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High-def hardware sales during the first two weeks of January  (Source: Digital Bits)

High-def hardware sales during December and January  (Source: Digital Bits)
Blu-ray Disc charges ahead in sales charts following Warner Bros. announcement

Consumers who were on the fence regarding which high-definition format they should support may have been swayed by Warner Bros.’ decision to side with Blu-ray Disc.

Data from research firm NPD Group, as displayed by Digital Bits, show Blu-ray Disc taking the lion’s share of the high-definition hardware sales. Sale throughout December saw nearly 40 percent of players be HD DVD, eventually climbing in the first week of January to nearly 49 percent.

In the week immediately following Warner’s pro-Blu-ray Disc announcement, Blu-ray Disc player sales took over the charts with nearly 93 percent of hardware sales. It’s important to note that the sales breakdown between hardware of the two formats do not include the sales of PlayStation 3 or the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on drive.

A similar trend appeared in software sales following CES 2008. According to numbers from Nielsen, Blu-ray Disc sales were 85 percent of the high-definition split, which represented the largest gulf yet between the two formats.

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% of what?
By jkresh on 1/24/2008 12:14:41 AM , Rating: 1
Having >90% of sales for a week is big but it depends on how many drives were sold that week. Warner going blueray definitely had an impact and it may be that blueray will win (though I still think hybrid players will end up being a least a short term solution), but without having total sales numbers the percentages are somewhat meaning less. I am also curious to see what the numbers are now that Toshiba has dropped the price so much on their drives and what kind of impact that has had.




RE: % of what?
By Gio6518 on 1/24/2008 12:21:12 AM , Rating: 4
hmmmmmmmmmmmm it is showing their impact of the new pricing

lots of stores have been marking HD-DVD players down with the new price along with a clearance sign, not planning to replenish their stock.

and with BLU-RAY discs sales jumping from a 2-3 to 1 lead to the current 5-6 to 1 lead, I don't see anymore future to HD-DVD


RE: % of what?
By jpeyton on 1/24/2008 8:23:16 PM , Rating: 5
Game over.

I own two HD DVD players and even I know there are only so many weeks of Blu-Ray hardware/software domination that Toshiba/Paramount/Universal can take before they submit.

HD DVD will be a footnote in the pages of history by the end of 2008. Guaranteed.


RE: % of what?
By ChristopherO on 1/24/2008 12:46:13 AM , Rating: 3
I for one ran out and bought a Samsung BD-UP5000 that week. I was unsure of Blu Ray's future (I wanted to know which way WB would break since their decision to go exclusive to one of the formats was inevitable).

I'm sure there were a lot of other die-hard A/V fans in the same position. Once the initial rush is over the numbers will probably get a bit closer. HD DVD saw a similar spike after Paramount moved over.

As for universal players the Samsung BD-UP5500 is on its way (May 2008)! That will be the first entry-level combo player and should street for less than $500. That's almost a bargain considering entry level Blu players are 300-400.

I love the 5000. I can insert any media and it doesn't care... That's the way home theater should be! At this point I couldn't care less if either format wins since I'll be able to handle both.

I'd rather both formats stick around then condemn some group of supporters to own a dead format.


RE: % of what?
By Gio6518 on 1/24/2008 1:40:13 AM , Rating: 2
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/23/the-samsung-b...

The Samsung BD-UP5000 to be discontinued in May
Posted Jan 23rd 2008 12:05PM by Ben Drawbaugh
Filed under: Blu-ray, HD DVD, Samsung

While we've become accustomed to Blu-ray players being released every six months, it's a little ridiculous when we're forced to wait for a new player longer than it's on the market. Eventually we expect the cycle to slow down -- like when BD Live players are out for example -- and many believed that the Samsung BD-UP5000 could be one of those players based on promises when announced. Once you have an Ethernet port for internet content, REON video processing, internal decoding and bitstream support for every codec, discrete analog output, as well as HDMI 1.3, what else could possibly warrant a mid year revamp? We suspect the problem is that the player isn't delivering, and on top of that, we don't think it's Samsung's fault. You see, just like the LG BH200, the BD-UP5000 is based on Broadcom's Reference design BCM97440, and the word on the street is that it isn't ever going to deliver. So it'd make sense that Sammy would change the platform for one that's actually able to get the job done. So yeah, this Broadcom bit is just speculation, but we did contact the outfit to figure out what the deal was, and while it was very responsive at first, as soon as we asked about the troubles with the BCM97400, it must'a lost our email address (or maybe its servers have been down for a week). The good news is that Samsung doesn't see the BD-UP5500 as a replacement, and promises a suitable replacement for the high-end dual-format customer in the second half of '08.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 2:15:00 AM , Rating: 2
You probably won't see many dual-format players anymore because of these broadcom issues.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By ChristopherO on 1/24/2008 3:52:29 AM , Rating: 2
The Samsung 5000 is fine. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to worry about an Endgadget link for a device I own, that works fine for what I use it for.

Maybe it's not doing profile 2.0, but I wouldn't use those features anyway. It's handling my audio just fine and HDi works just as well as the Toshiba HD DVD player I replaced. After the latest firmware update all the discs I insert seem to be fine.

The 5500 is also rumored to be firmware compatible with the 5000... Which will ensure that the player gets supported for an adequate amount of time.

The 6500 (replacement for the 5000) comes out for Christmas of 2008. I wasn't going to wait that long since I could in theory have waited forever for something better.


RE: % of what?
By Belard on 1/24/2008 4:40:05 AM , Rating: 2
With about 100,000 HD-DVD players in the wild... don't have hopes for a dual format player.

If there were... millions of HD-DVD players, then more likly. There is way to few people with HD-DVD, and many of those people are not going to be buying more movies.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 8:55:02 AM , Rating: 3
Well, you won't see me buying a Blu-Ray player until they release one that works with the latest BR Spec >.< Sorry but not gonna purchase one just to find out later I have to replace it to be compatable with the latest BR spec. GG Moving specifications.


RE: % of what?
By Shoal07 on 1/24/2008 9:21:10 AM , Rating: 2
PS3?

No matter how much people don't want to count it, it is well regarded as the best Bluray player out there. The options for output are enough for any AV nut (speaking as one) and it is 2.0 compliant. I, as many others, bought this as our standalone blueray players based on the fact it was (and is) the best (not to mention after 1.6 or something it went from a good upconverter to an amazing one). Iceing on the cake is that it's a media center as good as any other, to include the 360, for streaming content from ANY windows machine (my WHS, MCE Laptop, or XP Pro boxes). And it's not a bitch to connect to them either (unlike the 360).

Oh, it plays games too, but I don't really use it for that, I have a 360.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 9:35:38 AM , Rating: 1
No thanks, I will wait for a real stand alone player. PS3 is a console.


RE: % of what?
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 9:52:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
PS3 is a console.


It's both... worried about profile updates and new fluff features? Get a PS3. The end, Kenobi. If you want a rectangle you don't reject the square because it's a rectangle, too. If you want to say something doesn't exist or isn't possible based on weird personal categorical preferences, that's your prerogative, but you should have noted this in your first post instead of making people reply to correct you as though they were supposed to know.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 10:07:42 AM , Rating: 1
No, you just have your classifications backwards. So let's have a brief lesson.

PS3 is a game console. It possesses the capability to play Blu-Ray movies, but that is not the primary function (as much as Sony might want you to believe otherwise).

X360 is a game console. It possesses the capability to play HD DVD movies when an add-on drive is added.

iPhone is a cell phone. It possesses the capability to play music. It's primary function is to make and recieve calls.

End lesson. (Moral- Integration is not always a good thing)

Just because something "can" do something, does not mean it is an ideal device. PS3 does not have a standard IR remote nor can I get it to work with my existing remote. Don't bother mentioning the Bluetooth remote that can be purchased separately as this won't turn the PS3 on when it's in hibernate or (preferably) turned off when not in use. Thanks but no thanks. I will hold out for a BR 2.0 spec player from a reputable manufacturer with a track record for not screwing consumers at every corner (Read: Not Sony).


RE: % of what?
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 11:10:53 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
No, you just have your classifications backwards. So let's have a brief lesson.

PS3 is a game console. It possesses the capability to play Blu-Ray movies, but that is not the primary function (as much as Sony might want you to believe otherwise).


The PS3 is marketed as a console with blu-ray playback being one of its features. Because that feature is marketed as a secondary function does not automatically imply inferiority to a device which has it as its primary. And if you buy it as a blu-ray player and use it solely for such, it becomes a player to you. It doesn't matter what it was marketed as or what its market classification is. If I buy a baseball bat to use as a club, and it's just as good or better of a club as clubs marketed as clubs, then it makes no difference what it was sold as BECAUSE I AM USING IT AS A CLUB. WHY DO YOU HAVE A BLOG ON THIS SITE??

Let me correct your first post:

"Well, you won't see me buying a Blu-Ray player until they release one that works with the latest BR Spec." <-Incorrect

"Yeah, I personally care very much about PiP and java mini games, and am very picky about remotes, so I would need a player that has both an IR remote and upgradeable profiles and is not classified foremost as a console since I also have a hangup with players possessing other functions, so until that happens I'm not going to be buying a blu-ray player." <-Correct


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: % of what?
By Hawkido on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: % of what?
By murphyslabrat on 1/24/2008 8:13:33 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that Ben over there just can't be satisfied. So what if you get a below average-featured player (no remote, etc., where you have to walk over and power it on) with a free next-generation gaming console, it's just not good enough.


RE: % of what?
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 12:43:19 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
PS3 is a game console. It possesses the capability to play Blu-Ray movies, but that is not the primary function (as much as Sony might want you to believe otherwise).


The PS3 was originally designed as a game console, but was transformed into a Media Center with Gaming capabilities. I have one and I can say with certanty I use the Media Center functions 80% over the gaming functions (apart from lack of titles, I am a PC guy...)

quote:
Don't bother mentioning the Bluetooth remote that can be purchased separately as this won't turn the PS3 on when it's in hibernate or (preferably) turned off when not in use.


Sorry, I have to correct you here. You obviously don't research before you speak/type.

The BT Remote acts as a controller for the system (Controller 7 of 7) and is married with whatever system you pair it with (just like BT is supposed to). The range on it is exceptional and is far superior than an IR remote that you need line-of-sight- to use. And because it acts as a Controller, it will turn on the unit from the standby state.

The PS3 is faster, sharper, and all-around the best choice in a BD-player. Just because it has gaming capabilities doesn't make it any less of a system.

Also, You have the iPhone backwards. Its a iPod Touch that can make phone calls, and its terrible at it...

So in short, research before you speak ill of anything. You could stand to look less like an idiot in front of others if you do.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 12:58:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does it power the unit on? No. Thanks for playing.


Again, yes...it does.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 5:18:12 PM , Rating: 3
No, and no.

With the PS3 remote, it is bluetooth, so you will only be able to (fully) control the PS3 with it.

With a universal remote properly programmed (there are two steps involved I think, requiring a workaround), you will be able to control normal DVD/BD playback functions, but will not be able to turn the console on.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By illhuntudown on 1/24/2008 11:06:20 PM , Rating: 1
Great post.

Would like to add for those PS3 fan boys:

I purchased a PS3 - 80 gig system this past Xmas. Why? Because I already had the 360 w/ HD-DVD and the Wii and the kids already had their own computers .... so basically it was the only thing left to buy. So if the movie companies are basing sales of these players, well, perhaps it's not a smart move. Moreover, consider that Sony makes the fastest Blu-Ray player (PS3) since it can load the JAVA the fastest and that Sony owns movie studios, too. When HD-DVD dies, then there's no competition. And again, the PS3 is priced below other standalone Blu-Ray players, so competing companies will go by the wayside, too.

Sony will own the market.

Drink the kool-aid.

So, will the price of HD movies ever fall? Who knows.

And from my own perspective having owned all three (360, Wii, PS3), the Wii comes in first, 360 second, and PS3 dead last. Most horrific user interface of the three. Defend it if you want, I can't.


RE: % of what?
By KentState on 1/25/2008 1:51:41 PM , Rating: 1
Why do you keep saying that the BT remote can not power the system on or off? I know for a fact that it does as both mine, my brother, and my parents can both turn it on and off.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 12:52:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
PS3 does not have a standard IR remote nor can I get it to work with my existing remote.


If you have a universal remote, yes you can.

quote:
Don't bother mentioning the Bluetooth remote that can be purchased separately as this won't turn the PS3 on when it's in hibernate


Yes it can.

quote:
I will hold out for a BR 2.0 spec player from a reputable manufacturer with a track record for not screwing consumers at every corner (Read: Not Sony).


If Sony doesn't qualify, then you'll probably be waiting forever.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By Ricky Williams on 1/24/2008 1:31:35 PM , Rating: 3
Do you ever get sick of being wrong about everything and sounding like the world's stupidest fanboy/Sony hater?


RE: % of what?
By Vanilla Thunder on 1/24/2008 5:18:36 PM , Rating: 2
I think the answer to your question is quite obvious. Read his posts.

V.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 6:12:23 PM , Rating: 1
I completely agree with you that Sony isn't the be all, end all. Panasonic and Pioneer make very good quality products, along with Sony.

However, my post was more in the context of you assuming that Sony is out to "screw the customer at every corner." That is simply no more true for Sony than any other company, including panasonic, pioneer, apple, toshiba and microsoft. In other words, these companies aren't out to screw the customer, they're out to make money. Some just have better marketing departments than others, and all have made mistakes before.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 1:12:43 PM , Rating: 2
The PS3 BT remote can turn the system on and off. You use the PS button in the middle of the remote to turn on the system, and when you finish, you hold the PS button for 1 sec until the menu comes that says "Turn the system off".

I own it, I know what I have. It may not be able to control a TV set or a stereo amp set, but if you already have an "all in one" remote for all your other HT equip, having the PS3 BT remote until Logitech comes out with a BT Universal (which I am waiting for) is good for me for now.

And I have a 47" 1080p (native 1920x1080, not a fake 720p) LCD. I am just missing the stereo system to push out the 7.1 audio, but for now, in a small 600 sq.ft. apartment, the 2ch speakers are loud enough...


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: % of what?
By Belard on 1/24/2008 10:07:44 AM , Rating: 3
Do you own a car?

If its just a car, does that mean you bought one that doesn't come with a stereo/CD player since its not a REAL stereo?

How about your cell phone? Use it more than just making calls? Like texting, camera, calander?

PS3 is a good BluRay player, its not noisy like the 360. You can buy a "standard" remote to use it like a player. And it saves another INPUT on the TV.

But of course if you just want a player, no games (Daily tech is kind of a gaming site) well... oh well..


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 10:12:47 AM , Rating: 1
DT is a Science/Tech site.


RE: % of what?
By psypher on 1/24/2008 11:19:27 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
DT is a Science/Tech site.

that does an awful lot of reporting on games.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 12:45:27 PM , Rating: 1
Games are tech?


RE: % of what?
By Chaser on 1/24/2008 12:47:52 PM , Rating: 2
And as always your informative, unbiased, professional posts bring great credit to it as well.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:00:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And as always your informative, unbiased, professional posts bring great credit to it as well.

Thanks for the sarcasm. In the comments section, we are allowed to voice opinions. We are generally only picky about the articles themselves, but we are still only human beings (Read: Fallible).


RE: % of what?
By dblind1 on 1/24/2008 11:21:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
PS3 is a good BluRay player, its not noisy like the 360. You can buy a "standard" remote to use it like a player. And it saves another INPUT on the TV.

Ok, this shows your age and your preferences toward entertainment. First of all the "standard" remote is not so standard. you cannot use a universal remote to control the PS3 nor is the PS3 remote able to control TVs or AV receivers . For you, that might not be a problem, but for people with Home Theater setups it can be yet another headache. One of my friends got a PS3 to be both a console and a player. While it does have good quality, his new logitech harmony remote cannot control the PS3 so he has to have 2 remotes to watch a movie (one for volume one for player functions. While this is not a problem for tech savy guys that read this website, it might be a huge problem for their wifes, babysitters, kids, grandparents, etc. that come over for a visit or to watch the kids. Throw an AV receiver in the mix and stuff gets real fun. Right now, I have to have a page of instructions by the remotes when the grandparents come over to babysit in case they want to watch a dvd instead of satellite. Give me one remote that gives the user one button access to change to other devices and that keeps everyone happy. One remote to rule them all!

As far as the quiet part... you play COD4 and then just want to watch a movie? The PS3 fan is VERY loud and in a home entertainment cabinet the fans could spin up while you are just watch a movie! This degrades from the whole movie experience. I will wait for a nice cheap stand alone unit that is meant for watching movies that doesn't need a 200 watts o power to power it. I also have enough heat in my entertainment center with a 700 watt AV Receiver that I don't need another overpowered device to really get things cooking.

and BTW, I'm not a fan boy of either format. I want both to live. I just want both to be cheap or have combo players that are actually cheaper than buying seperate players. After all, DVD+- thing has tought us that multiple formats can coexist. The added competition makes them work harder. Do you think we would have a Bluray 2.0 spec if they weren't trashed because HDDVD menus 'beat them hands down'? That is just one example of what the competition between the two formats has inspired.

Think about it!


RE: % of what?
By BPB on 1/24/2008 12:30:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok, this shows your age and your preferences toward entertainment. First of all the "standard" remote is not so standard. you cannot use a universal remote to control the PS3 nor is the PS3 remote able to control TVs or AV receivers .
I don't agree. I got the remote below from Amazon, and then set my Harmony Remote for Xbox 360 to work as a Blu Wave. The only thing it won't do is turn the player on, and maybe off as well. Other than that, which, come on, is not a big deal, it runs my PS3, and runs it fine. I figure sooner or later Logitech adds bluetooth to the Harmony line.

http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3-Blu-Wave-Remot...


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 12:56:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
you cannot use a universal remote to control the PS3


Yes, you can.

quote:
While it does have good quality, his new logitech harmony remote cannot control the PS3


Yes, it can.

quote:
The PS3 fan is VERY loud


This is subjective and has been debunked time and time again. It has been loud for some folks. And there are a ton of people who never hear the PS3 during a movie, myself being one of them. The only time my fan kicks into overdrive is during F@H, and that's only when there's no sound in the place.

Let's stay factual on this site, please.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, you can.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/...

I just checked hoping that you were on to something, and my Harmony remote would work, but alas 'tis false. The guys over on the Playstation forums have stated clearly that the two will not work. Heck even Sony's Universal Remotes don't work with the PS3.

quote:
Let's stay factual on this site, please.

Likewise. Reference your stance helps to prove your point, or in this case disprove.


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 1:31:57 PM , Rating: 2
That's a slightly dated forum post. PS3 can work with a Harmony remote now, but you need to buy an IR add on to plug into the USB port. Still a minor aggravation, but something I'm assuming people who use consoles to play movies are more willing to accept.


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 1:33:29 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, it still doesn't address the on/off part.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:35:27 PM , Rating: 2
:(


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:34:22 PM , Rating: 2
Got a link to this addon? I haven't been able to find one.


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 2:11:22 PM , Rating: 2
It was mentioned in a post just above.

http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3-Blu-Wave-Remot...


RE: % of what?
By Oscarine on 1/24/2008 2:12:23 PM , Rating: 2
There is no first party add-on AFAIK, well unless you count finding the orginal PS/2 Remote Addon.

Otherwise you have to buy say.. the Nyko remote and use the IR sensor from that.

I have both the IR sensor for my Harmony and the Bluetooth remote. You can turn the system off/on with the Bluetooth unit.

I suppose its possible if Sony ever bothered to release a IR version of there own they could patch the system to turn off/on via IR. Then again I wouldn't hold my breath.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 5:26:38 PM , Rating: 2
The playstation.com forums probably weren't the best place to check. Not a requirement to be tech-savvy at those places.

Anyway, here are a couple links to the process: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=76...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12...

Also, other than popular Logitech and Harmony remotes, the first method is compatible with Prontos and Home Theatre Master remotes.

Alas, turning the console "on" via the Home button is still the last thing wanting.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By kmmatney on 1/24/2008 5:50:38 PM , Rating: 2
I have a cheapo Sony Universal remote I bought from Walmart that controls all of my stuff (I don't have a PS3, though). You would think that it wouldn't be too hard for Sony to add a universal IR remote to their bluetooth remote, solving this issue.

Personally, I don't see the big deal with 2 remotes...


RE: % of what?
By TimTheEnchanter25 on 1/24/2008 10:33:28 AM , Rating: 4
I've never used a stand alone Blu-Ray player, but I've had a PS3 for about 9 months.

I just borrowed my parents' Toshibia HD-A30 to watch a couple HD-DVD exclusives. And I can't believe how much it sucks. The first time I turned it on, I thought I messed up a cable or a setting, because I didn't have a picture. But no, it's boot up time is just rediclously slow. It just sits there with nothing on the screen for what seems like forever. The PS3 starts up almost instantally. If I bought one of these, I would've returned it after the first movie.

I decided to update the firmware for them, since they don't have an easy way to hook it up at their house, but the stupid thing locked up on me when it tried to install it.

I can't imagine that the stand alone Blu-Ray players are any less wimpy than the HD-DVD players. That's a nice side effect of the PS3 having a CPU that is powerfull enough for gaming, it makes it way more powerfull for playing movies. I can't imagine any reason that someone that has even a small intrest in gaming would buy a stand alone player instead of a PS3.

The only negative I see is that Logitech doesn't make a Harmony remote with bluetooth yet. But, it isn't that difficult to use the controller as a remote. Most movies skip the menu and go straight to playing. You can cycle through the audio settings from the pop up menu (triangle), hit start to pause / play, and circle to quit playback.


RE: % of what?
By Targon on 1/24/2008 11:43:50 AM , Rating: 2
The real problem is, as you mentioned, the startup and a lack of display on that A30. My cable box takes several minutes with a blue screen while it boots up(after losing power), which is only slightly better than the lack of signal you saw with the A30.

The A30 may still end up being a better player for the majority of the home theater market though. I would NEVER buy a console just for an accessory, and most people out there probably feel the same way. Then again, most people still don't have a HD capable TV, so won't care about the issue in the first place.


RE: % of what?
By enlil242 on 1/24/2008 10:00:28 AM , Rating: 3
Here, here! I have an HD-DVD addon for my 360, and just picked up a PS3 for BluRay. Was going to try and get one of the $399 standalones and read some reviews and got the PS3. I'll say it is nice. Nicer than I thought and a better player than the 360 add-on. (As far as noise)

I certainaly didn't buy it for games, although that is a nice "bonus" feature, and I do like streaming what videos I have on my home comupter, as well as images and mp3s (Although I have a squeezebox for that.) The PS3 does that better than I had thought.

Yes the PS3 is a console, but it feels like a component ... Plus, it's the fastest BluRay player on the market. No load times. You insert the disc and it starts playing. Oh, and I so missed having a slot loading optical drive!


RE: % of what?
By theflux on 1/24/2008 12:31:59 PM , Rating: 2
You're just struggling to find a reason not to buy into Blu-ray, and enjoying trolling while you do so.


RE: % of what?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/24/2008 11:07:11 AM , Rating: 2
> "With about 100,000 HD-DVD players in the wild..."

Eh? Walmart sold more than that in the month of November alone. The last figure I heard for total HD-DVD players was ~500K, and that's aa couple months out of date.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 11:40:13 AM , Rating: 2
I was hearing over 1 million stand alone players for both BR and HD before the holiday season.


RE: % of what?
By ChristopherO on 1/24/2008 3:03:46 PM , Rating: 2
There are over one million HD DVD players alone.

Last year Toshiba released a press statement that they had sold 750,000. This was before last holiday season where some stores had bargain basement prices (and not including the Xbox device).

I think the Xbox add-on total is hovering around 400,000.

The estimated HD DVD installed base is currently about 1.5M players.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 5:34:06 PM , Rating: 2
The article that referenced 750,000 units sold did include the 360 add-on.

quote:
NOV. 27 | Following heavy Black Friday discounting, HD DVD players have collectively sold more than 750,000 units, according to the North American HD DVD Promotional Group.

That figure encompasses lifetime sales of both Toshiba stand-alone models and Xbox 360 HD DVD players.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6505633.htm...

Also, one month ago 360 add-on sales were around 269,000.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Tr...

Lastly, I believe 360 add-ons still comprise 3% of the total 360 user base (NA only) as of last week, but I can't find the article for that.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By griffynz on 1/24/2008 10:42:53 PM , Rating: 2
100,000 ? Toshiba sold 90,000 in one week end when they had the big price drop.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/07/90-000-hd-dvd...

'As of January 08 Toshiba has announced that close to 1 million dedicated HD DVD players have been sold.'

Maybe you missed a zero?
Add another 1 as I brought a player last week, and 21 movies.


RE: % of what?
By therealnickdanger on 1/24/2008 8:07:53 AM , Rating: 2
From what I've been reading, however, the 5500 and 6500 will not have as many connections - specifically the lovely 7-channel analog audio outputs. Those are sweet.


RE: % of what?
By wallijonn on 1/24/2008 9:43:40 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I'm not sure why I'm supposed to worry about an Endgadget link for a device I own, that works fine for what I use it for.


Because any BD drive that isn't "BD Live " capable is basically already obsolete if you feel that you may want to use the internet to download any extras.

When looking at movie cases at the store you'll have to buy the "BD Plus" (IIRC) discs instead of the movies marked "BD Live." If you insert a BD Live disc into your player it may not play at all.

You get to feel just like all us XP gamers who see "Vista" on the front of a game box and won't even bother picking it up to read the description on the back. Or all the people who bought "Vista ready" PCs and then found it was anything but.

I would expect rental companies not to carry the 'BD Live' discs.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 6:17:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you insert a BD Live disc into your player it may not play at all.


Please stop lying to people. This is simply not true. The profile 1.1 discs with full PiP have already played on non-profile 1.1 players completely fine. There is no reason to assume profile 2.0 won't be the same.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 2:13:22 AM , Rating: 5
Total Sales Numbers:

Week Ending 1/5 (Before Warner switch):
Blu-ray Disc - 15,257 units
HD-DVD - 14,558 units

Week Ending 1/12 (After Warner switch):
Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
HD-DVD - 1,758 units

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35749/118/

So you can see, blu-ray sales went up roughly 40% while HD-DVD went down roughly 85%. Sales volumes were down on the week because HD DVD sales went down much further than Blu-ray sales shot up. We won't have the hardware figures for the week of the Toshiba fire-sale for another week or so. And it still requires somebody to leak them to us.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By xphile on 1/24/2008 4:15:09 AM , Rating: 5
From what I see your numbers are spot on and a 5 to 10 second analysis says it all. There really isn't that much more on the actual specifics of the subject (Who might win) to comment on. Hardware models, prices, yadda yadda - all that stuff is now short term pub talk versus the real story.

The only realistic saviour for HD-DVD now is the impossibly juicy headline:

"Bill Gates Surprises World Markets With SONY Takeover Bid."

I suppose somewhere, sometime, stranger things have happened but I don't think even MS has quite enough cash in the apocalyptic post-Vista climate to do that. (And yes folks I am joking here anyway).

It should also be STRONGLY recognised that DVD was launched in 1996 and took until June 2003 to become more popular than VHS in the USA. And that was WITH the truly massive change in both the standard video format size from VHS cassette to cd sized "higher quality video discs" and the format quality that simply blew VHS away.

Neither 2nd gen HD format "blows away" DVD as far as the average consumer is concerned, and more importantly the existing DVD format is JUST settling in in absolute terms as the current defacto standard worldwide. It sure as heck hasn't been sitting around 20 plus years waiting patiently for someone to get around to kicking its butt.

You might be racing out to buy all your new movies in HD disc format, and God bless you, the studios all love you, especially in the months of the lesser advertising dollar strike action, but for many years to come no matter what you think and no matter what you say, whether you are technically right or not, it will not change the fact that we will all still be in the minority and even a prevailing HD disc format will still be a long time loser in sales to DVD before it ever takes over in volume or price.

Still, let's just hope BR get their act together and in the next gen or two provide all the features HD-DVD already had or were promising that Sony didn't. It would be REALLY sad if the consumer is the end loser YET AGAIN to the lesser format.

But in the end it's time to face facts here, it's taken 30 years but Sony have their Beta revenge.


RE: % of what?
By Serafina on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By Proteusza on 1/24/2008 5:26:18 AM , Rating: 1
Blu Ray may have more space and a higher bit rate, but that isnt all that makes a format good.

It also has less features, more draconian copy protection and region encoding. And triple layer HD DVDs can store 51GB.

I also will mourn the loss of HD DVD, because undoubtedly Sony will take a percentage of each disc sold - not good for the consumer.


RE: % of what?
By Ricky Williams on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By bluewall21 on 1/24/2008 7:17:18 AM , Rating: 2
HD DVD is not directly controlled by Toshiba, it's a product of the DVD Forum, the same group that officially created the DVD.


RE: % of what?
By Proteusza on 1/24/2008 8:24:12 AM , Rating: 1
Sigh.... Is this village idiot day?

HD DVD is controlled by the DVD forum, the same people behind the original DVD format. Sony defected from the group to form Blu Ray - look on wikipedia.

And with HD DVD able to store 51 GBs per disc, and Blu Ray 50, what do you think this means? Hint: 51 is a bigger number than 50.

And have you forgotten that HD DVD players can be upgraded because they all include an ethernet port, but not all Blu Ray players? Consequently early Blu Ray players cant play new discs, but as old HD DVD drives can be upgraded, they can play any HD DVD.

Keep your fanboyism to yourself, and do some research before you post unfounded facts.


RE: % of what?
By Etsp on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By FITCamaro on 1/24/2008 8:50:13 AM , Rating: 3
In 2012, new movie discs will require HDCP in order to get the high definition image due to the Image Constraint Token(ICT). It is currently deactivated. So all first gen Blu-ray players lacking an ethernet port will not be able to be updated and have to be replaced for the people to be able to watch their high def movies in high definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Constraint_Toke...

quote:
do some research before you post unfounded facts.


RE: % of what?
By ArneBjarne on 1/24/2008 11:59:57 AM , Rating: 2
Care to name a HD DVD/Blu-ray player that has the hardware for HDCP but not the software? If you can't, then firmware updates are obviously not going to change a thing when it comes to ICT.

The people that are going to run into problems with ICT, are people with older TVs/projectors that do not have any inputs with HDCP support. I'm sure your not seriously suggesting that Toshiba can do anything to help these people by sending out a firmware update to HD DVD players, right?

And ofcourse you can always update any player, regardless of whether or not it is connected to the internet. They all read discs, so hint hint, read the data from a disc.


RE: % of what?
By FITCamaro on 1/24/2008 2:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
To reply to both posts so far. Did you even read the article? Yes the real issue is the TVs. But after 2012 the players will need an update for discs that require there to be a secured link between the player and the monitor. All HD-DVD players have a network port to receive this update over. All Blu-ray players do not.

Yes updates via disc are an option but come on, honestly, how many people are going to want to have to wait for Sony, Samsung, etc to send them a disc so they can watch their new movie they just bought?

The network port should have been part of the standard from the beginning in blu-ray as it was with HD-DVD. But it wasn't complete when they released it. They only released it to keep up with HD-DVD.


RE: % of what?
By solidst8 on 1/24/2008 4:30:56 PM , Rating: 2
Would it be impossible to rule-out the ability to have an update loaded from a disc if it doesn't have a network port?


RE: % of what?
By ArneBjarne on 1/24/2008 5:13:02 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. The players will not need an update to play ICT titles via HDCP connections, they already do that now.

The reason you don't need to use a HDCP connection yet is because the studios have generally decided to use a grace period, where they will not enable ICT on their titles. (HINT: it has to do with disc NOT the player).

However, Constatine Film from Germany has already used it on HD DVD, supposedly by mistake, and ofcourse the title(s) still work flawlessly when using an HDCP connection. No surprise to anyone but you apparently, because that is the whole blody point of ICT!!!

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1323/residentevil_d... :

quote:
Important Notice: This German 'Resident Evil' disc is one of the first HD DVDs to be flagged with an Image Constraint Token. If your HD DVD player is connected by HDMI to your display, there should be no issue in viewing the movie at its full 1080p resolution. Unfortunately, viewers connected by Component Video will find the image downconverted to 480p Standard Definition. This is extremely disappointing, to say the least.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 5:49:44 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I did read the article. After this post I decided to re-read the article for specifics of what you're detailing. There is nothing in the article about players needing an update for discs that require a secured link.

FYI, the very first disc with ICT enabled on it came in the form of the HD DVD import version of Resident Evil (see review of it here: http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/1323/residentevil_d... ). I haven't heard of any players needing to be updated to play it, and notice that Josh Zyber doesn't mention anything about it in his review:

quote:
Important Notice: This German 'Resident Evil' disc is one of the first HD DVDs to be flagged with an Image Constraint Token. If your HD DVD player is connected by HDMI to your display, there should be no issue in viewing the movie at its full 1080p resolution. Unfortunately, viewers connected by Component Video will find the image downconverted to 480p Standard Definition. This is extremely disappointing, to say the least.


As far as I know, there is nothing about HDCP in regards to the ICT that requires any updates. Again, the hardware is either HDCP compliant or it isn't. Discs that generally have required updates have been for software issues (I.E.: Java, or combo disc issues). And in the likelihood that it is needed, it will probably be provided on the disc in question, like some BDs/HD DVDs already have.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 12:49:13 PM , Rating: 2
I can't believe a post like this gets rated up to 5 when it is completely and utterly untrue.

Ethernet ports and firmware updates have nothing to do with ICT. ICT is in the HDMI/DVI vs Component realm, which is a connection issue which involves hardware. Players either have HDMI connections which are HDCP compatible or they don't. I don't know of any players that don't, other than the original 360 Add-on for non-elite 360 owners.

The real issue is with TVs that don't have HDMI/DVI HDCP compliant inputs. In that case they'd have to use the component connection on a BD/HD DVD player rather than the HDMI port. No ethernet port on a player (or a TV for that matter) is going to help.

SMH. What the heck is going on with DailyTech? Has it basically reached a point where anything can be posted negative about a company/format/console as long as it's popular opinion even if it's not only lacking in facts, but completely untrue?

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By Etsp on 1/24/2008 4:55:01 PM , Rating: 2
It has more to do with the fact that people only read the first reply under a post when rating it...regardless of facts


RE: % of what?
By psypher on 1/24/2008 9:15:19 AM , Rating: 1
HD DVD at 51 GB is 3 layers. Blu Ray at 50 GB is only 2 layers and I believe Hitachi has already demoed a 4 layer 100 GB Blu Ray disc that can be used in current players with a firmware update. God it would be cool to se things like entire trilogies on one disc...

Blu Ray early adopters are in a similar situation to HD DVD owners. Their players are already outdated. However, the highest selling Blu Ray player out there is the PS3. It is also the most advanced player available since it is 2.0 ready. So most of the people out there enjoying their nice Blu Ray movies on their PS3's have nothing to worry about. The other Blu Ray owners can console themselves in the fact that at least there will still be movies made for their players and those players will perform the most desired feature of all... playing high def movies. Who honestly cares about all the extra features? If you have actually taken the time to watch some of these extra features, you might agree with me that they should be relabled "Extra crap we threw on there so you get the illusion of better value for your money."

On to who is behind each format...

In the Blu Ray Association Board of Directors, we have: Apple, Dell, HP, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, Sun, TDK, Thomson, Fox, Disney, and Warner.

In the HD DVD Promotion Group, we have: Toshiba, NEC, Sanyo, Microsoft, RCA, Kenwood, and Intel, as well as many lesser known members.

So for the last time folks, this is not a war behind just Sony and Toshiba even though they are both big players.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: % of what?
By Belard on 1/24/2008 10:18:29 AM , Rating: 3
That why its a rumor.

2.0 Discs will not have functional 2.0 features on 1.1 or 1.0 players. 1.0 players are generally upgradable to 1.1 players. The limitation to 2.0 has to do with built-in memory. The real difference between the 1.1 / 2.0 is:
2.0 has internet connection as standard and 1GB of RAM for storage of information (from the internet).

Both HD-DVD and Blu-RAY have on-going firmware updates. They'e both kind of "beta' units.

So, a 2.0 disc - will PLAY the movie and PLAY extras like deleted scenes, etc... just won't have some of the fancy effects that may go with it.


RE: % of what?
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 9:40:29 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Sigh.... Is this village idiot day?

HD DVD is controlled by the DVD forum, the same people behind the original DVD format. Sony defected from the group to form Blu Ray - look on wikipedia.


You're both village idiots.

The DVD forum was incompetent and was developing a red laser format with aggressive compression at the same time that the BDA was pushing for blue laser. They wanted to compromise the potential of a 15 year format in order to save petty costs and retrofit old manufacturing equipment. Eventually, the red laser people accepted blue laser as the future... but not what the BDA had been pushing all along. Sony and the BDA were obviously incensed, "defected" from the incompetent forum, gained industry support, brought their product to the market, let the customer decide, and won. You're the village idiot for doing absolutely no research and trying to spin this in favor of HD-DVD.

Your post is further full of straight up misinformation. 51gb triple layer HD-DVD doesn't change the fact that single layer recordables will still be 15gb while blu-ray will be 25gb. It also fails to mention that blu-ray is just as capable of adding more layers, so saying that 51gb beats 50gb is disingenuous. It also fails to mention that triple layer HD-DVD discs may require completely new players. Then you go on to say that early Blu-ray players can't play new discs. This is INCORRECT. Old profile players can still play new discs, they simply can't use some of the new fluff features in the bonus material like PiP and whatnot. Who gives a flying monkey crap? These people knew what they were buying and could have bought a PS3 for cheaper. Duh. And for your information, the PS3 CAN be upgraded to the new profiles, which is why most blu-ray fans buy it as a player.


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 9:59:24 AM , Rating: 1
Triple layers discs will not require new players. Existing players only need a firmware update, which can be done via the handy Ethernet port.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 5:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
There has been no verifiable proof that players would be able to play TL51 discs. It has been discussed at length in the Insider's Forum at AVS. Both Microsoft insiders and HD DVD insiders have weighed in on it. For a time it was thought that only a firmware update was needed, but that was eventually brought back into question because of some insufficient data.

It is still very possible that if TL51 hit the market, older players could not play them. It is very possible that they would only need a firmware update to play them. The only thing the insiders have pretty much made clear is this: TL51 is likely not happening.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 10:11:38 AM , Rating: 2
I will point out that Sony did not let the consumer choose. It let the studios choose. Consumers never had any say in this format war. Subsidizing BR players and media was also a cheap shot.


RE: % of what?
By psypher on 1/24/2008 11:46:29 AM , Rating: 1
How is making wise business decisions a cheap shot? And by the way, if we left it to the consumers to decide then we would have an almost indefinite format war leading to higher hardware and disc prices for a longer period of time. Last time I checked, it was a company's right to produce the product that they want to produce. The movie studios have chosen Blu Ray. Good for them.

The Blu Ray Association made some smart moves and they win.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 11:47:36 AM , Rating: 2
In some markets, subsidizing like that would lead to legal action taken.


RE: % of what?
By reader1 on 1/24/2008 1:26:06 PM , Rating: 2
Toshiba has been subsidizing their HD-DVD players from the start.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20...
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jht...

Did you really think those $99 HD-DVD players were being sold at a profit?


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:27:55 PM , Rating: 2
That was nothing more than dumping last-gen stock. I haven't seen any A-3's for that price.


RE: % of what?
By Chaser on 1/24/2008 1:02:15 PM , Rating: 3
Kenobi,

Join the village idiots. Because you lack the faculties to even come close to the name to try and aspire to. Give it up.

Sony subsidizing players? What happened when Toshiba launched firesale after firesale? Remember your final hopes with the Walmart $99.00 sale that would end all wars? Consumers had choices. And despite a clear price advantage they chose the superior albeit more expensive format. The movie studios saw the numbers and did consumers a favor: Instead of holding onto some insane idea about an over priced dual format player to save you. But then again the dual format player price suddenly didn't matter to you then. Did it?

Get a clue Kenobi. The force, just like HD DVD, abandoned you. Alec Guiness should puke in his grave.


RE: % of what?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/24/2008 1:32:39 PM , Rating: 2
Normally I wouldn't take the troll bait but I will bite just this once.

quote:
What happened when Toshiba launched firesale after firesale?

Toshiba didn't launch anything. Resellers were dumping old stock, Toshiba was shipping A-3's. Last week was the first time Toshiba launched any sort of "fire sale".

quote:
Consumers had choices. And despite a clear price advantage they chose the superior albeit more expensive format.

When Resellers were dumping the old A-2 players for ~99, Toshiba sold 62% of High-Def players during that timeframe, I would say consumers were choosing the cheaper medium/players. Sales tapered off when the stock was depleted and people had to pay ~170 for a player.


RE: % of what?
By Carl B on 1/24/2008 9:47:58 AM , Rating: 2
The DVD Forum has all the legitimacy of the BDA; why extol one and ridicule the other? The fact is that the majority of major CE companies support BD, and only one of note - Toshiba - is onboard with HD DVD. Once BD becomes the de facto standard, would five years from now the argument that companies "broke" with the BDA to form their own format hold any water? No. Because support is different than the endorsement of an arbitrary stewardship organization. The DVD Forum is not an international standards body, it's simply a group dedicated to DVD; nothing more, nothing less. Which is the reason why BD was never even allowed to come up to a vote there, because a requirement of the next DVD Forum endorsed format be that it worked within the existing infrastructure.

But you can see with the defections of Panasonic, Sony, Samsung (ostensibly), Philips, Pioneer, Sharp, and others where the true *industry* support really lies. On the contrary, IMO it's HD DVD that's the rogue format on the market, a product of Toshiba's desire to keep its royalty streams alive in the face of widespread CE support for the opposition format.


RE: % of what?
By Ricky Williams on 1/24/2008 1:41:21 PM , Rating: 2
There are no commercially available 51GB discs that is only theoretical. BR can theoretically hold 200GB. 200 is greater than 51 idiot. What matters is the data per layer anyway and 25GB is significantly greater and 15GB. Blu ray discs are almost completely scratch proof with HD-DVD being no better than DVD/CD. You can't upgrade the bandwidth of the optical drive and BR is twice that of HD DVD. It doesn't matter anyway because HD-DVD is dead fanboy.


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 2:18:08 PM , Rating: 2
51GB disc is a specification that's approved whereas greater layer Blu-Ray discs are not, though you're correct that it's not terribly relevant when they're not selling them.

Bandwidth of PS3 is closer to 1.5x greater.

HD-DVD isn't dead so long as they're selling players and movies for it. Declaring it "dead" is the same "fanboy-ism" that you're accusing him of.


RE: % of what?
By retrospooty on 1/24/2008 9:26:10 AM , Rating: 1
Actually HD-DVD is supported by the entire DVD forum, and BRD is supported by the entire Blue Ray group (Sony is a member of both). HD-DVD is royalty free and BR pays royalties to Sony. That is why the discs are more expensive. Sony royalties, becasue they invented it and put the royalty on it. There is alot of companies behind it, but its Sony's baby.


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 6:08:17 PM , Rating: 3
This is false on so many levels I don't know where to begin.

#1) HD DVD is not "royalty free"

#2) The patent pools for both BD and HD DVD are still in development (check mpeg-la website for proof of that: http://www.mpegla.com/pid/bluray/ )

#3) Sony is actually the #3 patent holder in BD. Samsung is #2 and Panasonic is #1 (by the name of matsushita or something). You can check the mpeg-la website for more details.

#4) The discs are typically the same price at the store. Check most dual platform releases and you'll see this. The exception is some combo disc HD DVDs which were more expensive and 300 which was more expensive on HD DVD.

#5) BD discs are more expensive to replicate...and it's NOT because of royalties to sony. That is a retarded assumption. It has to do with the actual technology since it's newer, and the cost of new machinery for the manufacturing plants (of which Sony owns one, so it's kinda silly to assume Sony charges itself more royalties to replicate each disc). When royalties do start being paid out, it will be based on IP, of which it's very possible that Sony will not get the lion's share of, based on total patents held.

See this thread for more information: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12...

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By retrospooty on 1/24/2008 6:54:44 PM , Rating: 1
#1) you are right, but its far far less.

#2) Irrelevant. There are many many patents in both techs (see #3)

#3) Also irrelevant. The patent holder means very little. It is a compilation of tech put together by Sony, and the royalties DO get paid to Sony.

from wikipedia "Origins and competition from Blu-ray Disc"

Sony started two projects applying the new diodes: UDO (Ultra Density Optical) and DVR Blue (together with Pioneer), a format of rewritable discs which would eventually become Blu-ray." - This is using other companies, and their own patents. In other words, I can take many patents from many companies and put together a format and that format is mine, as long as I have agreements with the patent holders to use their tech.

#4) Correct per retail price. The royalties are paid by the media producer, thus they are making less profit

#5) Let me find more info and post back.


RE: % of what?
By retrospooty on 1/24/2008 8:50:50 PM , Rating: 2
There it is...

#5) (also #1) A published report has placed the price of the royalty package at around $30 per BD player. By comparison, the royalties for HD DVD players have been pegged at around $12 per unit.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/506hook/


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 11:21:08 PM , Rating: 3
You linked an article from May of 2006, before the formats had even hit the market. Needless to say, that was pure speculation. Also, it was a guesstimate of what the roylaties were on the players not the movies.

Furthermore your quote that "the patent holder means very little" and then go on to say it's a "compilation of tech put together by sony" just shows you have no clue how this stuff works. You're doing nothing but assuming that this is "Sony's baby" regardless of the FACTS that show otherwise.

If you read the link to the AVS forum that I posted in my OP, you'll see that the poster is a Blu-ray and HD DVD insider who works with a financial firm that handles the formats. He is privy to information that you and I aren't. Financial information. And he has already given you the answers you seek, IE that Panasonic and Samsung are at least as heavily invested in blu-ray as Sony are, if not more. You can disregard that info if you would like to keep up the assumptions, just don't expect anybody to lend you credibiliy.

Brandon


RE: % of what?
By retrospooty on 1/25/2008 10:49:24 AM , Rating: 2
So, your post from "some guy" on "some forum" is supposed to be taken as fact then? Please... Everyone knows Blue Ray is Sony's baby. Sony does a pretty good job of distancing themselves from that info (A good move since Betamax, minidisk and years of other proprietary format failures left a bad taste in consumers mouths) Again, like I said, Sony created the format off their own, and many other companies patents. regardless of who owns the individual patents used in the tech., Sony created the format, and organized the Blue Ray Group.

As I posted above from a reputable site - Wikipedia "Origins and competition from Blu-ray Disc" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Origins
Origins

Sony started two projects applying the new diodes: UDO (Ultra Density Optical) and DVR Blue (together with Pioneer), a format of rewritable discs which would eventually become Blu-ray Disc

Dont get me wrong, I do agree BD is the better format, and Sony DID do a good thing by getting so many companies on the BR bandwagon rather than going it all alone, but lets not pretend it isnt Sony's baby. It is, and there really isn't anything wrong with that. It is their right to make money.


RE: % of what?
By Bioniccrackmonk on 1/24/2008 8:59:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I also will mourn the loss of HD DVD, because undoubtedly Sony will take a percentage of each disc sold - not good for the consumer.


Here we go with the company bashing by another fanboy again. Why won't you people just keep your nonsense to yourself and talk about the hardware.

FYI, someone is going to get royalties off of their product, whether it be Sony or MS, either it is still going to cost the consumer in the end. Get over yourself.


RE: % of what?
By Creig on 1/24/2008 11:49:54 AM , Rating: 1
Could somebody PLEASE put a muzzle on Serfina?


RE: % of what?
By RaulF on 1/24/2008 3:11:12 AM , Rating: 2
I dont think so, Samsung anounced that they are discontinuing their dual format player in May.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=885


RE: % of what?
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 8:34:28 AM , Rating: 2
The total numbers for the units are quite low, as mentioned in another post here. The bad week for HD-DVD could easily be offset by a great week following the price cuts they've made (there's some indication the players are selling like hotcakes at the moment). In the long run, who knows what will happen.

I wouldn't rule HD-DVD dead quite yet, but it is disheartening to see studios making the format decision for us.


RE: % of what?
By Chaser on 1/24/2008 12:29:11 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry but consumers made the choice. As stated by Blockbuster and many other outlets. Both formats were sititng on the shelves and HD DVD tried to use a significant price advantage and even then comsumers chose BR over HD DVD.


RE: % of what?
By reader1 on 1/24/2008 1:53:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it is disheartening to see studios making the format decision for us.


Well, I'm glad they did because I don't want or need two formats. They should have settled this earlier and avoided the whole war. The format war has only made things more expensive for consumers and slowed adoption. It has also left a lot of people stuck with now, worthless HD-DVD players and drives.


RE: % of what?
By Chaser on 1/24/2008 12:25:31 PM , Rating: 2
No surprise this post scores a 5. And since it regards Blue Ray as the leader it can be "meaningless".

That being said lets try and keep this in DT reader context: Didn't the HD DVD chorus on here proclaimed that nearly all Blue Ray players were PS3s, PS3's that "no one knew they could play Blue Ray movies" against ALL those HD DVD stand alone players being bought? The article states that BR "players" sold at 93 percent for one week. Whether that was for one week or not it's significant and clearly indicative of the overwhelming effect of Warner's announcement.

I could imagine if the tables were turned and HD DVD players were at 93% for one week how jubilant the cheers would be on here. Certainly then it would be unquestionably "big".


RE: % of what?
By bplewis24 on 1/24/2008 6:21:50 PM , Rating: 2
It's not just for one week. HD DVD stand-alones have been outsold by BD stand-alones for over 2 months now.

Brandon


Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By InternetGeek on 1/24/2008 12:44:47 AM , Rating: 2
First time these numbers make sense because they take consoles out of the picture. Now, It's just a matter of waiting until players go down to a much more reasonable price. But this might take a while because Sony and Co will want to recoup their losses.

Someone in some other article in DT argued that when BlueRay is down to $50 a player they would come up with a new format. Anyone envision this happening? It's not impossible but I don't think most people will want to keep switching and switching buying the same movie over and over because of the new resolution.




RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By SlyNine on 1/24/2008 1:54:11 AM , Rating: 2
Some day HD will become SD, and when that happens a new and improved HD will come out. If they would create movies at a higher frame rate then 24, Id be all over that. 120hz movies at 6 times the detial as HD is now. If/when that happens then I'll ask the same question as you are now.


RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By Flunk on 1/24/2008 2:09:01 AM , Rating: 3
I want holograms already dammit, where is my 3D-remastered original Star Wars Trilogy? I want to have to buy the same 3 movies for the 4th time.


RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By theapparition on 1/24/2008 10:31:43 AM , Rating: 3
Only 4 times.....amateaur

Let's see.

LD individuals
VHS individuals
VHS box set
VHS THX box set
VHS Remastered box set
DVD box set (Remastered)
DVD individuals (originals)

Coming soon.....
HD/BR box set (remastered, since that's all that he'll say he'll release)
HD/BR box set (originals, release a year later that I'll stupidly buy)

soon after that:
HVD box set (Holographic disks)
Crystalcube QuadHD
Direct telekenysis memory tranfer OctalHD

And finally,
The MPAA and RIAA will become so powerful, they'll come in my house, destroy all my old versions, and anytime I think my dog looks like a wookie, I'll be charged royalties.

BTW, Greedo did NOT shoot first!


By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 1:02:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The MPAA and RIAA will become so powerful, they'll come in my house, destroy all my old versions, and anytime I think my dog looks like a wookie, I'll be charged royalties.

You mean they don't do that already?


RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By treehugger87 on 1/24/2008 2:22:58 AM , Rating: 2
At that resolution your eye wouldn't be able to detect a difference, although the 120 hz refresh rate might make a differnce in action scenes etc.


RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By SlyNine on 1/24/2008 2:32:51 AM , Rating: 2
My eye could detect the difference between 1080p and 6times that, But I get what you're saying. I have yet to see a PC monitor that I cannot see jaggies with out AA on.
but somthing higher then 60hz or at least movies playing at 60hz is despratly desired by me. Imax movies bug the hell out of me.


By RaulF on 1/24/2008 3:13:53 AM , Rating: 2
Video renders and Film image are different, good luck seening jaggies on the 1080P movies that were done right.


RE: Star Wars Pic of Tarkin and Vader pls?
By FITCamaro on 1/24/2008 8:44:25 AM , Rating: 1
That's because PC graphics aren't real images. You'll always see some jaggies in a video game until ray tracing is done and done right.

Live action video is completely different. I ask you to show me in a modern movie where you see "jaggies" that are a result of the movie, not the display.

You can believe you have superman sight all you want. But depending on the distance, the eye already can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p.


By noirsoft on 1/24/2008 12:44:24 PM , Rating: 2
Jaggies have nothing to do with ray tracing vs scan-line rendering. It's all about supersampling, which both do equally well (or poorly, depending on how you look at it)

I also don't believe that Ray Tracing will ever completely replace scan-line rendering. Without some major shift (what kind of shift I don't know, nor has any good design been yet proposed) in how hardware is designed, scan-line rendering will always be faster.


And now... the end is near
By Belard on 1/24/2008 5:24:29 AM , Rating: 2
Almost every few says since December... its been another NAIL in HD-DVD's coffin.

We just need's Paramount and Universal to take the casket out to the field and for Toshiba to bury it, making it offical 100%. I doubt the $100 shelf price is going to save it HD-DVD, nobody is buying them.

The PRO's for HD-DVD against Blu has been Price Price Price, ethernet and wow - you can see the people talking in PIP. Things that are not that big of a deal as updates have been done with burned CDs.

Until the fire sales, BR players have only been $100~300 over the price of the Toshiba HD-DVD players (Onkyo had a $1000 HD-DVD player)

But BR had features over HD since he beginning.
1 - BR has been around for over 4 years, but recently for consumer users. HD-DVD was originally a super compressed version of a 9GB DVD... refer to wikipedia.

2 - BR had almost twice the storage space. BR's 25gb single layer vs HD's 30GB double layered discs. Most HD-DVD discs were double-layered. Less than half of BR's are double layered. Means: less compression, more extra content or running time.

3 - BR players can start a BR disc from where the user powered out the player. With HD-DVD, powering up a HD-DVD player would start back to the menu (grrrrr) Boot up time was about a minute... but thats about the same for ALL players.

4 - BR players can ready 3-4 layered discs when they come out (75/100GB) while HD-DVD players would require replacement. Also, HD-DVD would be 15/30/45/60GB sizes. But if the player needs to be replaced, it won't matter much. Of course this area is still a bit grey. Funny, I found a old blog from 2006 that was supposed to be "balanced' and it was actually PRO HD-DVD. Saying silly things like "HD-DVD has more capacity because SONY hasn't made any double-layered discs. So its 25gb vs 30gb! HD-DVD wins!!)

5 - Consumer BR Burners on the market within weeks of the PS3... HD-DVD burners, uh nowhere. In Japan - People buy more recorders than plain players. 90% of players are Blu.

BR was always in a better position when SONY created it and owning a major Studio (Sony Pictures) with its little cousins. PS3 included the player, which meant millions of units in people's hands.

Still, if SONY wants to help grow the blue market faster, every PS3 should include a movie IN THE BOX.

Currently, in the USA - buying SHARP, Panasonic or SONY TV = getting a free BR player with the same brand.




RE: And now... the end is near
By diablofish on 1/24/2008 8:53:32 AM , Rating: 4
In my humble opinion, HD-DVD went astray by not pricing their MEDIA cheaper than Blu-Ray media. The initial investment in an entry-level player pales in comparison to buying all those movies. HD-DVD is supposedly cheaper for the studios, so why not pass those savings on to the consumer? And charging $10 extra for a dual DVD/HD-DVD disc didn't help them either.


RE: And now... the end is near
By fleshconsumed on 1/24/2008 10:14:10 AM , Rating: 2
Yet another village idiot...

quote:
1 - BR has been around for over 4 years, but recently for consumer users. HD-DVD was originally a super compressed version of a 9GB DVD... refer to wikipedia.

How is being around for 4 years makes one format superior to another? Besides if you want to argue that point, consumer HD DVD players hit retail shelves 3 months before bluray did. However, frankly it's an irrelevant point. About compressed version... You have taken physics class didn't you? Both HD DVD and bluray use blue lasers with shorter wavelength compared to red ones used in CD/DVD to achieve smaller pits and therefore higher capacity. So both formats are compressed versions of DVD.

quote:
2 - BR had almost twice the storage space. BR's 25gb single layer vs HD's 30GB double layered discs. Most HD-DVD discs were double-layered. Less than half of BR's are double layered. Means: less compression, more extra content or running time.

Irrelevant because both HD DVD and bluray use advanced compression algorithms to achieve better picture and 30GB is plenty for a movie and extra material. A 720p rip can fit into 4.37GB without any noticable loss of quality, a 1080p version will take 2.5 times that and will still fit in a single layer HD DVD leaving second layer for extras. Potentially you could put higher bitrates on bluray, but honestly no one is going to notice it.

quote:
3 - BR players can start a BR disc from where the user powered out the player. With HD-DVD, powering up a HD-DVD player would start back to the menu (grrrrr) Boot up time was about a minute... but thats about the same for ALL players.

Starting disc from the same moment when user powered out the player is a player feature, not a format feature, duh. Boot up times? Yes, the very first generation HD DVD players had 1 minute boot up times because they were basically P4 computers with rudimentary unix OSes or whatnot. The boot up times have improved significantly with the second generation and is not such an issue anymore.

quote:
4 - BR players can ready 3-4 layered discs when they come out (75/100GB) while HD-DVD players would require replacement. Also, HD-DVD would be 15/30/45/60GB sizes. But if the player needs to be replaced, it won't matter much. Of course this area is still a bit grey. Funny, I found a old blog from 2006 that was supposed to be "balanced' and it was actually PRO HD-DVD. Saying silly things like "HD-DVD has more capacity because SONY hasn't made any double-layered discs. So its 25gb vs 30gb! HD-DVD wins!!)

First time I hear about bluray players being able to read 3-4 layered discs out of the box but I sincerely doubt it's true, and even if that was possible Sony would still force you to upgrade. If 3-4 layered hddvd and bluray discs will ever make it to retail market, which I once again sincerely doubt (it hasn't worked out for regular DVD and it has even less of a chance to work out with hd formats) I highly suspect both formats will require new players. And frankly your notion that bluray players will read 3-4 layers is ridiculous in itself. Sony is known to screw up everything it can and force new formats down the line, remember when the first bluray movies that came out and didn't use new compression scheme so they looked worse than regular DVDs, remember blu-rot, remember how early BR players refused to read dual layer discs? If anyone will have to replace a player it's bluray.

quote:
5 - Consumer BR Burners on the market within weeks of the PS3... HD-DVD burners, uh nowhere. In Japan - People buy more recorders than plain players. 90% of players are Blu.

Don't know where you looked but hd dvd burners are available.

Now here are the reasons why hd dvd is a better choice for consumer:
1. Same visual quality as bluray but cheaper. The cheapest bluray player is still over $300 on sale.

2. Both formats have AACS encoding, and while it is mandatory for bluray, it is not the case with hd dvd. With hd dvd it is up to the studios if they want to include AACS on the movies they make.

3. Region coding. HD DVD does not have any.

4. Constant format revisions for bluray. HD DVD has been feature complete from the very beginning. It required bluray 3 spec changes to get to the same point, and since players couldn't be updated, consumers were forced to buy new players with each revision. Do I think it will stop? Not likely. Sony is the king of introducing new versions of the same thing every few years. Memory Stick I -> Memory Stick II, MiniDisc1 -> MiniDisc2 (1 GB version), Atrac 1 -> 2 -> 3. Chances are that your HD DVD collection will last you for a while. With bluray I'm not so sure, more than likely Sony will try to shove you BluRay2 in a couple of years forcing you to upgrade all over again.

HD DVD is a more stable format. It's cheaper and offers the same quality. It has no region coding and copy protection is optional. It has been feature complete from the beginning and there are no further revisions foreseen. I really don't get it how can people say bluray is a superior format. Yes, it has more storage, but that extra storage is not needed and bluray fails in every other respect compared to hd dvd.

I will not deny that bluray seems to be winning, but it's nothing to cheer about. Consumers did not make that choice. Movie studios did by picking a single format. And that format is inferior because it offers less freedom and more hassle for consumers.


RE: And now... the end is near
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 11:35:34 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Sony is known to screw up everything it can and force new formats down the line


Right away, your post loses all credibility with anti-Sony viral rhetoric. 3.5" floppy, CD-ROM, and DVD in the PS2 were just such bad development/adoption decisions, weren't they? What a horrible past Sony has "forced" upon us!

quote:
Same visual quality as bluray but cheaper. The cheapest bluray player is still over $300 on sale.


True, but it's only cheaper in this early window, not permanently so, and it has not delivered anywhere near as many lossless audio discs as blu-ray has. Not even Transformers had lossless audio. You also have less choice for players brand (1), a far worse format for recordables with 10gb less space per single layer disc. Where you're going wrong in your following list of selective advantages, is failing to weigh those advantages against blu-ray's. For example, is the region coding disparity, something 99% of consumers didn't care about with DVD, more important than getting the best possible audio or getting 25gb single layer recordables? Not even close. And what about DRM? Again, you portray an exaggerated disparity that is rendered moot by the inevitable cracking of both formats. Ethernet callbacks, 1-copy limitations, slightly less DRM but still high level DRM? No thanks, not buying it. I'll take the higher capacity recordables, better audio, and less disc swappage for tv shows. But you know, you sit there and cite temporary cost advantages and make stupid predictions based on false correlations to memory sticks. I mean, it's just pathetic at best.


RE: And now... the end is near
By fleshconsumed on 1/24/2008 12:01:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right away, your post loses all credibility with anti-Sony viral rhetoric. 3.5" floppy, CD-ROM, and DVD in the PS2 were just such bad development/adoption decisions, weren't they? What a horrible past Sony has "forced" upon us!

My bad, I should have said "tend to screw up". For every successful format Sony co-created (CD-ROM was a joint development) it has 5 that failed. And for that matter, I also remember excessive DVD rom failure rate in PS2's.

quote:
True, but it's only cheaper in this early window, not permanently so

When has sony stuff has ever been cheap? Sony has a significant brand name markup on everything they make.

quote:
and it has not delivered anywhere near as many lossless audio discs as blu-ray has. Not even Transformers had lossless audio. You also have less choice for players brand (1), a far worse format for recordables with 10gb less space per single layer disc. Where you're going wrong in your following list of selective advantages, is failing to weigh those advantages against blu-ray's. For example, is the region coding disparity, something 99% of consumers didn't care about with DVD, more important than getting the best possible audio or getting 25gb single layer recordables? Not even close. And what about DRM? Again, you portray an exaggerated disparity that is rendered moot by the inevitable cracking of both formats. Ethernet callbacks, 1-copy limitations, slightly less DRM but still high level DRM? No thanks, not buying it. I'll take the higher capacity recordables, better audio, and less disc swappage for tv shows. But you know, you sit there and cite temporary cost advantages and make stupid predictions based on false correlations to memory sticks. I mean, it's just pathetic at best.

Guess what, it matters to me. At the end of the day the perceptive quality is the same, however I'd rather root for the guy who doesn't make me jump through the hoops if I want to copy a disc or import it from another country. Yes, both HD DVD and bluray protections have been broken, but I simply do not like the fact that it's there. And while I may not import disc from another country right now right this second, I would like an option should I chose to. Terminator 2 extended cut (154 minute version) has been released on HD DVD in Europe, but in the US only theatrical (137 minute) is available, so people in the US have been buying it from Europe and guess what, the great thing is they have been able to do so. People also have been known to buy region-less Leon/Professional DVD from Asia because it's vastly superior to anything available in the US. If this was bluray all those people would not have been able to buy the product they want simply because it's not available for US market and because movie studios do not want to release it. You can't beat that.


RE: And now... the end is near
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 1:53:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My bad, I should have said "tend to screw up". For every successful format Sony co-created (CD-ROM was a joint development) it has 5 that failed.


Awesome, a company tries new things and lets the customer decide whether it succeeds or not. I like risk and the free market. Memory sticks are cheap and work great for my PSP and ATRAC/MiniDisc hasn't hurt me one bit because I chose not to buy them. Isn't that amazing!?

quote:
When has sony stuff has ever been cheap? Sony has a significant brand name markup on everything they make.


For the 5 gazillionth time in these threads, BDA is a consortium of many companies, not just Sony. Just because Sony has certain IP rights to much of blu-ray means as much as it did in the CD-ROM era when they teamed up with Philips to create CD-ROM... it means nothing. Blu-ray is not expensive because it's Sony, you dolt. It's expensive because it is a larger push technologically and has lower initial yields. It's also more expensive because BDA stand-alones use a for-profit model while Toshiba alienates itself by selling at a loss. Samsung, Philips, etc, are not going to make HD-DVD players so that they can lose money. THAT'S WHY BLU-RAY HAS THE INDUSTRY SUPPORT. They're not trying to screw you, they're just trying to follow a sane business model. All formats are prohibitively expensive when they're new and then get cheaper as through competition and technology advancements increasing yields. DUH! Are you saying that if DVD had had a cheaper competitor at 2.7gb, you would have sided with it out of initial affordability? No, you wouldn't, because you have the luxury of hindsight.


RE: And now... the end is near
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 1:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sony has a significant brand name markup on everything they make.


Forgot to mention how patently false this statement is in itself. The PS3 has been selling at a significant markDOWN for over a year. That's right, they LOSE money on each unit sold, hoping to deliver a longer lasting spec by making up for early losses with future sales and licensing.


RE: And now... the end is near
By Belard on 1/24/2008 11:45:05 AM , Rating: 2
Before you call people village idiots, you need to buy a mirror.

quote:
How is being around for 4 years makes one format superior to another? Besides if you want to argue that point, consumer HD DVD players hit retail shelves 3 months before bluray did. However, frankly it's an irrelevant point. About compressed version... You have taken physics class didn't you? Both HD DVD and bluray use blue lasers with shorter wavelength compared to red ones used in CD/DVD to achieve smaller pits and therefore higher capacity. So both formats are compressed versions of DVD.


Hmmm... guess it was above your head... The time frame about 4 years has to do with market penatration. In which both formats have millions of units in the wild. Not a 100,000 or so... Ang gee, there is SO much compression a studio is willing to do. So perhaps there is a REASON that mot HD-DVD discs are doule layers while only half of BR discs are double layered. Space is an issue. Hence the development of 4~10 layered discs. And yes, TDK and others report that a BIOS upgrade on the player should allow it to read other layers.

About startup time... I was refering to a 2nd gen Toshiba.

SONY isn't the king of new versions of the same thing. That's intel. Older P35boards may not work with newer Core2 CPUs. Or howabout all these socket PGA775 boards... hmmm, those from 2-3 years ago are not compatible with todays CPUs. Wait, we got DDR, DDR2, DDR3.. Wait, my 300GB HD should be self-compatible to expand to a 500GB drive!

Whatever... you're a HD-DVD fanboy. I don't own a PS3,360 or any HiDef player.

You still go over the same trival 3 things about why HD-DVD is better. $130, hmmm I'm not buying it. Neither is many other people. region coding... I guessing that over 95% of the consumers could care less about playing an import disc.

Have a good one.


By fleshconsumed on 1/24/2008 12:17:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hmmm... guess it was above your head... The time frame about 4 years has to do with market penatration.

Market penetration for a product that has not been available for consumer until 3 months after first HD DVD player launched? Do you even hear what you're saying?

quote:
So perhaps there is a REASON that mot HD-DVD discs are doule layers while only half of BR discs are double layered.

Yes, there is a reason why half of blu-ray discs are only single layer: the extra capacity is just not needed. Terminator 2 extended cut fits on HD-DVD and it's 154 minutes long, way more than the vast majority of the movies.

quote:
And yes, TDK and others report that a BIOS upgrade on the player should allow it to read other layers.

If history is any indication this will never come to life.

quote:
You still go over the same trival 3 things about why HD-DVD is better.

That's a shallow argument, i.e. you still going over 1 trivial thing about why bluray is better. 3 is better than 1?

quote:
region coding... I guessing that over 95% of the consumers could care less about playing an import disc.

As I already answered to another guy it does matter. People have been buying HD DVD Terminator 2 from Europe because it has both Theatrical and Extended Cut on it, while Terminator 2 on bluray in the US only has Theatrical version.


RE: And now... the end is near
By Proteusza on 1/24/2008 12:59:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
HD-DVD was originally a super compressed version of a 9GB DVD... refer to wikipedia.


Yes, the DVD Forum initially did want to use compression. But, I doubt that product would have been called HD DVD, and seeing as it never saw the light of day, its FUD to say that that is what HD DVD started out as. I mean, both are descended from the same thing, both in fact use blue lasers (the same low wavelength).

quote:
BR players can ready 3-4 layered discs when they come out (75/100GB) while HD-DVD players would require replacement. Also, HD-DVD would be 15/30/45/60GB sizes. But if the player needs to be replaced, it won't matter much.


HD DVD's can have triple layers, with each layer providing 17Gb for a total of 51GB. And these triple layer DVD's work on any HD DVD player, while Blu Ray players as far as I know cant read more than double layer dvds, and lack the means to be updated.

The format war hasnt been one because of technology or features, its been won because of subsidizing and studio backing, and with Sony demanding royalties for each disc and player sold, and using draconian DRM and region encoding, I think this is one event which we will rue later. time will tell though.


Blu ray won! Sony won!
By Serafina on 1/24/2008 1:44:21 AM , Rating: 2
HD-DVD is dead.

Blu ray is the future. Start selling your HD-DVD players now, and for the people who bought the HD-DVD add on for Xbox360, I guess you can use that as a paper weight!

I'm gonna go buy a PS3.




RE: Blu ray won! Sony won!
By SlyNine on 1/24/2008 1:57:13 AM , Rating: 5
Maybe they'll just keep it around too watch the movies they allready got for it.


RE: Blu ray won! Sony won!
By Scribe2002 on 1/24/2008 3:34:27 AM , Rating: 1
Blu-ray Disc Takes 93 Percent of Hardware Sales During Week 2

After doing a little common sense research on my own I have been left with more questions than answers and I encourage all of you to look a little deeper into this matter. Being an indie filmmaker with plans of self distributing some of my own films, I find the claims of one format triumphing over the other disturbing.

In the first week of Jan 08 I searched as many international and national media sources to see if I could find actual support for the Blu-ray claims. I discovered that in 2006-2007 HD DVD was the dominant format in Europe.
In the US while 4 of the major studios moved to the Blu-ray format because Blu-ray players were selling at approximately 2-1 over HD DVD players, there was clear indication the HD DVD disc were sold at a 3 to 1 ratio over Blu-ray disc per buyer.

I initially began my search because I wanted to know the actual number of Blu-ray vs HD DVD players sold in 2007. Figures released in August 07 indicated 500,000+ HD DVD players had been sold through July 07 and there was projections that over 1,000,000 units would be sold by December 2007. The Mid year numbers issued for the Blu-ray players for the same period of 07 stated that over 2.5 Million units were sold.
But as I began to look closer at the Blu-ray numbers it became apparent that if PS3 drives were subtracted from the total numbers a different picture would be painted.

The latest numbers for 2007 issued in Dec 07 counting standalone players and the PS3, states that 2.7 million Blu-ray players have now been sold to consumers.

This info was from the Blu-ray Disc Association, while the HD DVD camp announced that it had sold over 750,000 players (including standalones and the Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on).

Posted Jan 07, 2008 at 05:42AM by Charles D.
Listed in: News Tags: Sony, Reuters Ó23 QJ , Sony's Kazuo "Kaz" Hirai announced after determining the holiday sales for the PS3. Sony tallied the sales of the console with 1.2 million units sold in North America, two-thirds of what it sold in 2007

That would bring the number od PS3 sold to 792,000 units.

2.7 Million - 792,000 = 1,908,000 Blu-Ray players (including PS3s sold between Jan and Nov 07)

Its numbers like these that make me scratch my head, are you with me?

Additionally, if you reflect, I think you'll agree that our gamer friends are hard core players and would rather play their games than watch videos on the game consoles. Thinking from a distribution vantage point, the world-wide 90 million PS2 console sales (reached in early 2005) and the possible PS3 with it's integrated Blu-ray player, conjures up very seductive possibilities. If I were a studio executive I would want more concrete numbers than the total number of players sold. By endorsing one format HD disc, the major studios could be making a big mistake, which could lead to less sales in this future multi-format marketplace.

I will distribute in both formats until the sales die out.

What do you think?

PS In October 07 Transformer HD DVD sold 190,000 disc in one week.

This is my first posting


RE: Blu ray won! Sony won!
By Proteusza on 1/24/2008 9:10:33 AM , Rating: 2
very interesting. Frankly, I want to know whether the number of Blu Ray players sold does include PS3s - I suspect that it does.

Also, I wish someone would do a survey of the people who are buying HD/Blu Ray players. In fact, I wish someone had done a survey over the last 12 months, to see what is motivating purchase decisions.

I'm interested because I dont think that most of the public even knows of the difference between the 2 formats. Without good knowledge before entering the store, I think we can presume that factors within the store, such as promotions, sales staff bias and basic information are influencing sales. I'm guessing most people ask about the maximum capacity of each disc, and that helps them decide. Obviously, the recent announcement did provide customers with some information though.


Splat
By SavagePotato on 1/24/2008 9:58:51 AM , Rating: 2
"I bet things look alot different if you look at the sa player sales" - Paraphrase of the first post of the 85:15 Nielsen article.

Guess not.

Reality sinking in, such fun. I can't wait for Paramount and Universal to switch. Not for the war to end, that's already over. Just to see the rampaging BS that hd-dvd backers manage to pull out of their backsides to downplay it.

Keep the entertainment coming.




RE: Splat
By sweetsauce on 1/24/2008 11:18:17 AM , Rating: 2
85% of 100 players sold = 85 players sold. Where are the numbers saying how many players were actually sold? Percentages mean nothing. FUD FUD FUD?


RE: Splat
By Belard on 1/24/2008 11:30:08 AM , Rating: 3
Sorry... no FUD for you.

"NPD Confirms Huge Blu-ray Share Jump"

Total Sales Numbers:

Week Ending 1/5 (Before Warner switch):
Blu-ray Disc - 15,257 units
HD-DVD - 14,558 units

Week Ending 1/12 (After Warner switch):
Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
HD-DVD - 1,758 units

* These numbers DO NOT INCLUDE PS3 or XBoX360 add-ons.
* these do not include dual-format players (which is 3% of the market for players)
* These do NOT include HiDef drives (play or record) for PCs.


RE: Splat
By SavagePotato on 1/24/2008 2:32:44 PM , Rating: 1
Uh oh guess you failed at math too.

Looks like you should have read the numbers first and opened your yap second.

As the above poster has also pointed out, since you were too lazy to read them the first time. Maybe you need to look more closely at them.

Don't worry you can still pretend hd-dvd is winning, after all you guys have been doing it for what, two years now anyway? What's a few more months of blissful ignorance.


RE: Splat
By Belard on 1/24/2008 11:25:06 AM , Rating: 2
What is kind of funny... in some HD-DVD forums, like on Amazon - some are posting "Only post if you HAVE an HD-DVD player or support HD-DVD"...

So many of these guys want to be in a room, patting them selves on the back. They don't want to KNOW about what is going on in the movie industry... they don't want to hear it. ITs lies. Another funny thing I saw "If there wasn't Blu-Ray, today's HD-DVD players would be $50~100!! Price will win the war" er... They don't get it. If here WAS no blu-ray, the typical HD-DVD player would still be $300~500, period. I think that BR CE units will start hitting $200 by this Christmas thou.

Oh well... not my problem.


This article posted is Rubbish and heres is proof
By kusala on 1/24/2008 9:58:17 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.dailygame.net/news/archives/007137.php

Nuff said. What a joke. This story should be updated.




By Serafina on 1/24/2008 11:15:15 PM , Rating: 1
No it's not rubbish. Blu ray won! HD-DVD is dead, you're just a butt-hurt HD-DVD fanboy, cry more!


By kusala on 1/25/2008 6:17:19 AM , Rating: 2
Now that you look like an idiot before knowing the facts I can tell you. I have an LG super blu that plays all 3 formats.

But I like the competition as it saves my wallet. And I like to see all movies in high def so I use both foth high def formats.

This site is becoming very immature. Like if blu ray does end up winning the people that soly support it get somthing.... Guess what we are not getting anything if blu wins but high prices.


By BansheeX on 1/25/2008 10:02:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Guess what we are not getting anything if blu wins but high prices.


Tired assumption with no legs. Studios and manufacturers will continue to compete for your dollar. Look at DVD - no competing format and prices were just as high at first but continued to drop over time.

Guess what we'll get if neither format wins? Persistent confusion and a format that will remain forever niche with the mainstream consumer. Only a small fraction of movies have been released in HD so far. The faster one format wins, the faster HD gets adopted, and the faster studios start releasing the remaining catalog.


By kusala on 1/25/2008 2:49:44 PM , Rating: 2
Wheres the legs on mine??? Did you not know competition brings down prices?

I would rather have 2 formats than have 1 forced on me. If they were so concerned about what the people want they would release in both formats. It worked for beta and VHS did it not?


Bought a Sony PS3
By sibbor on 1/24/2008 2:17:44 AM , Rating: 1
I've just bought a Sony PS3, so to me this is good news. Of course it's a bit tricky for us customers when there's two big formats challenging about the market. Although, now my choice is made; I went for Blu-Ray. Therefore it's in my best interest that HD-DVD fails, or choose another market; not the European.

Things might change though, and then I'll have to pay for another machine... doesn't really bother me THAT much, but I would love to have Blu-Ray only.




RE: Bought a Sony PS3
By mmntech on 1/24/2008 9:37:46 AM , Rating: 2
I have a PS3 as well but I was actually hoping HD-DVD would gain some ground. HD was the more consumer friendly format due to its lack of region codes and less DRM. BD is good for data storage like games and such but HD was the better movie format for the reasons I listed. Like most sane people, I'm tired of manufacturers and studios telling me what I can and can't do with media I legally purchased.
If Toshiba was smart, they'd give HD a huge advertising push with the focus on it being more user friendly. That tactic has been hugely successful for Apple.

I personally don't think HD-DVD will ever truly go away. Most loosing formats don't. Beta was used a lot for years in professional recording for example. I still believe that HD will become a niche market for fans of foreign films.


RE: Bought a Sony PS3
By Belard on 1/24/2008 11:15:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
HD was the more consumer friendly format due to its lack of region codes and less DRM.


(1) - Try turning off a HD-DVD player part way through a movie, come back to it - power it and the TV back up... not quite so friendly. (2) - Many movie studios want reigion codes because of legal deals/rights. I think about 30% or so of BR-Discs are actually reigion locked. The big deal is between Americas/Japan and Europe... not a big deal. (3) - Both HD & BR have DRM... so, not much there.

quote:
but HD was the better movie format for the reasons I listed
What did you list? Other than ordering perhaps some movies from Europe - there isn't any limitations... that is up to the STUDIOS. Disney and FOX didn't support HD because of this. At least its not nearly as bad as DVD with 7 reigions!

Features that count: Storage space, A/V Quality, functionality...

I hate the RIAA, MPAA etc myself. They have the rights to protect their movies - but they are a bit overboard with their customers. Pirates don't need to buy the DVDs to pirate them.

Toshiba (another fine Japanese company) never had the muscle of SONY or market ability. IF HD-DVD was bigger and more studio support, another year ahead of SONY - as well as the XBOX add-on (that didn't sound like a jet engine), then BLU would be in this position.

No amount of marketing is going to help Toshiba now. Not even the silly petition... in which about 10% are actually ANTI HD-DVD... since the beginning. It really served to tell Toshiba, Paramount and Universal that HD is in serious trouble. We can't handle 2 simular formats in which there is very little difference. Both are the same shape and do the same thing. VHS/BETA - had different ways of loading and controlling the tape, BETA had better picture, VHS has more time... etc.

quote:
I personally don't think HD-DVD will ever truly go away. Most loosing formats don't. Beta was used a lot for years in professional recording for example. I still believe that HD will become a niche market for fans of foreign films.


Unlike BETA - Neither formats had started hitting critical mass. The BETA/VHS war didn't heat up until 5 years later... overall, it lasted about 13years. Then SONY started making VHS and phased out BETA. It was about 5 years for BETA to only have 25% of the market in 1980. HD-DVD just took a big hit in about a year or two.

When Betamax died, a total of 18million were sold world-wide. At one point over 2million were sold each year.
Compare that to 100,000 HD-DVD players to... a larger number of Blu-Ray (at about 700K?) and about 8-10million PS3s? betamax was based off of SONY's PRO hardware, thats why it had a picture that blew away VHS. Betacam - while based on the same tech, IS not the same as betamax. Betacam is PRO grade camera hardware/studios.

HD-DVD will not become a niche for foreign films. We have access to movies from all over the world... and die-hard fans have bought universal or multi-region DVD players in the past. There was a bigger issue of NTSC <> PAL - which I don't know HOW that relates to HiDef TVs. I assume because of broadcast and electrical system differences - HD in Europe is not the same as that in US/Japan.

With so few players made, almost nobody will be making movies for HD-DVD, oh yeah - only two studios with ESCAPE clauses are still making movies. WB is phasing out... I don't think many HD-DVD owners are going to continue buying HD-DVD discs.

People will have to WANT to buy HD-DVD for the next 5 years for it last another 5-10 years. Less than 2,000 players sold last week compared to almost 22,000 BluRay?

Week Ending 1/12 (After Warner switch):
Blu-ray Disc - 21,770 units
HD-DVD - 1,758 units

I wouldn't be surprised if HD-DVD sales jump a bit to 3-4,000 units with the $120~130 price tag. But then again, compared to FREE players from SONY, Sharp and Panasonic... but I'm guessing they'll still sell over 20~25K units.

As standard with companies: PU (Paramount Universal) are both saying they're sticking it out with the RED, until they're ready to announce they're going blu. Actually it is kind of impossible for them to JUMP to blu right away as there isn't enough Blu-Ray duplication centers built to handle the loads.

PS: A2 series looks a lot nicer than the A3s which look a bit on the cheap.

PS2: Both Toshiba and many HD-DVD consumers are saying "It makes a great Upconverter at least" - gee, thanks... they sell those for $35 at walmart.

PS3: "Industry watchers were abuzz with reports that retailers were seeing heavy return rates on HD DVD players since Christmas after buyers realized many of the movies they wanted were only on Blu-ray."


RE: Bought a Sony PS3
By blaster5k on 1/24/2008 1:25:34 PM , Rating: 3
You can't get a good upconverter for $35. To get something that rivals the HD-A3, you'd have to spend about the same amount of money ($125) on a DVD-only player. So Toshiba's trying to tap into the the people currently going for those sort of players with their lower price point. It's a good move, though it may be too little too late thanks to Warner.


Holy Cow Batman!!!
By EglsFly on 1/24/2008 12:28:27 AM , Rating: 3
Impressive considering that the PS3 was not included.

Blu-Ray disc sales are definitely out pacing HD-DVD. The numbers from Amazon.com seem to indicate a 4-1 ratio (and growing) as of 1/23/08:
http://charts.highdefdigest.com/history.aspx?TYPE=...

With Blu-Ray Players now vastly out selling Toshiba players, the disparity is only going to continue to grow in favor of Blu-Ray.




RE: Holy Cow Batman!!!
By imaheadcase on 1/24/2008 1:13:37 AM , Rating: 2
Rumor is wal-mart will stop selling HD-DVD movies in coming months. Citing lack of customer interest. We already have stop orders on some HD-DVD titles.


Paramount does Blu-Ray
By Murst on 1/24/2008 11:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted on DT yet, but Paramount will be releasing titles on BR.

According to Amazon.co.uk,

Trading Places: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trading-Places-Blu-ray-Den...

Coming To America: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coming-America-Blu-ray-Edd...

are both being released on Blu Ray, and they're distributed by Paramount. Previously, these movies had a 3/10 release date, but that has since been removed.

That only leaves Universal w/ HD-DVD only, and that will most likely be changing soon as well. I'd expect to see more Paramount movies coming over to BR soon.




RE: Paramount does Blu-Ray
By kusala on 1/24/2008 10:01:07 PM , Rating: 2
Wow people really do not know. In other countries they release in both. Just like you can pick up HD DVD overseas that ya can not get here


Porn for Blu-Ray will make it the winner!
By xbeanerx on 1/24/2008 4:39:43 PM , Rating: 2
blu-ray Needs porn so it can declare its self the winner.
Remember beta Vs VHS once porn got on the side of VHS They Won!
Porn will do wonders for the blu-ray industry




By Future145 on 1/25/2008 8:46:14 PM , Rating: 2
i dont think porn will will this war anymore considering one thing, The Internet. With the Internet as vast as it is and all the porn on it, most people dont buy porn on on media anymore. That is the reason porn was the VHS/Beta war, because
the internet was still very young.


Hey Toshiba supported SONY
By Belard on 1/25/2008 4:20:12 AM , Rating: 2
Hey! I remember back in the OLD days, I wanted to buy a blood-red VCR. It was very cool looking. It was a Toshiba BETAMAX unit.




RE: Hey Toshiba supported SONY
By xbeanerx on 1/25/2008 5:01:30 PM , Rating: 2
Hey but what about the PORN!!!


I really hope
By Sylar on 1/24/2008 9:27:05 AM , Rating: 3
this news won't entice Michael Bay to open his big mouth again.




Look on the bright side
By DKWinsor on 1/24/2008 2:08:41 AM , Rating: 1
HD fanboys (and I *was* rooting for them) can look on the bright side. It was only nearly 93%, not really 93% like the headline says. And thank Santa it wasn't 95%.

/end joke




RE: Look on the bright side
By Belard on 1/24/2008 4:54:25 AM , Rating: 1
Imagine those people who bought those $1000 Onkyo HD-DVD players (re-branded Toshiba's)...

Better to have bought the $100~200 players and lose than the $400~500 Toshiba models.

keep in mind. some people have 50~100 HD-DVD titles, at $25 a pop that is $1,250~$2000 in media that will eventually be useless when the player dies. I have about 100 Laser discs I can't play because the player died, and I'm not willing to spend $200 on ebay to buy a replacement.


Its over.....
By chizow on 1/24/2008 11:55:48 AM , Rating: 2
Just waiting for the fat lady to sing...

I ended up buying an LG Combo drive as I didn't want to wait out the format war. Lots more fun just sitting back with some popcorn. :)




By xbeanerx on 1/26/2008 6:03:58 AM , Rating: 2
Damm it what about the blu-ray porn that is what will help it!
think about it High def Boobs!!!God Bless America!!




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