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Fiat 500 at CES 2008  (Source: DailyTech/Brandon Hill)
Bosch Start-Stop system reduces fuel consumption and emissions by 8%

Reducing emissions and improving fuel economy is a huge area of investment for many carmakers. Most people equate this type of technology with hybrid or electric vehicles, but Bosch has a system that helps improve fuel economy and reduce emissions on diesel and gasoline motors as well.

The system is called the Bosch Stop-Start System. Bosch and Fiat announced recently that the Fiat 500 would use the systems and Bosch went so far as to claim that 50% of European vehicles would have the Stop-Start system by 2012.

Bosch has been making the system since 2007 and reports it has already delivered 500,000 of the special starters to BMW and Mini. In the Fiat 500, Bosch says the Stop-Start system would be available with the Dualogic automated manual transmission and the 1.2-liter engine. Fiat does say it plans to install the system on other vehicles as early as 2009.

The Fiat 500 will also use a Bosch engine control unit including Bosch software that analyzes the sensor data to start and stop the engine of the vehicle. Stefan Asenkerschbaumer, president of Bosch Starter Motors and Generators division said, "In 2008, roughly five percent of all new vehicles in Europe are equipped with a start/stop system. By 2012, we estimate this will be every second newly registered vehicle—most of them with Bosch technology."

The Bosch Stop-Start system works by turning the motor of the vehicle off when the vehicle is stationary. An example is if a driver pulled up to a stop light, the Stop-Start system would turn the motor off while at rest. When the driver put a foot on the clutch pedal to put the car back in gear, the engine would start back up.

Bosch says that the system reduces fuel consumption and CO2 emissions in the urban component of the New European Driving Cycle (NEDC) by up to 8%. To ensure that the starter lasts with the significantly increased stop/start cycles, critical components of the special starter have been strengthened. Bosch says it increased the service life of starters used in the Stop-Start system compared to a normal starter. The bearings in the new starter were strengthened, the commutator is strengthened, and the planetary gear was improved as well.

The system has other components including control software, a battery sensor, crankshaft sensor, and sensors at the pedals. A high-efficiency alternator and a deep-cycle electric battery are part of the system.

A few specifics on the system remain unclear. For instance, presumably the system won’t function if the driver doesn't place the vehicle in neutral. Bosch isn't specific on that aspect of the system. Another concern is how long the vehicle will be able to remain with the engine cut off in high power usage scenarios like summer with the air conditioner running or in winter with the heater on.

Bosch doesn’t specify if the system would automatically restart the vehicle if it were still stationary if the battery started to get too low on power. Presumably, the system would restart so the driver won’t be left with a dead battery.



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and what about other wear components?
By tastyratz on 12/5/2008 11:12:11 AM , Rating: 4
If the engine is constantly being started your looking at additional wear. While as a whole the fuel consumption is lowered, the engine requires more fuel during crank (which while it hasn't started will wash the rings of their oil somewhat. Also the engine will see oil pressure drop off. over 90% of lubrication related wear is during startup. hot starts are NOT as bad as cold starts, but bad nonetheless. This also starts the engine immediately prior to a load requirement on the non properly oiled engine (when clutch is depressed and they want to accelerate off the line)

While their gas mileage will go up, they will certainly see an increase in main bearing and piston ring sales! Deep cycle or not they will also blow through batteries like they are going out of style.

If it activates when the clutch is depressed, how many people will not find the lag of the engine start acceptable?




RE: and what about other wear components?
By KernD on 12/5/2008 11:20:35 AM , Rating: 2
This is also a really bad idea for cold places where the first start after the night, or work day is already tough on the batteries. I know the engine won't cool down much, but still it's asking for trouble, your car will get cold while the engine is off.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By Solandri on 12/5/2008 5:02:11 PM , Rating: 5
Starts are only bad because the engine parts aren't fully lubricated (oil has dripped down). If the engine is off for about a minute at a red light, the oil won't have dripped significantly, and the start will generate no more wear and tear than keeping it running. Well, maybe the starter motor will get more of a workout, but I assume they account for that in the car's design.

Cold engines are a problem because they're operating at a temperature that's outside the engine's designed operating parameters. So they result in incomplete combustion and wasted fuel. Since the whole point of this is that it saves fuel, it would seem the cooldown at a red light is not enough to waste more fuel than it saves.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By wookie1 on 12/5/2008 6:07:17 PM , Rating: 4
I think you're forgetting about the parts that require oil pressure to keep oil in place, such as main bearings. Residual oil on the bearings without oil pressure is not that helpful due to the loads.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By Samus on 12/6/2008 10:29:58 PM , Rating: 2
I drove a Mini with this system last time I was in London and the start is reasonably efficient. It starts the engine back up in 180 degrese (half a crank cycle) which takes a few tenths of a second, faster than you depress the clutch pedal.

However, it was pretty cold there in November and I wasn't very satisfied with the lack of heat after 20 seconds of the engine being off...for example when I was waiting for a train or a long traffic signal. I also thought it was annoying the headlights dimmed considerably when the vehicle was off. I doubt my Mini had a deep cycle battery or efficient alternator like they are saying it should, because I wouldn't have noticed this otherwise.

On a side note, I was able to trick the system by keeping the car in gear and holding the clutch in. The engine would never turn off. I don't normally drive like this, though. I try to relax at a stop and sometimes even pull the parking brake just to give my feet a rest. London's a bitch to drive in.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By KernD on 12/7/2008 10:43:01 PM , Rating: 3
It's not only the oil that's thicker when it's cold. Here in Canada we get many days with less than -30 degree Celsius, at those temperature the battery itself is less powerful, so at a trafic light how will it do all you need AND restart the enigne. If you have a long way to go in the city, it will drain the battery, and your not talking about a mini's engine here, but a full size V4.


By Fireshade on 12/9/2008 6:50:32 AM , Rating: 3
That's why the Stop-start system has -amongst others- a battery-sensor that goes with some clever electronics logic. It is perfectly possible for Bosch to program measures in diverse situations. They have a solid reputation in low-level car-electronics (ignition, injection, ABS, etc.).


RE: and what about other wear components?
By trisct on 12/5/2008 11:33:12 AM , Rating: 2
Look at the type of car they are targeting - 1.2 liter engine subcompact cars. Those engines spin up in less than a second anyway if they're warm. The Bosch system will work similarly to the stop-start on something like a Toyota Prius, it will have access to battery voltage and engine temperature sensors to avoid low temperature starts and low battery voltage. Note also that they are selling this along with their engine controller system, which already has all that info.

As far as people wanting to accelerate off the line they usually don't wait until the light turns green to depress the clutch and put the car in gear, I would think.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By Souka on 12/5/08, Rating: -1
By 306maxi on 12/5/2008 12:39:16 PM , Rating: 5
Funny thing is when I am in gear at the lights in my car and I take my foot of the clutch my car goes forward too.....

Ultimately the person driving the car is responsible for what it does and the car reacts no differently in this way than a normal car with a manual transmission.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By bigboxes on 12/6/2008 12:03:51 AM , Rating: 2
Who puts their car in neutral at a light? I have an automatic, but in the past when I drove a manual I always left the clutch in and shifted into first after stopping.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By EricMartello on 12/6/2008 12:51:12 AM , Rating: 5
Why would you sit at a red light with your foot on the clutch, putting wear on the throw-out bearing? Leave it in neutral until the light is about to turn green - cleverly gauged by glancing at the perpendicular lights and waiting for them to turn yellow.


By feraltoad on 12/6/2008 9:53:32 PM , Rating: 3
I just start reading at red lights until people start honking and cheering for me to go. They're always so enthusiastic.


By Davelo on 12/7/2008 12:38:30 AM , Rating: 2
Yep. In Germany the light turns yellow just before turning green to tell drivers to put the car back in gear and get ready to go.


By jRaskell on 12/9/2008 12:34:48 PM , Rating: 3
I've driven several hundred thousands miles over the years with a number of vehicles I've owned, and never had a throw-bearing failure. I've also never talked to anybody who has personally experienced a throw-out bearing failure in their vehicle either.

The truth is, cycling any sort of metal spring is as fatiguing, if not moreso than just leaving it compressed for the brief periods of time we're talking about here.

Do you also heavily utilize engine braking in an effort to reduce wear on your brake system?


RE: and what about other wear components?
By walk2k on 12/5/2008 12:40:07 PM , Rating: 3
But how will the douches in riced-out Civics rev their engines at me??


By OAKside24 on 12/5/2008 11:02:48 PM , Rating: 3
By keeping clutch pressed, not shifting to neutral. Or when engine stop technology dominates the world by blaring their latest "engine rev simulation" track.


By FITCamaro on 12/5/2008 1:32:24 PM , Rating: 3
Well put. I don't think this would work well in a big engine either.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By TomZ on 12/5/2008 1:44:05 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
If the engine is constantly being started your looking at additional wear. While as a whole the fuel consumption is lowered, the engine requires ...

Do you think that Bosch hasn't considered all these kinds of design challenges? Maybe you could offer your consulting services to them, LOL.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By tastyratz on 12/5/2008 2:42:10 PM , Rating: 2
good point.
Someone invented it, clearly there will be no valid alternative opinions/considerations/arguments. Shame on me for questioning them with my feeble questions.

Did you see anything mentioned anywhere regarding things other than' the starter?
Its not going to cause an engine to wear through these expensive things in 5k miles - but it WILL significantly increase their need. The only way to resolve the oil pressure would be an oil accumulator with an electrically triggered solenoid based on TACH signal presence.

Combine that with the extra money for the starter and battery, plus new replacement schedule - I bet consumers really start seeing diminishing returns.

but who cares whats in a landfill if we save the earth with a little less oil?


RE: and what about other wear components?
By TomZ on 12/5/2008 3:04:39 PM , Rating: 3
My point is that Bosch is a company full of career experts who have worked on these types of automotive systems for decades. Heck, Bosch invented a lot of the technology that is commonly used in vehicles today. So I think they are probably aware of the challenges and how to overcome them.

Actually, if you Google around a bit, a lot of the issues brought up by posters here have already been addressed by Bosch in their design. They're just not reported in this DT article.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By Alexvrb on 12/5/2008 6:25:17 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah except Bosch isn't a car manufacturer. They don't care *that* much about the durability of the engines in question. They made a solution to boost fuel economy, fix its major and obvious issues (super beefy starter, sensors/controller, deep cycle battery that is also suited to constant starts) and leave it up to the manufacturers to figure out the "petty stuff".

Bosch profits from selling all these components. So in a way, as long as the components in the system aren't breaking prematurely, they benefit from selling them initially, and from selling eventual replacements. A lot of parts for German cars are expensive enough to begin with, I can't imagine how much that super starter of theirs is going to cost to replace.


By Darkskypoet on 12/6/2008 9:37:14 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah, and Bosch's largest customers are Car Manufacturers. So Yes, they do care about things like Engine Longevity... Because the car manufacturers that have been extending their power train warranties like crazy (now 100,000 miles / 160, 000 Km for Gm, and others) aren't going to want to induce expensive fleet wide engine problems. Such problems that would make their cars and brand look pretty bad.

And since this isn't a last night invention, either, I am sure they would have process, and we established design practices, that they would supply to the firms in question to minimize engine wear, etc. Bet you the little fiat engine got upgraded, or was a recent design, lately.


By walk2k on 12/5/2008 2:48:44 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah you better show them this blog, they maybe don't even know about engine wear!

ANYway I the problem with wear is that the oil settles in the pan. I wonder if they use some kind of oil pump to keep the oil flowing (and hot) while the engine is stopped in traffic.


RE: and what about other wear components?
By RoberTx on 12/6/2008 4:10:51 AM , Rating: 2
I work in industrial maintenance as an electronics tech and electrician. I'm not a big fan of Bosch electrical products. I'm not a big fan of any German electrical products. Germans can complicate the hell out of a simple concept.


By RoberTx on 12/6/2008 4:13:23 AM , Rating: 2
Indramat is even worse if not the worst.


By bugzrrad on 12/5/2008 1:47:05 PM , Rating: 2
By NovoRei on 12/6/2008 12:01:40 AM , Rating: 3
I already drove a car with start-stop.

Its at least 3 times faster than normal start-up. It dont work when the engine is cold.


By carl0ski on 12/6/2008 12:40:40 AM , Rating: 2
a pretty old fashion viewpoint.

This was always true with engines however there are lots of marketing gimmick advances in Oil viscosity and magnetic oils that delay the rate of oil drip into the sump.

My only concern would be the initial drain on the battery of restarting an engine but that is probably what this bosch tool resolves, maybe large capacitor is constantly used in restarts opposed to drain on the battery?
but hell look at the engines this is being implemented with
1.8 litre fiat probably turnover that a dozen times on one battery


RE: and what about other wear components?
By Screwballl on 12/6/2008 9:45:17 AM , Rating: 2
2 points:

1)
quote:
additional wear

agreed, that is something I suspect they are looking into, with newer systems and a small block like this, I would assume a sort of hybrid system would be a bit more useful that the explained start-stop system. Use battery powered motors up to a certain speed then kick on the engine. A hybrid drive system similar to the Prius. Which takes me to the second point:

2) I suspect this is something that may do decent but nowhere close to the 50% they stated. Maybe 5%... People are getting lazier all the time with all these extra gadgets and radios and cell phones and whatever else, which is why it is almost impossible to find a manual/stick shift in any American vehicle sold since 2000. Sure there are a few and almost always a sports car, but not normal every day vehicles. I remember when the mileage standards always had 2 sets, one for automatic, and another for the manual which was always 2-5 mpg higher in the city.

I see this as a product doomed to "also ran" status in a few years (by 2012). People are getting used to automated systems, by 2012 we will be that much closer to cars that drive themselves.


By Screwballl on 12/6/2008 10:23:46 AM , Rating: 2
bah lack of edit sucks...

the point in #1 was meant to say something like using battery power in 1st gear and then when it it put into 2nd the engine starts.


By 16nm on 12/9/2008 1:38:51 PM , Rating: 2
It sounds like you are saying the engineers have some design challenges before them. They better get cracking!


ummmmm
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 12:35:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Another concern is how long the vehicle will be able to remain with the engine cut off in high power usage scenarios like summer with the air conditioner
In almost all cars, the engine needs to be on for the air conditioner to work... otherwise you are just blowing air. In most cases it is the compressor in a car is driven directly from the engine, usually from a belt. While some cars do use an electric motor for this, most don't.(and even if they are electric, most designs don't draw directly from the battery, but still require extra draw from the alternator, which obviously requires the engine to be on.)




RE: ummmmm
By JonnyDough on 12/5/2008 4:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
I can give up a tiny bit of comfort to save the environment and lower my travel costs. They're called WINDOWS. Besides, didn't you hear? The earth is experiencing global cooling!

In all seriousness though, having HEAT in the winter is far more important than having air conditioning in the summer. I would imagine that there is a solution to both the heating and cooling problems.


RE: ummmmm
By JonnyDough on 12/5/2008 4:10:42 PM , Rating: 2
*before anyone argues it with "but I live in Death Valley and I could DIE!" crap -

Allow me to just reiterate that you can DRINK WATER and OPEN WINDOWS in hot weather, but in cold weather you can't really wear a fresh roadkill to stay warm. I mean, you could but eventually the roadkill freezes too.

Another idea is to snuggle up bare with your mother on the way to her gyno appointment. Somehow though, I would imagine many of us would prefer to pass on that one. Except for Bob. Bob, you're just sick.


RE: ummmmm
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 4:25:45 PM , Rating: 2
My point is air conditioning should have no effect on this system in terms of battery use when the engine is off.


RE: ummmmm
By wookie1 on 12/5/2008 6:14:48 PM , Rating: 2
Good for you. If I wanted to sweat through the summer I never would've sold my '63 Ford F-100 (seriously, I really liked it). On a newer car, I do not see why I should sweat out a summer. Forget about death valley, in the Phoenix area we hit 115-120F.

How does this car "save the environment"? It will presumably have a bit more hydrocarbons and CO since it is starting up so often. I think that they're only focusing on CO2 when they mention reduced emissions. CO2 isn't pollution, just plant food.


RE: ummmmm
By Spuke on 12/5/2008 6:54:47 PM , Rating: 1
I seriously doubt the car will shut off with the A/C on. All it takes is for some old person to die at a traffic light from heat exhaustion or stroke and the automakers (and Bosch) will be sued into oblivion. More than likely it will only shut off when no accessories are running.


RE: ummmmm
By JonnyDough on 12/6/2008 7:32:11 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, because old people venturing out in the cold in a vehicle they chose to purchase is the direct fault of automakers for not installing a heater in the car. I'm sure that would hold up in court. It's also the fault of my home builder that my cat dies in a house fire because he didn't build foresee the fire enough to me a fire-proof cat room. Darn him for not taking the precaution. I should sue him.

Then there's that time I got in a car accident and there were no pillows along the road...the road commission is sooo gonna burn for that one.


RE: ummmmm
By Spuke on 12/8/2008 4:03:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm sure that would hold up in court.
I guess you don't get out much. Dumber stuff than what I suggested happens in the courts everyday.


RE: ummmmm
By bigboxes on 12/6/2008 12:09:18 AM , Rating: 2
JonnyDough obviously doesn't live in Texas. Up north the heater is obviously more important, but here in Texas I could live without the heat, but not the A/C.


RE: ummmmm
By JonnyDough on 12/6/2008 7:36:58 PM , Rating: 2
The fact is that we could both live without a heater/AC.

It's a matter of finding alternative solutions. While these solutions may not be ideal or as practical, they are there. I can wrap up in a warm blanket and drive slower. You could ride a motorcycle or drive a convertible maybe. If your car breaks down the AC isn't going to save you from heat stroke anyway. Temperate climates like CA or Tennessee are more ideal for living than the extreme temps of the north and south. Moving is also an alternative solution. But if we all live in these ideal climates, we'll be stacked on top of each other like Hong Kong family apartments. Which is why I often think that there are already too many people.


By Chudilo on 12/5/2008 11:27:00 AM , Rating: 2
This system would make sense if it used an electric motor to get the car off the a full stop.
Electric motors are great for torque but lack in horse power. ICE engines are good for horse power but not torque at low RPMs. So if this thing is strong enough to get the car from dead stop (while the gas engine is starting) and can work as a regenerative breaking system(as any DC motor) then this could really be something.




By polaris2k4 on 12/5/2008 12:06:44 PM , Rating: 2
Haha, so...you mean if it was a hybrid system?


By twhittet on 12/5/2008 12:23:13 PM , Rating: 2
Lol - yeah....um......I really don't think the Volt needs this system...at all. If anything, don't they already employ this technique in "mild" hybrids?


By Spuke on 12/5/2008 12:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
Hybrids already have this feature.


By 306maxi on 12/5/2008 12:40:23 PM , Rating: 1
This system starts the car with the starter motor as per normal. This is not some sort of hybrid system.


By Hare on 12/5/2008 3:12:16 PM , Rating: 1
Everything is relative.


By croc on 12/5/2008 5:45:45 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, just to ask a question as you seem to have all of the answers... Just what is the torque in your Holden / GM frankenstein'd GTO from 0 to 500 RPM??? (oh... thanks for helping out our export trade, BTW)


By Spuke on 12/5/2008 6:49:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just what is the torque in your Holden / GM frankenstein'd GTO from 0 to 500 RPM???
What is the big deal about having massive amounts of torque at 500 rpm? Low end torque monster gas engines can't put the power down with today's tires at slightly higher rpms. What makes you think an electric car will magically be able to put all of this power down? Especially when ALL of the early electric cars will be shod with high mileage, skinny, low rolling resistance tires? LOL!


By spread on 12/5/2008 6:02:22 PM , Rating: 2
Internal Combustion Engine Engine


Not putting car in neutral at red lights ...
By psychobriggsy on 12/5/2008 12:21:00 PM , Rating: 1
Then there are the people who keep the car in first at red lights, and the clutch depressed. Not for any speeding off the line reason, just that putting the car into first as you slow down for the light is sensible in case the lights change as you're stopping.

Otherwise it is a nice idea, especially where the red light cycle is quite long.

Personally I have no idea how to drive an automatic, having learned in and driven manuals all my life. Oh wait, I did use an automatic go-kart once.




By porkpie on 12/5/2008 12:26:29 PM , Rating: 4
Being snobbish about driving a manual has to be one of the more idiotic accomplishments of mankind.


RE: Not putting car in neutral at red lights ...
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 1:00:54 PM , Rating: 2
Why would you ride the clutch to slow down in first? Most standard cars I've driven will stall out if you are not depressing the clutch or accelerating while in first... the exception.. vdub's.


RE: Not putting car in neutral at red lights ...
By Screwballl on 12/7/2008 12:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why would you ride the clutch to slow down in first?


You must not have been taught properly then... depending on the speed, you can shift down one or two gears and ride the clutch just enough to help slow down for less wear on the brakes, usually at lower speeds this means first gear.

I was taught by my father, a former commercial truck driver (some semi trucks but mostly panel or open side trucks). He knew all the tricks for any weather condition and taught me from the time I was 12 to 15. I got my license at age 14 (which was legal at that time in South Dakota) and have always preferred a manual/stick shift ever since.

Sadly stick shifts are going the way of the dodo bird except in big trucks and sport cars.


By Spuke on 12/8/2008 4:06:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You must not have been taught properly then... depending on the speed, you can shift down one or two gears and ride the clutch just enough to help slow down for less wear on the brakes
All you're doing is generating excess heat on your clutch by riding it. Besides, brake pads are WAY cheaper than clutch repairs.


I hope you can bypass it...
By brandonicus on 12/5/2008 12:28:43 PM , Rating: 2
It sounds like a good idea (assuming there isn't much of a delay in the system), but it would be nice to be able to disable it if you were having car problems and couldn't afford to turn off your engine. You know, when you have to take your car into the shop to get it fixed because it is having trouble starting...I don't know a lot about cars so this would be important to me.




Welcome to 5+yrs ago?
By Ender42 on 12/6/2008 7:39:17 AM , Rating: 2
So Bosch is claiming the almost the same stuff it did in an almost identical article written in Dec 2007. Except now it's an 8% increase instead of 5%, and 50% market penetration by 2012 instead of 30%.

And before you GM/American Auto Industry haters get all excited. I take it most people here either have no clue or completely forgot that GM offered a Start/Stop system on their full sized pickups from 2003-2006 when it was canned due to basically lack of consumer interest (They only sold a few thousand units in 3yrs).

Original article from Dec 1 2007: http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_microhybrid_segm...




Old news?
By McDragon on 12/6/2008 8:05:15 AM , Rating: 2
I don't see the big deal about this, other manufacturors (like WV) have used this technology for more than a decade...And it works perfectly.
The first I tried was a Lupo 3L in '98...That car got around 80mpg and was very comfy - even for holiday trips.




By scrapsma54 on 12/8/2008 5:43:35 PM , Rating: 2
Stop and go engines isnt something new. Mazda created an engine that relies on direct injection to get stop and go done. All the starter does in the process is make sure the correct positioning of the pistons.




Borsch Stop-start system
By JonIscream on 12/9/2008 9:42:08 AM , Rating: 2
Hybrids like the Prius have proven that this technology works perfectly with small displacement engines. As most of Europes engines are of smaller displacement than their American counterparts, this will become a standard feature for them. My GM 6.2L high performance engine gets 26 highway mpg at 65 mph. That drops to 12 mpg around town. I can't imagine the starter motor and electrical system that would be needed for a start-stop system for that engine. If gas gets back up around $4/gal it might actually pay for itself. What we really need is for NASA to go ahead and prove that "global climate change" is not man made and for the government to allow us to exploit our own energy resources. The foolishness that is spouted in the media about the US only having 3% of the worlds oil reserves is only true if you think that you invented the internet. If you include oil shale the US has 94% of the worlds oil reserves. Drill here, drill now would mean that no American would need to work for the next 100 years. We can't have that.




TRAFFIC JAMS
By cosmin haraga on 12/10/2008 2:50:03 AM , Rating: 2
what about traffic jams, when you crawl ahead the length of a car every half a minute or more?
the wear and tear on your engine will be enormous, not to mention that their statistics are made on long roads and highways with 4-5 stops tops.
not everybody lives in germany next to the autoban.
try a busy crowded city like bucharest, you would have 120 maybe more stops /starts a day! the engine would die in a few month and your fuel consumption would be astronomic.
any computer eqipped car shows the few seconds to start an engine work at 22-26l regime far more than idle speed. now imagine you turn 60% of your idle speed consumption drive time to 24l consumption and see whether this system is for you or not.
this system is nearly as idiotic as 1.2 l cars.
fiat 500? i'm 195 cm and 105kg, like most nords are, how am I going to feet a three friends in your bikes on four wheels craps?
even frenchmen are pretty big and fat and they are close enough to Italy for car designers to see.
stop making midget/toy cars, replace the engine to energy ,but make them strong and sturdy




Eww!!
By reredrum on 12/11/2008 3:33:21 PM , Rating: 2
This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever read on this website. This is a monumental waste of money and resources. We're not going to keep using gasoline or diesel fuel for much longer so this really isn't necessary. These cars are gonna blow through starters, engines, and batteries like crazy. What happens when people press the clutch only to find that the sensor is bad on their clutch. Now they have to pay hundreds of dollars to have their car towed to a garage to replace a $2 part! I predict that anyone who buys this is going to regret it...




Pity.
By Hieyeck on 12/5/08, Rating: -1
RE: Pity.
By DarkHero on 12/5/2008 11:10:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No one in North America knows how to drive manual anyways.


I've never owned and automatic and if at all possible never will.


RE: Pity.
By FITCamaro on 12/5/2008 1:36:07 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. My first two cars were autos but that was because they were 80s Camaros where sticks weren't offered with certain engines. Only reason I'll ever buy an automatic is when I've got a family and have to get a larger vehicle which isn't offered in a stick. Like a smaller SUV such as the Vue. Assuming they're still around...by then liberals might have gotten the CAFE standards to 50 mpg and thus completely eliminated anything but tiny hybrids.


RE: Pity.
By JonnyDough on 12/5/2008 4:02:45 PM , Rating: 2
I learned to drive in a driver's ed little stick shift Mercury. I'm tall and constantly stalled the car. I was eating my knees. My drivers Ed teacher blew. I swore my first car wouldn't be a stick.

It wasn't. I bought a 5-speed Jeep Comanche pickup truck instead. Every car I've owned since then has been an automatic, because they don't make as many clutch cars. Still, I know how to drive a stick and I frequently miss it. You just have more control, and it makes you feel young and alive. Then again, a fly-through-the-gears motorcycle is great for living out teenage dreams too.


RE: Pity.
By ChronoReverse on 12/5/2008 11:11:16 AM , Rating: 2
Is this supposed to be some sort of joke?


RE: Pity.
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/5/2008 11:13:25 AM , Rating: 3
I think he referencing the fact that something like 70% (could be higher) of new autos sold in the U.S. are automatics.


RE: Pity.
By arazok on 12/5/2008 12:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
…and virtually no cars in Europe are.

It costs an extra $1-2,000 for an automatic transmission. Because everyone is taxed to the brink of poverty, nobody can afford it.


RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: Pity.
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 1:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
Assuming people will have the money / job/ a house left to be found and taxed..


RE: Pity.
By arazok on 12/5/2008 1:25:39 PM , Rating: 2
If the Democrats impoverish you through higher taxes, the republicans will do with tax cuts funded by deficits.

Until the Republicans return to the mantra of smaller government and fiscal responsibility, they are both poor choices.


RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/5/2008 1:55:50 PM , Rating: 1
Bush might have made the government larger, sure. But Democrats make governments far more INVASIVE. And thats a fact.

quote:
the republicans will do with tax cuts funded by deficits.


And tax cuts hurts us how exactly ??

I find it funny that the same people who refuse to believe " trickle down " is even possible, firmly cling to the belief that somehow wealth can trickle UP.

But Obama says so, and we can't very well argue with the Second Coming now can we ?


RE: Pity.
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 2:16:09 PM , Rating: 1
Give the man a chance to govern! Its like being a poor loser is genetically imprinted into republicans. Its been a month, get over yourself!


RE: Pity.
By nycromes on 12/5/2008 2:24:59 PM , Rating: 2
ya know... its been four years and libs are still complaining about Bush, saying he stole the election. I don't think it has to do with being Republican or Democrat that one is a sore loser.


RE: Pity.
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 3:45:41 PM , Rating: 2
The difference being, democrats complained about something that already happened, republicans are complaining about something before it happens...

Give Obama a chance to govern before making negative statements such as reclaimer's...

If the most powerful country in the world can give a former coke addict a chance, I think Obama deserves one.


RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/5/2008 10:55:17 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I think Obama deserves one.


I think we have the right to see his birth certificate first.

quote:
Give Obama a chance to govern before making negative statements such as reclaimer's...


Birth certificate. Then we'll talk.


RE: Pity.
By axias41 on 12/6/2008 11:15:26 AM , Rating: 2
Your birth certificate?


RE: Pity.
By sinful on 12/7/2008 3:46:32 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/8/2008 12:57:45 PM , Rating: 2
That website is nothing but a Obama propaganda machine.

The state of Hawaii has SEALED his birth certificate. Obama has not requested, or provided, his birth certificate. And ONLY Obama can request it. And the state said he hasn't. So where is that website getting a copy ?

And why in the hell did his own grandmother say, on record, that he was born at the Coast Provincial hospital, in Kenya ?

Nice photoshop job by the website, but I think YOU lose.


RE: Pity.
By arazok on 12/5/08, Rating: 0
RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/5/2008 10:52:25 PM , Rating: 2
The dirty little secret about tax cuts is that nobody actually cuts taxes. A tax " cut ", in government terms, simply means a halt in the INCREASE in taxes. Because politicians, after all, believe all of your money is theirs anyway.

When Bush's freeze on tax increases expires, which it will because Obama certainly won't renew them, I hope people like you change their tune.


RE: Pity.
By sinful on 12/7/2008 3:43:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I find it funny that the same people who refuse to believe " trickle down " is even possible, firmly cling to the belief that somehow wealth can trickle UP.


Trickle down economics has been proven to be an utter failure - it doesn't work, period, and there's no sound logical reason why it would either.

The idea that rich people are going to spontaneoulsy hire people just because they can afford to is idiotic. They hire people because they have WORK that needs to be done, which is created by DEMAND.
What creates demand? Consumers with money that can afford those products.

Trickle-up economics is the radical notion that if you give someone poor $500, they're going to spend it - all of it, and the money eventually makes its way into the hands of the rich people that make the products that poor person is going to be buying.

Trickle-down economics is the notion that if you give a rich person $500, maybe, just maybe, if you're really lucky - they'll give it to someone poorer, for no apparent reason.

Let's put it this way: Under McCain, he would have given the $1000 dollars I'd get to someone like Bill Gates.
Great, so Bill Gates would get $1000. Maybe somehow, just somehow, I would benefit from him being richer.

On the other hand, under Obama I'll now have $1000 (Thanks "Lower-taxes-for-the-middle-class"!).
What can I do with a $1000? Maybe I'll buy a new PC. Hrm, now how would Bill Gates benefit from that? Oh, gee, maybe it's because I'm buying software from him.

The difference is under Obama, my money is going to Dell, Intel, Nvidia, Seagate, Microsoft, etc, etc, etc and it's going to keeping the people working there having a job.
Under McCain's plan, you're just relying on the hope that Bill Gates is going to kindly give that money to the less fortunate.

Trickle-down economics is voodoo economics for the uneducated;
Trickle-up economics has been proven to work.


RE: Pity.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/8/2008 1:08:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Trickle down economics has been proven to be an utter failure - it doesn't work, period, and there's no sound logical reason why it would either.


Riiiight. Only the best economies we have had. Thats no proof though, right.

quote:
Trickle-up economics is the radical notion that if you give someone poor $500, they're going to spend it - all of it, and the money eventually makes its way into the hands of the rich people that make the products that poor person is going to be buying.


... sigh.

The person is STILL poor though. You haven't done anything. So lets say you GIVE 30 million poor people $500 bucks. Then what ? What have you done ? And who's money did you take to give them the $500 ?

You CANNOT make poor people rich by making rich people poor. Thats just idiotic economics. How is that going to work ?

quote:
Trickle-down economics is the notion that if you give a rich person $500,


WRONG. You are not not not not not not not NOT NOOOOT GIVING him $500 bucks. You are allowing him to KEEP $500 more of his OWN money that he has already earned !

quote:
just maybe, if you're really lucky - they'll give it to someone poorer, for no apparent reason.


NO ! Again, NO. Trickle down isn't about rich or poor. Its not about GIVING poor people anything. Why are you so hung up on the idea that the rich MUST be tied in to the "poor" ?

quote:
On the other hand, under Obama I'll now have $1000


Ha ! No, you wont. Its amazing people like you actually believe this.

quote:
Trickle-up economics has been proven to work.


When ?? Under the Carter and Johnson administrations, where " trickle up " was in full play, we had the WORSE economies in our nations history.


RE: Pity.
By sinful on 12/7/2008 3:20:51 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Well with Barrack in charge we can look forward to that too in the upcoming years.


Don't worry, if Palin gets elected in 2012 everyone will starve to death under Republican leadership - no worries about the future then!


RE: Pity.
By Penti on 12/5/2008 2:20:54 PM , Rating: 2
It's more economical to drive a manual too.

A manual use much less fuel then a automatic. So theres no reason to drive a automatic.


RE: Pity.
By TomZ on 12/5/2008 3:19:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So theres no reason to drive a automatic.

Automatics are more convenient. Being economical is not the sole consideration for many people.


RE: Pity.
By omnicronx on 12/5/2008 4:33:25 PM , Rating: 1
Manuals are just more efficient than an automatic transmission, this being said, it does not always mean that you will use far less fuel than automatics. Automatics for example will only rev so high before changing gears, if you are a manual driver that likes to push your engine, then chances are you are getting no better mileage than the exact same automatic car.

Also manuals are usually geared to the low end, my protege 5 for example gets better city mileage than an automatic, but far worse highway mileage because its only a 5-speed and sits at around 3k RPM going only 100km/h(65mph).


RE: Pity.
By CheesePoofs on 12/5/2008 11:12:42 AM , Rating: 2
I do :)


RE: Pity.
By Tsuwamono on 12/5/2008 11:23:08 AM , Rating: 2
I've never driven an automatic that i owned.. I drove my dads automatic but i kept getting confused because my left foot got bored... lol.


RE: Pity.
By ZaethDekar on 12/5/2008 12:26:37 PM , Rating: 2
Funny story about that.

I have always driven a manual for my personal car. While mine was getting work done (Got hit in the rear in traffic) I drove my moms automatic Buick. The problem I had at first was my foot was bored, well a car slammed on their brake in front of me and out of instinct I went to put the clutch in, and my foot hit the E-Brake. Needless to say I stopped but there was a nice clean spot where the tires slid.


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