Print 142 comment(s) - last by Adsski.. on Dec 10 at 5:51 AM

Blu-ray Disc nearly triples HD DVD numbers during Thanksgiving shopping

While the HD DVD group was happily selling its players at new low prices, the Blu-ray Disc camp managed to sell more movies in the week leading up to Thanksgiving. Early data shows Blu-ray Disc sales outpacing HD DVD by an even greater margin than usual.

Tracking firm Nielsen VideoScan has released information showing that 72.6 percent of high-definition discs purchased by consumers were Blu-ray Disc, and just 27.4 percent were HD DVD, reports Home Media Magazine.

A report released last month from Home Media Research indicated that between January 1 and September 30, Blu-ray Disc sold 2.6 million units versus 1.4 million for HD DVD – closely supporting a steady ratio of two Blu-ray Discs sold for every HD DVD.

Nevertheless, the data showing Blu-ray Disc’s commanding lead during Black Friday is slightly surprising given the recent surge in HD DVD sales thanks to rock-bottom prices. Retailers such as Wal-Mart and Best Buy sold Toshiba HD DVD players for less than $100, though prices have since gone back up. Throughout the weekend of the sale prices, Toshiba sold 90,000 players.

Those buyers, however, appeared to be less enthusiastic about buying HD DVD movies during the Thanksgiving holiday, with Blu-ray Disc sales outdoing HD DVD by nearly three-fold. The data from Nielsen VideoScan is not the complete picture, though, as the numbers do not include sales from Wal-Mart, which generally represents about 40 percent of standard DVD sales.

Another possible explanation for Blu-ray Disc’s comparatively stronger showing is the timing of studio-exclusive titles Live Free or Die Hard, Hairspray and Ratatouille. HD DVD had no comparable blockbuster releases for the month of November.

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The end of HD-DVD
By dl429 on 11/30/2007 2:18:03 PM , Rating: 5
If blu-ray can out sell hd-dvd 3 to 1 over the biggest shopping week of the year despite the fact that the players cost 3x as much what hope is there really for hd-dvd. Walmart and others were practically giving away hd-dvd players at $99 and the still lost in disc sales 3 to 1. It's not looking too promising for the hd-dvd guys, but they will never admit to that.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By littlebitstrouds on 11/30/2007 2:31:12 PM , Rating: 2
OMG look how cheap I can get that... it has to outlast the superior PS2 cause it's that cheap right?

We're talking the same generation of consumers here.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Adsski on 12/10/2007 5:51:20 AM , Rating: 2
I think sometimes it's actually the retailers who also help the consumers decide.

Here in Britain it feels like we already have a winner, and it's blu-ray.

This is due to two factors really, firstly we always get ripped off on price for electrical goods compared to the US, so there aren't any cheap HD-DVD players. It's £199 for the basic Toshiba vs £299 for the PS3, and most consumers find that a no brainer considering all the other stuff the PS3 can do + the kids desperatly want one!

Secondly and more telling is a quick walk around the high street shops, Virging, HMV, Woolworths etc. In every shop i have been in the blu-ray stock on the shelves outnumbers HD-DVD by about 10-1 (If you can even find the HD-DVD!) and this gives a clear message to people considerring moving to high def. What content can i buy for it?

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 3:13:35 PM , Rating: 3
It's called having hd-dvd blinders on. There is always another thing to wait for for hd-dvd supporters. Transformers, $200 players, $99 players, all these things would be the trump card that turned things around quickly in favor of hd-dvd. Yet, blu-ray continues to pull ahead.

Now were told to wait till after Christmas and we will see the true effect of the magic of hd-dvd. Theres always yet another thing to wait for, and every single time it passes, blu-ray increases it's lead.

Welcome to the wonderful world of denial. You need some strong denial in the first place to convince yourself that less is more.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Spuke on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: The end of HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 4:51:33 PM , Rating: 2
I honestly think it is really amusing at this point to see the creativity and denial going on. Theres always another excuse as to why blu-ray is doomed even as the numbers grow and grow in it's favor.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 5:12:49 PM , Rating: 2
actually you missed (and then proved) his point right there with this post. He wasn't supporting hd dvd at all, just pointing out how... enthusiastic bd camp is about evangalizing their fav product

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 5:18:20 PM , Rating: 2
If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

In my opinion, touting superiority with inferior specs, touting inevitable victory with a continual downward sales ratio despite constantly plummeting costs far beyond selling players at a loss, would be the definition about being enthusiastic about evangelizing a product.

This creative analysis is amusing to me. As well as what hd supporters are able to convince themselves of.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 5:32:48 PM , Rating: 2
I like HD-DVD because it is approching mass market adoption much more quickly than blu ray, with apparent (referencing other such threads here) $30 per player BD royalties, it doesn't seem possible that we'll ever see $50 BD players like we did with DVD (this truely spurred DVD adoption).

What I want is for "HD" to become the standard, I see HD-DVD as making this happen and BD delaying this needlessly. I also am having trouble seeing the clear advanatages BD offers my Home Theater. I think you'll find most HD-DVD supporters feel the same way. I'm also confident that if BD group releases an actually affordable BD player that most of us will run out and buy BD players, and the movies we've been missing out on thus far in HD... I know I would. But here I sit waiting, for an affordable BD player that seems unlikely to arrive any time soon.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 5:48:48 PM , Rating: 1
Keep telling yourself that I guess.

It's achieving mass market adoption faster despite the fact that its consistently outsold and falling even further behind?

That is some unusual logic, but if it floats your boat.

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Keeir on 11/30/2007 6:15:04 PM , Rating: 2
What I want is for "HD" to become the standard, I see HD-DVD as making this happen and BD delaying this needlessly.

But despite having cheaper players (100-300 dollars cheaper)
Some good exclusives (Transformers and 300 special features)
"Cheaper" Discs
More options discs (HD DVD+DVD)


Its Blu-Ray thats getting the HD content into homes at a 2-1 or a 3-1 ratio right now. Which is why the HD DVD people are pretty funny.... "Just wait, next year HD DVD is going to sell!!!"

I don't think HD DVD is going to sell well unless Blu-ray goes away... since Blu-Ray is not going to go away...

RE: The end of HD-DVD
By Hawkido on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: The end of HD-DVD
By maverick85wd on 12/2/2007 7:21:48 AM , Rating: 2
I find that funny at least...

vista apparently drove a few of their executives insane lol

I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By deeznuts on 11/30/2007 1:31:42 PM , Rating: 2
I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum, but if you like to keep track of such things, here ya go:

They do link to Home Media Magazine (which is the "source" so I'm told).

RE: I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By jamdunc on 11/30/2007 4:57:10 PM , Rating: 2
Well using that site we can stipulate that:

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending April 8th
WE: BD-62.4% HDD-37.6% YTD: BD-69.4% HDD-30.6%

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 25th
WE: BD-72% HDD-28% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35%

So HD-DVD, even though it's always behind in sales, somehow has a bigger market share in the YTD. Can anyone explain how this has occured?

RE: I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 5:08:23 PM , Rating: 3
The year to date conceivably is an average of the highs and lows to that point.

Since inception for april 8th was 57:43.

Since inception for november 25th 62:38

If you take the year to date and average it on the fourth month of the year it is going to be a less accurate average than on the 12th month of the year.

If you look at the since inception figures, you see steady decline for hd-dvd in the full scope of things.

RE: I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By jamdunc on 12/1/2007 5:01:58 AM , Rating: 2
But that still doesn't answer my question (although it does explain to me what SI stood for :p).

So if as you say on average, which is as accurate for 4 month's as it is for 11, just for a shorter period, HD-DVD has gained Market Share from around 30% upto 35%.

Just because it was 4 months doesn't mean that you can just ignore it as not being accurate. For rhose 4 months they had just over 30% of the YTD market.

So after 11 months they had 35% of the YTD market which in my eyes means they gained market share.

But the since inception figures say they lost market share. Which doesn't agree with the YTD figures.

So am I just being really thick here or is there something i'm missing?

RE: I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By deeznuts on 11/30/2007 5:35:34 PM , Rating: 2
You have to remember, at the beginning of this year, HD DVD was getting killed because of the PS3 launch. I mean slaughtered. If you follow through the summer and through the end of they year, HD DVD had some good weeks, and looked like it was clawing its way back. The last two weeks however it essentially reversed course, which wouldn't be notable (i.e. just normal fluctuation) however it coincided with the cheap HD DVD player and the massive numbers sold.

RE: I know it's a Blu-Ray Forum ...
By timmiser on 11/30/2007 8:59:40 PM , Rating: 2
So where did the VHS/Beta numbers come from? IIRC, Beta had an early lead over VHS in the '70s, not the other way around. Those numbers look made up.

By Chaser on 11/30/2007 1:47:53 PM , Rating: 2
So much for the HD DVD 750,000 number hype as that story also claimed that stand alone Blue Ray players only accounted for like half that number?

How many times on this forum have a I read something to the effect that "most PS3 buyers don't care or know it also plays Blue Ray movies?"

Um I think PS3 owners are buying and renting Blue Ray movies.

RE: Myths
By Spuke on 11/30/2007 3:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
Actually there was a survey done by NPD that found that 40% of PS3 owners didn't know they had a bluray player.

RE: Myths
By Chaser on 11/30/2007 7:25:46 PM , Rating: 2
You need to wish for 90% then if there's going to be any chance for HD-DVD to succeed. The numbers are what they are I'm sorry its not working out like you'd hope.

RE: Myths
By BansheeX on 12/1/2007 5:11:09 AM , Rating: 2
If that's true, then that makes the numbers even more impressive. Imagine what will happen when even half of that 60% eventually figures out that it can play blu-ray.

RE: Myths
By Chaser on 12/3/2007 8:10:04 AM , Rating: 2
True. The little bonus item of their PS3.

"It has happened before and it will happen again."
By Grast on 11/30/2007 1:32:32 PM , Rating: 2
"It has happened before and it will happen again."

Unless BR gets a player in the same price range as HDDVD, the same thing is going to happen in the VHS/BetaMax war. The lower priced player will always win. I believe that BR is doing well thus far primarily due to the BR only title that are being released. That is the one feather in the BR camp. They have a lot of good movies.

I suppose that I could be wrong with the war if BR can continue to produce exclusive good movies.


By littlebitstrouds on 11/30/2007 2:22:33 PM , Rating: 3
I anyone else sick of people comparing Beta with Blu-ray? Ok it's the same company... but 30 years later. If people consider it being a superior technology a negative similarity, well that's just dumb.

Never mind that the price isn't even yet, people today are different consumers. No longer does the area store clerk's knowledge of the product decide what you're going to buy when you can go home and Google it. People will pay for better technology because it seems like a better investment, especially when they just shelled out the cash for the new TV anyway, and you're convincing them that their old technology (DVD) is crap and they need to upgrade to a new standard.

By littlebitstrouds on 11/30/2007 2:26:51 PM , Rating: 2
*Side note*
I just yesterday herd a Bestbuy manager tell a couple that "HDMI is the step up from 1080p." This kinda thing makes me so mad. I wish there was more quality control for the knowledge of some of the people asking you to spend 3k on something.

RE: "It has happened before and it will happen again."
By TomZ on 11/30/2007 2:38:01 PM , Rating: 1
Well I personally blame the electronics industry for doing such a poor job in coming to technical agreement on next-gen display formats. The situation today is very confusing, even for people who are technically inclined, let alone those who are not.

By TomZ on 11/30/2007 3:03:24 PM , Rating: 1
In other words, what I'm trying to say is that if the technology is not simple enough that an electronics store manager cannot understand it, then there's little home for Average Joe to understand it.

By InsidiousAngel on 11/30/2007 1:33:26 PM , Rating: 2
Unless I missed it in the article, but a friend of mine who had no plans on buying a PS3, bought one during the sales and walked out with 15 free BluRay movies. I would be curious to know if the 3-to-1 included said promotions or actual sales.

RE: Promotions
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 1:37:57 PM , Rating: 2
All movies that your friend got to pick up in the store (i.e. not officially bundled) likely counted as BD sales. So the walmart sale did help bd hdm sales stats.

RE: Promotions
By OxBow on 11/30/2007 1:44:50 PM , Rating: 5
No, because the article clearly states that WalMart figures aren't included. They won't be reported for a couple more weeks.

Or it could be...
By atwood7fan on 11/30/2007 1:35:03 PM , Rating: 2
The fact that most of the good new High-Def movies out are in Blu-ray. I bought my dad one of the HD-A2s during the walmart sale but am having a very hard time finding good new releases in the format.
Plus, many people are ignorant and I think you will find a lot of HD movies on both sides being returned because they bought the wrong format.

RE: Or it could be...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 2:10:28 PM , Rating: 2
There are a ton of great movies on both sides of the isle... I have/suppport HD-DVD, but on the BD side I like

POTC, Fifth Element, Spider Movies, the brothers grimm (this can be imported from Japan, but Toshiba excluded HD audio for some reason with their master), host of Fox movies.

HD-DVD has:
Matrix, Batman Begin, Shrek, star trek, bourn movies, mummy movies, host of other Paramount/Dreamworks/Universal flicks.

Try doing a search for "hd dvd" on, I'm sure you'll find oodls of movies you and your father will enjoy.

RE: Or it could be...
By atwood7fan on 11/30/2007 4:14:56 PM , Rating: 2
Those aren't exactly what I would call new releases; Give me Spiderman 3 or Pirates of the Caribbean 3 or something like that and I will be happy

RE: Or it could be...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 4:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
How is the newly remastered star trek (i.e. all new fx and audio) not a new realease? Same goes for Shrek the 3rd (just realease to home video) and the upcomming release of Bourne Ultimatum. I guess if these aren't your favorate style of movie that's one thing, but they are new releases that's for sure.

useless information
By y2chuck on 11/30/2007 4:20:46 PM , Rating: 2
The data from Nielsen VideoScan is not the complete picture, though, as the numbers do not include sales from Wal-Mart, which generally represents about 40 percent of standard DVD sales.

So Walmart numbers aren't included AND there is no correlation between what percentage of BD/HD sales come from Walmart. Pretty much makes this article useless.

What if Walmart accounts for 80% of all BD/HDD sales and ALL of those sales were HD movies?

RE: useless information
By JSK on 11/30/2007 6:07:27 PM , Rating: 2
Rofl... all those sales were HD movies? Even hypothetically you are grasping at big fat straws when Walmart was giving away 10, count um up, 10 BD discs per PS3 purchase.

If you honestly dont think BD outsold HD at Walmart that week I have some land in the arctic Id like to sell you.

RE: useless information
By MrTeal on 11/30/2007 11:58:14 PM , Rating: 2
Anchorman Bob:
...And with 60% of the polls reporting, incumbent A has 70% lead over challenger B. We're declaring A the winner of this election.

Idiot Pundit:
...Oh yeah? What if the remaining 40% of the polls came back 100% in favor of B? He could still win. This information is useless.

Inferences can be made from a sample without knowing the makeup of the whole population. It happens every day, and is incredibly useful. Chances are, unless Toshiba and Microsoft have hired goons in every Walmart punching people in the kidneys for picking up a BR movie, then the totals there will be close to the totals most other places. Exactly the same? Probably not. But probably pretty close.

Another possible reason for the increase BR sales
By SithSolo1 on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 7:50:53 PM , Rating: 3

Hd-dvd fan A makes massive generalisation about two ficticious families by basicaly pulling a silly story out of his behind.

Blu-ray backer B laughs at hd-dvd fan A's little made up fantasy scenario and points to the 11 month sales slump for hd-dvd, which is only getting wider.

By timmiser on 11/30/2007 9:05:29 PM , Rating: 3
Doesn't really matter.

Mom A is hot. Mom B is not.

Any questions?

Nielsen HiDef Sales Numbers
By superdynamite on 11/30/2007 1:39:59 PM , Rating: 3
Nielsen/VideoScan Weekly Sales Numbers

------------------------------------------------- ----------

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 25th (Includes Black Friday)

WE: BD-72% HDD-28% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-62% HDD-38%

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 18th

WE: BD-66% HDD-34% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-61% HDD-39%

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 11th

WE: BD-65% HDD-35% YTD: BD-65% HDD-35% SI: BD-61% HDD-39%

Nielsen/VideoScan Numbers ending November 4th

WE: BD-71% HDD-29% YTD: BD-64% HDD-36% SI: BD-61% HDD-39%

RE: Nielsen HiDef Sales Numbers
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:27:51 PM , Rating: 2
heres most of the year to date

Week Ending Blu-Ray HD-DVD

11/18 66% 34%
11/11 65% 35%
11/04 71% 29%
10/28 55% 45%
10/21 51% 49%
10/14 71% 29%
10/07 68% 32%
09/30 54% 46%
09/23 63% 37%
09/16 61% 39%
09/09 60% 40%
09/02 56% 44%
08/26 68% 32%
08/19 71% 29%
08/12 66% 34%
08/05 62% 38%
07/29 66% 34%
07/22 74% 26%
07/15 61% 39%
07/08 66% 34%
07/01 65% 35%
06/24 70% 30%
06/17 64% 36%
06/10 66% 34%
06/03 61% 39%
05/27 69% 31%
05/20 58% 42%
05/13 62% 38%
05/06 60% 40%
04/29 71% 29%
04/22 52% 48%
04/15 61% 39%
04/08 62.4% 37.6%

Not sure how relevant these numbers really are
By BigDH01 on 11/30/2007 5:11:08 PM , Rating: 2
1) They don't include Wal-Mart

2) According to this:

HD-DVD did really well on Amazon that week.

By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 5:37:28 PM , Rating: 2
yeah, hd dvd owned amazon that particular week... We'll have to wait for NPD which will be a while.

Big Deal
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:57:04 PM , Rating: 2
whats the big deal about this article Blu-Ray always outsells HD-DVD every week so why would this week be any different

By SiliconAddict on 12/1/2007 1:17:16 AM , Rating: 2
I'm willing to be the influx of cheap HD DVD players will change this. Plus you have some pretty big movies \ sets coming out in December the least of which is BSG Season 1 in high def this coming Tuesday. It is the sole reason I picked up a HDDVD player off of Amazon this week.
Also as sony gets more games on the PS3 watch as sales migrate from movies to games on the PS3 which is going to also drop sales.

My A3 is sad
By gus6464 on 12/1/2007 11:52:03 AM , Rating: 2
I got an A3 the weekend of Nov 2 when walmart was unloading the A2 at $99. Paid $199 for it and got 5 movies right away (2 in box, 3 in store). After watching the 5 movies it hasn't been turned on ever since. And the sad thing is it's only going to be turned on for Bourne Ultimatum and Battlestar Galactica S1 for the rest of the year. Whereas my PS3 gets a lot more movie playtime.

Ohh wait I did turn it on the other day to upgrade the firmware but it told me to go to hell because it didn't want to be upgraded.

Ohh and the Dolby Digital Plus soundtrack on transformers hd-dvd sucks compared to the regular dvd one. Ratatouille on BD had more bass with it's PCM soundtrack. You would expect a 50 ton tank thrown in the air would rattle the room, but it doesn't. And it was nice of Paramount to give us the crappy excuse of blaming the no TrueHD track in the hd-dvd on "it cannot fit on the disc".

By thesafetyisoff on 12/1/2007 11:54:55 AM , Rating: 2
Porn was a deciding factor in the Beta/VHS war. And it favors HD-DVD. I think it will be less of a factor now that people get it from the Internet, but it still affects sales.

Also, if & when cheap HD-DVD players are released for Xbox I think the numbers will be influenced as well.

This battle is a long way from being over.

By PitViper007 on 12/1/2007 9:10:48 PM , Rating: 2
I find that interesting considering how many A2's were sold over the week prior to Thanksgiving. I've been pretty adamant about not jumping onto either format until there was a clear winner, but I have to admit, I almost bit on that $99 A2.

I feel that there are still some problems with HD-DVD that keep me from jumping in (even with their lower player prices).

Until Venturer released their player, Toshiba has been the ONLY player manufacturer. If you look at BD, there are at least 6 different manufacturers making their players. This doesn't seem to be anything that people are talking about at all. Most people seem to concentrate on studio exclusivity, and while that is telling, doesn't give the full picture.

On the matter of exclusivity, I don't think that is as important as how many total titles there are available for each format. Again, HD-DVD isn't quite keeping up in that department either. In doing a quick check at I find that there are 390 total listings for HD-DVD and 457 total for BD. Granted, there are a few overlaps, but the number of titles are pretty close to that stated. And yet compared to how many DVDs are listed (65349), neither format has enough titles to even begin to take over as the "format of choice".

So at this point, I still have to say that there's no point in choosing a side, for me at least. I would hope there there would be a clear winner soon, as I really would like to get into Hi-Def, but I still don't see it happening.

Its Confirmed
By mikefarinha on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
A week early...
By masher2 on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: A week early...
By TomZ on 11/30/2007 1:31:55 PM , Rating: 4
Also, I would think that a lot of HD-DVD players being purchased this time of the year will stay in the box and not be opened until Christmas, at least in the US. Therefore, a lot of the effect of these sales may not come until early next year.

And of course, the same would be true for Blu-ray as well.

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 1:36:22 PM , Rating: 2
This was exactly my thought, the effect of the HD-DVD sales will be felt after christmas. Additionally BD format has more recent big releases which helps. Januaray will prove an interesting month.

RE: A week early...
By Chaser on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: A week early...
By TomZ on 11/30/2007 2:13:10 PM , Rating: 1
I think you missed the point. So here it is again - suppose I receive a shiny new HD-DVD player for Christmas, which of course I open up on 12/25. Supposing I set it up right away, what do you think the next think I'm going to do with respect to my new player? I'm probably going to buy or rent some HD-DVD movies.

RE: A week early...
By Chaser on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: A week early...
By TomZ on 11/30/2007 2:35:22 PM , Rating: 4
If you read my post a couple up, you'll see I already acknowledged the same would be true for Blu-ray. Since I don't care which side "wins" (or if any side wins), it's hard for me to really engage in "wishful thinking." I don't even own a player nor do I intend to purchase one in the near future. I prefer to waste my free time here at DT instead. :o)

RE: A week early...
By Chaser on 11/30/2007 2:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
You got me there Tom :) That makes two of us :)

RE: A week early...
By Guyver on 11/30/2007 2:40:10 PM , Rating: 2
Do you suppose that the 10 free Blu-Ray movies given away during the Wal-Mart Black Friday counted as sales since they still had to be rung up? Mail in offers and movies packaged with players obviously do not count, but certainly 10 free Blu-Ray movies per 80GB PS3 counted. No?

RE: A week early...
By geddarkstorm on 11/30/2007 2:57:01 PM , Rating: 2
Except the survey didn't include Wal-Mart sales, so it's a moot point then. Of course, it'd be very interesting to see the ratio of sales coming from Wal-mart, given how low they dropped the HD-DVD player prices.

RE: A week early...
By TomZ on 11/30/2007 3:06:51 PM , Rating: 1
I agree, but since Wal-Mart sells PS3 as well as the HD-DVD players, I doubt Wal-Mart's numbers would be too far off from the other broader numbers.

RE: A week early...
By xsilver on 11/30/2007 4:28:28 PM , Rating: 2
Not being american; could someone just quickly explain the economic sense of having a big sale day (black friday) just a month before christmas? from the consumer's point of view its great but from a shops point of view??

btw. A lot of other places have boxing day which is the day after christmas to have big sales. It seems to make more sense because the shops need to clear out their excess stock from christmas.

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 4:47:59 PM , Rating: 2
Tempt customers into stores with great sales, then while they're there hopefully they'll buy not discounted items with decent margins. The reason why it's called "black friday" is because this day more than any other helps stores get back into the black.

RE: A week early...
By Keeir on 11/30/2007 6:23:41 PM , Rating: 2
To expand the other guys response a bit..

it has something to do with the US mentality of spending X number of dollars in a christmas season (rather than find the best value). Since there is a limited pile of X out there, stores compete to grab as much of the X pie as possible. IE, you can go to Wal-Mart, Target, Fyre's, Video Only, Best Buy, Circuit City, Costco, and more in my area for normal home theatre... if a store is not running something special, I am not going to even check it out so there is no way to make a sale. After christmas, people are going to spend Y, which is much much smaller than X, no matter what sale event is going on...

RE: A week early...
By timmiser on 11/30/2007 8:43:16 PM , Rating: 2
To play the devil's advocate, how does it make more sense to have the big sales AFTER Christmas (boxing day) when the average consumer has already spent a significant amount of their money on Christmas presents in the weeks prior?

RE: A week early...
By aos007 on 11/30/2007 9:59:07 PM , Rating: 2
Whether it makes sense or not, shops are chock-full of people on Boxing day and many people line up overnight in front of stores. It makes all the sense from store's point of view (clear up the inventory at low or no margin or even at a loss because keeping it for many months afterwards (when sales are very slow) is going to end up costing even more).

People probably set aside some money for Boxing day sale. Or more likely, load it up on their credit cards. I imagine there's a lot of impulse shopping on that day and a lot of regret when the CC bill comes next year (Christmas shopping = possibly budgeted, Boxing day shopping = most likely unplanned).

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 10:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds much like black friday, only the purpose of black friday is to sproose up your books, not clear inventory.

RE: A week early...
By timmiser on 12/1/2007 1:35:24 AM , Rating: 2
So, by your description, the stores are unloading products that they couldn't sell prior to Christmas at rock bottom prices. Down here they call that, "After Christmas Sales".

RE: A week early...
By blaster5k on 11/30/2007 2:37:30 PM , Rating: 2
That's true.

I also wonder if HD-DVD buyers are more likely to rent than buy their own movies. People who are willing to pony up the extra cash for Blu-Ray might be more willing to spend on movies too. It's hard to say though. I know I only rent. Formats are always changing and I don't watch the same movies enough times to justify the cost of buying.

RE: A week early...
By av911 on 11/30/2007 4:52:55 PM , Rating: 2
I got on the $99 deal from Walmart, on the same day, bought Transformers HDDVD. Joined Netflix and started renting HDDVDs. So, my whole collection consists of 1 HDDVD title.

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 5:11:02 PM , Rating: 2
Did you send in for the 5 free? there is some decent selection... I've become an HDM junkie my self, I'm only buying standard def any more if there is no hd option.

RE: A week early...
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:39:26 PM , Rating: 2
I got on the $99 deal from Walmart, on the same day, bought Transformers HDDVD. Joined Netflix and started renting HDDVDs. So, my whole collection consists of 1 HDDVD title.

that is a pretty typical statment from a HD-DVD owner which is why netflix rents more HD-DVD's

but you have to think that studio's really care about how many movies they're selling not players, granted there might be a little influence, but if sales arent there theyre gonna stick with the player that sells more

besides not only is blu-ray selling about 3 times more movies, theyre also selling 3 times more players (including PS3)

RE: A week early...
By Parhel on 11/30/2007 1:49:26 PM , Rating: 5
I don't trust the numbers that either camp provides. I don't think that they are lying, but the premise always seems to be skewed.

Why pick "Black Friday week," for example? I actually think this is the first time I've ever even heard that phrase. But here, they present it as if "number of units sold during Black Friday week" is a normal metric. Why not "units sold on Black Friday?"

Wasn't there a recent free disc promotion that may account for a large number of those sales? Are freebies considered sales? How much would the inclusion of Wal-Mart change the picture? My list of questions goes on and on. These numbers provided by the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray groups always seem very fishy to me.

RE: A week early...
By masher2 on 11/30/2007 1:57:47 PM , Rating: 2
Freebies are not considered sales. And though I'm a long-term HD-DVD supporter, I have to say the figures provided by the Blu Ray camp may carry a bit of "spin", but are technically accurate.

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 2:13:27 PM , Rating: 2
It depends on the type of freebie I think... Bundled won't, but what about in store freebies that are rung through the register similarly to a bogo sale? We already know bogo's count as extra sales even though you get a disc free, no reason to think "choose 5 free hd/dvd, or 10 free blu ray discs in store" wouldn't be counted. Personally that type of tallying tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth because of the likely hood a customer is going to take their free movies and sit until the war is over. But that seems to be the way things are.

RE: A week early...
By blaster5k on 11/30/2007 3:47:28 PM , Rating: 2
If that's true, then the 10 free (store bought, picked yourself) Blu-Ray movies deal with the PS3 might have helped Blu-Ray's numbers quite a bit. HD-DVD only had as many as 3 free that you could pick out in store -- correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: A week early...
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 4:05:01 PM , Rating: 2
that's pretty much accurate, how much that sale helps depends on how many people decided they could afford to drop 5 bills though... I know I couldn't :(

RE: A week early...
By JSK on 11/30/2007 6:05:34 PM , Rating: 2
read the article, it didnt include walmarts sales...

RE: A week early...
By timmiser on 11/30/2007 8:47:14 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't really matter because most stores were offering free movies on black friday.

The point is that there is so much about these reports that we really don't know and there are so many paramaters involved as pointed out in these posts, that it is hard to put too much emphasis on any report.

RE: A week early...
By cubby1223 on 11/30/2007 3:39:38 PM , Rating: 5
But these numbers are from Nielsen/Videoscan, *not* from Sony

RE: A week early...
By Guyver on 11/30/2007 2:37:44 PM , Rating: 2
Very good point. Easy to overlook what should otherwise be obvious.

RE: A week early...
By cubby1223 on 11/30/2007 3:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
It's the week *after* Black Friday that one would expect to start seeing a large surge in HD-DVD sales.

It's the week *after* the $99 player sale on <br>November 2 that one would expect to start seeing a large surge in HD DVD (no hyphen) sales. We can play the waiting game all we want, but look at the movie releases coming up in December, then especially the lineups in January. It's not fair competition, Blu-ray is going to increase their sales lead even more so.

RE: A week early...
By EclipsedAurora on 11/30/2007 11:29:16 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. So far the only HD-DVD software worth to buy is The Transformers

All others good moives belongs to BluRay. It's not surprise that sales of BluRay discs outperform HD-DVD by a great margin!

RE: A week early...
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:43:35 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. So far the only HD-DVD software worth to buy is The Transformers

All others good moives belongs to BluRay. It's not surprise that sales of BluRay discs outperform HD-DVD by a great margin!

i almost agree with that statement i count 8 exclusive to hd-dvd, and that counting the exclusive WB's which are going to soon be released to BLU-RAY

RE: A week early...
By deeznuts on 11/30/2007 4:17:14 PM , Rating: 2
It's the week *after* Black Friday that one would expect to start seeing a large surge in HD-DVD sales.

You must have missed the proclamations of 100,000 Toshiba A2 sold the previous weeks to BF then? That is why people was expecting to see an uptick, but it's going the other way the last two weeks.

RE: A week early...
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:51:42 PM , Rating: 2
ni do wish HD-DVD would just concede

geez its like the Bush vs. Gore elections at least that was close

i dont want HD-DVD to concede cause i back Blu-Ray, (its because its pretty obvious, who's winning, even Ray Charles can see the writing on the wall)

it's because alot of people are going to be throwing out alot of money, on this format war no matter whos wins alot of people are gonna lose

RE: A week early...
By SiliconAddict on 12/1/2007 1:21:38 AM , Rating: 2
My money is on that most of those players are x-mas gifts. At most people are going to buy only a couple movies. I'm willing to be that most are netflixing many of the movies they want to watch. I was on blockbuster's website and 80% of their HD DVD's are in LONG WAIT or SHORT WAIT status. People just blew a wad on the player. They aren't going to drop another $200 on movies right off the bat.

By xfrgtr on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
By xfrgtr on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
By retrospooty on 11/30/2007 9:21:12 PM , Rating: 1
well thats a very mature outlook you have. /rolls eyes.

Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By superdynamite on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 1:39:31 PM , Rating: 3
Your exlusive studio comparison seems to be just a touch wrong.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By masher2 on 11/30/2007 2:02:08 PM , Rating: 3
Quite a few things are "a touch wrong" with his post. Regarding just the studio figures, at present there are 39 total studios with BD releases, and 41 studios with HD-DVD releases.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 2:17:27 PM , Rating: 5
True, I picked on that one because he made it so obvious that he ignored universal as a studio... Then he explicitly broke out sony pictures (1 studio) into several components which on their own really don't count for much as indipendant studios these days.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By DesertCat on 11/30/2007 2:30:28 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that Warner is not Blue-Ray exclusive (yet another error in the post). Warner is format neutral and releases movies in both formats. The Blue-ray camp keeps hoping that that they will go exclusive but they have not done that.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Spuke on 11/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By BansheeX on 11/30/2007 9:00:44 PM , Rating: 3
Not sure what posts you're looking at, but this thread has been fairly civil on both sides. Even the post you're responding to is using hard statistics rather than opinions and isn't exactly teeming with insanity or elitism. The only senseless diversion of insults has been you.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By BansheeX on 11/30/2007 5:20:50 PM , Rating: 5
Those errors aside, I think the post is mostly correct and at the very least points out the irony of blu-ray/betamax analogies made by HD-DVD fans. In industry support, sales figures, and technological characteristics, HD-DVD actually has more in common with betamax than blu-ray does. WHO was pushing what back then isn't really an important correlation for predicting the current war's outcome, but Sony haters would love for it to be.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By michal1980 on 11/30/2007 5:36:15 PM , Rating: 2
ok show me that triple layer disk?

oh right its not even apporved yet.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 5:39:36 PM , Rating: 5
It wasn't?

Hmmmmmm..... Perhaps some research prior to posting is in order? Approved but not in production... Yes technically BD could add another layer, but seriously people... deminishing returns, ever hear of it? Honestly I don't even think HD DVD even needs this update, but that's just me and my experience with warner hd dvd media.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 7:52:24 PM , Rating: 5
Deminishing returns... Seriously, you don't need 50GB to do HD Video, you don't need 100.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By daftrok on 11/30/2007 8:37:54 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, you do. You must realize that though the movie is 1080p, the extra content is not. With 100 GB, EVERYTHING can be in 1080p. Also those interested in buying TV episodes in HD won't have to deal with 5 DVDs for one season and can be content with 2 100 GB Blu ray discs and one 100 GB Blu ray disc for extra content.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By michal1980 on 11/30/2007 6:10:11 PM , Rating: 2
it was't approved. I did my research. that story was just WRONG. sorry to burst your bubble.

it was based on a rumor that the steering commiety made some statements about a 3layer disk. Which it turned out they did. That it needed more reasrch. And so far they've been quite about it, and no one is mass produceing the disks. nor are any movies supposd to come out on it.

And even moreso. No one knows if current players could READ Them.

so no you do some resreach before you go off on some hd-dvd fan-boi rant, that uses daily-tech as supported by toshiba as a valid sourch of hd-dvd information

By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 7:51:28 PM , Rating: 2
Provide links? I've seen about a million and a half off of google saying it's approved, not just Daily Tech... If you're going to burst bubbles, you need to do that with actual proof, not just the word of a fan boy.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By BansheeX on 11/30/2007 8:10:27 PM , Rating: 2
Three problems I have with 51gb HD-DVD discs.

1) It may end up requiring a new player.

2) It is a fairly late revision and I am not going to double dip on new titles using it once 51gb discs with an actual audio upgrade over DVD start coming out.

3) It has ZERO effect on the single layer capacity, which is VERY important for recordables. Remember how much multi-layer DVD-Rs cost over single layers, and remember how burn quality was worse. Remember how scratches had a more pronounced effect on readability? 25gb single layer discs are far more appealing than 15gb single layer.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 5:54:40 PM , Rating: 3
The extra space on a triple layer hd-dvd is a nice improvement, however it still doesn't negate blu ray's advantage. The bitrate is still far higher and it will always be capable of superior output to hd-dvd, extra storage or not.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 9:40:29 PM , Rating: 2
I would really like to see *any* kind of evidence that this higher bitrate BD people talk about is going to have any kind of affect on video quality. Every review I've seen of a dual format disc has ended up with exactly identical video and audio quality. More over, for every stellar BD exclusive I've found, I've found an equally stellar HD exclusive. Both formats are more than capable of completly blowing away even the most ardent critic. HD DVD just happens to do it at a better price point.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 11/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 12/1/2007 1:53:02 AM , Rating: 2
Except paramount before going red used to re-encode everything at a higher bitrate specifically for blu ray... Guess what, the results where no better than what you got for HD DVD... I'm sorry but the higher bit rate spec has thus far utterly failed materialize into a substantial plus for BD camp... Harp about specs all you want, but I'm not convinced until I see an encoding that simply can not be replicated by HD DVD.

By SavagePotato on 12/1/2007 3:54:33 PM , Rating: 2
It's simple math, end of the story.

If you want to lie to yourself that less is more go for it.

For myself, I am not interested in "adequite", I want the best possible. There isn't even a debate as to the fact that is blu-ray.

Saving $100 on a player at this early adoption stage is not enough to make me settle for less. Aparently based on sales figures, it isn't enough for the 2 to 1 majority either.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By cmdrdredd on 11/30/2007 10:08:15 PM , Rating: 2
Then Sony releases the 100GB Blu-Ray media. HD DVD is the INFERIOR media, period. The format as a whole means little when there is a superior media on the competition.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Targon on 12/1/2007 9:51:28 AM , Rating: 2
And it doesn't matter what the capacity is if the quality of the material doesn't need it. Extra features and such mean NOTHING to most people except the deleted scenes and bloopers. Making of features and such are normally ignored by the vast majority of people.

For a game console, the capacity is more important, but if you don't have a game console(which is the vast majority of the population of the world), it really means NOTHING at this point in time.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Chaser on 12/1/2007 12:44:56 PM , Rating: 3
More of this we don't need it rhetoric. Who are you to dictate what everyone might want or could need in the future on my movie disk sir? the only limits are someone's creativity and inspiration. But you like many think that the lesser capacity is "good enough" for everyone else so that soemone coutning pennies and clipping coupons at Walmart will be able ot save a whole $50.00 on their incredible High Def experience. Once again we get this sinking ship methodology of superiority.

And to add more to your brilliance you make the claim that having a higher, upgraded, (I think we are talking about the next generation of disk media here on a techie website) data source to hold gaming content and data for retail and rental outlets. Well let me tell you something genius, it might mean "Nothing" to you but 6.7 million people (and growing) obviously do care about a superior format (over 4GBs) to hold gaming content.

Drink your "if a man had wings" koolaid but the rest of us are excited about a format that is capable of MORE rather than settling for less.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Gio6518 on 11/30/2007 11:30:00 PM , Rating: 2
41 studios with HD-DVD releases

yeah right name them

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By soydios on 11/30/2007 2:06:33 PM , Rating: 2
just because you're throwing out figures does not meant that they are relevant, directly comparable, or even true. please provide sources to back them up.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Guyver on 11/30/2007 2:36:59 PM , Rating: 3
The problem with using percentages is you can hide the fact that this format war has been ridiculously small. It sounds more impressive to say 70% rather than 70 cents to a dollar. Until someone can demonstrate that this format war is worthy of war-like proportions, then this is simply over-hyped. Marketshare is pointless when you realize this is more of an ongoing skirmish between the two. You should have included DVD marketshare compared to BD & HD-DVD.

As for your capacity data, that's all well and good but both Sony and Toshiba have come out and said you only need 25GB to do a HD movie. All that extra capacity is only good for "superbit" versions of a movie or for PCs wanting to burn data.

As for your exclusive manufacturer support, you forgot to add that LG and Samsung have both went from being exclusive to Blu-Ray supporters to now being fence sitters.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Chaser on 11/30/2007 2:53:47 PM , Rating: 1
Well they are obviously significant enough for you to chime in on something.

1) 25GB to do a movie? And that means what exactly? I'm not a lossless audio movie quality genius but higher capacity, once again, has its merits in any application Ione would think? Or are we back to that "less is better" reasoning yet again?

2) Exclusive player producers? If they are how is this significant exactly? And I think using the term "fence siting" is a bit of spin. How about they are producing BOTH players? Sound fair to you?

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Spuke on 11/30/2007 3:39:57 PM , Rating: 2
Or are we back to that "less is better" reasoning yet again?
It's not a "less is better" reasoning. It's a more or less doesn't matter argument. If both studios say that 25GB is good for HD then having more space does not constitute better or worse, it just is. Is a 750GB hard drive "better" than a 120GB one? Of course not. One simply has more space than the other.

If that's what you're looking for, fine, but if not, that's fine too. Considering that both players use similar hardware and output the same quality picture then either is a matter of choice and no one is stupid for going either route.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 6:02:14 PM , Rating: 1
Is one of the new Hitachi 1 terabyte hard drives that has a better transfer rate as well better than a 500gb hard drive that has a bit slower performance as well. It sure as heck is.

Your basing your assumption on the misconception that blu ray and hd-dvd have identical specs outside storage. Not true. Thats why movies like pirates of the Caribbean are superior to what would be possible on hd-dvd.

It may not be enough that you feel it's noticeable, but nonetheless it is reality, and it is "better"

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Master Kenobi on 11/30/2007 10:28:09 PM , Rating: 3
Pirates could easily have been done on HD DVD, the only reason it's exclusive to blu-ray is thanks to Disney thinking blu-ray has some sort of unbreakable copy protection, which it doesn't.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 11/30/2007 10:34:43 PM , Rating: 2
It could have, and it wouldn't have looked or sounded as good. The pirates movies use up most of a 50 gig disc and the bitrate tops 45mbps at points of the movie. Hd-dvd is incapable of that.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 12/1/2007 2:01:36 AM , Rating: 2
Do you bother reading the reviews for HD-DVD media? Pirates could easily have been done on HD DVD, with exactly the same quality results. I do take the time to read blu ray media reviews, and always stop to watch demo's in stores (yes, not the best but since I can't afford a $500 experiment...) So far I have yet to see or read of anything done on blu ray that couldn't have been replicated on HD DVD at *exactly* the same quality.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 12/1/2007 4:01:22 PM , Rating: 3
I realy don't give a flying leap what reviews say. The math is simple.

Why is an hd-dvd looking better than a dvd? because it's putting out up to a 30mbps bitrate when the dvd is putting out something like 6mbps. The dvd is compressed heavily to acheive that.

The hd-dvd has to be compressed more to fit within the confines of 30mbps as opposed to blu ray which is yes, 50% greater at 48mbps.

It's better, end of story.

furthermore, you can get into a blu ray player for $399, in fact if you sign up for a sonystyle credit card, you get a $100 discount and can get the ps3 for $299. Then you have a blu ray player that is as upgradeable as it gets. For a hell of a lot less than $500. If for some reason blu-ray didn't work out, you can ebay the ps3. Or god forbid, play some games on it.

That $299 hd a30 isn't getting ebayed or used for anything other than playing what movies you already have should hd-dvd take a dive.

Which is the bigger risk?

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 12/1/2007 8:19:09 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, in real life it isn't that simple, in fact it's much like saying the highest MHz CPU will always win... If that's the case the P4 wouldn't have been pwned... Now I'm not saying BD is in as bad a situation as the P4, just that higher bit rates isn't always going to = better picture + audio. If you choose not to beleive that, then fine, continue over paying...

Further, the PS3 is Profile 1.0 with no plans to update this as far as anyone knows. My $130 HD-A2 is equivilent to a Profile 2.0 BD player, seeing as profile 1.1 costs $500, well I guess do the math...

I guess if you choose to ignore what actual users (professional reviewers no less) have to say about the HD DVD v. Blu Ray quality of experience thats your business. Just don't expect everyone else in the world to choose to remain so uninformed about their product purchasing choices.

By SavagePotato on 12/2/2007 4:15:24 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry but it does work that way.

We are not talking about processors we are talking about video playback.

No matter how much sunshine you pump up your own behind mathematics win in this case. Assuming a quality compression job for both sides the one that just flat out has more data being spat out is going to look better, and sound better. End of story.

I don't care how many BS articles you read in favor of hd-dvd that are going to lie to you and tell you that you can do more with less.

If you compress both exactly the same, same bitrate they will look the same. If you do a superior job with a higher bitrate it looks better thats all there is to it.

I realy don't give a rats ass like I say about what the reviewers have said about current releases they have chosen to compare. It's simple math and thats the end of it.

When it comes to a choice if I'm going to pay $100 more for the format that has far more possibilites versus the "good enough" solution, there isn't a question. I don't do "good enough"

As to the ps3 and profile 1.1, sounds like your riding the fud wagon there. It will support 1.1, and it will support 2.0. When they decide to put that into the firmware that is. Bar none it's the most upgradeable player period. In the meantime I certainly am not sweating over not being able to see picture in picture.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 12/1/2007 8:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
In fact here's some food for thought, reviews of Sleepy Hallow (Paramount) prior to Paramount going red. Please note, Paramount *did actually* remaster for BD at higher bit rates prior to going hd exclusive.



In this particular case, sleepy hallow actually ended up being better in HD DVD which is an outlire... What this tells me is whoever was in charge of mastering the BD copy screwed up, but it also tells me BD's higher bit rate couldn't save a shoddy job. Next we have the italian job, Paramount yet again. I'm picking on Paramount since they did take full advantage of BD higher bit rates for their BD masters.



Exactly the same quality.

For Aeon Flux, HD DVD again scored higher this time in the video quality category:



So what was that about the math being so clear? If a higher bitrate automatically means better results, why is it release optimised for BD's higher bit rates are having such a hard time against HD DVD?

By Locutus465 on 12/1/2007 8:52:58 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By SavagePotato on 12/2/2007 4:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
You are going off some reviewer that is making a judgement call based on what he sees. Thats putting alot of faith in someone elses eyes.

All things being equal you can produce a superior presentation with more space and a higher bitrate, arguing otherwise is just being silly.

If it's not something you, or some reveiwer can personaly see the difference from I realy don't care. Were talking about infant technology with minor adoption. Given time both will be in the dirt cheap price arena. So why in this early adopter stage should I support the technology that simply is inferior to save $100

I can't see a reason, and hence I support the stronger technology.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Locutus465 on 12/2/2007 4:42:41 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, yes I will because this reviewer has a *strong* understanding of the many technical aspects of what makes a good visual and audio presentation. Paticularly, the reviewers over at aren't biased by costs or check lists of features and specs, all they're looking for is how strong the resulting presentation is, and they do of course tie in a quick review of what they thought of the content as well.

What all the evidence I've presented suggests here, is that there is nothing that can be done on blu ray but not HD DVD. Both offer entirely equivilent color rendition, black levels, contrast as well as audio depth and variations in subtlty and intensity.

Where there $200 price advantage comes into play in my eyes, is in getting the average consumer to stop buying regular dvd's and start buying high def content. No matter what the current sales delta is, you can be assured that currently HDM penetration is so small that it's not even a blip on the radar. In order for HDM to start being a consequential technology, it has to become affordable to the masses... As of right now, it looks like that's HD DVD and not Blu Ray.

By SavagePotato on 12/2/2007 4:53:25 PM , Rating: 2
Hi def digest.

Hahaha, aka hd-dvd fud central...

Ok honestly beleive what you like, less is more hd-dvd can magicaly produce a better picture and sound with less space or bitrate. The world is flat all that jazz.

Hd will penetrate the market when it's time, I am not antsy enough to support crap technology because it has a short term price lead (which is artificialy propetuated by toshiba selling at massive loss I might add).

I would say the opposite, HD-DVD is in the way, if it didn't exist more people would be adopting and blu-ray would be dropping faster and faster. How you rationalise the inferior technology with a 2 to 1 sales disadvantage is the better bet Is beyond rational thought.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Hawkido on 11/30/2007 6:37:37 PM , Rating: 3
Is a 750GB hard drive "better" than a 120GB one?

Ouch... Perfect example of when to keep your mouth shut...

THe difference in data density allows for a higher transfer rate at the same spindle speed. So yeah, the 750 gig HD would be faster/better than the 120gig HD. By quite a large degree.

Also 25gig is enough for an HD movie... so long as you don't do any special features or support more thn 5.1 audio channels. or multiple languages, or golly. Thank goodness none of the movie studio's do ANY of those things. I suppose you can fit all of that into a 30 gig disc... may have to leave some of the extras out and cut the quality down a bit... but pretty much yeah you can do it all on both... That's why I choose HD-DVD... so I can pretty much have a HiDef experience... </sarcasm>

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By EclipsedAurora on 11/30/2007 11:17:21 PM , Rating: 3
Also 25gig is enough for an HD movie...

It's not a truth. In fact if u put lossless uncompressed PCM 7.1 24bit/192KHz channel audio, it would eat up around 24Mbps bitrate alone for AUDIO only already! While the max bitrate of HD-DVD is 25Mbps, doesn't it mean there's only 1Mbps left behind for VHS quality Video?

Even 30GB is definately not enough for HD video, take a look between the quality improvement between 50GB dual layer and earlier 25GB single layer BluRay video software. U will find that those HD-DVDs will be leave into dust.

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By TomZ on 12/1/2007 3:20:15 PM , Rating: 2
I don't trust the views of anyone that believes that a 25Mbps bitrate for audio brings anything to the table. That level is not "audiophile," it's stupid!

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By Vanilla Thunder on 11/30/2007 2:47:30 PM , Rating: 3
I still have a Toshiba Betamax player in my basement, and to this day it still works. Every once in a while, I fire it up, plug in the remote (that's right, it's wired) and watch one of the 100's of movies I recorded from Cable TV. Beta, FTW!!


By Locutus465 on 11/30/2007 2:55:40 PM , Rating: 2
My families first VHS player (forget the brand now) also featured a plugin remote... God we so killed that remote by the end of the players life!

RE: Blu-Ray/HD-DVD vs. VHS/Betamax
By timmiser on 12/1/2007 2:02:31 AM , Rating: 2
Since we are comparing the current HD format war with the VHS/Betamax format war, here are some interesting facts that you failed to mention:

1. VHS units were introduced to the market at a far lower cost than the more-rare Betamax units.

2. From the consumer perspective, buying a single 8-hour VHS tape for $5 is cheaper than buying two 4-hour Betamax tapes for $10

Both points illustrate the key to winning a format war by recognizing that price is king. Once the videophile early adopters buy up their blue ray players and PS3's at higher prices, the remaining thrifty consumers will take over and win this war for HD-DVD soley because of the huge price difference. Sony couldn't pull it off in the 1980's and they have already shown they won't be able to do it this time around either because they can't get their player prices low enough.

And what the heck are you talking about "Exclusive Studio Support"? There was no exclusive studio support of formats in the VHS/Beta war. Unless you are counting the time when it was apparent Beta had lost the war and studios had stopped making Beta versions of movies because of lack of demand.

Max capacity was an issue in the VHS/Beta war because people were recording shows on the tapes. That is no longer the case or a valid comparison in today's war.

By maverick85wd on 12/1/2007 12:57:34 PM , Rating: 2
Max Capacity in Gigabytes/Hours:

This is the most important part of the post

Non-N. American Market share %:

This one is the funniest, it looks in this one like BD is beating HD-DVD worse than VHS beat beta-max... therefore rendering it HD-Max lol

makes me wonder if BD-drives in computers have influenced this at all, I know I'd rather have a Blu-based drive than an HD-DVD-based drive, but that's just me

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