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Developer describes PC game piracy as "astounding"

Besides targeting the mass market, there are other reasons for many PC game developers to shift focus to consoles.

Call of Duty, a franchise that started on the PC, is now a bona fide hit on current-generation consoles Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. Listed as one of GameStop’s top five selling games throughout the holiday season, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare was also amongst the most often played online.

Microsoft’s Larry Hryb detailed in his blog that Call of Duty 4 was the third most played game on Xbox Live, behind only Halo 3 and Gears of War.

Even with the success of the console versions of Call of Duty 4, the developers of the game continue to put effort into extending the life of its work for the PC audience. Coming soon are mod tools for hobbyists to create new game modes, as well as a map editor to make new environments.

Sadly, one issue that plagues PC gaming far more than consoles is the issue of piracy. Robert Bowling of Infinity Ward wrote in his fourzerotwo blog under the heading “They Wonder Why People Don't Make PC Games Any More” a particularly disturbing note commenting on the “astounding” number of people who have pirated Call of Duty 4 and play online.

“On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic),” wrote Bowling. “What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).”

“Not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding,” he continued. “It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do.”

Infinity Ward is not the first developer to speak out on the difficulties that piracy creates for PC game makers. id Software’s Todd Hollenshead presented a speech on the very topic at the Game Developer’s Conference 2007 – and like Infinity Ward chose to do with Call of Duty 4, id Software’s next project will also be developed with consoles in mind.

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So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 9:49:10 AM , Rating: 5
Two suggestions:

If you know the players are using a cracked/stolen key, kick them off!!!

To get some revenue out of those folks, display in-lobby advertisements. Maybe charge based on the number of people currently in the game. That way you'll be making advertising money even if you didn't sell a legal copy of the game. And maybe, just maybe, you could use that extra cash to offset the $50 I have to drop just to have the game in the first place.




RE: So do something about it
By initialised on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By qwertyz on 1/16/2008 10:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
The ever increasing system spec of new games and the fact that they run properly only on cutting edge hardware makes users not to buy them after all what's the reason of buying a new game if your PC couldn't run it or it runs it on Low specs looking like crap and running like crap.


RE: So do something about it
By RandallMoore on 1/16/2008 12:34:52 PM , Rating: 3
That and the fact that you could pay 50$ for a game just to find out that its the worst game ever developed. It especially makes me mad when i spend that much money on buggy/non working software. BF2 bugs and compatibility issues anyone?? oh yea... they never did fix that 50$ game.

Worst of all, once you open it, it can not be returned. I would rather have the original copy anyway. If they would lower it from $50 to $30 (or less) you would see a BIG drop in piracy. I would even buy more music CD's instead of downloading songs if they were not $25!!! Whats it really worth?? try like 10. Think about it. Wouldnt you rather have the original copy if it was at a decent price as opposed to going through the headache of downloading and cracking/patching/tweaking?


RE: So do something about it
By IGoodwin on 1/16/2008 12:47:47 PM , Rating: 2
This is what I assume if common knowledge, but it may need saying. The reason you can't take a game back after you open it is precisly because of piracy.

While I don't have a solution, if piracy could be eliminated, then you caould take games back that were bad. Trying to justify piracy because there are bad games is not really the best logical argument.


RE: So do something about it
By mmntech on 1/16/2008 1:18:57 PM , Rating: 4
I think the above user makes a very good argument, though it doesn't justify downloading.
The problem with the rule in copyright law that prevents returns is that it assumes guilt. There's a delicate balance between consumer rights and the rights of the copyright holder. In this particular case, I believe consumer rights are being violated. Don't bother bringing up weak parallels like locks on doors, because I know somebody will, since that is not the same thing.

The problem with the entertainment industry is they seem to be able to skirt around things that other industries wouldn't get away with. There seems to be little or no concern for quality control either, which I believe these laws fuel since there are fewer consequences to releasing a bad product. As the above user said, this causes piracy since people don't want to take the risk of paying $60 for a game to find out it doesn't work or you simply don't like it. Once again, I'm not trying to justify downloading but it is a valid point. This is one of the reasons I moved to consoles since I can rent the game to legally try before I buy.


RE: So do something about it
By SlyNine on 1/16/2008 6:12:16 PM , Rating: 2
Could you link me to the copyright law that prevents returns? Iv been trying to find any law that prevents returns but I havent found anything.


RE: So do something about it
By spluurfg on 1/17/2008 5:45:07 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's necessarily copyright law, but store policies. And it makes sense too... I sure wouldn't want to buy a pre-opened piece of software only to find out somebody is already using my serial for online play.

I remember not too long ago developers would almost always have a demo of the game out before or when the full game launched. Nowadays it's tougher... developers are usually under such pressure to get the game out that often they can't even finish it and have to patch it later. Also, certain download sites seem to want to make it a business to have exclusive download rights to certain demos, funnelling everybody into the same few servers and making it pretty much inaccessible.

Granted many are just pirating because they have no intention of paying for something, but I know of some who have used illegal copies of apps or games as a a trial then buying the full copy. It's not legal, but it's what people do.


RE: So do something about it
By mcturkey on 1/27/2008 2:08:58 AM , Rating: 2
This is correct that a majority of retailers do not permit returns of opened PC games due to piracy issues. I believe once a CD key has been used, nobody else is legally entitled to that key, regardless of whether they own that physical game as a result of purchasing a returned item or not. Generally, if retailers accept a return on an opened piece of PC software, the item is destroyed, which hurts both the retailer and the developer.

Forcing online key validation (ex. Steam or MMOs) is the only way to ensure that piracy is minimized. Yes, there will be people who get around it anyway, but it's precisely the difficulty of pirating console games that is driving developers to support them more than PC. While I still feel offline play shouldn't require an internet connection to validate the game, if you play online, the developer should have the right to kick you off the servers if you're using a pirated copy. Why Infinity Ward isn't doing anything against the pirated copies is beyond me, though.


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/16/2008 3:07:45 PM , Rating: 2
I have a lot of the tools at my disposal to steal/pirate a lot of software. To date, the ONLY software I have not purchased is:
Photoshop
3DS Max
FRAPS
Photoshop and 3DS are self-explanatory. They're hugely expensive and are intended for developers who make money using them to purchase. How could I justify spending hundreds/thousands of dollars on a program I use for my entertainment, or a map I play to release for free? it's ridiculous.
FRAPS, I torrented two years ago, before I got a credit card. If I didn't have it now I'd gladly pay for it.
A lot of people on this thread are justifying piracy by saying they can't return the game.... Which is ludicrious. Ever heard of a demo? Reading reviews? It's not a difficult concept, and I have yet to wish to return a PC game. I've researced them for three or four days then purchased it with my own, hard earned money to keep the studio that did an excellent job on said software alive and kicking. Music is so much crap anyway it's not worth paying for, but anyone who can't drop the forty bucks for a PC game is just a douchebag, plain and simple. Someone has created a world, spent money on employees, (and programs) and thousands of other things to bring it to you, and you can't work at minimum wage for a day to play something that will last you years if not a lifetime? You're not a real gamer, and I don't want to play with someone like you to be honest.

(and to the op, I just think they compared numbers of playing to copies sold... not the actual keys.)


RE: So do something about it
By bodar on 1/16/2008 5:42:17 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree that demos are a great measuring stick for whether a game fits your taste and definition of quality, I hardly think reviews are 100% trustworthy.

http://www.dailytech.com/GameSpot+Editorial+Direct...
http://www.dailytech.com/More+Fallout+From+the+Gam...


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/18/2008 3:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
that's a legit point. 98% for Crysis by PC gamer? I lost a lot of repsect for their staff with that review, and they CONTINUE to say that it's deserving of this rating. Having played the game, let me say that with a high end system it gets a 92 or so - the gameplay, while refined, isn't fresh and there are serious bugs in it too. On MY computer, (or anything without a Nvidia 8800 card)85, tops. The only reason I got the game is because my cousin told me to come up with a birthday present in 30 seconds and unfortunately it was the first thing I thought of. If i could go back in time I would have said Company of Heroes.


RE: So do something about it
By ethana2 on 1/16/2008 6:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
I practice with Blender and the GIMP three hours a day so when I /meet/ a pirate... I can kill it!


RE: So do something about it
By HighWing on 1/16/2008 1:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Why I do agree with you that spending $50 for a game you don't' like or think is crap, the other side of things is that way back in the ages of DOS game developers used to release tons of Demos and Shareware games. This enabled you to "try" the game and then if you like it you could go ahead and buy the full version.

I don't think I've seen any shareware games in the last decade, and very few PC games ever have Demos anymore. IMO they should get back to doing that.


RE: So do something about it
By euclidean on 1/16/2008 2:31:35 PM , Rating: 5
COD4 had a demo though...lol.

Neways, it's the only reason i download games, I want to see if I like them first...and if I do, then I buy them. And i know a ton of people that do it that same way too. But hey...something has to change right? well once everything is shifted to an online account system (like steam) there will at least be less piracy on the Online Multiplayer scene right?...lol


RE: So do something about it
By FITCamaro on 1/16/2008 2:49:46 PM , Rating: 3
CoD4 had a fully playable demo on the PC for you to see if you liked it. And it was an awesome demo at that.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/16/2008 3:00:07 PM , Rating: 5
And that's not just some isolated occurence - lots of games today have demos available. You also have reviews from dozens of sites, including user reviews, user videos, etc. There are plenty of ways to know whether or not to buy a game besides piracy.


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/16/2008 3:11:26 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. Anyone who usses the "It's hard to figure out if it's a good game" is trying to baselessly defend themselves. Music, and even video pirates are not that reprehensible to me, but people like this are killing my gaming platform and I hate them.


RE: So do something about it
By OPR8R on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By 4wardtristan on 1/16/2008 5:27:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's my opinion that singleplayer gamers should save themselves the trouble (inherent to PC gaming) and switch to console gaming.


i sure hope not!! i don't know about you, but i am absolutely horrible at aiming with a controller..i have a 360+gears of war..i haven't even gotten past the 1st stage yet thats how bad i am :(..im sure there are people like me out there...somewhere...


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/18/2008 3:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
You raise a good point - demos are usually buggy. I've been in a specific situation in which I wished exactly what you said,
quote:
hope that either the final version, or a patched version of the game will make the game playable.

And there's really no other way that I can think of to even begin to remove/replace the CD key system. I hate steam but at least I know it will keep Valve making (excellent) games for the PC.


RE: So do something about it
By Nanobaud on 1/16/2008 4:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
Of course, if you take a couple of days to read reviews, try demo, wait for feedback, etc..., then you start the game knowing all the 1337(?) players have already gone through everything. For a lot of people (assuming my son's friends are a representative sample of game-buying youth, and are sincere about the importance of getting new games asap), that's a bigger buzzkill than playing a bad game.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/17/2008 2:02:15 PM , Rating: 2
If you want the bleeding edge, get your wallet ready.

A lot of game reviews are posted before, if not 12:00 am the day of release. There are often half a dozen videos and interviews with the devs posted at gamespot. Heck, Fable 2 hasn't even announced a release date beyond 'TBA 2008' and it lalready has 40 minutes of video coverage at gamespot.

The flip side is if your son and his friends wait for a cracked version of a game to hit torrents, they'll still be a few days behind all the 1337 players.

I would think it'd do him a lot of good to take the time to research his purchases and spend his money wisely, rather than trying to fit in with the 1337 crowd. That, or get a good job.


RE: So do something about it
By IGoodwin on 1/16/2008 12:38:38 PM , Rating: 2
There is an alternative point of view that you may want to consider. Obviously all games developed can be created with the same graphics for a particular level of detail does not get more resourse intensive. The same game engine can be used, after all.

Therefore, what may be labeled as low resolution in a new game, which apparently offends you, has the same features and detail as high in an older game.

The same is true of gameplay, therefore a game with better gamepaly at the same 'old' resolution and level of detail would use more resource.

This is a normal evolution, otherwise, gameplay and grapgic stagnation are the alternative and everyone wants new and improved; at least I do.


RE: So do something about it
By 1078feba on 1/17/2008 11:14:22 AM , Rating: 2
Where have heard this arguement before, many times over...oh yeah, right here at DT ;).

Hasn't it always been this way though? Software almost always outpaces the hardware, and then, just when the hardware catches up and can run the game at 100+ fps with high settings, developers build new engines that again sprint ahead?

FWIW, CoD4 runs only on DX9 . The min spec to run it is staggeringly lower than UTIII and Crysis, yet what IW has done with their proprietary engine is nothing short of astounding. Depth of field effects, the best smoke you will see in any game, quick, concise movement, all with no appreciable fps hit at high setings. The only thing missing is volumetric lighting, which no one in a FPS is going to take the time to stop and look at anyway.

I play the PC version exclusively, and on a socket 939 proc and board, with a couple of high end cards, I get an average of 180 fps. IMHO, eminently palyable.

While I fundamentally agree with you about how annoying it is at the outset of each new generation of software/engines, I would submit that clearly CoD4 does not fall into this category.


RE: So do something about it
By erikejw on 1/16/2008 10:30:24 AM , Rating: 2
PC games have had the same price for 20 years now and the sales have 10folded. If you charge what people will pay more won't download pirated copies and the hazzle it creates.

20$ or Euro for a new game is appropriate and don't release expansion packs every third month and charge almost the same price.

The lack of creation of new game ideas is also extremally bad for the business. When the 50th similar fps games hit the market it won't sell.

Portal is a brillians example of a new stuggering splendid game.


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/16/2008 1:17:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PC games have had the same price for 20 years now and the sales have 10folded.


Yes, but 20 years ago most games were written by a small handful of people (or even 1 guy!) in a few months at most. Now games are multi-year creations by hundreds of people.


RE: So do something about it
By Director on 1/16/2008 4:27:02 PM , Rating: 2
And yet for some reason, the games were SO much better 20 years ago? Maybe if they were developed now with those principles instead of trying to make a Hollywood epic, all effects and no content, then sales would take off again?

As for prices, hear in Australia we are paying $100 aud for a new release. Personally I refuse that much for a game, but if I wait 6-12 months I can get it for about $50, or buy one second hand.


RE: So do something about it
By xsilver on 1/16/2008 7:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
Theres the age old argument that a game will give you good value entertainment time wise versus anything else. While that is generally true, a bad game can really skew that idea.

Cinema ticket (in australia) $15
entertainment = 3 hours max
Good game = $100
entertainment = 100 hours
winner = good game

Bad game = $100
entertainment = 6 hours
winner = cinema

While there can be bad movies too, the initial cost is still much lower so you dont feel burned as much.
I think the frustration stems from the fact that not enough games nowadays feel really "polished" to warrant that $$ purchase

A move to an episodic (half life) type game will really put the onus on the developer to produce better games; especially if the episodes are kept short sweet and CHEAP


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/17/2008 2:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And yet for some reason, the games were SO much better 20 years ago


Really? Which 20 year old games do you play today? Personally, I've found most 20 year old games are only better in my memory. On the occaisions I've actually played them, it's been rather a disappointment. There are a few exceptions of course, but even the best of 20 years ago are not 'SO much better' than the best games today. (I'd give my left nut for a modern version of Sundog though!)

20 years ago also there were alot of truly BAD games, games that were just torture to play, if 'play' was even a word that could be applied to such trash. These days, most any game you pick up will be plenty enjoyable; maybe not as good as other similar games, maybe not long enough, etc., but still playable.


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/17/2008 2:34:37 PM , Rating: 2
oh, and yes, I do know that Sundog is being worked on over at SourceForge, no need to point it out.


RE: So do something about it
By TMV192 on 1/16/2008 12:43:05 PM , Rating: 2
With the amount of players playing games online, I bet there can be a huge market for in-game advertising if the games were free. Ubisoft did it last year with older games that no one was buying anyway (they took it off once non-American users were downloading it)


RE: So do something about it
By kattanna on 1/16/2008 9:57:37 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
offset the $50 I have to drop just to have the game in the first place


and there is part of the problem

$50? honestly, if that amount is too much for you to pay for hours of entertainment, then dont

what is it with people nowadays who honestly feel everything should be handed to them free of charge, and free of consequences of their actions?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By MPE on 1/16/2008 10:19:01 AM , Rating: 1
Comparing gas prices and the general economy to a video game purchase is just nonsensical


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:01:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why?
The same reason that the F22 didn't cost less to develop than a biplane?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 4:54:29 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, my comparison was not gas equals games which is ludicrous. I was stating that prices of other things effect the prices of other things if you have $100 of "leisure" money and the gas prices go up you lose some of that leisure money.

As far as a biplane and f22 didn't cost less to develop? Duh!
The comparison would be development.

Which was harder to develop a plane with virtually tech aids such as CAD, computers for virtual testing and a vast prior wealth of prior history or a simple machine that was built by trial and error and few good examples to go by?


RE: So do something about it
By MPE on 1/16/2008 12:21:22 PM , Rating: 2
Does your and parent's paycheck depend on video games pricing like the gas prices and the state of the economy?
Does your city budget have a line item for video games in their yearly budget?
Does your dad get a tax break based on gas prices?
Does your parents consider a car based on video game prices?
Does the leader of the free world sends thousands of 17-24 year old to fight for video game prices?
Does congress approve of sale of arms, including nuclear, based on video game prices?

Do you want me to keep going?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 12:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
reverse your questions the other way around.
My taxes effect my quality of life

My wages effect my quality of life

The price of one thing effects the price of another

I think the term I'm looking for is kind of new its called economics.

One thing always effects another. How about the cost of energy versus the efficiency of a vehicle?

You can keep asking me questions and I'll answer them one by one if your happy (when I come back from work).

BTW: I wouldn't doubt my city has a line item budget for video games (in the form of solitare for windows)

Software which wasn't a huge item in the days of Tetris


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 12:41:39 PM , Rating: 1
I don't know why this discussion has anything to do with price. Consumers pay what they think is a fair price and companies market their products at what they think the consumers (as a whole) are willing to pay. If the price is too high the marketer will have to lower it. It's the simple law of supply and demand. There's no need to even discuss that here.

The other interesting tidbit that keeps me thinking is the pirates these company executives argue that are costing them money in reality probably don't cost them nearly as much as they are claiming. The simple fact is those people who choose to play pirated games in all likelihood would never have bought their product in the first place. And there are others who after playing the game might choose to purchase the game or convince others to purchase it based on their experience. If the game is a good one, you can see the possibility of a positive trickle down effect if the situation is handled properly.

Also, Steam regularly screens out duplicate product key's online. If someone is playing with a duplicate key, prevent them from getting the full experience.

There are many roads companies can take to improve there bottom line without affecting their relationship with customers. If Paris Hilton can make money with no talent then companies should be able to as well.


RE: So do something about it
By superkdogg on 1/17/2008 1:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with your post quite a lot.

Point 1. People playing pirate copies |= Number of sales lost. It's not even close. Many of those people are not even in the US and wouldn't even have the ability to purchase the product. Not to mention the number of 12 year olds who can't afford it or their parents won't let them play.

Point 2. Utilize the other revenue streams. If Targus is trying to sell me a lappy bag while my level loads instead of some dumb frozen screenshot, I'm ok with that. Nvidia is already telling me about 'the way it's meant to be played' while the game loads.... The obvious comparison here is television. Cable fees are for premium content and even on cable the majority of revenue is advertising. I honestly would rather see all the cars in a game be Fords or "This map is brought to you by your friends at Delta. Fly with us" to me, as a relatively unwealthy person those are good ideas. If somebody has the extra money to pay for non-ad games, that's fine and let them do so. Let the two groups play together online and have one group be able to stare at a building, while in the 'free version' the building has a huge Verizon Wireless ad. I'd actually argue that the ad-supported version is more true to real-life.

I don't support pirating, but I similarly don't support studios crying about the way things used to be while refusing to adapt. The physical disk that you walk out the door with is not the game anymore. The download that you got and the other people you play with online is the game now. Charging $50 for the disk is dinosaurish. Charge me $10 and sell advertising or allow me to buy ad-free for $50. Offerring products for only one price point is antiquated, and studios should create more flexibility. Even music has adapted somewhat and television has really adapted with web-only broadcasts and other enhancements.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/17/2008 1:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you.


RE: So do something about it
By derwin on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By ikkeman on 1/16/2008 11:43:01 AM , Rating: 5
so if you can't afford something, it's ok to steal it ???
The other choice - don't buy it doesn't even register ???

I am in a very similar situation (more rent, less bills) and do buy the games (don't care about music - radio is good enough).
How: I save. Save a penny everyday and that shit. Yeah, it did take me a while to get the money, but I now play my very own (and rather honest) game.

Stop whining about not having the money, at least you're worm in the winter and have pre-packaged food in your house!


RE: So do something about it
By derwin on 1/16/2008 4:24:10 PM , Rating: 2
I am in NO way saying its ok, or justified. I am telling you why I would do it if I did.
Theft is bad, granted, but I just can't seem to care when I consider who I would be stealing from.

And I understand you on the penny pinching. I do it for other entertainment, but at the cost of my abilty to ever really afford any games.

P.S., if I were to have stolen games, it would be relatively few, and mostly they are the ones you could only find at used game shops anyway.


RE: So do something about it
By sh3rules on 1/16/2008 12:34:29 PM , Rating: 5
Games like the original Deus Ex are rare; those games that offer many hours of entertainment for the price. I find fault with someone who can afford games but still gets them for free. I would never pirate games since I can afford some, but I wouldn't count as a "loss" a pirated game from someone who never would've bought it in the first place.

The analogy of stealing a car is completely wrong, and is little more than corporate propaganda. The industry doesn't care so much about intellectual property, and more about the mighty dollar (which is what industries worry about anyway). It would be a different thing if there were a finite number of games available, or if the number of pirated copies equated lost sales -which by any stretch of the imagination will never be the case.


RE: So do something about it
By murphyslabrat on 1/16/2008 1:16:05 PM , Rating: 2
The reason you don't go to a movie theater every night is because of the cost of doing so. However, if you could sneak in when you don't have the money, then there would be no incentive to get the money.

Lost sales are not just on the immediate product, they are also on parallel and future products: enough time goes by without you playing a new game, and you will buy one. If those games are available for free, then there is no reason for you to want to save/spend money for them.

Furthermore, with video-games offering 10-15 hours of gameplay for single-player, that comes out to about $3-5 an hour for entertainment. Now, when you have a fun multiplayer game, like Counter-Strike...I spent $3 at Value Village (a thrift shop)on an unactivated, used copy of Half-Life, and that registered as a HL: Platinum Edition, with Counter-strike. Normally, it would cost $10-$20 for that, but this was the single greatest deal I have ever had. Now logging in more than 60 hours, it would beat the theater for price/entertainment at $100!


RE: So do something about it
By nvalhalla on 1/16/2008 2:26:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
if you could sneak in when you don't have the money, then there would be no incentive to get the money.


Yes, piracy keeps me from getting a new job. As I can steal games, I now have no incentive to get more money....

I have played games I don't own, generally borrowed from someone else, which I don't consider stealing. I do so because I can't drop $50 on a new game when it comes out to see if I like it. I usually play it for an hour of two, lose interest and never play it again (ie Hellgate) I would be very upset over spending that much money on a game for a few hours of play. If it's a game I really like (ie HL2) AND the price drops to $30 or less, then I'll buy it.

I also don't tend to go to the theater for the same reason, I wait for rental on Netflix. I can't justify spending $7 for 90 minutes of entertainment either.


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 2:30:49 PM , Rating: 1
You forgot to add <sarcasm></sarcasm> to your post. The holier than thou folk will miss it otherwise.


RE: So do something about it
By hondaman on 1/17/2008 3:12:33 AM , Rating: 2
You think THOSE bills are rough... just wait till you get a social life and a girlfriend.

You havent seen nothin yet son.


RE: So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:25:15 AM , Rating: 2
Ok, just take a few deep breaths. Relax.

I never said I wanted anything free of charge. And I certainly never said I wanted my actions to be free of any consequence. I don't, however, like paying $50 for a game that yields 5-10 hours of entertainment, only to throw it on the shelf. It's rare to find a game that provides countless hours of entertainment, but for those that do, I'm more than willing to spend $50. But less expensive is always better (to me), and if I could save $10 and have to see some unobtrusive advertisements, I'm all for it.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/2008 10:33:09 AM , Rating: 1
I have to agree. In reality, the prices that are being charged for video games and computer games right now are way too high for what you are getting.

If something is a massively-multiplayer online RPG, yeah, it's worth the per-month costs usually (World of Warcraft as an example of a game worth the money).
However, most 'side-scrolling' and 'adventure' games are not worth that amount of money. I was playing Psychonauts free on GameTap recently and while I admit that it is one heck of a game..... it is not worth the $50 dollars I read that it cost when the game first came out.

The $20 dollars they are asking now is much more reasonable, but still a little high..... $15 dollars would be about what I would pay for it. Same thing for Tomb Raider: Legend. A great game, but at the $40 dollars it was when it first came out, too expensive for what you get, especially considering that it is SHORT AS HECK!


RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:04:14 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I have to agree. In reality, the prices that are being charged for video games and computer games right now are way too high for what you are getting.
Maybe you should start a development company and make them cheaper, then? Think of how much money you'd make by charging less since it only costs like $1000 to develop a game?


RE: So do something about it
By d0gb0y on 1/16/2008 12:17:24 PM , Rating: 2
If you think a price of a game to the value of re-play (or what ever your criteria is) then DON'T BUY IT. But you can't steal it either. If you steal, your saying, "Yeah, this is worth my time, but I'm a cheap bastard!"


RE: So do something about it
By sweetsauce on 1/16/2008 10:47:29 AM , Rating: 4
Heres an idea, if you don't feel the $50 isn't worth the amount of time you enjoy it, then don't buy it. Doesn't mean you're entitled to steal it.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/16/2008 10:52:11 AM , Rating: 2
We have a winner.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/16/2008 12:31:45 PM , Rating: 5
Or make a decision and say, "I like the look of this game, but not at $50. I think $X is reasonable."
Then pick the game up in a month or two (or six, or twelve) when it has reached $X.


RE: So do something about it
By PitViper007 on 1/16/2008 12:54:31 PM , Rating: 2
Which is what I usually end up doing. Hmmm. Black & White was great at the $10 I spent on it.....


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/18/2008 7:46:57 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it great to find a classic at low cost, like Black and White (I enjoyed the sequel too), Dawn of war (I picked up the anthology cheap and now have like 3 copies of DOW, great for your own lan parties too).

I am sorry to hear another poster stating that they can't find older games. Some of the older games have way more replayability and content...


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By JustTom on 1/16/2008 11:57:36 AM , Rating: 2
You have no other recourse? None at all?


RE: So do something about it
By Netscorer on 1/16/2008 11:20:15 AM , Rating: 2
Why are we so deadlocked on the $50 price tag? Games get cheaper almost every month after the initial release and most of the games lose more then 50% of their cost over the first year even before they get into a bargain bin. There are tons of great games that run perfectly on even a budget PCs and cost no more then $15-$20.
So if someone can't realistically justify spending $50 for a brand new game, does not mean that he/she has moral justification to steal it. It's like with cars. Everyone has to drive one. But not everyone can afford buying a Lexus or BMW. That does not mean there are no Kias and Saturns that still run great and get you to your destinations just as good.


RE: So do something about it
By robinthakur on 1/16/2008 11:13:25 AM , Rating: 3
I think the people who frequent Dailytech are either incredibly naive or virtuous or else just lying their asses off if they claim that they've never pirated any games. This issue is so widespread I find it hard to believe. You won't cure piracy by reducing prices, let me tell you that, because the best price from a user's level is free. Nothing beats that. You don't have to leave the house because it all comes down the broadband connection. I would say in this case that Infinity Ward needs to make it a complete hassle to pirate and play the game (especially online, though this should be obvious) which normally puts most people off piracy because they're lazy and don't want to search the internet to find a workaround or crack.

The majority of the anti piracy methods i've ever seen do not hurt or prevent piracy. They penalise and antagonise end users. Game Server authenticated keys are the only way to reduce piracy but the big release groups will usually find a way.

Piracy will usually be worse on PC because users are necessarily more technical and you don't need the added expense and hassle of mod chips/voided warranties.

The mentality you are having to confront are users who pirate all games, all music and all movies and can't remember doing anything else. I personally only buy Blu-ray movies and PS3 games because all the rest can be obtained other ways (I own a Wii, 360, PS3, PS2, PCs). Having said that, I haven't downloaded, bought or played anything on the pc recently (Like within the last 2 years) because even downloading the games became more hassle than I could be bothered with especially as I'd play each game for maybe an hour and then never again. If you are smart enough to use google and to understand how to crack games then its up to the publishers to deter pirates in other ways. Appealing to the public's sense of decency is pointless because the public do not care about the earnings of games publishers/music companies, they care only about getting caught and fined/jailed (remote chance) or where it will download from the fastest...


RE: So do something about it
By InsaneGain on 1/16/2008 3:00:05 PM , Rating: 3
It is basically right out of first year psychology. Generally, if people can steal something without suffering any consequences, they will do so. It is self-maximizing behavior. They will then come up with all kinds of excuses legitimizing why they should every right. I hear the exact same excuses for pirating music: price too high, people can't afford it, the quality isn't worth paying. These same people also happily buy thousands of dollars worth of computer/audio/video hardware to consume the entertainment. If they could somehow steal the hardware without consequence, they would do this as well, and claim (and maybe delude themselves) that "the hardware is too expensive and the companies are making too much money, the quality isn't any good, I can't afford it.". The reality is that, in general, peoples' behavior is guided by very primitive ethics concepts. People don't commit acts that are personally beneficial but destructive to society because they fear sanctions by the authorities. It’s the only thing that keeps society from collapsing. They then delude themselves that they actually are guided by lofty ethics. If stealing intellectual property had consistent consequences, then people would again start paying for it, the laws of supply and demand would determine price level and quantity sold, incentives would return, and the industry would flourish and innovate.


RE: So do something about it
By killerb255 on 1/16/2008 5:40:42 PM , Rating: 3
NOW we have a winner.

It's harsh, but it's true.

There's a zone that morals and ethics tend to cross--a zone that basically makes them one and the same. Self-maximization is that zone. People want to get the most out of life as they can yielding as little of their own resources as possible.

Sociopathy would be the next logical step: sociopaths don't have any fear of moral, ethical, or legal consequences (other than getting caught and being taken away from the things they like).

Also, some use car theft as an analogy during discussions about piracy. I think "car cloning" would be a better analogy. If there was a such thing as a cloning device that could clone automobiles, then of course the automotive industry would cry foul.

I think there's a far less moral impact in society from "cloning" rather than flat-out "stealing." If you steal someone's car, you now have it, but the person you stole it from doesn't. To the victim, it's an inconvenience on a number of levels.

On the other hand, if you clone someone's car, do you think the vehicle's driver would even care?

That's what's going on in the 21st century with the creation and sales of data. Many people don't see moral wrongdoing with intellectual theft (which, to them, is nothing but cloning).


RE: So do something about it
By xsilver on 1/16/2008 7:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
totally agree,
but here's a crazy thought - If all the piracy in the world stopped overnight what would happen?

1) everybody would buy the game/cd/dvd
2) we'd have millions of youths wondering the streets with nothing to do?

#1 would lead to some very rich dev's but would that necessarily reduce the price?
#2 can lead to some very bad things (read:riots) so maybe the mpaa/riaa/game devs are just paying for some babysitting of society? :P


RE: So do something about it
By superkdogg on 1/17/2008 1:47:56 PM , Rating: 2
You're mostly right, but you miss one key point. People only fear sanctions if they are relatively sure they'll get caught.

Nobody drives 150 mph because you'd get arrested. Everybody goes 5-10 over because even though it's illegal you don't get busted.

Similarly, downloading every available game and burning them for your own resale is probably going to get you notices and/or arrested. DL'ing a couple games is probably going to keep you under the radar and you won't get in any trouble.

I guess the oranges/apples comparison comes down to the number of people hurt by 'slightly' illegal behavior like driving 10 mph over or pirating a couple games. There are probably a significant number of people killed because of the increased speed. There are probably some developers out of work and/or shareholders or execs that don't get return on investment because of piracy.

The devil of this issue is deciding where to draw the lines. 10 mph over is illegal, but so is 1 mph. Pirating a ton of games is also illegal, but so is just one song. As a society people need to realistically assign the value they place on the work people do.

If you ask me, studios need to step back and look at a bigger picture of US culture (since that's where the businesses behind many games are HQ'd). They basic gripe is, "Hey, no fair. People aren't as honest as we want them to be and it costs us." Well, no duh, Sherlock. Get in line behind victims of violent crime, law enforcement, and everybody else who deals with societal ills. While you're at it, come up with a feasible solution rather than just whining.


RE: So do something about it
By theprodigalrebel on 1/16/2008 12:55:26 PM , Rating: 3
I live in India. Not much of a gamer but I am a big movie fan. Until last year, I'd rent DVDs and rip them to my hard-drive (for repeat viewings). Reason? DVD pricing here was exactly the same as North American pricing - $10 to $15. Buying movies was expensive and I rarely did it. I was exactly the kind of person that gave people like the MPAA nightmares.

I'd walk into the biggest CD/DVD stores here and see barely 2-5 units in stock - and they'd sit there on the shelf for weeks (or months) before the store finally cleared their stock. Everyone's opinion was, "Why should we pay American prices when we make several times less money than they do?"

Sometime in early '07, the industry totally changed their strategy. $1 for low-budget/commercially-unsuccessful movies and about $3 for AAA-certified blockbusters. Walk into a store now and it isn't rare to see families walking out with anywhere from 5-20 DVDs.

It's all about finding the right price. Some people believe a pirate will always be a pirate because 'why pay even $1 when you can get it for free?' Piracy is wrong but if you want to fix it, quit the morality campaign, slash prices and watch your product fly off the shelves.


RE: So do something about it
By RedStar on 1/16/2008 2:48:26 PM , Rating: 2
well at least India has NA market funding the development costs of movies/games.

yet another reason why we still see high prices here.


RE: So do something about it
By ZapatistasLL on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By InsaneGain on 1/16/2008 3:29:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Has anyone ever considered that piracy is perhaps making more good than harm ???

Piracy artificially lowers legitimate demand for a product that society actually values. This sends incorrect market signals, and incorrectly leads to lower investment in terms of talent and capital in the industry. That is economically destructive. One only has to examine the undeniable economic failure of communism to see the results of sending artificial and incorrect market signals. I think the support of piracy can be seen as a form of socialism.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy music/software. They are not essential services. The price and profits are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Just as anyone else in free society, entertainment companies have every right, and are expected to ask the highest price they can for their product. These signals will attract more resources to the industry, more competition, and ultimately the competition will lower prices and create more selection. If you are interested, read about "the invisible hand" in the world renown "The Wealth of Nations" by economist Adam Smith.


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 3:42:23 PM , Rating: 3
It depends on who you're talking about. The vast majority come from third world countries that don't have the money to pay what we in the United States pay for those goods. Even in the U.S. the majority of these people I would say are kids, college student, and those will less than adequate economic means to support a steady diet of new music cd's, DVD, and video games. So saying piracy creates an artificial demand is a bit of a stretch. Some of it may be true, but not to the scale the industry wants us to believe. The simple fact is most of these people could not afford or are willing to buy all this media at once. In a way the person you are quoting is right. The companies that produce the intellectual content are getting much more exposure than they would have otherwise gotten without the medium of illegal copying of media.


RE: So do something about it
By ZapatistasLL on 1/16/2008 9:16:19 PM , Rating: 2

Well I disagree with that. You see people tend to count piracy as a loss. i.e. 100.000 sold 100.000 pirated, if there was no piracy one would sell 200.000, WRONG !!

The fact of the matter is that the 100.000 people who pirated the music CD or the game would have never bought it in the first place (or a very large percentage of them), in reality things that you value you buy.. things that in your brain you do not attach any monetary (=real world value) to you do not wish to buy or spend money for..

let me give you an analogy.. if I buy a game, I play it, finish it and then (after time t) I give it to you, and then you play it... total number of customers 1,
if I buy the game and copy it and give it to you, total number of customers (shocking...still 1 ) only difference is there is no delay time t between the two of us..
BIG DEAL ....
The difference is companies believe that if they exclude us from having it, most of us will be forced to buy it.. wrong. .
Most of you argue that if you cannot afford $50 for a game wait for a couple of months and then spend $10 on it second hand... That is my friends the real value of the thing.. less than 10 bux, if the company knows that their product will worth $10 after 60 days... why release it at $50 ?
So it is not the "stealing" that annoys people it is a class thing.. I can afford it now.. and I will play it now, and you cannot afford it so you will have to wait 60 or so days... and I would be annoyed if you got it now and for free!!!!!! whoa.... a fantastic argument...

People have been copying (i.e. pirating movies) for a long time now... Movie studios still make a ton of money and then some.. you know why.. because we like going to the movies... we like the experience.. not just the film...!!!!

At what point do we stop justifying everything with competition and free market nonsense...????


RE: So do something about it
By robinthakur on 1/17/2008 5:50:27 AM , Rating: 2
Having come back to actually buying games for the PS3, 360, Wii and Blu Ray recently it feels like this is a really expensive hobby whereas before where I just used to download all my content it wasn't. Mind you, to some, the cost of the hardware is considered expensive. I no longer download and burn thousands of games, which makes me more discerning. It does make me realise unfortunately that content is generally overvalued. In this case, the legal solution is just to rent and not buy, which is more affordable.

Piracy, in general, only helps popularise a platform in certain specific circumstances (e.g. the ubiquitous modded PS1/PS2) but not for fledgling platforms such as e.g. Dreamcast which have not yet achieved critical mass. Which was deccimated and ultimately destroyed by piracy. How and why this happens depends very much on the sophistication of the platforms' users (ability to modchip/crack/available bandwidth/ease of duplication) and also on the growth of the internet. I daresay the challenge of being able to mod a machine and copy games is also alluring especially when you get free content at the end of it. The PC ranks quite low on its difficulty of pirating content (and most of the game playing users are highly technical), simply because all protection is done in easy to break software and so many other people are also pirating games that finding helpful resources is a no brainer. Finding this information was ALOT more difficult in the past before the internet and broadband trust me! Ever since the internet first came about, people became used to not paying for content.

It also depends on whether the duplicate made is on an equal level to the original or whether compromises have been made. Now that digital transfers provides (99% of the time) a 'perfect' copy, people are less likely to pay for what they can get for free. Most people are not so picky, they just want a best-fit solution which is priced lowest and convenience. The more people that do it merely reinforces the 'social-proof' concept so its definitely not a good idea to heavily publicise the fact that maybe 98% of people play pirated copies of COD4 online because the 2% who bought the game will likely emulate them in the future and not bother paying. As with many things, the Media can heavily influence society's behaviour here. The problem with piracy now is not that it exists but that it has become mainstream, accessible to all.


RE: So do something about it
By psypher on 1/16/2008 9:59:41 AM , Rating: 2
Back when Tetris came out in the 80's on the good old NES, I plopped down my $44 for it happily. With inflation, that is way more than your $50 for COD4. And COD4 had a hell of a lot more development money sunk into it (although tetris is still one of the greatest games ever). The price of video games has come down over the years while the cost of making them has gone up. Sounds like we got a good deal.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 10:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
I got the feeling that they are using a copies sold versus copies being played ratio to figure out the projected theft rate.

After all, if you sold 1,000,000 copies and have 1,000,000 playing it the probability that every owner of the game is playing it at the exact same time are pretty much nil.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:05:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, no, it isn't. Not when you take into account that in a household, you might have MANY people playing under the same account number: i.e grandma, grandpa, mom, dad, the kids.
And which current games are there that allow this?


RE: So do something about it
By SeeManRun on 1/16/2008 10:41:18 AM , Rating: 2
Log onto a torrent site and punch in a new game. The amount of people downloading it is disturbing, given that the number you see is just from one torrent site and only at that moment.


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/16/2008 12:51:00 PM , Rating: 2
Looking at a couple of sites deliberately to gauge the traffic level suggests numerous torrents (not all are likely to be real). The number of downloads varies from a few for fakes to just under 5,000 downloads. So I suspect the total amount of piracy is below the 100k mark (at present...).


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/18/2008 7:48:52 AM , Rating: 2
I forgot to include people who would download it to sell it illegitimately.

http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601887/crab-exchang...


RE: So do something about it
By Proteusza on 1/16/2008 10:02:27 AM , Rating: 2
I really hope they dont do that.

if I pay for a game, I pay to not see advertisements. I dont mind ads placed tastefully on billboards etc that dont interfere with the game or dont look out of place.

But if I'm forced to look into a distracting advert, when I already gave you money? I wont buy any games from said developer again.

In the same vein, I dont like it when publishers force you to watch an intro movie advertising them. EA games is always guilty of this. I gave you your pint of blood, I know who made the game, let me play it in peace!

What they need to do to stop PC game piracy is switch to a proprietary format, such as a special DVD. A game should check to see whether the dvd is a valid special game dvd. I'm aware games could still be pirated using inventive techniques, but it should deter the casual pirates, while not really inconveniencing anyone or requiring invasion of computers.

Another way is to introduce game dongles. A gamer purchases licenses, which are encrypted and stored on the dongle. He takes this dongle everywhere with him, and can then play his games whereever he goes (depending on whether he can get the game media of course). It could also store preferred key settings etc.


RE: So do something about it
By SirLucius on 1/16/2008 10:11:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Another way is to introduce game dongles. A gamer purchases licenses, which are encrypted and stored on the dongle. He takes this dongle everywhere with him, and can then play his games whereever he goes (depending on whether he can get the game media of course). It could also store preferred key settings etc.


That's how a lot of the more expensive audio and video software packages work. The program only launches if you have the dongle plugged into the computer. While it's still possible to crack and run a pirated copy, it's more work for the pirate and more work for the end user to get things up and running. More work for the end user = less people pirating. Part of the the reason piracy is so prominent is because it's mind-numbingly easy to do. Introduce some work into the equation and you're sure to see the numbers fall.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 10:23:14 AM , Rating: 3
I think the idea is great with one caveat trading dongles.

Ahhh, I can see it now....

I'll play with your dongle, if you play with mine.

or

For sale: one slightly used dongle. It kept me happy on lonely nights but I must part with it.


RE: So do something about it
By Proteusza on 1/16/2008 10:23:34 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, the reason I know about the dongle system is that my company uses it for their software.

I mean, you could bundle them will all new PCs. They wont be that expensive, compared to how much games sell for. If someone buys a PC but already owns a dongle, he can transfer his licenses to the new dongle, if he wants.


By wetwareinterface on 1/16/2008 11:17:21 AM , Rating: 3
by SirLucius on January 16, 2008 at 10:11 AM

That's how a lot of the more expensive audio and video software packages work. The program only launches if you have the dongle plugged into the computer. While it's still possible to crack and run a pirated copy, it's more work for the pirate and more work for the end user to get things up and running. More work for the end user = less people pirating. Part of the the reason piracy is so prominent is because it's mind-numbingly easy to do. Introduce some work into the equation and you're sure to see the numbers fall.

the problem is the dongle system absolutely doesn't work. it gets cracked just the same as a serial number/cd copy protection method scheme does and doesn't take any longer to crack. all you do with a dongle method is alienate your paying customers and make it harder for legitimate purchasers to use their own legal software. the pirates and downloaders meanwhile have a simple installer and no dongle hassles at all and no dongle cpu overhead.
cubase dongle - cracked
waves native ilok dongle - cracked
etc...

in fact it gets even worse, legitimate customers run cracked versions of the software to avoid using the dongle themselves most of the time. just go to the waves web forums and look at the war between moderators and frustrated users. the moderators keep deleting posts advocating use of the crack to eliminate all the bugs from the ilok system and the mods keep busy deleting the posts because there is always someone asking for a solution to their issues they are having with the dongle software and other fed up users are saying just use the crack.

most vendors are moving away from ilok and dongles anyway as they simply found out it doesn't work.


RE: So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:29:23 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I don't want annoying ads all over the place. I thought it was assumed that I was referring to unobtrusive advertisements.


RE: So do something about it
By nvalhalla on 1/16/2008 2:42:11 PM , Rating: 2
I wish there were MORE advertisements in video games. When I'm walking down a side alley, sneaking up for that close-quarters kill, I want to see Time magazine and Wall Street Journal newspapers littering the ground. Big ads for Coca-Cola and McDonald's on the billboards. This introduces more realism to the game, which I think is great.

That said, I also don't want to have to watch a commercial every 10 min of gameplay or have a scrolling banner at the top of my screen. Unless it made the game free...


RE: So do something about it
By MBlueD on 1/16/2008 10:02:27 AM , Rating: 2
How about providing the option to e-purchase only a serial key that would allow legitimate off/online play for people who already 'pirated' the game ? The reduction in price may entice some of them to go legit. I don't know exactly how much packaging/manual/media etc contribute to the cost of the game, but I think a CoD4 serial at 25$-30$ is a good price. I paid 22$ for a serial to a game that isn't even finished yet (Mount&Blade 0.904) - and it was totally worth it :).
Just a thought...


RE: So do something about it
By Rockjock51 on 1/16/2008 10:18:50 AM , Rating: 2
I got my key off direct2drive... yeah it was the same price as going to the store and getting the game, but I already had the game on my computer and enjoyed it. Make games worth buying and people usually buy them.


RE: So do something about it
By joemoedee on 1/16/2008 10:02:44 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
To get some revenue out of those folks, display in-lobby advertisements


Then you'll have those that paid for the game complain about having to see the ads. It's a catch-22.

Personally, I think that a Steam type service is really going to be the only distribution method to go with, as far as PC gaming goes. That gives the PC game publishers the best control against piracy. (Even though that itself is not foolproof, is a better means than the other copy protection means used in the past)


RE: So do something about it
By johnbuk on 1/16/2008 10:25:51 AM , Rating: 2
Uggg...I hope more developers don't go to steam...if I'm going to invest in playing a game for hours, I always buy it, but there are a couple of steam games I've bought and then downloaded pirated versions of just so I can play them offline while traveling.

I don't pretend to have a solution, but some of the protection schemes that they're using now have encouraged me to seek pirated versions that I otherwise wouldn't have thought of doing simply in order to play a game that I already purchased because I was sick of jumping through hoops trying to get the fricking game to run.


RE: So do something about it
By Frallan on 1/16/2008 10:36:41 AM , Rating: 2
Ive purchased Civ4 Civ4 BtS and CCC and theorange box via Steam and as long as i can play online and off line and Steam doesnt screw me Im happy.

I bought all of this bc it has replay value - I have treid CoH4 (yes pirated) and deinstalled it - it has absolutley no replay value for me I CBA to finish it even.

All of this just to tell I live as I preach. If you replay a game or you play it alot - then its a nobrainer that you should have to pay for it. There is a company that has succeded with this beyond all imagination - Blizzard. Copy their Server functionallity and you will have a conceptt here ppl pay & play.

/F


RE: So do something about it
By Frallan on 1/16/2008 10:39:57 AM , Rating: 2
CCC=CS:S sorry typo


RE: So do something about it
By kextyn on 1/16/2008 11:09:31 AM , Rating: 2
Holy messed up acronyms!

I'm assuming you meant CoD4. I downloaded it and beat the game as well. I agree, there isn't much replay value at all to the single player campaign. But you know what i did? I went and bought it for the XBox 360, beat it on veteran (1000/1000 on achievements), and have spent at least 20-30 hours a week playing online since Christmas. So I think there is plenty of replay value...if you have a valid copy to play multiplayer.


RE: So do something about it
By eye smite on 1/16/2008 10:05:37 AM , Rating: 2
I understand the complaint and agree with it. However, they could focus on securing the software more against piracy. It doesn't do any good to complain if you're not willing to look for a solution. On top of that, I'd almost bet my bottom dollar there are people out there working on or have cracked console games using their pc and given copies to their friends. Software piracy has been going on like this since at least the days of the commodore 64, and probably longer. You think tney'll ever learn to secure their product better before launching it?


RE: So do something about it
By danskmacabre on 1/16/2008 10:05:42 AM , Rating: 2
Or just distribute games like steam and cut out physical distribution.
It should cut down piracy by quite a bit that way (correct me if I'm wrong).


RE: So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:32:00 AM , Rating: 2
But Steam = Anti-Christ.


RE: So do something about it
By danskmacabre on 1/16/2008 10:35:32 AM , Rating: 2
I really like it.
I can register a game to my account and reinstall via download nps.

Has never failed me and easy to use.
I much prefer that media to DVDs.

Why don't you like it?


RE: So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:52:20 AM , Rating: 2
I don't like that I have to have another piece of software running to run my game. I want to put in the disk (or an image of the disk), and play. I hate extra programs that eat my resources.

I also had a helluva time getting Steam to work with HL2. Downloading the update was a disaster, and then I had key issues - All with a retail copy of the game.

Since HL2, I vowed I would never buy/play any game that required Steam.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/2008 11:02:10 AM , Rating: 1
Get off the 'eating resources' bullshit. Steam uses almost NO memory in a non-dated computer and no CPU time while your game is playing.

If that is your ONLY whine about it, you have not used Steam to play a game or demo like I have, and don't realize that it sucks up almost no resources whatsoever.

As to the HL2 problems...... I don't think so. I downloaded that off Steam recently, had no problems getting it to install and no key issues.... and let's face facts: there are going to be some issues with the number of computers out there today with disparate configurations.

That is where most of the problems with HL2 and Steam were coming from, or people were running HL2 off a ISO image using something like Daemon Tools (which I personally use) and the Steam client went "WHOA!".... "Put in your real disk!"

Personally, I don't like the 'disc verification' systems that are out there today, and download cracks to get past them whenever possible (since I don't like having to swap discs to play games on my machine), but they are necessary right now.

I also don't like copy-protection systems like StarForce and other intrusive systems like that..... but a serial number online verification system is something that I can deal with, honestly.


RE: So do something about it
By MastermindX on 1/16/2008 1:10:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't like that I have to have another piece of software running to run my game. I want to put in the disk (or an image of the disk), and play. I hate extra programs that eat my resources.


We're sorry you didn't like the Windows Experience.

You're free to uninstall our product and reinstall your favorite flavor of DOS.

Microsoft Support Team

</sacarsm>

Yeah... it's another layer. But it's a layer you are well aware of.

Much better than StarForce that would run hidden and forced me to hack legitimately bought game only to be able to play them.


RE: So do something about it
By saiga6360 on 1/16/2008 10:47:53 AM , Rating: 2
Steam games have been ripped of Steam before so it is not really an effective solution. Come to think of it, nothing really is. By creating hindrances, you are just adding more challenges to those 'scene' groups. Software gets cracked eventually, hardware gets chipped eventually. The best you can do is to keep providing good products and leave law enforcement to law enforcement agencies.


RE: So do something about it
By Mitch101 on 1/16/2008 10:14:23 AM , Rating: 2
I am anti-pirate on games today. Most reputable and excellent game development companies offer enough of a trial version today to tell you if a game is good or not worth buying. The amount of time and work that go into most of these games is nothing short of astronomical. COD is one of those series of games. If your upset by the $50.00 price tag keep checking gogamer.com for a sale usually $35.00 while the game is still hot or wait a few months and the game eventually costs much less. The credits on video games is approaching that of movie studios that isn't cheap. Buy the darn game or wait till its in your price bracket.

Movies I feel the same about the price of a DVD or HD. However most movies once you have seen it are not really worth owning. No one other than a dude is impressed by your DVD collection. I don't buy the movie unless it has true replay value. But I do buy them. Rental usually works very well for me though.

CD's or Music - If and when they finally get rid of DRM I might climb on board. I still see this as 4 sweaty idiots in a garage with a recording device. There are no gaffers, lighting crews, stunt people, crashed cars, multiple locations, video, dts, ac3, alternate audio, directors commentary, special features, etc to make a Music CD so why are they priced as high as movies? Then tell people if they rip it to my MP3 player they are breaking the law? I think Music artist should just create their own sites and let us buy direct and cut out the RIAA all together. As I understand it a music artist makes 5 cents for each song downloaded. I would gladly pay 50 cents directly to the artist for their music DRM free. 10 times more than the music company pays the artist. The artist then needs 10 times less downloads to make the same coin. The Greatfull dead have been one of the most profitable musical groups of all times and they encouraged people to bring recorders to concerts. This should send a clear message that the Internet allows artists to go direct cutting out the middle men. One group worked on donations alone and it did very well. If they need a transport to get the word out I hear the RIAA messed up the internet radio stations let them be the transport because more and more receivers today are adding internet radio streaming. Im also sure the radio stations would be looking to cut deals with the artists too since the RIAA recently dropped a high price tag for music on them. Maybe idiots like Prince shouldn't try sueing their fans but going direct instead and cutting out the RIAA. Hey Prince RIAA = PRINCE IS STILL A SLAVE!


RE: So do something about it
By inperfectdarkness on 1/16/2008 10:32:31 AM , Rating: 2
it's an easy fix.

aggressively kick/ban hacked encryption keys.

it will also have the effct of slimming the resale market--since used games could have hacked keys.

bottom line, though...gamers are happy at the $20 price point. you didn't see that many hacked copies of serious sam. the reason a game like ut2k4 is still being played so much is because of all the downloadable user-created content it has. the price:playtime ratio goes completely out the window when you compare that $20 game (if you can find it) to new $50 games that get played for 2 weeks...then sold.


RE: So do something about it
By ET on 1/16/2008 11:17:51 AM , Rating: 2
Good point. It's probably not the piracy, but the fact that PC gamers want a $20 price point, while console gamers are fine with $60. Makes developing for the console more desirable.


RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 10:55:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you know the players are using a cracked/stolen key, kick them off!!!
Seriously... If they actually know that 100 people are logged in with the same key and don't ban it, then it's their problem...


RE: So do something about it
By ioKain on 1/16/2008 10:58:00 AM , Rating: 2
COD 4 is more than worth the $50 I paid for the game. I've already gotten my money out of it and will continue to do so for another year or so. If $50 is to much for you to handle you need to find another hobby, try frisbee golf, bet thats cheap.


RE: So do something about it
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/16/2008 11:01:50 AM , Rating: 2
I think they know since they know how many PC players are playing online, and they know how many copies of the game were purchased. So they know that they sold 100 copies, but 200 people are playing online with PC games. Just simple arithmetic. They probably have no mechanism built to determine who the pirated players are.

I like the idea of using in game advertising to offset the cost to purchasers, but not to allow pirateers to pirate. That just keeps the price up for you.


RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:07:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They probably have no mechanism built to determine who the pirated players are.
I own CoD4 for PC. I entered a serial number when I purchased it. If they don't have a mechanism, it is only because they have chosen not to.


RE: So do something about it
By Polynikes on 1/16/2008 12:36:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
“What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).”

Seriously, these people should not be ABLE to get online in the game.


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 12:46:53 PM , Rating: 2
You figure 90% of them were from China or Eastern Europe and wouldn't have paid or even afforded $50 for the game. Maybe the publishers can build a reputation in those countries so in the future as their economies start to catch up to ours they can market their and make a real presence.


PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 11:57:32 AM , Rating: 3
PC Games will be extinct before too long... unless a viable / non intrusive copy protection is developed. It sickens me to hear people whine and complain about the cost of a game. Sure, if the game sucks, I'd be upset too, but I try to be a smart shopper. I may buy 3 - 4 games a year, so $200 is not bad. (This year has cost me a bit more with all of the A-List games that were released.)

A Game like CoD4 pays for itself, for me, after playing the single player, but more importantly, the first 10 hours online. After that I am in bonus heaven! (Even as short as the single player campaign was, which took me about 10 hours, that's about $5 an hour for some gaming fun. You can't sit there and tell me that's something to complain about!

I do, also, love the fact that mod tools come out for online communities create more maps and game elements. I hope that never goes away. For a game like this, I'd pay $80 if the developer support is there for the mod community. Because of the mod community, I enjoyed Half Life for over 4 years!

Anyway, I hate to think that the Console will rule all one day, as I cannot play a FPS game with a controller! (Maybe get a keyboard mouse peripheral and I'd be more inclined).

Maybe this is more of an argument for services such as "Games for Windows Live!." Who knows?...




By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 12:00:58 PM , Rating: 1
Also, just out of curiosity, and as an ex-smoker myself, I wonder how many people bitch and moan about the cost of a PC game as they chain-smoke while playing it and don't complain about the $7-$9 a pack they pay every day (thprice here in Chicago, IL)


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 12:15:50 PM , Rating: 2
Not likely and totally wrong. Just about everyone in the world uses PC's in their daily lives. If piracy was the problem then Studios would've stopped making movies a long time ago.


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 12:31:08 PM , Rating: 2
Bad analogy, PC Games do not have the revenue cycle motion pictures have. Motion Pictures have a theatrical release where the primary investment is (hopefully) returned and where profits are rare but realized in some cases.

DVD sales are the secondary source of revenue where the costs of converting Film to DVD is negligable, yet the revenue is in ADDITION to the theatrical gross. Also, films appeal to a mass audience, the PC Gaming industry is still considered a niche market. You don't hardly ever see a "million seller" in the PC world.

So, yes, my op is likely and more right than your rebuttable.


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 12:54:42 PM , Rating: 2
How do you figure when the number of PC's in this world reaches 1:1 with the total population? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Which do you think is worse, PC pirating from 3rd world countries like china and eastern europe, where they probably wouldn't have bought or afforded the games or resale of second hand console games that compete directly with new game releases and modded game consoles which let users play pirated console games? I'm sure most studio executives aren't as short sited as you. Additionally, Microsoft will not survive without the gaming community supporting it's operating systems. Do you think Microsoft will want software developers to stop making games for them? Do you think Microsoft (one of the biggest developers of windows based games) will stop developing games for themselves? Perhaps you need a little more time to think.


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 1:04:16 PM , Rating: 2
I think yoda said it best, "A pc on one's desk, makes them a gamer, it does not"

I am not sure I understand your thinking, or your arguement. PC games are not the driving force for Microsoft products. The percentage of PC Gamers is pretty low. Not too may people even own a PC that could run most of the games out there.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about China either. My original post merely stated that without a viable form of CP (Copy protection) developers are going to make games soley for the Console. And I even stated that a service such as "Games for Windows LIVE" might be one way.

That is why the majority of games that come on the PCs are "ports" of console developed games. Read the articles. There are plenty of interviews with developers, and many more mod community sites that echo what I wrote in my first post. Which basically is: Piracy is killing the PC Game industry.


By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 1:24:33 PM , Rating: 2
I appreciate your demeanor, but as long as the potential is there, no one in the world will tell you studios will stop making games for the millions of PC out there right now. Additionally, you have gaming genres such as MMORPG's and FPS that require mouse and keyboard interaction that could never make the move to solely consoles.

I bring up Microsoft because the only reason right now to upgrade to Vista is because it is the only operating system know to man to support DirectX 10. Other than that no one can think of a reason to upgrade to it. There is stiff competition from Linux and Mac OS and even, Windows XP that threaten Microsoft's position in the market as an OS developer. Having a solid core of enthusiasts and gamers supporting Vole will help ensure their status as market leader. This is where gaming is vital to them.

Just imaging how many pirated copies of windows and any other software you can think of it out there. The vast majority come from third world countries that can't afford or would never have bought their product to begin with.


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 1:14:30 PM , Rating: 1
And your arguement you make here and in an earlier post that said, "People who pirate games wouldn't have bought, or could not afford them in the first place" is utter horseshit. You obviously pirate software.

I bet you are like a guy I work with who mods every console he has, and pirates every game and / or movie that comes out feeling that he should not have to pay for anything, passing this warped mentality to his kids.


RE: PC Games will be extinct before too long...
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 1:28:03 PM , Rating: 1
I take back what I said about your demeanor. You don't know shit about me. I own a library of PC games all of them purchases which I started collecting before your balls ever dropped. I also own a ps1, ps2, ps3, wii, xbox, and consoles your mom told you about when you were still in diapers. So don't go about telling me you know me.


By enlil242 on 1/16/2008 2:48:04 PM , Rating: 2
Look, I apologize if I was mistaken, but the guy I referred to in my previous message says the exact same thing, so I am tired of hearing it as an arguemment. (Wasn't / couldn't buy it anyway, etc.)

Pong was my first console. So my list is Pong, Atari 2600, 5200, Coleco Vision, NES, Super NES, Geneis (and CD), PS1, Dreamcast, PS2, PS3, XBOX 1 and 360, PLus evey Graphics card known to man since the Moster 3D days)

The point of displaying my "list" is to say that I have invested thousands upon thousands in gadgetry so the cost of a game doesn't phase me as much as it seems it does to some in this discussion. That was what my original post was meant to convey. I may have misunderstood your arguement, but you were saying I was wrong.

In a nutshell I think you and I both agree that there should be a better method of preventing piracy.


PC price vs Console price
By irev210 on 1/16/2008 9:56:44 AM , Rating: 2
One of the coolest things behind PC games is the price.

PC games are often priced at about 39.99 where as console games are priced at 59.99.

One of the reasons why I buy PC games is it saves a good chunk of change.

What sort of blows my mind is -- you need a pretty high end system to play a game like CoD4 on the PC anyway. People cant spend the 39.99 for like 50+ hours of enjoyment? Not a bad deal if you ask me.




RE: PC price vs Console price
By michal1980 on 1/16/2008 10:14:18 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed, a 70 dollar keyboard, a 70 dollar mouse. connected to a pic with a 300 dollar video card.

but paying 40 bucks for a game. Thats just WRONG.


RE: PC price vs Console price
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: PC price vs Console price
By ioKain on 1/16/2008 11:22:28 AM , Rating: 3
Let's say a game last 20 hours. At 40 bucks you're basically paying $2 an hour for the game. To go to a movie theater your paying 10-15 depending on where you live. Figure the basic movie lasts 2 hours your paying 7 bucks an hour for entertainment. That game is sounding like a pretty good deal to me. Sounds like you should be harping at the movie industry instead of the gaming.

I paid 80 for my keyboard, 60 for my mouse. Will probably have a new mouse sometime this year. I will also probably go through 2 more video cards by the end of this year. That being said you can obviously see I have no problem paying 40-60 bucks for a game, if a game is worth it. If a game is only lasting you a week, sounds like your buying some crap games. Demos are usually available for most games on the PC and read reviews of the games before you buy. I don't know about you, but I always do research before I spend my money on something. Whether it be 40-400 bucks. It's not the gaming industry's fault your a retard consumer. If you can't afford to play, it's simple, DON'T.


RE: PC price vs Console price
By michal1980 on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: PC price vs Console price
By kellehair on 1/16/2008 11:19:50 AM , Rating: 2
Part of the problem is that game developers have no problem with making a crappy game and advertising the hell out of it in hopes of swindling the masses to throw their money away (see: Kane & Lynch). And they buy favorable press from game review sites so you really have no way to tell what's good and what's crap.

You can't blame people for downloading some games. IMO opinion it's only a problem if they don't buy the games that deserve their money.

Some piracy isn't all-bad either. I know people who have downloaded games they never would have purchased to try them out, found they liked them, then bought them or their sequels or other games from that developer, etc.


RE: PC price vs Console price
By Aloonatic on 1/16/2008 11:06:24 AM , Rating: 2
Here in the UK PC games are cheaper, CoD 4 = £29.99 for PC as opposed to £39.99 for xBox 360 and PS3.

Console games are always going to be more expensive as (correct me if I'm wrong please, it happens quite a lot) the console manufacturers take a share of the moneys from the console versions of the game.

I admit that I have pirated the odd game in the past, but if I genuinely want the game I get an official copy, if I'm unsure I download a pirated version and if it's good I get an official one, but as with a lot of games I play them for a couple of hours and then un-install them. Demos are often useless and/or not sufficient.

The major threat to hacked/pirate copies is the potential to get infected with a virus. I hope that publishers don't try to take advantage of this.

Copying has always happened and always will. I have had copied games since my ZX Spectrum, Atari ST, SNES (with an adapter on to play imported games as the UK can be rather pricey), xBox and PCs.

The line over here has always been.... Games will be cheaper if there was no piracy, but no one has ever believed that.

It's only now that a lot of money is being funnelled into game development and distribution as the money men have realised what a massive market the games industry is, is anyone taking real notice of the pirate industry.

I'm sticking to Consoles from now on, PCs are just too expensive to keep on upgrading for me now, they are only really any use for internet browsing and file storage to be viewed on my PS3.

What would it cost to buy a PC to play CoD 4 at the same quality as on a PS3/xBox 360?

The PC piracy problem will become less and less of one as less and less people buy them for game playing and consoles really take over the home.

(sorry if this doesn't make a great deal of sense, typed in snippets of time whilst at work)


RE: PC price vs Console price
By ioKain on 1/16/2008 11:33:02 AM , Rating: 2
I think they should put out copies with a virus in it. It would weed out a lot of the people who also dl their hacks. Your argument is no excuse for pirating a game. COD 4 demo was awesome, played through it several times. Game wasn't even on my radar till I played the demo. Here's a hint if you get a demo and are not into the game, it's either not your cup of tea or the game probably sucks! *gasp*


RE: PC price vs Console price
By Aloonatic on 1/16/2008 11:51:00 AM , Rating: 2
I take your point, and there's no real argument for piracy of course.

Releasing pirated copies of games with a virus in would be funny as the company to do it would probably go under in a storm of bad publicity.

The point about the demos was more aimed at the very short in length and rushed out demos that are devoid of any online action.

The console game demos seem to be much better in this respect.


RE: PC price vs Console price
By Frallan on 1/17/2008 9:08:18 AM , Rating: 2
Also they always either show the best out or do not include everything. A good Demo for me would be 10 hrs of play on the full version. somwhere after 3-4 hrs I have to be caught to like a game and then it has to develop from there another 3.4 hrs. Then Ill buy asap...


Instead of moaning and groaning
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 10:12:21 AM , Rating: 2
The game industry should come up with a good strategy.

Unreal tournament lets people play their demo version for free online versus other people. This will curtain some people from going through the trouble of install illegal copies to their machine, those people probably wouldn't have paid for a copy anyways. This also helps give the game word of mouth presence and will help market the full game to those who might be interested in paying for the full featured game.

Kick people with hacked keys off line. Let them play by themselves.

In game advertising to optimize profitability.

Promote the virtues of PC gaming. Mods and online gaming communities help influence gamers to want to be a legitimate part of the gaming experience.

Stop moaning and groaning to tech magazines. It makes you look like a money focused corporate goat. Gamers don't like that.




RE: Instead of moaning and groaning
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:34:50 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly!


RE: Instead of moaning and groaning
By EuroGamer on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: Instead of moaning and groaning
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 10:53:53 AM , Rating: 2
What ever happened to Blizzard letting you play multiplayer games with one or a few keys? THAT would get a lot of people to convert their friends...


RE: Instead of moaning and groaning
By Etsp on 1/16/2008 11:13:11 AM , Rating: 2
Blizzard does that for WoW, its a program called "Recruit a friend" and it basically lets you give 6 friends a 10-day free trial of the game. If that friend goes on to buy WoW, you get 30 days free...


RE: Instead of moaning and groaning
By Frallan on 1/17/2008 9:42:58 AM , Rating: 2
Not the same - Starcraft used to have a Full and a clone copy for Lan play. You could install the clone on any number of computers but only play online and as long as the original full licenced copy was in play. I remember this well bc in my computer socity we had a few copies and all of us had private copies but as we went from computer room to computer room we didn't always have all of em with us. Then this was wonderful.

Acctually thats yet another thing Blizzard have done well.


By VooDooAddict on 1/16/2008 11:07:18 AM , Rating: 2
I've very disappointed by this statement.

I was touting Call of Duty 4 as the shining example of what PC games need to return to when it comes to copy protection.

Disk and Key based protection for single player.
Key check with No Disk check for multiplayer.
Key works for anyone behind the same NAT firewall online.

Call of Duty 4 turned out to be the unknown gem of a recent 12 person LAN party. One person at the LAN bought it on a whim earlier that day. Everyone was able to play it online together at the LAN. Much like the old days of Pre-Steam Halflife/Counterstrike. It made total sense to everyone there and figured it was a conscious decision by the design team. One copy of Call of Duty 4 can be played by multiple people on one console ... this seemed a valid extension for the PC.

After the LAN 8 of the 12 people went and bought a copy so that we could continue to play it online together. The remaining 4 are spending more on upgrading PC hardware first. A few other friends not at the LAN have also picked it up based on the very LAN friendly design.

And this whining about not having a good way to sell PC games to avoid piracy? They are already on Steam for distribution, they just need to take it a step further and use it for ALL authentication online. I haven't heard Valve complain about piracy for a while ... (maybe source code theft and hackers ... but that's another story :) )




By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:11:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
After the LAN 8 of the 12 people went and bought a copy so that we could continue to play it online together. The remaining 4 are spending more on upgrading PC hardware first. A few other friends not at the LAN have also picked it up based on the very LAN friendly design.
I'm sure they're working diligently to prevent this type of incredibly effective marketing from happening in the future.


By Eugenics on 1/16/2008 3:44:27 PM , Rating: 3
COD 4 has become the game of our biweekly geek fests because of it being lan friendly. When we started only 2 of us had legit copies, myself included. Third geek fest came along and its 7/8 now. One person even bought a new Toshiba laptop with SLI because cod4 supported it.


By imaheadcase on 1/16/2008 11:20:45 AM , Rating: 2
Its not rocket science, if he is saying "the numbers are astounding" for Call of duty 4 on PC, it just means his game is easy to pirate, plain and simple. LOTS of games are hard to pirate, so much so that the few that are don't matter much to the developer. You don't have to put elaborate DRM, or DVD copy protection of the sorts on your game developers..you need a solid game that actually does not make people want to pirate in the first place.

Games are starting to become like movies, one good movie out of a 100 does not make it financially feasible for a person to go to every movie wanting to find one that was worth it.

When i was younger, i remember almost every game I got I was hooked on. Now they are pretty much all the same in terms of originality. Call of Duty 4? Did the developer actually think sequel after sequel was NOT going to be pirated? Who wants to pay for more of the same stuff..over and over.




By johnbuk on 1/16/2008 11:30:06 AM , Rating: 2
Haven't played COD4 myself (not big on online games and my understanding is the positive reviews it's gotten are mostly based on it's online game play), but it is supposedly a pretty big departure from the previous iterations in the series.

I understand your argument though and it's the reason I'm always a year behind on sports games- why pay $50 or more for the new Madden when it's just tweaked slightly from the previous game and I can wait a year and buy it for cheap.


By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 11:45:48 AM , Rating: 2
Because there is never going to be a fool proof way. The more time and resources a company uses to try the more time and resource they're going to waste. It's a never ending battle and can never be won by the studios. They know this.

And not all studios are into spilling their resources to combat piracy. Some are starting to realize changing people's perceptions is probably a more cost effective and effective solution to the issue. Like letting consumers download only the songs they like instead of paying $15 for a whole album. Letting people watch their favorite TV shows on the net with advertising. Or the advent of digital movie downloading from companies like Netflix. But I guess time will till how the digital war between the consumer and the corporation will end.


PC copyprotection
By mahax on 1/16/2008 1:45:24 PM , Rating: 2
I hate PC gaming for the copyprotections. Theres so many different types out there, all installed behind your back and eating system resources. They are not necesarily even limited to the time the game is running. These buggers start right with the windoze. And all the controversy with them...

IMHO M$ should incorporate CP to DirectX. One system, regularly updated, best compatibility and from a source I could trust (somewhat).




RE: PC copyprotection
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 1:49:13 PM , Rating: 2
There's nothing wrong with copy protection as long as it's not intrusive. I think it's really annoying to have to pop in my disc every time I want to play a game. This is reason why I prefer to play games on steam.


RE: PC copyprotection
By RedStar on 1/16/2008 2:49:21 PM , Rating: 2
LOVE steam!! and to think it was so hated when it first started.


Stealing it?
By GhandiInstinct on 1/16/2008 1:21:20 PM , Rating: 1
The people that download shared cracks of these games aren't stealing. The groups of people that get it and crack it and upload it to torrents are thieves.

People that download it are doing by the consent of the torrent site and the thief.

Think of it like this, some guy jacks a stereo, and gives it to his friend for free. Who should be convicted? True that both are in possession of stolen property, but the friend had no idea it was stolen.

Piracy groups steal the games and upload it, but P2P is sharing files. So the groups bought and uploaded/stole the game and are sharing it with us.

Someone has to understand what I mean or make sense of it, even though it's not easy.




RE: Stealing it?
By y2chuck on 1/16/2008 2:21:01 PM , Rating: 3
The difference in your analogy is if you are downloading a cracked version of a game or a torrent of it, you KNOW it's been stolen.


RE: Stealing it?
By GhandiInstinct on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: Stealing it?
By JustTom on 1/16/2008 6:34:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A person who downloads it doesn't know it's stolen, all they know is its a torrent and have no idea the history of it.


Oh please, what percentage of people downloading commercial software off from torrent sites don't know the software is not legit?


This is why STEAM is awesome
By Xenoterranos on 1/16/2008 11:21:42 AM , Rating: 3
It is, in almost every case, faster than pirating, easier than pirating, and if you pre-order it can be a pretty good deal to. Hell, not even pirates can offer you a perfect copy of a game the very instant the developers release it.
I got the orange box for 40$ on my PC. If you ask me, that's one hell of a good deal.




RE: This is why STEAM is awesome
By JoshuaBuss on 1/16/2008 1:03:14 PM , Rating: 1
exactly. steam is the answer... and generally speaking only whiny cheap bastards disagree.

you sure don't hear about people like blizzard or valve complaining about a lack of sales... hmmm... wonder what they're doing right?


$50 isn't bad
By pjkenned on 1/16/2008 5:04:36 PM , Rating: 2
I use only legit software period.

CoD4 is really good. Crysis, looks great, I'm not a fan of the gameplay but I got it "free" with my evga 8800gts.

When I lived in LA I was spending $14 to go to a movie. That's just my ticket, not the girlfriend's, and not including food/parking. That $14 sometimes got me a great movie, and sometimes a not so great one. Times ranged between 90-150 minutes.

The last FPS game I played was Counter-strike 1.3 and a bit of source. I then tried battlefield 2 and to be honest, it was complete garbage. Reviews fail to explain why I had bug after bug with it, and better yet, why they never got fixed over long periods of time.

CoD4 was my first CoD title and first FPS game in a long time. I got it on sale at target for like $37. Since then I have about 13 hours online and maybe 1 hour single player logged. With tax (8.25% in CA) I paid about $40 and thus far I have <$3 per hour for a great game. Movies on the other hand are about $5-7 per hour and are very often so-so. Video games at $50 are hard to beat. On sale at $40 the value is even better.

For the games that aren't great, just don't waste your time. It's that simple. I've played the Vista poker game more than Crysis at this point. Why waste time playing something bad, when you can play something better?

I'm shocked that people would pirate CoD4, it is the kind of game that #1 is great and #2 plays well on current hardware. It is precisely the type of software that needs to be supported. However, infinity ward, and other video game studios need to go the way of WoW and make every user authenticate to play. I bet you Blizzard doesn't care about pirated discs because to use the software you need an account.




RE: $50 isn't bad
By spwatkins on 1/17/2008 10:33:22 AM , Rating: 2
>> CoD4 is really good. Crysis, looks great, I'm not a fan >> of the gameplay but I got it "free" with my evga 8800gts.

This gives me an idea. Since every new semi-decent game seems to require a new $400 video card to run, why not simply bundle every new game with the video card required to run it? Then the game would be "free".
Those who are not interested in state-of-the-art eye candy could simply buy the console version.


Sad
By pauldovi on 1/16/2008 10:06:01 AM , Rating: 1
I for one will never own a console. Consoles are far more expensive to own and lack the precision of a PC. My PC is not only good for playing games but also for school work. :)




RE: Sad
By Manch on 1/16/2008 11:50:46 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot arguing with strangers on forums ;-)


stupid pc
By madpear on 1/16/2008 12:00:32 PM , Rating: 1
Computers are full of hackers anyway. I wish thieves got sent to prison in China. Play games the way they were intended to be played: AFTER PAYING FOR THEM!




RE: stupid pc
By aLeoN on 1/16/2008 2:34:58 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah! This will never happen on the Mac. First they have to make the games for it.

;)


play the demo first
By y2chuck on 1/16/2008 1:05:50 PM , Rating: 3
A solution to this, like someone already posted, is to kick off the folks playing with a pirated key.

I play the demo for any game I want to buy. IF it sucks, I don't buy it. If there is no demo, I wait for a used copy to show up so I don't plunk down full price to play a game that might suck.

If you can't afford to buy the game, too bad.




Also
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 10:20:44 AM , Rating: 2
Console games can be resold. PC games usually can't because of the risk of the product key not being secure. There are goods and bads of both platforms. As I mentioned before. Come up with a better strategy, don't moan and groan.




Prices
By psychotix11 on 1/16/2008 10:52:32 AM , Rating: 2
Prices of games have not gone up, gone are the days of expensive carts that could reach close to 80 bucks for a top end game in the 90's, yes I mean consoles but piracy is there as well.

The real problem with PC gaming hits on two fronts, price of hardware and DRM.

I understand their need to push boundaries but when you release a game that few people can play well you've shot yourself in the foot.

DRM is just out of hand. I know a lot of people that refuse to buy retail games after starforce, Bioshocks DRM mess, rootkits, the list goes on. Oddly enough if you pirate the game it's safer and less of a mess.

The industry has created a system where the hardware costs are massive, and paying for a retail copy of the game can hit you with copy protection schemes that range from the cantankerous to malicious in nature.

On the other hand console hardware is cheap and the game isn't going to brick yoursystem/disable optical drives.




BT
By gramboh on 1/16/2008 11:24:15 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is Bit Torrent/P2P, it's too easy for average users to figure out piracy compared to the old 'scene' days of having to use FTP sites. I think this is going to really hurt PC gaming in the next few years, especially as people grow up used to having BT and not paying for anything (even titles they really appreciate).




A Generation Thing?
By Aloonatic on 1/16/2008 11:26:39 AM , Rating: 2
Just a quick thought.

Is my generation (I'm about 30) pretty much lost and will always have the piracy option?

I know I could probably quite easily steal an apple from a supermarket if I really wanted to, but I don't because I never have.

I know that I can easily steal a game from the internet peoples, and I occasionally do, as I always have.

As I mentioned earlier, there have always been easily available pirate copies of games since computer games have been around.

Maybe an education thing for the youth of today to get them out of the habit of piracy early is the most likely way of stamping out the problem for the majority of people.

I know a lot of people still steal from shops by the way, it's just that most "decent" people don't, which I do consider myself to be, even though I may have played pirated game???

How do you get people like me to recognise the piracy of games (and other media) as real theft? It just isn't the same somehow???




By sfguy99999 on 1/16/2008 11:50:59 AM , Rating: 2
Game makers should buy back used games and resell them used at a lower price. Note the article:

http://www.dailytech.com/GameStops+35+Percent+Holi...

Of course lowering the price won't stop pirating but between a lower price and digital distribution the hassle of pirating would be minimized. Plus why don't they hire the hackers to rev the anti-piracy from one game to the next. Slowing the hackers down would increase sales in the window between release and hackers cracking the new anti-piracy code.




How about longer games
By Feneant2 on 1/16/2008 12:18:17 PM , Rating: 2
My beef in reading all of this is I don't play games online. I buy them for the single player or coop story (well, on console anyways) and play through it once. I have not played an online game such as Call of Duty seriously in years so I don't feel I get my money's worth.

I guess the obvious suggestion would be to release longer games that don't amount to me paying 6$ an hour to play it.

Or, how about releasing a stripped version of the games. No multiplayer or bloatware, just release the single player campaign at a lower price for those of us who will play through it once and be done with it.

That's my 2 cents.




Piracy will always exists...
By AggressorPrime on 1/16/2008 12:34:31 PM , Rating: 2
Just like all crime, hackers, cheaters, etc, piracy will always exist. No matter what prevention protocols are put into place, it only takes one pirate to crack it to open up the pirated version to the whole pirate community. In fact, prevention protocols, as seen by Vista, hurt the good guys more than the pirates. There is only one sane way to get rid of piracy. Make all games free and offer premium accounts with special benefits like Tibia. You can also charge monthly like WoW and EVE, but these costs tend to add up to a lot for the end user. That and of course implanted commercials like BF2142 uses will create extra money. Anyway, the open platform method might actually make more money than the paying up front method. This way, everything is timed and tracked. Piracy becomes impossible.




By zero2dash on 1/16/2008 12:48:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Infinity Ward is not the first developer to speak out on the difficulties that piracy creates for PC game makers. id Software’s Todd Hollenshead presented a speech on the very topic at the Game Developer’s Conference 2007 – and like Infinity Ward chose to do with Call of Duty 4, id Software’s next project will also be developed with consoles in mind .


Yes, because piracy for consoles is nonexistant.

I mean, it's not like you can get Wii, 360, and Ps3 isos over P2P or anything.

/sarcasm

Piracy is everywhere.

Even Quake 3 Arena had cd keys that would not allow duplicate cd key users to play the game. Any reason why they didn't bother to put that same system in CoD4? I assumed all cd key systems worked this way.




Serial Numbers Should Prevent This
By wempa on 1/16/2008 1:04:29 PM , Rating: 2
I fail to see what the problem is if they are using serial numbers AND they can detect that they are cracked serial numbers. For one, have a database that randomly creates VALID serial numbers that aren't based on any specific pattern. Then, validate the game serial number against the database. If if doesn't find it or somebody else is using it online, don't let the person play online. That's how Diablo 2 worked and I think it worked pretty well to stop pirates from playing online. Obviously, there would still be simple cracks to play offline.




Make something worth paying for
By mattclary on 1/16/2008 1:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
I have a copy of Call of Duty that came with a recent video card purchase. It's still in the shrink wrap and will probably stay that way, just doesn't interest me.




By pillagenburn on 1/16/2008 1:31:18 PM , Rating: 2
Larry Hyrb, stop your whining.

The price of PC games needs to come down, plain and simple, before piracy will begin to drop.

$20 for a game instead of $60, a greater focus on online distribution (and a reflection of the distribution cost savings in the price of the game, itself). If games were $10-20 instead of $50-70 you would see your piracy problems magically melt away, for the most part.

I recently spent over $1,000 on parts (that's 1/35th of my yearly pre-tax income) that I suspect will run Crysis at 1280x1024 on MEDIUM SETTINGS. This wasn't even the entire cost of the system!

After purchasing these parts, I then contemplated going out and buying Crysis, Unreal Tournament 3 and Call of Duty 4 at WalMart. The grim realization that I could, very well, be spending $150-200+ on software (which I may or may not get more than 100 hours of enjoyment out of). By contrast, I will likely get several thousand useful hours out of my PC parts and equipment.

Using this logic, say I get 5,000 hours (somewhere south of a year) of useful life out of my $165 video card (HD 2900 pro, and this includes both 2D and 3D applications: games, chat, word processing etc). Over the useful life of the video card (before I consider upgrading), the video card is costing me roughly $0.03/hour.

On the other hand, let's say I get 75 hours of enjoyment out of my $60 (after tax) video game. Per 2142-stats.com, I have logged 45 hours on battlefield 2142, and for me that was a very addicting game. Bear in mind, I rarely get over 100 hours of enjoyment out of any game. This comes to roughly $.80/hour to own that game!!!! Versus roughly $.26/hour if the game were to cost $20.

So by this logic, and if you do the math, it costs me over 26 times MORE to own the $60 game than it does to own the $165 video card.

Using this type of analysis, it is easy to see why piracy is so rampant in PC video games. The price-benefit ratio just isn't there!

just my $0.02




By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 1:58:19 PM , Rating: 2
The software developers are going to go after the guys who trade in their used console games because it hurts their bottom line. I can see them requiring you to register your key online under your console account number. Thus the games will permanently be tied to your console. If you lose your console or it breaks your SOL. As morally wrong as pirating is, so is corporate greed. We pay for what we can afford and should not want more than what we need. It's up to the individual, just don't infringe on everyone to get to the pockets of a few.




COD4 campaign
By Strunf on 1/16/2008 2:10:25 PM , Rating: 2
COD4 is not worth its money if you play only the single player campaign, and no pirate copy allows you to play online... on official servers.

So no, piracy doesn't hurt this kind of game, not this one nor any other multiplayer oriented one...




Games like Crysis
By dustinfrazier on 1/16/2008 2:39:39 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree with him. After playing Crysis, I feel bad that games of that magnitude and quality may come fewer and further between due to piracy. I remember reading how poor the sales of Crysis are and I can't help but think piracy has a huge amount to do with it. That sucks because for me, there is no game that has impressed me more. If you can't fully enjoy the mind blowing graphics because of your comp specs, lower the res and enjoy it for the magnificent storyline. If you can't tell, I really love that game and fully support Crytek. I hope you guys do as well by not pirating it. Crysis makes Halo 3 look like Oregon Trail and it sucks that the sales figures don't reflect that.




By Hakuryu on 1/16/2008 3:13:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Infinity Ward is not the first developer to speak out on the difficulties that piracy creates for PC game makers. id Software’s Todd Hollenshead presented a speech on the very topic at the Game Developer’s Conference 2007 – and like Infinity Ward chose to do with Call of Duty 4, id Software’s next project will also be developed with consoles in mind.


This is not correct. While multiple Id employee's spoke about pirating, at both GDC and QuakeCon, their decision to branch out to consoles has nothing to do with it.

John Carmack spoke on length about how the console crowd has grown, and how the new Id Tech 5 will be able to compile code for the PC and consoles from 1 set of code. This is a revolutionary jump in development, basically removing third party developers that had to port something to a console (or a PC), and will end up making Id a ton of money from licensing their engine. No developer will use another engine if Id Tech 5 can do what they say it will.

John also stated that Id is a PC developer, and they will never stop supporting PC games, citing strong sales, loyal fans, and the mod scene as some reasons. They are not jumping the PC bandwagon for consoles because of piracy.




By viperpa on 1/16/2008 5:46:21 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that $50 is a bit much but to the people who complain about it, don't buy it. The only reason why game companies charge that much because they know people will buy it. The game companies will charge $50, $80, $100 for games until people say they have had enough. Game companies know that gamers will pay anything for that better game play. They know gamers will spend $5,000 for a computer to get that better game play.

As far as pirating, again price comes into play. Because a person don't want to pay $50 for a game don't mean they should pirate a game. Game developers have to earn a living to. You cut there salary and they have no reason to develop games anymore.




FUD! FUD! FUD!
By Hydrofirex on 1/16/2008 7:30:52 PM , Rating: 2
I don't recall a single game with online servers hosted by the company that you can play with a hacked key. It's pretty easy to check on something like this. Hacked servers, sure, but some people like playing with some kind of anti-cheating measures in place.

THIS IS FUD!

The gaming industry is raking in amounts of money that makes Hollywood green. Halo had more people buying it at 50 bucks a pop than go to see hit movies.

Piracy is not the problem here.

HfX




whatever
By evident on 1/16/2008 8:45:01 PM , Rating: 2
if it wasnt for me downloading the game first and playing through single player, i wouldn't of shelled out $50 for the damn game when there's TF2, UT3 and crysis all out at the same time. being able to download games first keeps developers in check to make sure they make a quality game. Do you ever see blizzard taking a hit on their bottom dollar due to piracy? no... and the dev's at IW have nothing to worry about since COD4 is a AAA game and it's flying off the shelves, so stop crying! :)




Another perspective
By shiyujia on 1/16/2008 10:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
I'll give you another perspective on this matter. I think most of the people playing pirated copies in multiplayer are probably from China. You see, I live in China. Call of Duty series are HUGELY popular here. The problem? Call of Duty 4 is NOT YET available in retail stores. The only way to get the game right now is through illegal channels. And the game probably will never be available because it probably will never pass the censorship here. Another problem is that although Call of Duty and Call of Duty 2 are available legally, these legal versions have multiplayer component disabled because there are no official servers in China. So even if in the future Call of Duty 4 is available legally, it will probably have its multiplayer component disabled as well. And people still have to resort to piracy to play on-line.
Just my opinion.




Piracy isnt stealing
By xNIBx on 1/17/2008 5:38:50 AM , Rating: 2
I can download any game i choose to, at many MB/s speed. I can download cracked games often days/weeks before they come out. I have downloaded 100s of pirated games.

But i have bought 10s(maybe a hundred) legit games. Just because i can get every game i choose within a couple mins, doesnt mean that i wont buy legit games that i like and can afford. If anything, there have been times where i bought a game that i didnt intent to buy, simply because i found it through piracy and i enjoyed it(galactic civilization 2 for example).

If someone cant afford a game/doesnt intent to buy it, yet he downloads it off the internet, how is that a bad thing? Imagine if jesus was sued by the bakeries or the fishermen simply because he multiplied their bread/fish.

Didnt jesus broke the "copyright" back then? Of course he did. But even if he didnt break it, most of those people didnt have enough money to buy those things anyway. So the bakeries/fishermen didnt lose any/much money.

Some of those people who benefited from those free bread/fish, did have enough money to buy bread/fish and they would if they couldnt get it for free. But those people didnt buy them, because of that. So they are the "thieves".

I see piracy as a social benefit for the poor. Sure there are many people who also benefit from it, even though they shouldnt, but that doesnt mean that it isnt a good thing. Just because you have some scam artists benefiting from disability benefits, doesnt mean that you shouldnt give disability benefits to anyone.

Piracy declines when economic indexes go up. That's why piracy is booming in China while it is reduced in the "West". Most people want to pay for something they enjoy, even if they can get it for "free". They only thing that prevents them is the price. If the price is lowered and/or if people start making more money, then people will buy more legit media.

PS I am not a religious person.




SCREWING OUR OWN
By 1078feba on 1/17/2008 4:56:28 PM , Rating: 2
Heh, the post count on this thread is near 180, so the chances that any of the people that have posted here so far are going to come back and read this is miniscule at best, but it needs to be said, so why not right here and right now.

We are screwing our own.

The devs at IW are just like us. They are tech-heads and geek-weenies. They were weaned on the Commodore VIC-20/64, Colecovision and Atari 2600. They know that Pitfall actually sucked, and that if your opponent had men on first and second while playing Intellivision baseball, if you pitched the next batter inside, he'd almost always pull it to the shortstop which gave you an easy triple play.

They are us. They cut their teeth on discrete graphics and can tell you how many service packs each iteration of Windows has had since it's inception, just like most here can. They are the guys and gals who came up with the mods for the games we love, giving us even more hours of fun for that $50 investment. These are the people that came up with the idea of playing with your friends using the web.

When we steal games, we are screwing our own.

Now, while I can sympathize with those of us who have stolen (that "pirated" crap is just a way to salve your own conscience, "LOOK, I AM ROBIN HOOD!") movies and music (though I disagree with it), because the case can be made that you really are sticking it to the man, stealing games is like, as a very famous person once said, "Casting pearls and not getting so much as a pork chop in return". And while the RIAA, in fact, deserves everything they have coming to them for this ridiculous scorched earth policy they have adopted, I can't understand how more than half the people in this thread think that stealing games is the same as stealing movies and music. Counterintuitive doesn't even begin to describe it.

You steal, and you're screwing your own.




What did you expect?
By EuroGamer on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
Official Guide to Justifying Piracy
By Manch on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
By 1078feba on 1/17/2008 11:45:15 AM , Rating: 1
Superb post. Everyone who voted you down can pound fu**ing sand...


RE: Official Guide to Justifying Piracy
By cobaltb on 1/17/2008 1:43:34 PM , Rating: 1
I agree, awesome post.

If you are going to pirate software just say so. No justification needed. You defend yourselves as if you are innocent. I have pirated software before and I am damn guilty. So what if I was a poor college student, I was still guitly has hell. Listen up morons, playing games isn't a right. Start crying to me when have to pay for air to breath

Nothing will change the fact that software piracy illegal in most countries. Nothing will change the fact that if piracy continues it will affect the bottom line of game companies in some way.

If the police came to your house and said, give me $50.00 for using a pirated copy of COD4 and I won't arrest you. I bet everything I have that you would scrounge for every penny to pay him. I very much doubt you would give him any of the completely pathetic sob stories listed above.


By ZapatistasLL on 1/19/2008 7:50:25 AM , Rating: 2

How about this one !!

"" I pirate games because they cost around $50 and they actually worth more around $5 ""

Is that good enough for you or you want more ??

Same applies for music too !!

(and please.. don't throw in the argument of how good this or that game was... you do not buy a console or a >$250 graphics card just to play 1-3 games a year , OK ! )

If you cannot see this then you are just arguing for arguments sake .....


“And I don't know why [Apple is] acting like it’s superior. I don't even get it. What are they trying to say?” -- Bill Gates on the Mac ads