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Print 39 comment(s) - last by Reclaimer77.. on Nov 7 at 1:14 PM

This is compared to October 2012's sales of 2,961

Chevrolet's Volt saw a dip in sales for the month of October, but it better watch its back as Nissan's Leaf creeps up behind.

According to The Detroit News, General Motors (GM) saw a 32 percent decrease in Volt sales for the month of October 2013 compared to October 2012. 

The drop sent sales from 2,961 Volt sales in October 2012 to 2,022 last month. For the year overall, Volt sales are down 2.7 percent to 18,782. 

Why the drop? According to Edmunds.com senior analyst Michelle Krebs, gas prices are continuing to fall and traditional gas-powered vehicles are achieving 40 MPG and higher, meaning that some consumers don't see the need for electric vehicles. 


But other EVs seem to be doing just fine despite competition from gas vehicles. Nissan's all-electric Leaf, for instance, saw a 27 percent increase in October sales to 2,002. The Leaf's year-to-date sales are up 167 percent to 18,078 -- right on the Volt's tail. 

Nissan has made some enticing offers for the Leaf this year as a way to increase sales. For instance, it cut the Leaf's base model price more than $6,000 to $28,800 back in January. It also dropped lease prices for the Leaf in an attempt to get more of them on the road. 

Since then, it has addressed issues like batteries overheating by testing a new Leaf battery with a different lithium-ion cell chemistry meant to handle heat (the tests are putting the batteries in sustained internal temperatures of 45 degrees Celsius (113 degrees Fahrenheit), and if all goes well, they'll be available in April 2014) and offering Leaf customers free charging for one year in Texas starting October 1 (it's due to spread to other states over time). 

The Volt saw a price drop recently to spur sales as well. In August, GM reported that it would cut $5,000 from the base MSRP of the Chevrolet Volt. As a result, the new price of entry for the plug-in is $34,995. Of course, this still makes it more expensive than the Leaf. 

Source: The Detroit News



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Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By spamreader1 on 11/4/2013 4:43:07 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry just struck me as odd, maybe I fell off the wagon again.




By Manch on 11/4/2013 4:48:11 PM , Rating: 1
In the vein of overpriced government subsidized econo boxes....Yeah they're competitors.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Reclaimer77 on 11/4/2013 5:10:14 PM , Rating: 2
Not really.

The Leaf is an electric vehicle.

The Volt is a plug-in hybrid that idiots believe is an electric vehicle.

Also I'm not buying the idea that such a massive drop in sales can be attributed to gas prices. My theory? Like half of all Volt sales have been from State and Federal Government's, and Obama cronies like General Electric. Now that the majority of sales coming from public sources are over with, these new sales numbers represents the true private owner demand for the Volt. I.E terrible.


By Jaybus on 11/5/2013 7:27:57 AM , Rating: 2
Probably both. A Ford Fiesta ecoboost is pretty cheap to operate and without the range anxiety.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By troysavary on 11/5/2013 7:34:28 AM , Rating: 2
How is it not an electric vehicle? Most people can do their daily driving on battery alone. The gas engine only comes on as a range extender.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Reclaimer77 on 11/5/2013 8:27:26 AM , Rating: 2
By that definition hybrids don't exist, they've been "electric cars" the whole time.

My car is a gravity drive car...I only need the gas engine when I'm not rolling downhill. Lol come on, the Volt is not an electric vehicle. Its a plugin hybrid.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 9:24:48 AM , Rating: 2
You need to learn the difference between serial and parallel hybrids.

And yes, I know the Volt sometimes works as a parallel hybrid, but my guess would be that in 95-99% of the time it is working in serial mode.

Also, the official denomination is EREV.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Nutzo on 11/5/2013 10:49:10 AM , Rating: 2
Actually you need to learn the difference between serial and parallel hybrids.

The Volt is NOT a serial hybrid, because it allows the ICE (motor) to conenct directly to the wheel. That makes it a parallel hybrid.
A serial hybrid has no direct connection between the ICE and the wheels, the ICE is only used to charge the battery.

The Volt is a plug-in Hybrid with a large battery and strong electric motor. A battery that is large enough, and the electric motor strong emough that many people can drive in full electric mode most the time. That still doesn't change the fact that the ICE can drive the wheels directly, which means it's a Hybrid.

The new Honda Accord Hybrid actually runs as a serial hybrid during city driving (there is no connection between the ICE and the wheels at lower speeds, the ICE drives a generator which charges the battery that then runs the electic motor), and runs as a parallel Hybrid for freeway driving. Does that make it a Hybrid-Hybrid?


By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 12:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
As I said on my post: The Volt works 95-99% of the time as a SERIAL hybrid, which means only the electric motors are turning the wheels, with the ICE either turned off or only charging the battery.

Only in extreme situations the engine actually connects to the wheels. For instance if the battery charge is low and you are on a steep hill. On THOSE situations it works as a parallel hybrid, just as I stated in my post.

The Accord Hybrid is a little bit different than everything else in the market, and it can be driven in three modes: EV Drive (which is 100 percent electric motor), Hybrid Drive (electric motor with the gasoline engine driving a generator motor used for generating electricity for the electric motor) and Engine Drive (gasoline engine only). The difference compared to the Volt is that on the Accord the ICE turns the wheels by itself, which doesn't happen on the Volt.


By alpha754293 on 11/5/2013 2:09:12 PM , Rating: 2
DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed here are solely that of my own and are not representative of Ford Motor Company or its affiliates.

Correction - the official EPA classification is a plug-in hybrid.

The SAE also classifies the Volt as a plug-in hybrid.

GM can call it whatever it wants, but it carries no weight because neither the Society of Automotive Engineers nor the Environmental Protection Agency agree with its semantics. Besides, the SAE/EPA also don't really make much of a distinction when classifying vehicles as whether they're series or parallel (or series-parallel) hybrids. As far they're concerned, if it gets it's energy from two sources, it's a hybrid. If you can plug it in (on top of that), it's a plug-in hybrid. Period.

The European Union 2007/46/EC also states: "‘hybrid electric vehicle’ means a hybrid vehicle that, for the purpose of mechanical propulsion, draws energy from both of the following on-vehicle sources of stored energy/power:
— a consumable fuel,
— an electrical energy/power storage device (e.g. battery,
capacitor, flywheel/generator, etc.);" (OJ L 263, 09.10.2007, p.5)

Source: www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/phevsbs.shtml


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By troysavary on 11/5/2013 1:46:32 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, it doesn't matter what subject you speak about, you manage to be completely wrong. At least you are consistent. When most people call the Volt an electric, they mean it can operate completely in electric mode, without switching to the ICE. When most people say hybrid, they mean like the Prius, with the ICE running the whole time driving. You want to call battery only driving with an ICE as a range extender a mere hybrid, all the power to you. Just do not expect most people to agree with you.


By Reclaimer77 on 11/6/2013 12:31:15 AM , Rating: 2
Hey dumbass:

quote:
Correction - the official EPA classification is a plug-in hybrid. The SAE also classifies the Volt as a plug-in hybrid. GM can call it whatever it wants, but it carries no weight because neither the Society of Automotive Engineers nor the Environmental Protection Agency agree with its semantics. Besides, the SAE/EPA also don't really make much of a distinction when classifying vehicles as whether they're series or parallel (or series-parallel) hybrids. As far they're concerned, if it gets it's energy from two sources, it's a hybrid. If you can plug it in (on top of that), it's a plug-in hybrid. Period.

The European Union 2007/46/EC also states: "‘hybrid electric vehicle’ means a hybrid vehicle that, for the purpose of mechanical propulsion, draws energy from both of the following on-vehicle sources of stored energy/power: — a consumable fuel, — an electrical energy/power storage device (e.g. battery, capacitor, flywheel/generator, etc.);" (OJ L 263, 09.10.2007, p.5)

Source: www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/phevsbs.shtml


Once again you put your goddamn foot in your mouth in order to troll me. The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, you're wrong, hit the bricks!


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By plug1n volt on 11/5/2013 9:28:18 AM , Rating: 2
It most definitely is an electric car. I treat my Chevy Volt as pure EV. I have driven over 29,000 miles and counting without switching over to gas.

The last time my range extender kicked in was 5/23/2012.

http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/371#achieve...


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 12:17:31 PM , Rating: 2
Has the engine automatically burnt out all the gas as it should?


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By plug1n volt on 11/6/2013 8:25:08 AM , Rating: 2
Every 6 weeks the engine will turn on and will burn some gas, around 0.04 gallons on average. I've had 14 of these.

The Volt monitors the age of the gasoline in the tank. Back in June I received a message that I needed to burn off the gasoline. I had a full tank and most of the gas was from the dealer so I let the car run and burn off the entire tank until it was actually out of gas. I then filled-up with the minimum to turn off the fuel maintenance which was 1.2 gallons. This way in another year I will have very little to burn off. You can just add gasoline to the existing gas, but that will simply average the age of the gas. By having an empty tank, I will get a full year with the new gas.

This did kill my MPG as it dropped from 6,000 to 2,000. Of course MPG is really a meaningless number in the Volt when it is driven almost purely on electric.

http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/371


By lelias2k on 11/6/2013 3:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
Glad to hear it worked flawlessly!

I was a specialist at a Chevy dealership until 6 months after the vehicle was launched, then I moved on to greener pastures. But I'm still a fan. :)


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Dr of crap on 11/5/2013 12:30:53 PM , Rating: 2
Just try to imagine what that unused gas is doing. Over a year and a half gumming itself up, ect...
You'd better "use" some of that gas before you get into something bad. AND add some fuel stabilizer.


By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 12:35:58 PM , Rating: 2
The Volt actually knows when you last filled the tank and should burn out all the gas before 12 months of storage. Hence my question above to see if actually worked as advertised. :)

That's also the reason why GM recommends premium fuel: it lasts longer in the tank.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Reclaimer77 on 11/6/2013 12:35:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I treat my Chevy Volt as pure EV. I have driven over 29,000 miles and counting without switching over to gas.


Who cares? How you use something is irrelevant! The Volt is a plug in hybrid with a larger battery, it's NOT an electric vehicle. It's classified as a hybrid.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By plug1n volt on 11/6/2013 8:29:53 AM , Rating: 2
The official term for the Chevy Volt is EREV which stands for "Extended Range Electric Vehicle"

Terms are pretty meaningless, it is the results that are important. I buy 1.2 gallons of gas per year and drive 20,000 miles or so. In my eyes it is an electric vehicle and I treat it as such.

When people think of a hybrid they think of a Prius which uses gasoline. I do not use gasoline except to maintain the engine every 6 weeks.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By Reclaimer77 on 11/6/2013 4:44:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The official term for the Chevy Volt is EREV which stands for "Extended Range Electric Vehicle"


That's something Chevy just made up. So what?

They can call it a Flying Spaghetti Monster, I don't care, that doesn't change what it is.

quote:
I buy 1.2 gallons of gas per year


That's 1.2 gallons more than an electric vehicle can use.


RE: Are the Leaf and Volt competing products?
By flyingpants1 on 11/7/2013 7:55:45 AM , Rating: 2
Jesus, you are insane.


By Reclaimer77 on 11/7/2013 1:14:14 PM , Rating: 2
Its insane to realize cars that burn gas aren't electric vehicles lol. OK!


By alpha754293 on 11/5/2013 2:44:44 PM , Rating: 2
DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed here are solely that of my own and are not representative of Ford Motor Company or its affiliates.

Classification isn't based on intent or specific design of operation. It's based on what's in the vehicle at the time of manufacture.

The legal framework of the European Union and it's various councils (such as the EEC or the EC) actually spells it out somewhat explicitly, especially in their newest type-approval framework directive 2007/46/EC which effectively covers all on-road vehicles, regardless of their means of propulsion.

The implication of this framework means that unless a vehicle is powered STRICTLY by electricity ONLY, and it does not obtain its energy from any other sources; then, and ONLY then can it be called an electric vehicle. ANY augmented system (whether it's petrol/electric, diesel/electric, hydrogen/electric, CNG/electric, or LPG/electric, etc...), by the regulatory framework; it's a hybrid.

The definition that's spelled out in Title 40, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 86 states: "Electric vehicle means any vehicle which operates solely by use of a battery
or battery pack. This definition also includes vehicles which are powered mainly through the use of an electric
battery or battery pack, but which use a flywheel that stores energy produced by the electric motor or through
regenerative braking to assist in vehicle operation."
(40CFR86.1702-99, p.270, 7-1-12 Edition)

and "Hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) means any vehicle which is included in the definition of a ‘‘series hybrid electric
vehicle,’’ a ‘‘parallel hybrid electric vehicle,’’ or a ‘‘battery assisted combustion engine vehicle.’’" (ibid.)

and "Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) means a hybrid electric vehicle that has the capability to charge the battery from an off-vehicle electric source, such that the off-vehicle source cannot be connected to the vehicle while the vehicle is in motion." (40CFR86.1803-01, p.340, 7-1-12 Edition)

Therefore; the Volt is a plug-in hybrid. (And just cuz most people CAN do their daily driving on battery alone does NOT make it an EV.) The only way that you can actually call it an EV (officially) is for it to be recognized by the respective regulations/legislations that allow you to sell the vehicle in the first place. Otherwise, you can call it a magic carpet for all I care; and just cuz you call it such, doesn't necessarily make it such. (In fact, you almost don't use the official terminology that's recognized by the various authoritive bodies because often times, I presume it's because they don't like those terms. But they are what they are. And unless you're going to petition the EU/EPA to change the names (which, if you do that, they can be like "sure, we'll change the name. But we're also going to change 150 other things that's now going to make more work for you, so...here you go."), it doesn't matter what YOU call it. It's what THEY call it. And you have to play by their regulatory rules (since they have the power to stop you from selling it or causing a LOT of grief, heartache/heartburn for you). And it'll likely hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt them if they put you in a stop-sell condition, since GM/Chevy's in the business of selling cars. Pick the fights that need fighting.


You want to sell Volts?
By StormyKnight on 11/4/2013 10:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
Then price them the same as a Cruze. The greenies will flood the dealerships and the back inventory will vanish in less than a week.




RE: You want to sell Volts?
By Mint on 11/5/2013 12:22:09 AM , Rating: 5
GM hurt the image of the Volt with its initial pricing. People still think it's grossly overpriced even after tax credit, despite the recent $5k price cut.

A Cruze Eco auto costs $21,130. Right now the Volt is $26,700 after tax credit and:
-better equipped than the Cruze
-is the most reliable Chevy according to Consumer Reports
-will have much higher resale value than the Cruze
-saves you a gallon of gas a day.

If your state has an incentive, you'd be silly to get a Cruze Eco over a Volt unless you need the fifth seat or can't charge overnight.


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By troysavary on 11/5/2013 7:38:28 AM , Rating: 2
I can't get either. I have 4 kids, so a minivan is the most practical vehicle for me. I work from home, so a gas sipping or electric daily driver isn't really needed. But if I were driving to work every day, the Volt would be a tempting option.


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By Dr of crap on 11/5/2013 12:32:51 PM , Rating: 2
Wait so you say my 2005 Malibu should be traded in for a Volt?? I don't make any payments NOW, why would I start!


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 12:39:50 PM , Rating: 2
If you think like that, NO CAR in the market makes sense to you. :)


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By TSS on 11/5/2013 1:06:34 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not suprised it's the most reliable chevy. I want to point out when it was first introduced it cost GM around $80,000 to make each car. Even at the full introduction price of $40,000 it would've been an amazing deal.

At $26,700 it's the best value for money car you can buy, especially since GM is still losing alot of money on each car. You'd be crazy not to get it. Infact if it wasn't for the government taking over GM it probably wouldn't exist anymore and they'd gone ahead with their original plan.

Which was to sell the volt at a loss, get the engineering side down, then make a 2nd car much closer to breaking even, then possibly a 3rd car for profit. Yknow more or less like Tesla did it.

I really wonder where that "next volt" is.


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By Mint on 11/5/2013 3:10:11 PM , Rating: 2
It never cost them that much per car. I'm sure the Volt always had good gross margins. All those reports were anti-EV nonsense spreading development costs onto cumulative sales at the time. First it was $250k/car, then $80k/car, then $50k/car...

But yeah, EVs are innately reliable, and PHEVs only put maybe 1/4 of mileage on the gas engine, so they should be reliability also. If a 5 yr old car had only 20k miles on the ICE, you'd expect it to be in pretty good shape. Having a fixed ratio transmission should help reliability too.


RE: You want to sell Volts?
By plug1n volt on 11/6/2013 8:35:35 AM , Rating: 2
Also the same technology that went into the Volt is now in the Spark EV and the soon to be released Cadillac ELR.

Here is a good article describing the fallacy of the $250K Volt.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11354404/1/setting-...


Cheap is the reality
By foxalopex on 11/5/2013 11:08:06 AM , Rating: 2
Cheap sells sadly. As much as I would like to believe folks care about the environment and each other. I tend to suspect that folks would kill each other and burn the environment if they could save money.

That said, I do own a Chevy Volt myself. It's a very nice car. For folks that argue that it's not a true EV and a Prius? Try driving 30-40 miles everyday without visiting the gas station for 5 months in a Prius. I'll bet you probably can't pull that off. The Volt is an EV for any short range trip where you would normally use about a gallon of gas. It only turns into a hybrid on long distance trips. It's ability to use either is what makes it shine as a car, and unfortunately why it costs a bit more.

Compare that to Leaf which can't be used in long distance trips realistically. Where costs were cut because they ditched liquid cooling in the battery causing some owners to experience massive permanent battery losses if you live in warm climates. Sadly, they still haven't fixed this issue but are busy "testing" a fix.

Even the Telsa S despite being a lot faster, can't go cross country because in Canada Superchargers don't really exist.

So yes the Volt costs more, but there are good reasons why it does. There's no pure EV that works in so many places as it does but the reality is, people prefer cheap over ability so I'm not surprised.




RE: Cheap is the reality
By lelias2k on 11/5/2013 12:25:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I tend to suspect that folks would kill each other and burn the environment if they could save money.


That is exactly what corporations are doing. They never stopped and probably never will, unless the population demands it. But with the lack of education, when will that happen?

An uneducated citizen is much easier to control.


RE: Cheap is the reality
By josh_b on 11/5/2013 12:38:58 PM , Rating: 2
"Even the Telsa S despite being a lot faster, can't go cross country because in Canada Superchargers don't really exist."

There are many high-speed L2 chargers across the country. FYI I don't have any affiliation with them, but Sun Country has already made a huge dent in terms of charging infrastructure:

https://suncountryhighway.ca/worlds-longest-greene...

Additionally many hotels in Canada are installing 70-80A/208V chargers. They'll take a Model S from completely depleted to a range mode charge in under 4 hours.

It is possible to travel across many parts of Canada in an EV.


RE: Cheap is the reality
By Mint on 11/5/2013 3:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
That's really cool, but that network doesn't charge fast enough to take away the advantages of the Volt. 20kW will have you charging 1 hour for every 1 hour of driving. A Model S will make that 4h/4h, which isn't really any better.


These hybrids and electrics...
By Spookster on 11/6/2013 5:42:02 PM , Rating: 2
will be useless when the zombie apocalypse hits. Just sayin...

Now if they could invent a car that runs on zombie guts then we might have a winner.




By flyingpants1 on 11/7/2013 7:52:57 AM , Rating: 2
It's actually the exact opposite.. Google "tesla zombie apocalypse".


Platform
By btc909 on 11/5/2013 7:30:56 PM , Rating: 2
The Platform choice (Delta II) was the biggest F'Up.




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