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Developer describes PC game piracy as "astounding"

Besides targeting the mass market, there are other reasons for many PC game developers to shift focus to consoles.

Call of Duty, a franchise that started on the PC, is now a bona fide hit on current-generation consoles Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3. Listed as one of GameStop’s top five selling games throughout the holiday season, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare was also amongst the most often played online.

Microsoft’s Larry Hryb detailed in his blog that Call of Duty 4 was the third most played game on Xbox Live, behind only Halo 3 and Gears of War.

Even with the success of the console versions of Call of Duty 4, the developers of the game continue to put effort into extending the life of its work for the PC audience. Coming soon are mod tools for hobbyists to create new game modes, as well as a map editor to make new environments.

Sadly, one issue that plagues PC gaming far more than consoles is the issue of piracy. Robert Bowling of Infinity Ward wrote in his fourzerotwo blog under the heading “They Wonder Why People Don't Make PC Games Any More” a particularly disturbing note commenting on the “astounding” number of people who have pirated Call of Duty 4 and play online.

“On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic),” wrote Bowling. “What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).”

“Not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding,” he continued. “It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do.”

Infinity Ward is not the first developer to speak out on the difficulties that piracy creates for PC game makers. id Software’s Todd Hollenshead presented a speech on the very topic at the Game Developer’s Conference 2007 – and like Infinity Ward chose to do with Call of Duty 4, id Software’s next project will also be developed with consoles in mind.

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So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 9:49:10 AM , Rating: 5
Two suggestions:

If you know the players are using a cracked/stolen key, kick them off!!!

To get some revenue out of those folks, display in-lobby advertisements. Maybe charge based on the number of people currently in the game. That way you'll be making advertising money even if you didn't sell a legal copy of the game. And maybe, just maybe, you could use that extra cash to offset the $50 I have to drop just to have the game in the first place.




RE: So do something about it
By initialised on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By qwertyz on 1/16/2008 10:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
The ever increasing system spec of new games and the fact that they run properly only on cutting edge hardware makes users not to buy them after all what's the reason of buying a new game if your PC couldn't run it or it runs it on Low specs looking like crap and running like crap.


RE: So do something about it
By RandallMoore on 1/16/2008 12:34:52 PM , Rating: 3
That and the fact that you could pay 50$ for a game just to find out that its the worst game ever developed. It especially makes me mad when i spend that much money on buggy/non working software. BF2 bugs and compatibility issues anyone?? oh yea... they never did fix that 50$ game.

Worst of all, once you open it, it can not be returned. I would rather have the original copy anyway. If they would lower it from $50 to $30 (or less) you would see a BIG drop in piracy. I would even buy more music CD's instead of downloading songs if they were not $25!!! Whats it really worth?? try like 10. Think about it. Wouldnt you rather have the original copy if it was at a decent price as opposed to going through the headache of downloading and cracking/patching/tweaking?


RE: So do something about it
By IGoodwin on 1/16/2008 12:47:47 PM , Rating: 2
This is what I assume if common knowledge, but it may need saying. The reason you can't take a game back after you open it is precisly because of piracy.

While I don't have a solution, if piracy could be eliminated, then you caould take games back that were bad. Trying to justify piracy because there are bad games is not really the best logical argument.


RE: So do something about it
By mmntech on 1/16/2008 1:18:57 PM , Rating: 4
I think the above user makes a very good argument, though it doesn't justify downloading.
The problem with the rule in copyright law that prevents returns is that it assumes guilt. There's a delicate balance between consumer rights and the rights of the copyright holder. In this particular case, I believe consumer rights are being violated. Don't bother bringing up weak parallels like locks on doors, because I know somebody will, since that is not the same thing.

The problem with the entertainment industry is they seem to be able to skirt around things that other industries wouldn't get away with. There seems to be little or no concern for quality control either, which I believe these laws fuel since there are fewer consequences to releasing a bad product. As the above user said, this causes piracy since people don't want to take the risk of paying $60 for a game to find out it doesn't work or you simply don't like it. Once again, I'm not trying to justify downloading but it is a valid point. This is one of the reasons I moved to consoles since I can rent the game to legally try before I buy.


RE: So do something about it
By SlyNine on 1/16/2008 6:12:16 PM , Rating: 2
Could you link me to the copyright law that prevents returns? Iv been trying to find any law that prevents returns but I havent found anything.


RE: So do something about it
By spluurfg on 1/17/2008 5:45:07 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's necessarily copyright law, but store policies. And it makes sense too... I sure wouldn't want to buy a pre-opened piece of software only to find out somebody is already using my serial for online play.

I remember not too long ago developers would almost always have a demo of the game out before or when the full game launched. Nowadays it's tougher... developers are usually under such pressure to get the game out that often they can't even finish it and have to patch it later. Also, certain download sites seem to want to make it a business to have exclusive download rights to certain demos, funnelling everybody into the same few servers and making it pretty much inaccessible.

Granted many are just pirating because they have no intention of paying for something, but I know of some who have used illegal copies of apps or games as a a trial then buying the full copy. It's not legal, but it's what people do.


RE: So do something about it
By mcturkey on 1/27/2008 2:08:58 AM , Rating: 2
This is correct that a majority of retailers do not permit returns of opened PC games due to piracy issues. I believe once a CD key has been used, nobody else is legally entitled to that key, regardless of whether they own that physical game as a result of purchasing a returned item or not. Generally, if retailers accept a return on an opened piece of PC software, the item is destroyed, which hurts both the retailer and the developer.

Forcing online key validation (ex. Steam or MMOs) is the only way to ensure that piracy is minimized. Yes, there will be people who get around it anyway, but it's precisely the difficulty of pirating console games that is driving developers to support them more than PC. While I still feel offline play shouldn't require an internet connection to validate the game, if you play online, the developer should have the right to kick you off the servers if you're using a pirated copy. Why Infinity Ward isn't doing anything against the pirated copies is beyond me, though.


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/16/2008 3:07:45 PM , Rating: 2
I have a lot of the tools at my disposal to steal/pirate a lot of software. To date, the ONLY software I have not purchased is:
Photoshop
3DS Max
FRAPS
Photoshop and 3DS are self-explanatory. They're hugely expensive and are intended for developers who make money using them to purchase. How could I justify spending hundreds/thousands of dollars on a program I use for my entertainment, or a map I play to release for free? it's ridiculous.
FRAPS, I torrented two years ago, before I got a credit card. If I didn't have it now I'd gladly pay for it.
A lot of people on this thread are justifying piracy by saying they can't return the game.... Which is ludicrious. Ever heard of a demo? Reading reviews? It's not a difficult concept, and I have yet to wish to return a PC game. I've researced them for three or four days then purchased it with my own, hard earned money to keep the studio that did an excellent job on said software alive and kicking. Music is so much crap anyway it's not worth paying for, but anyone who can't drop the forty bucks for a PC game is just a douchebag, plain and simple. Someone has created a world, spent money on employees, (and programs) and thousands of other things to bring it to you, and you can't work at minimum wage for a day to play something that will last you years if not a lifetime? You're not a real gamer, and I don't want to play with someone like you to be honest.

(and to the op, I just think they compared numbers of playing to copies sold... not the actual keys.)


RE: So do something about it
By bodar on 1/16/2008 5:42:17 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree that demos are a great measuring stick for whether a game fits your taste and definition of quality, I hardly think reviews are 100% trustworthy.

http://www.dailytech.com/GameSpot+Editorial+Direct...
http://www.dailytech.com/More+Fallout+From+the+Gam...


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/18/2008 3:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
that's a legit point. 98% for Crysis by PC gamer? I lost a lot of repsect for their staff with that review, and they CONTINUE to say that it's deserving of this rating. Having played the game, let me say that with a high end system it gets a 92 or so - the gameplay, while refined, isn't fresh and there are serious bugs in it too. On MY computer, (or anything without a Nvidia 8800 card)85, tops. The only reason I got the game is because my cousin told me to come up with a birthday present in 30 seconds and unfortunately it was the first thing I thought of. If i could go back in time I would have said Company of Heroes.


RE: So do something about it
By ethana2 on 1/16/2008 6:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
I practice with Blender and the GIMP three hours a day so when I /meet/ a pirate... I can kill it!


RE: So do something about it
By HighWing on 1/16/2008 1:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
Why I do agree with you that spending $50 for a game you don't' like or think is crap, the other side of things is that way back in the ages of DOS game developers used to release tons of Demos and Shareware games. This enabled you to "try" the game and then if you like it you could go ahead and buy the full version.

I don't think I've seen any shareware games in the last decade, and very few PC games ever have Demos anymore. IMO they should get back to doing that.


RE: So do something about it
By euclidean on 1/16/2008 2:31:35 PM , Rating: 5
COD4 had a demo though...lol.

Neways, it's the only reason i download games, I want to see if I like them first...and if I do, then I buy them. And i know a ton of people that do it that same way too. But hey...something has to change right? well once everything is shifted to an online account system (like steam) there will at least be less piracy on the Online Multiplayer scene right?...lol


RE: So do something about it
By FITCamaro on 1/16/2008 2:49:46 PM , Rating: 3
CoD4 had a fully playable demo on the PC for you to see if you liked it. And it was an awesome demo at that.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/16/2008 3:00:07 PM , Rating: 5
And that's not just some isolated occurence - lots of games today have demos available. You also have reviews from dozens of sites, including user reviews, user videos, etc. There are plenty of ways to know whether or not to buy a game besides piracy.


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/16/2008 3:11:26 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. Anyone who usses the "It's hard to figure out if it's a good game" is trying to baselessly defend themselves. Music, and even video pirates are not that reprehensible to me, but people like this are killing my gaming platform and I hate them.


RE: So do something about it
By OPR8R on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By 4wardtristan on 1/16/2008 5:27:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's my opinion that singleplayer gamers should save themselves the trouble (inherent to PC gaming) and switch to console gaming.


i sure hope not!! i don't know about you, but i am absolutely horrible at aiming with a controller..i have a 360+gears of war..i haven't even gotten past the 1st stage yet thats how bad i am :(..im sure there are people like me out there...somewhere...


RE: So do something about it
By Ryanman on 1/18/2008 3:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
You raise a good point - demos are usually buggy. I've been in a specific situation in which I wished exactly what you said,
quote:
hope that either the final version, or a patched version of the game will make the game playable.

And there's really no other way that I can think of to even begin to remove/replace the CD key system. I hate steam but at least I know it will keep Valve making (excellent) games for the PC.


RE: So do something about it
By Nanobaud on 1/16/2008 4:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
Of course, if you take a couple of days to read reviews, try demo, wait for feedback, etc..., then you start the game knowing all the 1337(?) players have already gone through everything. For a lot of people (assuming my son's friends are a representative sample of game-buying youth, and are sincere about the importance of getting new games asap), that's a bigger buzzkill than playing a bad game.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/17/2008 2:02:15 PM , Rating: 2
If you want the bleeding edge, get your wallet ready.

A lot of game reviews are posted before, if not 12:00 am the day of release. There are often half a dozen videos and interviews with the devs posted at gamespot. Heck, Fable 2 hasn't even announced a release date beyond 'TBA 2008' and it lalready has 40 minutes of video coverage at gamespot.

The flip side is if your son and his friends wait for a cracked version of a game to hit torrents, they'll still be a few days behind all the 1337 players.

I would think it'd do him a lot of good to take the time to research his purchases and spend his money wisely, rather than trying to fit in with the 1337 crowd. That, or get a good job.


RE: So do something about it
By IGoodwin on 1/16/2008 12:38:38 PM , Rating: 2
There is an alternative point of view that you may want to consider. Obviously all games developed can be created with the same graphics for a particular level of detail does not get more resourse intensive. The same game engine can be used, after all.

Therefore, what may be labeled as low resolution in a new game, which apparently offends you, has the same features and detail as high in an older game.

The same is true of gameplay, therefore a game with better gamepaly at the same 'old' resolution and level of detail would use more resource.

This is a normal evolution, otherwise, gameplay and grapgic stagnation are the alternative and everyone wants new and improved; at least I do.


RE: So do something about it
By 1078feba on 1/17/2008 11:14:22 AM , Rating: 2
Where have heard this arguement before, many times over...oh yeah, right here at DT ;).

Hasn't it always been this way though? Software almost always outpaces the hardware, and then, just when the hardware catches up and can run the game at 100+ fps with high settings, developers build new engines that again sprint ahead?

FWIW, CoD4 runs only on DX9 . The min spec to run it is staggeringly lower than UTIII and Crysis, yet what IW has done with their proprietary engine is nothing short of astounding. Depth of field effects, the best smoke you will see in any game, quick, concise movement, all with no appreciable fps hit at high setings. The only thing missing is volumetric lighting, which no one in a FPS is going to take the time to stop and look at anyway.

I play the PC version exclusively, and on a socket 939 proc and board, with a couple of high end cards, I get an average of 180 fps. IMHO, eminently palyable.

While I fundamentally agree with you about how annoying it is at the outset of each new generation of software/engines, I would submit that clearly CoD4 does not fall into this category.


RE: So do something about it
By erikejw on 1/16/2008 10:30:24 AM , Rating: 2
PC games have had the same price for 20 years now and the sales have 10folded. If you charge what people will pay more won't download pirated copies and the hazzle it creates.

20$ or Euro for a new game is appropriate and don't release expansion packs every third month and charge almost the same price.

The lack of creation of new game ideas is also extremally bad for the business. When the 50th similar fps games hit the market it won't sell.

Portal is a brillians example of a new stuggering splendid game.


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/16/2008 1:17:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PC games have had the same price for 20 years now and the sales have 10folded.


Yes, but 20 years ago most games were written by a small handful of people (or even 1 guy!) in a few months at most. Now games are multi-year creations by hundreds of people.


RE: So do something about it
By Director on 1/16/2008 4:27:02 PM , Rating: 2
And yet for some reason, the games were SO much better 20 years ago? Maybe if they were developed now with those principles instead of trying to make a Hollywood epic, all effects and no content, then sales would take off again?

As for prices, hear in Australia we are paying $100 aud for a new release. Personally I refuse that much for a game, but if I wait 6-12 months I can get it for about $50, or buy one second hand.


RE: So do something about it
By xsilver on 1/16/2008 7:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
Theres the age old argument that a game will give you good value entertainment time wise versus anything else. While that is generally true, a bad game can really skew that idea.

Cinema ticket (in australia) $15
entertainment = 3 hours max
Good game = $100
entertainment = 100 hours
winner = good game

Bad game = $100
entertainment = 6 hours
winner = cinema

While there can be bad movies too, the initial cost is still much lower so you dont feel burned as much.
I think the frustration stems from the fact that not enough games nowadays feel really "polished" to warrant that $$ purchase

A move to an episodic (half life) type game will really put the onus on the developer to produce better games; especially if the episodes are kept short sweet and CHEAP


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/17/2008 2:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And yet for some reason, the games were SO much better 20 years ago


Really? Which 20 year old games do you play today? Personally, I've found most 20 year old games are only better in my memory. On the occaisions I've actually played them, it's been rather a disappointment. There are a few exceptions of course, but even the best of 20 years ago are not 'SO much better' than the best games today. (I'd give my left nut for a modern version of Sundog though!)

20 years ago also there were alot of truly BAD games, games that were just torture to play, if 'play' was even a word that could be applied to such trash. These days, most any game you pick up will be plenty enjoyable; maybe not as good as other similar games, maybe not long enough, etc., but still playable.


RE: So do something about it
By johnsonx on 1/17/2008 2:34:37 PM , Rating: 2
oh, and yes, I do know that Sundog is being worked on over at SourceForge, no need to point it out.


RE: So do something about it
By TMV192 on 1/16/2008 12:43:05 PM , Rating: 2
With the amount of players playing games online, I bet there can be a huge market for in-game advertising if the games were free. Ubisoft did it last year with older games that no one was buying anyway (they took it off once non-American users were downloading it)


RE: So do something about it
By kattanna on 1/16/2008 9:57:37 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
offset the $50 I have to drop just to have the game in the first place


and there is part of the problem

$50? honestly, if that amount is too much for you to pay for hours of entertainment, then dont

what is it with people nowadays who honestly feel everything should be handed to them free of charge, and free of consequences of their actions?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By MPE on 1/16/2008 10:19:01 AM , Rating: 1
Comparing gas prices and the general economy to a video game purchase is just nonsensical


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:01:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why?
The same reason that the F22 didn't cost less to develop than a biplane?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 4:54:29 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, my comparison was not gas equals games which is ludicrous. I was stating that prices of other things effect the prices of other things if you have $100 of "leisure" money and the gas prices go up you lose some of that leisure money.

As far as a biplane and f22 didn't cost less to develop? Duh!
The comparison would be development.

Which was harder to develop a plane with virtually tech aids such as CAD, computers for virtual testing and a vast prior wealth of prior history or a simple machine that was built by trial and error and few good examples to go by?


RE: So do something about it
By MPE on 1/16/2008 12:21:22 PM , Rating: 2
Does your and parent's paycheck depend on video games pricing like the gas prices and the state of the economy?
Does your city budget have a line item for video games in their yearly budget?
Does your dad get a tax break based on gas prices?
Does your parents consider a car based on video game prices?
Does the leader of the free world sends thousands of 17-24 year old to fight for video game prices?
Does congress approve of sale of arms, including nuclear, based on video game prices?

Do you want me to keep going?


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 12:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
reverse your questions the other way around.
My taxes effect my quality of life

My wages effect my quality of life

The price of one thing effects the price of another

I think the term I'm looking for is kind of new its called economics.

One thing always effects another. How about the cost of energy versus the efficiency of a vehicle?

You can keep asking me questions and I'll answer them one by one if your happy (when I come back from work).

BTW: I wouldn't doubt my city has a line item budget for video games (in the form of solitare for windows)

Software which wasn't a huge item in the days of Tetris


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 12:41:39 PM , Rating: 1
I don't know why this discussion has anything to do with price. Consumers pay what they think is a fair price and companies market their products at what they think the consumers (as a whole) are willing to pay. If the price is too high the marketer will have to lower it. It's the simple law of supply and demand. There's no need to even discuss that here.

The other interesting tidbit that keeps me thinking is the pirates these company executives argue that are costing them money in reality probably don't cost them nearly as much as they are claiming. The simple fact is those people who choose to play pirated games in all likelihood would never have bought their product in the first place. And there are others who after playing the game might choose to purchase the game or convince others to purchase it based on their experience. If the game is a good one, you can see the possibility of a positive trickle down effect if the situation is handled properly.

Also, Steam regularly screens out duplicate product key's online. If someone is playing with a duplicate key, prevent them from getting the full experience.

There are many roads companies can take to improve there bottom line without affecting their relationship with customers. If Paris Hilton can make money with no talent then companies should be able to as well.


RE: So do something about it
By superkdogg on 1/17/2008 1:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with your post quite a lot.

Point 1. People playing pirate copies |= Number of sales lost. It's not even close. Many of those people are not even in the US and wouldn't even have the ability to purchase the product. Not to mention the number of 12 year olds who can't afford it or their parents won't let them play.

Point 2. Utilize the other revenue streams. If Targus is trying to sell me a lappy bag while my level loads instead of some dumb frozen screenshot, I'm ok with that. Nvidia is already telling me about 'the way it's meant to be played' while the game loads.... The obvious comparison here is television. Cable fees are for premium content and even on cable the majority of revenue is advertising. I honestly would rather see all the cars in a game be Fords or "This map is brought to you by your friends at Delta. Fly with us" to me, as a relatively unwealthy person those are good ideas. If somebody has the extra money to pay for non-ad games, that's fine and let them do so. Let the two groups play together online and have one group be able to stare at a building, while in the 'free version' the building has a huge Verizon Wireless ad. I'd actually argue that the ad-supported version is more true to real-life.

I don't support pirating, but I similarly don't support studios crying about the way things used to be while refusing to adapt. The physical disk that you walk out the door with is not the game anymore. The download that you got and the other people you play with online is the game now. Charging $50 for the disk is dinosaurish. Charge me $10 and sell advertising or allow me to buy ad-free for $50. Offerring products for only one price point is antiquated, and studios should create more flexibility. Even music has adapted somewhat and television has really adapted with web-only broadcasts and other enhancements.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/17/2008 1:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you.


RE: So do something about it
By derwin on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By ikkeman on 1/16/2008 11:43:01 AM , Rating: 5
so if you can't afford something, it's ok to steal it ???
The other choice - don't buy it doesn't even register ???

I am in a very similar situation (more rent, less bills) and do buy the games (don't care about music - radio is good enough).
How: I save. Save a penny everyday and that shit. Yeah, it did take me a while to get the money, but I now play my very own (and rather honest) game.

Stop whining about not having the money, at least you're worm in the winter and have pre-packaged food in your house!


RE: So do something about it
By derwin on 1/16/2008 4:24:10 PM , Rating: 2
I am in NO way saying its ok, or justified. I am telling you why I would do it if I did.
Theft is bad, granted, but I just can't seem to care when I consider who I would be stealing from.

And I understand you on the penny pinching. I do it for other entertainment, but at the cost of my abilty to ever really afford any games.

P.S., if I were to have stolen games, it would be relatively few, and mostly they are the ones you could only find at used game shops anyway.


RE: So do something about it
By sh3rules on 1/16/2008 12:34:29 PM , Rating: 5
Games like the original Deus Ex are rare; those games that offer many hours of entertainment for the price. I find fault with someone who can afford games but still gets them for free. I would never pirate games since I can afford some, but I wouldn't count as a "loss" a pirated game from someone who never would've bought it in the first place.

The analogy of stealing a car is completely wrong, and is little more than corporate propaganda. The industry doesn't care so much about intellectual property, and more about the mighty dollar (which is what industries worry about anyway). It would be a different thing if there were a finite number of games available, or if the number of pirated copies equated lost sales -which by any stretch of the imagination will never be the case.


RE: So do something about it
By murphyslabrat on 1/16/2008 1:16:05 PM , Rating: 2
The reason you don't go to a movie theater every night is because of the cost of doing so. However, if you could sneak in when you don't have the money, then there would be no incentive to get the money.

Lost sales are not just on the immediate product, they are also on parallel and future products: enough time goes by without you playing a new game, and you will buy one. If those games are available for free, then there is no reason for you to want to save/spend money for them.

Furthermore, with video-games offering 10-15 hours of gameplay for single-player, that comes out to about $3-5 an hour for entertainment. Now, when you have a fun multiplayer game, like Counter-Strike...I spent $3 at Value Village (a thrift shop)on an unactivated, used copy of Half-Life, and that registered as a HL: Platinum Edition, with Counter-strike. Normally, it would cost $10-$20 for that, but this was the single greatest deal I have ever had. Now logging in more than 60 hours, it would beat the theater for price/entertainment at $100!


RE: So do something about it
By nvalhalla on 1/16/2008 2:26:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
if you could sneak in when you don't have the money, then there would be no incentive to get the money.


Yes, piracy keeps me from getting a new job. As I can steal games, I now have no incentive to get more money....

I have played games I don't own, generally borrowed from someone else, which I don't consider stealing. I do so because I can't drop $50 on a new game when it comes out to see if I like it. I usually play it for an hour of two, lose interest and never play it again (ie Hellgate) I would be very upset over spending that much money on a game for a few hours of play. If it's a game I really like (ie HL2) AND the price drops to $30 or less, then I'll buy it.

I also don't tend to go to the theater for the same reason, I wait for rental on Netflix. I can't justify spending $7 for 90 minutes of entertainment either.


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 2:30:49 PM , Rating: 1
You forgot to add <sarcasm></sarcasm> to your post. The holier than thou folk will miss it otherwise.


RE: So do something about it
By hondaman on 1/17/2008 3:12:33 AM , Rating: 2
You think THOSE bills are rough... just wait till you get a social life and a girlfriend.

You havent seen nothin yet son.


RE: So do something about it
By ebakke on 1/16/2008 10:25:15 AM , Rating: 2
Ok, just take a few deep breaths. Relax.

I never said I wanted anything free of charge. And I certainly never said I wanted my actions to be free of any consequence. I don't, however, like paying $50 for a game that yields 5-10 hours of entertainment, only to throw it on the shelf. It's rare to find a game that provides countless hours of entertainment, but for those that do, I'm more than willing to spend $50. But less expensive is always better (to me), and if I could save $10 and have to see some unobtrusive advertisements, I'm all for it.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/2008 10:33:09 AM , Rating: 1
I have to agree. In reality, the prices that are being charged for video games and computer games right now are way too high for what you are getting.

If something is a massively-multiplayer online RPG, yeah, it's worth the per-month costs usually (World of Warcraft as an example of a game worth the money).
However, most 'side-scrolling' and 'adventure' games are not worth that amount of money. I was playing Psychonauts free on GameTap recently and while I admit that it is one heck of a game..... it is not worth the $50 dollars I read that it cost when the game first came out.

The $20 dollars they are asking now is much more reasonable, but still a little high..... $15 dollars would be about what I would pay for it. Same thing for Tomb Raider: Legend. A great game, but at the $40 dollars it was when it first came out, too expensive for what you get, especially considering that it is SHORT AS HECK!


RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:04:14 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I have to agree. In reality, the prices that are being charged for video games and computer games right now are way too high for what you are getting.
Maybe you should start a development company and make them cheaper, then? Think of how much money you'd make by charging less since it only costs like $1000 to develop a game?


RE: So do something about it
By d0gb0y on 1/16/2008 12:17:24 PM , Rating: 2
If you think a price of a game to the value of re-play (or what ever your criteria is) then DON'T BUY IT. But you can't steal it either. If you steal, your saying, "Yeah, this is worth my time, but I'm a cheap bastard!"


RE: So do something about it
By sweetsauce on 1/16/2008 10:47:29 AM , Rating: 4
Heres an idea, if you don't feel the $50 isn't worth the amount of time you enjoy it, then don't buy it. Doesn't mean you're entitled to steal it.


RE: So do something about it
By clovell on 1/16/2008 10:52:11 AM , Rating: 2
We have a winner.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/16/2008 12:31:45 PM , Rating: 5
Or make a decision and say, "I like the look of this game, but not at $50. I think $X is reasonable."
Then pick the game up in a month or two (or six, or twelve) when it has reached $X.


RE: So do something about it
By PitViper007 on 1/16/2008 12:54:31 PM , Rating: 2
Which is what I usually end up doing. Hmmm. Black & White was great at the $10 I spent on it.....


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/18/2008 7:46:57 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it great to find a classic at low cost, like Black and White (I enjoyed the sequel too), Dawn of war (I picked up the anthology cheap and now have like 3 copies of DOW, great for your own lan parties too).

I am sorry to hear another poster stating that they can't find older games. Some of the older games have way more replayability and content...


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By JustTom on 1/16/2008 11:57:36 AM , Rating: 2
You have no other recourse? None at all?


RE: So do something about it
By Netscorer on 1/16/2008 11:20:15 AM , Rating: 2
Why are we so deadlocked on the $50 price tag? Games get cheaper almost every month after the initial release and most of the games lose more then 50% of their cost over the first year even before they get into a bargain bin. There are tons of great games that run perfectly on even a budget PCs and cost no more then $15-$20.
So if someone can't realistically justify spending $50 for a brand new game, does not mean that he/she has moral justification to steal it. It's like with cars. Everyone has to drive one. But not everyone can afford buying a Lexus or BMW. That does not mean there are no Kias and Saturns that still run great and get you to your destinations just as good.


RE: So do something about it
By robinthakur on 1/16/2008 11:13:25 AM , Rating: 3
I think the people who frequent Dailytech are either incredibly naive or virtuous or else just lying their asses off if they claim that they've never pirated any games. This issue is so widespread I find it hard to believe. You won't cure piracy by reducing prices, let me tell you that, because the best price from a user's level is free. Nothing beats that. You don't have to leave the house because it all comes down the broadband connection. I would say in this case that Infinity Ward needs to make it a complete hassle to pirate and play the game (especially online, though this should be obvious) which normally puts most people off piracy because they're lazy and don't want to search the internet to find a workaround or crack.

The majority of the anti piracy methods i've ever seen do not hurt or prevent piracy. They penalise and antagonise end users. Game Server authenticated keys are the only way to reduce piracy but the big release groups will usually find a way.

Piracy will usually be worse on PC because users are necessarily more technical and you don't need the added expense and hassle of mod chips/voided warranties.

The mentality you are having to confront are users who pirate all games, all music and all movies and can't remember doing anything else. I personally only buy Blu-ray movies and PS3 games because all the rest can be obtained other ways (I own a Wii, 360, PS3, PS2, PCs). Having said that, I haven't downloaded, bought or played anything on the pc recently (Like within the last 2 years) because even downloading the games became more hassle than I could be bothered with especially as I'd play each game for maybe an hour and then never again. If you are smart enough to use google and to understand how to crack games then its up to the publishers to deter pirates in other ways. Appealing to the public's sense of decency is pointless because the public do not care about the earnings of games publishers/music companies, they care only about getting caught and fined/jailed (remote chance) or where it will download from the fastest...


RE: So do something about it
By InsaneGain on 1/16/2008 3:00:05 PM , Rating: 3
It is basically right out of first year psychology. Generally, if people can steal something without suffering any consequences, they will do so. It is self-maximizing behavior. They will then come up with all kinds of excuses legitimizing why they should every right. I hear the exact same excuses for pirating music: price too high, people can't afford it, the quality isn't worth paying. These same people also happily buy thousands of dollars worth of computer/audio/video hardware to consume the entertainment. If they could somehow steal the hardware without consequence, they would do this as well, and claim (and maybe delude themselves) that "the hardware is too expensive and the companies are making too much money, the quality isn't any good, I can't afford it.". The reality is that, in general, peoples' behavior is guided by very primitive ethics concepts. People don't commit acts that are personally beneficial but destructive to society because they fear sanctions by the authorities. It’s the only thing that keeps society from collapsing. They then delude themselves that they actually are guided by lofty ethics. If stealing intellectual property had consistent consequences, then people would again start paying for it, the laws of supply and demand would determine price level and quantity sold, incentives would return, and the industry would flourish and innovate.


RE: So do something about it
By killerb255 on 1/16/2008 5:40:42 PM , Rating: 3
NOW we have a winner.

It's harsh, but it's true.

There's a zone that morals and ethics tend to cross--a zone that basically makes them one and the same. Self-maximization is that zone. People want to get the most out of life as they can yielding as little of their own resources as possible.

Sociopathy would be the next logical step: sociopaths don't have any fear of moral, ethical, or legal consequences (other than getting caught and being taken away from the things they like).

Also, some use car theft as an analogy during discussions about piracy. I think "car cloning" would be a better analogy. If there was a such thing as a cloning device that could clone automobiles, then of course the automotive industry would cry foul.

I think there's a far less moral impact in society from "cloning" rather than flat-out "stealing." If you steal someone's car, you now have it, but the person you stole it from doesn't. To the victim, it's an inconvenience on a number of levels.

On the other hand, if you clone someone's car, do you think the vehicle's driver would even care?

That's what's going on in the 21st century with the creation and sales of data. Many people don't see moral wrongdoing with intellectual theft (which, to them, is nothing but cloning).


RE: So do something about it
By xsilver on 1/16/2008 7:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
totally agree,
but here's a crazy thought - If all the piracy in the world stopped overnight what would happen?

1) everybody would buy the game/cd/dvd
2) we'd have millions of youths wondering the streets with nothing to do?

#1 would lead to some very rich dev's but would that necessarily reduce the price?
#2 can lead to some very bad things (read:riots) so maybe the mpaa/riaa/game devs are just paying for some babysitting of society? :P


RE: So do something about it
By superkdogg on 1/17/2008 1:47:56 PM , Rating: 2
You're mostly right, but you miss one key point. People only fear sanctions if they are relatively sure they'll get caught.

Nobody drives 150 mph because you'd get arrested. Everybody goes 5-10 over because even though it's illegal you don't get busted.

Similarly, downloading every available game and burning them for your own resale is probably going to get you notices and/or arrested. DL'ing a couple games is probably going to keep you under the radar and you won't get in any trouble.

I guess the oranges/apples comparison comes down to the number of people hurt by 'slightly' illegal behavior like driving 10 mph over or pirating a couple games. There are probably a significant number of people killed because of the increased speed. There are probably some developers out of work and/or shareholders or execs that don't get return on investment because of piracy.

The devil of this issue is deciding where to draw the lines. 10 mph over is illegal, but so is 1 mph. Pirating a ton of games is also illegal, but so is just one song. As a society people need to realistically assign the value they place on the work people do.

If you ask me, studios need to step back and look at a bigger picture of US culture (since that's where the businesses behind many games are HQ'd). They basic gripe is, "Hey, no fair. People aren't as honest as we want them to be and it costs us." Well, no duh, Sherlock. Get in line behind victims of violent crime, law enforcement, and everybody else who deals with societal ills. While you're at it, come up with a feasible solution rather than just whining.


RE: So do something about it
By theprodigalrebel on 1/16/2008 12:55:26 PM , Rating: 3
I live in India. Not much of a gamer but I am a big movie fan. Until last year, I'd rent DVDs and rip them to my hard-drive (for repeat viewings). Reason? DVD pricing here was exactly the same as North American pricing - $10 to $15. Buying movies was expensive and I rarely did it. I was exactly the kind of person that gave people like the MPAA nightmares.

I'd walk into the biggest CD/DVD stores here and see barely 2-5 units in stock - and they'd sit there on the shelf for weeks (or months) before the store finally cleared their stock. Everyone's opinion was, "Why should we pay American prices when we make several times less money than they do?"

Sometime in early '07, the industry totally changed their strategy. $1 for low-budget/commercially-unsuccessful movies and about $3 for AAA-certified blockbusters. Walk into a store now and it isn't rare to see families walking out with anywhere from 5-20 DVDs.

It's all about finding the right price. Some people believe a pirate will always be a pirate because 'why pay even $1 when you can get it for free?' Piracy is wrong but if you want to fix it, quit the morality campaign, slash prices and watch your product fly off the shelves.


RE: So do something about it
By RedStar on 1/16/2008 2:48:26 PM , Rating: 2
well at least India has NA market funding the development costs of movies/games.

yet another reason why we still see high prices here.


RE: So do something about it
By ZapatistasLL on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By InsaneGain on 1/16/2008 3:29:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Has anyone ever considered that piracy is perhaps making more good than harm ???

Piracy artificially lowers legitimate demand for a product that society actually values. This sends incorrect market signals, and incorrectly leads to lower investment in terms of talent and capital in the industry. That is economically destructive. One only has to examine the undeniable economic failure of communism to see the results of sending artificial and incorrect market signals. I think the support of piracy can be seen as a form of socialism.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy music/software. They are not essential services. The price and profits are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Just as anyone else in free society, entertainment companies have every right, and are expected to ask the highest price they can for their product. These signals will attract more resources to the industry, more competition, and ultimately the competition will lower prices and create more selection. If you are interested, read about "the invisible hand" in the world renown "The Wealth of Nations" by economist Adam Smith.


RE: So do something about it
By Chosonman on 1/16/2008 3:42:23 PM , Rating: 3
It depends on who you're talking about. The vast majority come from third world countries that don't have the money to pay what we in the United States pay for those goods. Even in the U.S. the majority of these people I would say are kids, college student, and those will less than adequate economic means to support a steady diet of new music cd's, DVD, and video games. So saying piracy creates an artificial demand is a bit of a stretch. Some of it may be true, but not to the scale the industry wants us to believe. The simple fact is most of these people could not afford or are willing to buy all this media at once. In a way the person you are quoting is right. The companies that produce the intellectual content are getting much more exposure than they would have otherwise gotten without the medium of illegal copying of media.


RE: So do something about it
By ZapatistasLL on 1/16/2008 9:16:19 PM , Rating: 2

Well I disagree with that. You see people tend to count piracy as a loss. i.e. 100.000 sold 100.000 pirated, if there was no piracy one would sell 200.000, WRONG !!

The fact of the matter is that the 100.000 people who pirated the music CD or the game would have never bought it in the first place (or a very large percentage of them), in reality things that you value you buy.. things that in your brain you do not attach any monetary (=real world value) to you do not wish to buy or spend money for..

let me give you an analogy.. if I buy a game, I play it, finish it and then (after time t) I give it to you, and then you play it... total number of customers 1,
if I buy the game and copy it and give it to you, total number of customers (shocking...still 1 ) only difference is there is no delay time t between the two of us..
BIG DEAL ....
The difference is companies believe that if they exclude us from having it, most of us will be forced to buy it.. wrong. .
Most of you argue that if you cannot afford $50 for a game wait for a couple of months and then spend $10 on it second hand... That is my friends the real value of the thing.. less than 10 bux, if the company knows that their product will worth $10 after 60 days... why release it at $50 ?
So it is not the "stealing" that annoys people it is a class thing.. I can afford it now.. and I will play it now, and you cannot afford it so you will have to wait 60 or so days... and I would be annoyed if you got it now and for free!!!!!! whoa.... a fantastic argument...

People have been copying (i.e. pirating movies) for a long time now... Movie studios still make a ton of money and then some.. you know why.. because we like going to the movies... we like the experience.. not just the film...!!!!

At what point do we stop justifying everything with competition and free market nonsense...????


RE: So do something about it
By robinthakur on 1/17/2008 5:50:27 AM , Rating: 2
Having come back to actually buying games for the PS3, 360, Wii and Blu Ray recently it feels like this is a really expensive hobby whereas before where I just used to download all my content it wasn't. Mind you, to some, the cost of the hardware is considered expensive. I no longer download and burn thousands of games, which makes me more discerning. It does make me realise unfortunately that content is generally overvalued. In this case, the legal solution is just to rent and not buy, which is more affordable.

Piracy, in general, only helps popularise a platform in certain specific circumstances (e.g. the ubiquitous modded PS1/PS2) but not for fledgling platforms such as e.g. Dreamcast which have not yet achieved critical mass. Which was deccimated and ultimately destroyed by piracy. How and why this happens depends very much on the sophistication of the platforms' users (ability to modchip/crack/available bandwidth/ease of duplication) and also on the growth of the internet. I daresay the challenge of being able to mod a machine and copy games is also alluring especially when you get free content at the end of it. The PC ranks quite low on its difficulty of pirating content (and most of the game playing users are highly technical), simply because all protection is done in easy to break software and so many other people are also pirating games that finding helpful resources is a no brainer. Finding this information was ALOT more difficult in the past before the internet and broadband trust me! Ever since the internet first came about, people became used to not paying for content.

It also depends on whether the duplicate made is on an equal level to the original or whether compromises have been made. Now that digital transfers provides (99% of the time) a 'perfect' copy, people are less likely to pay for what they can get for free. Most people are not so picky, they just want a best-fit solution which is priced lowest and convenience. The more people that do it merely reinforces the 'social-proof' concept so its definitely not a good idea to heavily publicise the fact that maybe 98% of people play pirated copies of COD4 online because the 2% who bought the game will likely emulate them in the future and not bother paying. As with many things, the Media can heavily influence society's behaviour here. The problem with piracy now is not that it exists but that it has become mainstream, accessible to all.


RE: So do something about it
By psypher on 1/16/2008 9:59:41 AM , Rating: 2
Back when Tetris came out in the 80's on the good old NES, I plopped down my $44 for it happily. With inflation, that is way more than your $50 for COD4. And COD4 had a hell of a lot more development money sunk into it (although tetris is still one of the greatest games ever). The price of video games has come down over the years while the cost of making them has gone up. Sounds like we got a good deal.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 10:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
I got the feeling that they are using a copies sold versus copies being played ratio to figure out the projected theft rate.

After all, if you sold 1,000,000 copies and have 1,000,000 playing it the probability that every owner of the game is playing it at the exact same time are pretty much nil.


RE: So do something about it
By Christopher1 on 1/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So do something about it
By BMFPitt on 1/16/2008 11:05:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, no, it isn't. Not when you take into account that in a household, you might have MANY people playing under the same account number: i.e grandma, grandpa, mom, dad, the kids.
And which current games are there that allow this?


RE: So do something about it
By SeeManRun on 1/16/2008 10:41:18 AM , Rating: 2
Log onto a torrent site and punch in a new game. The amount of people downloading it is disturbing, given that the number you see is just from one torrent site and only at that moment.


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/16/2008 12:51:00 PM , Rating: 2
Looking at a couple of sites deliberately to gauge the traffic level suggests numerous torrents (not all are likely to be real). The number of downloads varies from a few for fakes to just under 5,000 downloads. So I suspect the total amount of piracy is below the 100k mark (at present...).


RE: So do something about it
By PlasmaBomb on 1/18/2008 7:48:52 AM , Rating: 2
I forgot to include people who would download it to sell it illegitimately.

http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601887/crab-exchang...


RE: So do something about it
By Proteusza on 1/16/2008 10:02:27 AM , Rating: 2
I really hope they dont do that.

if I pay for a game, I pay to not see advertisements. I dont mind ads placed tastefully on billboards etc that dont interfere with the game or dont look out of place.

But if I'm forced to look into a distracting advert, when I already gave you money? I wont buy any games from said developer again.

In the same vein, I dont like it when publishers force you to watch an intro movie advertising them. EA games is always guilty of this. I gave you your pint of blood, I know who made the game, let me play it in peace!

What they need to do to stop PC game piracy is switch to a proprietary format, such as a special DVD. A game should check to see whether the dvd is a valid special game dvd. I'm aware games could still be pirated using inventive techniques, but it should deter the casual pirates, while not really inconveniencing anyone or requiring invasion of computers.

Another way is to introduce game dongles. A gamer purchases licenses, which are encrypted and stored on the dongle. He takes this dongle everywhere with him, and can then play his games whereever he goes (depending on whether he can get the game media of course). It could also store preferred key settings etc.


RE: So do something about it
By SirLucius on 1/16/2008 10:11:15 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Another way is to introduce game dongles. A gamer purchases licenses, which are encrypted and stored on the dongle. He takes this dongle everywhere with him, and can then play his games whereever he goes (depending on whether he can get the game media of course). It could also store preferred key settings etc.


That's how a lot of the more expensive audio and video software packages work. The program only launches if you have the dongle plugged into the computer. While it's still possible to crack and run a pirated copy, it's more work for the pirate and more work for the end user to get things up and running. More work for the end user = less people pirating. Part of the the reason piracy is so prominent is because it's mind-numbingly easy to do. Introduce some work into the equation and you're sure to see the numbers fall.


RE: So do something about it
By christojojo on 1/16/2008 10:23:14 AM , Rating: 3
I think the idea is great with one caveat trading dongles.

Ahhh, I can see it now....

I'll play with your dongle, if you play with mine.

or

For sale: one slightly used dongle. It kept me happy on lonely nights but I must part with it.