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Vineet Nayar, CEO of HCL Technologies, a major Indian partner of Microsoft, has delivered controversial remarks, labelling American tech graduates as "unemployable", Mr. Vinyar says the American graduates lack the discipline and effort to design quality products and are too expensive to train, and went on to suggest that technology graduates from India, China, and Brazil are better prepared for the market.  (Source: WSJ)
The CEO of a major Indian corporation sounds off on what he sees as educational inadequacies

HCL Technologies is one of India's most powerful and respected tech firms.  The company scored a massive $170M USD outsourcing contract from Microsoft last year.  Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer lavished them with praise, stating, "That extra mile walk by the team (at HCL) has increased our mutual trust and has taken our relationship to newer heights. "

Now HCL's CEO Vineet Nayar has gone on record with some controversial remarks about the quality of American technology college graduates.  Tired of hearing stereotypes about Indian tech grads, Mr. Nayar, speaking before an audience of business partners in New York City, blasted American tech grads as "unemployable". 

He elaborated that he views American tech grads as inferior to those from India, China, and Brazil as the Americans only want to "get rich" and dream up "the next big thing".  He says students from countries like India, China, and Brazil are more willing to put the effort into "boring" details of tech process and methodology, such as ITIL, Six Sigma, etc.

Mr. Nayar also complains about the cost of training Americans.  He says that most Americans are simply "too expensive" to train.  He compares this to Indians, which he says are highly trained, thanks to exhaustive vocational training programs which are used to supplement traditional college education.

Many have taken offense at Mr. Nayar's rhetoric.  Information Week's Robert Preston comments, "Imagine if the CEO of a U.S.-based tech company marched into Mumbai seeking a bigger share of the country's multibillion-dollar market and declared the locals to be unemployable and untrainable. A culture of innovation isn't inconsistent with one that values attention to detail."

Ultimately, the ill-considered speech may be more the result of reverse-stereotyping, and less out of true malice.  Nonetheless, it's indicative of the tensions between U.S. and India over outsourcing and prejudices that still unfortunately exist in the international tech community.


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Outsourcing at its best.
By Radnor on 6/22/2009 8:23:46 AM , Rating: 5
I just hope this outsourcing trends just ends fast, it is just depressing.

Migrating jobs to lower wages (like India), does give you a product, but a lower quality one.

Seen it several times, this one should not be an exception.




RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By OrSin on 6/22/2009 8:31:55 AM , Rating: 4
America companies will stop outsource when the dollar really tanks to its true levels. The biggest problem is america's (and I'm one) thing they deserve a raise every year for doing the same job. Over the course of the last few decades we are just over paid (compared to the rest of the world). I think Unions are the biggest blame right now. The Auto unions bankrupt the auto companies and now has massive stock in them as a result. Unions were needed at one time but now they are just a drain on companies for no good reason.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By HVAC on 6/22/2009 8:45:51 AM , Rating: 4
Dragging American wages down to foreign levels will succeed in demoralizing the American work force. It is best to put pressure on the world to bring them to parity by raising their levels.

Are you listening, China?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 9:23:54 AM , Rating: 5
A global economy will tend to equalize standards of living between countries. Hence 3rd world countries become like 2nd world countries. And 1st world countries become like 2nd world countries. Its a bad deal for the 1st world countries. Our leaders knew that. But all they cared about was that it was good for businesses. Yay for lobbying!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By JS on 6/22/2009 10:00:34 AM , Rating: 5
Many, many more will benefit from the equalizing of standard of living than will lose out. So you could argue that it is a very good thing for humanity as a whole.

Even if some hard working people who had planned on buying a new car or a new plasma TV will have to put those plans on hold, so that some other hard working people might buy their first car or tv ever.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By 91TTZ on 6/22/2009 10:59:44 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Many, many more will benefit from the equalizing of standard of living than will lose out. So you could argue that it is a very good thing for humanity as a whole.


I'm not that politically correct and I don't believe in pie in the sky dreams.

The world is a competitive place and people fight over resources. We should do our best to defeat the competition. They're trying their hardest to bring us down, yet when we try to bring them down they cry about inequality. We need more people like Patton who can bulldoze the enemy and less ultra-PC pansies.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 11:39:32 AM , Rating: 4
I agree. I'm going to go out on a limb here as well.

In my profession, I have made it a rule (as in set in stone) to never do business with someone from India - be it through birth or descent via genetics. Don't get me wrong, I think Indians are wonderful people with a rich culture and exceptional values (I have a few as neighbors and they are the nicest people). I love their food and bring all my friends and relatives to their restaurants even, going so far to take pleasure out of introducing new acquaintances to their food.

I draw the line there, however, leaving all relationships with Indians are purely pleasurable ones. I will not do business with them. Why? I can't quite touch on it but will try to elaborate a little.

Anyone whom has done business with a New Yorker will understand they can be pushy, talk fast, full of attitude and also very keen to get a "deal." The process is typically entertaining and usually both parties walk away happy with a "deal" being made and business prospers. Russians are similar - they will push hard, try to squeeze a penny, but ultimately a deal will be made and business will occur. I find it quite humorous and amusing to do business with Russians as a matter of fact, it is very enjoyable however hard they might be on me in getting what they want.

Indians though, are different. They will push, they will dig, they will ask for a deal. Then they will ask for your arm, then your leg, then your soul. They will try and take everything and push you for all it is worth. Finally, after spending hours squeezing you, they will just pick everything up and walk away. Nothing occurs, ever - unless you are Indian yourself (and I've never witnessed it so I am assuming).

In fact, sometimes they will not even push at all, but rather they will contact you and spin your wheels trying to gather information. From my standpoint, it always appears as they are using you for information or their needs whenever it is "convenient" for them. Whatever the case, it always ends with me or my business companions as feeling "used" and "abused" for their own gain, whether it is financial or information (they love to waste your time for information) and then they walk off, never to actually spend a dime or do any business.

I was hesitant for years to form any sort of accusation or proclamation as deliberated above, but I fear after years of experience these sadly are my held beliefs and now have been sown into law. I won't - will not, do business with them. It has been a one-hundred percent waste of time every time whenever they have been a prospective business associate. Nothing has ever come of it and I am convinced nothing ever will. I know many others who feel the same way.

A second observation I have made is that Indians are incapable of running a business and have it last for any length of time in the Western World. It just is not possible. I watch the Stock Market all day long (and trade on it) and over the years, year after year actually, I have watched company after company that is headed up and run by an Indian fail or fade into the past. This isn't just a random occurence or a statistical variance, but rather a statistical likelihood approaching the probability of 100%. I have seen companies that are going strong, prospering and bringing their employees continued financial gain, only to install an Indian as their CEO which inevitably causes things to spiral downward into an abyss. One need only look as far as Citigroup and Mr. Vikram Pandit (sp? in question) to see my point. Though Citigroup was lame prior to his appointment, his prescription for their illness if studied at all was quite clearly the wrong therapy and quite ineffective at that. In my opinion it was blunder after blunder. It is not just C though, but it is many companies I have seen over the year. If I see a stock and notice the CEO is Indian, I skip the stock and move onto the next, never to invest a dime in it.

So, it is with great amusement that I log onto DT today and see this Indian executive ranting that Americans are useless. Perhaps he should take a look in a mirror and ask himself - "Am I ready to do business with an American today?" Experience has shown me that the answer to his personal question would be "No, never."

Perhaps it is a cultural difference, perhaps it is something as simple as a taboo handshake or a friendly bow with those of Asian descent; whatever the cause is, I do not know a fellow American yet who can make sense of it (that I have met) that can truly do business with them and make some real money at it.

So, point and laugh at us Mr. Indian CEO. I will never do business with you, but I will continue to be your and your countries citizens friend as I like you all as people but not as businessmen.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By otispunkmeyer on 6/22/2009 11:57:18 AM , Rating: 3
they can be hard people to deal with, i know what your saying

i also really hate it when companies outsource tech support to the indians. the guys on the end of the phone in india might well be amazingly clever but i'll never know because i cant understand a word of their engrish coming down the phone. still the last american i spoke to over the phone sounded like he was on something... took him ages to respond to questions and talked really slowly...and this guy was trying to sell me turbines!

not all indian business people are failures though... look at Vijay mallya... owns the kingfisher airline and his own F1 team.

Mr Mittal owns one of the biggest steel companies in the world and is near the top of the UK's rich list.

my last landlord was indian and he owns over 100 houses in the loughborough area, has his own mobile phone company, estate agents and easily has a couple of mil in the bank. He used to be richer till he had to pay money back that him and his associates had fraudulently aquired, but he still has his black ferrari 360 spider among other flash cars.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 12:28:21 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I agree. I'm going to go out on a limb here as well.
Wow, nice stereotype and prejudice. I mean, all Indian people are the same after all, just like all Americans are the same. What is wrong with you?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 12:32:04 PM , Rating: 5
It is not a stereotype nor a prejudice - it is a business decision. If you spent 13 years trying to do business with Indians have have 100% of the prospective relationships fail or yield 0 fruit, would you continue trying to do business with them or would you write it off?

A prudent businessman would write it off and establish a policy to do business with others as that one particular sector yields no fruit. It is simple, really. What is hard to understand about that? I'd say as a business, we gave it a good shot.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 12:56:41 PM , Rating: 5
Do you think you're the first to justify predudice as a business decision? I'm sure lots of business owners that discrimintated against "colored people" prior to the civil rights movement also thought it was a prudent business decision.

Here's a thought - approach each person as an individual and judge their business value to you as an individual instead of being lazy and ignorant and completely writing off an entire nationality of people.

You also need to be aware that your prejudice also colors your opinion - usually subconsciously - of others. So for you, any time you meet an Indian, you will automatically think them not worthy of you, regardless of what they are really like. Therefore your bias blinds you to certain opportunities.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 1:15:44 PM , Rating: 5
Thirteen years of effort and trying do not equal laziness. I'd say effort was given and adequate time has passed to form a large enough sample group to process and quantify the data.

Also, before you say I am prejudiced, please refer to my post where I mention I like them as people and enjoy them on a social level - I just will not do business with them.

Have you ever had a friend whom you loved to hang out with, would tell all your innermost feelings to, be there to help them whenever they needed it - but - hate to admit that if it came down to money or business you wouldn't get involved with that with them due to past experiences or gut instinct? Same thing.

I can guarantee you 5 years ago I had no such bias. This is a recent formulation. Or you can continue to call me lazy - and I would love to watch as you, a "businessman" fails in your business after spending many more useless years pissing your money down a segment of your operations which are 100% cost and 0% profit.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 2:48:34 PM , Rating: 2
I don't really care whether they do or not. Since when do I have to be politically correct and sensitive to the masses when it comes to a personal business decision? Maybe in your PC world - not mine.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 3:16:47 PM , Rating: 5
The last time I checked, I do not have to business with _anyone_ . Whom I take on as clients of my own is my own right and choosing, much like those who seek my advice and talent can decide whether they want my services or not.

Thirteen years of Indians wasting my time and not bothering to spend one cent on the advice I give them is enough for me. I enjoy my American, British, German, Russian, Asian, Polynesian and Persian clients just fine thank you. I'd say I am pretty diversified. If I can't succeed with Indians, big deal. There are plenty of others out there in the world that are better prospective clients.

This is my right as a private citizen. That is the beauty of living in a FREE COUNTRY. I, along with many other citizens, would like to keep it that way.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 3:36:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Try not to let the bitterness consume your life. :o)


I'm having a hard enough time fighting the nauseating political correctness movement that I haven't been able to focus on that as of late. ;)


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By 91TTZ on 6/22/2009 3:45:17 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
. Do yourself and favor and re-calibrate your moral compass.


Stop trying to push your ideals on him. Not everyone wants to hop on the PC bandwagon. Some of us are realists whose real-life experiences disagree with the PC fairy tale.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By DigitalFreak on 6/22/2009 4:06:51 PM , Rating: 2
+10000


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By itzmec on 6/22/2009 4:16:04 PM , Rating: 2
haha, im reading this comment from my pc.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By BigPeen on 6/22/2009 5:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Having bias against people based on who they are


So we're supposed to judge people based on who they AREN'T?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By xxeonn on 6/23/2009 10:29:11 PM , Rating: 2
Hey Tomz you are not alone, I agree with you aswell. I think it is morally wrong to discriminate against a whole race or nationality based on the few people you know. If you really think about it there are bad and good people in any race or nationality, so you cant make such a broad statement about the entire race based on the few you have met.

Here in Jamaica Indians actually do have sucessful businesses and get along with the poeple well, so I was suprised when he said that they are bad business partners. I believe that if he were to tell his neihbours how he actually feels about there country they would feel offended. You cant tell someone that you like them as a people but on the other hate them as business men, thats fooling yourself man.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 3:39:23 PM , Rating: 2
It sure is a stereotype, prejudice, and business decision. You lumped all Indians in one basket! The only question really is whether its valid or not. I don't know personally...


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By BZDTemp on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 6:30:45 PM , Rating: 2
So I'm prejudiced because I am irritated about 100% of Indians I have had prospective meetings with turning me down, wasting my time or just using me for information for the last 13 years? I am supposed to just say - golly gee, those meetings did not go well, I might as well prospect nothing but Indians now because they will generate business with me someday? Never mind the fact I have to pay bills and overhead to stay in business during this whole time.

Is that how you run a business? They chose to not do business with ME for the last 13 years. I met with them, I talked with them, I gave them hours and hours of my time and effort and nothing ever produced fruit because of it.

So, I'm supposed to be a politically correct goody two shoes yes man and say - gee Wally, that's just not swell and I should continue to give up my time for them rather than spend it on another prospective market segment? That sounds like Socialism to me. I'm not in business to give free stuff away from others. I'm in it to make money for myself. I have not had _any_ of these problems with Whites, Blacks, Germans, Irish, British, Polynesian, Chinese, Japanese and Persian heritage. Zero problems if you want to make me pick races/nationality.

So after 13 years of being used and abused by them, I'm supposed to take it? Get real man. A smart business person would just give up on the bad market and move on. That is exactly what I've done.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By BZDTemp on 6/23/2009 7:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
LOL - No one here is telling you how to run your business.

However when you go on about how Indian people are and on the same time claim not to be prejudiced it is at best funny and at worst you not seeing you have a problem. I think you need to look up the word in a dictionary.

Clearly this places does not require people to be PC but you seems to judge something like 1/5 of the worlds population on you experience with just those you have meet and the restaurants you have visited.

In defending your views you used people from N.Y. as an example. Looking away from that being another example of prejudiced thinking I wonder how it is you can say people from one part of the US being different than the rest. And on the same time view all people from a nation with a population almost 3x the US of all being the same?
Could it be you know more people from the US so you are less inclined to view them all as the same. Surely you can apply some logic and try to do the same about India.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By 91TTZ on 6/22/2009 6:54:14 PM , Rating: 2
wow. how clever. a Hitler reference.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Nik00117 on 6/22/2009 12:41:26 PM , Rating: 3
I agree, with you entirely.

I've never done business, but I agree that with experience you can sterotype individuals. And be 90% right. And quite frankly in business I'd rather be 90% right and 10% wrong then 10% right and 90% wrong.

Example my company sells a lot to Americans overseas. We have al ot of locations in Germany. However we do not hire Germans as a rule of thumb for oru sales force.

Why? They make poor sales people.

Did we come to this conclusion because of 1 or 2 failed attempts? No, however about the fact in 50 years we've never had a successful German sells person. As in a person who rose though the ransk and shined, even if just for a brief time.

We've had succesful Iraqis, Turks, Pakistans, Polish, french, spainish, italian, americans and a lot of brits (we hire a lot of brits)

We've only hired maybe 5-6 Iraqis, 3-4 turks, a few pakis, a few pols, and couple french, spanish, italian, and maybe 10% of our work force is american. However we've hired more germans then americans and no german has ever done well in our company. On the sales side that is, we've had them excell at the processing though!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By kibagami on 6/23/2009 3:49:21 AM , Rating: 5
Rules of thumb so far:

- MrBlastman : Never do business with indians
- Nik00117 : Never hire a german for a sales position
- Vineet Nayar : Never invest in american tech grads

nothing personal, "just business".


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By goddamnit on 6/23/2009 10:26:44 AM , Rating: 2
So Germans are not good at selling things? Good thing Germany is the world's leading exporter of merchandise. With only 80 million people living there. Somehow they manage to sell pretty many things to other countries, don't they?

Besides, I am not of German descent.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By rudy on 6/22/2009 1:32:22 PM , Rating: 3
What about Indra K. Nooyi at Pepsi?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Bubbacub on 6/22/2009 4:51:26 PM , Rating: 5
india is big - there are 1.1 billion people there comprised of hundreds of wildly different cultures. to write off that many different cultures and people because a few business deals didn't work out the way you wanted is quite frankly very narrow minded.

i was interested in your point about..

"never do business with someone from India - be it through birth or descent via genetics"

what about people who are half indian/halfwhite - are they half as trustworthy as a WASP. what about people who are a quarter indian - still untrustworthy. does an indian family which has lived in the states for 3 generations still produce economically untrustworthy progeny?

think about what you have said - in substance it is not too dissimilar to a certain young austrian's viewpoint on some minorities 90 years ago.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MrBlastman on 6/22/2009 5:12:29 PM , Rating: 1
Have you ever had to produce what you earn - i.e. 100% of your pay comes from 100% of your efforts and not a salary? Another word for it that more commonly is understood is 100% Commission.

If you did, you'd understand the merits of writing off bad market segments and looking for good ones - which produce income. This is all I have done. Thirteen years is enough time to decide whether a market is worthwhile or not when there are plenty of other markets out there.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 6:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
I produce 100% of what I earn...without discrimination.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By 91TTZ on 6/22/2009 7:16:01 PM , Rating: 2
So far you've done a good job producing crappy posts that make you look a bit limp-wristed.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Xenoterranos on 6/26/2009 4:32:09 PM , Rating: 2
Has it ever occurred to you that there might be something about the business you do that 100% of Indians hold in a strong negative light? I mean, maybe it's something completely innocent, like trying to sell non-kosher food to Hasidic Jews, you never know.

Who knows, maybe they don't like committing to business relationships with you because you haven't had enough business relationships with Indians! There's 1 billion Indians in the world, I'd say that's a pretty good market to try and break into.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By trojan694u2 on 6/22/2009 6:26:27 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree a bit here - even though i don't consider myself racist.
I am an electrical engineer. When I went to uni 15years ago, all the Indians did was copy the assignments of the smart people - the innovators, yet somehow managed to get better marks. None of them have made good engineers since. Most are bureaucratic nightmares more interested in paperwork and quality control - rather than getting the product right. Even today doing my masters degree, I come across the same thing. I do my assignment, learn the material, then have indians harassing me to borrow it to copy. Then amazingly I get marks less than all the Indians. So what I have found and made a rule on is that Indians are great networkers but it only goes one way - their way! They copy well, they quality control well. They don't innovate well! They don't share backwards. So from now on, I will not share with Indians because they never offer it back.

So Mr Indian CEO - when was the last great innovation that didn't come out of an American or western university. When was the last "google" or "Intel" or "microsoft" to come out of India.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By dark matter on 6/23/2009 6:25:35 AM , Rating: 2
You do know that you're not allowed to have your own opinion based on you're real life experiences if it doesn't fit the PC view. If you do insist on having your own opinion, despite it being based on actual events that have happened to you, then you are labelled as racist or intolerant.

I don't like Chinese food, tried it, didn't like it one bit. I would never, ever visit a Chinese restaurant or buy Chinese food. My own personal experience. Guess that makes me a racist.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By FITCamaro on 6/23/2009 6:36:29 AM , Rating: 2
All I know is that the majority of emails I get asking for help from other people in the industry which use the tool that I do, and the majority of the repeated questions I see on the discussion forums on the product, come from people in India.

Like you I do not dislike the Indian people. But in my experience they are either hit or miss. In college there was a group of Indian kids who I refused to work with. All they did was cheat and plagiarize. My boss on campus would typically help students with their thesis. All the offers of people paying her $10-50,000 to do it all for them came from Indian students. But I also had one friend who was Indian and was very bright as well as a co-worker at my first job who was here on a visa and a brilliant guy.

I agree with your statement that many Indians seem to want to milk you for all you're worth. If US graduates are so bad, why do all the rich Indians send their children to the US to get degrees?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By keshavprabhu on 6/23/2009 8:41:41 PM , Rating: 2
All of this is BS - At hindsight what is going on at citi or what has been done at citi can be debated about - However what is important to note is that Citi put itself into this position under an "American" CEO, and Pandit is doing all he can to bring it out. Look at Pepsi, Adobe - Do you think they are failures? Who runs them?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By luhar on 6/24/2009 11:54:51 AM , Rating: 2
The only issue I have with what you're saying is when you state:

quote:
never do business with someone from India - be it through birth or descent via genetics


What you're doing here is stating that Indian's are genetically pre-disposed to be difficult buisness people to work with?

While you can make all the claims you want on the cultural aspects of Indian business folks, it's hard to take you seriously when you lump genetics into it.

Another aside... India is very diverse culturally from area to area... "typical" Indian businesses come out of particular areas, so like you mention "New Yorkers", maybe you should find out where your Indian cohorts were from and understand that particular culture?

Yes, I'm a "genetic" Indian... though born & raised here in the US... not to mention all of my career has been focused on supporting the US government.

Maybe consider whether you're taking the whole genetic stereotype a bit too far?

Rahul


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Phlargo on 6/22/2009 12:11:06 PM , Rating: 5
Thanks for being one of the only people who don't sound like bigots in this discussion.

Like it or not, the halo effect which America has enjoyed for the last 200 years can't last forever - our largess and superior standard of living developed on an unsustainable model of exploiting labor and resources internationally.

We then helped develop technologies which empower the individual - like the internet - and complain that now the individual and the others are expecting something more?

As far as I'm concerned: if our business models are truly outdated, the rise of the rest is the best possible thing for competition. If we are uncompetitive, we should fail - it's what's best for us and what is best for business.

Ideally, we employ our 'superior educational resources' to recognize impending failures and find ways to adapt and change to new models which acknowledge global changes and are more economically stable. There's no reason we should deny ourselves our existing advantage of resources and past success. We have again become a competitor and we need all the help we can find. Our status quo is as good as any a boosting place for building a stronger business view and developing public infrastructure to foster a healthier economy of the future.

Everyone wants to think that economic growth is about the individual. Truthfully, we ain't all that important as what's going on with our average neighbor in the grand scheme. This change is coming with the strength of much of the developing world, whose numbers vastly eclipse ours (the 1st world service based nations who have been living so high on the hog).

I generally like to think of this as a relatively informed group, but I was astonished to read some of these comments here. Exceptional people have figured out that identifying ones own weaknesses provides an opportunity to overcome them: a critical look at oneself allows us to strategically analyze the world around and the react to changes coming rather than completely rebuild when an unsustainable model inevitably collapses.

Recognizing these changes will only help us to become more successful in the future, and on more equal ground - which I am all for.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Suntan on 6/24/2009 4:33:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Like it or not, the halo effect which America has enjoyed for the last 200 years can't last forever - our largess and superior standard of living developed on an unsustainable model of exploiting labor and resources internationally.


Actually, America rose to “superpower” status after rejecting slavery and during the period where the current world powers (France, England, etc.) where all at the height of their colonialism. Including the subjugation of India itself.

To say that America rose to power on the backs of other cultures is not quite true. It rose to power because a lot of the people from those other cultures saw opportunity in America and voluntarily decided to leave there and move here.

-Suntan


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MatthiasF on 6/22/2009 3:27:49 PM , Rating: 4
No, equalizing standard of living will not benefit humanity. While people might feel guilty that every human on the planet isn't enjoying air conditioning, having every human on the planet have access will create a huge demand for resources that are barely available as it is now.

The improvement in standard of living in third world countries came because of technologies and efficiencies designed in first world countries. This doesn't just include televisions or automobiles, but health care and social philosophies as well. The knowledge behind the advances are even shared in public journals, books and resources.

Meanwhile, every time a first world country has failed in history, it was proceeded by massive loss of life, culture and knowledge in the region surrounding it for not just decades afterward.

Seems the recent heavy combination of capitalistic greed and naive utopianism is set to do a great deal of damage to the world's current leading first world country and by proxy the rest of the world.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 3:40:35 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
No, equalizing standard of living will not benefit humanity. While people might feel guilty that every human on the planet isn't enjoying air conditioning, having every human on the planet have access will create a huge demand for resources that are barely available as it is now.
Yes, it's much better that people live in squalor, suffer daily, and millions die needlessly, so that we can preserve natural resources. Go green! Humans be damned!

And of course you typed that statement from the air-conditioned comfort of your own home. But natural resources spent on you are worth it, I'm sure.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By DigitalFreak on 6/22/2009 4:09:59 PM , Rating: 2
Please stop breathing. You're wasting air that those of us who are useful to society require.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 6:41:18 PM , Rating: 2
Do you know that preserving natural resources is similar to being a penny pinching manager? It will save work in the long run. Such a manager would be great to have in a capitalist, free market business!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By MatthiasF on 6/22/2009 10:44:09 PM , Rating: 2
The sarcasm of your first statement is lost on me. Not sure what you're trying to say, but the number of humans living in squalor is lower than most think. But squalor is subjective.

After living in a palace, being waited on by dozens of servants and feasting on fresh, artistic food, I'm sure the Queen of England would find living in the typical American household to be squalor.

According to World Bank estimates and benchmarks, 1.4 billion (and falling, from 1.9 in 1981) people are living in extreme poverty. This is around 20% of the human population.

By contrast, the USA has two benchmarks for poverty in our own country designed by the Census Bureaus. According to them, 11% or 22.5% live in poverty inside the US depending on how heavily you want to weight their cost of living.

Cost of living is everything. In some places, you don't even need to spend money to survive so how can their income be used to determine if they are in poverty?

Anyway, no, it was a beautiful day here so I had the windows open.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 3:36:20 PM , Rating: 2
I tend to agree, but I'd only want to "share the wealth" with countries that support nearly the same (or greater) freedoms as America does.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By jconan on 6/23/2009 1:40:40 AM , Rating: 2
that remark sounds very socialist and utopian like... whatever happened to good ol capitalism.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Solandri on 6/22/2009 10:37:05 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
A global economy will tend to equalize standards of living between countries. Hence 3rd world countries become like 2nd world countries. And 1st world countries become like 2nd world countries.

No it won't. A global economy just introduces efficiencies which are already present in 1st world countries into 3rd world countries, thus eventually making all countries 1st world. If an automated assembly line in the 1st world nation allows one person monitoring it to stamp out 100 motherboards a day, its introduction to the 3rd world nation does not decrease the productivity of the 1st world employee. He can still stamp out 100 motherboards a day.

Yes having a 3rd world supplier means more competition so the 1st world employee's wage will drop. But increased competition also means lower prices so the cost of goods will drop by the same amount. So you can't think of this in terms of wages or prices - that'd be comparing one relative value to another. You have to think of it in terms of an absolute value - worker productivity. And a global economy will increase everyone's productivity. The value of 1st world currencies like the dollar may fall relative to other currencies (mostly 3rd world), but its purchasing power would remain the same.

The only 1st world countries that will be hurting are those who became or are 1st world not through efficiency and economic strength, but by exploiting wage and price differentials between 1st and 3rd world nations. e.g. If Nike built its empire based on $0.50/day wages in SE Asia, its empire will not survive the prevailing wage there rising to $50/day. If however they built it based on $50/day factory workers in the U.S., then it doesn't really matter what happens to the wages in SE Asia. Its empire is still safe and sound.

Unfortunately, exploiting those differentials is the quickest way to spread productivity efficiency, so they're a necessary evil if we want to bring the 3rd world nations up to speed quickly. The real test is going to come with optional constraints on productivity, like environmental regulations. If China chooses not to protect the environment to the extent that the U.S. does, then it will be able to produce things cheaper even if the worker productivity of the two countries is the same. Then either the U.S. would have to give up some of its environmental regulations to compete, or the environmental degradation in China would become so unbearable they're forced to adopt regulations similar to what the U.S. has. Unfortunately the latter can take a very long time, especially in a nation where the population is not entirely free to exercise their will upon the government that creates those regulations.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TSS on 6/22/2009 9:29:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No it won't

eh, yes it will.

quote:
its introduction to the 3rd world nation does not decrease the productivity of the 1st world employee. He can still stamp out 100 motherboards a day.


that doesn't mean demand for motherboards have doubled. unless it has, every motherboard the 3rd world nation puts out more, is one the 1st world nation doesn't have to produce. thusly the 1st world nation makes less, earns less then it used to and starts declining to the 2nd world.

quote:
But increased competition also means lower prices so the cost of goods will drop by the same amount


only if consumption rate stays the same. more supply + same demand = lower price. more demand + more supply = same price. but that's only if there's plenty of base resources to go around.

motherboards = plastic = oil. twice the motherboard prodution = twice the oil consumption. unless oil doubles in supply, price of motherboards will go up instead of down with the price of the base resource, oil (and other stuff but lets keep it simple). unless consumption drops again, which'll only happen if 1 of the 2 countries becomes 3rd world again, or both become 2nd world.

wealth seems to only get transferred, not lost nor created.

quote:
If however they built it based on $50/day factory workers in the U.S., then it doesn't really matter what happens to the wages in SE Asia. Its empire is still safe and sound.


in either case demand is still the ruling factor. if demand drops so that it no longer is profitable to produce the goods in america but it still is in india, because of the wages, then the empire is much safer in india then in the USA.

quote:
If China chooses not to protect the environment to the extent that the U.S. does, then it will be able to produce things cheaper even if the worker productivity of the two countries is the same.


i think we'll run into physical restraints faster then optional ones. america currently consumes 25% of all fossil fuels produced on a yearly basis. china has 5 times the population of the USA. so if china starts consuming as much as america does.. well.. you get the idea.

though...

even if we've established that in such a situation, all countries would become "2nd world"... that doesn't awnser the question if it's actually bad for the world or not. only that it's bad for the 1st world.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By cerx on 6/22/2009 10:58:27 AM , Rating: 2
"2nd world" is the same as "1st world" except that 2nd is Communist.

Also, citizens of 1st world countries (like the US) have much greater opportunity for education, etc., than 3rd world countries. So in theory we should be getting more education and getting (or creating) better jobs for ourselves while we move the lower-class jobs overseas so we can buy our stuff cheaper. At least in theory.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 3:32:30 PM , Rating: 2
You are right. I used 1st/2nd/3rd world incorrectly. I meant it to be a division of average individual economic prosperity for countries.

It is an interesting counter-argument. I still think things will average out, but I can't form a cogent argument at the time.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/09, Rating: 0
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/09, Rating: 0
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/2009 12:54:26 PM , Rating: 1
I'm sure the UAW's numbers will be a little more accurate than the state's numbers: http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

"In 2006 a typical UAW-represented assembler at GM earned $27.81 per hour of straight-time labor. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker at GM earned $32.32 per hour of straight-time labor."

Using this calculator:
http://www.calcxml.com/do/pay04

"An hourly rate of $27.81 equates to a weekly pay of $1,112, monthly pay of $4,820, and an annual salary of $57,845."

and

"An hourly rate of $32.32 equates to a weekly pay of $1,293, monthly pay of $5,602, and an annual salary of $67,226."

That was in 2006.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/2009 1:27:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'm also sure the UAW's numbers will represent the highest-paid autoworkers and not accurately reflect state or national averages, right?


No, not right.

The UAW is the one that negotiates the contracts, they and the auto companies are the ones to know best workers wages... not the state which you referenced. From the UAW's website those numbers were of the 'typical' worker... not the 'lucky few.'

People talk crap about unionized workers because they generally do get paid too much. You can directly compare them to non-union workers.

Unions are, and always have been, a bad idea.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By JediJeb on 6/22/2009 3:21:56 PM , Rating: 2
Well unless they pay auto workers much better in Kentucky than in Michigan the 70k number isn't so far off. I have relatives working for Ford in Louisville Ky, and starting wages there are around $25/hour which when figured on 40 hours per week and 52 weeks a year comes to $52K per year. That is first 6 months starting salary, after 6 months you get a raise, then at a year and so on. Also that is straight time, and except for this past year, most would work 10 hour days, with that being 50 hours a week, of which 10 hours was time and a half. Which makes 10 hours at $37.5 per hour each week which is $19.5k per year, so that would be $71,500 per year right there at starting salary, and there was the opportunity to work weekends for even more. Heck I interviewed there for a job back in 1991 and the starting salary was $18/hour and I calculated then that I could make over $50k per year on that with the overtime. I should have taken that job because now I would be making more working at the assymbly plant than I am making working as a chemist!

The ones working for Toyota here make almost as much per hour, but have no union so they are not out the union dues, so their wages are very close to the same if not better.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 3:33:59 PM , Rating: 1
Sure, I could see someone working overtime year round and maybe earning $70K, but I wouldn't say that's the norm, and it doesn't lend any further credence to the "dumb/lazy autoworker making $70K" cliche.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Noliving on 6/22/2009 11:49:05 PM , Rating: 2
If you have ever worked in such a industry it is the norm, for example I worked at gerau ameristeel in st.paul minnesota last summer, I was a c-4 steel rod bundler, my pay was $15.30 per hour, pretty much the lowest paid position at that company they had a profit sharing program called partners in performance that was on average per week around 32%, so take 32% of what you grossed for the week multiply it by pip and then add it to your paycheck, on sundays they paid overtime pay no matter on how many hours you worked previously, we had a mandatory 12 hour shift every saturday for night and after noon shifts. If you worked more then 12 hours in a day they would pay your double overtime or double your hourly wage. for ever 40-44 hours I worked I made around $1000 per week, if I worked around 80 hours a week which a lot of people including me did, you would make around 2k per week.

I know several guys at that steel plant who made around 70k but they put in enough over time they were easily making around 200k per year, and I knew it because they would show me their pay checks.

Working overtime at these types of places(manufacturing, labor intensive, etc), especially car plants is very normal. I currently work at up north plastics incorporated, pretty much every one there works 48 hours per week.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Noliving on 6/22/2009 11:53:04 PM , Rating: 2
The 2k per week is for the bundlers.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By sweetsauce on 6/22/2009 1:38:06 PM , Rating: 2
Did you even read what you linked for your argument?

quote:
In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
You also missed a key part of that link of yours.
quote:
American autoworkers are among the most productive workers in the world. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the typical autoworker produces value added worth $206 per worker per hour.1 This is far more than he or she earns in wages, even when benefits, statutory contributions and other costs are included.
Clearly the American employee is overpaid...that is when you want all the money going to CEO's and stock holders. How many pay cuts did GM and Chrysler CEO's give themselves while their companies were failing for years? Exactly.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/2009 1:40:15 PM , Rating: 1
Oh puhlezee!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By sweetsauce on 6/22/2009 1:55:08 PM , Rating: 2
Great comeback. Good to see that fancy book learnin done did you good.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/2009 3:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Clearly the American employee is overpaid...that is when you want all the money going to CEO's and stock holders.


Sorry, I don't argue with morons. I get beat by experience every time.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 3:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
It takes a big man to admit he's wrong. Guess you're not that kind of man.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Sazar on 6/25/2009 2:16:09 PM , Rating: 2
You have no proof that he is not a big man. He could be the biggest man you've never met for all you know.

:D


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By dailytechwreck on 6/27/2009 8:01:40 PM , Rating: 2
You don't want a lot of demoralized, stupid Americans. If we can't get jobs in the corporate sector, we will join the army, navy and air force.

If you think that's scary, remember that our missile launch codes just might be all zeros...

http://www.cdi.org/blair/permissive-action-links.c...


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By callmeroy on 6/22/2009 8:56:27 AM , Rating: 5
Your logic makes sense to me --- but the problem is never ending rising costs of living make it so American salaries have to be higher....higher standard of living means higher cost of living.

We can't have it both ways -- great standard of living and everyone here in the US suddenly take drastic pay cuts.

When my mortgage is only $300/month my car payment is only $150/month and food prices are virtually cut in half -- then you can tell me I have to work for less than half of what I've currently been used to earning for years now.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By seamonkey79 on 6/22/2009 9:35:01 AM , Rating: 1
Part of the never ending rising cost of living is all the companies having to increase their prices to offset the increase in salaries, which were increased to compete with the rising cost of living, which went up because of increases in salary, which went up because of a higher cost of living, which went up because of increased salaries... etc.

Now, that's obviously not the only cause, but it is a large part of the reason for a never ending cycle of increases in both. Minimum wage goes up, everything goes up to compensate, so minimum wage has to go up, and so on.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Solandri on 6/22/2009 10:56:22 AM , Rating: 2
Wages are subject to the same market forces that the price of goods are. If left to their own devices, the two (wages and price of goods) will balance out to reflect the only absolute measure in this equation - worker productivity. Excessive interference of the wage market (either unions demanding unreasonably high salaries for the amount of productivity, or businesses colluding to offer unreasonably low salaries for the amount of productivity) can break this.

Price inflation (assuming the value of the currency reflects the value of goods, not the government printing more money than it should) is a good thing. It reflects the increased value of doing something with your money. If there were no inflation, that would be saying that stuffing your money under your mattress is just as productive as e.g. investing it to start a company. Thus the fact that there's inflation is good - it means the economy is growing quickly enough that stuffing money under your mattress is a poor investment.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By bernardl on 6/22/2009 6:38:33 PM , Rating: 2
This is a well documented phenomenon called inflation.

Interestingly, it is not a mandatory by-pass of developement since the most developped country in the world, Japan, has been living without inflation for 20 years or so.

There are some negative consequences, but overall Japan is doing very well.

I suspect that greed is the real factor driving inflation.

Cheers,
Bernard


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Hiawa23 on 6/22/2009 9:43:27 AM , Rating: 4
Your logic makes sense to me --- but the problem is never ending rising costs of living make it so American salaries have to be higher....higher standard of living means higher cost of living.

We can't have it both ways -- great standard of living and everyone here in the US suddenly take drastic pay cuts.

When my mortgage is only $300/month my car payment is only $150/month and food prices are virtually cut in half -- then you can tell me I have to work for less than half of what I've currently been used to earning for years now.


I agree 100%. My & I am sure most of you, living expenses has increased tenfold, so I expect a raise from year to year just to come out even & now with the economy in the tank most of us have taken pay cuts which hurts even more, gas prices, living expenses skyrocketing.

The way I see it, I put in my time & got a degree in Bussiness, & I expect to continue to get paid a nice liveable wage, If the Indians, & Chinamen have a different midset then, that's on them, & too me shouldn't be a knock on American culture. As a college grad, I don't think I expect to get rich, but I do want a nice comfortable life. Isn't that why you go to college in the first place?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By mikefarinha on 6/22/2009 12:40:39 PM , Rating: 1
Excuse me?

You 'earned' a degree in business and this is your mindset? What school did you go to? Did you not take Macro & Micro economics?

I must have missed that class that teaches us that we, as college graduates, are entitled to 'expect a raise from year to year.'

Last I checked we were only entitled to an education and the skills to make something of ourselves... nothing more.

If you want a nice comfortable life then the pressure is on you to achieve your goals. Don't look to me and my pocketbook to subsidize your obvious lack of work ethic.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Hiawa23 on 6/22/2009 2:13:47 PM , Rating: 2
You 'earned' a degree in business and this is your mindset? What school did you go to? Did you not take Macro & Micro economics?

I must have missed that class that teaches us that we, as college graduates, are entitled to 'expect a raise from year to year.'


Thanks, my minor is in economics, did well, not sure why thta would be any concern to you, though.

You guys go way overboard. That's not what I was saying. All I was merely saying was that some will have have different expectations, that's all. The topic is about The guy talking about the mindset of some Americans compared to other cultures. I did not say you are entitled to anything. Was merely saying that my expectations will be different than another. That simple.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Mojo the Monkey on 6/22/2009 11:57:10 AM , Rating: 3
Funny, all I noticed was that your car payment was 50% of your mortgage payment and was aghast at the horrible imbalance of priorities in your life. :)


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 1:04:16 PM , Rating: 3
I don't think that ratio is out of whack, especially when you consider that most American families who have mortgages also own at least two cars.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By callmeroy on 6/23/2009 1:35:49 PM , Rating: 2
I don't get the priorities comment from that guy at all, maybe I'm thinking too small and not broad enough or something. However on the mortgage and car thing --- it was just an example actually....I was just making a point...geez...

Besides how many folks do you know that have higher car payments than mortgage payments?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Yawgm0th on 6/22/2009 10:33:43 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The biggest problem is america's (and I'm one) thing they deserve a raise every year for doing the same job.
No, that is not the problem. That is not a problem. That's how any economy works -- especially in a free market.

Almost invariably, there is inflation from year to year. Without getting a yearly raise of at least a few percent, a worker actually makes less than during the previous year. Of course, with the current recession, 2009 is shaping up to potentially be the first year of CPI deflation since 1955.

Regardless of inflation, employees have no incentive to stay with a company if they don't feel they are gainfully employed. If my company doesn't give me periodic raises, I would find a different organization that pays more. It is in a business's best interest to continue providing raises as a turnover prevention mechanism and as incentive for doing better work.

In IT particularly, a given professional's value increases dramatically with each year (up to a point). Additional experience, skills, and certifications gained will make an employee more valuable to the company and on the market. It's not an issue of American's thinking they deserve raises just for having pulses. Smart ones know that in most industries, they can move to a different company and make more money if they're not seeing increased compensation. It's about competition between businesses not just for business, but for their employees.

quote:
I think Unions are the biggest blame right now. The Auto unions bankrupt the auto companies and now has massive stock in them as a result. Unions were needed at one time but now they are just a drain on companies for no good reason.
While an overpowered or poorly managed union can cause hurt both industry and union members, I don't think that's relevant here. Very, very few IT jobs of any form are unionized.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By BigPeen on 6/22/2009 5:16:08 PM , Rating: 2
As much as I hate unions, its as much the auto company management's fault in the 70-90's or caving to the unions :'(. That and their fraudulent accounting. Knowingly making unrealistic assumptions about the state and funding of their pension plans.


By LoweredExpectations on 6/23/2009 12:09:44 AM , Rating: 2
Outsourcing is the inevitable outcome of a society that prioritizes coorporate profit and shareholder return over working wages. Taken to its extreme, outsourcing results in an impoverished working class that has to resort to debt and overtime to maintain the level of spending necessary to purchase all those imported goods. Sound familiar? Is it just coincidence that wealth concentration in the US has now returned to pre-Great Depression levels?

When it only imvolved outsourcing the manufacture of TVs and walkmans, it was great to have all those neat cheap products. After all, nobody cares about the blue collar guys in the US anymore anyway. But now that software engineers are losing their jobs to equally qualified 2nd worlders, people are beginng to get pissed off. Well the finance guys don't care any more about software engineers then they do about truck drivers, so welcome to the new American economy.

I'll start accepting Indian wages when my rent drops to whatever it is that the average Mumbai guy is paying.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By KingstonU on 6/26/2009 1:06:12 PM , Rating: 2
Today unions protect the lazy workers. If I meet someone who is outspokenly pro-union, I have a strong suspicion they are lazy.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By elegault on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/2009 9:39:41 AM , Rating: 3
I think the link between the two is your misunderstanding. Instead of shotgunning lower wages as the cause, it may be more correct to state that lower wages given to a tech community that doesn't speak english well enough as the cause.

The majority of the high paying jobs in the US now are all project management and quality assurance related. Why? Because it is understood that companies that outsource never fully interpret the desires of the customer. Part of this is due to miscommunication due to a lack of familiarity with the English language but another part, and possibly more significant, is a lack of cultural understanding. By cultural I refer to tech culture.

This guy totally hit the nail on the head when he said that Indian employees will do the "boring" work without issue. Sadly, that's all they seemingly CAN do on a large scale (i.e. severe lack of thinking outside the box). I can only assume this is due to their education system beating structure into their heads. American's, on the other hand, do have a nack for thinking outside the box. I think this difference is what allows us to provide superior products.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By marvdmartian on 6/22/2009 10:35:10 AM , Rating: 2
Reminds me of the few times I've had to speak with an actual person, while re-activating Windows XP. They have their little script, that tells them what questions to ask, and it always seems that they really don't care what the truth is, just so long as you feed them the correct response.

Tech: "Is the license being used on only this computer, or do you have it on other computers?"
Me: "No, only this one. I had to change out a piece of hardware that went bad, and windows wanted me to re-activate when I started the computer back up."
Tech: "Okay, here's your new activation number...."

God help them if you ever came out and told them you had a half dozen computers all with the same license, I think they might actually have to think about what to do next! LOL

Of course, I can't blame them, as I'm sure their wage isn't the greatest, and they're being paid to ensure that no one is ripping off a huge corporation that's half a world away. I doubt I'd care much either, in their position.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By subhajit on 6/22/2009 11:49:22 AM , Rating: 2
In my experience, most of the US IT managers aren't sure about their own requirements.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By tviceman on 6/22/2009 10:26:40 AM , Rating: 3
Would you rather have a surgeon that makes $5 an hour or $200 an hour perform open heart surgery on you?


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 6:47:00 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on how good the surgeon is!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By elegault on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Radnor on 6/22/2009 10:17:53 AM , Rating: 5
Yes of course, so you mean companies magically get the same for less ?

Yea Right. Or didn't you noticed that the products you consume are getting cheaper but the quality of the same products are also getting lower ?

The same reasoning applies to the workforce. Outsourcing vies you cheaper labor. But less quality, and for quality i refer for education/experience and all those requisites the mother company would seem essential.

It isn't racism, it is the truth. So you saying that a student coming from Berkeley produces the same quality of work that a student coming from Mumbai ?

Yeah right mate. That why all the high-profile Indians, in High-profiles companies studied in Western Universities.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By halcyon on 6/22/2009 9:12:24 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah, like all that outsourcing to bad-quality 2nd grade countries like Japan.

Or Korea.

Or Taiwan.

Look how that turned out.

Really, please read some economic history before you make a fool out of yourself.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By The Keith on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By aftlizard on 6/22/2009 9:53:58 AM , Rating: 5
I think that where ever you are from they forgot to teach you sarcasm. Which is evident in his post.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By The Keith on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Wierdo on 6/22/2009 12:29:22 PM , Rating: 2
sarcasm = the original poster is saying the opposite of what he's posting.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By btsuji on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Gul Westfale on 6/22/2009 9:41:35 AM , Rating: 4
i think he was being sarcastic.
if you had a better education you would have realized that.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By The Keith on 6/22/09, Rating: -1
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By ianweck on 6/22/2009 2:28:21 PM , Rating: 4
Why don't we just start with grammar first? Work up to sarcasm.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By borismkv on 6/22/2009 10:18:50 AM , Rating: 2
Or China. They make high quality goods. Lead poisoning is good for you!


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/25/2009 3:50:17 AM , Rating: 3
You do realize that the vast majority of the computers being used on these forums are made in China?

They don't seem low quality...


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By Locutus465 on 6/22/2009 11:32:19 AM , Rating: 3
I can confirm this, having worked with tech firms in India at my previous employer. These people just suck all around, I'm sorry but most smart Indian engineers left (and continue to leave) india for Western Europe and :gasp: the USA!! What's left in country is pure medocrity... Oh sure you have the odd ball firm that actually manages to have some intellegent engineers, but this is the exception rather than the rule sice India survies on under bidding domestic help by underpaying their help what they'd make anywhere else.

My Dad has seen this in his trips as an ISO 9000 auditor. At one point he told me maybe I should consider a different career because one of his customers were highly praising their Indian tech firm which supported all their custom software (they fired all domestic engineers they used to employed). They said they got the same quality product, at lower cost and any bugs were fixed over night while we slept here due to the time difference.

A few months later he went back and they fired their Indian tech firm, rehired domestic help and never wanted anything to do with India again. Imagine that.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By blowfish on 6/22/09, Rating: 0
RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By foolsgambit11 on 6/22/2009 1:28:07 PM , Rating: 3
I don't have a problem with outsourcing, but I do have a problem with your narrow definition of Capitalism. There is more to Capitalism than only the laissez-faire style of Capitalism. If individuals/corporations own the means of production, that's capitalism. If the government puts restrictions on how they use those means, that doesn't make it un-Capitalism, at least, not according to most.

In fact, outsourcing is really a byproduct of non-Capitalism, by your narrow definition. It is the result of restrictions on the free movement of labor, put in place by the governments of the world. If labor could move freely, then a major reason for a company to move offices would disappear. While companies still might move to a location with a more sympathetic regulatory structure, that would be a movement of headquarters, not offices, like how so many credit card companies are 'in Delaware'.

Of course, the free movement of labor is a pipe dream at the moment. As a country, we can't stand the influx of illegal aliens/undocumented workers. In a 'truly capitalist' system, there would be no such thing as an illegal alien.

So please, "Get real!"


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By BZDTemp on 6/22/2009 5:00:24 PM , Rating: 2
Run right the quality can be very good.

When putting jobs in India the important thing to remember one gets exactly what one asks for. In other words if your job description is less than perfect you get a product that is equally so.

In contrast when you put a more westerly oriented work force on the job they will often ask questions thus aiding in the discovery of design flaws. The detail work on the other hand may be less than perfect - even with companies that are certified up the wazoo.

For best results a combination of skills are often the way to go.


RE: Outsourcing at its best.
By ilikepop on 6/24/2009 6:53:06 AM , Rating: 2
Reverse-stereo typing? What kind of idiot writes something like that? There is stereotyping... you can't reverse it. It would not, in fact, be stereotyping at that point. Learny speaky engrish.


What A Dork!
By captainpierce on 6/22/2009 8:30:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He says that most Americans are simply "too expensive" to train. He compares this to Indians, which he says are highly trained, thanks to exhaustive vocational training programs which are used to supplement traditional college education.


No offense asshole but most of my training was pretty inexpensive. I also learned quite a bit on the job.

You might want to start thinking about what customers want. I don't know how many complaints I received about tech support from India that was rude, hard to understand or just plain stupid. You might want to reassess those vaunted training methods.




RE: What A Dork!
By DigitalFreak on 6/22/2009 8:52:30 AM , Rating: 5
His response to you would be:

Dirka Dirka. Dirka Dirka Dirka, Dirka Dirka! Dirka Dirka Dirka?


RE: What A Dork!
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/2009 9:03:37 AM , Rating: 5
No, no, no...

You got the line all wrong...

It's Dirka Dirka, Mohamed Jihad!

BTW, that's for Arabic slams. If you wanted to throw an insult at the Indian population you would say something like "Thank you, come again" or "NO WHEEZING THE JUICE".

Honestly, its no wonder this guy is insulting us... we can't even get our insults correct!!!

*sigh*


RE: What A Dork!
By DigitalFreak on 6/22/2009 9:19:24 AM , Rating: 3
Please to be thanking you!


RE: What A Dork!
By Integral9 on 6/22/2009 10:57:28 AM , Rating: 5
Mr Simpson! Please pay for your purchase and get out! Thank you, come again.


RE: What A Dork!
By PlasmaBomb on 6/22/2009 9:29:43 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I also learned quite a bit on the job.


That is what he is talking about, until you have your "on the job" learning done you aren't fully trained and it costs the company money (since they are paying your salary).


RE: What A Dork!
By Yawgm0th on 6/22/2009 10:56:17 AM , Rating: 3
In many, many jobs, including many IT jobs, it is not possible to know how to do a specific job until you are trained for that specific job.

Of course, that's not always the case, and that's why vocational/trade schools are growing in popularity. While there is definitely more value in a good, well-rounded education for most jobs, that doesn't a graduate can do a job any better than a non-graduate. The problem is particularly endemic in IT infrastructure jobs (help desk reps having the bottom-of-the-barrel IT infrastructure jobs). Most respected college degrees don't prepare graduates for the jobs, so companies hire people with vocational education or no education over graduates with expensive four-year or five-year degrees.

That is in IT infrastructure, though. A smart American with a good Computer Science degree should be at least as employable as any Indian graduate in any programming-related job. Mr. Nayar seems to think Americans are too lazy and undisciplined to do their jobs well, and in this aspect he is simply wrong. Americans working in all fields of technology have accomplished and will continue to accomplish more than Indians or anyone else. If we want more money than Indian counterparts to do it, it's with good reason.


RE: What A Dork!
By Yawgm0th on 6/22/2009 12:32:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
that doesn't mean a graduate can do a job any better than a non-graduate.


RE: What A Dork!
By captainpierce on 6/22/2009 4:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That is what he is talking about, until you have your "on the job" learning done you aren't fully trained and it costs the company money (since they are paying your salary).


This guy seems to think he can set an Indian down, throw some training at him for dirt cheap and he can do a job better than an American who is apparently too dumb and lazy to learn. What a joke!

Yes, my on the job learning was costing the company money but it also helped them make money too since I did a good enough job that i got customers to come back and do more business with us.


Better, or just Cheaper ?
By AntiM on 6/22/2009 9:15:27 AM , Rating: 4
He's not entirely wrong. Our company employs lots of Indians, almost exclusively as application developers. They are usually extremely polite and very smart. We shouldn't make fun of their broken English until we try to speak their language.
Basically though, it boils down to money, not some mysterious skill they may possess. As the Indian standard of living increases, they will demand more. When they figure out that they are working their a$$es off so a few people can become insanely wealthy, they will wake up and demand their piece of the pie. Right now, they're not so much better , just cheaper.

We're all somewhat guilty of outsourcing. If you've ever bought a foreign car, think about why you chose to purchase a foreign made vehicle instead of a domestic.




RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/09, Rating: 0
RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By AntiM on 6/22/2009 10:34:38 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not implying that they shouldn't have to speak English effectively. I'm saying that going to school, acquiring the technical skills needed for application development while at the same time trying to grasp a foreign language requires a certain level of hard work and determination that not all people possess.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/2009 10:45:50 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed, but while the US is the #1 consumer nation our workforce will have a thumb on the pulse of products being produced. Therefore we won't be the ones learning a foreign language to produce or integrate products. Again, this is why we can demand higher pay for the same work.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By guacamojo on 6/22/2009 11:09:15 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The national language in the US is English... The first requirement [of working for an American company] SHOULD be the possession of a superior grasp of the English language!


Uh, no it's not. The US doesn't have an official national language.

English is the most spoken language in the US, but it's not official. There are plenty of well-run, profitable American companies whose primary languages are NOT English.

quote:
They are using an English based programming language. They obviously had to learn "enough" to use the language effectively, so why shold we expect them not learn to speak English...


You're kidding, right? The English-based programming languages you mentioned have almost no relationship to the spoken language. Maybe a few of the words are similar, but the syntax of programming languages doesn't relate at all. And unless you're using voice recognition software to code, pronunciation doesn't even factor in.

I work with plenty of talented people who speak broken English. Many of them bring great insights and specialized skills that you'd be hard pressed to find elsewhere. It's not that hard to understand them; effective communication isn't compromised. I think some people are just too lazy to try listening.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By wempa on 6/22/2009 1:36:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You're kidding, right? The English-based programming languages you mentioned have almost no relationship to the spoken language. Maybe a few of the words are similar, but the syntax of programming languages doesn't relate at all. And unless you're using voice recognition software to code, pronunciation doesn't even factor in.


Are you serious ? Look at the reserved word list for ANY high level language being used. Those are ENGLISH words and they certainly do have meaning. Why do you think those words were chosen ? Why did they choose "if" and not "sky" ? It's because the word relates to what you are trying to accomplish with that particular language statement. I'm certainly not mocking any foreign languages, but he is certainly right with his post.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By guacamojo on 6/22/2009 2:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you serious ? Look at the reserved word list for ANY high level language being used. Those are ENGLISH words and they certainly do have meaning.


Certainly they are English words, which is why they were chosen. The OP's point was that mastery of these languages should somehow translate to the spoken language skills of the programmer.

My point is that reserved words' extremely narrow use in programming hardly translates to written English, let alone the spoken language.

The mnemonic value of having English-based words is certainly a plus for native speakers when learning to code, but that's about it. A non-native speaker doesn't have to learn English to be an effective programmer in any of these languages.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By Yawgm0th on 6/22/2009 3:21:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Certainly they are English words, which is why they were chosen. The OP's point was that mastery of these languages should somehow translate to the spoken language skills of the programmer.
That's not what OP's point was...

quote:
They obviously had to learn "enough" to use the language effectively, so why shold we expect them not learn to speak English well enough to provide services for tech support, requirements analysis, or product documentation?


The OP might be a little too defensive of the status of the English language in the US, but his point is not invalid.

English is the de facto lingua franca of computer science. Programmers of all kinds across many countries generally communicate with each other in English, and proper communication is essential for programming. If I have to work on code someone else has written, and the comments are incomprehensible because the programmer's English isn't good, that's a serious problem.

Any programmer (or anyone else, for that matter) could easily lose his or her job for not communicating effectively, regardless of what language he or she doesn't speak. I wish the same level of communication quality were applied to help desk professionals.

Let me quote Eric S Raymond, who most would consider to be very reputable, even an authoritative source on the matter:
quote:
If you don't have functional English, learn it.

As an American and native English-speaker myself, I have previously been reluctant to suggest this, lest it be taken as a sort of cultural imperialism. But several native speakers of other languages have urged me to point out that English is the working language of the hacker culture and the Internet, and that you will need to know it to function in the hacker community.

Back around 1991 I learned that many hackers who have English as a second language use it in technical discussions even when they share a birth tongue; it was reported to me at the time that English has a richer technical vocabulary than any other language and is therefore simply a better tool for the job. For similar reasons, translations of technical books written in English are often unsatisfactory (when they get done at all).

Linus Torvalds, a Finn, comments his code in English (it apparently never occurred to him to do otherwise). His fluency in English has been an important factor in his ability to recruit a worldwide community of developers for Linux. It's an example worth following.

Being a native English-speaker does not guarantee that you have language skills good enough to function as a hacker. If your writing is semi-literate, ungrammatical, and riddled with misspellings, many hackers (including myself) will tend to ignore you. While sloppy writing does not invariably mean sloppy thinking, we've generally found the correlation to be strong — and we have no use for sloppy thinkers. If you can't yet write competently, learn to.


He is of course talking about being a hacker (a real hacker, not the MSM's version), but I think what he is saying applies to IT in general, or at least to programming in general.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By 67STANG on 6/22/2009 1:12:13 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I can't let it slide either.

As a .Net developer, I've had my share of fixing other developers work that is either:

1)Imcomplete
2)Throwing errors
3)Been refused to be remedied by the original developer
4)Any/all of the above

I've fixed at least 6-7 applications that were coded up by programmers from India. Worst nightmare . After attempting witht the first application to just modify it to fix it, I've found that their code syntax is horrible (stored procedures too) that a complete rewrite of the application is easier.

By far, American developers are much easier to collaborate with and write much better code.

While it might be true that American developers are less prepared out of school than their counterparts in India, I can't speak to that, as I'm self-taught.

I'm mean come on... this is not rocket science, it's application development-- something that can be learned mostly through reading development books and building applications.

Schooling has little or nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with:

1)How much you can retain
2)How logically you can think
3)How much money you want to make
4)How much sleep you want to get


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By SilentSin on 6/23/2009 9:12:02 AM , Rating: 2
Absolutely. I'm in the same boat as you.

When I came aboard my current company I didn't really know the full extent of what I was getting into until I looked under the hood of some of the applications we were selling. These applications were all given to outsourced Indian devs as projects and were managed completely in India. What we got back was easily the worst code I have ever had the displeasure of looking at. I now understand the pain my intro to comp sci teacher must have felt when grading projects.

It's been my experience that you get what you pay for. While India is cheap, it winds up costing you more money in the long run due to communication barriers and code rewrites. Use a local dev (be they Indian, European, African, Kryptonian, I don't care) and you will have a better experience. The really good Indian devs have already come to the US or elsewhere as other people have noted.

The Indian contracting firms we used are some of the most successful and we were supposedly getting some of their "best and brightest". I would hate to see what would have come out of their lesser developers. Fundamental things like commenting and basic structure (for the love of god(s) how hard is it to indent correctly!?!) were nowhere to be found. I didn't even wind up majoring in comp sci and I could code circles around the crap they sold us; in fact I actually wound up having to just to get some things to work as originally intended.

If you are ever in the position to review resumes or CVs from people in India it becomes clear that there is a quality difference. It's like looking a decade into the past here in the US with some of the things they reference. Even the more senior experienced candidates will reference mundane things like HTML and CSS. Yeah sweet buddy, my 6 year old nephew can make a webpage too, maybe I should hire him instead. That's without even getting into the syntax and translation problems...Here's a quote from a reference I received that was particularly hilarious:

"Her name is *** *** and she has been working for a number of years as a senior QA engineer and as part of her experience she even have a reputed product company Nucleus Software in her kitty."

I'm not even angered that they thought this was work safe, I'm just impressed with her kitty skills. Sign her up right now! To this day I do not know in the slightest wtf they were trying to say there, but maybe I should have notified PETA.


RE: Better, or just Cheaper ?
By Noya on 6/22/2009 4:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right now, they're not so much better , just cheaper.

We're all somewhat guilty of outsourcing. If you've ever bought a foreign car, think about why you chose to purchase a foreign made vehicle instead of a domestic.


I buy foreign vehicles because they are better than domestic, not because they're cheaper (they're not).


Well
By Regs on 6/22/2009 8:24:40 AM , Rating: 2
At least we don't purposely launch a 500 million dollar shuttle directly into the moon thinking it might stop.

Maybe I'll post a more serious reply once my two blood shot eyes open up after working a 10 hr day.




RE: Well
By lotharamious on 6/22/2009 8:37:24 AM , Rating: 3
In their defense, remember when we plowed a probe into Mars several years back?

I think it had something to do with using the wrong units...


RE: Well
By Regs on 6/22/2009 9:12:39 AM , Rating: 4
I think we had the same excuse...we did it on purpose.


RE: Well
By PlasmaBomb on 6/22/2009 9:27:18 AM , Rating: 4
Could you possibly be less accurate please?

1) Back in the day the US did smash probes into the moon to generate data (Ranger 7,8, and 9), as did the USSR with Luna 2, Luna 1 was supposed to impact the moon and missed (according to NASA).
2) The Indian probe didn't cost anywhere near $500M. The whole Chandrayaan-1 project cost $80M.
3) They didn't think it might stop. The probe was even named Moon Impact Probe (MIP). It did exactly what it was supposed to - hit the moon. The orbiter is still in orbit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8094863.stm ).


RE: Well
By Fox5 on 6/22/2009 10:53:12 AM , Rating: 2
The US actually just smashed another probe into the moon I believe. Look up LCROSS.


RE: Well
By marsbound2024 on 6/22/2009 11:41:15 AM , Rating: 2
Not so fast. It was just launched and has to have time to travel to the Moon first.


RE: Well
By MatthiasF on 6/22/2009 3:05:06 PM , Rating: 2
1.) The US crashed probes with the intent of creating impact sites for study. The Indians control crashed a probe with limited radar, camera and a mass spectrometer (which didn't work) to put their flag on the Moon. So far, no scientific data has been shared on the crash site or the supposed water they were looking to find there.
2.) The $80M price tag you mention is only for the probe and it's six Indian made payloads, doesn't include the launch costs or the five foreign made payloads that were "allowed to ride for free". Launch costs are $17M, and I'm not willing to take a guess on the five state of the art foreign payloads that are doing tasks never done before, whereas the Indian payloads are 25-35 year old technologies.
3.) Yes, the orbiter is still there but can only run ONE instrument at a time because the Indians didn't design the cooling system to take radiation reflecting off the Moon's surface into account.

They had nearly fifty years of NASA and Russian probes to study but still couldn't handle such a simple thing like the sun's rays reflecting off the moon? We're reminded of this little fact nearly every night of the year.


RE: Well
By jithvk on 6/23/2009 2:27:17 AM , Rating: 2
as if you have some evidence to prove your false claims..


Wow!
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/2009 8:27:07 AM , Rating: 5
So in order to be "employable" us Americans have to learn how to speak broken english in order to work at the help desk, work for minimum wage, and move to a country providing free education. Got it, thanks!




RE: Wow!
By SpaceJumper on 6/22/2009 8:46:06 AM , Rating: 1
The tide is changing, don't under estimate it. I saw foreigners were laughing at the warning sign "Watch your head", they were laughing because of Americanlish.


RE: Wow!
By Oxygenthief on 6/22/2009 9:24:13 AM , Rating: 2
Not really, I remember George Carlin rants on this very subject twenty years ago. Every culture adds in it own stupidity to catch phrases that get truncated for use on signs or for some other purpose. Anyone ever heard this one "Line the gap"? It's in English but it's not American!

Since I don't know any of the Indian culture catch phrases I can't make a comparison, but I'd wager money there are a few literal translations that may give us Americans a chuckle or two.


RE: Wow!
By rdeegvainl on 6/22/2009 10:08:14 AM , Rating: 3
When I was working with NATO, there was a sign put up by a transformer. It said
"Do not touch, You could be like this guy!"
They put a big picture of a skull there, but unfortunately it was the PUNISHER skull. I laughed every time I walked by. If only electrocuting myself would make me as awesome as Frank Castle...

tldr;
Culture makes things fun!


RE: Wow!
By HaB1971 on 6/22/2009 11:31:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"Line the gap"? It's in English but it's not American!


Maybe you actually mean "Mind the gap?"


RE: Wow!
By Smilin on 6/22/2009 2:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
It's not a question either.

It's "Mind the gap."

As in "Pay attention to the gap between the train and the platform" when stepping on or off a subway in London's underground.


RE: Wow!
By Yawgm0th on 6/22/2009 11:02:34 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sure we would find their idioms just as humorous. It doesn't mean working with an Indian or any other non-native English speaker is any easier -- in fact the lack of understanding the finer points of English, such as our countless idioms, is exactly the problem.

Of course, I'm generalizing -- I've worked with more than a few Indians in particular who spoke more effectively than many of their American counterparts.


Personal Experience
By NauticalStrong on 6/22/2009 9:17:51 AM , Rating: 2
At the risk of attracting the wrath of others.... I manage a team of 22 developers in Texas and know there are very bright capable developers from all over the globe. The foreign trained developers tend to work very hard, do what they're asked, and give you little grief as a manager (as a generalization -- there are always plenty of exceptions). The down side is you need to tell them what to do and check up on their progress more frequently. Most foreign developers I have here have had some U.S. eduction -- probably because they came here for eduction and decided to stay for work.
On the other hand, American grads can be easier to communicate with but harder to keep motivated. Some of the American grads I've hired believe their degrees and birth-right are a guarantee for greatness, and as a result they become dissatisfied if they don't advance quickly or get frequent kudos.
In all, a diversified team is generally a strong team.




RE: Personal Experience
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 9:43:20 AM , Rating: 2
I loved the "give you little grief" part. If you manage a team that offers no constructive criticism, it is a sucky team. Of course by "grief" you might mean destructive criticism, which doesn't do anyone any good. Unfortunately I've been managed by too many people who think any critique is being subversive to their authority. It makes me unhappy.


RE: Personal Experience
By Smilin on 6/22/2009 9:58:38 AM , Rating: 2
Whasnap! You sure did project a lot of feelings about your past bosses onto this guy just because he said "give you little grief".

Maybe those old managers were on to something about you?


RE: Personal Experience
By nathanvaneps on 6/22/2009 2:25:06 PM , Rating: 2
That I am subversive or unhappy?


RE: Personal Experience
By Smilin on 6/24/2009 6:08:32 PM , Rating: 2
Yes.


RE: Personal Experience
By JoshuaBuss on 6/22/2009 11:03:39 AM , Rating: 3
You've nailed it man. After working in the industry for almost 10 years and being at a diverse school for both my undergraduate and graduate computer science degrees, that's exactly what I've seen.

It just seems like the basic work ethic of Asians is 100-fold better than that of Americans, even if the creativity and general ability to communicate is a lot better with U.S. born engineers.

I know we used to have a lot of hard workers here in the U.S., but somewhere in the last generations or so Americans lost their work ethic.


RE: Personal Experience
By ZachDontScare on 6/22/2009 2:53:10 PM , Rating: 2
I've had similar experience. Indians/Indonesians/Other-SE-Asians tend to be very good at the details and following directions. I've seen them give a manager exactly what they want... even if the product is completely non-functional because the spec was bad. Developers in the western world tend to be far more innovative and creative at solving problems, and more willing to tell a boss he's an idiot and that the project should be done some other way. As much as a business owner may think he needs the former, the latter is also needed if a company is to thrive.


Unfotunately, he is right in many aspects
By BigRedNole on 6/22/2009 9:19:41 AM , Rating: 2
You have to look at it from his point of view. In India, there are two classes: educated and slums. There is little or no middle ground like we have in the US.

We are creating generations of idiots in this country. When SAT tests need to be written at 8th grade levels, there is a problem with the high school graduates going to college. When all government documentation needs to be at an 8th grade level, you know there are problems. There is an easier solution to the plight of our country: stop letting garbage move on. Get rid of "No Child Left Behind". Make students learn the material instead of learning how to pass a test. That way, if they learned the material, they can be given any test and score well. Do you know how many people in the US could go to college in India? I would venture to say far less than 1%. Their grade school requirements annihilate ours. They study and go to school for 12+ hours a day. We try to get ours to go for less than 4 hours.

Its a sad state when you have quotes like this at a graduation:

"I be gettin my degree! Obama be pesident, give me free colige"
"Yo no se!"




RE: Unfotunately, he is right in many aspects
By wuZheng on 6/22/2009 9:46:36 AM , Rating: 4
Wait what?

I live in Canada so forgive my ignorance of your school system. But in elementary we were at school from 8:30 -> 3:30 (i think...), in High School, it was more like 8:00 -> 2:30. I can't speak for those studying liberal arts programs in post-secondary schools, but in EE, the average bad day is like 8:30-5:30 (lectures/labs alone...), good days are like a four lectures, but still...

I agree the North American education systems are in decline... why? Because we already succeeded, we're "developed" the need to work hard just simply isn't there anymore. This is probably why we make demons out of foreigners who try harder, and do better jobs than we do, to try to spur some pride and hard work in our own populace. Its not working, and I'm not surprised.

A mentor of mine used to tell me that one day, China will surpass the US as the world's superpower. I agree, they MIGHT just be able to, whether the US likes it or not. However, won't the same vicious cycle of complacency hit them like it did in their imperial days? Are we all essentially doomed because of our own human nature?


By HotFoot on 6/22/2009 3:54:39 PM , Rating: 4
Yes. Now pass the rum.


By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:06:02 PM , Rating: 1
They won't reach the same level of complacency because of the societal differences, that even as more and more of China becomes modernized, the average citizen will not have the same standard of living.

This may change if/when America's population grows, we need to remember China is a much older country than the US, but also that even with this advantage communism tends to stifle innovation, though not necessarily military power.

Same for Russia, in coming decades we will have China, Russia, and the US being the most influential. Chinese-Russian relations put a precarious spin on this, alliances will be the cornerstone of global power.


By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 4:54:45 PM , Rating: 2
I suspect you are missing the bigger picture. When an Indian company isn't willing to pay a competitive wage they don't attract the top-notch people, they get the leftovers, those who were passed over by better employers' headhunters or in the hiring process.

So we have an Indian company trying to contrast people used to a higher standard of living, who aren't particularly interested in selling their soul for the welfare of the foreign company and less pay than equally skilled employees in other regions.

Imagine that, like the fact that water is wet, paying more will result in higher quality potential employees competing for and willing to work a job.

As for the entire implication that the Indian educational system is superior, pause and think hard about something...

It's an AMERICAN company that developed the worldwide dominant OS, and that OUTSOURCES to India, not the other way around. India is not a small country, do they make globally recognized automobiles, CPUs, military tech, etc?

Maybe a few items, but overall the conjecture that their students graduate more capable is starkly contrasted by the fruit from the tree.

As for the last sentence you wrote as a quote, humor is a sign of higher intelligence, if you don't think anyone in India is onto the internet wordsmithing hobby, think again.


Six Sigma! Give me a break.
By ralith on 6/22/2009 8:31:59 AM , Rating: 5
Six sigma is just yet another "process" thing to get in the way of the folks doing real work and give the managers a sense of doing something because they can say they got six sigma training. Although it can be freaking hilarious to watch the manager kowtow six sigma trained folks because “they know better then me.” Freakin sheep.




RE: Six Sigma! Give me a break.
By Acanthus on 6/22/2009 10:16:06 AM , Rating: 4
6S really is a joke.

Motorola invented the concept, look at how well they are doing...

If it weren't for the Razr and some no-bid military contracts, they'd be out on the street.

6S sets the bar too high and results in products being slow to market and obsolete by the time you start actually moving units.


RE: Six Sigma! Give me a break.
By callmeroy on 6/22/2009 10:52:49 AM , Rating: 3
i don't think the technology tract of 6S was ever that impressing a qualification to have...but remember there is 6S for other fields too --- like Finance.

At my former job I worked at a 10,000 employee bank --- (they were a victim of the whole bank/mortgage crash) one of the nicest people I ever worked with at the executive level was a VP for East Coast Sales - consumer lending. (Btw, in all honesty her division maintained the most favorable profits even up to the "end"). Anyway she was going for her 6S -- at that time when we had the conversation (about 2 years ago ) she basically said 6S is well sought in the Finance sector and with a few years banking experience behind it (she had about 25 years) you are practically gauranteed six figures.

That aside , again, I've been involved with the tech industry for over a decade and I've never heard 6S for technology touted as anything great --- certainly not over CS degrees or respected certs like CCIE.


Stop Blaming Schools
By room200 on 6/22/2009 10:40:25 AM , Rating: 3
Listen, take responsibility for the children you send to school. We at public schools are not miracle workers. Some of you want us to be your child's social worker, mother, father, police-officer, and whatever else the hell they lack by the time they get to school. The children don't behave because some of you parents teach them that they are the cutest thing in the world and everyone cares about their opinions AT ALL TIMES. Sometimes you teach them to be quiet, be polite, sit down, listen, and simply act like a damn child.




RE: Stop Blaming Schools
By BB33 on 6/22/2009 1:13:36 PM , Rating: 3
You are correct it is not fully the schools fault. The parents and gov. have tied the hands of the public school system with you cant do anything to my child and no child left behind crap. parents even more so by not instilling any type of disapline in their children or teaching them that they must work and prove themselves continually. though the school system has its own natural limitation of large classes forcing one method of teaching for all children. That said I have a high level of respect for teachers they have a thankless job and parents are not helping them one bit.


RE: Stop Blaming Schools
By Smilin on 6/22/2009 2:08:59 PM , Rating: 1
I'll blame schools if they graduate the students.

If a kid doesn't have the skills to face the world then don't graduate them. If you fail them then we can start getting into the "parents take responsibility" vs "american schools are poor" debate.

Again though: this article is about graduates. If they suck then it is the schools fault since the school is the one who signed off saying they were ready.


RE: Stop Blaming Schools
By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:15:49 PM , Rating: 2
I'd rate this up if I hadn't already posted other comments for this topic.

Indeed we have to place blame on educators if they give passing marks to students who didn't learn enough. At the same time we can't just focus on the student-teacher dynamics, we have to set the bar higher so the less motivated or gifted students aren't able to achieve passing grades, some people are simply never able to translate memorized material into a working understanding and as such they should not receive passing marks.

Then again, we already have too many over-educated people working at manual labor jobs, there is a fine line between how highly trained a select few are and how little we need are educational system to do in order to make the rest of the students fit for the workforce.

For example it would be madness for all computer science majors to concentrate heavily on the specific skill sets this Indian company needs, since most of them will not be hired by that company. It is similarly madness when we give general educations in things people will never need. For example if one isn't pursuing a degree in a science related field, how much good is advanced geometry, calculus or physics really going to do them in the future?

To some extent I feel the fundamental flaw in the US educational system is the idea of an overgeneralized bachelors degree, that most students should be attending a trade or technical school working together with local businesses instead of a regular college to give them more focused learning.


funny
By yacoub on 6/22/2009 2:48:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Many have taken offense at Mr. Nayar's rhetoric. Information Week's Robert Preston comments, "Imagine if the CEO of a U.S.-based tech company marched into Mumbai seeking a bigger share of the country's multibillion-dollar market and declared the locals to be unemployable and untrainable. A culture of innovation isn't inconsistent with one that values attention to detail."


Well Mr. Preston, what you see there is the difference between a culture that's open with its criticism versus one that has become babied and childish and unable to face reality. Welcome to America, where we can't call a loser a loser because "everyone's a winner" so no one's feelings get hurt -- because feelings are more important than reality here. And this is where such a mentality leaves us: behind the pack.




RE: funny
By TomZ on 6/22/2009 3:14:59 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're right - Americans could stand to collectively raise the bar a bit. What we need to all realize is that, in effect, when it comes to economics, we are not only cooperating with the rest of the world, but we are also competing with them as well.

Because we are competing with the rest of the world, we need to react and adjust accordingly. First, we have to collectively improve our work ethic. We have to realize that we are not entitled to "the good life" just because we were born here.

Second, we have to raise our standards for education across the board. The situation within education is pretty sad when you look at the big picture. Only by doing these two things (and probably more) will we be able to continue to enjoy economic success and the corresponding high standard of living into the future.


RE: funny
By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:33:52 PM , Rating: 2
I will counter that once the average Indian citizen enjoys the same economic successes the US does, then they too will depend more and more on outsourcing to less economically successful countries' labor pools.

This much is inevitable, everyone is talking about education when it's not about that, it's about the cost of labor which causes a continued lower standard of living so long as we maintain a balance of how much outsourcing is done.


RE: funny
By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:28:02 PM , Rating: 2
Calling someone a loser does nothing productive. What is productive is seeing the market for what it is, high quality employees from America have no motivation to take lower wages working for an Indian company.

Let's face the facts, we're not outsourcing to get higher quality, we're doing it to save a buck. Our culture is hurting because of corporate greed, but not from upholding the principle that everyone has potential and should be encouraged to be a winner instead of being discouraged by labeling them as a loser.

It's called motivation, give someone a goal and the belief they can obtain it. Now tell me which American born and educated students have a goal to work for an Indian company at lower pay? Few if any, only those with such specialized interests that the Indian company is in a unique market position.

We aren't behind the pack by having a higher standard of living AND YET not having to work as hard for it. How backwards can you be?


Statistics
By ClownPuncher on 6/22/09, Rating: 0
RE: Statistics
By zaki on 6/22/2009 1:05:42 PM , Rating: 3
well obviously..i think everybody here has already established that somebody from a developed nation in a life style where you dont have to worry about food water and shelter would not go to another country where he or she would have to worry about food water and shelter.

and why do i notice this tone of arrogance when people use the words "slave labor wages" do you look down on that? there is nothing wrong with a person taking something and being grateful for what it is worth. I think because you probably have never faced hardship perhaps you dont not understand the value of a "slave labor wage"
it is a means for millions of people to improve their lives.


RE: Statistics
By ClownPuncher on 6/22/2009 8:00:12 PM , Rating: 2
True, people should be happy about being exploited. Don't project so much onto what I said. There was no insult, implied or otherwise, to people who work for ridiculously low wages. The insult is applied to the gangsters and slumlords that perpetuate the poverty.


RE: Statistics
By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:20:12 PM , Rating: 2
It sustains them in the short term to have a slave labor job but in the long run it just perpetuates a lower standard of living.

What would happen if these jobs went away? They would develop their own market infrastructure instead of supporting others, the same way all other countries with higher average standard of living did... without having outsourced yet.


What a surprise
By nvalhalla on 6/22/2009 8:27:32 AM , Rating: 2
The head of an Indian company says Indian (and Chinese and Brazilian I guess) workers are better than Americans. What did you expect him to say? "Indians suck, Americans are awesome."? I know from first hand experience that projects outsourced to Indian firms have come back unusable trash. That's not to say all Indian workers are idiots, but they aren't universally better. The people there aren't better trained than Americans, all countries have morons in the workforce.




RE: What a surprise
By zaki on 6/22/2009 1:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
agreed and apparently india has one moron that made it to CEO position.


RE: What a surprise
By Kunikos on 6/26/2009 3:09:04 PM , Rating: 2
Don't you go applying common sense to upper managers' presentations! You're fired!


So called "tech grads"
By lotharamious on 6/22/2009 8:35:52 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know about you, but I go to one of these so called "tech" universities here in the states and I'll just add that many Indians and Asians come to the US after high school so that they can have an quality (I know many international students who come to the US because we're universally thought of as a collegiate powerhouse) and affordable (it's totally unfair the sheer amount of free scholarship money they get just for being from somewhere outside the US) education.

According to this goof ass though that's not the case. It must be because American "tech grads" are so stupid and "unemployable".




RE: So called "tech grads"
By Goty on 6/22/2009 9:17:41 AM , Rating: 2
The quality of the education may be higher, but the problem isn't necessarily the institutions, it's the people themselves. Speaking from my own teaching experience (I teach a few physics classes at a public university), the majority of students are lazy, incompetent, and unmotivated. Unfortunately, the blame for this lies squarely on our primary and secondary educational systems where nobody is punished for failing to learn and master the material the students are supposed to be required to know.

It's frankly disgusting that we allow people into college who are barely able to read at a competent level and who aren't even proficient with fractions, let alone basic algebra! These are things I learned before I was 10 years old and some of these people can't do them at 20.


RE: So called "tech grads"
By Boze on 6/24/2009 8:24:22 AM , Rating: 2
I personally blame a lot of that on the psychology movement of the past 100 years, but most in particular, the 'self-esteem' movement, which if you cannot tell, I don't place much stock in.

I think many parents and teachers believe, falsely, that it would hurt a child's 'self-esteem' to be held back a grade, or to even fail a class. I personally think we should be less worried about how they feel about themselves and more worried about how much they actually know and learn.

I think a lot of blame can be placed squarely on the shoulders of most parents as well though. Raising a child is more than providing them shelter, food, and clothing. You need to provide love and discipline, and instill a sense of hard work and passionate desire for learning. Nearing 30, I look back now and realize that my mother did this by always being enthusiastic about everything we did when I was a little child; from reading a book (which I think contributed to my love of reading) to helping me with my homework in kindergarten. She never told my sister or myself that we were "bad" kids, either; probably a holdover from something my grandmother told her, which was, "Kids believe what they're told Patricia, if you tell them they're good and smart and beautiful, they'll grow up believing they're good and smart and beautiful." My girlfriend regularly comments that this is likely the reason I have such a black and white view of the world and rarely accept gray, and also why, much to her chagrin, that I hold everyone else to exacting standards.

Sorry for the rambling.


April Fools?
By Funksultan on 6/22/2009 8:42:41 AM , Rating: 4
Is this actually Eddie Murphy, just trolling to get the DailyTech crowd riled up?

Seriously, this guy looks like one of the Klumps.




RE: April Fools?
By lotharamious on 6/22/2009 8:45:28 AM , Rating: 2
Dog Gonnit! I think I just messed up my pants...


Home School
By BB33 on 6/22/2009 9:48:33 AM , Rating: 2
This is why I home school. The US public school system is failing our children by not failing them and forcing them to master the material.




RE: Home School
By mindless1 on 6/23/2009 5:48:59 PM , Rating: 2
That's not a reason to home school, you could as easily demand the child study the public classwork and supplement it with further material.

What home schooling does instead is detract from the level of social skills a child develops, which in turn cause them fewer and fewer quality social interactions, essentially stealing the best parts of life away from them. People aren't computers or robots and the idea to make them into one should always be resisted.

By the above I'm not suggesting home schooling is inherently damaging per se, but in most cases the justification is misplaced, there are few good reasons to home school except if one is too impoverished to live in an area where the public schools are relatively safer than many inner-city public schools are. Even so, sooner or later the child has to face these elements in life and rather than all at once it is typically better than they be exposed gradually over years of schooling so they learn to build coping skills as part of their social skill set.


RE: Home School
By sallyjune on 6/26/2009 5:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, you are wrong. Home schooled children spend more time with the teacher than a kid in a classroom, and are forced to do more of the advanced thinking than kids in public school. I know whereof I speak; our 6th grader has been homeschooled since grade 1, and every adult who talks to her is impressed with her maturity and ability to articulate. She spends time with kids at lots of different formal and ad hoc functions. She also holds her own rather well in a room full of adults.

But the real reason we homeschool? I had neices who went to public school in the 1980s and 90s. They knew more about Harriet Tubman than they did about George Washington, and their "thinking" amounted to becoming slavish followers of PETA, Karl Marx and Bella Abzug. I want my kid to be a productive member of society, able to think for herself when she becomes an adult. I was -- and am -- not convinced that the public schools could help her as well as her parents could.

I should also mention that the dozens of homeschooled kids I have met have impressed me as thoughtful, polite young people with whom I would happily pass the time. Not so the products of public schools. (BTW, the public schools in my area are rated as superior.)


In ref to indians
By bludragoon on 6/23/2009 12:03:26 AM , Rating: 2
Boy these comments go all over the place so I felt I must respond.

1. Unions have played an important role in american history in creating each individuals worth. Before them you where a piece of meat if killed just simply replaced, no benefits not even a grave. Not to say they are perfect and my favorite thing...I would like to get into some of them myself.
I am for the other side playing by our rules, not us lowering our standards.

2. I sorta like the patton ref...in that the us needs to be concerned with itself, which it really is anyway. But too many consumers and politicians have taken the easy way for too long. It is no longer an after ww2 environment with the only industrialized nation standing being the US. We where living on all the hard things previous generations have done for us from ddt (whats a bed bug?), wiping out many diseases (no I wont immunize my child), to industrial and economic might (glas segal and the like gone to prevent meltdowns). Prior to ww1 we had a standing army of 5000 men for most of our history we where a bunch of farmers indebt see thomas jeff.

3. Not to say different cultures re just that but you seem to contradict yourself in your first statements having no personal experience...i admit I stopped reading your posts...

Anyway isnt Anand Lal Shimpi of indian decent and I think you are posting on one of his sites?

I really started to read this article because I am looking for something in the field so I wanted to see what this guy had to say. I will say as a former boss of many techs and engineers that there maybe some truth to both sides though I am all for keeping American citizens a number one priority, and only special cases should be allowed to work here say a real shortage or specialty say like Werner Von Braun. I will also say I prefer an American tech support when disparaging a new sound card install.

Cheers great site even if we all go off topic!




RE: In ref to indians
By Boze on 6/24/2009 7:49:32 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, its true, Anand Lal Shimpi has an Indian name, he is from Indian lineage. But make no mistake, he is as American as apple pie. You can infer it in his writing. I have been reading AnandTech since a few months after it went online. I've seen him progress, through his writing reviews and blog posts, from a teenager to a man. There's no doubt that people living in America see a person's race first - that's a human thing, not an American thing. What makes us American is how we see ourselves. When Anand applied for a passport, did he say he was Indian? Of course not. When any black person applies for a passport, do they say they are African? No. We're all Americans , and I think a lot of people forget that.

My heritage may be German and French. I might look German, but I'm American, through and through. I don't share German ideals, I don't share French ideals. I believe in and support American ideals.

By the way, are you absolutely insane? Not only do not have a choice about immunizing your child (you are required by law to do this), its also a really smart thing to do. Vaccines and immunizations are created by us doctors because at some point in human history, we got sick of seeing little babies dying or being crippled by a disease our intellect could conquer, its not some nefarious plot against the "wholesomeness" of man, or nature, or whatever other moronic comment I've heard from people.

And I also hate to inform you, you still have bed bugs in our bed... especially since DDT has been banned in America for a long time now... and don't even get me started on what an idiotic mistake banning DDT was.


RE: In ref to indians
By bludragoon on 7/2/2009 2:54:55 AM , Rating: 2
Hi, When I mentioned Anad it was in reply to someone who was flaming Indians in general in this thread and it seemed humorously ironic that he was posting on a site of a first generation American as myself...who is of two cultures.

Second, I feel I must correct your reversing my meaning.

Your point was exactly my point.

Pseudo science, political correctness among other trends have caused problems that where thought to have been eradicated or just fairy tales to come back from the brink. I used the rhetorical examples of bedbugs, the anti vaccine movement as examples.

Those that have gone before made tough decisions balanced on the pros and cons that made our last 50 years (in the US) a golden age for convenience, safety, political/financial/industrial power that we enjoyed and now it is fading and the world goes back to balance as other powers obtain parity.

This could have been stopped or slowed with the correct hard decisions, by our fellow citizens, to the benefit of all.

cheers to all ;) !


By blakhama on 6/22/2009 10:44:48 AM , Rating: 2
hahaha "more willing to put the effort into "boring" details of tech process and methodology, such as ITIL, Six Sigma, etc." ....sounds more oppressive than innovative to me. Did Albert Einstein use six sigma to develop his theories? Did Bill Gates and Paul Allen use ITIL, Six Sigma to develop windows?

Building more robots to follow the book to the T? Let's throw entrepreneurship and innovation out the window...

I forgot that India and it's systematic, hand held, low distraction, low cost country was the first to:
-send a man to the moon
-develop nukes
-develop the largest most robust economy (despite present turmoil)
-develop modern day computing
-the worlds most technologically advanced military

Regardless if you are Indian or American, the degree dosn't define the person. heck, even half the forbes 500 never even completed college. So yes you chubby f&%&, day dreaming about being R$CH is the reason why America is the world wealthiest nation. Isn't that the ultimate drive?




By DigitalFreak on 6/22/2009 4:23:48 PM , Rating: 3
They make a damn fine slurpee though!


I'll get modded to hell for this.
By Smilin on 6/22/2009 9:54:45 AM , Rating: 2
He might not be entirely wrong.

I'm right now doing phone screens and face to face interview to hire for several positions at my company. We're scouring hundreds of resumes that have already been filtered by recruiters to get to phone screens then doing dozens of phone screens to get down to a handful of interviews.

It's bad man. I'm having a terrible time finding qualified candidates. All the while I've got two folks from India sitting by me who rock.




By Smilin on 6/22/2009 11:15:15 AM , Rating: 2
Let me also add..

One of the best candidates I've seen is not a "grad". He's entirely self taught and puts the college grads to shame.


White collar, blue collar.
By ChristopherO on 6/22/2009 1:42:44 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately I blame India's dumping of tech-workers to be one of the biggest reasons the technology industry is going from highly educated technology workers, to "vocationally trained employees" (just as their CEO mentioned, and it's his fault!).

In the old days, Big Blue required all employees in suits. Almost every technology worker had a degree in CS and many/most had a graduate-level education... Graduate degrees were virtually required at IBM for any significant advancement (unless you were really, really good and made a name for yourself).

I see "cheap foreign labor" as an attempt to turn software design into a giant assembly line. The problem with 6S and all these other processes is that when you run an assembly line, you have to employ ridiculous processes for quality purposes. Highly educated labor (I don't care from *where*, here, England, India, whatever) tends to implicitly understand quality and doesn't lose efficiencies by having lots of people. That's why auto-makers have to go through lots of QA inspections, because with the exception of the QA team, a lot of assembly line guys are never instructed how the whole thing should look when its put together.

That's also why the standardized CS curriculum is mostly understanding computer theory, and trade-schools teach, "VB", "C#" whatever. They aren't interested in theoretical, just spitting out a graduate as fast as possible capable of writing code without understanding the big picture. I'm also not trying to slam vocational tech-schools, there is a legitimate reason for both, but flooding an entire industry with one type of graduate isn't good.

I have no idea how this is going to work out. Either the vocationally-trained foreign labor will go after traditional educations (and squeeze out the "cheap outsourcing" when they demand a better lifestyle), or they are going to completely trash the tech industry as a place to find decent paying jobs. Or a third possibility -- it will have the long-term effect of unionizing the industry, and then you'll end up paying a lot for minimally trained guys (rather than paying a lot for guys with graduate degrees).

My last point annoys me the most. It would have the effect of making CS degrees useless, quality will ultimately suffer, and the number of people in the system who understand anything will eventually shrink to a small number. You think software has a lot of bugs now? Wait until that happens...




RE: White collar, blue collar.
By FITCamaro on 6/23/2009 6:42:06 AM , Rating: 2
Agree 100% with Six Sigma. It does nothing but create time wasting "processes" that you spend more time trying to adhere to and review than actually getting work done. I had to participate in our companies initiative to get to CMMI level 3 and it was a waste of people's time. But we had to do it because the industry expects to see it.


Absolutely True
By Ben on 6/23/2009 1:16:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He elaborated that he views American tech grads as inferior to those from India, China, and Brazil as the Americans only want to "get rich" and dream up "the next big thing".


I find this to be 100% true. Nobody from this country wants to work any more. More and more people spend their time trying to scheme and manipulate other people out of their money rather than earn it themselves.




RE: Absolutely True
By PandaBear on 6/23/2009 2:28:20 AM , Rating: 2
Bull crap.

My boss have outsourced some of the work to India and after 2 years, all we got is having them sent back to the US for training after training. Out of a team of 12, there is at least 1 in the US at all time. The work they do well is testing, and only testing, and following six sigma and document, procedures, that they are so flexible and could not get any real work done.

When they see a bug they never try to go and fix it, but rather just "report" it to the appropriate party (i.e. You, the people they are suppose to be helping). It is like having a manager that tells you to generate another tps report from India.

They also cannot understand anything in the embedded system world, and wasn't able to do work in low level where tools are not available or require real skills in debugging on real hardware, outside the Microsoft development suite, database, java, or scripting languages. They are only good at holding meetings and talking trash, rather than doing real development and integration works.

We got so much complain from our other departments (the user of their work), that we end up scraping any additional role they were to do other than unit test, test cases, and regression testing. This is the area where they can generate the least amount of damage to our real work and products.


Unemployable?!!
By ImEmmittSmith on 6/22/2009 9:46:11 AM , Rating: 3
That's funny coming from a country where most American's detest having to call tech support knowing that they will get someone that is brash and attempts to speak English. This is not everyone, because I have spoken to some really nice people, but the way they talk with each other(culture) and deal with others spills over. It has gotten better over time, but many times, I have to hang up and call back because I cant understand Mike or John or Sam. ;o) If those same people where to work her in the US, they would be hard pressed to find a job without improving their verbal communication. Brazil, don't get me started!

I totally agree with several other posters that see people from various countries coming to the UNEMPLOYABLE USA to get their education. I don't see Americans or other countries swarming to India for their education.

For some reason, people in other parts of the world think Americans are lazy, overpaid, and not willing to put in a hard days work. Like any country you have your slackers, but I and others I know work our butts off and produce a high level of quality work. Sure we get paid well, but that is all relative to where you live. Just like in any country, there are all levels of income levels and all levels of work ethic.

Cheers




There's stupid people every where
By IcePickFreak on 6/22/2009 11:05:41 AM , Rating: 2
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there's idiots on both sides. I know I've worked with my fair share of idiots that are Americans.

On the other hand, I've also worked with some Indians who are idiots. At my current job, the head of engineering moved here from India in the 70's and has been with the company for 30+ years now. His English is still horrible, and one day in an engineering meeting he had to ask what 3/8 was in a decimal - yes, an engineer, the head of engineering no less, asked that. I'd almost call this situation a wash - the guy that promoted him to that position is almost as dumb as he is.




By Belard on 6/23/2009 4:28:29 PM , Rating: 1
This most this India guy proves is that he's as much of an asshole as anyone else in the world.

I've delth HP's "impressive" Indian support - the guy on the other side was getting MAD because WE couldn't understand what he was saying because of his accent!


Six Sigma
By vapore0n on 6/22/2009 8:35:06 AM , Rating: 2
Ha ha ha ha ha

and this comes from an "6S expert"




HCL = poor quality
By jemix on 6/22/2009 9:08:36 AM , Rating: 2
My help desk job at a major US tech company was outsourced to HCL. I moved into another position within the company, but even after 3 years, I'm hearing from people who 'hate' dealing with the help desk. To this day, I get calls directly from people, because they don't want to call the help desk.

As I see it, there are two reasons:
1. Language barrier.
2. The HCL help desk is not helpful. Either the tickets that they create are extremely vague - example: "computer broken", or they ask too many irrelevant questions - example: When an LCD monitor is broken, questions like "What OS is your computer?" or "What service pack is installed?" are asked.

It's very frustrating dealing with HCL.

If you've ever called an HCL help desk, this quote will probably will look familiar - "PLEASE DO THE NEEDFUL".




By stubeck on 6/22/2009 9:35:45 AM , Rating: 2
While I partially agree with his statement that a lot of Americans are interested solely in money, he is misguided if he thinks Chinese and Indians are perfect.

I went to grad school in the UK (I'm an American) and the class was made up mainly of Chinese and Indian students. Unlike the Chinese and Indian students I've dealt with in the US (who were all very good and hard working) those in the UK were usually lazy and were their simply for a degree from a UK school. They came there as well because it was mostly group work, so they did not have to do much work.

Also, when I was in groups with them many would not do any work, and simply argue points while not putting any logic into their arguments. For example, we were trying to decide on a project to do, one of them wanted to do it on Zigbee and I asked why. He said it was the future, and when I asked him to explain it further he simply reiterated the point and would not continue any further.




By xrodney on 6/22/2009 9:39:06 AM , Rating: 2
Personally i cant comment on quality of workers in US or China, but from my personal experience most of IT specialist from India is below average compared to EU.




Invalid Comparison
By tech329 on 6/22/2009 9:57:44 AM , Rating: 2
When supposedly smart people, on either side of the argument, make these comparisons you have to wonder what they're thinking or what was their motivation.

It is especially ridiculous to make comparisons about the cost of labor. The cost of labor has nothing to do with the argument and everything to do with the cost structure of a particular economic unit.

It is equally ridiculous to compare cost or quality of training. For many years foreign born persons flocked to the U.S. for education. That has changed now but the reason is mostly attributable to educational institutions outside of the U.S. having slowly but surely narrowed the gap regarding the availability of training.

As for the quality of training, I suspect because tech is a global commodity the quality of training is globally consistent. With tech being as globally sensitive as it is I am sure the educational marketplace actually defines the quality aspect and thus guarantees parity.




America Graduates
By Robin Hossain on 6/22/2009 12:08:29 PM , Rating: 2
I've been recruiting and managing IT staff for 17 years across the globe.

Indians aren't that great. They are culturally different in a way that makes then good for black box application programming - but due to cultural and communication differences with the West, they do not contribute well at higher level design where cross communication is key.

Americans aren't that great either. They are too concerned with pay issues and are often culturally too proud and hateful towards 'foreigners' eliminating them as a first choice.

My lengthy and involved experiences have led me to rank software engineers as well as electronic engineers as follows:

1. Poland
2. Singapore
3. Great Britain
4. Germany
5. New Zealand
6. American
7. French
8. Indian
9. Australian
10. Japanese (intense cultural issues/cover ups)

This is just my experience of software and electronic engineers - cultures and times are changing. Japan is rapidly slipping. Indian culture is changing. Americans may start to wake up...




Education/Industry Disconnect
By Starcub on 6/22/2009 12:42:23 PM , Rating: 2
This has been a long problem in American education. I had a computer engineering professor tell me that businesses want graduates who are trained to do the jobs that they want them to do. Universities however, have developed to train students how to think and solve problems of a general technical nature.

This article suggests that in India, educational institutions are more responsive to the needs of industry. Perhaps they are more reponsive to the employers because they are more dependent upon them for financial asistance.

Granted there are cultural differences that contribute to differing expectations that graduates with differing nationalities have. However, the US also has vocational education institutions that are highly tech specialized. Maybe he's only refering to university graduates, who generally go after higher pay, and/or reponsibility positions.




By CosmoJoe on 6/22/2009 12:55:13 PM , Rating: 2
The pic of Vineet Nayar is begging for a Photoshop job. Bonus points if someone can 'shop in a triple decker ham sandwich or maybe a Big Mac with extra lard.




By zaki on 6/22/2009 1:02:03 PM , Rating: 2
I am not from the US but I have went to middle school, high school here, and now i am studying engineering here. I dearly hope that asian cultures remain intact because if my generation is to lead the world then we are in trouble. Most american students care more about their facebook status than what they're learning in class. American students care mostly only about fun and pleasure. This is pretty sad, as I have some really capable friends (american) who dont know the first thing about hard work.
what I hate about india is that they either look up too much to the west or are completely bullish. They should do business as their culture teaches them, forget what the "western" traditions are. You're a country generating millions of tech and science grads. be proud of yourself and make your own identity, do not settle for work horse positions in western corporations.

everybody knows americans are highly nationalist and often come across as arrogant, (humility is a virtue that apparently did not cross the borders of asia as I see it) but I really wish that indians do not become this way as their country is changing, and this moron CEO is a prime example of somebody who is full of it.
Indians would be foolish to simply take US' place at the top, if the world is to survive their cant be a number 1,2, and 3 place we will have to tear down boundaries instead and work together to solve tech and science problems faster.

global issues really cannot wait for india china or brazil to also go through a period of arrogance (although unlikely)... hopefully the future tech countries can form strong pacts and work together. by the way i think south korea is also missing from the list




Not a correct comment
By Prabhu on 6/22/2009 1:27:21 PM , Rating: 2
I work for HCL and I am also an Indian. I am now in US working in the high tech industry. In my work experience I have always admired the Americans with whom I had worked with. They had very good technical depth in whatever they were working on.

I also had worked with couple of grads who joined a startup, which I had an opportunity to work in and those guys were really smart and hard working.

The statement made by Mr.Vineet is not correct from the point of view of technical ability of the american grads.




By vectrav2 on 6/22/2009 5:11:13 PM , Rating: 2
Lack of wages is the problem.
A new graduate cannot expect the salary of a seasoned professional but some of the wages on offer are abysmal.
Why would one go to the trouble of a 4 year degree when one can only command 14-16 dollars per hour?
Our corporations are quite happy to take all the tax breaks given to them by us and then either employ cheap foreign labor here or outsource the jobs abroad, its reprehensible.
We should tax companies for every job for which they employ a foreigner or outsource abroad.




...
By GoodRevrnd on 6/22/2009 7:49:52 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't want to work for Baron Harkonen anyway.




A slap in the face
By James Wood Carter on 6/23/2009 8:39:07 PM , Rating: 2
Chinese products have been branded as bad low quality products, but i would argue that. Most chinese products are of decent quality. There is no doubt that Chinese manufacturing lacks quality control. However exports/ products made for other companies do have the much needed QC so i would argue that most of Chinese products are safe and of decent quality.
Its only a fraction of products that give the label ... Made in China a bad name. If you look hard enough almost every product from any country there are faulty, toxic, harmful products .. in my opinion Chinese products have been hyped my media.

I felt a sense of being slapped in the face .. when the Indian said American Grads are inferior. Maybe its Indians and there Indian cast system that makes them think in that way ???. The least of things ... its too much of a generalization. I can think of many cases where American grads out performs others.




By ssazsoft on 6/24/2009 2:37:02 AM , Rating: 2
I am not agree with CEO Vineet Nayar comments who worked in foreign and worked for foreign companies in life as well. I am 100 percent sure he learnt many things with Americans inside or outside the firm. Now giving comments after working as a outsourcing partner. Whatever Americians are expensive to teach etc etc i just know fact is fact that Americans are always one step ahead of all, Mr. Nayar or anyone else can't deny this. Computers, Research, Automobile till to space technology all knows Americans are top. Now please don't say in all Americans project Indains or any other nationality are leading hahaha.... I can just agree that people from different countires involve in their projetc but not like team leader, a senior scientist etc etc. Suppose if any one senior post from any country then he must thank to GOD that Americans care for talent and adoptibility element is inside them.This is the quality of Americans. I have live example of my friend working in Microsoft as a Software Engineer he is from Pakistan. He is working because of his skills and he thank to GOD but he belives that AMericans are very fast in technology and their research and senior technical people are excelent and 5 percent people from other nationality especially asians can think like them but ratio having huge difference.

Outsourcing is a trend and get work at low cost and have you ever think who is monitoring and instructing ofcourse Americans. I think be every company either indian or whatever should happy by getting outsource work from Americna firm. If they can't get happy and start criticize on Americnas graduates, professionals etc then i think they should open second Microsoft, second IBM, second ORACLE in their countries and leave American products. Why don't you launch your own operating system and harwares? so that you will get satisfied with your own skills and technology




By Boze on 6/24/2009 7:30:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
He elaborated that he views American tech grads as inferior to those from India, China, and Brazil as the Americans only want to "get rich" and dream up "the next big thing". He says students from countries like India, China, and Brazil are more willing to put the effort into "boring" details of tech process and methodology, such as ITIL, Six Sigma, etc.


This is exactly why America leads the technological sector of the planet. While the students he gets from India, China, and Brazil and more willing to work their poor little butts off for a paltry wage (compared to an American student) because that paltry wage is already far and away better than their current and prior standards of living, the American student wants to actually change the world and improve technology, instead of being some foreign executive's stepping stone to more money and influence.

That is why American business excels in so many different endeavors. While foreign businesses want mindless drones to shut up and do their work without a fuss, Americans dream, and we dream big, and we aren't satisfied until the entire world shares and appreciates our dream.

So keep working on the details, college graduates of other nations, and keep your opinions Mr. Indian CEO. While your company maintains its status quo, that American graduate you shunned will rise to prominence through his dreams.




By Kunikos on 6/26/2009 3:07:51 PM , Rating: 2
It's my experience that outsourced talent varies wildly in quality. Probably something to do with the fact that HR recruiters are technical idiots and will hire anyone with keywords on their resume.

Some contractors that I have dealt with that are on H1B are merely OK, but others are terrible and everything they touch has to be redone.

Also, nothing guarantees that your outsourced or contracted talent isn't going to just up and leave for a different company after you train them for the specifics of their job function. At least in the US people tend to stick around at companies that treat them decently (benefits, pay, etc) but I've seen others come and go all the time.




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