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California's state Senate curbs a high-tech societal dilemma by making it illegal for employers to require ID chips implanted in their employees

Radio Frequency ID chip-maker VeriChip's slogan is "RFID for people."  The company grabbed headlines in October 2004 when it  gained FDA approval for its subdermal RFID implant.  The RFID chip measured in at 12 mm by 2.1 mm and allowed implantees to be identified and tracked using broadcast radio identification.

The chips are marketed for everything from medical tracking and identification, to security applications.

Last year, the Cincinnati based video-surveillance firm CityWatcher.com, mandated any employee that worked in its secure data center to get implanted with one of VeriChip's implants.  Two of its employees received the implants. 

Also, last year, blog RFID Lowdown reported that Hackensack University Medical Center, in Hackensack, New Jersey nominated patients for a study on the usefulness of these implants. These potential implantees suffer from chronic conditions like heart disease, epilepsy and diabetes.  Patients with these conditions will be placed a two-year program that will test "personal health record modules" inserted just beneath their skin.

Enormous controversy was generated by these moves, because the concept of employer required implants, or the possibility of involuntary medical implanting was seen by many as a dangerous high-tech invasion of privacy.  Also, concerns of the security of these devices’s information were also raised, as RFID chips have been publically compromised.

In response to these concerns the state of Wisconsin recently passed a bill that banned anyone, including the employers and the government, from implanting RFID chips in anyone without consent.

The LA Times reports that the California State Senate has passed a bill that goes one step farther, by banning employers from requiring employees to receive implants.  Nine senators voted against the bill, including Bob Margett (R-Arcadia), who is quoted by the Times as saying it was premature to regulate technology that has not yet proved to be a problem.

"It sounded like it was a solution looking for a problem, it didn't seem like it was necessary," Margett is quoted as saying.

An observation on both bills is that neither explicitly bans employers from asking their employees to voluntarily get implants.  Neither bill bans employers from rewarding employees who get voluntarily implanted.


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Implant in Child?
By whataboutthechildren on 9/3/2007 11:49:30 PM , Rating: 2
I'm curious what you all think about this concept in a child. As a new dad, I'm sickened by the thought of pervs abducting my child. And let's face it, either there are more pervs today or we hear about them more via mass media. Either way, I want to be safe.

My dilemnas would be a) security of the implant, and b) when to tell the child (and remove the implant)....8, 12, 16? I'm thinking earlier rather than later...kid's gotta get on and roll at some point without parents looking over the shoulder.

But, there are serious ethical questions that I just can't answer at this point. Dangerous world vs. free will maybe. I just want my baby to be safe...

Thoughts?




RE: Implant in Child?
By Howard on 9/3/2007 11:58:59 PM , Rating: 3
On the one hand, I feel that children are the responsibility of the parents and therefore the decision rests on their shoulders. On the other hand, if the parents supervise the children properly, there should not be any need for such tracking devices.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Lord 666 on 9/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: Implant in Child?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 9/4/2007 2:27:47 AM , Rating: 5
Keep in mind, RFID only works when a sensor is in close proximity to the chip. A tracking device might have saved here, but more likely it would have just been able to help investigators follow her last steps.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Lord 666 on 9/4/2007 2:43:27 AM , Rating: 1
The essence of the article is implantable technology to track or identify. RFID, cellular, and/or GPS enable the same functionality but at different ranges.

Currently and through through the use of cellphone towers and GPS, a person's position can be triangulated - http://support.vzw.com/features/data_services/chap...

and

http://spacecom.grc.nasa.gov/icnsconf/docs/2003/07...

Instead of keeping the tracking chip in the cellphone that can be easily smashed or dunked in water, it can be implanted - in both children and convicted child molesters.


RE: Implant in Child?
By marvdmartian on 9/4/2007 9:15:05 AM , Rating: 2
You do realize that tracking someone's cell phone is facilitated more easily because that cell phone has an active transceiver in it, right? So until we can implant cell phones in people's heads, then chipping them with an RFID is still only going to be good for short range.

The best method at this point in time to keep track of which kid belongs to who, is to handprint & footprint them, and do dna sampling, when they're a baby. It doesn't keep them from being snatched, but it does prove who they are, down the road, if it's suspected that the child isn't who the kidnapper says they are.


RE: Implant in Child?
By LogicallyGenius on 9/4/2007 9:30:47 AM , Rating: 1
So these RFID cant be cut removed from children ?

What a pain that will be on poor children adding to the abduction


RE: Implant in Child?
By Xerstead on 9/4/2007 1:21:31 PM , Rating: 2
Lets record DNA and fingerprints of every child. Easy enough to argue, but remember; in 20-30+ years time the government will have a record of every adult.


RE: Implant in Child?
By SlyNine on 9/5/2007 4:47:37 AM , Rating: 1
This is very dangerous and gives the government way to much power over the people.


RE: Implant in Child?
By slunkius on 9/4/2007 1:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
"supervise" like keep an eye on them 100% of the time? guess you haven't spent much time with children


RE: Implant in Child?
By Lord 666 on 9/4/2007 2:23:06 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, quite the opposite about the amount of time spent with children. I am speaking as an educator and parent.


RE: Implant in Child?
By PAPutzback on 9/4/2007 8:06:53 AM , Rating: 1
You must not have kids. They aren't like puppies that stay right by your side. They wander off and get abducted at all ages. At what age would you let your child take the dog out or put the mail in mailbox. My guess is whatever age you come up with that a child has been abducted at that age. Given I have been at local festivals where I see kids running around by themselves for long times but luckily where I live right now they keep lots of cops on hand at the festivals.

I wish they could put locators in the children or atleast get them cheap enough so they can be embedded in all their clothes.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Crank the Planet on 9/4/2007 6:54:30 PM , Rating: 3
This is the Borg Collective. Prepare to be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctives to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

http://www.worthynews.com/news-features/resistance...

Wow. it's amazing what a little research will do. We have lived for thousands upon thousands of years without tracking devices and we can go for thousands upon thousands more without them. If this ever becomes mandatory you'd better run for your life!

Fight for you right to privacy! No one deserves to be tracked like an animal.


RE: Implant in Child?
By number999 on 9/4/2007 12:06:47 AM , Rating: 2
Try this. A cancelled tv show called Century City about lawyers in the future tackling some tech trends that happen today and the impact of the tech.

In this episode kid has a chip tracking device and constainst monitoring.
http://www.tv.com/century-city/without-a-tracer/ep...

The thing is, even if you have the chip implanted, what's going to stop someone from figuring it out and removing it or worse yet because the tech is out there, the perp decides to ensure his own safety by immediately doing what he's going to do and then tying up the loose ends as fast as possible. Macabre but that's just what might happen.


RE: Implant in Child?
By JonnyDough on 9/4/2007 1:30:13 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. If it's common standard to put it in a child's left arm, we're going to have a few right handed rescued kids running around...


RE: Implant in Child?
By Lord 666 on 9/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Implant in Child?
By Zelvek on 9/4/2007 1:58:08 AM , Rating: 2
I think all of you are a little mixed up on how these implants work you cant track anyone who is any great distance from you. This chips are not like GPS or anything that sophisticated I have yet to hear of them exceeding a range of 500M.

You might say if authority's had an area narrowed down they could search it much faster. However half a kilometer is the max distance in lab conditions. With all the EMI and RFI of the real world and the further possibility that the chip is being shielded or has been destroyed... RFID tags are not likely to make a huge difference just yet.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Lord 666 on 9/4/2007 2:29:34 AM , Rating: 1
Not mixed up at all. Via the use of cellphone towers, a person's position can be triangulated.

http://support.vzw.com/features/data_services/chap...

Instead of keeping the tracking chip in the cellphone that can be easily smashed or dunked in water, it can be implanted.


RE: Implant in Child?
By smitty3268 on 9/4/2007 5:13:05 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, RFID doesn't work that way. Mostly because you can't stick a huge battery into it that gets recharged every night. Unless they're withing a couple feet of the cellphone tower, there just isn't any way to detect it.

At least not yet, who knows what the technology will be like in 10 years.


RE: Implant in Child?
By SilthDraeth on 9/4/2007 10:12:07 AM , Rating: 3
You keep expressing this view that we can magically track RFID from cell towers, and people keep countering you, and yet you persist?

Cell phones are powered by batteries and transmit at a much greater power than an RFID chip.

The way the use them to track lost dogs, is when a dog gets turned into the pound, it is scanned at close range, and then they have the information. You can't just simply scan an entire city block, or state for a specific RFID number and triangulate its location within meters.


RE: Implant in Child?
By rockyct on 9/4/2007 2:00:59 AM , Rating: 2
RFID is not a location tracking type device. It's just a very detailed ID card inside you. Unless there are RFID readers at every street corner, it's not going to help find someone. There are some worthwhile uses for RFID implants, but it's much easier to become a privacy issue because the chips can be scanned without you knowing it.


RE: Implant in Child?
By derdon on 9/4/2007 4:56:57 AM , Rating: 2
So, when you think it's okay for children to be equipped with such a thing, when they grow up, what stops them from equipping you with such a thing, when it's you who needs to be monitored?

"I just want my baby to be safe"
You can't safe them from living though...
If you have a pet, you can make two decisions:
a) put it in a cage and have it safe
b) let it out and live

Yes, it may die earlier from b, but what are the extra years worth of a)?


RE: Implant in Child?
By rdeegvainl on 9/4/2007 7:44:05 AM , Rating: 2
Or you could fence in your yard with the pet, put some poles in the ground at a regular interval to prevent digging and let it run around all day when your gone. Though I still got mine tagged in case someone steals it.
But with kids? these technologies are yet advanced enough to be effective. But I see no problem with it when the technology is effective enough to be useful. It's not about keeping them safe from life, it's about helping locate missing children. They also should set up a system for removing either due to age or other extreme circumstances.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Misty Dingos on 9/4/2007 8:36:22 AM , Rating: 2
What we have here parents and kids is a failure of imagination.

I would think that anyone that is planning, willing and determined to abduct your or anyone's child for vile purposes, it is inconceivable to me that they would not have a plan in mind to disable the implant.

Keep in mind this is someone who is going to rape and murder a child. How would detecting and removing an RFID implant be an impediment? If it took them ten minutes I would be surprised. Once the implant is gone what good did it do to treat your child like a dog?

Now if you want to protect your kid try this. Have a stay at home parent. Oh my god! How freaky is that? Mom stays home (or for you folks in CA. Dad could stay home as an alternative). Then there is a parent to look out for the child and the parents get the added benefit that they don't have to pay for child care. Their child will do better in school and be better adjusted also. Yes studies do support that a child that has a parent that actually raises them do better in life. Go figure thousands of years of civilization had it right and foisting your child off on some daycare center isn't all that good for the tikes.

And for those of you that really can't let go of the idea that the high tech solution is the way to go. Get a powered transmitter that resides in a nearly unbreakable wrist band. It could be set to transmit the location and health of your child at regular intervals. It could recharge by being in proximity of the child say during night when they are in bed. If your child is abducted it could emit an ear piercing sound and transmit it's location to the police immediately. Or if it left a predetermined area. And you haven't treated you kid like a dog. I would also include a high pressure dye in the wrist band that would spray in all directions if the band is tampered with. Is it foolproof? No but I think it is a better idea than treating your child like an animal. Would it stop a determined child predator? Probably not. But it might make finding the child or prosecuting the offender easier.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Christopher1 on 9/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Implant in Child?
By Christopher1 on 9/4/07, Rating: -1
RE: Implant in Child?
By fic2 on 9/4/2007 12:44:53 PM , Rating: 3
You have got to be freakin' kidding me! Every sex act that a pedophile engages in with a child is a rape. Children don't have the capacity to decide whether they want to have sex with an adult. That is why there is a separate classification for it.

I have never heard such bullsh*t. I would like you to be able to find any parent, or normal adult for that matter, that would just stand by and let a child be propositioned by a pedophile and allow the child to accept it.

I think you need to see a therapist about your "nice" experiences.


RE: Implant in Child?
By SlyNine on 9/5/2007 4:57:44 AM , Rating: 1
Oo Wow.. Sorry every child subjected to this that I know is alot WORSE off. you need to think very carefully about your actions with children and I hope you decide to stay far far away from them.


RE: Implant in Child?
By rudy on 9/4/2007 1:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
What good would it be, its not like there are sensors for these spread out all over the country to find an abducted child. It would take probably more then a decade for this to be any bit usefull in that scenario.

What sucks is if you switch jobs and they have to keep cutting the old one out and putting new ones in. I think this is kinda stupid given we have better systems in place with no such needed invasive devices. Finger print and retinal scanners should just be installed in areas requiring this much security. They will uniquely Identify people.


RE: Implant in Child?
By Martimus on 9/4/2007 1:51:22 PM , Rating: 2
I would never put one of these implants in my daughter. Free will is far more important than safety in my opinion. Safety isn't even on the same level. Also, having a constant radio wave emminating from your body from such a young age is almost sure to increase the chances of contracting cancer. The body is still developing, so the extra radiation is even more likely to cause a cell to mutate into something cancerous. I am not about to take those chances with my daughter, just so I can have more peace of mind. If I am really worried about her safety, I just have to spend more time with her and make sacrifices in other parts of my life.


RE: Implant in Child?
By timmiser on 9/4/2007 2:47:28 PM , Rating: 1
I think that's a great idea and I would probably keep their until age 16.

I'm 42 years old and I wouldn't mine having an implant that my loved ones could locate me if I ever became missing.

It would also be cool to have these little buggers on higher valued property to track down in case of theft.


RE: Implant in Child?
By GeorgeOu on 9/13/2007 8:24:44 PM , Rating: 2
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=301
Verichip implants are WORTHLESS from a security standpoint. They're essentially passing plain text over the air and anyone can clone it. If it's cloned (which has been demonstrated), you'll have to undergo knife treatment to get a new one unless the chip is reprogrammable.

As for kids getting abducted, I have two kids and I can tell you that RFID isn't going to make me feel any better. First of all, that RFID implant isn't going to be a "LoJack" device for children and you're not going to be able to track them down if they're abducted. Second, having the RFID implant might mean the abductor will mutilate your child to take the implant out.

The one place I think RFID implants make sense is for medical purposes. If it makes it easier for emergency workers to identify a patient’s special needs, that’s great. There’s also new technology being developed for diabetics where the RFID sensor can wirelessly report glucose levels without you having to prick your finger every day.

However, RFID implants are absolutely worthless and even if they stopped using clear text authentication and switched to strong NSA Suite B grade crypto, I wouldn’t want it. I mean think about it; is any material item in this world worth life or limb? If someone wants my access device and password at the point of a gun to rob me, I’d give it to them. I don’t want them to have to cut it out of my body.


Impending Rapture?
By BradCube on 9/4/2007 12:26:47 AM , Rating: 3
This may end up being a quite controversial post, but I find it quite interesting/freaky to think that this technology is what Christians have been predicting for quite some time. ie, the "mark of the beast" mentioned in Revelation.

I did a little research and found that apparently the best locations for insertion are the hands and forehead. Apparently both these locations in the body generate the most heat, and therefore are most suitable for the Lithium Ion batteries used in the chips.

From the Bible: (Revelation 13:16-17)
"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name."

Coincidence or not? I don't really know but I thought it was interesting nevertheless.




RE: Impending Rapture?
By JonnyDough on 9/4/2007 1:34:57 AM , Rating: 2
Others say that the mark is 666, which was the sign for Caesar. The Bible is quite old and is open to interpretation since it's been translated many times. Anyone can foresee a technological event and state something bad will happen from it, and if you wait long enough it just may come true. "I foresee men traveling in the air, and this will be a sign that the end is neigh." Anyone writing anything even remotely similar about men in the air prior to the Wright Brothers could say that everything they ever wrote was prophecy and you'd believe it. Leave the superstition at home or in your place of worship where it belongs please.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By BradCube on 9/4/2007 2:06:48 AM , Rating: 2
I understand your point. ie - someone prophesying that a building will fall isn't really prophesying because one day that building will eventually fall - hence there is no possibility that it will not happen.

I am a little lost in your flying example though. If prophecy is defined as "The foretelling or prediction of what is to come." then someone predicting that people would be able to fly 4000 yrs ago is a form of prophecy isn't it? That does not mean that I believe everything they say, nor does it even mean that I believe they actually knew that people would be able to fly, but at a basic definition level it is prophecy.

Maybe I have mis-interpreted what you have said and all you meant to say was that if there was a prophet that said that, I would believe everything they had ever said? That's a pretty big assumption to make about me - a person you have never met, and someone that didn't even say they believed that the Bible had prophecy of these RFID's.

I said it was interesting - something I still maintain considering the detail in the coincidence (ie hands and forehead).

Either way, I never intended the first post to be offensive to you or anyone else. I found it interesting and thought others might too.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By masher2 (blog) on 9/4/2007 7:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
> "someone predicting that people would be able to fly 4000 yrs ago is a form of prophecy isn't it? "

It depends on how you define prophecy. Da Vinci "prophesied" men would one day fly also. But he based his prediction on technological grounds, not mystical ones. Do you consider that prophecy? Science Fiction authors predict all sorts of strange things. Many of those come true. Is that prophecy?

If one assumes technology will advance indefinitely, then eventually, all things become possible. That means that anything we predict today-- anything at all-- will one day come true.

If that's the only standard you have-- well then, we're all amazingly accurate prophets. Time to go get a robe.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By BradCube on 9/4/2007 9:15:03 AM , Rating: 2
You bring up a very interesting point that I hadn't really thought of. If all scenarios and occurances will eventually happen, then we have effectively nullified prophecy - even if it was true or originated supernaturally. Thats the kicker for me because, even if there is such a thing as true prophecy (ie something beyond scientific prediction), then we would never believe it anyway.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By Proteusza on 9/4/2007 8:36:13 AM , Rating: 2
I think it means, it doesnt matter what you prophesize, it will come true anyway.

Because, in so many thousand years, something like that is bound to happen.

That being said, who can say what the likelihood of all us being forced to wear ID chips is? You may even say fairly high, given how we are becoming closer integrated with technology, and so it may be one of those inevitable things.

Having this potential occurence fulfil that prophecy would mean that, A) there is already a beast, known or unknown to us, and B) that that chip constitutes his mark.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 9/4/2007 9:49:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think it means, it doesnt matter what you prophesize, it will come true anyway.

There is a term, self-fulfilling prophecy. It's written in ginormous letters all the way across my blog, http://kristopher.us/
quote:
The simplest way to predict the future is to create it


RE: Impending Rapture?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/4/2007 8:58:34 AM , Rating: 1
Indeed. The point he was making is that what is written in the bible is largely hypothetical. Back when the bible was written, culture was different. Superstition was in full swing, and due to the incredibly low level of education the majority of the populace posessed there was much fear mongering. The bible, if you read it, is full of retribution, revenge, and fear. At the time people feared what they didn't understand (Which is still true today but we will come back to that point in a second). The education level being so low, many people understood very little and thus fear in most things was quite common. Fast forward 2000 years to present day and we still fear the unknown. However, there are a greater number of people these days willing to explore and question the unknown to achieve understanding, to make it known, and no longer feared. The common belief and only reason the bible hasn't been burried is that a while back they decided the bible should not be taken literally (It was for a long time). If we took the bible literally we would be like the radical extremist muslim minority. If we look at it with a grain of salt and look for the "meaning" in it, rather than taking it at face value, it retains some measure of value.

In short, don't take anything written in the bible seriously, that book had its hay day back when people were uneducated. As time passes, education grows, and intelligence rises, we see that religion shrinks.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By NetPro on 9/4/2007 12:24:05 PM , Rating: 4
With respect Master Kenobi I completely disagree with your entire post; more specifically the following six statements (my rebuttal follows each statement)…

“The bible, if you read it, is full of retribution, revenge, and fear.”

- And sex, murder, rape, incest, love, regret, anger, sorrow, passion, hate, lust, etc. but above all, truth, promise and hope! It is full of all of these because it contains the complete range of human emotion and experiences.
.

“The common belief and only reason the bible hasn't been burried is that a while back they decided the bible should not be taken literally (It was for a long time).” - “The point he was making is that what is written in the bible is largely hypothetical.” - “If we took the bible literally we would be like the radical extremist muslim minority.”

- Who is this “they” you speak of? The fact of the matter is that when the Prophets, Kings, and Apostles wrote the 66 books that comprise the Old and New Testaments they did so as eyewitnesses to the events they described. Peter said “For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty” – 2 Peter 1:16. Furthermore Doctor Luke said “Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the Word have handed them down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order” – Luke 1:1-3
.

“If we look at it with a grain of salt and look for the "meaning" in it, rather than taking it at face value, it retains some measure of value.”

- Actually we find that the Bible has the following to say regarding its value; “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” – Psalms 12:6-7. Lastly, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” – Matthew 24:35.
.

“In short, don't take anything written in the bible seriously, that book had its hay day back when people were uneducated. As time passes, education grows, and intelligence rises, we see that religion shrinks.”

- This is extremely poor council; you should take everything the Bible says seriously. 2 Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” and Hebrews 4:12 states “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Furthermore, your statements regarding education, or the lack thereof, are completely inaccurate. The 66 books of the Bible were written by Kings, Prophets, Philosophers, Doctors and Scholars; some of the most intelligent and wise human beings on the face of the planet. Even the translation of the Bible into the English language was comprised of a team of academia’s best. 54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time.

First, each translator made his own translation of the book, which was reviewed by each other member of the group. Then the whole group reviewed the book. When they all agreed on the translation, they sent it to the other five groups for evaluation. Those groups then returned it to the original committee, marking anything they disagreed with. The original group would then go over the book again.
When all six committees finished with the book, it was sent, with any differences that were left, to a special committee made up of one leader from each of the six groups. They solved any remaining problems, and the book was sent to the printers.

As an aside, they did not work in secret. At any time, the translators could ask an outside scholar for his understanding, and anyone could find out about the progress. The churches were kept informed at all times.

In all, every single verse of the Bible was carefully examined and decided upon a total of fourteen times, by as many as 50 or more people! This made it impossible for any one translator to impose his personal viewpoint on a passage. He had to have logical reasons for a translation that were good enough to persuade every other scholar before it could be written into the text. There was no “private interpretation” here! (2 Peter 1:20-21)
God superintended the translation, so that what we need to know from the Bible has been accurately translated for us. We do have translated in English for the world, God's perfectly preserved words.

God bless you as you read and believe them.

-NetPro


RE: Impending Rapture?
By vortmax on 9/4/2007 12:47:13 PM , Rating: 2
I nominate the above post for post of the year. Well said NetPro.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By Buzzard Bait on 9/4/2007 11:40:35 PM , Rating: 2
I second your nomination vortmax.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By Proteusza on 9/5/2007 4:26:51 AM , Rating: 2
[quote]Furthermore, your statements regarding education, or the lack thereof, are completely inaccurate. The 66 books of the Bible were written by Kings, Prophets, Philosophers, Doctors and Scholars; some of the most intelligent and wise human beings on the face of the planet. Even the translation of the Bible into the English language was comprised of a team of academia’s best. 54 scholars were appointed in 1604, and a few overseers were also present, who went from group to group. In time through death the number of translators diminished to 47. They were given three locations to work: Oxford, Cambridge and Westminster. And two groups worked at each location, making a total of six groups. The Bible was also divided up into six sections. Each group took one section, working on one book at a time.[/quote]

Each and every one of those philosophers, doctors and lawyers also believed that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Just because they were clever for their time, does not mean they word should be taken as the truth now.

In any case, I dont see how you can disagree with Master Kenobi's post. Anyone who believes in the Bible says its a matter of faith. Is that correct?

Because faith is subject to the individual and his/her beliefs, saying that Master Kenobi's beliefs regarding the Bible (however scientific they may be) are false is simply incorrect. They are only incorrect to you.

To the other Atheists, and other like minded individuals, the Bible is as portrayed by Master Kenobi, and to be honest, we get tired of being attacked by Christians like yourself for not believing.

This isnt a personal attack NetPro, I respect your views and the way you describe them, but I dont believe you can say that Master Kenobi is wrong.

Back on topic, will be interesting to see what becomes of this.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By NetPro on 9/5/2007 10:01:48 AM , Rating: 2
Responding in like manner as I did in the previous post.
.

"Each and every one of those philosophers, doctors and lawyers also believed that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around the Earth."

- That is a ridiculous generalization and completely untrue; none of them did, as evidenced by Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
.

"Just because they were clever for their time, does not mean they word should be taken as the truth now."

- "Clever" is hardly the word I would use, nor is it remotely accurate in describing the intelligence and wisdom of the ancient world (remember the Pyramids?).
-
- "And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore. And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt. For he was wiser than all men;" I Kings 4:29-31a
-
- "And there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the earth, which had heard of his wisdom." I Kings 4:34
-

Rest assured the world tested Solomon’s wisdom then as the world tests the wisdom of the Bible now…

-
- "And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, she came to prove Solomon with hard questions at Jerusalem, with a very great company, and camels that bare spices, and gold in abundance, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart. And Solomon told her all her questions: and there was nothing hid from Solomon which he told her not. And when the queen of Sheba had seen the wisdom of Solomon, and the house that he had built," 2 Chronicles 9:1-3
-
- "And she said to the king, It was a true report which I heard in mine own land of thine acts, and of thy wisdom: Howbeit I believed not their words, until I came, and mine eyes had seen it: and, behold, the one half of the greatness of thy wisdom was not told me: for thou exceedest the fame that I heard." 2 Chronicles 5-6
-
- "And king Solomon passed all the kings of the earth in riches and wisdom. And all the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom, that God had put in his heart." 2 Chronicles 22-23
.

"In any case, I dont see how you can disagree with Master Kenobi's post. Anyone who believes in the Bible says its a matter of faith. Is that correct?"

- Not at all, any student of the Word learns the Bible is first and foremost about a King and His Kingdom, a book of history without equal in its accuracy and historicity. Faith comes into play regarding Jesus (is he indeed who he claimed to be?). With that said, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is not a blind, ignorant belief, but rather an intelligent faith. Our hearts and minds were created to work in harmony together; never has an individual been called upon in the Scriptures to commit intellectual suicide in trusting Jesus as Savior and Lord.
.

"Because faith is subject to the individual and his/her beliefs, saying that Master Kenobi's beliefs regarding the Bible (however scientific they may be) are false is simply incorrect. They are only incorrect to you."

- Therein lies the problem with Master Kenobi’s post, there was no scientific support to his position whatsoever, it was speculative and conjecture at their best. Furthermore, simply believing something does not make it true or truth (this is the very meaning of delusion).

- The scientific method, however it is defined, is related to measurement of phenomena and experimentation or repeated observation. Now if the scientific method was the only method of proving something, you could not prove you had breakfast this morning. It is impossible to recreate that event in a controlled situation. The method used is that of “legal-historical” proof, which is based on demonstrating something is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, a verdict is reached on the basis of the weight of the evidence.
.

"To the other Atheists, and other like minded individuals, the Bible is as portrayed by Master Kenobi, and to be honest, we get tired of being attacked by Christians like yourself for not believing."

- “Tired of being attacked”? I would hardly describe my response to his post as an attack; as a matter of fact, it was not combative in any way, shape, or form.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By MoonRocket on 9/6/2007 10:30:42 AM , Rating: 2
There were no attacks at all in NetPro's posts.

Claiming so is a pretty weak response to a fine example of Christian Apologetics.

Well done NetPro, I enjoyed your posts immensely.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By SlyNine on 9/5/2007 5:04:00 AM , Rating: 2
But still I think it would be foolish to accept a forced mark. I'm not saying that the bible is always right and never misinterpreted or even that I really belive in it. But when things start happening that tend to give it validity we better choose wisely. Their are more things in the universe then we can hope to understand and maybe their is a god and this is his way of giving us a warning. Just MAYBE , but not necessarily.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By Chris Peredun on 9/4/2007 8:46:28 AM , Rating: 2
Rapture, eh? I've got Electro Bolt 3 and a shotgun full of Exploding Buck with boosted ROF.

Bring on the Big Daddies.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By rdeegvainl on 9/4/2007 9:01:13 AM , Rating: 2
also apparently the popes hat when spelled out and converted to roman numerals makes 666

Coincidence or not? I don't really know but I thought it was interesting nevertheless.

seriously i don't care whether or not either one is true as compared to prophesy. It would not matter to me anyways.


RE: Impending Rapture?
By codeThug on 9/4/2007 1:50:01 PM , Rating: 2
Some nut case on a United Airlines flight tried to convince me that "Ronald Wilson Reagan" was the anti-Christ due to the six letters in each word of his name.

Society is replete with mark of the beast examples:

http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html



RFID
By Vokus on 9/4/2007 2:37:26 AM , Rating: 2
Here is what I think about RFID chips.

If in the future every child/person is marked with an ID tag, then there will be data bases in schools and work places, banks, whatever where all the data about you is stored.
If that will be true, what would stop pedophiles and sex offenders ( aka lonely tech savvy computer geeks) from hacking in to school computer systems and getting all the info on every kid in the school, then picking to their best interest and monitoring that person.

Is it to farfetched to say that they could come up with some type of long range RFID device that could monitor a person from like a mile away?

Is it also to farfetched to say that they can design a device that could fry the chip once they kid nap their target?

If you think about this you will realize that when you have an RFID chip on you, you can be monitored. Can someone explain to me how this would make a child/anyone safer?

------------------------------------------------- --------
Also to the guy that posted about:

From the Bible: (Revelation 13:16-17)

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name."

When you read this, some key words come up..
1. Forced
2. Everyone

Is it too farfetched to say they would be able to monitor us using something like cell phone towers and locate us at any time…

Also if there is going to be no paper currency they will know every transaction and you have and know everything you bought and did…

It’s a bit scary just thinking about it…

And what if some government decides to click the delete button on you, and you stop existing... Would it be possible for the gov to use this against a person to convince him/her to do something they would not want to do?

------------------------------------------------- --------

Whats most scary is that the people them selfs will vote for the chip because they will be shown the illusion of safety...




RE: RFID
By vhx on 9/4/2007 2:46:19 AM , Rating: 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pVEPlxwlzCE

I think this is what you are referring to.


RE: RFID
By Vokus on 9/4/2007 2:52:47 AM , Rating: 2
I never saw that clip but god damn, this should be the national news.


RE: RFID
By Rugar on 9/4/2007 5:34:50 AM , Rating: 2
My tin foil hat foils the damn Venusians and their eroti-ray, I'm sure that it'll stop the Rockefeller's insidious plans as well.


RE: RFID
By AntiM on 9/4/2007 10:21:54 AM , Rating: 2
I'm reminded of the retinal scanners in the movie "Minority Report", where a person in an urban, public area could have their movements instantly tracked as they traveled throughout the city.

If things keep evolving the way they are, I have no doubt that sometime in the future, all privacy will be lost to the government and marketers.


Dumbest idea ever!
By daniyarm on 9/3/2007 10:51:56 PM , Rating: 5
Just wait until some company gets sued for requiring their employers to do this. It has got to be the dumbest idea an employer could come up with. I'd quit the second they would ask me to do this. No computer chip is EVER going under my skin.




RE: Dumbest idea ever!
By rdeegvainl on 9/4/2007 8:48:06 AM , Rating: 3
except when you trip and land on a sliver sized computer of the future.


Revelations...
By Proteusza on 9/4/2007 8:32:09 AM , Rating: 2
Now, I'm not a Bible buff by any means, but what does Revelations say about all people being forced to wear the mark of the beast?




RE: Revelations...
By edge929 on 9/4/2007 10:00:51 AM , Rating: 2
The short of it is that according to the Revelations verse, every person will be required to show the "mark of the beast" before they can purchase anything, mainly food and water. This mark is suppose to be like a tattoo or something in the form of "666" on your hand or forehead/temple.

I dated a pastor's daughter for 4 years and had some one-on-one's with her dad. This is more or less how HE interpreted it.

The concept is nothing new and history has already seen various half-attempts at this. Pretty much any organization/club/cult/government that made you sport a sign of induction.


RE: Revelations...
By Etsp on 9/4/2007 10:55:03 AM , Rating: 2
My limited understanding of the mark of the beast is that, there isn't a question of whether or not it is the mark or it isn't. It's something that you have to knowingly accept and fully understand it's meaning, you cannot be tricked into unknowingly bearing the mark of the beast. In other words, the question if whether it is or isn't the mark disqualifies it from being the mark.

That's my limited understanding, and I may even be completely wrong, but that's how I heard it's supposed to be.


thank gods...
By n7 on 9/4/2007 3:02:30 AM , Rating: 3
Far too similar too the biblical prophesy for my liking.

I'm not even actively religious, but the Bible has had far too many prophesies come true.

They'll have to kill me before i'm getting a chip embedded in me.

Very scarey imo...the potential for abuse of this is way too scarey.




RE: thank gods...
By ceefka on 9/4/2007 7:03:35 AM , Rating: 2
It's not for you, it's for regular shoplifters ;-)


I'm amazed
By nayy on 9/4/2007 10:20:29 AM , Rating: 2
I have heard about this comparison to the biblical passages before, they really scared my mother, but I would have never thought they would same reaction at a tech forum. Any catholic priest can tell you that those passages are full of symbolism and that are not to be taken literally.

And for those how are afraid of the misuse of this technology, let me tell you something every single piece of technology has the potential to be abused, You want a scary thought imagine when dna mapping technologies get really cheap, anyone can grab some of your hair (gattaca style) and learn anything there is to know about you, abilities, diseases, allergies anything. And if you happen to have a risky genetic trait, let’s say tendencies to violent behavior, the government will simply flag you and monitor you for the rest of your life. I’m not saying this will happen, but I would believe that paranoiac people have better things to worry about than if their employer wants to track them.

Would I like to have a chip implanted, heck no, but I would certainly do it if the well being of my family depended on it.




RE: I'm amazed
By vortmax on 9/4/2007 1:08:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any catholic priest can tell you that those passages are full of symbolism and that are not to be taken literally.


There's the problem. Any Catholic priest (along with anyone else) will tell you lots of things about the Bible that aren't necessarrily true.

I suggest to read it for yourself and let the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to you.


Happy to see this
By themadmilkman on 9/3/2007 11:41:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The LA Times reports that the California State Senate has passed a bill that goes one step farther, by banning employers from requiring employees to receive implants. Nine senators voted against the bill, including Bob Margett (R-Arcadia), who is quoted by the Times as saying it was premature to regulate technology that has not yet proved to be a problem.


Call me crazy, but this is one of the few times I've been happy to see a proactive government instead of a reactive one.




No grey area
By mindless1 on 9/4/2007 10:28:29 AM , Rating: 2
There's no grey area here, I advocate shooting anyone who even has the slightest hint of advocating manditory implants, let alone mandating it.

Your own body is not subject to invasion by your employer. If they can't grasp that, they need a strong reminder. Then a stronger reminder, and so on, until they GET it.




Invasion of the RFID Snatchers
By teckytech9 on 9/4/2007 12:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
I give California some kudos for leading the way to stop this RFID implant issue.
I once saw Arnold in a Hollywood movie, "Total Recall," where he pries the bug out
once and for good.

Indeed, forcing mandatory RFID implants on anyone human, other than a robot,
would be inhumane treatment in the first degree. The main issue is that
Big Brother seems to need all the tools in its arsenal to fill electronic databases on every member it deems necessary.

Truth is, the real threat to privacy will be an all seeing eye in the sky, much like imbedding everything with biometrics/cameras that grow and spawn everywhere to feed, and collect this data everywhere.

What is a cell phone other than an external device, which could be used to
track its location and its owner? Security cams, Web cams, CCTV, Traffic cams,
etc, are just the beginning. George Orwell was right.

I once read a study where an RFID chip was placed on employees’ ID badges for
about 50+ employees. In about a few weeks, nobody wore them all the time, and resorted
to placing the badges inside their workstations. It's just human nature since they were
probably too embarrassed to have their time spent logged in some database when they
needed to use the restroom (i.e. WC, Toilet, Commode...) Now where will the next cameras
be installed?




trading liberty for safety
By cozappz on 9/4/2007 2:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
Ben Franklin from 1755.

quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Communism, Maoism, Fascism, do not forget these.
What could these regimes do if they would have RFID? Be more successful in killing, torturing,a.s.o people like you and me!!!

This will never happen to me? I pray to God for this. I was 12 when Ceausescu died in 1989.

It will never happen to you? Do you wanna bet on your life?




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