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A multi-year saga has moved one step close to a British hacker being moved to the United States to face trial

The Briton accused of the "biggest military hack of all time" against NASA and Pentagon networks a few years ago lost his appeal last week and will likely face trial in the United States.

Using a dial-up modem and software available to all computer users, Gary McKinnon, 43, accessed computer networks of the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Department of defense, along with NASA computers.  McKinnon admitted to hacking into the U.S. military computer networks, attempted extradition for more than three years, with his case going as high as the European Court of Human Rights.

McKinnon's reasoning for his computer network intrusions had been based on a personal "moral crusade" showing the United States government hid signs of alien life.

In 2002, a grand jury in Virginia indicted McKinnon on seven counts of computer-related offenses, though prosecutors understood it would be extremely difficult to have McKinnon extradited.  The admitted hacker's extradition was denied multiple times since then, as human rights issues were brought up each time.

The death blow came from the British High Court, which rejected arguments from McKinnon's attorneys, citing human rights issues related to extraditing a man with Asperger's Syndrome, which is a form of autism, for a non-violent offense.

U.S. government officials assured Minister for Equality Harriet Harman and other British officials that McKinnon would be looked after, even though McKinnon's attorneys were concerned he could be sentenced to Guantanamo Bay.  Harman, however, told the media he and others will look for McKinnon to serve his prison time, if convicted, in a UK jail.

Human rights campaigner Terry Waite called for the U.S. to drop all charges against McKinnon, as the case has received a large amount of interest with the human rights groups.

If convicted, McKinnon faces seven counts -- each with a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison -- along with a $250,000 fine.  When brought to the United States, it's expected he will immediately be brought to trial, though it's unknown how much jail time prosecutors hope he serves.



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Good, enough letting people off the hook
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 8:19:51 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
, citing human rights issues related to extraditing a man with Asperger's Syndrome

Geez its about time we start holding people accountable. Letting his off the hook for his Asperger's crap is like letting every unruly kid off the hook of punishment by trying to claim they have autism or ADD.

We already have enough people get lenient sentences by claiming the insanity plea. Well yeah, anyone to do crap like killing someone is obviously insane. And they should be disposed of.




RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By Amiga500 on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 8:24:54 AM , Rating: 5
Hacking into a hospital system, but not being able to steal patient data, doesn't make it harmless. The act in and of itself is illegal, and he should be put in jail.

Unless you're just an idiot trying to defend this guy because you think you're some underground hacking genius, you'd clearly be able to see that what he did is against the law - and even more than that, breaching networks of a government.


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By Amiga500 on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 8:39:23 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
No. But hacking into the hospital, and choosing to look at what the electric bill is, is.

You are a complete idiot. I hope someone comes into your house at midnight, through an open window that they don't have to break, walks around, and starts looking at the mail on your counter and going through your drawers. But don't call the cops Amiga, they aren't doing anything harmful. In fact, you should thank them when you buy a security system. Right? Moron.
quote:
So is driving 60mph in a 50 zone... should you go to jail for that too?

That's a traffic violation, not a criminal law.
quote:
I think that sentence unwittingly says an awful lot about you.

We've seen that from you as well. Do you have Asperger's too? Do you ever come out of your grandmothers basement?


By Mojo the Monkey on 8/3/2009 3:45:25 PM , Rating: 2
Traffic violations are part of the criminal law scheme, just with often less-severe punishments. His point remains valid, he was trying to say not all crimes merit imprisonment. Whether you agree with him or not on this issue is up to you.


By FITCamaro on 8/3/2009 3:04:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So is driving 60mph in a 50 zone... should you go to jail for that too?


Depending what state you live in, you are technically under arrest when you are given a ticket. You are just released on your own recognizance since it is impractical to haul every speeder to jail.


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By retrospooty on 8/3/2009 9:29:14 AM , Rating: 5
"What crime would you say he has committed? Justify it by showing the negative effects it has had. "

The US authorities claim he deleted critical files from operating systems, which shut down the US Army’s Military District of Washington network of 2,000 computers for 24 hours, as well as deleting US Navy Weapons logs, rendering a naval base's network of 300 computers inoperable after the September 11th terrorist attacks. They claim the cost of tracking and correcting the problems he caused was $700,000.

He didn't just break in and do nothing valiantly exposing a weakness to be fixed. He got in thier and started causing as much havoc as he could... Nail the bastard


By Mojo the Monkey on 8/3/2009 3:46:44 PM , Rating: 3
Makes you wonder what a government sponsored hack attack could do.... ON BROADBAND!! ;)


By invidious on 8/3/2009 10:02:57 AM , Rating: 3
So you are suggesting that it's ok for people to go on "moral crusades" because of all of the benificial side affects like forcing the government to spend more money on defense and security?


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By Helbore on 8/3/2009 11:22:33 AM , Rating: 5
He broke into a foreign nation's system in search of classified documents.

Now assuming the US doesn't actually hold data on the existence of alien life, tihs means he would have been scouring through files full of real, top-secret data. That's espionage. That's espionage by a British citizen towards her greatest ally.

The guy is a criminal and deserves to be punished. You don't get to walk free if you physically broke into a high-security zone and wandered about. You go to jail - because you knew you weren't supposed to be there beforehand and you've threatened a foreign power's national security.

I'm British and I say let the Americans have him. Pretty sure the Us has psychiatric prisons, so if he really is a mentally-ill criminal, they can lock him up in the appropriate prison.

It's not like we're shipping him off to Iran or something. This is a country we have an extradition treaty and strong diplomatic relations with.


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 11:29:02 AM , Rating: 2
Finally - someone that gets it. I'm glad to see that not everyone is a loon in Britain :)


By lco45 on 8/3/2009 9:59:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah he should go to jail, but 70 years seems a bit long.

I just can't get angry about someone hacking like this, because it's non-physical it doesn't seem as series as a physical attack, although it has the same potential for damage.

It's like you might be OK to take a pen home from work, but you would take 50 cents from the petty cash tin. Same damage, but one feels worse than the other.

Luke


By Helbore on 8/4/2009 2:53:09 PM , Rating: 2
Most of us aren't. It's just the ones who run the country!


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By UzairH on 8/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By intelpatriot on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
By AshT on 8/3/2009 2:12:58 PM , Rating: 1
wow tbh


By CSQuake on 8/3/2009 2:21:50 PM , Rating: 2
If the majority of Americans were anything like you then us Brits would have been the ones to do 9/11.

Get back under your stone you stupid cunt.

As for the hacker, it'll be interesting to see exactly what he did to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage. And if it is true that he caused so much damage and cost the agencies so much then lets hope the punishment fits the crime.


RE: Good, enough letting people off the hook
By FITCamaro on 8/3/2009 3:06:22 PM , Rating: 5
Jesus dude. You just made me look like a moderate.


By CSQuake on 8/4/2009 3:47:34 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry! Just cant believe the stupidity of some people.

If it was an American guy trying to hack the UK gov then all that would happen is there would be a few forums chatting about it, but it wouldn't go so far as declaring war and asking for the American guy to get raped or whatever. Dumb fucks.

I chalk this experience up the same as the racism geared towards the Chinese in one of the other threads.

I thought Americans wanted their image of the US to improve?! wtf tbh.

Oh and whats happened to the moderation on the forums?! Pro rape? Pro racism? Pro war? WTF.


By themaster08 on 8/3/2009 5:17:46 PM , Rating: 2
Come back when you spout your first pubic hair.


ADD
By melgross on 8/3/2009 12:19:30 PM , Rating: 2
My daughter has had ADD since she was a child. She's now almost 18, and is this summer in The University of The Arts, London (we're Americans living in New Nork). She will be going to school there for 4 years.

I don't find a diagnosis of his illness to be important in regards to his going to trial, or even prison if convicted.

This isn't major problem. He is a middle aged man now. If my daughter can manage very well on her own, so can he.

The fact that he may see aliens under his bed is no excuse. There are many people who believe this nonsense.

I'm happy the British are doing the right thing.




RE: ADD
By Xerstead on 8/3/2009 2:22:29 PM , Rating: 5
People with Asperger's can suffer from ADD but it is a different condition so comparisons like yours should not be made. The reference to him 'seeing aliens...' is insulting and your fantasy.

From the National Autistic Society web page:
quote:
People with Asperger syndrome may develop an intense, sometimes obsessive, interest in a hobby or collecting. Sometimes these interests are lifelong; in other cases, one interest is replaced by an unconnected interest. For example, a person with Asperger syndrome may focus on learning all there is to know about trains or computers. Some are exceptionally knowledgeable in their chosen field of interest.

And Wikipedia:
quote:
Asperger syndrome is an autism spectrum disorder, and people with it therefore show significant difficulties in social interaction, along with stereotypies and other restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests.

As a result of his condition he developed an obsessive hobby in looking for UFO's. It seems (from the UK media) there was no malicious intent to his quest and based on this the associations to terrorism are ridiculous. If data was corrupted/deleted then questions will neeed to be answered, including what security precautions were in place for this 'Top Secret' informaion.
If/when this gets to court his condition should be considered as him having 'diminished responsibility' and as a mitigating factor.


RE: ADD
By ncheese on 8/3/2009 6:31:22 PM , Rating: 2
An important thing to note for Gary McKinnon and the claims of Asperger's Syndrome, the general practice in the US is to allow the judicial system to determine if mental status is legitamate. I'm no lawyer, but it is generally up to a jury to determine if "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" is appropriate. This is not determined prior to the trial (such as Grand Jury) to determine if it should even go to trial.

Also, note that some/many criminals have some form of mental defect anyways (I would argue most serial killers are not psyhcologically "normal"). I believe the general requirement is does the person know what he did was wrong, and in knowing it was wrong, did it anyways. However, in cases such as a diagnosed kleptomaniac, a defendant could still be found guilty but a judge can remand the defendant to counseling in lieu of jail.


Hmmm
By damianrobertjones on 8/3/2009 10:20:56 AM , Rating: 3
Take the guy through the courts, set the punishment and then take him away to a government facility where they can give him a job. The guy probably has a talent that should be used to increase security for the U.S. systems.

Use the man, don't put him away.




RE: Hmmm
By vanka on 8/3/2009 12:32:30 PM , Rating: 2
Please go back and reread the article, here's the pertinent point:

quote:
Using a dial-up modem and software available to all computer users, Gary McKinnon, 43, accessed computer networks of the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Department of defense, along with NASA computers.


He did not discover any new security holes; his "talent" consists of downloading some "hacker software" and using it against unpatched/unsecured systems. As others have pointed out, his was not a mission of discovery - but one of mischief. His excuse of only looking for information on alien life sounds like an after-the-fact fabrication; it also does not explain why (if he was only looking for information) he felt it necessary to delete critical system files. Seems to me that if you're only interested in information you'd cover your tracks and make as little noise as possible; not try to bring down your victim's network. These actions appear to be done with willful criminal intent.

As for his "mental illness", I find it very interesting that it came to light only after he had lost a few appeals. I'm not denying that he may indeed suffer from Asperger's Syndrome (I'm not a psychologist and I didn't examine him); but his condition did not prevent him from committing the crime, nor did it cause him to commit the crime. But his condition is now preventing him from assuming responisibility for his actions and serving his time?


RE: Hmmm
By Ammohunt on 8/3/09, Rating: 0
Useless US Security
By Dingmatt on 8/4/2009 4:24:40 AM , Rating: 2
The facts of the matter is that many of the US's most confidential systems got hacked by a autistic guy with off the shelf software using a crappy internet connection.

How? Because the US computers hadn't had their default passwords changed; many people here would have been able to do the same thing.

The US departments are playing a blame game shifting all the heat from their pathetic security onto this hacker; i say they are lucky he wasn't a terrorist (thought there trying to make out like he is).

Now i've noticed that a number of other points have been left out of this article, such as while the British agencys were tracking him down they detected no malicious activities such as the deleting of files; only that he tended to leave messages on the computers alerting people to the hack.

Thats why he'd never get jailtime in the uk... also sorry fo those wanting blood but he'll never get extradited; the European Court will overide the British Courts decision.




RE: Useless US Security
By themaster08 on 8/4/2009 5:22:30 AM , Rating: 3
I agree.

The US military's claims of potential terrorism, destruction of files and systems I believe is just their justification of their utterly poor security.

As you pointed out, British authorities found no evidence of such crimes after investigation. It just seems as though everyone is disregarding this vital information.

The US military could easily alter their system and put the blame on Gary McKinnon.

I do believe that he should be sent to prison, but being put away for crimes he didn't commit as a justification of the US military's incompetence is something I have absolutely no tolerance for. Because they're the US military I guess that somehow makes them right and McKinnon wrong? Authorities can be just as, if not more corrupt than the criminal.

This man left them red in the face. They want to see him suffer. If that means lying to get what they want then they'll more than likely do so.

The person(s) responsible for this security charade should be held accountable and be put away also.


By VultureTX on 8/3/2009 9:54:19 AM , Rating: 2
For this guy they raised the specter of Gitmo. In the recent past is was usually the death penalty. If you check back , you will see mention of rampant hepatitis infections in the prisons as a concern. Which means that EU lawyers are good at trying to scare all who will listen.

So how is it like from the EU side, is their noticeable frustration that suspects take refuge in the US and don't get extradited? [neg points for those who rant about the ICC and bush/cheney, since nothing has been filed] I am talking about normal justice extradition for criminal acts.
I ask because I don't really see to find any pattern in Google on it. Yet articles about Mckinnon mention it.




He earned it
By knutjb on 8/3/2009 10:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
He broke the law, he gets his day in court to prove he didn't, prosecution gets to prove he did. If convicted he goes away.

He must be nervous because he has tried really hard to not go using some pretty ridiculous excuses and still the UK Gov is more than willing to let him go.

Why?

Because they have seen some evidence and are grateful he didn't attack them.

For those who like blaming victims, what if he had cracked your bank and erased your account? That is why hacking is a crime regardless of who the victim is. Your bank, your employer, your power grid, your (insert any infrastructure computer system here)... Hacking costs the victims money and the hacker has no right to enter no matter how big the hole.

Will the threat of jail stop them, not anymore than it prevents murderers from killing, but you don't let murderers continue to walk the streets. Laws are a response to what is going on in society and jail is there for a reason. Hacking is not a victimless crime.

Victims need to take IT security quite a bit more seriously, but how do you prevent all intrusions, this side of unplugging everything, you can't. Security in any organization takes a back seat until they get hacked. The US military has made some big changes but has a long way to go.




By Combatcolin on 8/4/2009 5:52:32 AM , Rating: 2
Would the French or Russians bow down to the Pentagon like this?

Gary Mckinnon is being thrown to the wolves via an unequal treaty in order to protect or "special relationship".

Utterly disgraceful behaviour by our government.




Pretty pathetic really...
By Amiga500 on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 8:28:02 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Yes, he has technically committed a crime, but no-one is any the worse off for it, indeed, a strong case could be made for the security systems having improved on the back of it!

You can make a strong case for someone installing a home security system because their house got broken into but no one harmed...but it still doesn't mean its right, and we should turn a blind eye.

The bottom line is this guy committed a crime - premeditated, caused monetary damage, and needs to be made an example of for all other private citizens around the world looking to do something to the US Military network, or any other country's government network.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By Amiga500 on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By mdogs444 on 8/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By Baltar on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By LumbergTech on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 8:59:35 AM , Rating: 3
So having kids and a family is somehow going to be Karma for me? I'll happily take that Karma.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By retrospooty on 8/3/2009 9:24:14 AM , Rating: 3
I think he meant "if the hacker's diagnosis of aspergers is even a real thing" - as in he is faking it to help avoid extradition. ???


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By themaster08 on 8/3/2009 11:03:32 AM , Rating: 3
Actually, it wasn't something that was just made up.

If you have any knowledge on the whole case you'll know that it was during a televised interview that a doctor caught on that he may have Aspergers. He was later tested and diagnosed.

Before that, not even the McKinnon's were aware of it.

The US military claim he deleted files and damaged computers. He denies such charges, but admits to hacking and acknowledges he was wrong.

By all means this man should go to jail, but I can't help but to think that the US military is exaggerating the entire case as a result of being an international embarassment when it comes to their security measures.

The man himself even claimed how easy it was to hack. He said there was barely any security measures in place.

With this I feel that the US military are red in the face, and want to really punish this man for making their security look like a mockery.

I just feel that when he is trialed, he will be sentenced for other things that he didn't do as a result.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By FITCamaro on 8/3/2009 3:09:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The man himself even claimed how easy it was to hack. He said there was barely any security measures in place.


Just because the car is unlocked and the keys are in it, doesn't make it ok.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By PrinceGaz on 8/3/2009 4:26:57 PM , Rating: 2
No, it certainly doesn't make it okay, especially as (to extend your analogy) the car in question belonged to a senior government official and contained a briefcase and laptop computer on the passenger seat full of documents clearly labelled "Top Secret".

Whoever left the car unlocked and the keys in full view deserves prison time just as much as McKinnon.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By croc on 8/3/2009 6:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
In Australia, if you leave your car unlocked and the keys in it and the car causes any damages or is used to commit a criminal offense, then you are indeed guilty of criminal negligence and may very well serve jail time. Then again, in Australia, if you are the security admin for a government system that gets hacked, you will serve jail time whether or not the hacker(s) get caught. Go ahead and put Mckinnon in jail. But he should be joined by the security admins that did not do their job properly


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By Spivonious on 8/3/2009 9:35:31 AM , Rating: 2
Definitely a real thing. One of my cousins has it.

That still doesn't excuse this guy's actions though. He committed a crime and he needs to face the consequences. The British court did the right thing by allowing his extradition. The U.S. court will decide how he is punished.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By harmaton on 8/3/2009 11:07:10 AM , Rating: 2
This costs the tax payers TONS of money. Let him rot in jail. Actually, I wish we could whip him like they do in Indonesia. I have absolutely no tolerance for people that think they are smarter than they really are.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By dhalilahma on 8/3/2009 11:14:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wish we could whip him like they do in Indonesia.


An autistic guy hacks government servers and everyone is angry at..... the autistic guy. Nice one. Way to let your elected leaders off the hook. Sure try to convict the guy, but don’t totally lose the point along the way. US IT security is a laugh a minute.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 11:19:04 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Way to let your elected leaders off the hook.

Our elected leaders don't know anything about health care, economics, or fiscal responsibility....what do you expect them to know about IT Security?

Just because someone in my neighborhood left their front door open, it doesn't give me the right to talk in and start searching around for stuff. Yes, the neighbor was not very smart - but they didn't do anything technically wrong.

An open door is not an invitation, I hope you realize that.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By mdogs444 on 8/3/2009 11:20:22 AM , Rating: 2
talk = walk.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By themaster08 on 8/4/2009 5:44:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, the neighbor was not very smart - but they didn't do anything technically wrong.

So what you're trying to say is the US military IT security section isn't very smart?

If that's the case it's time to hire more competent persons.

The difference being, breaking into your neighbour's home isn't a threat to national security.

I wish people would stop spouting these poor analogies. Military security systems are an entirely different ball game to breaking into somoenes home.

quote:
An open door is not an invitation, I hope you realize that.

Somehow, I doubt a terrorist would care.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By themaster08 on 8/4/2009 5:44:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, the neighbor was not very smart - but they didn't do anything technically wrong.

So what you're trying to say is the US military IT security section isn't very smart?

If that's the case it's time to hire more competent persons.

The difference being, breaking into your neighbour's home isn't a threat to national security.

I wish people would stop spouting these poor analogies. Military security systems are an entirely different ball game to breaking into somoenes home.

quote:
An open door is not an invitation, I hope you realize that.

Somehow, I doubt a terrorist would care.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By harmaton on 8/3/2009 12:36:15 PM , Rating: 2
Whip him and the IT workers that let it happen.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By CSQuake on 8/3/2009 2:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
Lets all whip you then. I'd get off on that for sure.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By harmaton on 8/4/2009 9:39:54 AM , Rating: 2
Word play. But a Context idiot for sure.


RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By Amiga500 on 8/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: Pretty pathetic really...
By nitrus on 8/3/2009 7:13:30 PM , Rating: 2
1) US GOVT network is messed up (i agree, with poster that said if you leave the door in your house unlocked does not mean someone can come in a mess with your stuff)
2) Do the crime do the time.
a) US IT manager of computers breached must be fired.
b) no matter what condition you have you must be punished in one form or another. example : what would you do if a mentally ill person went up to a cop and snatched his gun? say it's ok, he's disabled? if i wanted to attack the british govt, which i dont, why dont i go to a known autistic person's house and attack from his computer? that us boy in singapore should have gotten full punishment. our state dept stepped in and made their govt look weak. and that was for VANDALISM! we cant look weak for prosecution of cyber crimes.

another example is the journalists in N. korea. i dont think that they should be incarcerated for that long and their punishment does not fit the crime. but it serves them right, i would never go into a hot zone for ANY reason. they punished themselves for being stupid. what did they want? an emmy? a pulitzer? serves them right. if i go to iraq for work VOLUNTARILY and get killed whos fault is it? i assume its mine for wanting to make "easy" money.

while this brit is not financially motivated (that we know of), his own curiosity will be his own undoing.


haha
By intelpatriot on 8/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: haha
By CSQuake on 8/3/2009 2:25:52 PM , Rating: 1
You seem to find it easy to get offensive over this article and aim your hatred at the British as a whole but that just demonstrates your own fucking stupidity.

Dumb fuck.


RE: haha
By Mojo the Monkey on 8/3/2009 3:52:43 PM , Rating: 2
These posters are like the loonies on the streets. Just dont make eye contact... hopefully he'll just leave.


RE: haha
By themaster08 on 8/3/2009 5:38:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Here's hoping he get's prison raped, shanked

Or is this just you hoping so it satisfies your own sick fantasies?

What's wrong with you? Are you pissed off that someone actually showed the US military what an absolute joke their security is?

I don't condone Gary McKinnon's actions in the slightest, but your pissed off, derogatory attitude towards it makes me feel that your reaction is the epitomy of how the the U.S military themselves reacted.


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