backtop


Print E-mail del.icio.us 171 comment(s) - last by EODetroit.. on Nov 16 at 10:51 AM


Chevy FlexFuel Avalanche  (Source: Turbo Diesel Register)
According to a U.N. expert biofuels represent a crime against mankind.

Jean Ziegler, the United Nations special reporter on the right to food and sociology professor at the University of Geneva and the University of the Sorbonne in Paris, stunned many Friday when he blasted biofuels.

Ziegler, who gave the remarks at a press conference at the U.N. headquarters in New York, posed dire predictions if the development of biofuels was to continue.  His remarks follow a Thursday presentation to the U.N. General Assembly's human rights committee on the dangers of biofuels.

He stated that blame for the record high price of some staple grain crops is directly attributable to biofuel initiatives.

This much is factually accurate it appears.  Between September 2006 and November 2006 corn prices rose 55 percent.  Corn prices are at record highs of over $3 USD per bushel.  The Wall Street Journal says this is largely due to the new industrial demand for corn for ethanol conversion.  This has caused food producers such as Tyson to struggle.

Ziegler ardently drove home this point at the press conference and stated that biofuels in their current state are not a good alternative to petroleum.  He said that he feared biofuels would bring more world hunger.  He stated that recklessly converting maize and sugar and other foodstuffs to biofuel was a "recipe for disaster."

In the U.S., the production of corn for ethanol has already overtaken its use for food, and President Bush has recently announced higher targets for the use in biofuels in U.S. vehicles. Wheat prices have more thandoubled in the past year, led by reduced cultivation of the grain.  Prices of meat and dairy staples have also risen, driven by higher foodstock prices for farm animals.

Ziegler pointed out that it takes 510 pounds of corn to produce 13 gallons of ethanol. That much corn could feed a child in Zambia or Mexico for a year, he said. He also stated that diverting arable land to cultivate crops to be used to produce biofuels or directly burned was a "crime against humanity."

''What has to be stopped is ... the growing catastrophe of the massacre [by] hunger in the world," Ziegler continued.

Ziegler requested that a five year worldwide ban on biofuel be put in place, to prevent such occurrences.

Ziegler stated that he is not entirely opposed to the idea of biofuels, just the current state of them.  He said that instituting a ban would allow for the development of technological advances that would allow conversion of waste materials such as corn cobs and banana leaves into fuel, as opposed to the crops themselves.

Such technologies may be possible, but the high starch and low sugar content of these biomaterials necessitates much more chemical and/or enzymatic processing.

Ziegler did point to the more practical use of oil-bearing crops in arid lands.  He elaborated that “the cultivation of Jatropha Curcas, a shrub that produces large oil-bearing seeds, appears to offer a good solution as it can be grown in arid lands that are not normally suitable for food crops.”

The International Monetary Fund issued similar, but less drastic, comments earlier this month.  The IMF, which is tasked with overseeing the global financial system, stated that the demand for biofuels may have dire consequences on the world's poor as it raises the cost of staple crops such as corn and maize to untenable prices.

A IMF report stated that "One country's policy to promote biofuels while protecting its farmers could increase another (likely poorer) country's import bills for food and pose additional risks to inflation or growth."

Biofuel is thought to be more environmentally friendly as the growth of crops, which absorb CO2, is thought to counteract its environmental impact, somewhat.  However, biofuels often need to expend energy and chemicals in their growth and also consume similar debts when being processed.  Overall the process is thought by experts to be slightly more environmentally friendly than petroleum. According to a recent UK government publication biofuels cut emissions "by 50-60 percent compared to fossil fuels," though their exact methodology at reaching this figure was not clearly stated.

However, new research demonstrates biofuels emit more greenhouse gases than fossil fuels.  A research team led by Nobel Prize-winning chemist Paul Crutzen calculated total emissions from crops such as rapeseed, corn, and sugarcane.  They found nitrous oxide (N2O) emissions were twice as high as previously understood. 

Total emissions from all sources were up to 70% higher than those the use of gasoline.  Crutzen, who won the Nobel for his work on the ozone layer, is widely respected in the field of climate research.

The charity organization Grain also released a report condemning biofuels as contributing to deforestation. The group also slammed biofuels for causing the return of the old colonial planting system to Asia, Africa, and Latin America, at the expense of local and indigenous communities.

Biofuels are certainly gaining steam. Between 2000 and 2005 the use of biofuels worldwide grew four-fold. Brazil leads the world in production, with over 16 billion liters of ethanol produced yearly from sugar-cane.  The European Union is also jumping on the biofuel bandwagon, with a mandate which calls for 5.75percent of transport fuels to come from biological sources by 2010.

The promise of cheap, renewable replacements for fossil fuels managed to turn America's Breadbasket into America's Gastank almost overnight.  Yet as Ziegler and others warn, such rapid transition is not without drawbacks.


Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

if we make all cars run on electricity....
By inperfectdarkness on 10/29/2007 12:04:00 PM , Rating: 4
seriously. if all cars run on electricity, then all we have to do is boost our production of solar, geothermal, and wind power. it's much easier to produce (and use) electricity than "invent" new ways to power the internal-combustion engine.




RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By mdogs444 on 10/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Christopher1 on 10/29/2007 1:20:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Electric cars have only achieved short distances


Wrong. Electric cars have achieved distances of 200 miles and more, when they have been built in certain ways, even when they have 4 seats and 4 people in them.

That is one of the BIGGEST lies out there, that electric cars can only be driven short distances. They can only go short distances (<100 miles) SOLELY on electric power, but most people say that electric cars would also have a gas-engine backup for longer trips.

Though..... who really drives a car more than 400 miles, at most at a time, anymore? I sure don't, and I can't think of anyone who would unless they were moving to another part of the country.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By phaxmohdem on 10/29/2007 1:31:04 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
who really drives a car more than 400 miles, at most at a time, anymore?


Vegas bound College kids ;)


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By PandaBear on 10/29/2007 9:14:51 PM , Rating: 1
I guess my 600 miles run between SF and San Diego every other week (with carpool) doesn't count as anymore.


By Ryanman on 10/30/2007 9:33:41 PM , Rating: 1
No, because you can charge at night. I'm not sure if you'd be able to do it all.. with having to trickle charge and all but still.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By TomZ on 10/29/2007 1:40:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Though..... who really drives a car more than 400 miles, at most at a time, anymore?

We do - family vacations out-of-state. Load up the car with kids, dog, lots of stuff and go! Sounds like fun, doesn't it? Flying isn't really an option for trips like that.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Screwballl on 10/29/2007 1:52:40 PM , Rating: 2
once a year I drive 2000 miles in 2 days running around 80-90mph the entire way.
There are a lot of people nowadays who still make long trips (400+ miles) 2-3 times per week. The travel time and distance is probably just as great in a city where someone may live an hour or two away from home.


By DragonMaster0 on 10/29/2007 5:36:27 PM , Rating: 1
Exactly, just once a year.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By ziggo on 10/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By spinaltap11 on 10/29/2007 11:48:37 PM , Rating: 4

Would be a good idea, except for the fact that these batteries are HUGE and heavy as hell. In addition to the neccesity for standardization of batteries and swap stations, we would also need to standardize the battery docks within cars such that they are easy to access and extremely resiliant to the inevitable wear and tear. I just don't see something like that being feasible in practice.

On the flip side, "filling up" can't be a 3-4 hour ordeal either. As it stands, all-electric vehicles are not suitable for anything beyond purely local driving.

Maybe we should just build giant power rails into the roads so that cars can get their power directly off the grid as they drive, akin to the 3rd rail on NYC subways. Now that's not a bad idea.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By mWMA on 10/30/07, Rating: 0
By Ryanman on 10/30/2007 9:37:01 PM , Rating: 1
and when the battery you got at said station fails or ruins your car, who gets liability? It's vastly impractical. You could get a box of lead and drive up to a station (doubtlessly automated) and switch out a cheap metal for an expensive battery. The whole Idea is just wishful thinking I believe.


By ira176 on 10/31/2007 5:28:16 AM , Rating: 3
They might just as well slap a photovoltaic cell on the roof, as long as the electric car already carries the large battery. It would help supplement the extra energy on those longer than 200 mile drives, at least during the day.


By doctor sam adams on 10/31/2007 12:41:37 AM , Rating: 1
Why do you go so fast? You're not flying a jet.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By mdogs444 on 10/29/2007 2:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
Acually, I know many people who drive 200 miles in a single day. Its called "salesmen".

Also, I if i want to go on vacation, what am i supposed to do - stop every 3 hours, and let the car charge for 4 hours before driving again? Wow, that would make a 12 hour trip to South Carolina take 24+ hrs.

Many people drive long distances, and quite often. In fact, my uncle drives 600 miles to work & back every week and stays there for 5 days.

So stop being under the assumption that most people live in the city, and that those people rarely ever leave the city, and that most people fly - all of which couldnt be further from the truth.


By ZmaxDP on 10/29/2007 4:30:11 PM , Rating: 3
When your whole post is in bold, it looses it's effect as a means of emphasis. Just FYI


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Etsp on 10/29/2007 11:25:38 PM , Rating: 2
I kinda doubt Iraq had 400,000 religious extremists when Saddam killed those people. Their religious beliefs may have made them all against his dictatorship, but I seriously doubt that there were 400,000 extremists


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By OrSin on 10/30/07, Rating: -1
By onelittleindian on 10/30/2007 1:59:24 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
number is from the number missed and dead, wiht less then 40K found dead
Don't play games. If Saddam's forces bombed your village in Iraq and no one ever found your body, then you're dead.

Oh, and that 400K figure is just the tip of the iceberg. That's just the Shias that Saddam killed during the 1991 uprising. It doesn't count the Kurds, the political prisoners, or several other categories.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By atticu5 on 10/29/2007 7:02:46 PM , Rating: 3
corn can be grown in much colder climates than sugar cane...

you can grow corn in wisconsin, illinois, nebraska, the dakotas, etc. meaning you can grow more of it, meaning it would be cheaper. sugar cane needs a warmer climate to grow, it grows in the tropics to be more exact. there is alot more open, uninhabited farm land to grow corn and other crops than sugar cane.

growing alot more sugar cane would mean cutting down alot of the rain forests in the world in order to grow that sugar. that would mean the loss of habitats, species (i think its something like 70% of all the known animal and plant species in the world live in the tropical rain forests) as well as cutting down the "lungs of the world." the rain forests are responsible for converting alot of CO2 into O2.

using brazil as your example for usign sugar cane as fuel is just stupid, its one thing for a country to supply itself with enough fuel from sugar cane, but its another for it to supply a continent. they are now also growing corn in brazil in order to export more ethanol, and they are doing so because its more economical to produce ethanol from corn than it is from sugar cane because of the costs to grow corn compared to sugar cane.

there are more factors that go into deciding what to get ethanol from than just which one produces more ethanol per acre.

ps: i am sitting in an environmental biology class right now :)


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By dluther on 10/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By tmouse on 10/30/2007 9:39:44 AM , Rating: 1
"It's this kind of unintelligent reply that exemplifies the main problem with America" You also display the same ignorance you profess to despise. Your knowledge of the availability of land suitable for producing sugar cane is poor at best. Most of those regions are NOT well suited for sugar cane production. It was tried and failed over 200 years ago when sugar cane was a major export from the “new world". Now I am not saying other crops are not better than corn, sugar beets MAY be useful, and other high oil crops for diesel as well as ethanol. The MAIN problem is everyone seems to be looking for a single solution which is pure nonsense. It will require a mix to solve the problem, electric, natural gas, bio fuels. All of them in varying amounts in different areas will be needed. Energy production is NOT a one size fits all problem. For some wind is useful but NOT everywhere, solar quite possibly, maybe in a more distant future. The FACTS are that you also have to balance the economic factors, it’s just realistic. This quote from Jean Ziegler was professionally irresponsible; he is a fool pure and simple. I'm not saying some of his points are not right but the term "crime against humanity" in this context is pure nonsense. There are MANY reasons for the observations of the food increases, Fuel costs,the loss of small family farms, previous administrations subsidies to NOT grow things like wheat to stabilize prices all contributed equally if not more. The simple fact is in the US E85 is an EXTREAMLY SMALL percentage of fuel production. Again a full fledged switch over is NOT an answer but and increase is part of the solution. By the way the idea that 90% of all corn production going for fuel is just pure extremist hyperbole, its is not going to happen. It is said to evoke an emotional response, it is simply not economically viable. Over 30 % of US corn production is converted into high fructose syrup because it stores better and a decrease in our diets would only help us in the US. A significant amount of the corn exported to third world countries is in fact a US government subsidized product (payments for the growers for a loss of the profit it would produce in other forms) so even without bio fuel production that amount would not increase much.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By masher2 (blog) on 10/30/2007 11:34:05 AM , Rating: 4
> "Fuel costs,the loss of small family farms, previous administrations subsidies to NOT grow things like wheat to stabilize prices all contributed equally if not more"

Nonsense. We've had grain subsidies for decades. They prop up prices, but they don't cause them to double overnight. And the "loss of small farms" has been going on for over a century-- its the primary reason food prices have declined, not risen. Large farms can grow food cheaper; that's why they predominate.

> The simple fact is in the US E85 is an EXTREAMLY SMALL percentage of fuel production"

The important factor is that an extremely large percentage of all US corn is now being used to produce ethanol. Over half, in fact. Farmers are also growing less wheat and other crops, in their rush to produce corn for ethanol.

That has serious, undeniable effects of world grain prices.

Yes, this huge percentage of corn production barely makes a dent in total fuel consumption. That's actually another strike against it. It demonstrates that, unless and until biofuel technology improves dramatically, it's not going to make any real difference. The massive government subsidies today are wasted money; those dollars should be funding research instead.


By B on 10/30/2007 3:25:22 PM , Rating: 2
To help frame your context of the amount of fuel used:

U.S. Petroleum Consumption 20,802,000 barrels/day

US ethonal production for 2006 4,855 million gallons, which converts to 156,612,903 barrels. However, the energy content of a barrel of ethonal compared to a barrel of oil is less, but for the sake of discussion lets assume they are the same. With that genorous assumption, it means that all the 2006 US produced ethonal provided the US with 7.8 days worth of fuel for the whole year (156,612,903/20,802,000bpd=7.5 days).

Oil consumption numbers are 2005 numbers from the DOE. Link
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.ht...

Ethonal production numbers source: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/industry/statistics/

FYI I did the conversions/calculations myself on google - feel free to verify accuracy.

An aside - I bet all those tractors burning 600 gallons of diesel a day to grow all that corn, in aggregate, used a material amount of fuel. This and other externalities should be considered.


By tmouse on 10/31/2007 3:58:06 PM , Rating: 2
I do not know where this 50% figure comes from but it is simply NOT TRUE. Break downs from the USDA and commerce department put use for feed at 51 to 54% and use for food and industrial purposed (this includes ethanol production) at 14-18% with the rest for export. This agrees with the numbers from industry groups citing use of approximately. 2 billion bushels of corn for TOTAL ethanol production (the US produced a little more than 11.1 billion bushels last year. I am neither saying that is not a lot nor am I saying uncontrolled growth is good but it a far cry from the 50-90% figures others are spouting. The energy differentials are also suspect. Most trace back to a paper from Pimentel Patzek at Cornell. If you read the paper their numbers are correct but keep in mind the energy calculations used included the energy for the tractors, fertilizer, labor, irrigation, transport even the amount of loss due to the conversion of solar power into plant mass! The vast majority of these costs will be spent regardless if the corn is for fuel or food so there is absolutely NO savings there. Using their calculations absolutely NO bio production what so ever can be net positive, it is simply mathematically impossible. As for the wheat argument, energy production has very little to due with it. It has been steadily declining since the 80's due to a drop in demand (bad carb syndrome and government surpluses resulting in far lower prices. Some have moved to GE corn and soybeans that are engineered to be more cold hardy (The wheat belt and the corn belt do not overlap that much) but they would do that whether we used the corn for food or energy as a matter of fact the vast majority of the decline has gone to the governments "retired land project" which is ending so that land is currently fallow.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By dluther on 10/30/2007 8:09:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You also display the same ignorance you profess to despise. Your knowledge of the availability of land suitable for producing sugar cane is poor at best. Most of those regions are NOT well suited for sugar cane production. It was tried and failed over 200 years ago when sugar cane was a major export from the “new world".


How so? Large tracts of land in coastal Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, and areas in Southern Arkansas, and even Georgia and South Carolina have a suitable climate (hot and humid) and areas with either rainfall averages of 24"/year (or better), or large natural reservoirs for use in drip irrigation -- perfect for growing sugar cane. Cane does not necessarily need to be an annual crop as roots and stalks are shown to be resistant during dormancy in mildly cold climates. This land is also mostly undeveloped due to its poor cross-metropolitan placement and unsuitable for building due to its base consistency.

So if growing sugar cane yields more ethanol (by nearly a factor of three by the most conservative estimates), and there's readily available equipment and land to do so, it begs the question of why it isn't being used.

Corn, on the other hand, is one of the five federally subsidized crops, including soybeans, wheat, cotton, and rice. So let's look at the economic factors there -- corn is a federally subsidized crop, add a premium for selling to oil production facilities instead of granaries -- it doesn't take a mental colossus to understand the economic benefits to the growers of corn, who have a very large and powerful lobbying group in Washington.

Last year, farmers grew more corn to meet the demands of ethanol production, at the expense of soybean and wheat production. From the USDA web site:

quote:
The growing corn demand of ethanol producers could also be satisfied through higher corn output. Rising productivity is likely to assure some increase in U.S. corn production in the years to come, even if the amount of farmland devoted to corn remains constant. Over the past decade (1996-2005), U.S. corn yields averaged 138 bushels per acre, compared with 115 bushels during the previous decade. The United States also could increase corn production by devoting more land to the commodity. Such an effort would probably draw upon lands less suited to corn production. Much of these lands would probably be diverted from soybean production.


Now, if you were to take those bushels/acre quotes at face value -- I don't -- you must at least be cognizant of the fact that there is only so much corn that can be yielded from an acre of land. When you also factor in corn's (or really any crop's) seasonal volatility to flood, drought, fire, or pests, you find that ethanol availability is a much more volatile resource than oil.

Already the price of corn has risen 4X over the past three years, soybean and wheat have similarly risen due to general unavailability. We're not making any more land, so then what to do in order to satisfy the demands of all the ethanol processing plants that have risen in the corn belt over the past few years. Import corn? Talk about an expensive way to relieve your dependence on foreign oil...

quote:
The simple fact is in the US E85 is an EXTREAMLY [sic] SMALL percentage of fuel production.


Yes, unfortunately you're absolutely right -- an extremely small percentage. Yet last year alone, 50% of our corn crop was diverted to ethanol production. And by 2010, that estimate is expected to rise to 80%.

quote:
The FACTS are that you also have to balance the economic factors, it’s just realistic.


That too is correct. Unfortunately, the economic facts in a capitalistic society such as ours bear out the fact that our government is for sale to the highest bidder. And since corn farmers have more money to throw at congress than do sugarcane farmers, guess who wins that coin toss? Never mind the facts of the matter, the hard evidence, the sheer power of numbers. It's all about the money.

Ethanol is the ultimate pander. As a fuel additive, it doesn't really cut down on VOCs; it merely shifts them from hydrocarbons to nitrates. Ethanol hasn't affected gasoline prices one penny. Consider that E85 gasoline is a subsidized product, and it's typically a dollar cheaper than gasoline. Nobody has hard numbers representing the true price of ethanol, but since most estimates put it on par with gasoline production, it seems that the benefits of ethanol are coming from an artificial source.

Waste biomass (offal, manure, waste vegetation, particulate matter) can be refined into a sweet crude suitable for refining through a process called thermal depolymerization. When you think about the amount of such waste from stockyards, poultry farms, the entire state of Georgia -- one has to wonder why there's only one of these facilities to the hundreds of ethanol refining facilities.

Low-sulfur diesel can be produced by processing leftover cooking grease. Think about every fast-food chain you encounter, and this makes process makes some good sense at a regional level, yet only Sheryl Crow and Willie Nelson are doing it.

I'll finish with this: When you have an administration whose leader exchanges his science advisor for a spiritual advisor, well honestly, what did you expect?


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By tmouse on 11/1/2007 8:43:16 AM , Rating: 2
There are many factors to the equation than you are taking into account. Here is just a few: Sugar cane growth requires an average temperature of 26-32 C with 10-12 months of direct sunlight. It requires 75 to 129 cm of annual rainfall and any soil other than sandy soil results in a 25% decrease in yield. These requirements severely limit the land for growth of this product. Even where it can be grown in the continental US it requires 1.5 to 3 times more nitrogen fertilizer and 2-6 times more Potassium than corn. The available soils do contain the required calcium, sulfur and iron but require supplementation with boron, copper and often manganese. Even WITH supplementation, continental US cane production results in 50% LESS yield per acre than areas like Brazil and Hawaii. Currently mainland American cane producers find it VERY unprofitable to sell their product for ethanol production due to its low yield and high production costs. I am in general agreement that corn is not the best choice for the long term I strongly disagree with the hypotheses that it is useless. Certainly other crops will be better possibly sugar beets or the grasses such as switch grass or miscanthus which can yield 2-3 times the ethanol of sugar cane and with less land restriction and production costs. The problem is they are single use products (even when used for ethanol production 30 % of the corn components are recycled as feed) and require different distillery infrastructure which has ,as yet, not been scaled from research to production levels.


By dluther on 11/1/2007 11:27:47 AM , Rating: 1
I wasn't saying that sugar cane would be a hearty crop, nor was I postulating a year-round growing season. But by those same rules, corn isn't an annual crop either, and in fact the growing season for corn is roughly half what it would be in the areas I'm talking about for sugar cane. And also, the areas I'm talking about are mostly dried peat bogs with a sandy loam base, which is *perfect" for growing things like sugar cane and alligators. Every other factor you mention such as adding nutrients to soil is part and parcel of farming.

But let me say this, because I think that we are both in agreement on my basic premise which is that using our food crops for energy production isn't simply just not a good idea, it's sheer madness. And when you get right down to it, ethanol is a piss-poor oxygenate compared to other additives.

Consider this also: an 80-85% ethanol blend will significantly decreases your gas mileage, effectively negating the fuel savings you thought you were getting.

So let me be clear, just so there's no misunderstanding: Ethanol is a bad idea. The concept is bad, and the execution is a nightmare because of all the interrelated costs. Ethanol is evil, and anyone who thinks differently has simply not looked at the big picture.

Refineable crude from exiting, readily available waste materials works, and it works very well. It solves the problem of our dependence on foreign oil, and it solves a lot of other problems that have yet to be sufficiently addressed, like the mountain of shit that spontaneously combusts outside a stockyard (look it up).

quote:
(even when used for ethanol production 30 % of the corn components are recycled as feed)


Again, let me remind you that that's not a 30% suppliment, that's a 70% reduction of feed. Have you noticed that almost every food item has increased in price? That's because corn is used to feed everything from catfish to cows. Increase the cost of feed, and you increase the cost of the end product.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By theles on 10/30/2007 2:48:09 PM , Rating: 2
Hi. I'm Brazilian, and I live in Brazil, so, I'm 100% sure of what I'll say. Those of you who said that the production of ethanol will bring starvation and destroy the Rain Forests, should study geography a little more.

First, the soil were Rain Forests grow in Brasil, aren't usable by agriculture, it's too sandy; and there's the distance factor, for you guys understand: Rain Forest are in New York Sugar Cane areas are in Texas. That's the distance.

Second, Sugar Cane is more than 10 times more efficient on the ethanol production than corn. The problem on the ethanol production on US is that Mr. Bush push the taxes over Brazilian ethanol to benefit both the corn farms and the oil companies since ethanol is much cheaper than Gasoline and much less pollutant. So I suggest that you go ask him, why he's taking the corn of your tables to put in your cars.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By masher2 (blog) on 10/30/2007 4:19:46 PM , Rating: 2
> "First, the soil were Rain Forests grow in Brasil, aren't usable by agriculture"

Then why are tens of millions of Rainforest acres being cleared for agriculture every year? Brazilian or no, you might want to check your facts here.

Some sugar cane *is* cultivated directly in the rainforest. But that's not the real problem, which is that additional sugar cane expands in Southern Brazil, that forces Soy production into the North. Nearly half of all Brazilian rainforest loss is now in the the Mato Grasso state, where vast new soy plantations are springing up.

Here's a couple links:

http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0516-ethanol_amazon....
http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0521-rhett_butler.ht...

> "The problem on the ethanol production on US is that Mr. Bush push the taxes over Brazilian ethanol"

Are you suggesting that, without US tariffs, Brazil could supply the US's energy needs with ethanol? Even in Brazil itself, only 18% of all oil usage is supplanted by ethanol. US demand is many times higher. Where is all this extra sugar cane going to be grown?


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By theles on 10/30/2007 6:40:05 PM , Rating: 2
Let me correct myself in two tings:

First: Not every soil in the Rain Forest area are usable by agriculture. Yes, there some areas, specially in the north of the state of Mato Grosso that are being used for agriculture, soy for the most.

But, what almost nobody say and is what you must understand is that, the forests aren't being destroyed for soy production. The extraction of noble kinds of woods cause this. It took more than 100 years to a Mogno(Mahogany? I don't know his name in english) Tree achieve 5 foots of diameter and 40 foots high, and of course, it gives a large amount of money for those who sell it illegaly. And there's a lot of folks that buy these, specially in Japan, Germany and US.

What's happening now is that in those devastated areas, there's some cultures of Soy and sugar cane, but the govenment hasn't decided yet if these cultures will be allowed. Like I said, there's yet the transport problem. In that region, mostly because of the huge amount of rain, there's no usable roads to let the soy for the consumers.

The state of Mato Groso today is the leader in soy production, because they're using areas that was deflorestated long ago. Nobody here is putting down the rain forrest to open fields of sugar cane and soy. The areas that you're saying that have some sugar cane, are minimal.

Second: The problem on the ethanol production on US is that Mr. Bush push the taxes over ANY ethanol that isn't produced in US (as he does with orange juice, and many other products). You can find tremendous areas in the Affrican continent that aren't habited and has minimal ecosystems, and will help to bring an end in the starvation for millions.

Oh yes, there's a plus on ethanol of sugar cane. The plant after the straction, can be used to fire up, instead coal or wood or can be used as organic fertilizer. And there's a company in Brasil researching to make the waste of the ethanol to be used as correction for the soil.

And there's an interesting thing about what you write: You ask me if Brazil could suply the needs, but you didn't tell anything about why the US govenment use these "protection" taxes...


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By masher2 (blog) on 10/30/2007 10:58:54 PM , Rating: 2
> "what you must understand is that, the forests aren't being destroyed for soy production. The extraction of noble kinds of woods cause this "

I'm sorry, but your opinion here doesn't match the facts. The rainforest is being cleared for many purposes, agriculture, cattle grazing, plantations, among them. In most cases, the clearing is simple "slash-and-burn"; existing woods aren't even harvested.

Increased land use in Southern Brazil for cane puts pressure on cattle ranchers, soy growers, and other users of agricultural land, who then turn to the undeveloped North-- the Rainforest. I've posted links to media stories confirming this, as well as the opinion of learned experts. If you want to counter this, you need to put forth more than a "because I say so!" argument.

> "And there's a lot of folks that buy these, specially in Japan, Germany and US"

Ahh...I knew it all had to be all our fault somehow.

> "you didn't tell anything about why the US govenment use these "protection" taxes... "

Why? To protect the US farmer of course. But I don't think you want to attack that policy too deeply, as Brazil's use of protectionary tariffs is far more extensive than is the US. In fact, Brazil currently has one of the most far-reaching protectionary policies in the world, covering thousands of products (everything from automobiles, computer goods, and used machinery, to coconuts and peaches) with import duties as high as 60% on some products.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By theles on 10/31/2007 8:43:26 AM , Rating: 2
>In most cases, the clearing is simple "slash-and-burn"; existing woods aren't even harvested.

Well, I really don't know where do you get those informations, but they are really mistaken. There are an enormous types of noble woods, do you realize how much a 5x40 foot log of noble wood cost? Thousands of US dollars. Even Hundreds of thousands. Do you really think that they will "slash an burn" it?

>"Ahh...I knew it all had to be all our fault somehow."

Unfortunately, this fault is ours. For the greater part of us Brazilians, it is a shame to see how much corruption can be caused when that kind of money are involved. There's a bureau here called IBAMA, that give licenses to extract the woods in certain areas. What happens is that some are selling those licenses for thousands of dollars that are used in illegal wood extraction.

When you say that, in the southern Brazil the cane sugar puts pressure, etc...I believe that you, and most of the Americans, didn't realize the size of Brasil. There's a lot of areas, specially in the Northeast that aren't yet used by agriculture. And these areas are better for sugar cane and soy than the Rain Forest areas.

For the taxes, I said specifically over ethanol. In US, I believe that aren't large areas that can be used for sugar cane production, the corn should not be used for ethanol production, or should be used only when the offer for food suppressed the needs. Some posts ago, the discussion was this, corn has being used for production of ethanol instead for food. And for that I believe that ethanol from other countries shouldn't be over taxed.

But what is most interesting is this:
http://archive.greenpeace.org/forests/maps/global_...

Where happens to the forests in the Europe and in the US? Why you all are so concerned about what happens here, and don't care about what happens in yours backyards? Don't you think that's best think about in reflorestate the US and start to follow the Kioto Protocol first and worry about Brazil later? Why only now, that we are growing in areas such energy, these questions over rain forest arise?


By masher2 (blog) on 10/31/2007 10:29:59 AM , Rating: 2
> "Do you really think that they will "slash an burn" it?"

Yes. I've seen pictures of them doing it. Here's some photos for you:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Study/AmazonFire/

> "These areas [in Brazil] are better for sugar cane and soy than the Rain Forest areas"

Possibly. But cleared rainforest areas ARE being used for agriculture, as well as cattle grazing by ranchers displaced from southern areas converted to cane production. This is indisputable fact.

> "For that I believe that ethanol from other countries shouldn't be over taxed"

You still haven't explained how Brazil can supply the US's vast demand for for ethanol, when it can't even fully fill its own much smaller needs. Brazil still uses five times as much gasoline as it does ethanol. So where is all this extra ethanol going to come from?

> "Don't you think that's best think about in reflorestate the US"

Forested land in the US has actually increased in the past century.


By clovell on 11/1/2007 3:55:04 PM , Rating: 1
I'm surpirsed nobody has mentioned the fact that sugarcane must be harvested by hand.


By Ringold on 10/29/2007 7:16:34 PM , Rating: 1
You proved that you're a partisan hack and that both parties can indeed be corrupted when lobbyists of any industry group shower millions on any party. Congratulations.

And lookie. I found the "B" button too.


By lifeblood on 10/30/2007 9:34:57 AM , Rating: 1
Your fooling yourself. Farm subsidies are bipartisan. Both republicans and democrats are guilty of them.


By Lord 666 on 10/29/2007 6:19:28 PM , Rating: 3
FEAST!


By 91TTZ on 10/30/2007 10:43:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Though..... who really drives a car more than 400 miles, at most at a time, anymore? I sure don't, and I can't think of anyone who would unless they were moving to another part of the country.


While my everyday commute is only several miles, I still need to make a 200 mile trip every week or so. I'm not going to rent a car every week to make that trip.

Most people will find that they, too, need to make long trips occasionally, too often to have to rent a car.


By Cheapshot on 10/30/2007 11:31:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
who really drives a car more than 400 miles?


Pizza delivery?


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By tdawg on 10/29/2007 1:34:56 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you that we simply cannot generate enough alternative energy to replace fossil fuels, yet. We will eventually exhaust the oil supply. When is anybody's guess, but I think we can all agree that oil is not an infinite commodity.

The search for cleaner, more efficient, energy sources can only be a good thing. If we can begin to prepare now for what future generations may have to deal with, we are doing something beneficial.

Anybody who hasn't seen the documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car , and who is concerned about our reliance on fossil fuels, should sit down and watch it.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By mdogs444 on 10/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Oregonian2 on 10/29/2007 2:21:21 PM , Rating: 4
Crude oil running out someday is exactly as possible as you or I dying someday. Hopefully not ever, but logic suggests otherwise.


By Hoser McMoose on 10/29/2007 6:10:20 PM , Rating: 5
It's unlikely that we'll "run out" of crude oil any time in the foreseeable future, however it's absolutely inevitable that we will hit peak production at SOME stage.

The rate at which crude oil is created, through natural processes, is MUCH lower than the rate at which we are extracting it. Since the earth is, for most purposes, a closed system it is 100% certain that we're going to peak unless we find a way to produce more oil.

The question is not IF we will peak, but WHEN we will peak and what the other side of the peak will look like. As you correctly state, people have been talking about oil peaking for a LONG time now, but up until 2004 at least it hadn't happened. Exact numbers are a bit hazy, but it looks as though we may have hit at least a short-term peak somewhere between 2005 and 2007, though that may be only a blip rather than the actual peak.

The other side of the peak is perhaps the more interesting question. There are lots of doomsday scenarios that paint this as the end of civilization as we know it. From my perspective though economic history doesn't support that notion. More likely the rules of supply and demand will give us a fairly gentle peak and downward slope (high prices will limit demand and encourage exploration), while long-term alternatives can be brought up to speed.

As for batteries, new Li-Ion batteries are actually rather environmentally friendly beast. Even if they aren't recycled properly the materials in them aren't all that toxic. Really though they can and should be recycled. Current lead acid car batteries get about 95%+ recycled, so we've got a good background to go on already.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Donkeyshins on 10/29/2007 7:53:33 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, there is proof of running out of oil. The earth is of a finite size, therefore at some point in time (which is under debate) we will run out of oil. Unless Jesus has created a magical oil fountain at the center of the earth, that is.

With regards to solar and wind power, it would be quite easy to increase the amount of solar power generated - require all new construction include solar panels on the roof (unless in a region unsuited -- e.g. in the middle of a forest), and provide aggressive and generous rebates / tax breaks to those people or businesses that wish to retrofit solar panels to existing construction.

One problem is that our mindset is focused on an infrastructure based upon AC power provided by a centralized utility (e.g. Westinghouse's model) as opposed to Edison's model (DC power generated locally). Since solar is only effective during the day and since the majority of household appliances run off of DC power, perhaps moving to a housewide AC-DC converter that is fed by AC power at night and by DC solar during daylight hours is a better model?

Just my $0.02.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Tsuwamono on 10/29/2007 10:22:44 PM , Rating: 2
I think thats a great idea. Coupled with the use of Wind, water and geothermal power it is entirely possibly to create a much greener way of producing electricity for our society. Lets face it, cars are not the biggest polluters we have. Its our industry and our coal plants.

My personal opinion is that our action plan should be as follows;

1. More nuclear power plants to suppliment the loss of our coal power plants when they are shut down.

2. Shut down all coal power plants.

3. Create a subsidy program for people who implement solar power into their homes or businesses.(even more so for those who actually CONTRIBUTE to the grid)

4. Build large wind farms, new dams and Geothermal power plants.

5. Begin to close down oldest nuclear power plants in succession until all are closed while simultaneously bringing online more geothermal plants

6. Continue research on nuclear Fusion power as a source of green power.

Fairly simple but obviously much more complicated then 6 easy steps.


By Hulk on 10/30/2007 12:17:16 AM , Rating: 2
Good ideas but...

1. Environmentalists and Democrats won't allow it.
2. Can't occur until #1 occurs.
3. Already there.
4. Again Democrats won't allow it. Ruins sightlines, kills tree frogs, etc...
5. Can't happen until #4 happens.
6. Yes, pulse fusion looks promising.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By dluther on 10/30/2007 8:06:02 AM , Rating: 1
You're my hero.


By Tsuwamono on 10/30/2007 8:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
That's what i like to hear.


By Bioniccrackmonk on 10/29/2007 12:24:37 PM , Rating: 2
Well, we have a source of electricity that is not only proven to work but also the most cost efficient, as far as amount of material used to receive the most amount of electricity. But mention the word nuclear, or like Bush likes to say, nucular, and you get a bunch of people up in arms regurgitating An Inconvenient Truth.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Christopher1 on 10/29/07, Rating: 0
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 10/29/2007 1:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm, I wish we had the power source from Doctor Who Impossible Planet. :)


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By geddarkstorm on 10/29/2007 1:40:48 PM , Rating: 2
There are definitely advancements going on in that area. Notably with glassification which eliminates the radioactivity of spent fuel. The problem with current reactors that use the spent fuel from other reactors, from my limited understanding, is they can convert the fuel into weapons grade stuff for bombs and such. But, there are definite solutions in the work, and I'm sure if they pumped all this money they are into biofuels into research for nuclear reactors, we'd figure it out a lot quicker.


By BVT on 10/29/2007 3:15:39 PM , Rating: 2
You mean Vitrification. It does not eliminate radioactivity, only contains it in a easy to move, more stable vessel.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By GreenEnvt on 10/29/2007 2:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
I still say load the spent nuclear waste onto cargo rockets, and launch it into the sun. The sun will take car of it :)


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Oregonian2 on 10/29/2007 2:39:36 PM , Rating: 2
NASA already gets major grief with the really teeny-tiny nuclear based power generators they use for their deep space probes (ones going out away from the sun). Problem is the possibility of rocket failure during launch and getting it out away from earth.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By masher2 (blog) on 10/29/2007 2:47:21 PM , Rating: 2
> "Problem is the possibility of rocket failure during launch and getting it out away from earth. "

Such an RTG already crashed to earth when the unused Apollo 13 moon lander broke up in the atmosphere. Zero radioactivity was released. When you're dealing with something as small as an RTG, it's really not that difficult to make a casing able to withstand catastrophic failure of the launch platform.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Ringold on 10/29/2007 2:53:53 PM , Rating: 2
I wondered what happened to that thing in the movie...


By Bioniccrackmonk on 10/29/2007 3:41:53 PM , Rating: 2
It was classified and above everyones pay grade in that movie, so it was left out. :)


By Ringold on 10/29/2007 7:18:17 PM , Rating: 3
Well.. it just disconnected and floated away..

For all I knew, it was picked up by Vger or shot by Klingons.


By Hoser McMoose on 10/29/2007 6:20:57 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
some of which will last longer than you are alive by 1000 times or more.

The nice thing about radioactive waste is that it's either dangerous or long lived, but not both. That's simply how radiation works.

If the waste is giving off lots of radiation than it's losing it's radioactive material quickly and will have a short half life. The really dangerous stuff in nuclear reactors have half lives of less than 30 days, so in under a year it's totally gone (less than 0.01% of the original).

The long-lived stuff, by definition, is not giving off much radiation. Even the boogeyman of plutonium (Pu-239) with it's ~30,000 year half life is extremely safe as long as you don't eat the stuff or turn it into a bomb. The radiation it gives off is totally harmless when it's not inside your body, the outermost layer of dead skin cells stops it. The stuff with the million year half lives is totally benign (at least in terms of radioactivity).

The only real problem are the middle of the ground things, as we're seeing in the area around the Chernobyl reactors in Russia. There it's radiative isotopes of Strontium and Caesium that are most worrying because they have ~30 year half lives and spreading such stuff all around isn't a particularly good idea (but then again, a LOT of what was done in the Soviet nuclear power program wasn't a very good idea). If these can be seal properly and stored for 300 years or more then they would be totally safe.


By Hulk on 10/30/2007 12:18:40 AM , Rating: 1
Already have very efficient breeder reactors.

France is 80% nuke.

What you are asking is magic. Please wake up.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By tdawg on 10/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By masher2 (blog) on 10/29/2007 1:52:53 PM , Rating: 5
> "Nuclear waste is quite possibly one of the scariest materials we can conceive of "

Only for people who don't understand how much natural radioactivity we're exposed to on a daily basis. Most don't realize that your average coal power plant releases a kilogram or two of uranium a day, just from that found naturally in the coal itself. Or realize that if they live in a New England or Rocky Mountain state, they already have hundreds of kilos of radioactive waste in their own backyard...waste left over from when Mother Nature made the planet.

> "Until we figure out how to recycle it in some sense, or accelerate its half-life"

High level waste can be recycled in a breeder reactor or, better yet, a "Rubbiatron" type generator.


By tdawg on 10/29/2007 2:22:37 PM , Rating: 1
Perception is the key, though. I guarantee that you could teach everyone everything they need to know about natural occurrences of radioactivity and still have a difficult time in convincing someone to stand next to an open container of radioactive waste for a few minutes rather than going to Colorado for the week.

I know they're working on processes to deal with radioactive waste, but even if they get that straightened out, there is still a real problem in convincing people to adopt nuclear energy as the solution. One need only mention Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, or Hanford, and they'll scare people away.

I know this is getting a little off topic and that the risk:reward ratio of nuclear energy could be debated ad nauseum. It's definitely a contentious issue and I have to believe that there are better alternatives out there. We just need to fund the research.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 10/29/2007 1:57:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Nuclear waste is quite possibly one of the scariest materials we can conceive

See Doctor Who reference above :)

On a more serious note, I'm considerably more terrified of nanosludge than anything else in the world today. Especially since nobody is interested in researching the effects of billions of buckyballs floating around in the environment.


By JoshuaBuss on 10/29/2007 2:58:53 PM , Rating: 6
so true. at least we have some idea what radiation is and what we can do with it.. nano waste is TRULY scary.


By drwho9437 on 10/29/2007 4:37:38 PM , Rating: 2
First I agree that nuclear is good tech. I think fusion perhaps is the best real bet, however I disagree with the Doctor Who, I much prefer the power source in Meglos.


By drwho9437 on 10/29/2007 4:42:59 PM , Rating: 2
I work on nanoelectronics, it worries me also, but I think there is probably quite a lot of nano dust already naturally. I think there is potential for problems though. In fact I told someone that would be on the front pages of the papers in a few years as a huge hazard (after the fad has died)


By Bioniccrackmonk on 10/29/2007 3:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nuclear waste is quite possibly one of the scariest materials we can conceive of and adding more of it to our landscape is a questionable strategy


I think all the biological/chemical warfare weapons we have conceived of and seen some used in the past are worse then hundreds of barrels of nuclear material tucked into a facility designed to store them. Also, with vitrification, storing waste is safer then it ever has been. Just look at all the other countries that use nuclear power as their main source, they seem to doing quite fine.


By masher2 (blog) on 10/29/2007 5:23:08 PM , Rating: 2
> "I think all the biological/chemical warfare weapons we have conceived of and seen some used in the past are worse "

Very true. A single vial of a biologic agent could concievably end the human race. That certainly trumps any toxic material, radioactive or no.


By drwho9437 on 10/29/2007 4:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
Do you realize how horribly polluting the semiconductor industry is (read: solar)?

I work on semiconductors and the chemical wastes aren't nice things.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By Oregonian2 on 10/29/2007 2:36:05 PM , Rating: 3
Yup, I'd give nuclear about a 95% chance of being the major power source sixty years from now (if not much sooner, maybe 25). Just doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon of sufficient scale to replace petroleum and other sources (coal, natural gas, etc will decline as well as sources). Even here in the PNW, hydroelectric power which is "free" and renewable is being taken offline and destroyed as result of lawsuits to protect fish (which likely won't survive anyway). Some of the new wind-generation farms in our state are being "attacked" in today's newspaper as being a problem with eagles. Wouldn't be surprised if they had to be shut down at some point too.

In addition to replacement power, there is increasing new demand from progress in lesser developed countries "catching up". Those populations' increase in world demand for power will be a LOT greater than now, despite even heroic and successful conservation efforts.

P.S. - Solar power is technically a nuclear fusion power source! But putting up solar arrays will hurt the environment below them, so those if they get large will be sued out of existence for environmental concerns.


By Ringold on 10/29/2007 2:53:05 PM , Rating: 2
As an example, look at France. Nuclear power is already a reality there, though how they managed that I don't know.

Just across the border in Germany, on the other hand, the popular movement has been to eradicate all nuclear power. If not for being aware that Russia has them by the balls with oil just as they did with Berlin, walls and tanks not all that long ago they'd already be further down the road to decomissioning them.

Meanwhile, China desires to throw them up as fast as they possibly can.

<machiavelli>
The industry has a long way to go it seems in the developed world, such as fighting the FUD-spreading former-communist extreme so-called environmentalists, but I generally agree it's on the rise. Even if the great unwashed masses don't buy it, leaders will see it's one of the few practical ways forward and shove it down the masses throats one way or another.

</machiavelli>


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By FITCamaro on 10/29/2007 1:43:43 PM , Rating: 1
Yes then we just directly poison our landscapes with tens of millions of spent batteries in 20 years.


By drwho9437 on 10/29/2007 4:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
Recycling batteries isn't that complex. I would assume you are talking large rechargeable batteries for lots of things. Or you can use unlimited electrical power to synthesize hydrocarbons, to burn in a fuel cell (nothing more than a kind of battery really).

If fusion can get established it could solve this problem, for dense areas, and that would do a lot to help.


RE: if we make all cars run on electricity....
By BUL on 10/29/2007 6:17:32 PM , Rating: 3
So have any of the armchair environmental activists here actually compared efficiencies of electric vs. gasoline/diesel engines? While I don't claim to know much on the subject, it seems that an electric engine is horribly inefficient vs. an internal combustion engine...

For example, if the power source is coal or nuclear: Potential energy --> Mechanical energy to turn turbine to make electricity (max 40% efficiency, rest lost as heat) --> power loss over transmission lines (heat) --> charge battery (inefficient, heat loss) --> battery leakage --> convert battery power to mechanical energy (heat loss).

Internal combustion engine