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16 countries recommended for U.S. government watchdogs against digital piracy

The International Intellectual Property Alliance (IIPA), a coalition representing copyright-based industries such as the MPAA, RIAA, BSA and the ESA, submitted its recommendations to the Bush administration in its “Special 301” review of copyright piracy and market access problems around the world.

As they have in past years, China and Russia remain key problem countries, but most surprising to some are the new additions the coalition is targeting for 2007. IIPA recommends that an additional 14 countries be placed on the “Priority Watch List,” joining China and Russia for a total of 16 countries.

“Many of the key markets around the world that are infected with high levels of copyright piracy or deny effective market access to copyright industries,” said Eric H. Smith of the IIPA. “The unwillingness of the countries identified in our submission to curb high rates of piracy – in most countries, through more effective and deterrent enforcement – saps the U.S. economy of the high-paying jobs and strong growth rates that make this sector critical to the health of the U.S. economy.”

Canada is targeted as one of the biggest offenders out of all developed nations. “Canada’s long tenure on the USTR Watch List seems to have had no discernible effect on its copyright policy. Almost alone among developed economies in the OECD, Canada has taken no steps toward modernizing its copyright law to meet the new global minimum standards of the WIPO Internet Treaties,” the IIPA wrote in its filing to U.S. Trade Representative Susan Schwab. “Its enforcement record also falls far short of what should be expected of our neighbor and largest trading partner … Canada lacks effective border controls on pirated products, and most of its other enforcement efforts suffer from insufficient resources and a lack of deterrent impact.”

The report states that pirates have taken advantage of the gaps in Canadian law to make it a “leading exporter” of camcorder bootleg movies and modchips for video game consoles. Officials at Industry Canada did not comment directly on the report, but spokesman David Dummer did say to the Globe and Mail, “The government of Canada is working actively on the copyright file and will take the time necessary to ensure that revisions to this important framework legislation have been fully thought through.”

The IIPA indicated that the new Canadian Conservative government that took office in March 2006 has expressed greater commitment to modernization of Canada’s copyright laws than did the previous Liberal rule, but to date it has not released a draft of legislation.

Steering its attentions from north to south of the U.S., the IIPA also lists Mexico as the other sore spot in North America. Out of all estimated total trade losses due to piracy, Mexico ranked only behind China and Russia, making it the third highest on the priority watch list. Mexico’s estimated $1 billion lost is less than half of the losses from China and Russia, but is almost double of Canada’s fourth place $551 million.

“The sheer dimension of the piracy problem in the Mexican market remains severe. Piracy involving hard goods, optical discs, Internet piracy, street piracy, and unauthorized photocopying at universities continued at high levels,” the IIPA wrote.

The IIPA suggests that Mexico must focus efforts to fight piracy in well-know street markets (San Juan de Dios in Guadalajara) and distribution centers (such as like Tepito in the Federal District) where vast quantities of pirated goods are sold in broad daylight. Other recommendations include: increased resources for enforcement agencies and improved public awareness of the nature and repercussions of rampant piracy; intensified judicial training; stronger border measures; and stopping illegal photocopying by copy shops on or near major university campuses.

The IIPA is not only targeting countries that are inducing massive trade losses, the coalition is also putting priority on governments who do not have appropriate copyright laws in place. For example, Israel ranks near the bottom in terms of total losses at $98 million, but is on the priority list because of the IIPA’s dissatisfaction with a copyright bill passed by the Knesset, the Israeli government’s legislative body.

“The bill, if passed in its current language, would discriminate against foreign producers of sound recordings specifically, and potentially violate Israel’s bilateral obligations to the United States. The government of Israel should refrain from taking any steps that would weaken copyright protection, particularly for foreign sound recordings, at a time when copyright protection is increasingly fragile in Israel,” filed the IIPA.

The IIPA finds that the bill draft does not include provisions to protect against circumvention of technological protection measures used to protect digital artistic works and should be rejected by the Knesset. The IIPA also complains that the Israeli police “are not actively pursuing Internet piracy cases and are not willing to assist in the raiding of Internet pirates.”

Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Egypt, India, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine and Venezuela are the other countries named in the IIPA’s Priority Watch List.



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i probem with how international pricing works
By Papa Lorenzo on 2/16/2007 3:12:15 AM , Rating: 5
i live in israel and yes, there is a piracy problem here.
however, there is no way to solve this problem until the big firms understand that they must charge different in some places.
the minimum wage in israel is less then $1000US a month.
the average wage is less then $2000 a month.
software and other products are priced in israel as if we are earning like western europians or americans. to most israelis it just doesn't make any economical sense to splash out the high prices on office, windows, other utilities and especially games.
games new game can cost here between 55-75 dollars. maybe that is the same as you americans pay but for us it's a lot more money.
office can cost here more then a quarter of a minimum wage.
it's ridiculous.
if they want piracy to stop then they must figure out a new international pricing scheme which would set prices according to the countries average income/minimum wage/GDP/currency power...




By Papa Lorenzo on 2/16/2007 3:54:58 AM , Rating: 3
1st i=a


By crystal clear on 2/16/2007 4:33:38 AM , Rating: 2
"there is a piracy problem here"

Yes it exist all over the world incl the USA-whats so great about ISRAEL?-Israel is not any special case.

"to most israelis it just doesn't make any economical sense to splash out the high prices on office, windows, other "

You have the highest taxation rate in the world-sometimes
200% custom duty-"THAT DOESNT MAKE ANY ECONOMIC SENSE"
Your Income tax is one of the highest in the world-Now dont quote statistics.Add to this the VAT.

The problem is on your side (in your case)

"which would set prices according to the countries average income/minimum wage/GDP/currency power... "

Only to have cheap priced products as per your scheme-

RE-EXPORTED BACK TO THE USA & other countries for a fat profit.(on the grey/black market)

Countries should cut their taxes to make these products
affordable.










RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Tsuwamono on 2/18/2007 11:48:29 AM , Rating: 2
maybe you should take a look at Denmark's tax rate.


By GNStudios on 2/18/2007 1:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
or Swedens. My dads incometax is 56%.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Belegost on 2/16/2007 5:04:16 AM , Rating: 3
I live in the US, and I'm rather against this sort of pricing structure. So I'm going to make two points here: 1) Why many companies don't price by region 2) Why I'm against the idea.

1) Under current US copyright law, if an item is legally purchased in a foreign country, and then subsequently imported to the US, it can be resold without any restrictions from the copyright holder. There are in fact markets (the most well-known being university textbooks) that market at different price points in different regions. Taking the textbooks example, I'm a grad student at UCSD, this quarter I had to buy 2 engineering textbooks. One of the books cost $150US here in the states, however I bought the identical book from an exporter in the UK, I paid $70US after international shipping costs. Had I chose to, I could have bought a cheaper version from India (paperback, low quality printing) for $25US after shipping costs. And, under US law this is legal, and I hold full rights to the book. Of course the textbook companies do not at all appreciate this.

However, this brings me to point 2) Why should I subsidize your materials? A company has to price products so that it makes money on the sales, and if it prices it significantly lower in one region then the regions paying the higher prices are in effect paying extra to allow this. Somehow I highly doubt the book publishers could recoup the costs on a book if they sold it globally for the $8 they sell it for in India.

I call BS. Why should I pay for other people to get things for less than the true cost? Especially things like textbooks, and software which help people who I am in competition with for jobs.

Piracy has the same effect, but at least then the people doing the pirating are legally wrong.

Oh, and as for the minimum wage - here in the US the federal minimum wage is currently around $8/hour. Working a standard 40 hour week, that produces $1280/month gross income, which is then subject to federal, state, and local taxes and withholdings. It isn't as though things are so much richer here.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Sunbird on 2/16/2007 8:16:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well, the rest of the world pays more for hardware than the US. To buy a 8800GTX graphics card here (South Africa,not a typical down in the dumops african country)) costs at minimum $850 if converted to US currency. And thats the cheapest one I could find locally.

Seems it all just balances out in the end...


By Chillin1248 (blog) on 2/16/2007 9:52:23 AM , Rating: 2
To buy a 7600 GT in Israel would cost me roughly $250 after taxes, I purchased mine from the U.S. and had a friend bring it over for only $128; a big disparity. Good luck getting a 8800 GTX.

And for further amusement, Windows Vista was first launched in Israel; however ironically it did not come with Hebrew supported.

Cars here in Israel carry a roughly 89% or more tax rate, that without the import costs and custom taxes. So a car that costs maybe $12,000 in America would cost here roughly $36,000. Gas here is also double the U.S. So directly comparing wages is not the same as comparing living costs. Also the wages are taxed :)

-------
Chillin


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Tsuwamono on 2/18/2007 11:52:09 AM , Rating: 2
where do your taxes go anyway? In canada our sales tax is 15% for most provinces but go as low as 7 in Alberta. However we have social programs like public health care, VASTLY reduced tuition costs and things like welfare, get back to work programs, government retirement plans etc.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Russell on 2/19/2007 5:06:28 AM , Rating: 2
Their taxes go to the same place US taxes go: towards weapons.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/19/2007 8:20:44 AM , Rating: 3
> "Their taxes go to the same place US taxes go: towards weapons..."

Do people really misunderstand their own government budget this badly? The largest component by far of both the US and Canadian budgets is entitlement and wealth redistribution programs-- not the military.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Some1ne on 2/16/2007 6:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Piracy has the same effect, but at least then the people doing the pirating are legally wrong.


Which is exactly why the laws need to be changed. The IIPA is the true plague, and piracy is just part of the cure.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Tyler 86 on 2/16/2007 8:32:35 PM , Rating: 2
The IIPA may be a plague, but piracy will never be part of a cure.

Piracy problems or not, they are making a tidy profit.
People who won't buy for any reason, won't buy; the IIPA will sink.


By Tsuwamono on 2/18/2007 11:53:47 AM , Rating: 2
*Singing* Ding dong the witch is dead *End singing*


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 8:33:34 AM , Rating: 2
> "the minimum wage in israel is less then $1000US a month...

In the US, the minimum wage is $1030 a month. I'm not seeing a big difference here.

> "if they want piracy to stop then they must figure out a new international pricing scheme which would set prices according to the countries average income/minimum wage/GDP/currency power..."

They should do the same thing for sports cars also. That way you could buy a Ferrari in China for $99.

Seriously, the logic that "we have a right to steal because we can't afford to buy" has got to go. Especially when you're using it to justify pirating a $50 game.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 9:08:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They should do the same thing for sports cars also. That way you could buy a Ferrari in China for $99.
Until someone invents an automated Ferrari replicator, please, for the sake of my sanity, drop that argument. It's not even close to being the same thing.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 9:23:09 AM , Rating: 3
> "It's not even close to being the same thing..."

Until someone invents intellectual property that invents itself, promotes itself, and distributes itself, its exactly the same thing.

As a holder of numerous patents, I make a great deal of money off intellectual property. A person can easily replicate my work for zero cost. But doing so robs me, and ignores not only the time I spent to develop that patent, but the decades of schooling and training I needed in preparation for it.

So when new patents, songs, and videos start appearing out of thin air, you can call it an invalid argument. Until then, its perfectly on the mark.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 9:52:53 AM , Rating: 2
No. You lost nothing. You may have failed to earn something. If you can't see the difference there, I just don't know what to tell you.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 10:02:08 AM , Rating: 2
I lost something...the ability to control usage of something I own. If you think that's trivial, I wonder how you'd react to someone using your car or your own without your permission. If your own property was involved, I think you'd suddenly develop a healthy respect for property rights.

As for monetary damages, those exist as well. Even if the thief would not otherwise have licensed it, there is the issue of dilution. If they manufacture products using my patents, they compete with companies who DO pay patent license fees. And that means less sales for them, which translates to less royalties for me.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 10:14:52 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
If you think that's trivial, I wonder how you'd react to someone using your car or your own without your permission.
If someone used my car without my permission, that would rob me of my ability to use said car. That just isn't the case with IP/software/anything easily duplicable.
quote:
If they manufacture products using my patents, they compete with companies who DO pay patent license fees. And that means less sales for them, which translates to less royalties for me.
Again. Not even in that case did you lose anything. You failed to earn royalties you may have otherwise earned. You lost nothing you had before!

Note that I'm not in any way defending pirating or IP "theft". I'm after the argument equating theft of IP to theft of worldly goods. It's not the same thing, so stop doing it. Find a better analogy.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 10:33:27 AM , Rating: 1
> "If someone used my car without my permission, that would rob me of my ability to use said car..."

I'll just use it at night while you're asleep. And I'll only use your house during the day when you're at work. Since you don't mind, just send me the keys.

> " You failed to earn royalties you may have otherwise earned. You lost nothing you had before!"

I lost the expectation of future value. The notion that this isn't a real loss reveals a basic misunderstanding of a primary tenet of our legal and economic system.

Say you agree to work for a company for half-salary, under the promise that, in five years, they'll pay you a $500,000 bonus. When that time comes, they just say "sorry, we changed our minds!". Under your logic, you lost nothing, and have no right to complain.

Your viewpoint is utterly flawed. A credit card company lends you money on the expectation of future payback, plus interest. If you decide not to pay, they most certainly lost something....and they'll take you to court to prove it.

Modern society can't function without this most basic concept. And a person who doesn't understand it can't function in that society either.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 11:39:52 AM , Rating: 4
Jesus H Christ! How did this all of a sudden become about me being against the very concept of property? Or against the concept of contractual agreements for compensation?

Read what I'm writing here. Theft of IP is not the same thing as theft of a car. Duplication of a car is not the same as duplication of a software product, or licensing a patent. It's a stupid analogy, and has nothing to do with the reality of how IP works.

Ferrari can't sell a Ferrari for $99 in China, because it costs more in raw-materials/man-hours to build a one. It doesn't cost Microsoft $378.99 to make a new copy of Windows Vista Ultimate for sale in China. It's a flawed analogy!


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:47:24 AM , Rating: 1
> "How did this all of a sudden become about me being against the very concept of property?"

Very simply. Because you don't want to respect the rights of property ownership. You want to force someone to give you some measure of control over their own property. And that attacks one of the very foundations of modern civilization.

> "It doesn't cost Microsoft $378.99 to make a new copy of Windows Vista ..."

No it only costs them a few pennies. But if they sold every copy for that, they'd lose billion of dollars. Is a concept such as fixed vs. amortized costs really so hard to grasp?

Even cars contain intellectual property. And the price you pay reflects not only the cost of the raw materials and assembly labor, but the salaries paid to the designers and engineers. If GM sold cars just for production costs, they'd be out of business in a year. And so would Microsoft.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 12:03:17 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Very simply. Because you don't want to respect the rights of property ownership.
I'd be very happy if you could show me exactly where I said that. You're attributing ideas to me, when I never said any such thing. Great way to have an argument though. Keep people on the defensive, instead of dealing with their point. Kudos.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 12:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
> "I'd be very happy if you could show me exactly where I said that..."

When you said that the loss of future value wasn't a real loss. Also by saying that using a person's property without permission was acceptable, as long as they weren't themselves trying to use it at the time.

> "Great way to have an argument though. Keep people on the defensive, instead of dealing with their point"

I answered your point, and so far you've failed to address mine. A future expectation of value is real value. If you lose it, you've suffered a loss. Why not address that point, instead of attempting to attack me personally?



RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 12:28:33 PM , Rating: 2
Expectation of value is NOT a value in its own name. It is expectation! While it may be calculated as value in the accounting, it is not.
Another problem is that what some companies claim is like: hey we've lost $10bn expected value in that country last year! What they fail to say is that the GDP of that country is in the $20bn range. Therefore the whole "expectation" is mostly PR talk as it must have been clear to SW vendor even a few years back that no country would pay(nor is capable of paying) 50% GDP for licences...
The same with companies. If $1m revenue food company is considered $200k missed oportunity is crazy. The possibilities of a lawfull resolution are usually 2:
- the company would switch to cheaper vendor
- the company would go bankrupt therefore no licenses sold...


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 12:56:37 PM , Rating: 3
> "Expectation of value is NOT a value in its own name"

Of course it is. And that abstract concept is the basis of any modern economic system. You loan someone money, you have the expectation of being repaid. If that doesn't happen, you've suffered a loss. A real loss.

> "Therefore the whole "expectation" is mostly PR talk as[no country] would pay 50% GDP for licences... "

I don't recall anyone claiming a $10B loss in a nation with a $20B GDP. Sure you're not exaggerating this?



By mino on 2/16/2007 1:11:08 PM , Rating: 2
That fictual number was just to illustrate the point, in every economy the amount of expandable money for IP is of course different but far below that number. But that $200k vs. $1m company is from some news a few yrs back.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Lego on 2/16/2007 2:17:11 PM , Rating: 2
When you loan someone money you make some agreement with that person. By doing this you acquire the right to demand the fulfillment of that agreement (because both of you agreed to it). Moreover, after the actual procedure you become unable to use the money you loaned.
When someone replicates some SW he isn't bound to any agreement with vendor and he doesn't delete that SW (and source code) from all the vendor's computers. So, as was previously written by some people, vendor neither loses nor acquires anything ... as in the case when that someone wouldn't have bought or replicated that SW at all.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 2:33:09 PM , Rating: 2
> "By doing this you acquire the right to demand the fulfillment of that agreement (because both of you agreed to it)..."

And when you buy software or a CD, you agree to the terms of the sale as well. Which includes a prohibition against unauthorized copying.

In any case, you're missing the main point. My analogy was simply to prove that loss of an expected return is still an actual loss. If you develop a hot new technology and patent it, you have a real, tangible value, even if you don't yet have any money in hand. If someone infringes upon that patent, you have suffered a loss, just as if someone had reached into your wallet and taken money.


By Lego on 2/16/2007 3:55:08 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
And when you buy software or a CD, you agree to the terms of the sale as well. Which includes a prohibition against unauthorized copying.

Well, when a person buys some pirated SW he in fact makes some "agreement" with a seller, and not with a producer of the SW. And this "agreement", apparently, does not include "a prohibition against unauthorized copying". When a person downloads some SW from the i-net he doesn't have any agreement with whomever at all.

quote:
If you develop a hot new technology and patent it, you have a real, tangible value

Actually, no ... until you _produce_ something tangible and unique (which cannot be replicated by a mouse click) with the help of that technology. The "technology" is just an intangible method of producing a tangible thing and this method consists of some aggregate of, again, intangible physics' and mathematics' theories. I cannot ride by a "technology" ("technologies") to my work, although I can ride by a car.

quote:
If someone infringes upon that patent, you have suffered a loss

Eh ... the previous paragraph replies to this. You don't lose anything ... neither your "technology" which you can still use and produce something nor money.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By wien on 2/16/2007 1:11:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also by saying that using a person's property without permission was acceptable, as long as they weren't themselves trying to use it at the time.
Oh come on now. You're smarter than that. I never said any such thing! If you look carefully, you'll see that I have never actually said what my stand on this issue is. All I've done so far is argue against what I believe to be a flawed analogy that gets thrown around every time this discussion rears it's ugly face.
quote:
A future expectation of value is real value. If you lose it, you've suffered a loss.
No you haven't. You've lost theoretical value. An expectation of value is exactly that; an expectation. You're in no way guaranteed this value. It's something you, perhaps rightly so, assume you're going to get, but it is nothing you are 100% guaranteed, or even entitled to get. People may very well not license any of your IP, nor "steal" it. Would that mean you lost something too?

That's the difference between IP theft and real theft. If someone steals your car, you have no car. If someone steals your idea, what has really changed from before?


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 1:26:32 PM , Rating: 2
> "I never said any such thing!"

You said theft of a car was only wrong because it deprived you of its use. That certainly implies that its ok to borrow your car without permission, as long as you're not using it at the time.

> "I have never actually said what my stand on this issue is..."

Quite possibly that's why you're being misunderstood then. Why not take a stand and just tell us your real opinion?

> "If someone steals your idea, what has really changed from before? "

Then they've taken your property and used it without your consent...intellectual rape, if you will. What if someone drugged a woman and raped her without her knowledge. Yo use your logic, what "really changed" from before?

Of course, IP theft goes deeper than that, as it results in monetary damages as well. For people who make their living from intellectual property, its theft can and does mean financial ruin. It's no different from you having your paycheck stolen.




By rdeegvainl on 2/16/2007 2:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
Another way to look at it is, If you steal someones car, they don't have the car. If you use someones idea, they still have that idea. Saying that intellectual rights are the same as physical rights is akin to saying you can't use a word that i developed without my permission because it would be like taking my car. Though it may be wrong to pirate software, being as it is a business venture, the analogy used to compare the two is wrong.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 3:01:59 PM , Rating: 1
> "if you use someones idea, they still have that idea."

But its now worth less. As if you stole their car, wrecked it, then returned it. Just because they still have the vehicle, does that mean they didn't suffer a loss?

> "[it] is akin to saying you can't use a word that i developed."

If you trademark that word and use it to sell a product-- I can't.


By rdeegvainl on 2/22/2007 10:35:07 AM , Rating: 2
>"But its now worth less. As if you stole their car, wrecked it, then returned it. Just because they still have the vehicle, does that mean they didn't suffer a loss?"

There in lies the difference between physical theft and IP infringement that I was trying to explain. you make my point for me. You wrecked the car, the owner's "loss" was the "use" of the car they had paid for. In the case of IP infringement, you can still USE your idea, maybe people won't pay as much for it, but that doesn't mean you are robbed of your idea, just the ability to market it to its potential. That is the DIFFERENCE. So based on the laws of science, I have taken your theory of "no difference" and disproved it by finding a single counter example. Can you now support the NO difference nonsense?

>"If you trademark that word and use it to sell a product-- I can't

And yes you can use a word someone trademarked. Just not for profit. otherwise no one would be able to say "IPOD". And i don't see people paying royalties for using that word.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By deeznuts on 2/16/2007 5:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You said theft of a car was only wrong because it deprived you of its use. That certainly implies that its ok to borrow your car without permission, as long as you're not using it at the time.
Masher, you've got some horrible reading comprehension. He stated that theft of car was different then theft of IP, therefore your analogy was flawed. You jumped to the conclusion then that he was stating one was theft while another wasn't. I normally don't like to jump into other parties arguments, but I just had to. All he wanted to say was your analogy is flawed, use another one.

Regarding your comment about future expectation analogy (regarding loaning out money etc.) that is flawed too. If you loan money out, you get a contract for repayment, a note, that is not a future expectation, you have that today. I do agree with you future expectation has a value, it's not 100% of course, but it's still a value. A similar concept would be "goodwill" when you purchase an existing business. A value can be placed on that, it's not 100% of the expectation, but still a value. We'll leave that to valuation experts.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 6:02:34 PM , Rating: 1
> "If you loan money out, you get a contract for repayment, a note, that is not a future expectation, you have that today."

And if you hold a valuable patent or rights to a song, you have that today as well. And that has value, even though the actual monetary gain still lies in the future. The person to which I responded failed to see that.

> "He stated that theft of car was different then theft of IP..."

But neither he, nor anyone else here, has succesfully explained why stealing a car, damaging it, then returning it is different in essence to the theft of IP. In both cases you still retain the original property...but that property has been damaged by the theft.




RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By Tyler 86 on 2/16/2007 9:08:35 PM , Rating: 2
IP theft and physical theft are different, but both are wrong, and damaging.

Theft of a physical car versus intellectual property theft;
The physical element of the intellectual property is undamaged, even though it's market value (may have) changed.
The value element of a stolen car changes only on that car.

IP theft in some ways worse than physical theft, however, the IP commonly 'stolen' isn't plans for an automobile, or a nuclear weapon.

Physicly stealing a CD is 'less harmful' than stealing it's contents to the person being stolen from (in most cases), but more harmful to the company producing the content.

That's how it's different.

In the case of car theft, however, you lose possession of the physical property, whereas in IP theft, you never lose possession of the physical property, nor the intellectual property, even though the intellectual property itself is damaged.

IP theft between corperations, or people selling the stolen material second hand is far worse than physical theft, because they are able to pollute the value of the IP further by reproducing the physical aspect of the IP.

Stealing a nuclear bomb (physical property) and then reverse engineering it to a reproducable degree (intellectual property) has far greater harmful potential, and causes far more harm to both property aspects.

"Stealing" a song, by reproducing it, yet not selling it, should be less than minor theft. Redistributing it without selling it, is minor theft. Selling the reproductions is theft; true piracy.

Typicly, if the reproductions are poor, they end up benefiting the original IP holders.
High quality reproductions being sold far under price to a large audience, while being liable for large monetary sums of damage, also clearly demonstrates a product failure.

Cars come with keys. Some cars have anti-theft systems. Cars are easy to spot. Cars are easy to trace. Cars are heavy. Cars are commonly in public, policed areas.
They are still stolen, but due to the nature of the product, the automotive industry doesn't make nearly as much noise as the members of the IIPA do.

Songs, now, come with keys. Keys are good at slowing down intruders. Songs aren't easy to spot. They're tucked away inside small spinning discs, sometimes in various formats, unkeyed, or with new keys. Songs aren't easy to trace. There's a gigantic traffic mesh called 'the internet' in the way. They can't see the forest for the trees; literally, they can't see the distribution network for the traffic. Songs aren't in public areas, and are not policed.


The market needs to change, piracy still needs to be pursued, yet the RIAA would rather just whine because they're still making a tidy profit, dispite their 'best efforts'.


By Tyler 86 on 2/16/2007 9:10:15 PM , Rating: 2
How the heck did I miss it;
"Physicly stealing a CD is 'less harmful'", needs to be "Intellectual stealing a CD is 'less harmful'"...


By deeznuts on 2/16/2007 10:52:20 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
But neither he, nor anyone else here, has succesfully explained why stealing a car, damaging it, then returning it is different in essence to the theft of IP. In both cases you still retain the original property...but that property has been damaged by the theft.


I still can't believe you don't see the difference of owning an actual vessel vs. intellectual property. The two are inherently different. In your example, the moment the car is stolen the owner is deprived of possession and use of his property. He is deprived of such until the thief, in your scenario, returns it, damaged as you say. No such thing happens with IP. IP theft is almost a misnomer, IP rights can be "infringed" not stolen, unless there is only one copy in the whole world on a CD and I break into the creator's house and steal it!

Theft of IP and theft of property are both wrong, but they are different.


By Ringold on 2/17/2007 3:52:18 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how you guys can be arguing over the loss of a future value being an actual current-day loss. It IS. The stock market makes billion dollar swings based not on current revenue streams but the present value of expected future income. Earnings reports many times are irrelevant in the sense that often times nobody cares how it did over the last 3 months; they're interested primarily in the next 3mo, 12mo, and longer term.

I get the feeling some of you guys studied too much accounting in college. Accounting explains tax bills and cash flow; not profit or loss, and does nothing to explain why anybody gets out of bed in the morning. (Hint: Act of getting out of bed costs nothing, gains nothing. That would mystify an accountant. You get out of the bed because of the PRESENT VALUE of EXPECTED FUTURE INCOME derived from going to work later on, and then enjoying that income later on)


By qualme on 2/21/2007 10:59:49 AM , Rating: 2
wien, you're so wrong on this point, just go back to school or something. Your sophistry is giving me a headache.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By sviola on 2/16/2007 10:19:37 AM , Rating: 2
Actuallu, it's not the same. Would be if your IP was in a media and that's the only media you have with it.

The car IP is owned by the manufacturer. And he sells the car for you and allows you to do what you want with it. Why can't software and music industries do the same?



By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 10:39:01 AM , Rating: 2
> "The car IP is owned by the manufacturer. And he sells the car for you and allows you to do what you want with it."

He allows you to do what you want with that copy of the car. You can take it where ever you want, whenevever you like...even destroy it if you want. Just as you can with your copy of a CD or DVD.

Now if you try to copy that car's design or engineering, you'll instantly be sued, and rightly so. There is no real difference between the industries.



RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By sviola on 2/16/2007 10:54:26 AM , Rating: 2
But you can't do whatever you like with your copy of the song you have.

And there's a huge difference in copying a file that is a song and copying a song.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 10:57:16 AM , Rating: 2
> "But you can't do whatever you like with your copy of the song you have."

Sure you can. You can take it anywhere, play it whenever you like, even use it as a frisbee if you want. You just can't make another copy of your copy. Just like you're not free to make a copy of the CPU in your computer, or the design of your car.


By rcc on 2/16/2007 3:11:11 PM , Rating: 1
Precisely. The main problem that our neo economists have is that they differentiate legalities by what is easy to duplicate.

i.e. It's easy to duplicate a CD, song, movie, operating system, etc. if you have a computer. Therefore, it should be legal to do so. I can, therefore I should be allowed to. It's a load of bunk.

A car on the other hand, is quite difficult to duplicate. Beyond the abilities of most people. Therefore it must be "real" property and illegal to steal or duplicate.

Get over yourselves, and your feelings of entitlement. It's illegal, and it's wrong, fooling yourselves into thinking otherwise because it makes you feel better is also a load of crap. Own up, it probably won't keep the neo econimists ( I like that term, is it in use yet?), from doing what they want to do, but at least you won't be fooling yourselves anymore.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By SmokeRngs on 2/16/2007 3:30:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now if you try to copy that car's design or engineering, you'll instantly be sued, and rightly so. There is no real difference between the industries.


Incorrect.

I can make a complete and total copy of my car. Every part of it is available for me to purchase. After purchasing or creating the parts and assembling the car, I have a copy. The car manufacturer can't do anything about it. Sure, it's extremely cost prohibitive to do that, but I can do it.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 3:56:28 PM , Rating: 1
> "Every part of it is available for me to purchase...."

Err, that's not making a copy, that's buying a copy...one piece at a time. The price for each piece has both manufacturing and IP costs built into it.

You can do the same thing with albums also. Buy them, one song at a time.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By SmokeRngs on 2/16/2007 5:11:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Err, that's not making a copy, that's buying a copy...one piece at a time. The price for each piece has both manufacturing and IP costs built into it.

You can do the same thing with albums also. Buy them, one song at a time.


No, it's not buying a copy; it's buying parts. I am not buying another copy of the car. It's the same with "kit cars". You are not buying a copy of the car, just the parts for one. There is a distinction there.

Just because I have all the pieces to something does not mean I purchased a copy. By your definition, there are a lot of "greatest hits" albums I have copies of that I wasn't aware of. I have all those songs included on other albums. However, I've never purchased the "greatest hits" albums so I don't actually have a copy of the albums. I just have the songs included on those albums. As with the car, I didn't purchase a copy of the car, just the parts included in the car.


By deeznuts on 2/16/2007 5:41:13 PM , Rating: 4
Again you guys are equating tangible property with intellectual property. Masher, no matter what you say, tangible property analogies with IP is always flawed. Think about it this way, if they were the same why the need for IP law then? A whole subsection of the legal framework for IP, when it is the same? If it is the same as your analogies attempt to show, we wouldn't need IP law. It's a different animal altogether. A car is a car, made up of specific parts. IP is not the CD itself. The CD is a medium to carry the song/music/etc. A song can be placed on a floppy, a CD, a hard drive, transmitted over radio, sattelite, etc.

A book can be printed on paper, in electronic form as a PDF, ebook, etc. If you can't see how inherently diffferent that is from a car, well ...


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By sviola on 2/16/2007 10:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not in favour of pirating, but companies charge abusive prices on some countries, here is an example:

In Brazil, minimum wage is around $170. And they charge around $15 for a CD and $20 for a DVD. A pc game is around $50 (and there are reduced taxes on software and computer items here) and a PS2 game is around $100.
Does this make sense to a normal person? To charge in a poor country the same they charge in one of the richest countries in the world?

You have a very limited view of the things around the world. Most people around the world are poor, and the media is always throwing "buy this to be cool" messages all around. They create the need for the items, and then complain when people that don't have the money to afford pirate it? Well, I don't see a way out of it...they can try for the rest of eternity and won't end pirating.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By gramboh on 2/16/2007 10:49:45 AM , Rating: 2
Economically, yes, they should charge the same price for consumer goods in every market, or at least charge a price that nets them the same profit in that cost centre. The production cost of the game is fixed, so it doesn't make sense to sell it for less and make a loss in poorer countries. The only way they could sell it for less would be if they could produce it in the country with lower wages and capture those savings.

Of course in reality, piracy will be rampant for digital content in poorer countries. It's too bad industry groups will probably try to pressure their government as part of trade union agreements.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By sviola on 2/16/2007 11:00:46 AM , Rating: 2
According to your assumption, then a AAA title in the UK and Europe should be sold by the same price than in the US. In the US they're sold for $50 in UK for 50 pounds and Europe for €50. But 50 pounds = 110 dollars and €50 = $70. Well, there seems to be something wrong here, as they shouldn't be charging more if the game is developed in the US. They should charge 25 pounds and €33 in those markets.

Also, they shouldn't charge you the same ammount if they add in-game advertisements, which are annoying and disruptive.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:11:05 AM , Rating: 2
> "Well, there seems to be something wrong here, as they shouldn't be charging more if the game..."

Many products are priced higher in Europe due to the additional costs of doing business in an EU nation. Sometimes a company just eats the extra cost. Their choice...don't quibble over it.

> "Also, they shouldn't charge you the same ammount if they add in-game advertisements..."

Who are you to keep telling other people what they should or shouldn't charge? Do you want someone to tell you what price you're allowed to charge when you next sell your home or your car? Is the concept of freedom totally lost upon you?

Let a company set whatever price they want. If you don't like the price, don't buy the product.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:11:06 AM , Rating: 2
> "Well, there seems to be something wrong here, as they shouldn't be charging more if the game..."

Many products are priced higher in Europe due to the additional costs of doing business in an EU nation. Sometimes a company just eats the extra cost. Their choice...don't quibble over it.

> "Also, they shouldn't charge you the same ammount if they add in-game advertisements..."

Who are you to keep telling other people what they should or shouldn't charge? Do you want someone to tell you what price you're allowed to charge when you next sell your home or your car? Is the concept of freedom totally lost upon you?

Let a company set whatever price they want. If you don't like the price, don't buy the product.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 11:41:57 AM , Rating: 2
If a set of companies develop oligopoly enviriment the consumer has VERY hard chioce to make. Not to buy a product (which may i.e. result in him beeing considered socially-inept for not having a stopckpile of CD's) or to just submit to the oligopoly.
Usually this scenario is the issue, to the high prices on several products but the whole market beeing overpriced. It is many times maintained by artificially increasing even prices for domestic goods by selling them at import prices.
To market local artist (where the costs are 99% at the local expense-rate) at the same price as imported(allready overpriced) one in a country with ~$400 common infome is much closer to burglary to me than to the so-called "market-price".


By mino on 2/16/2007 11:48:11 AM , Rating: 2
hoping Opera implements spellcheck soon :)


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:55:20 AM , Rating: 3
> "Not to buy a product [and] be considered socially-inept...or to just submit to the oligopoly...

All the wild talk of an "oligopoly" aside, the fact remains that tens of thousands of artists are not with RIAA labels, and have their music freely available on the Internet.

But you don't want their music...you want the RIAA bands. Why? I suppose its the fear you mention of being labelled "socially inept". That feeling is the result of billions of dollars spent by labels to promote their music. That's why artists sign with those labels. Those dollars pay off.

If you don't like the game, get off the bandwagon. No one is forcing you to buy CDs. Stand up the peer pressure and those friends who label you socially inept! Its really not as hard as it sounds.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 12:39:09 PM , Rating: 2
Most local bands are NOT able to publish music by non-RIAA related publish houses as those are almost non-existent. If they even decide to publish on they own the have no means to get to the distribution chain(not to mention radio) which is either owned by or very closely related to main publishing houses.

As for Internet, not everywhere the internet is a given.

While _I_ consider it the basic neccesity (more so than a phone), if one has to pay 5% of its income for BASIC(dial or 1G/month plan) internet access, it cannot be considered an option for any mass (professionall) music distribution.

In 10 yrs, you would be right on spot.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 1:02:49 PM , Rating: 2
> "As for Internet, not everywhere the internet is a given"

Anyone who pirates songs over the Internet certainly has Internet access. So for someone here to claim they're being subjected to an "oligopoly" of RIAA-sponsored music is total rubbish. They're simply trying to justify their actions.



By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 10:59:37 AM , Rating: 4
> "They create the need for the items."

Let's be honest here. No one "needs" a CD or a DVD. They just want it. And some people are willing to steal to get it.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By sviola on 2/16/2007 11:08:17 AM , Rating: 2
No one does? Have you ever heard of the human need to have fun? People cannot only live of food and work. They'd get insane.
Entertainment is a human need, and our society has made this need turn into music, movies, books, games and related things.

Also, there's a technic in marketing (i don't recall the name right now :( ) that has as it's objective to create an uneeded thing become needed, by convincing people that they need something they don't need. And, well, all companies use this to sell their items, as most things we use aren't really needed...



By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:14:13 AM , Rating: 3
> "Entertainment is a human need..."

And for ten thousand years, humans filled that need without CDs or DVDs. Even today, hundreds of millions of people manage their entire lives without them. Calling an iPod full of music a "human need" is just a rationalization of your own wants and desires.



RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By cochy on 2/16/2007 11:23:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, there's a technic in marketing (i don't recall the name right now :( ) that has as it's objective to create an uneeded thing become needed, by convincing people that they need something they don't need. And, well, all companies use this to sell their items, as most things we use aren't really needed...


That's not a technique. That's the goal of every advertisement. I really do not need to upgrade to Windows Vista, but every time I see an ad for it, for about 20 seconds I feel as though I need to get it. Lucky it only lasts for 20 seconds lol.

I live in Canada. An RCMP officer made a presentation in my computer forensics class last week. When asked about using pirated software he was quick to mention that it was a grey area. If I download and use pirated software, or music for personal use, I'm pretty much safe from criminal actions, however I could be held monetarily liable from the actual copyright holders themselves, if they decide to pursue legal action against me. If I pirate and sell materials for personal profit the current laws will roast me. He made that pretty clear.


By mino on 2/16/2007 11:34:49 AM , Rating: 2
"I really do not need to upgrade to Windows Vista, but every time I see an ad for it, for about 20 seconds I feel as though I need to get it."

Well, I usually iether switch most annoying or repating ads off or face the reality of getting angry.
I however accept any ad that tries to present the product or educate the consumer in polite way.
To have some voice screem on me from my hi-fi ssystem (or some ad play 20 times a day on radio) means that I a priori decide to ignore the products of that company. They would have to be clearly superior to competition for me to even consider them as possible option.

But thats me. I was not raised on aggresive ads (as most kids indeveloped world are now) and as such have developed strong conscious antipaty to it once it became common in my vicinity.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By cochy on 2/16/2007 11:43:09 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, I'll expand on my comment and mention that the RCMP officer wasn't only referring to private citizens. He was also referring to small and medium sized companies using pirated software. If during an investigation the police discovered pirated software all over a certain companies computers, the most they would do is mention to the president that using pirated software is wrong. That's it. They would take it a step further. When asked why they wouldn't, he replied mainly because of the lack of resources in law enforcement to deal with this issue.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
> "he replied mainly because of the lack of resources in law enforcement..."

Exactly. It's not a "grey area". Its illegal...but many agencies just don't have the manpower to enforce it.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By cochy on 2/16/2007 12:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
No no. It's definitely a grey area. He was specific in mentioning that. The report the article cites is correct. There isn't much legislation in place to deal with pirating materials which aren't being resold for profit.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 12:18:22 PM , Rating: 2
> "No no. It's definitely a grey area..."

Canadian Copyright Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. C-42. Sec 42, specifies imprisonment for up to 5 years for anyone who knowingly infringes upon a copyright. Sec 27 defines infringement as anything beyond a single reproduction used only for backup purposes. Sounds pretty clear to me.


By cochy on 2/16/2007 12:34:18 PM , Rating: 2
1985 huh. Thanks for digging that up. Seems kinda out dated since times and technology have changed in leaps and bounds. Anyway, I'm just relaying what a federal police officer told me. I can make 50 copies of King Kong inside a court room and I won't be going anywhere for 5 years :P

The law is outdated new and more specific legislation is needed.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 11:25:06 AM , Rating: 2
It's called induced addiction. Some narcotics do that...
Windows would NEVER be succsesfull in the developing countries had MS tries to enforce the licensing scheme there.
MS INTENTIONALLY puts blind eye on it as after they get huge market penetration by the ways of illegal copying and oversaturate the market to kill competition which DOES what it says and actually enforces its own licensing policy.

Remember that in many countries (such as mine) the US companies bought-out all local potential competitors during local economic turmoils and then set oligopoly prices even TWICE the prices of their goods in the US. This is especially clearly seen in phonographic industry.
Example: I pay for AVERAGE (US OR domestic!) album from $18 to $25 and ~ $15 if the item is on the mark et for a year or so. Also >$35 for bonus, DVD-A or high-demand title is common. I see no justification for such a price as the average wage here is in the $600/month range. Also all local expenses as staff, floor space, energy are of much lower cost than in the US.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 11:30:11 AM , Rating: 2
> "MS INTENTIONALLY puts blind eye on it ..."

What would you have them do? They're a US firm with zero enforcement rights even in America, much less anywhere else in the world. If local governments refuse to take action, there's not much they can do.

They're not "turning a blind eye". And even if they were, it doesn't justify the piracy itself.


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 12:07:18 PM , Rating: 2
I live in Slovakia and we have here ENFORCEABLE IP laws from the early 90-ties.
The first time I remember FIRST serious effort put up by MS and allies to punnisg illegal coppying was some 2-3 yrs ago.
By serious attempts I meas that they started reporting license abuse to police in a significant way.
All the time they were, of course, wery well aware of the situation.
Actually I do not see their tactics of narcotics dealers (give for free then hard-cash) as the most disturbing.
Even so they have almost completely annihilated local SW vendors by letting people use their product allmost for free thus effectively dumping the price.
What makes me angry is that a company intentionally -FOR ITS OWN LONG-TERM BENEFIT- creates hugely illegal user-base in some country to achieve market-share it would NEVER achieve otherwise. Then starts putting fingers on that coutry and using US gov backing to pressure the gov of our country which had pretty much nothing to do with the spread of the illegal SW use -when the vendor does NOT report KNOWN abuse, the police has most of the time no way to know about it.
As a sidenote, the so-called piracy rate of domestic SW here is estimated several times lower than for imported SW... Guess why.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 12:24:58 PM , Rating: 2
> "I live in Slovakia and we have here ENFORCEABLE IP laws from the early 90-ties..."

There's a huge difference between enforceable laws and enforced laws.

> "Actually I do not see their tactics of narcotics dealers (give for free then hard-cash) ..."

You demonstrate the logical fallacy known as the "appeal to prejudice", a very useful technique in propaganda. It was one of the favorites of Dr. Joseph Goebbels, of Third Reich fame.

(see, I used it just as you did...)


RE: i probem with how international pricing works
By mino on 2/16/2007 12:53:53 PM , Rating: 2
By enforceable I meant that it WAS enforced on regular basis by vendors that wanted to do so (local AND importing ones).

Yes, you are right on that. the reason I meant that strong expression as a metaphor and also to counter simmilar tactics used by IP protecting alliances.
You know the simple of labaling someone a pirate (which was until MS used it considered very strong evil-doer role in here) come from the same tactics.

As for goebels, yeah, he used a this speech tactics with perfection. So what ?
You could have mentioned pretty much any politician on this planet on his place. This tactics is common in speeches for millenia.

However I did not intend to use it this way, it was just the first analogy that came to my mind.