backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 228 comment(s) - last by adiposity.. on Jun 29 at 2:24 PM


  (Source: Sony)

A new survey indicates 93 percent of consumers don't plan on buying a Blu-Ray player. Will Blu-Ray go the way of Sony's Betamax -- another promising format -- or will it live on thanks to support from rental services like Blockbuster and the entry of sub-$200 players?  (Source: HiTech Canada)
New format desperately tries to avoid slipping into obscurity

When asked about his hard-fought victories over the Romans in 279 BC and 280 BC, King Pyrrhus of Epirus famously remarked, "one more such victory would utterly undo (me)."  Today, over a year after having dealt a death blow to its competitor HD-DVD, Blu-ray, Sony's proprietary high definition format, faces a similar Pyrrhic victory.

In the world of digital media being ubiquitous is the key to success.  The most successful storage formats have found their way into the homes, cars, or offices of the majority of consumers.  Whether its EP/LP records, cassette tapes, CDs, or DVDs at the height of each of these formats they could almost always be found in every household.

However, Blu-ray is not.  During its sales battle against HD-DVD observers always overlooked the fact that while it outsold its competitor, its own sales were not very large.  Now with the market to itself, Blu-ray is still struggling to avoid joining the likes of Laserdiscs and Betamax as the next fizzled format.

A recent Harris Interactive Poll showed that approximately 93 percent of consumers still don't have a dedicated Blu-ray player.  In fact more Americans own a HD-DVD capable player (11 percent) than a Blu-ray capable player (7 percent), though Blu-Ray does benefit from the fact that 9 percent own a Blu-ray capable PS3.  Their report also provides evidence that the attrition of the HD-DVD v. Blu-ray war continues to hurt sales.  Customers reported confusion about the high definition formats. 

While HD-TV ownership is up to 47 percent, up 35 percent from a year ago, most customers surprisingly report being content waiting for high definition cable, watching internet video, or up-converting DVDs for their HD fix.  Writes Milton Ellis, Vice President and Senior Consultant, Harris Interactive Technology, Media, and Telecom Practice, "Blu-ray also faces competition from alternative technologies such as cable, satellite, and the Internet.  Consumers today can easily watch high definition TV channels or use the Internet or video-on-demand to access high definition movies."

Speculates Mr. Ellis, "In the near future, access to high definition movies may be a download or streaming delivery of one’s favorite movies to a home media server that eliminates the need for a Blu-ray player and Blu-ray disc. One thing is for sure, the market will be highly competitive, and consumers will have a wide variety of choices for their entertainment experience."

Blu-ray is not without hope.  Sony continues to push the format in its computers and in its Playstation 3 gaming console.  Desktop and external Blu-ray R/W drives also should help further adoption.  And some video rental services, such as Blockbuster have devoted small sections to the format.  Lastly, the entry of sub-$200 players have helped sales to post some growth of late.

However, as Mr. Ellis points out, Blu-Ray stands at a crossroads three years after it hit the market in June 2006.  It still has its backers and a small but very loyal market segment.  However, the format is facing a do-or-die situation when it comes to proving its relevance with the average consumer.  Otherwise, like many other enthusiast formats, it risks going the way of the dinosaur.


Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Until
By FITCamaro on 6/23/2009 9:34:11 AM , Rating: 5
Until Blu-ray is the same price as DVD it isn't going to gain ground. In today's times, people can live with an up-converted DVD. While I do buy Blu-rays, I buy very few. It has to be an awesome movie for me to buy it. Yes you can find Blu-rays cheap. But they're typically older movies I already have on DVD and I'm not rebuying all my movies just to have them in HD. Being in HD doesn't make it a better movie.

Hell I bought Terminator 2 on Blu-ray because its one of those epic movies that I felt it'd be worth having in HD and it doesn't even have the extended version of the movie.




RE: Until
By shikigamild on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By flyboy84 on 6/23/2009 9:42:55 AM , Rating: 5
The advantages of DVD over VHS are much more than BRD over DVD.


RE: Until
By 16nm on 6/23/2009 10:24:52 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
BRD over DVD


I think the problem is the name. EVERYONE knows what DVD is and naturally knows what HD-DVD would mean, but "Blu-ray"? What does the name Bluray mean to the average consumer? It's not obvious and the averag joe is too lazy to really look into it so he just keeps buying the DVD format.


RE: Until
By phazers on 6/23/2009 11:38:33 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
EVERYONE knows what DVD is and naturally knows what HD-DVD would mean, but "Blu-ray"? What does the name Bluray mean to the average consumer?


Since just about every Sony & Walt Disney DVD release in the last year or so has a BD promo on it, I'd imagine quite a few consumers not quick enough to skip over the previews are familiar with the format by now.

Personally I think the average selling price of the players has to get down well below $100 and the average disc price has to be below $15 before it'll take off. And the promos have to tout the fact that the players will also play your old DVD collection..


RE: Until
By 9nails on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By BOLt on 6/23/2009 11:08:43 PM , Rating: 5
You haven't seen a BRD movie then.

Try Ironman in Blu-ray versus DVD on a good HDTV. The differences in picture (and sound) are quite noticeable.


RE: Until
By Oregonian2 on 6/24/2009 11:10:01 PM , Rating: 2
I don't doubt it being noticeable. Don't doubt most all could notice the difference.

But it is as dramatic an improvement as VHS->DVD both in terms of video quality and actually-used user features (meaning DVDs didn't need to be rewound, DVDs could random access scenes, DVDs had bonus-material that was rare for VHS, etc)? I suspect that the "total" improvement of Blu-Ray is less dramatic.

Also there's the matter of being used to one's cable/satellite/etc version of HD which likely isn't as good as Blu-ray. This lowers what is "acceptable" in terms of comparison with well-upconverted good quality DVDs.

My quasi-reasonably priced OPPO plain-DVD player upconverts good DVDs (there are awful ones, some are only half of one DVD layer) very well. As good as Blu-Ray (assuming a Blu-Ray version exists, the vast vast vast majority of DVD titles that exist don't have Blu-Ray versions ...) video is, one still can very well enjoy a good DVD without being the least bit bent out of shape which one WOULD be using a VHS tape.

For a lot of material (say, episodes of Perry Mason that were broadcast in the 1950's) having a Blu-Ray version isn't going to help much in terms of video quality.

Of course, the number of folk who have excellent HD systems may also be small relative to the number who use regular DVDs. And there's folk like me who still have ancient audio systems (think mine is a 6.1 receiver connected to a 5.1 speaker setup) who may not be able to appreciate the better audio quality even if it's detectable.

P.S. - Disclosure (see other thread): I do have a Panasonic 1080p 58" plasma for the video part, but my speakers are only ancient Energy take 5 ones (plus Energy subwoofer).


RE: Until
By robinthakur on 6/25/2009 5:39:32 AM , Rating: 2
I own a PS3 and yes its a noticeable difference *to me* on my 46" 1080p calibrated screen with an onkyo 607 and KEF 3005SE speakers plus PS3. I was surprised recently however that a lot of people I have round could not tell the difference between my DVD copy and the Blu Ray version. ignoring the colour depth, clarity increase and improved motion handling. Some couldn't tell the difference even up close...This is in the UK which has a much lower penetration of HD content than the US, so theoretically it should blow people away.

The bottom line is that Blu Ray is an elitist's niche format. To get the best out of the format (without talking BIG money) you need a full-HD TV, an Amp which decodes Dolby True HD/ Master DTS etc. a Blu Ray Player, and you need to know how to set them all up properly. Now if you think the average person on the street knows or cares how to do that, you are living in a fantasy land, especially at the current time. If they even lack the knowledge to set it up correctly, then they won't see any difference to DVD. Trust me, it raises my eyebrows in shock but alot of people don't even use HD connections to connect their BD players...

They need to do something, and quick, otherwise it will just be another format which didn't quite reach critical mass. They need to get 1-box packs where you get a br player, speakers and amp in one pack, I think I've only seen a couple of them. BR recorders are also very much in demand to allow people to record HD, and it also gives them confidence in the format being around for a while, and therefore being worth investing in!


RE: Until
By robinthakur on 6/25/2009 5:39:40 AM , Rating: 2
I own a PS3 and yes its a noticeable difference *to me* on my 46" 1080p calibrated screen with an onkyo 607 and KEF 3005SE speakers plus PS3. I was surprised recently however that a lot of people I have round could not tell the difference between my DVD copy and the Blu Ray version. ignoring the colour depth, clarity increase and improved motion handling. Some couldn't tell the difference even up close...This is in the UK which has a much lower penetration of HD content than the US, so theoretically it should blow people away.

The bottom line is that Blu Ray is an elitist's niche format. To get the best out of the format (without talking BIG money) you need a full-HD TV, an Amp which decodes Dolby True HD/ Master DTS etc. a Blu Ray Player, and you need to know how to set them all up properly. Now if you think the average person on the street knows or cares how to do that, you are living in a fantasy land, especially at the current time. If they even lack the knowledge to set it up correctly, then they won't see any difference to DVD. Trust me, it raises my eyebrows in shock but alot of people don't even use HD connections to connect their BD players...

They need to do something, and quick, otherwise it will just be another format which didn't quite reach critical mass. They need to get 1-box packs where you get a br player, speakers and amp in one pack, I think I've only seen a couple of them. BR recorders are also very much in demand to allow people to record HD, and it also gives them confidence in the format being around for a while, and therefore being worth investing in!


RE: Until
By Dwezil on 6/24/2009 12:23:12 PM , Rating: 2
So, you saw the promos for BlueRay that are on a regular DVD and weren't impressed? All you saw was a standard definition commercial - you cannot see what a high def movie would look like from a standard definition dvd.
That reminds me of the TV ads that used to show how great one manufacturer's TVs were by showing gorgeous pictures on them - but if you could see how great the picture was, then your TV could obviously show something that looks that good too!


RE: Until
By Samus on 6/24/2009 8:01:41 AM , Rating: 3
it's just messed up HD-DVD lost the format war. i coulda swore backwards compatibility would have pretty much secured victory, but somehow.....somehow....the clearly less user friendly, substantially more expensive format with identical picture/audio quality still won.


RE: Until
By RMSe17 on 6/24/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By Samus on 6/25/2009 5:48:15 AM , Rating: 3
Burning aside, the DRM and lack of backwards compatibility make bluray clearly less consumer oriented.

The reason HD-DVD burners lacked market share (or even existance) is because Sony appeared to be strongarming the consumer electronics biz in China. Toshiba, not being in the business of making 'burners' couldn't care less about the lack of recording market. They were just concentrating on aligning studio's and getting vendor hardware out that cheap (the playback variety)

Had Toshiba (or anybody) made a cost effective recorder, it *might* have helped HD-DVD's cause, but I firmly believe with Sony in the way they were dead in the water from day zero.


RE: Until
By rollakid on 6/23/2009 7:54:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What does the name Bluray mean to the average consumer?


Seafood?


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By invidious on 6/23/2009 10:49:27 AM , Rating: 5
The visual capabilities were not the only upgrade from VHS to DVD. DVDs are smaller, more durable, and cheaper to blanks of. Fitting on a spindle or in a booklet made storage and portability huge plusses for DVD. While the phyiscal BR is virtually identical to a DVD.

So while from a resolution and bit rate point of view BR is a huge jump from DVD, people who are not tech savy don't understand those things and see little increase in practicality.

Personally trying to watch a DVD on my 47" LCD makes me want to cry, my cable box never goes below the HD channel range. Blueray is definately great for people like me and many others here. But my parents for example have a 28" LCD and a $30 DVD player, they have little desire to drop $200 on a BR player.


RE: Until
By Hiawa23 on 6/23/2009 11:16:56 AM , Rating: 2
So while from a resolution and bit rate point of view BR is a huge jump from DVD, people who are not tech savy don't understand those things and see little increase in practicality.

Personally trying to watch a DVD on my 47" LCD makes me want to cry, my cable box never goes below the HD channel range. Blueray is definately great for people like me and many others here. But my parents for example have a 28" LCD and a $30 DVD player, they have little desire to drop $200 on a BR player.


I think most don't care about bit rates & all that tech stuff. I would imagine watching DVDs on a TV that big wouldn't give the same clarity of Blu ray, but most people don't have Tvs that big, especially in this economy, & probably is a reason why Blu ray maybe is not taking off like some thought. The largest Tv in my home is 27", I just don't see any reason to get a tv that big unless someone is going to give me one. The cost benefit just isn't there for me, but for people like you seems fine, the problem with that is you are not the majority, not sure if that will change anytime soon especially with everything else more important that people have to deal with now.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/2009 2:47:19 PM , Rating: 2
you couldn't be more wrong, HDTV adoption is leaping forward at an amazing rate:

quote:
Looking at high definition television sets, almost half of consumers now report owning a high definition television (47%), up decidedly from May of 2008 (35%). HDTV ownership rises dramatically with household income (27% for those with less than $35K vs. 62% among those with more than $75K).


http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?nd...

While the author is also being negative about the new format, it does decidedly prove your points wrong. Even in the 32+" range bluray is already noticiably better than DVD. It's just a far superior product in every way. From the video and audio quailty, to the enhanced value offered by BD-Live.


RE: Until
By mezman on 6/23/2009 3:49:37 PM , Rating: 5
Yes, Blu-Ray is a far superior product to DVD from a technical standpoint. But Joe Sixpack doesn't know or care about the advantages of high bit rate AVC encodes over Mpeg-2 or 3Mbs DTS-HD MA over 448kbs DD. Not to mention the fact that even if Mr. Sixpack does have a surround sound setup, it most likely can't take the new lossless audio formats and his speakers aren't good enough to show the difference anyway.

Technical superiority is great for guys like us. But as long as player prices are high and media prices are twice what DVDs cost, Blu-Ray will never take off. That makes me sad as a gear head, but economics will rule the day I'm sure.


RE: Until
By Ryanman on 6/23/2009 4:26:30 PM , Rating: 2
oh GOD you used the term joe six pack!

WHY AMERICA?!? WHY?!?


RE: Until
By menace on 6/23/2009 5:07:58 PM , Rating: 3
Yep the average Joe has six-pack abs
Vive L'America!


RE: Until
By RubberJohnny on 6/23/2009 11:34:25 PM , Rating: 2
...or a six-pack of beer.


RE: Until
By ayat101 on 6/24/2009 1:03:08 AM , Rating: 2
YES... exactly... the abs created by drinking six-packs :)


RE: Until
By Lightnix on 6/24/2009 3:12:40 AM , Rating: 2
Why have a six pack when you can have a keg?


RE: Until
By evolucion8 on 6/24/2009 12:14:47 PM , Rating: 2
By Lightnix on 6/24/2009 3:12:40 AM , Rating: 3
Why have a six pack when you can have a keg?

LOLL

I own a BluRay player in my PC which costs me about $130 8 months ago, but the high prices of the Blu Ray movies plus the little library of movies, doesn't help at all. I only own 6 blu ray movies and I plan to buy another one in the next 6 months.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By foolsgambit11 on 6/23/2009 4:46:35 PM , Rating: 5
And Betamax was a far superior product to VHS. And 8-tracks were way better than cassettes. Technical superiority is only the primary decision criterion for a small minority of users. The fact that you could jump anywhere in a movie quickly and easily was a huge thing for my parents when I introduced them to DVD. I had to point out the picture quality boost over VHS. Still, even though my parents loved the convenience of DVDs, it took them maybe 5 more years to get a player, because it wasn't that high of a priority for them. It wasn't until players and DVDs were priced about the same as VHS that they jumped in. I remember my dad saying, "I found a DVD player for less than $100, should I get it?" At this point, you could barely find VHS anywhere anymore, so it was a necessity to upgrade, too.

Blu-Ray has an uphill battle.


RE: Until
By tastyratz on 6/23/2009 4:46:55 PM , Rating: 2
Ferarri is superior to a Ford, but you don't see everyone just getting the Ferarri do you?
The limitations of a magnetic vs optical media are endless and beyond the scope here. Any consumer planted in front of a dvd and vhs could easily figure out the advantages. Any size TV shows dramatic quality. Functionally they were simpler and more appealing from a usage scenario. Bluray doesn't bring that to the table.

I was one of the first people to get a ps3, and love my bluray - but from a generic consumer perspective they wont understand fully.

More consumers are getting "HD" tv's, but the larger higher quality televisions are going to blast the differences and make them obvious. That's the upper eschelon of buyers. hdtv's and 42+ hdtv's are different categories.

Down to basics a Bluray can play a movie... just like dvd. Its going to appeal more to the enthusiast and *phile market. These are people approaching the home theater with a larger budget. If the player is only 200, it only matters to the people who have the extra 200 for a player. The majority of consumers would rather (ick) get a "good enough" home theater in a box system with their new tv.

You can start to see the difference with a new hdtv and bluray player on a ~$600 home theater budget. Most would rather get the cheap htib with their tv (and benefit more from it)

You can take advantage of and fully enjoy the benefits of bluray with a $2000+ entry total system budget. ( 800 up tv, 400 ps3, 800 decent truhd receiver + speakers)

How many people in today's economy fit in group 2 vs group 1? Cost vs benefit makes it not worthwhile unless your in group 2.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By 9nails on 6/23/2009 9:13:03 PM , Rating: 5
All things being equal, I'd rather have the less expensive car and money for dinner. I don't need big and flashy right now, I need affordable.


RE: Until
By GWD5318 on 6/23/2009 10:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
... it's like buying a Camaro ($22k) to a focus, which would you rather drive?


Depends on the Focus. On more that one occasion I've left Camaros in the dust of my SVT Focus ZX5. Sure, they have me in the straightaways, but once the road get's twisty, buh-bye.

On topic: I have to agree with the opinion of that unless the prices drop and the practical benefits of Blu-ray is better communicated with the average buyer, this superior format is likely to become another Betamax.


RE: Until
By ArcliteHawaii on 6/23/2009 2:46:53 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
DVDs are smaller, more durable, and cheaper to blanks of.

I have a friend who is a librarian. They rent both DVDs and video cassettes. She says she gets about 100 rentals out of a DVD before she has to replace it, vs. 500 for a video cassette. I was pretty shocked to hear that, but she said the disks get scratched through handling, whereas the cassette tape is always protected.


RE: Until
By akugami on 6/23/2009 8:34:26 PM , Rating: 2
One of the benefits of was the scratch resistant coating. I'm not sure if it's a standard requirement or optional feature. I'm too chicken to attempt scratching up my minuscule Blu-Ray collection to test this out and I can't seem to find a clear answer via Google.


RE: Until
By Josh7289 on 6/24/2009 12:58:31 AM , Rating: 3
In another sense DVDs are more 'durable' than VHS, since the quality of VHS tapes degrades the more you watch them.


RE: Until
By Solandri on 6/24/2009 3:02:30 AM , Rating: 2
Bear in mind that you can make perfect backups of DVDs because they're digital (after you defeat the copy-protection). While that's not very useful for DVD rentals, if you own a DVD and know it's going to suffer a lot of wear and tear (e.g. Disney movies for the kids), just burn a copy and put the original in a safe place. Let the kids watch off the copy. When they've watched it 100 times and destroyed the disc, just burn another copy, good as new.

If you tried to do the same thing with VHS, the image quality of the copy would be inferior, and your original would slowly degrade with each playback. You'd also run into the Macrovision copy protection. While it can be defeated too, doing so requires buying a hardware device. Defeating the DVD's copy protection only requires downloading some free software.

(Disclaimer: I do not condone illegal copying of copyrighted materials. I do however support exercising your fair use rights to back up copyrighted materials you have lawfully purchased. AFAIK, Disney is the only studio which offers replacement discs for the cost of media and shipping. So all the other studios can take their copy protection and shove it.)


RE: Until
By Hiawa23 on 6/24/2009 9:03:48 AM , Rating: 2
Bear in mind that you can make perfect backups of DVDs because they're digital (after you defeat the copy-protection). While that's not very useful for DVD rentals, if you own a DVD and know it's going to suffer a lot of wear and tear (e.g. Disney movies for the kids), just burn a copy and put the original in a safe place

This is great for rentals. I have Netflix, & it takes minutes to copy & send back the DVDs, so you can perfect copies of any dvd if you have the right tools & they are pretty easy to get.


RE: Until
By killerb255 on 6/24/2009 12:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
I believe Solandri was referring to exercising your fair-use rights to make a backup copy of something you own and not blatant piracy?


RE: Until
By Oregonian2 on 6/24/2009 11:28:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Personally trying to watch a DVD on my 47" LCD makes me want to cry, my cable box never goes below the HD channel range. Blueray is definately great for people like me and many others here


Are you using the set's upconverting of the DVD?

I've a 32" LCD HDTV (720p) that if fed a SD DVD signal, video looks like (relative) crap.

I've a 58" Plasma HDTV (1080p) that if fed 1080 upconverted HDMI video with upconversion by an OPPO DV-981HD DVD player, a good DVD looks extremely good with one almost thinking it's an HD source (not quite, but one is surprised at the quality).

So one might think the upconversion would look worse on the MUCH bigger screen, the opposite is true in my case.

The quality of the up-conversion makes a huge difference.


RE: Until
By Zapp Brannigan on 6/23/2009 1:05:15 PM , Rating: 2
You're right about all of what you've said, but 95% of people don't care about stuff like that. All they care about is instant scene selection, no rewinding and perfect freeze frame (for the boobies!!). DVD delivers these things as well as Blu-ray.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By foolsgambit11 on 6/23/2009 4:57:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No it doesn't, DVD for instance makes you leave the movie to do all this
DVD does do all of this, but not as well or as conveniently as BD. So, yes, it does. Most consumers will put up with a small inconvenience and 'good enough' quality rather than pay a couple hundred for a player and an extra ten bucks a movie, especially if their screen doesn't have > 480 vres and they don't have a surround sound system.

You don't have to convince the people here that BD is technically superior to DVD. We all know that, and those of us who can afford it are all up in the HD content. But your arguments are really not convincing to the everyman out there.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By foolsgambit11 on 6/23/2009 5:49:27 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, I see the confusion. The OP said that "DVD delivers these things as well as Blu-Ray".

You parsed that as 'DVD delivers these things "every bit as good" as Blu-Ray'. I parsed it as 'DVD delivers these things, "in addition to"/"as does" Blu-Ray'. Which he meant, I don't know, but it's quite likely you're right. Both our points, though, stand as valid comments. BD does these things better, but most people don't see the price/performance as being worth it.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By 9nails on 6/23/2009 9:23:26 PM , Rating: 3
No price is as good as what you already own.

And very few people can upgrade for the cost of a player alone. Most have to suffer through the confusion of which cables to buy and how to network their player for the firmware update worries. That, on top of the cost for each BD disc, is enough justification not to upgrade when the difference can appear to be minimal.


RE: Until
By 91TTZ on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By cyriene on 6/23/2009 11:19:41 AM , Rating: 3
I disagree. The problems with VHS tapes wearing out, and remember the tracking issues and trying to adjust that.
VHS >>> DVD > BRD

The resolution of Blu-ray is nice over DVD, but other than that there isn't much the average consumer would care about.


RE: Until
By ArcliteHawaii on 6/23/2009 4:21:36 PM , Rating: 2
My librarian friend says she has to replace DVDs after 100 watchings, but VHS don't need to be replaced for 500 watchings.


RE: Until
By rcc on 6/23/2009 5:20:00 PM , Rating: 2
Perhaps, but they are lending to people. Owners are going to treat their discs better. Unless they have kids, then they replace every 20 viewings. Unless they wise up and put them on a hard drive.


RE: Until
By bobobeastie on 6/23/2009 4:25:38 PM , Rating: 1
The alligator eats the bigger (better) number (thing)
I think you mean VHS<<<DVD<<<<<<BD
Well, that's my opinion, but you get the idea.


RE: Until
By piroroadkill on 6/24/2009 5:49:42 AM , Rating: 2
VHS is much much much greater than DVD which is greater than Bluray?


RE: Until
By Dribble on 6/23/2009 11:22:19 AM , Rating: 5
VHS had more wrong with it then resolution. It wore out, it was big and bulky, you can't instantly skip to a point in a vhs, it had no menus. Never really did special features (due to size 2 vhs's and the inability to skip to the feature you wanted).

Dvd also had much better sound then vhs (I know blue ray has better sound then dvd but unless you are an audiophile with a 7.1 setup you can't really tell the difference).

The other problem is blue ray only really looks better on a full hd set (i.e 1080p), it doesn't really help much for 720p TV's as you have to interpolate either way.
i.e. PAL Dvd's have 576 lines of resolution, which is pretty close to the tv's 720 lines. Blue ray has to downscale from 1080 to 720 which doesn't map 1:1 meaning a loss of quality over a true 720 line format, hence the difference ends up being pretty minor.


RE: Until
By Parhel on 6/23/2009 1:18:40 PM , Rating: 5
For me, the best part was never having to rewind a tape again. The rest was nice to have too, but that was number one.


RE: Until
By Locutus465 on 6/23/2009 2:53:19 PM , Rating: 1
D-VHS had menus, skipping (though not absolutly instant), was high definition and had better audio than DVD. Yet people didn't jump all over it. I was told not long ago that speacial features don't matter ;) Probably because bluray pwns DVD in speacial features.


RE: Until
By RubberJohnny on 6/24/2009 12:34:30 AM , Rating: 5
I agree with your first 2 points, but the third is pure BS - Dribble you might say ;)

Interpolation is NOT a problem when downscaling. On a 720p projector (92 inches) it's nearly impossible to see a difference in quality from downscaling a 1080p bluray as opposed to a native 720p file, have you got any links to back up your theory?

I also come from a PAL region and a downscaled bluray looks MUCH better than an upscaled PAL dvd on a screen that size.

quote:
PAL Dvd's have 576 lines of resolution, which is pretty close to the tv's 720 lines...
PRETTY CLOSE ?!?!?! it's less than half the res!

Dont forget you are only looking at the vertical resolution of 576p, which in reality is 720 × 576 = 414720 pixels. 720p is 1280 x 720p = 921600 pixels. Over twice the resolution! and it's not an even 1:2 map to upscale, in the end it looks like crap compared to a bluray.


RE: Until
By Regs on 6/24/2009 1:49:04 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't know all the technical specs, but I knew it was BS just from my own personnel experience owning a 720p LCD TV. Thank you for that explanation.

Their are some blue rays that show little difference compared to a DVD, other than of course it not being stretched and distorted to fit a larger screen TV using 720 × 576. Those blue-rays are usually the ones with piss poor color replication. The Dark knight for instance...the movie was all dark! Other than the a few explosions and the jokers face paint, there was nothing really eye popping about it. Though who also wants to see The Dark Knight stretched out, pixilated, and distorted on their 42-48+ screens.

As for the format war, serves them right. The studios went with blue-ray to fit their own needs, and not the customers. So F' them.


RE: Until
By RubberJohnny on 6/24/2009 10:44:07 PM , Rating: 2
Dark movies are decidely hard for (non LED backlit) LCDs to reproduce well.

I have the same problem with my (cheap) 720p DLP projector, blacks are crushed so you lose detail in the dark sections of the movie. You can adjust the gamma or brightness up to compensate but then the whites become overblown.

That's why plasmas are generally regarded as having a better quality picture, lets hope they keep making them for a while to come.


RE: Until
By robinthakur on 6/25/2009 5:49:38 AM , Rating: 2
Say what you will, I found my Blu Rays much less impresssive when I took it to my mother's house and played it back through her 720p Samsung 46" than it is on my Samsung 1080p 46". I had to keep explaining that this *was* the next big thing even though nobody there could really tell the difference at normal viewing distances, and even I had difficulty seeing many of the benefits besides increased colour resolution even up close...! No wonder it hasn't taken off. You would need all manufacturers to stop making DVD players and move to blu-ray en masse for this to happen, along with the confusing HD branding on some upscalers, which makes some people unaware of the difference!


RE: Until
By RubberJohnny on 6/24/2009 3:29:42 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
blue ray only really looks better on a full hd set (i.e 1080p), it doesn't really help much for 720p TV's as you have to interpolate either way.

Had a feeling this was completely false.

From http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zybe...
quote:
If you want to watch a 1080i HD broadcast or a 1080p Blu-ray on your TV, those signals will need to be scaled to 720p first...A bad scaler will introduce artifacts such as shimmer, aliasing, or pixelation. A good scaler will be essentially seamless


RE: Until
By tlampen on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By 91TTZ on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By Sunner on 6/24/2009 4:12:09 AM , Rating: 3
I was around for VHS as well, and in my eyes, the move from VHS to DVD was far bigger than the move from DVD to BD.
While I personally love HD movies, trying to convince my parents, or indeed any of my "non geek" friends that BD is worth it would be a lost cause.
Better image/sound quality? They don't care.
PiP features? They don't care.
All they want is to watch movies in a comfortable way, DVD lets them do this, and they all own DVD players/recorders.

When my parents bought a DVD player though, they did care about not having to (re)wind the tape, tapes wearing out the more you watch, the discs being far smaller, etc. All of those are practical things that you don't need to be a geek to appreciate.

Heck, apart from quality, there's not a single thing about BD that appeals to me, and I'm fairly sure I'm a major geek :)


RE: Until
By Hiawa23 on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By TSS on 6/23/09, Rating: 0
RE: Until
By Boze on 6/23/2009 10:56:15 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with your assessment. You can go over to Newegg right now and pick up a 1 terabyte external hard drive from Western Digital or Maxtor or pick your company, for around $99 to $109. That's what... $0.10? 10 cents per gigabyte? All those external drives have USB 2.0 and/or FireWire 400/800 interfaces. Transfer speeds to/from my stack of 1 TB MyBooks is around 30 to 38 megabytes per second, well approaching the limits of the USB 2.0 spec anyway. Don't have a power outlet? Not a problem, several external drives draw power straight from the USB port itself.

Furthermore, with USB 3.0 on its way and solid state drives quickly gaining ground, soon you're going to see blazingly fast data transfer from external drives.

If I were really interested in moving data to and from my computer to a friend's, I would hardly use a recordable format these days unless I was going to drop it in the mail. If you can't make it over to someone's house, not a big issue; ask them to bring their laptop to class or work, plug in your external drive or USB flash drive (these get to 128 GB and larger now) and transfer the data over. When they get home, they can move it from laptop to desktop over the network.

I am really seeing less and less of a need to ever use recordable media.


RE: Until
By killerb255 on 6/24/2009 1:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
+1 on this note.

I read about the introduction of Blu-ray when it was announced in 2004, and I was pretty excited back then. HD-DVD was announced shortly after that, and I figured there was going to be format confusion that rivaled DVD+R and DVD-R considerably (in which that ended as a stalemate, as any DVD burner these days can deal with both formats).

Nowadays, even with Blu-ray winning, it's competing with the following:

1) Price.

2) The economy (laid-off workers could care less about Blu-ray in most cases).

3) DVDs, as the difference between BD and DVD in quality is not as big of a jump to many as DVD was compared to VHS.

4) DRM to some extent (old HDTV that's not HDCP-compliant, anyone?)

4) Alternative storage media--Hard drives, flash drives, flash cards (SD, MS, etc.), and SSDs.

Within the next year or so, we may see 2 TB SD cards (yes, that's T B, not GB)!! If that's the case, next gen consoles may end up using cards to store game releases instead of optical media (which almost seems like a step backwards...remember the Sega Master System and TurboGrafx16 with their card-based games?)

The only real advantage BD can claim in the storage dept. would be on a PS3 vs. that of an XBox 360, and even that's minor (those that have played the XBox 360 game Star Ocean: The Last Hope with all of its disc swapping may wonder if the 360 would benefit from BDs...).

In any case, whether it'd be for HD video or plain ol' storage, BD may very well be the second-to-last optical media format anyone will really care about. The last will be Pioneer's 250 GB/layer Holographic disc format, which may support 7000+x4000+ UHDTV format, which nobody will care about if SD cards do the same...


RE: Until
By ArcliteHawaii on 6/23/2009 4:16:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The advantages of DVD over VHS are much more than BRD over DVD.

I think it's about the same.

- DVD upped the line resolution from VHS's 320-400 up to 480. BRD ups it from 480 to 1080.

- VHS occasionally had special features after the main feature, but DVD took it to the next level with audio commentary, production stills and other special features. BRD ups that by providing PIP and Internet content.

- DVD introduced multiple dubbed (usually 3: Engl, Sp, & Fr) sound tracks. BRD ups that to dozens.

- VHS had four channel sound, DVD 5.1, and BRD 7.1.

The visuals are what get me. 1080P is such a leap beyond anything that has come before it, I think it will be the standard for the next 10 years at least. When properly done, it looks so good that there will be no motivation for people to migrate to something better. And at 8-9 feet the eye can't differentiate between 720P and 1080P, so even if we bumped it up to 1620P or something, you wouldn't be able to sit close enough to notice the difference unless you had a 65" TV.

There's also the sound. 7.1 formats are already lossless, so it can't really get any better.


RE: Until
By Oregonian2 on 6/24/2009 11:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The visuals are what get me. 1080P is such a leap beyond anything that has come before it, I think it will be the standard for the next 10 years at least.


Doubtful seeing as how broadcast TV isn't capable of 1080P, and given that it took a zillion years to get to digital at all, the next upgrade may take a while.

1080 may become standard though (1080i for broadcast).


RE: Until
By MrPoletski on 6/24/2009 1:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
not to mention that if the film was not recorded in HD then the blu ray version will just be an upscaled normal definition image. I learnt this when I got The Usual Suspects on blu ray, sure it's better quality than normal tv but it's no better than a well produced DVD.

On the other hand, recently HD filmed stuff looks far superior on blu ray vs DVD.

One thing to remember about DVD is that it arrived about the same time as mass mainstreamed LCD TV's which also gave a marked increase in picture quality.


RE: Until
By AlexWade on 6/23/2009 9:57:02 AM , Rating: 4
I was one of those. But here is the difference.

VHS quality degraded over time. After several playbacks, the sound gets fuzzy and the picture fades. DVD quality does not do that. With DVD it is all or nothing. So it was worth getting a DVD because my VHS was already ruined due to frequent playbacks. Add to that, the extra abilities in DVD, such as chapter skip and no need to rewind. And since DVD when they first came out went straight to the movie without "coming attractions" and obligatory menus and intros, it was all the better.

Blu-Ray and HD DVD did not add any of those things, they just inherited the selling points of DVD. I re-bought a movie that I had on DVD. I bought the HD DVD version of Apollo 13. That is when I found out something. When the source is not HD quality, then there is very little visual improvement going from DVD to HD DVD or Blu-Ray. I compared a shot using the upscaled DVD version vs the HD DVD version and the HD DVD version was only slightly better. Why upgrade the HD DVD or Blu-Ray if the only benefit is a nicer menu system and a few extras which I will rarely use?

I also bought So I Married An Axe Murderer on Blu-Ray (never had the DVD version). It too was not sharp like newer movies. It looked like an upscaled DVD. Why spend more for so little benefit? That is the difference. There was a huge benefit going from VHS to DVD, less of a benefit going from DVD to Blu-Ray. Except on newer titles, but most people don't know that.

P.S. I propose we ban any movie previews on DVD's and Blu-Ray except on rental discs. Further, I propose that we require the movie to be at the top menu or playing within one minute, no exception. Who is with me?


RE: Until
By rudy on 6/23/2009 10:32:30 AM , Rating: 2
I agree I cannot believe how I will put in a movie and come back after doing several things to get ready and the previews will still be running. The movie industry has been down hill since sony took over half of it. If you do not give the customer value you will eventually lose them.

The only blue ray players I have are ones that came free in computers I have. And I almost never rent a movie in BR, I either get what they have at redbox or find it online. Personally I think it will be good if BR fails cause it may speed up the move to online content.


RE: Until
By wallijonn on 6/23/09, Rating: -1
RE: Until
By ArcliteHawaii on 6/23/2009 4:44:22 PM , Rating: 2
Downloadable movies also aren't 1080P with lossless 7.1 soundtracks either.


RE: Until
By Golgatha on 6/23/2009 12:45:07 PM , Rating: 2
A HTPC with AnyDVD HD and a Blu-ray drive is what you need. No lobbying or waiting involved.


RE: Until
By killerb255 on 6/24/2009 1:14:51 PM , Rating: 2
...but how many Joe Sixpacks will have or even bother with an HTPC?


RE: Until
By Motoman on 6/23/2009 10:08:14 AM , Rating: 4
...that's because VHS tapes wear out quickly, not because they wanted to re-buy them. DVDs will last as long as Blu-Ray disks.


RE: Until
By ice456789 on 6/23/2009 11:07:28 AM , Rating: 5
Here are my personal barriers to entry, which will probably mirror the market barriers that BRD is dealing with.

Cost has already been discussed. It is not worth $300 + $30 per movie for me to upgrade, when current DVD's really don't look bad even on my 50" HDTV. The cost of the software is crippling.

If I were to jump in to BRD, a huge hurtle is portability. I have kids. If they wanted to watch Wall-e on a trip in the car I'd have to buy the DVD version. I understand some BRD's include a DVD version, but not a majority. That would probably be the biggest factor in deciding which kids movie to buy.

The single biggest thing keeping me from buying though is that I see disk media being phased out in a few years. Soon we'll be buying our movies on SD cards or just downloading/streaming them with. SD cards or flash drives seem to be very close to reality. The hardware involved to play them would not be expensive, and the disks themselves are always going down in price. Currently a single layer BRD holds 25 gigs (per Blu-ray.com). A 32 gig SD card can currently be had by a consumer for less than $70. If a movie company were to buy in bulk, I imagine that price would be halved. In a couple years it will be financially feasible to put movies onto SD cards. The question is will downloading/ streaming become mainstream before then?

The race to replace the DVD as the primary movie unit is underway, and IMO BRD trails far behind flash memory and downloading. The latter two formats are much more future-proofed. Download a movie to your house and if you need to take it with you, put it on a thumb drive or SD card and plug it right in to your car's video screen or your friend's TV. Just like MP3's have taken over music, so will digital take over movies. It's just a matter of time. BRD WILL become the next laserdisk.


RE: Until
By Parhel on 6/23/2009 12:35:03 PM , Rating: 5
My feelings exactly. Even if my DVD player were to break today, and I actually bought a BRD player to replace it, I can tell you with certainty that I would never purchase a single BluRay disc.

First off, I don't care to own movies in general. I watch them once, then they just take up space. For what I want to see, I have Netflix and I prefer to stream that over the Xbox. The only videos I'm likely to rewatch enough to bother owning are my kid's movies, and I want to be able to watch those in the car and on airplanes on my portable.


RE: Until
By deltadeltadelta on 6/23/2009 3:43:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The single biggest thing keeping me from buying though is that I see disk media being phased out in a few years.


EXACTLY! I HATE having my media tied to a device. Of course, even when it ends up in portable streams or files, there is still the codec/viewer problem. But at least we are moving in the right direction.


RE: Until
By ArcliteHawaii on 6/23/2009 4:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
You'll always be able to buy a BRD player. VHS has been around for 35 years and you can still buy VHS players.


RE: Until
By ice456789 on 6/24/2009 12:04:20 AM , Rating: 3
Tell that to my friend who owns a large library of laserdisks and his player just broke. Hey, it's been around for 15 years, he should still be able to buy one right?

BRD players will only be available in 10 years if they become the dominant media for movies, and I don't see that happening.


RE: Until
By Inkjammer on 6/23/2009 9:39:04 AM , Rating: 5
Yep, exactly. I still see Blu-ray discs being sold for $25, $30 and over. Sometimes I'll spot a disc "on sale" for $19.95 but that's hardly the average. Look at the same movie on DVD, and it's half the cost. Blu-ray has incredible advantages over regular DVDs, but the costs are monstrous by comparison.


RE: Until
By zombiexl on 6/23/2009 9:49:05 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I started buying BR's because my kids ruin all my dvd's. They know they arent allowed to touch the blue (or red, yes i still have some hd-dvds) cases.

Some BR's are starting to come with DVD and BR. Usually for under $30, which is good since I only have 1 ps3 in the house and no other BR players yet even though i have a few hd tv's.


RE: Until
By mcnabney on 6/23/2009 9:49:36 AM , Rating: 2
Why spend thousands replacing your DVD collection with BluRays when 4K is peeking around the corner?

4K displays can already be purchased.
4K media will only require a 100GB disk, which can already be done with a quad-layer BD.
There are already PC gaming cards and software that supports 4k resolutions.

BluRay is already irrelevant. In three years 4K will start entering the consumer market and people will buy into that since that is the maximum resolution that all film movies made up until now can be digitized. So 4K will be the long-term future standard so what is the point wasting money on BDs?


RE: Until
By Zandros on 6/23/2009 10:50:50 AM , Rating: 5
Very few sources provide enough visual detail for 4k to be of use. In most cases, I'd say 1080p is a stretch.