earlier:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/...

One-third of those solicitations were aggressive, meaning the child received an unwanted request to meet offline. The total number of such meetings from all those millions of requests is difficult to quantify, but its certainly much more than 500/year, as more prosecutions for such crimes are recorded.

Now, how many people are "attacked and killed by wild animals in a state park?" The total number of people killed each year by animals averages 177. But only 17% of those are children. That's 30 deaths/year:

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-d...

But wait! Most of those deaths are from bee stings, domesticated dogs, and spiders. Subtracting those (but even including fatal snake bites as a "wild animal attack"), the number of such deaths drops to ~8/yr. No word on how many of those attacks are actually in a state park, but it's certainly less than half, which gives us a grand total of under 4 such deaths/yr.


RE: Your kids are our cattle of the future
By GaryJohnson on 8/3/2008 9:55:45 PM , Rating: 2
What counts as a 'sexual solicitation'? Does having someone type/say 'f*** you' count as a solicitation?


RE: Your kids are our cattle of the future
By killerroach on 8/4/2008 8:21:48 AM , Rating: 2
Well, in addition to that, (not saying it makes it much better) what's the age distribution of said recipients of solicitation? It goes without saying that the Internet habits of a 17-year-old are probably different than a 13-year-old, and are probably the largest group of recipients of solicitation (which, while annoying, wouldn't be illegal in most states if the solicitation was accepted and acted upon). While it's nothing that will make parents feel any better, it should be considered when making policy based off of those feelings.


By GaryJohnson on 8/4/2008 9:41:31 AM , Rating: 2
The report actually mentions that 43% of the solicitations came from minors. That's why I was thinking 'FU' might be getting counted.

If that's the case, then some of us may have recently solicited some minors in <insert online game name here>.

The number that should really be in question is how many minors were solicited by actual predators who would act upon their solicitations?


By triz on 8/3/2008 9:58:36 PM , Rating: 2
How many kids are killed each year by online predators they met online at the library?!


The average MySpace page...
By Cullinaire on 8/3/2008 9:11:01 PM , Rating: 2
With the passage of this bill, libraries across the nation are poised to save millions on electricity by sparing the computers the added stress of rendering the average MySpace page. Those animated backgrounds, 3 simultaneous music videos, and the obligatory mp3-of-the-day don't come cheap!




RE: The average MySpace page...
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 9:52:44 PM , Rating: 2
Wow that's a lot o.O
Yeah, it's sad but true... the typical MySpace page is really obnoxious...

On a side note, I'm really dazzled by how quickly broadband speeds have been adopted:
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0807/

Maybe all that demand will create better and cheaper service at some point!


By GaryJohnson on 8/3/2008 9:57:50 PM , Rating: 2
So the web designers/devlopers among us should build more bloated websites to help push the deployment of faster consumer internet services!


Pardon Me If I'm Wrong...
By Dasickninja on 8/4/2008 10:29:08 AM , Rating: 2
But I thought you went to school to learn. Not to engage in any, "social networking" that couldn't be accomplished by simply talking to someone. I don't see this as anymore outrageous as these sites being banned at work. They frankly don't have anything to do with the learning process and are more of a distraction than anything else.




By livelouddiefast on 8/4/2008 9:52:43 PM , Rating: 2
They can be used for wasting time, so can a lot of other things. You could 'just talk' to someone else, but that consumes 'a lot'(relatively speaking) of your time and theirs. i.e. You have a meeting (school, work, social), you select the names of the invitees, you click one button and they can all see the same info about the event. Much quicker than calling everyone, and they can just as easily ignore the invite.

Labeling those sites as doing nothing but wasting time is the issue (and that whole 'protecting our children' garbage). Social networking sites may very well be the future (think long term) of all forums, online learning (including job training), event planning, shopping- the possibilities are almost limitless. We're seeing a lot of those things happen on a small scale, but the more integrated those sites become, the more innovations developers can come up with in order for them to work for productive purposes.

Presently, we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of what social networking is capable of. The future is going to be scary and perilous, but i think it will eventually be fantastic how much information we can gather in such a quick amount of time through those sites.


What about wi-fi
By tspinning on 8/5/2008 10:54:53 AM , Rating: 2
So if your public library offers wi-fi and you bring your own laptop is that too blocked? Or are we talking about filtering content delivered to a subnet where the library's own computers are on? These are real questions that I'm sure our policy makers can't understand or fathom and thus, baby+bathwater again...

Seems like they might be overshooting this whole issue- also, what about using a proxy server, or the library computer to connect to logmein where I then surf the net from my own home computer?

Should we disable access to remote admin tools, I for one would be sad as I've used a library while on vacation to fix a few user issues back at the office when I didn't bring a laptop around with me for the day.

And please, goto or logmein from cell phone/smartphone is horrible, don't go there with me as I've used the Treo for mobile support too while hiking in the Green Mountains and Maine's wilderness and I've unlocked and assisted users, but the library was much quicker and easier.




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