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Chevrolet Volt  (Source: auto-car-news.com)

Nissan Leaf  (Source: japanesesportcars.com)
The Volt even surpassed the Nissan Leaf in October sales, but the Leaf is ahead for the year overall

General Motors Co. has announced October as the best-ever sales month for its extended-range electric Chevrolet Volt, which has been struggling to beat 2011 sales targets as well as Nissan Leaf sales.

The extended-range electric Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in electric hybrid vehicle that has an EPA-rated electric range of 35 miles. It then switches to a gasoline engine. The 2011 Volt started at $41,000 and the 2012 base model price is set for $39,995. The Nissan Leaf, on the other hand, is all-electric with an EPA-rated 73 miles per charge. The 2011 base model sold for $32,780 while the 2012 is set for $35,200.

According to GM, it sold 1,108 Volts in October. This is a hefty increase from September, where GM only reported 723 Volt sales. This also brings GM closer to its 2011 sales goal, which is 10,000 Volts sold for the whole year. It also plans to export 6,000 Volts.

In addition, this is the first time the Volt outsold the Nissan Leaf since April, which only had 849 sales in October. The Nissan Leaf is still ahead overall for the year though, with 8,048 Leafs sold from January through October while GM has sold 5,003 Volts during the same period of time.

While October was looking good for GM's Volt, it still has a long, hard road ahead in order to meet its 2011 goals. According to The Detroit News, GM must sell 2,500 Volts per month for the last two months of 2011 in order to meet the 10,000 mark.

GM, however, remains confident that it can meet this goal. It said it has added 200 additional Volt dealers, totaling to 2,200 nationwide in 27 states. By the end of 2011, GM hopes to have 2,400 dealers in all 50 states.

"I'm going to keep pushing," said Don Johnson, GM vice president for sales.

Nissan predicts that it will meet 10,000 Leaf sales in the U.S. by the first week of 2012.

Source: The Detroit News



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declining returns on publicity
By magreen on 11/2/2011 10:23:51 AM , Rating: 5
The problem with meeting those increased monthly targets through the end of 2011 is the declining returns on increased publicity. You'd have to quadruple PR to double the number of Volts sold.

Specifically, we all know that voltage V = I*R
and P = V * I
Replacing I with V/R, we get P = V^2 / R

solving for V, we get V = sqrt(PR)

and we see the number of Volts sold only increases as the square root of PR.




By theapparition on 11/2/2011 10:34:42 AM , Rating: 3
You get some creativity points. Here's a cookie.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By protosv on 11/2/2011 11:01:29 AM , Rating: 2
I see what you did there. One nerd point for you Sir.


By SpaceJumper on 11/2/2011 1:33:59 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like 4 times the battery capacity, where R = 1 and P = 4.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Hiawa23 on 11/2/2011 2:25:38 PM , Rating: 3
So the Volt goes 35 miles on a charge, then switches to gas, so does the gas recharge the electric motor or does it run on gas from that point forward? How big is the gas tank, & how many more miles can the car go on gas alone.

I will use my 2.4L 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart as reference. I drive 60 miles a day roundtrip to work. It gets about 255-270 per tank, but holds no more than 10-11 gallon unless totally empty. I have to fill it up 5 times a month, my gas bill ranges anywhere from $150-180/mo, so I am just wondering, what is the total miles the Volt can go per tank, per 1 charge + gas? The Leaf is as ugly as the Prius, but the Volt has atleast an attractive body style that may appeal to me int he future.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Keeir on 11/2/2011 2:48:53 PM , Rating: 4
Past 35 miles, the Volt will use gasoline to generate electricity. The Battery will act as a buffer. Sometimes the Volt will use gasoline to directly power the wheels and use some electricity from the battery to also power the the wheels. It gets kind of confusing.

The Volt overall has ~300-350 mile range depending on how you use it. If your talking 70+ freeway travel, then its likely closer to 300.

Since you drive 60 miles a day minimum, the Volt is not really a good choice for you. At best your looking at 60% electric... and given errand running, long trips, etc you will probably hit the 50% point. Better off with a Prius or one of the new "40" MPG compacts.

Volt works best for people whoose most often daily driving distance is between 25-50.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Shig on 11/2/2011 3:30:33 PM , Rating: 2
The Opel Ampera also has to be taken into account when we discuss the amount sold. They both get made in Detroit and the European demand figures are as high or higher than the US and North America. (10,000+ is their goal for Europe)

It sucks for Europeans though, the Ampera is 22,000$ more than the volt!

Now just imagine if you lived in Germany and had access to cheap installed solar power with a Feed in Tariff (most do), their government is effectively paying you to drive it (well short trips).


RE: declining returns on publicity
By lelias2k on 11/3/2011 6:49:02 AM , Rating: 4
I respectfully disagree, in part. :)

I worked in a Chevy dealer and was one of the Volt specialists. Most of our customers were reporting 40-50 miles on electricity alone, and that's in San Diego, where freeway driving is practically the norm.

Funny thing is that if you drive more city, you might end up getting more mileage on electricity because of regeneration.

Also, if you check forums around the net, many owners are reporting doing 50-60 miles. Just for comparison, on Leaf forums you see many complaining that they are getting only 60-75 miles.

So in fact one can argue that the Volt might even be able to do his whole daily commute on a charge, and that would turn the table considerably.

Last, but not least, go drive a Volt. It is a completely different experience than a Prius. It's a great handling car, with abundance in torque all the time. We had a loaded 2011 Prius in our used car lot. The same uphill stretch of highway where the Volt would reach 85 mph in a snap (and whisper quiet), the Prius would "scream" to reach 75 mph.

Given me the option, I would never buy a Prius over a Volt, but as I always say: different people, different cars. Go drive them before you make a decision.

I dare to say that many of the naysayers we see here in this website bashing alternative energy have never actually tested all the vehicles out there.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Gurthang on 11/3/2011 11:50:00 AM , Rating: 1
You realize a Prius and the Volt are not the same kind of hybrid. And saying a fully charged Volt under load was silent while the Prius "screamed" is silly and sounds like you are a shill for the Volt.

I have not driven a Volt so I can't speak to its performance versus a 2011 Prius but I can say that until the price tag reaches a reasonable value for the features I want in a car the Volt will not get my money.

And chances are by the time battery tech is good enough to make a nicely equiped Volt design cost $30k out the door pure electrics will be far more viable and likely squeeze plug-in hybrids out of the market.

Don't get me wrong, the Volt is a good test bed and I suspect technology developed for it will be carried into may other future vehicles. But the price is too much and the tech inside of it too young to even tempt me into purchasing one.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By m51 on 11/3/2011 10:27:31 PM , Rating: 2
He was comparing the driving experience of the two cars, a valid comparison no matter the technology under the hood.

The current high price of the Volt is certainly slowing down it's sales, which is unfortunate because I believe PHEVs are the direction we should be going. As an engineer the more I have looked at the Volt design the more impressed I am with the technical elegance of the drive train design.

I don't think pure electric vehicles will have a significant market share for many years. There are two major problems with it being widely adopted into the market place. One is the cost of the batteries, to put enough batteries in the car to get a driving range sufficient to not be restrictive to people prices the car out of the major market. Also in an effort to achieve maximum range on limited battery capacity many costly compromises have to be made to increase efficiency, at the cost of driver comfort, capacity, and so on. If the vehicle is too costly and only a tiny fraction of the vehicles on the road are electric it will have no positive impact on oil usage, the environment, or the economy.

The other is the lack of a widespread recharging hookups for recharging and the grid improvements that it would require. This is a major infrastructure cost with a chicken and egg problem of not wanting to build the chargers because there are no electric cars and not wanting build electric cars because there are no chargers.

The PHEV like the Volt has neither of these problems. By restricting the electric only driving range one can reduce the total battery capacity required, thus reducing the cost of the vehicle to the point where it's broadly affordable. As battery technology improves and costs come down you can increase the battery range accordingly. The only charging infrastructure needed is at the home of the owner of the PHEV. For longer distance trips the PHEV makes use of the already existing gas stations and fuel distribution infrastructure.

It's the perfect transition approach to moving away from fossil fuels. Jumping directly to all electric has too high of an economic barrier.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Gurthang on 11/4/2011 8:32:35 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, my issue with his comparison is that it is a half truth. Yes with the Volt in the unrestricted "sport mode" and while it still has enough juice in the batteries it is quieter and has great get up and go. But driving like that you will not achieve anything like 35 miles of battery range much less the 70 he claims many real world users get. And once depleted the Volt is a "noisy" 35 mpg hybrid with acceleration about equal to the 50 mpg Prius not exactly impressive.

And apparently you missed my other point so let me reiterate it more simply. The car is too expensive right now. But by the time the technology exists to fix that it is my belief that the same infrastructure and technology will make pure EVs more attractive than plug-in hybrids outside of some markets where power requirements or longevity make it impractal.

I would also make the point gasoline engines and generators/alternators are not "free" and they have already been refined to the point where significant cost reductions
are not likely. So if we believe bettery prices will continue to drop for some time to come then at some point the cost to add range via battery will be less than they cost to add range via an ICE+generator to a plug-in hybrid. And thus make most hybrids pointless.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By m51 on 11/5/2011 10:45:30 AM , Rating: 2
Until the battery is depleted, the Volt is a very quiet and peppy car. Even after the battery is depleted it's still fairly quiet, better than the Prius. And it's still peppy. It's just a quieter and quicker car than the Prius. Pricing aside most people appear to prefer the Volt over the Prius.

Yes, I don't disagree that the car is currently priced to high to achieve significant market share. It's early days yet, the Prius was pricey when it first came out also. It's pricier but it's also a better car than the Prius. Whether that price premium is worth it or not to you is an individual call.

The technology to 'fix' it as you say is mostly in cost reductions in the batteries. Currently at around $700 Kwh the volt battery is in the $10,000 range. This is for only 35 mile range. A similar spec pure EV battery with a 210 mile range would be around $60,000. The Volt battery is very conservatively specced to insure a long life, Pure EV's like the Leaf can't afford to do that so they reduce costs by cycling the battery closer to it's maximum capacity, and by having a fairly restrictive range. This reduces longevity though. This is one place where improved battery cycle life will reduce costs by allowing operation closer to the battery's maximum capacity, thus reducing the battery capacity needed.

But battery technology improves only slowly and incrementally. Costs will drop slowly. The large batteries for Pure EV's will be very high cost items for a long time to come and will keep Pure EV prices very high.

PHEV's using 1/5 the battery of an EV at 1/5 the cost are going to reach broad market prices many years before EV's do.

The other point you keep ignoring is the lack of charging infrastructure. With A PHEV you can take advantage of chargers, but you don't need to. If you don't have an opportunity to charge the car, doesn't matter it still works fine. Go on a long trip and you'll never be stranded because you can fill up at any gas station in a couple minutes and go. Have an opportunity to charge it up? fine, you save some money and lower emissions. This eliminates one of the big problems of market acceptance that pure EV's have.

There is also the issue of grid capacity. Currently our electical grid has nothing like the capacity to support a majority of people driving EV's, PHEV's will put a much reduced load on the grid and slow down the pace of grid upgrades needed.

Engines and generators are not free, but with the current battery prices they are a minor fraction of the system cost. Yes at some point it may be cheaper to add battery to extend range, but that's not going to happen for many decades. PHEV's on the other hand are at the economic threshold of mass market penetration. And again it does not address the lack of charging infrastructure and the massive costs to build such a system, or leverage our existing fuel distribution network. PHEV's allow you to incrementally install charging only where it's most useful (the owners home) minimizing the costs. Nor do PHEV's force users to change their driving habits which will aid market acceptance. Remember people won't buy these vehicles if they are too annoying to drive.

There are many incremental steps to get from our current gasoline system to an electric system. You can't do it in one jump. PHEV's are the practical next step in that direction and will achieve significant market share many years before EV's can be affordable enough to do so.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Keeir on 11/6/2011 12:08:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I worked in a Chevy dealer and was one of the Volt specialists. Most of our customers were reporting 40-50 miles on electricity alone, and that's in San Diego, where freeway driving is practically the norm.


This is really the key. If a person is going to drive in a way to get 45 AER, than Volt works best provided your under ~65.

But I would think the majority of early adopters are more gentle drivers to start with.

In the end, the Volt makes sense if you can drive ~65% electric or more. If your less than 50% electric, the Volt starts being wasted...


RE: declining returns on publicity
By fgman on 11/2/2011 4:11:27 PM , Rating: 2
I purchased my Volt 2 months ago and have gone 1700 miles on 4 gallons so im figuiring about 2500 between fill ups. The Volt fits me perfect as my daily commute is 18 miles round trip and with a 240 volt charger in the garage i stop home plug it in and do mail and stuff and when im ready to go out its almost back up to full again. It's sporty my kids ages 23, 20 and 18 want one but at teh cost they cant afford it. aside from the cash im saving the thing i like most is not having to stand in the cold to refuel the car. i just plug it in and go in my house!!!!


RE: declining returns on publicity
By KCjoker on 11/2/2011 6:39:32 PM , Rating: 2
I'd be curious to know how much your electricity bill has increased. If you figure that in I don't think you'll be saving as much money as you seem to think you are.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By lelias2k on 11/3/2011 6:56:08 AM , Rating: 2
Sometimes — especially with new technologies, the ROI is not only calculated in dollars, but also in status, comfort, or the feeling of doing something you think is better for the future, among other things.

He/she gives a great example regarding not having to refuel in the cold. I'm sure if you ask every Volt owner they will most likely have their own particular reasons. :)


RE: declining returns on publicity
By gene1138 on 11/3/2011 9:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think you'd be saving more than you'd think. Here's what I responded to a friend that said I couldn't be saving any money by driving my Volt.

"Calculated the cost for running the car in June... $23.96. Electricity use of 140 kWh x $0.17 per kWh = $23.96 Factor in the $28.50 of gas bought in April, that adds another $9.50 for a total cost of $33.46. Your mileage may vary. :D"

Now compare that to the last full month I had my old car I spent $140 on gas having the same commute to work and driving patterns.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By RDO CA on 11/2/2011 4:37:05 PM , Rating: 2
The Volt has a 9.3 gal tank and an EPA rating of 37 MPG but most owners at about 70MPH are getting 40MPG.
The Volt gets about 40 miles on a charge and about 350 more on gas. The gas engine runs the car electrically after the batt. gets down to its lower buffer of about 20% of the total 16KWH. If put in Mountain mode it will increase the buffer to about 40% and if you are below that number it will actually charge the battery up to that point.
I have a Volt with 4400 miles and have used 2.4 gal of gas and almost a gal of that was used by the dealer preping the car.
Great car and not much forign oil used and well done. It has good pep as the electric motors have full torque at 0 rpm and alot of tech built in like the hhd/nav/onstar/etc.
It can charge with reg. 110v in about 9 hrs. or 3/4hrs. if you have 240v.
Go test drive one and I think most will be impressed.

As far as numbers sold GM is ramping up to make 60k for the 2012 cal year globably.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By Natch on 11/3/2011 8:21:16 AM , Rating: 2
So I wonder, if a person uses theirs for majority short-haul driving (thus negating the use of the gasoline engine, since they can simply plug it in to recharge), how long before they start seeing the unused gasoline in their tank start to break down, gum up, and negatively effect their fuel system?
Might be a good idea to take the car out for a long drive every so often, just to burn out some of the gasoline in the tank, and refresh it with new fuel.


RE: declining returns on publicity
By gregpet on 11/3/2011 1:14:19 PM , Rating: 2
The car keeps track of this and runs the engine occasionally to make sure the engine and gas stay in good shape. This is also one of the reasons that the car requires premium gas.


Lets see if it's sustainable
By KnightBreed on 11/2/2011 12:20:49 PM , Rating: 2
Hopefully it keeps building momentum. By all accounts it's a great car. Sporty dynamics for an electric, hybrid, whatever you want to call it. The gas cycle is quiet and well integrated with the powertrain. There is nothing wrong with the car except the price, and that's a function of the technology not the execution. But that's a HUGE problem.

Though, it boggles my mind that the Leaf is outselling the Volt overall. I guess the typical American consumer would rather have an import, even if it's uglier and is less usable.

I hope GM keeps up with the platform. It needs another generation or two to mature.




RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Dr of crap on 11/2/2011 12:49:31 PM , Rating: 1
A GREAT car? Really?

My mind is not boggled, but is troubled that you would even think this is a success story.

The fact is the number of sold cars, both Volt and Leaf, are not impressive at all. And it proves that the market for these is very small. Diesel, CNG, fuel cell, and ICE improvements are WAY better than battery power.

And don't start spewing about not using foreign oil with these cars. Over half of our oil comes from the western hemisphere. That's right Canada and Mexico. And where to you think the electricy comes from? It aint a gift from the gods. It's from coal and natural gas mostly.


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Spuke on 11/2/2011 1:58:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And don't start spewing about not using foreign oil with these cars. Over half of our oil comes from the western hemisphere.
They don't believe that because the people on TV say otherwise and they must be important because they're on TV. Right?


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Keeir on 11/2/2011 2:57:20 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
fuel cell


quote:
CNG


HAHAHAHAH. thats just stupid. Both of those are dead ends. The CNG from a consumer standpoint. Fuel Cell because it just another way to use NG or Electricity thats worse than either.

quote:
And it proves that the market for these is very small.


Errr... what part of Supply Limited is hard to understand? Both the Leaf and the Volt have waiting lists unfilled.

quote:
And don't start spewing about not using foreign oil with these cars. Over half of our oil comes from the western hemisphere.


Keep in mind that for transportation 65% is imported. So 1/2 of that is still 30%! Oh, and the Western Hemisphere also includes Venezula. Great country there. Even if 100% came from Canada, its STILL not great for our country. Not when we could use Coal and Natural Gas sourced from the US. Or better yet, pay for the construction jobs and engineering jobs required to build and operate Nuclear Plants, with a tiny silver going to buy Uranium/Thorium/etc.


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Dr of crap on 11/2/2011 3:27:21 PM , Rating: 2
HAHAHAHAHA,
And just because you like EV doesn't make them the winner.

This debate is like religion, politics, and global warming.
It's butting your head against the wall trying to change to other's view.

So you like and think the Volt will succeed.
I don't mind the Volt's look, but I do not see it as a success.

Maybe they're building them to sell the other more profitable cars the have! Because if all they had was the Volt, this company would be in trouble in no time and be asking for a govt handout.


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Keeir on 11/2/2011 4:34:13 PM , Rating: 2
When did I say electric was the winner?

There are alot of technologies that will let you get from point A to point B, including feet.

The Gasoline Powered ICE in the form of a 4 Door Car is the obvious current "winner" in the United States.

CNG... not an alternative apparently. Its been on the market for years and there has been little to no consumer response outside of fleet sales.

HFC... not on the market.

P. Hybrid... less than 5% of the market

Diesel... less than 1% of the market

S. Hybrid... 2 Models. Both less than 1 year old

Full Electric... 1 real model (leaf) + bunch of super limited models. Less than 1 year old

Its really premature to call a winner or to count out technologies that have been in the marketplace for less than 1 year.


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Dr of crap on 11/3/2011 8:56:09 AM , Rating: 2
Yet you say the Volt is a sucess???
Now I'm boggled!


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By Keeir on 11/3/2011 2:00:44 PM , Rating: 2
When did I say that?

I said it

A. To Early to Tell.

B. What level is success? I hear everyone crow over Mini Cooper as successful, but the highest selling model of theirs sells only ~20,000 a year in the US.


RE: Lets see if it's sustainable
By ianweck on 11/2/2011 5:28:24 PM , Rating: 2
Canada and Mexico are foreign.

And 100% of my electricity comes from renewable sources, no coal or NG involved. All people have to do in my area is sign up for it.


new age "thinking"?
By kattanna on 11/2/2011 12:36:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to GM, it sold 1,108 Volts in October.


if you were to take away the fact that its a plug-in hybrid type of vehicle, those numbers would represent an abysmal failure, yet here it is being presented as "success" ??

only a super high end sports car would those numbers be considered a success, and this is anything but.




RE: new age "thinking"?
By BioHazardous on 11/2/2011 1:06:20 PM , Rating: 2
Success is defined in a variety of ways. From selling 125 Volts in August to selling 1108 in October seems like a success to me. Certainly a step in the right direction to having a successful brand new series of vehicle that hasn't been produced before which also carries a hefty price tag.

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autos...

Even the top selling cars don't sell very many per month. I remember researching the Audi A3, kind of a niche car, and if I recall correctly, they were selling far less than 1000 units per month.

If sales were stagnant and inventory levels high, then you could argue that it isn't currently being successful in terms of sales.


RE: new age "thinking"?
By Spuke on 11/2/2011 1:56:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Even the top selling cars don't sell very many per month. I remember researching the Audi A3, kind of a niche car, and if I recall correctly, they were selling far less than 1000 units per month.
Huh? They don't? The top selling cars sell in excess of 10,000 cars per month (50,000 for the Ford F-Series...ummm that's a whole lot). Audi A3 is more than kind of niche, if it's only selling 1000 a month, then it's definitely a very niche product.


RE: new age "thinking"?
By Keeir on 11/2/2011 2:50:58 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
inventory levels high


Yep there is the key right there. Volt inventory levels are not high. Volt is selling as fast as they can make them pretty much.

That's "success". Sell as many as you want to make.


RE: new age "thinking"?
By Dr of crap on 11/2/2011 3:21:25 PM , Rating: 2
They don't build them fast with no demand for them and the profit at almost nill!

Don't want to big an inventory if you can't sell them!


RE: new age "thinking"?
By Keeir on 11/2/2011 4:37:16 PM , Rating: 2
Man, I doubt you have ever worked with a long supply line.

You simply can not press button and Volt/Car production jumps. A careful plan must be made months ahead of any production increases.

Right now the plan calls for the 2012 type models to move to 60,000 a year production split between Europe and the USA. Lets see if they can sell 20,000 a year in the US. Thats about the amount the Mini Cooper sells.


RE: new age "thinking"?
By Paj on 11/2/2011 1:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
It is when you consider their sales targets.

Unlike frothing internet warriors, they predicted that it would take a while to begin momentum, that launching a brand new model using hitherto unexplored technology would need to be approached tentatively, that it appeals to quite a select market, and set their sales targets accordingly.


I would rather have the Leaf
By tayb on 11/2/2011 9:30:09 PM , Rating: 2
Leaf looks a lot more promising. 100 miles on a charge will get my my daily commutes and errands. It still isn't enough range to be my only vehicle but if I was looking into a second car the Leaf would be way above the Volt. If Nissan could double or triple the range it could easily by the only vehicle I owned.




RE: I would rather have the Leaf
By gregpet on 11/3/2011 1:23:29 PM , Rating: 3
Chevrolet thanks you for proving them right...

quote:
It still isn't enough range to be my only vehicle but


The entire point of the Volt is that you don't need a second car. You drive the Volt ALL ELECTRIC for typical daily usage then when you want to go on a longer trip the gas generator kicks in. The Volt is a REAL car - not a golf cart like the Nissan (and American made and engineered by the way).

Your Nissan Leaf with a 300 mile range would weigh 5,000 pounds, take 24 hours to charge and cost about $60,000+.


the new success
By DockScience on 11/4/2011 1:46:42 AM , Rating: 3
whoa... 1100 cars/month is the new success.

Amazing how good things can look if you set your expectations low enough.

Hey, we are down to 397,000 newly unemployed!! Whooppee.
That's SO much better than the 400,000 last month.

Let's break out someone else's credit card and order champaign.




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