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Bill Gates says a college education is plunging in value and that true "self-motivated" learners are flocking to the web, instead.  (Source: YouTube)
Famous college dropout predicts that college degrees will become less and less useful

Bill Gates founded Microsoft, the world's largest software company, back in 1975 after dropping out of Harvard University.  Gates was critical in propelling his company to its incredibly dominant position in the operating systems industry and to its expansion into other market niches as well.  While semi-retired, Gates remains active at Microsoft and involved a vast variety of charitable efforts.  These days he's even helping to design a nuclear reactor.

For all his success, apparently he's still not a fan of college, though.  Despite receiving an honorary degree from Harvard in 2007, Gates' closing speech [video] at the Techonomy 2010 conference delivered criticism of colleges today.

Gates calls college education "increasingly hard to get" and says that "place-based" traditional college studies will be "five times less important than it is today."

He argues, "The self-motivated learner will be on the web.  And there will be far less place-based [college] things...College -- except for the parties -- needs to be less place based."

Gates said he doesn't predict such broad changes in K-12 education.  He did however single out immersive charter school programs like the Knowledge Is Power Program as best practice examples of how to get kids to learn optimally.  He remarks, "If you want to take intercity fifth grade kids and get them to think 'Hey learning is fun...I do that with other kids.' you need to have at least 80 percent of their waking hours devoted to your thing or otherwise you lose -- and these charter schools do that.

While his vision of the internet replacing a college education seems radical given today's professional atmosphere -- and even Microsoft's own hiring policy -- seems unlikely to come in the near future, it doesn't seem impossible that it could come at some point.  Thus Gates' words may yet prove prophetic -- another bold prediction from a man often ahead of his time.

Then again, Gates did predict the incredibly successful iPad would flop.


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By amanojaku on 8/9/2010 12:02:07 PM , Rating: 4
I remember reading an MSN article on the declining value of a college education a few months ago. It basically said that no college education is worth what it was 40 years ago. A college education was a way to get ahead when the typical person barely made it out of high school. As jobs moved from the manufacturing plant and the farm workers needed new skills that could only be found in a college or university.

But times have changed. Many of the general skills taught back then have moved down to high school and even junior high. And a college degree is no longer a silver bullet when everyone else has one. Kind of like a Microsoft or Novell certification. But the debt left by tuition is very real, and the job market is tighter than ever with employers weeding people out because of things that have nothing to do with education or experience. Your college education could leave you at a disadvantage!

I don't have a degree, and yet I broke six figures at 25 in the middle of the dot-com bust. It took me seven years as I was working at 18, but I did it. And I have no debt. My college-educated peers have barely broken $50K, and in some casaes they owe $100K or more. Your talent, work ethic, and ability to negotiate are more important than a piece of paper that says you paid someone a fee to get it.

More importantly, the workplace has returned to the clique-system, when it really should be a meritocracy. I see people leaving one company for another and bringing their buddies along. People who've been on the job for years get passed up for promotions in favor of the "new" guy, because he's not new since he came in with new boss.

But I doubt the Internet will replace formal education. Sure, I can find nearly everything I need to know on the web, but there's no validation of the information. A text book and a curriculum are at least reviewed by "experts". And college facilities have access to resources that the average person couldn't obtain. You can start a business with nothing (high school kids have made millions through trial and error), but try designing a CPU or glass substrate at home!




By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 12:14:34 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
More importantly, the workplace has returned to the clique-system


This is probably the main reason you need a college degree now days. There are too many clueless managers out there who put a college degree over everything else. They would rather higher someone with a unrelated degree, than someone with several years of experiance.

The cost of college has gone up faster than even health care, yet they keep telling everyone they need a degree.

Most jobs do NOT need a 4 year college degree. A 2 year AA degree, or a trade school certification should be fine for most people, and would cost alot less.


By theArchMichael on 8/9/2010 12:37:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Most jobs do NOT need a 4 year college degree. A 2 year AA degree, or a trade school certification should be fine for most people, and would cost alot less.


I agree with you and the OP on most points but I think it really depends... because most jobs don't NEED a degree. But I definitely think that it is helpful in terms of quality and volume of work.

I work in IT and don't have a degree (I am still in school though) and YES, typically that is a deal breaker for employers, no matter how much experience you have. It sucks for me, but depending on what type of work you're doing in IT, I get why it's like that. Understanding theory and design practices is just as, if not more, important than just knowing languages and having practical experience. For example, if a programmer has a real and substantial understanding for the design choices of the architect, I feel like that programmer's ( or unit tester's) feedback and interaction in the development cycle is more enriching.

I do a lot of reading on my own and for school and I'm surprised at how much I was missing. So, I guess if you're a genius you most likely will learn or develop those skills on your own but for most school is the way to do it.


By dragonbif on 8/9/2010 1:24:03 PM , Rating: 3
I have done a trade school and college and there was a big difference. Most of the people at the trade school who were teaching the classes did not spend much time in the trade out in the world and the ones that did never got into management. To me collage is meant for people who want to be leaders and want get into management, trade schools are for those who just want to work.

Bill did go to college he dropped out but he still did go. Would he have been able to do what he did if he never went in the first place????? All the people that I can think of that make a lot of money as a CEO or owner went to college.

I do not like the idea of people learning from the web. In what way does that help you with your people skills and to work as a team? That and people who think that anything they read on the web is truth are idiots. Some web learners like to read others personal feelings or thoughts and then talk about it like it was law.


By JonnyDough on 8/14/2010 5:03:56 AM , Rating: 2
How does an online college like Phoenix Online help people with teamwork? The fact is, real world experience trumps all. After that, taking an interest in learning and teaching oneself is the next most important. Drudging through college papers and retaining very little of it while paying out the butt does tend to seem a bit silly, especially when you add in that so many are taking classes via a PC. Most jobs today seem to require a PC for automation on an assembly line or for organization/distribution of information...but I think part of the reason that America is falling behind is because we've lost scientific focus. Do you realize how many people go to college for business admin? We can't all manage each other. At some point someone has to do all actual work.


By dgingeri on 8/9/2010 3:17:14 PM , Rating: 3
I've been in IT for 13 years now. I make a good living. I've had 3 years of college, and you know how much if what I learned in college has actually been used? Zero. College has been totally worthless to me. From Physics to Chemistry to Calculus to English Comp, all of it was worthless.

Both colleges I went to had the same issue, as well: an english comp teacher with a liberal agenda who fails students simply because they won't go along with her agenda. I'd spend 20-30 hours on a paper. it would have perfect grammer, spelling, sentence and paragraph structure. I'd get a C or an F over things like "I don't like the way you've structured this argument" or "this is not the way things work". It was never how I wrote, which is what the class was supposed to be about. It was how I believed the world works or should work that caused me to fail the class.

From high school on up I have come to despise English and History teachers for this very thing. I believe my way, and they aren't going to change it. I'll preach against college degrees for this reason alone. If someone gets through college these days, over the last 20 years, it is because they either compromised their ethics to pass the class or have a questionable ethical (liberal) view, and I wouldn't hire either.


By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 4:51:25 PM , Rating: 2
The Liberal PC in colleges has gotten much worse over the last 20 years.

I guess there is some educational value to learning how to hold your opinion and tell your Boss whatever he wants to hear.


By bupkus on 8/9/2010 5:15:02 PM , Rating: 4
Perhaps you should have gone to the dean of the college and voiced your complaint. Sometimes that is needed.

Maybe though, you expressed your beliefs without properly supporting your thesis. It would be sad if you never understood that and simply blamed others for their real or imagined political leanings rather than a poor writing style. Maybe you used the so called liberal to scapegoat your lack of understanding that good writing needs to list sources rather than regurgitate ideology.


By clovell on 8/9/2010 5:28:19 PM , Rating: 4
> If someone gets through college these days, over the last 20 years, it is because they either compromised their ethics to pass the class or have a questionable ethical (liberal) view, and I wouldn't hire either.

So you base hiring decisions on how well someone agrees with your worldview rather than how qualified they are. Fascinating; that makes you no different than the college professors you so despise.


By Donovan on 8/10/2010 12:00:22 PM , Rating: 3
I'm also in IT and have a PhD in Physics, and I most certainly find the latter useful. The math background is tremendously important to me, but what I find most helpful is the basic set of analytical and problem-solving skills. The real hidden benefit of basic science education is learning how to go from a verbal description of a problem to a quantitative solution which can be defended logically. The further you go into the sciences, the more refined your skill set becomes.

Strong English grammar and writing skills are pretty useful as well. It may be amusing to see a user interface or instruction manual written in China, but it's downright tragic when you learn it was actually written by a native English speaker in your own country.

Science helps you decide what to believe, while the arts teach you how to convince others you are right. Logic and rhetoric are never useless, and a better understanding of both can have a profound effect. There isn't anything wrong with politics that a rational electorate can't fix. We often talk about a well-informed electorate, but "what we know" isn't as important as recognizing what our politicians only pretend to know.

I'm sorry you had such bad experiences in college, but you are grossly overgeneralizing if you think we all "sold out" in order to get our degrees.


By Azure Sky on 8/10/2010 2:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
I would say hes over generalizing to a point, It also was likely HOW he stated his case/argument as much as the argument/point of view itself.

in life I have found that HOW you state your point of view/opinion is just as if not more important then the opinion/pov itself.

I also feel that alot of places a formal education tends to be the opposite of what you describe, I am not alone, I have had more then one teacher tell me and others I know that they could tell we hadn't finished our formal education because we could still think for ourselves and think "outside the box"

I have seen this with some people, the more they learn when taking college courses the less they are willing to think for themselves, its hard to re-train somebody whos been brainwashed into thinking that the way they where taught to do something is the only right/proper way to do it.....


By SilthDraeth on 8/11/2010 12:58:46 AM , Rating: 2
I have had the same issue with college. And it was some sort of English class as well, almost every time.

I went to college on three separate occasions, and tried to use my GI bill, but after acing classes that had to do with electrical theory, or math, etc, and failing the liberal arts, or English, I finally threw the towel in. My wife won't let me even do a tech/trade school anymore.

So I spend all my time learning from the internet, or reading books on what subject I am attempting to learn.


By robinthakur on 8/11/2010 7:12:20 AM , Rating: 2
Or perhaps you are using the 'liberal agenda' as a scapegoat, and your arguments were actually poorly formed and articulated. It would not surprise me if your point of view simply came off as rather preachy, obnoxious and slightly small-minded with borderline sociopathic tendencies given your apparent pre-occupation with the political persuasion of your teachers, which shouldn't really matter one iota. The whole point, regardless of ideology when you are taught by somebody is to learn from them, and you fail to have grasped this salient point. We don't just send out kids to school to have their pre-conceived notions re-affirmed but to have their minds opened up to the possibilities out there and their innate ability to think for themselves.

As I see disturbingly often on here, sadly often with Americans, you may disagree with a point of view but blaming all the ills of society and the world on 'liberals' or 'people with questionable or compromised ethics' as you might refer to them is patently absurd and marks you out as somebody 99% of us would prefer to avoid, whether we are Liberal or Conservative. I'm from the UK and am a proud Conservative but find your attitude obnoxious, even just reading it. The fact that you work in my industry (IT) is also faintly depressing.


By afkrotch on 8/9/2010 9:06:20 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I do a lot of reading on my own and for school and I'm surprised at how much I was missing. So, I guess if you're a genius you most likely will learn or develop those skills on your own but for most school is the way to do it.


The thing with going to some classes is, you choose what you want to learn. To get a degree, you are forced into having to take classes that have zero relevance to your career choice. That's the problems I see with the degree system.

IT is wonderful, in the fact they have specific classes and certifications that pertain to the field you're in. If I'm going for a network administrator job, which do you think is more beneficial for the employer? The college grad with a computer science degree or the high school dropout with a Sec+ cert, Net+ cert, MCSA, and CCNP?


By Suntan on 8/9/2010 1:03:19 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
...They would rather higher someone with a unrelated degree...


So we are all straight here, the person advocating that a college degree is not that important is also the person that believes managers "higher" people...

Just saying.

-Suntan


By marvdmartian on 8/9/2010 3:10:30 PM , Rating: 2
Geez! Everyone knows he should have spelled it HAIER !! ;)


By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:09:22 PM , Rating: 2
Since I was busy and didn't have time to proof read my post, I'm glad you had enough free time to correct it.


By Ammohunt on 8/9/2010 3:19:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But I doubt the Internet will replace formal education. Sure, I can find nearly everything I need to know on the web, but there's no validation of the information. A text book and a curriculum are at least reviewed by "experts". And college facilities have access to resources that the average person couldn't obtain.


Bill is correct; what is education but the mastering of information on a specific topic. The end result is the same despite the source of it. I am self taught with a high school diploma I started by reading books on the relevant material and later supplement with internet sources this effort turning into a well paying career frankly what I do for a living can’t be taught in formal education. College facilities with the advent of social media and networking sites are quickly becoming irrelevant. Take open Source Projects as examples of location free collaboration efforts. Tons of work gets done by people spread out all over the world. I can collaborate on education topics just as easily I can join forums with subject matter experts, post questions or present information for peer review. Now all we need is to conquer social myths like college educated is better that Experience based/self learning education. The days of knowledge bankers are numbered


By Lerianis on 8/9/2010 8:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
Most jobs today don't need a degree period, even 'highly technical jobs'. They are more about ON THE JOB LEARNING! Seriously, I have a cousin who was just hired as a network admin with no college by a startup that is run by a former network admin.

He put it simply when he hired my cousin: "A degree doesn't mean squat. Many things that we are going to do they are not going to teach you how to do when you are getting that degree, because they are trade-secrets or not widely known information."

We need to get off this bullhockey that a college degree 'proves that you are intelligent and can do hard work'. It doesn't. Heck, even a high school diploma doesn't prove that.


By YashBudini on 8/11/2010 5:21:53 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
A 2 year AA degree, or a trade school certification should be fine for most people, and would cost alot less.


Milked an AA for decades, but that doesn't work anymore. Now what? More ed? Finishing that up now, but entry level jobs want experience, so entire graduating classes are mostly SOL. Wrong field? Not according to everything and everyone that counts for anything. Again, now what?


By Mogounus on 8/9/2010 12:52:01 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Your talent, work ethic, and ability to negotiate are more important than a piece of paper that says you paid someone a fee to get it.


That piece of paper has a lot more meaning than you give it. It is a document stating that you had what it takes and put in the time and effort to get it. Companies go with gradates because it indicates that they are disciplined enough to attain that degree. It is not necessarily about what you learned (I would say very little of what I learned in college was useful in my career) but about changing the way you think and perform tasks. From my experience that is the most important thing you get from an education and it has been reinforced with my experience in working with people. I've worked with a few non-graduates and from my experience with them they may have known the "techie" stuff but they were lacking in following directions, completing tasks in a structured way and always had a chip on their shoulder. Whenever I tried to give them some input or discuss alternatives to how they were doing it they would get defensive and it was hard to work with them. No problems like that with colleagues who had degrees. Correlation yes, causation no, but so far that has been the trend.


By Hieyeck on 8/9/2010 1:08:36 PM , Rating: 2
100% of what I learned in College was outdated technology by the time I graduated. That being said, IT is a unique field where the person is more important that the paper - you can tell from resumes and interviews who's barely keeping up and who hungers to learn and as much as it irks executives and auditors, most managers in IT do recognize this and try to hire the person instead of the paper. My friend worked at a small hospital running their unix systems solo when he was 14 and got canned after 3 years when the board discovered their IT manager hired someone who wasn't even out of high shcool (this was a dozen years ago, when the outside started looking at IT due to the impedning Y2K).

For most other occupations, the basics remain much the same, even if say... tax laws change, the language and methods don't drastically change, just the numbers you plug into the formula. Degrees do still mean something because of the slow pace of change.


By Tenebrae on 8/12/2010 2:42:22 AM , Rating: 2
Really? The change of pace is fast for computers, eh?

I say BS.

About TWENTY YEARS ago I was learning about threads, interprocess communication, security, database design, etc… And all of that same information is relevant today. I would argue that technology doesn't really change as fast as people think it does. What we have is more "gadgets" and "widgets" and more "implementations" but the fundamentals are the same.

The biggest difference is that the high end keeps becoming more and more accessible to the lower end. For example… I've got a dual processor handheld computer. Had it for a few years now. Once upon a time that would be unthinkable. But is it earth shattering? Nah… Dual processor computers have been around WAAAY before that, they just weren't handheld.

quote:
100% of what I learned in College was outdated technology by the time I graduated.


Then you weren't learning the right things. Everything I learned is still relevant. Heck, alot of what I see in the industry still hasn't caught up with what I saw in academic labs. And it's been TWENTY YEARS.

Seriously... If you're even going to look at specific implementations... Guess what? Old VB and old school C are still in use in numerous places and yes… People are still using low level assembly code too. "Old" stuff is alive and well my friend.

quote:
My friend worked at a small hospital running their unix systems solo when he was 14 and got canned after 3 years when the board discovered their IT manager hired someone who wasn't even out of high shcool


Good for him. I hope he did a good job. I'll assume he did. However... Many self taught people don't know about the mistakes they're making because you don't know what you don't know. School (when done right) is about teaching you what you don't know. Take my predecessor at my current job who is like your friend. He admined this network. He was self taught. And he screwed it all up. That's not my opinion, its fact. He tampered with technology he didn't even begin to understand. Did he raise the dead and create zombies? No. What he did do though was make a highly unstable and unmaintainable setup. When I joined the company, the process he had setup required WEEKS of work to restore from a TRIVIAL backup to a server. With my setup it takes 10 minutes to bring a server backup. Behold the glory of doing things a better way. A way he didn't understand/know about.

Now that isn't to say self-taught people suck. Of course not. There are good and bad self taught people and good and bad people with degrees. The biggest difference is personality types.

FYI… I'm self taught (originally what I was), got work experience, AND a few degrees. I believe each one has contributed good things to my life.


By ianweck on 8/9/2010 1:09:34 PM , Rating: 4
What about military experience then? The military doesn't award diplomas, but I would argue the Navy's Nuclear Power program is as tough or tougher than some college curriculums. Don't discount experience so much. People either have a good head on their shoulders, or they don't. A college degree isn't going to change that.


By Mogounus on 8/9/2010 1:33:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
People either have a good head on their shoulders, or they don't. A college degree isn't going to change that.


You are correct... but by getting a degree you are proving that you have a good head on your shoulders (usually). Why is it that people always say something like that... you can't just buy a degree from a good school and not everyone has what it takes. THAT IS THE POINT.


By afkrotch on 8/9/2010 9:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
The military does award college credits and you can get a degree through them. Community College of the Airforce. Associates in your career field. You can even transfer the 60 hours towards a bachelors.


By knutjb on 8/9/2010 11:57:34 PM , Rating: 2
Sadly that is all it seems to garner with many Colleges and HR types, where's your "real degree from a real school."

I have had job interviews from people who had far less experience than I in the field but thought, because they had the little piece of paper, they were automatically more competent.

The more those who hold paper higher than experience the worse off we'll be. That is not to say education is worthless, it's not, but currently it out weighs practical hands on. Even low ranking officers are placed in hands on learning positions under those they technically out rank for years.

There are some cases the paper means something like engineering, medical, or legal. General management, I have my doubts. Text books and class rooms do not supersede hands on experience. I have both and found some classes teach poor skills and create bad habits. They tend to treat subordinates as inanimate objects or get lost on touchy feely, forgetting the job at hand.

The false belief held by noners about the military is that orders are barked out and the troops just do it. Nothing is further from the truth. People don't perform all that well to those who bark regularly, particularly over time. Barking is a tool that must be used very sparingly, even in the military.

If you understand the personalities and how they interact you can get people to do amazing things, military or civilian. That is something only experience can give and the military is one of the best at it.


By afkrotch on 8/10/2010 9:53:34 PM , Rating: 2
Don't fields like engineering, medical, legal, etc have an internship requirement? I don't know, as I'm not in those fields, but I figured you were required some kind of internship before you were awarded a Masters.

In the military world, the person who can be your friend, but knows when to draw the line between friend and duty, are usually the most competent leaders. I can't follow someone I don't like.


By FITCamaro on 8/9/2010 1:14:12 PM , Rating: 5
Thank you. A college degree does not necessarily mean you know everything. What it does show is commitment. That you are willing to put forth the time and effort. Also that you are capable of learning.

Now does everyone need college? No. But do you want an engineer who just read everything on Wikipedia?


By HotFoot on 8/9/2010 1:21:29 PM , Rating: 2
Re: Wikipedia.

Good point, Fit. An adjudicated degree is at least a sign by some authority that this person aught to be able to sort out what's real or baloney from what's out there.


By Proxes on 8/9/2010 2:07:19 PM , Rating: 3
All a college degree shows is that you can study and pass tests. I can't believe the number of college grads I met in IT that were total fail on the job. Straight A students with no common sense, no ability to learn on the fly or solve problems that weren't in their notes.


By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:13:15 PM , Rating: 2
I'll second that experience.

It also applies to alot of people with MCSE type certifications.


By clovell on 8/9/2010 5:46:50 PM , Rating: 1
My beginning C++ final gave us two hours to write a fairly basic program on paper from scratch. No warning. Just do it. Piece of cake for me.

I've found that it truly depends on the teacher. Unfortunately, as another poster noted, so many folk view education as nothing more than a means to an end. So, they take the easy professors. I remember all the shining stars who finished undergrad the year before me with flawless GPA, who study their asses off for the GRE and made it to some of the top grad schools... Only to wash out in their second semester. Scared the sh!t out of me.

I took the 'demon' profs - even made a D in one class (took Complex Analysis as my first Analysis class - stupid idea). I had a 3.33 and got passed up by a couple of those same schools, but I made it through a good grad school all the same. I consistently sought out the professors who would push me. I suck when I'm bored.


By Tenebrae on 8/12/2010 2:50:19 AM , Rating: 2
Indeed. Many people just want an "easy way out". They see their degree as this and have no intention of even attempting to develop real skills. And to boot they want the easiest path to get to the degree. That said, not all people with degrees are that way.

Also it needs to be noted that people with work experience and are self taught CAN also be the same way. I know more than one person who tries to win arguments by simply stating (for example)
quote:
but I have X years of work experience!
or
quote:
but I taught myself Linux!
My response is always...
quote:
Sorry but that doesn't mean you're right about OpenOffice being a toaster oven.


quote:
I took the 'demon' profs


I hear you there. I went to college to learn something and be tested. Not to party or sit on my ass and just be waved through.


By aston12 on 8/9/2010 5:49:08 PM , Rating: 2
Totally agree. A degree shows that you offered time, dedication, that you can handle some stress level and mostly that you are able to FINISH what you start in the long term.

Most knowledge you learn on the job although a background is usually needed and if that background is from wikipedia or college if it is valid information it does not really matter that much.

The other values a degree show, do.


By robinthakur on 8/11/2010 7:19:55 AM , Rating: 2
Give this man a 6! Human brains soon turn to mush if they aren't adequately stimulated and the learning process is a healthy one, whether its college or an internship or whatever. Always it should be the right person for the job based on their experience and qualifications, and IT is the nearest skilled industry to achieving that in my experience.


By HotFoot on 8/9/2010 1:15:58 PM , Rating: 2
One problem I have with wholly self-taught is that people will tend to learn only the subjects that interest them. I'm an Engineer, and had to go through a program with a rigorous curriculum. Part of that involved studying things I would have never bothered myself with, had I been only self-taught. Actually, for the fields I was most interested in (aerodynamics, vehicle performance), I knew a lot of what was taught in school before I got there. Learning all the other things rounded out my background, and is still valuable to me in a number of ways:

1) Lessons from my non-core interests help me think about problems in different ways - I have less tunnel-vision.
2) I can much more easily understand what the engineers in other fields are talking about, ie. programming and mechanical engineering.
3) More than anything, I learned that no matter how damned smart I might think I am, there's a hell of a lot out there that I just don't know.

So, in one respect, as Mogounus said, the degree shows that you can buckle down, make a long-term commitment, and pass the trial by fire - but also the lessons learned are actually quite useful. And it's not like someone going to university just shuts off the self-taught side of things. University exposes you to so many new ideas, and the inquisitive mind will find a lot to look into on their own.


By jimhsu on 8/9/2010 3:32:28 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, exactly this. Contrary to popular expectation, you don't go to college to learn what you know -- you do that by yourself, or in a job. You go to college to learn what you don't know, and to learn things that you didn't even know that you don't know (anthropology, in my case as a biochem major).

And anyone who claims college doesn't teach practical skills has obviously not taken advanced lab classes. Chemistry in particular... from "what's the best way to transfer chlorine without choking yourself to death" to "dodging explosive glass shrapnel from failed lab experiments".



By afkrotch on 8/9/2010 9:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
Congrats. So how much is your English classes helping you biochemistry?


By clovell on 8/10/2010 11:11:27 AM , Rating: 2
If only you knew just how much of a valuable gem clear & concise communication skills are in the sciences. For the majority of my colleagues, English is not their first language.


By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 6:25:59 PM , Rating: 2
What people don't realize when they are young is that certain courses that you've taken to round out your education often become more important and useful later in life. Like when you want to write a tell all book about the idiot managers at your place of employment.

Being able to sign your name without it looking like it was written by a 3rd grader comes in useful as well, but who the hell teaches calligraphy anymore?


By afkrotch on 8/10/2010 10:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
Clear and concise communications skills are a necessity. Now how much of that is actual proper English? As in textbook English. Probably not much.


By Hiawa23 on 8/9/2010 1:24:29 PM , Rating: 1
I don't get some of the responses that are negative towards a college degree, when it has been proven the more education you have the more likely you are to make more money in life. I have a Business Managagement degree, graduated back in 1997, paid off 1/2 the $20k student loans I had to take to complete it, & run a successful company. Did the degree help me, I have no idea, I am 13 years into my career & wondering myself was it worth it. I will say one thing, the 4.5 years it took me to get the degree was the best years of my life, as the college experience is unmatched, but college aint for everyone. I will say this, you are more likely to be poor or at the bottom spectrum of our society if you don't have some form of higher ed or go to some trade school, so in that regard I think It was worth to me. Most are not going to be Bill Gates, or a singer, or famous athlete or actor, so downplaying an education I think is wrong especially in the African American, or poor Latina communities. If America is going to lift itself out of this debt, & compete with the world, we are going to need to make an education a priority. A good education is about the only way minorites can lift themselves out of poverty, moreso than sports or anything else in my opinion, so I disagree with alot of the posts on this topic. Don't know where I would be without my degree today, but I surely don't think I would be better off not getting it.


By NaughtyGeek on 8/9/2010 3:05:14 PM , Rating: 2
Lack of an educated population is hardly what has driven this country into the debt it's in. Those individuals tasked with running this country pretty much all have a higher education yet continue to spend more money than what is brought in via tax revenue. This alone could be used as a rather strong argument that higher education is counter productive.


By clovell on 8/9/2010 3:40:20 PM , Rating: 2
A rather strong intellectual argument. It doesn't do a damned thing to mitigate the fact that higher-educated folks make more money, regardless of how fair the policies of our government may seem.


By Hiawa23 on 8/9/2010 7:02:07 PM , Rating: 1
Lack of an educated population is hardly what has driven this country into the debt it's in.

I never said it did, but like I said, if America is going to compete with the likes of China, Japan, & other countries, I think Higher education, or education in general has to be more important especially in the poorer communities, as one way to stay poor from generation to generation is to be less educated.


By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:03:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've worked with a few non-graduates and ... always had a chip on their shoulder.


Funny, I usually find it the other way around. The most "clueless" business people I've run into over the years have had fancy degrees, but they could hardly function in the real world.

Bottom line: Some people are good at following directions & memorizing information for tests. Others are good at actually & understanding reality and getting the job done.


By rs1 on 8/9/2010 1:09:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sure, I can find nearly everything I need to know on the web, but there's no validation of the information.


That's kind of in the right ballpark. What the Internet does is make memorization of facts significantly less valuable. Why memorize something when searching for it only takes a second or two and provides perfect recall? In that sense Bill Gates is right. A college curriculum that only requires students to memorize facts is of rapidly diminishing value.

However, facts by themselves are not useful without the conceptual skills and knowledge needed to apply them effectively. And those conceptual skills are much harder to learn from a webpage. While the information needed to build them may be out there, it is organized in a haphazard way for anyone who doesn't already know where to start.

This is where a college curriculum still has value, as courses can be designed by experts who know where a good starting place is and how to build a solid conceptual understanding of the topic being discussed. It's not that you can't replicate that on your own if you try hard enough, but a well-designed curriculum is always going to be more accessible when dealing with a subject that requires a significant amount of abstraction.

So I think there are still plenty of places where a college education can provide good value. But any course that focuses purely or primarily on memorization of facts is not one of them. Instead the focus needs to be more on teaching people the skills and the fundamental concepts that they need to know in order to use those facts effectively.


By clovell on 8/9/2010 3:54:16 PM , Rating: 1
I had typed this up earlier, but it has a lot of personal details so I left it out. Thought I'd put it out there now. This isn't a black or white type of thing; I've seen it work firsthand both ways.

I have an master's degree. I broke 6 figures at 26, after just less than 3 years in the professional workforce. I also racked up a little over half my current annual salary in student loan debt while in school. Not because it was expensive, but my dumb ass got married at 19, had a surprise baby at 20, agreed to let my (now) ex-wife not work at all, and took out loans to make up for the loss of her salary.

My lil bro got his g/f (now wife) knocked up in his freshman year of college and has been 'going back to school' off-and-on for about 5 years now. He has no degree and first cleared 6 figures when he was 21 by working in car sales & financing. He's a natural.

We both have it good. Hard to say who has it better, and that's not really the point. Point is that we both have had to continuously bust our ass and push ourselves past our limits to get where we are. There's not much more to the story other than that.


By gorehound on 8/9/2010 4:37:15 PM , Rating: 2
And I was thrown out of High School a few weeks before graduation for selling Acid back in 1974.Yet I went and learned on my own what I loved.Audio recording and later on Video Editing and film Editing.I don't make a ton of money but I did teach myself a few technical trades.I have my own freelance company.Gore Productions.I never had any school debt at least.


By Nik00117 on 8/10/2010 11:50:21 AM , Rating: 1
I'm 21 yrs old with a successful career, in 2 yrs my friends will be getting out of college, in 2 yrs I'll be even more successful. When my college friends start in the job Market I'll be their managers, managers.

How did I do this? I worked my fucking ass that's how. Don't give me this BS that you need a degree to get ahead in life, you don't not if you got find something your passionate about, something your dedicated too.


Is This Fair?
By clovell on 8/9/2010 11:57:29 AM , Rating: 2
Wish I could watch the vid, but I'm at work. This doesn't seem like something Bill Gates would say, though, Jason. The man pours millions into charities for education.

I can imagine his point, though - our economy is being saturated with college grads. More people have a for year degree than ever. It's no longer a distinguishing characteristic. Now, I know a lot of places where going to a certain university puts you at the front of the line because the hiring manager went to the same university - but.

At the end of the day, it's a lot more than education that sets a worker apart. Self-starters are preferable to the highly-educated in many industries.




RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 12:02:26 PM , Rating: 2
Plus on the flip side we would have less idiots being pumped out of Liberal Indoctrination Camps; aka College.

Hmmm maybe Gates is onto something after all. Sounds like a good side-effect to me.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Mitch101 on 8/9/2010 12:26:52 PM , Rating: 2
Any training facility/college is about money. Its a business first and foremost even if a large percentage of the graduating class is sub par for the field.

Idiots are in every line of work there is no avoiding them. The more you try to make something idiot proof the world develops a better idiot.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 1:09:00 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Bullshit.


This reads more like "I don't like the truth" than an actual denial to me. Care to prove me wrong?

Come on, let's face it. Colleges crank out Liberal idiots by the truckload these days. The bias of college professors, who directly influence students, is so documented I'm genuinely amused you're even trying to cast doubt on it.


RE: Is This Fair?
By raumkrieger on 8/9/2010 1:24:12 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Colleges crank out Liberal idiots by the truckload these days.

Only in the useless Liberal Arts majors. Real majors like engineering or the sciences or even math produce intelligent people.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 1:29:51 PM , Rating: 2
Well there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. You can still be an idiot yet be quite intelligent. Don't get me wrong.


RE: Is This Fair?
By FITCamaro on 8/9/2010 4:42:38 PM , Rating: 2
Yes because those in the science departments don't try to convince kids of man-made global warming?

Law professors don't try to indoctrinate kids into thinking the constitution is "living and breathing"? Assuming they even mention it anymore.

Please I was in computer engineering and computer science and half the teachers were libs.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Is This Fair?
By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:20:45 PM , Rating: 2
Only half? that's better than usual, even for a computer science department.

Try any of the liberal arts, political science or teaching departments and it'll usually be 90% or more liberal.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 6:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Law professors don't try to indoctrinate kids into thinking the constitution is "living and breathing"? Assuming they even mention it anymore.

Oh FFS, quit it with the stereotyped conservative talking points. The very fact that a system exists by which to amend the constitution, a system which has been used numerous times in the past, dictates that it is not a permanent, unalterable document.

quote:
Please I was in computer engineering and computer science and half the teachers were libs.

And you came to this completely unverifiable conclusion how exactly? I majored in electrical engineering, minored in math, and I couldn't tell you what any of my professor's political leanings were because it had not one thing to do with any of the material I was there to learn and never came up as a topic of discussion.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 7:24:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The very fact that a system exists by which to amend the constitution, a system which has been used numerous times in the past, dictates that it is not a permanent, unalterable document.


When exactly was the Amendment process actually used last? I couldn't recall, and I doubt you can too. Probably not this century OR last.

Fact is these days politicians just plow on as if it doesn't exist. The Constitution doesn't get "changed", it just gets IGNORED.

Conservative "talking points" don't include the Constitution never being amended. The Constitution, as you pointed out, already comes built in with a way to do that. What get's us Conservatives "talking points" is how nobody even bothers to amend the Constitution, it's just completely circumvented with no discussion or debate.

quote:
And you came to this completely unverifiable conclusion how exactly? I majored in electrical engineering, minored in math, and I couldn't tell you what any of my professor's political leanings were because it had not one thing to do with any of the material I was there to learn and never came up as a topic of discussion.


Well where did you go to school? Nobody ever said ALL COLLEGES, you know.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 7:45:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
When exactly was the Amendment process actually used last? I couldn't recall, and I doubt you can too. Probably not this century OR last.

ZOMG. I think I just died from shock. By your record alcohol was neither outlawed nor re-legalized last century? Those are two amendments (18th and 21st) that EVERYONE, every single person in this country, should know about offhand. How about female suffrage, an even more important amendment? Or limiting presidents to 2 terms? None of those happened in recent history?

Now by 'this century or last' do you mean between 1810 and now or 1900 and now? Because depending on your response to that, the answer is either 15 or 12.

Congratulations on discrediting yourself.

quote:
Well where did you go to school? Nobody ever said ALL COLLEGES, you know.

Oh the irony. The whole point I was making with that statement is that the unverifiable claims in this discussion are utterly worthless. But apparently you think that your unverifiable claims and FIT's unverifiable claims have more value than my unverifiable claims. Most interesting...

And actually, you said:
quote:
Liberal Indoctrination Camps; aka College.

You said they are synonymous. Therefore you yourself said all colleges. Perhaps if you're going to nitpick you should choose your own words a bit more carefully.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 6:17:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
quit it with the stereotyped conservative talking points.

But then what would they have to say?

And think about it, when you pass a herd of sheep on a country road, is only one going "bah" or are all of them? Perhaps you are asking for too much.
quote:
Perhaps if you're going to nitpick you should choose your own words a bit more carefully.

Hannity and Beck, don't why should he?


RE: Is This Fair?
By Quadrillity on 8/9/2010 1:39:35 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Come on, let's face it. Colleges crank out Liberal idiots by the truckload these days. The bias of college professors, who directly influence students, is so documented


I fully agree with that. Some of them are objective, but it is VERY FEW. I have even had "guest professors" come and lecture us on not eating beef because we are causing global warming... yes... I was pissed off to have paid tuition for that.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 2:25:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I have even had "guest professors" come and lecture us on not eating beef because we are causing global warming


Man.. it's gotten THAT bad huh? That's so despicable! "Higher learning" indeed! That has nothing to do with educating, and everything to do with indoctrinating.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Quadrillity on 8/9/2010 3:11:52 PM , Rating: 2
The guest professor also left absolutely no time for a discussion/question session either. With 1 minute left in class he announced, "If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to see me after class" Haha!


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 6:38:55 PM , Rating: 1
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that your comments in past discussions have proven that you have negative credibility; not only can things you say not be believed, but they are most assuredly incorrect.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 7:38:44 PM , Rating: 2
Nice ad hominum. Attack the person, ignore the statements.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 7:51:58 PM , Rating: 2
It wasn't even an attack. It was a statement of fact. Quadrility has proven in past discussions that he is not a credible source of information. If he is genuine in his expressed beliefs then he is willfully ignorant or if he is trolling then he is simply incompetent given the inconsistencies in his arguments.

There is no need to comment on his anecdotal statements because there is no substance there to discuss. I am merely doing a service to newer members here by pointing this out, lest they take anything he posts seriously.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 8:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Quadrility has proven in past discussions that he is not a credible source of information.


If this topic was Creationism, I would agree. But it's not. And I'm not going to go along with smearing someone based on his beliefs in one area.

As far as you doing "services" for new members, why don't we assume they can form their own opinions, huh?


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/12/2010 9:13:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I'm not going to go along with smearing someone based on his beliefs in one area.

Yeah, because you've never done that before...

And actually, I don't care about his beliefs. He can believe whatever he wants. It's his dismissal of facts and his inability to construct logically-sound arguments that irk me. Those traits are not limited to any one belief; they affect all topics of discourse.

quote:
As far as you doing "services" for new members, why don't we assume they can form their own opinions, huh?

I never assumed otherwise. But without knowing any background on the user in question, they may just accept what he has said as true. By calling him out, users who have seen my post might now go look a little more before taking his posts or mine at face value. Keep in mind that by doing this I have also called my own credibility into question.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Quadrillity on 8/9/2010 9:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
LoL. Let me break this down for you.
quote:
It wasn't even an attack. It was a statement of fact.
Actually, this is you passing off your opinion as fact. :)
quote:
Quadrility has proven in past discussions that he is not a credible source of information.

Your opinion.
quote:
If he is genuine in his expressed beliefs then he is willfully ignorant or if he is trolling then he is simply incompetent given the inconsistencies in his arguments.

So... You don't agree with me so you are going to: 1. call me ignorant 2. call me a troll 3. call me inconsistent without offering any evidence on the contrary
quote:
There is no need to comment on his anecdotal statements because there is no substance there to discuss.

So you are just here to insult me and offer nothing productive to the current conversation? thanks buddie! :D
quote:
I am merely doing a service to newer members here by pointing this out, lest they take anything he posts seriously.

This one is the biggest kicker;

Attention all newbies: Don't think for yourselves, listen to HUBBS! He has all the answers! You shouldn't have your independent opinion, you should only carry on like drones.

It looks like YOU are the one here trolling. Manners are hard to come by nowadays.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/12/2010 8:55:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, this is you passing off your opinion as fact. :)
Your opinion.

You have in fact proven in past discussions that you are not a credible source on those topics. I have made the reasonable extension that you are probably also not credible on this topic given that you seem to have no interest in checking your facts. You know that colloquial saying "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"? Well, I wasn't really fooled the first time, but I certainly won't be fooled now. What reason do I or anyone have to believe your claims on this topic?

quote:
So... You don't agree with me so you are going to: 1. call me ignorant 2. call me a troll 3. call me inconsistent without offering any evidence on the contrary

First of all, I said you are either willfully ignorant or a troll, not both. Secondly, you offered no evidence in your original claim, and what can be asserted without evidence can be denied without evidence.

quote:
So you are just here to insult me and offer nothing productive to the current conversation? thanks buddie!

Given that the current conversation was worthless from the start, there is nothing useful that can be added. And I didn't insult you.

quote:
This one is the biggest kicker; Attention all newbies: Don't think for yourselves, listen to HUBBS! He has all the answers! You shouldn't have your independent opinion, you should only carry on like drones.

Have you never heard of Google? Anyone reading this who sees my warning can now search your name, find past posts by you, and decide for themselves whether or not you are credible. Had I said nothing they may have never thought to look. And I guess you haven't read many of my posts, in this article or any other, because I have never claimed to have all the answers. I just exercise a zero tolerance policy towards individuals who seem to think that they do.

quote:
It looks like YOU are the one here trolling. Manners are hard to come by nowadays.

Actually, I've been very polite about this. I didn't call names, I didn't curse, and I didn't express any ill will. What I did was call into question your reputation as defined by past postings. If you are insulted by that, then perhaps you feel that there is some truth in what I have said. Otherwise, you would merely feel confident that people will search for your old posts and conclude that I am wrong.


RE: Is This Fair?
By knutjb on 8/10/2010 12:18:30 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that your comments in past discussions have proven that you have negative credibility; not only can things you say not be believed, but they are most assuredly incorrect.
Uh, I beg to differ. I have had Math books with pro Climate Change stances built into the problems, English books with Social Justice and Environmental theology painted all through them. My Sociology books were so lopsided with a far left agenda even my very left professor wouldn't support many of the implied positions buried within the text. He just used them for sake of argument when someone, usually me, would counter the claim.

So I don't find it all that hard to believe that an instructor would demonized meat and not allow time for a retort. Any argument provided in a one-sided manner is far from educational but rather indoctrinational.


RE: Is This Fair?
By clovell on 8/9/2010 4:08:15 PM , Rating: 1
eh, in some sense. In others, I think it's good to be intellectually challenged on regular occasion.

There's a difference, though, between challenging and indoctrination - though I don't know how much we can bandy about the word 'indoctrination' when we're dealing with grown adults in a free society.

I saw my share of liberal whackjobs. I also remember my libertarian math professor that took me to task on gay marriage one day while we were shooting the shit. That was actually an interesting conversation.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 5:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
It was also interesting to be told that I will have to compete in a global workplace by an economics professor, with tenure.

What's wrong with this picture?

He didn't appreciate it much when I said lower wages was one thing, but loss of basic hygiene was another.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Is This Fair?
By Exodite on 8/9/2010 4:26:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Colleges crank out Liberal idiots by the truckload these days.

Oh yes, the evil liberals. They'll end the world, they will! *rolleyes*

lib·er·al [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl]

–adjective
1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. (often initial capital letter ) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.

–noun
14. a person of liberal principles or views, esp. in politics or religion.
15. ( often initial capital letter ) a member of a liberal party in politics, esp. of the Liberal party in Great Britain.

Luckily us liberals, contrary to our antagonists, fully support the right of others to have a different viewpoint and voice it. Especially if they voice it, as that actually ends up indirectly supporting liberal viewpoints more often than not.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 4:43:13 PM , Rating: 1
Well all political and religious extremists are always bad news for society in general. Islamic extremists in that sense are no worse than any other extremist groups.

Now what could we use to identify extremists? How about:

quote:
Colleges crank out Liberal idiots by the truckload these days.


What's really scary about the ones in this country is that many are 2-fers, political and religious extremists.


RE: Is This Fair?
By FITCamaro on 8/9/2010 4:48:55 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah because Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are just perfect examples of people who love hearing the viewpoints of people who disagree with them. People who advocate for the "Fairness Doctrine" which has the purpose of shutting down conservative talk radio since liberal radio talk shows mostly fail unless they're subsidized like those on NPR.

Who are you trying to convince? Also, where did you get that definition? Wikipedia?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberal

Love the "obsolete" definition.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 7:29:28 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Also, where did you get that definition? Wikipedia?

Fail.

Your own link contains a synopsis of his longer definition:
quote:
lib·er·al
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives


Note that it uses but does not define 'liberalism', so if you look up the definition of that, again from Merriam-Webster:
quote:
lib·er·al·ism
c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class) d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 7:33:11 PM , Rating: 1
Are you suggesting he was a little conservative with the facts?


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 7:45:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
lib·er·al·ism c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically : such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class) d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party


Well if that's the definitional of Liberalism, all I can say is the apple has fallen quite far from the tree. The part I put in the bold appears to be the only thing that still applies to today's Liberal.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:36:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Luckily us liberals, contrary to our antagonists, fully support the right of others to have a different viewpoint and voice it.


I'd sure like to meet a Liberal that actually believes that.

Liberals now days are mostly about imposing their views on others. Anyone who disagrees is automatically dismissed and accused of being a bigot, intolerant, etc.

Who is it that wants to force us to buy health care, wear seatbelts & motor cycle helmets, ban paper/plastic bags at the store, force us into small cars, etc.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Exodite on 8/9/2010 7:37:29 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Liberals now days are mostly about imposing their views on others.

Newsflash: Every political, religious or economical doctrine is about imposing their viewpoint on others.

All I'm saying is that actual liberals don't want to forbid others having, or sharing, differing opinions. That doesn't mean we're in agreement with those views.

People are generally stupid after all.
quote:
Who is it that wants to force us to buy health care, wear seatbelts & motor cycle helmets, ban paper/plastic bags at the store, force us into small cars, etc.

That's not really a liberal agenda though, it's merely good sense and enforced accountability. As in the society protecting itself.

A true liberal agenda dictates that every person has the right to think, speak and act according to their own views as long as those freedoms doesn't impose on those of any other person.

As in it's alright to be a fascist or a neo-nazi but it's not alright to forcefully impose your will on others or preach race hatred.

Also, it's alright to disagree with another person's belief and consider that person all kinds of stupid but it's not alright to prevent or prohibit that person from having such a belief.

Anyway it's hilarious to note how people are trying, and failing, to make the word 'liberal' a bad thing while others are calling themselves 'conservative' with a straight face.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 7:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyway it's hilarious to note how people are trying, and failing, to make the word 'liberal' a bad thing while others are calling themselves 'conservative' with a straight face.


I think it hilarious how you people are trying, and failing, to lie about what Liberalism is.

Either that or you refuse to see how your belief has been hijacked and perverted by the more mainstream extremist of your group.


RE: Is This Fair?
By knutjb on 8/10/2010 1:13:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Luckily us liberals, contrary to our antagonists, fully support the right of others to have a different viewpoint and voice it. Especially if they voice it, as that actually ends up indirectly supporting liberal viewpoints more often than not.
First off you're wrong, Ted Olsen is the Lawyer who successfully argued against California's Prop 8. If you don't recognize that liberal name he is very conservative and was Bush's first Solicitor General. He took the case because of his conservative beliefs.
quote:
Newsflash: Every political, religious or economical doctrine is about imposing their viewpoint on others.
If you would take some time to read the Constitution and all related documents you would find that it is the opposite to what you proclaim. It's all about what the Government CANNOT DO to you. Leaving you to do what works for you. Capitalism minus over-regulation, but not laisez-faire either, allows one to choose what's best for them. Liberalism, along with Socialism, Communism, Marxism, and Fascism dictate and limit what you CAN DO. And don't get on the "greed" line, greed is about a selfish and excessive desire that is more about power and control than money. Money can buy power from those who are just as greedy. Greed is not a Capitalist ideal, it's an irrational human behavior.
quote:
Anyway it's hilarious to note how people are trying, and failing, to make the word 'liberal' a bad thing while others are calling themselves 'conservative' with a straight face.
At the beginning of the twentieth century Liberals and Progressives were the primary groups behind Eugenics, Big Government, limiting what one can do through nanny state laws, the Federal Income Tax, and so on. No, Conservatives aren't always right but real Conservatives don't want more government to tell you how to live. They want you to decide what works for you within the modest and limited constraints of a free society so you can create.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Quadrillity on 8/9/2010 10:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
I agree completely. What you said there is fact, and it's sad that you will be flat out hated for it. You're not alone though, there are some sane people still left (but in diminishing numbers lol).


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 6:25:13 PM , Rating: 2
Given that you haven't proven anything yourself, I don't really see how I need to prove you wrong. You made an assertion, I called BS. Feel free to prove your assertion.

Colleges crank out idiots by the truckloads, I won't argue with that. But saying that college = liberal indoctrination, as you did, only proves that you are one such idiot.

The reason so many idiots come out of colleges is because so many idiots go into colleges. More and more people are going to college these days, so more and more of them are coming out. If you were right, and college grads were overwhelmingly liberal, then we would have a rapidly growing number of liberals in this country. However, if you look at the popular vote stats from the last several elections you would see the country is still split basically 50/50.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Quadrillity on 8/9/2010 9:59:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you were right, and college grads were overwhelmingly liberal, then we would have a rapidly growing number of liberals in this country.

Did you flat out miss the last presidential election?! There was a MASSIVE increase in the liberal influence. Mainly because of people voting for Obama just because he is considered a "black" man.

Lets take a look at one fact for a minute: The liberal media was very successful at downplaying Sara Palin's intelligence and also the fact that McCain is old. Palin wasn't always the brightest crayon in the box, but she runs CIRCLES around that idiot VP we have now. She would have been a good VP, end of story.

McCain was literally being made fun of for being old. Is that not a prejudice? I think so. Again, he wasn't my best guess at who would have been the best man for the job in this era, but he would have done a lot better than Obama.

Every side has it's extremes, but you don't see any true conservative going around telling other people that they know what's best for them. Modern liberal are pompous arrogant know-it-alls that love to tell people how intelligent and great they are. Conservatives, for the most part, are God fearing people that know people have flaws, and the best way to live our lives is to admit flaws, and try to correct the worst ones while working around the small things.

Liberals believe in a utopian society that simply will never exist , and they dedicate their lives demanding that people bow down to their ideas of achieving those impossible goals. Sometimes they have the best intentions in the world, but good intentions don't automatically translate to practicality.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Nutzo on 8/10/2010 12:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
Very true.

I'd also add that Liberals tend to look at intent, whereas Conservatives look at results.

As a Conservative I see failed government programs such as the failed inner city schools. I see solutions that have worked (when they have been tried) such as vouchers and charter schools, yet the Liberals fight to stop these programs & simply demand more money to fix the problem.

Liberal: Someone who is generous with other peoples money.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/12/2010 9:54:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did you flat out miss the last presidential election?! There was a MASSIVE increase in the liberal influence. Mainly because of people voting for Obama just because he is considered a "black" man.

The popular vote was still 53% to 46%. That's a 7% difference. That is not massive. Clinton had a larger popular vote advantage than that in '96. If you want massive, look at Reagan's 18% lead in popular vote in '84.

quote:
Lets take a look at one fact for a minute: The liberal media was very successful at downplaying Sara Palin's intelligence and also the fact that McCain is old. Palin wasn't always the brightest crayon in the box, but she runs CIRCLES around that idiot VP we have now.

Sarah Palin is nothing short of laughable as a candidate. The liberal media didn't need to smear her, because anyone who watched her interviews couldn't help but draw parallels to Miss Teen South Carolina. It really was that bad. She is a complete airhead and should not be in a position of control. I've never been a Bush basher, but honestly, she makes Bush look like an intellectual, and that says a lot. Biden absolutely is more intelligent than her. Even without agreeing with many of his policies that much is still obvious.

quote:
She would have been a good VP, end of story.

This is an inherently unknowable claim. Purely speculation, and certainly not 'end of story.'

quote:
McCain was literally being made fun of for being old. Is that not a prejudice? I think so.

I agree to an extent. However, his age would have been largely irrelevant had he not picked a better running mate.

quote:
Again, he wasn't my best guess at who would have been the best man for the job in this era, but he would have done a lot better than Obama.

Again, inherently unknowable by simple fact that it didn't happen. Personally I think all the candidates sucked. They all talk about changing things one way or the other, but all that any of them give is more of the same. Obama hasn't delivered on really anything that he promised, and I doubt if McCain would have either. None of these clowns ever do.

quote:
Every side has it's extremes, but you don't see any true conservative going around telling other people that they know what's best for them. Modern liberal are pompous arrogant know-it-alls that love to tell people how intelligent and great they are. Conservatives, for the most part, are God fearing people that know people have flaws, and the best way to live our lives is to admit flaws, and try to correct the worst ones while working around the small things.

Oh no, I think my irony alarm just exploded.
The religious right has never done anything to impose it's will on anyone else. I mean, come on, having same-sex marriage be illegal isn't an imposition of beliefs. Neither is the illegality of marijuana. And it's not arrogant or conceited at all to broadly paint the opposing side as "pompous arrogant know-it-alls."
/sarcasm

quote:
Liberals believe in a utopian society that simply will never exist , and they dedicate their lives demanding that people bow down to their ideas of achieving those impossible goals. Sometimes they have the best intentions in the world, but good intentions don't automatically translate to practicality.

Look, I'm not saying that there aren't authoritarian liberals in this country who want their way at all costs, but not all liberals are like that. And don't forget that conservatives have an equal number of authoritarians in their ranks.


RE: Is This Fair?
By YashBudini on 8/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Is This Fair?
By EricMartello on 8/9/2010 5:21:30 PM , Rating: 3
So true...here's a simple fact:

Eduction DOES NOT equal intelligence and you are NOT smart simply because you are educated.

The average college grad is an inexperienced moron that has been overexposed to liberal propaganda and has many misconceptions about how things REALLY work. I think it is a complete load of shit that society has deemed it OK to call someone in their 20s a kid. How many times do you hear people say "college kids". If you're 20 or older YOU ARE NOT A KID ANYMORE. You are a fully grown adult and you should realize that...but I think college is keeping the mental development back by about 10 years on average by prolonging the coddled and filtered environment that is academia.

Education tends to breed elitism whereas true knowledge and wisdom breeds respect. When someone is good at what they do, be it programming or plumbing, you will SEE that result in the work they produce. They don't need a paper from a college to prove anything when their skill and talent is self-evident. The benefit of getting a college degree is for lemmings whose only aspiration in life is to be a worker drone.

If you want to do something for yourself and you are motivated, you can learn what you need to know from experience and by networking with other people...sounds a lot like the old days where skills and crafts were taught by master -> apprentice in a real setting, not a classroom.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/9/2010 7:11:12 PM , Rating: 1
...and it's evident that you either didn't go to college or didn't get anything out of it.

quote:
Eduction DOES NOT equal intelligence and you are NOT smart simply because you are educated.

Eduction...right. Education does not equal intelligence; that much is true. Intelligence is the capacity to learn, and education is the act of learning. Someone who has learned is evidently smart to some degree given that they possessed the capacity to learn.

I think what you meant to say here is that education is not a substitute for experience. That is a statement with which I have no quarrel whatsoever.

quote:
Education tends to breed elitism whereas true knowledge and wisdom breeds respect.

I hate to say this, but you appear not to understand what 'education' is...

ed·u·ca·tion
–noun
the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education does not breed elitism. People who are already elitist and self-important aren't likely to change, and people who are reasonable and modest don't become elitist just because they are educated. I can say, however, that we get pretty fed up with uneducated individuals arguing about things they know absolutely nothing about. Calling out ignorance of this type does not constitute elitism.

Wisdom comes from experience. You may say it breeds respect, but say that it merely is what it is. An inexperienced person is just as capable of showing respect and a wise person. But a wise person will be able to tell where and when respect is warranted, whereas an ignorant person may not. Education and wisdom are not mutually exclusive; ideally a person should have both.

quote:
They don't need a paper from a college to prove anything when their skill and talent is self-evident. The benefit of getting a college degree is for lemmings whose only aspiration in life is to be a worker drone.

You can't demonstrate skill in something that you don't know yet. College is where you go to learn things that you cannot in all practicality learn in everyday life. College is not for 'lemmings,' it is for people who want to do a job that not everyone is actually capable of doing. And if you think that you are anything more than a worker drone in any job, let alone one that requires a college education, then you truly lack the wisdom that you so passionately preach about.

quote:
If you want to do something for yourself and you are motivated, you can learn what you need to know from experience and by networking with other people

That depends entirely on your trade. I can tell you for a fact that you aren't going to walk into an engineering job without any background in calculus or physics and just pick it up, because no employer is going to spend the time teaching you such basic things. THAT is what college is for. You go learn the fundamentals on your own dime and prove that you possess some thought capacity and diligence. Once you've proven that, then an employer will train you to apply that knowledge in a practical setting.


RE: Is This Fair?
By EricMartello on 8/9/2010 8:42:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
...and it's evident that you either didn't go to college or didn't get anything out of it.


It's evident that you're a moron.

quote:
Eduction...right. Education does not equal intelligence; that much is true. Intelligence is the capacity to learn, and education is the act of learning. Someone who has learned is evidently smart to some degree given that they possessed the capacity to learn.


Learning is the act of learning, douchebag. Education term used to describe the knowledge that has been taught or otherwise shared with you.

quote:
I hate to say this, but you appear not to understand what 'education' is...


Wait, didn't you just say education is the act of learning? YES, you did, but then you go and copy-n-paste some definition you googled...is that what you learned in school? How to downplay your overall lack of intelligence, skill or talent by relying on wiki/google.

quote:
Education does not breed elitism.


Yes it does. Any time you have an otherwise stupid person believing they are smart because they went to school, you tend to end up with an elitist mentality.

quote:
You can't demonstrate skill in something that you don't know yet. College is where you go to learn things that you cannot in all practicality learn in everyday life. College is not for 'lemmings,' it is for people who want to do a job that not everyone is actually capable of doing. And if you think that you are anything more than a worker drone in any job, let alone one that requires a college education, then you truly lack the wisdom that you so passionately preach about.


ANYTHING you can learn in college is possible to learn on your own. In fact, it's generally better to learn on your own rather than having shit filtered and spoonfed to you by a professor who cannot resist the urge to "color" what they teach based on their own bias.

You are a worker drone. I can tell, because you're incapable of basic reading comprehension nor are you able to follow contextual hints. For the relative handful of people that are not worker drones, THEY ARE NOT WORKING for a company. They're most likely earning a living doing something they enjoy or feel passionate about.

quote:
That depends entirely on your trade. I can tell you for a fact that you aren't going to walk into an engineering job without any background in calculus or physics and just pick it up, because no employer is going to spend the time teaching you such basic things. THAT is what college is for. You go learn the fundamentals on your own dime and prove that you possess some thought capacity and diligence. Once you've proven that, then an employer will train you to apply that knowledge in a practical setting.


A specialized profession like engineering is a bit different from a typical office job that most people out of college end up with...and there is really no specialized knowledge required for being an office drone.

Most people who want to pursue a career in engineering have already been tinkering with things their whole lives...and while attending college is certainly the easier route if you want to get a job in that field, it is not required. Look at all the hackers that routinely crack software that is "engineered" by PhDs, meanwhile these hackers are usually basement-dwellers that do that kind of stuff for fun.

You're obviously suffering from buyers' remorse or the realization that your degree is worth little more then the paper it's printed on. The ROI on a degree is horrendous...so from a business perspective it is a terrible way to blow $40K & 4 years plus.


RE: Is This Fair?
By knutjb on 8/10/2010 1:30:26 AM , Rating: 2
Bravo.

Like anything, education, and the system of, is just a tool in the box that can be misused.

I think that is what Gates was implying, the current public education system is terribly flawed. Those flaws stifle creativity and individualism in their pursuit of consensus and commonality, counter to who Gates is.


RE: Is This Fair?
By Tenebrae on 8/12/2010 3:36:58 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
ANYTHING you can learn in college is possible to learn on your own.


True.

quote:
In fact, it's generally better to learn on your own rather than having shit filtered and spoonfed to you by a professor who cannot resist the urge to "color" what they teach based on their own bias.


True and false. Yes when you learn something from someone else they can color your experience, but when you learn something for yourself you can also color your experience. When you learn from someone else, if they are teaching you properly, you are learning from some of their life experience as well, this is going to take a very long time to replicate in your own life. However... It is harder to capture the spirit of the lesson when it is taught to you by someone else.

quote:
Yes it does. Any time you have an otherwise stupid person believing they are smart because they went to school, you tend to end up with an elitist mentality.


Wow. Got no experience in life, eh? I know of people who like to end arguments with I have X number of years of work experience. or I taught myself Linux . Whoopie. People are always looking for quick ways to trivially put other people down and prove themselves right without any real effort. They don't need degrees to do it. That's just one among many weapons they can use. That's like blaming murder on guns, when people can just as easily use knives or other objects.

quote:
You're obviously suffering from buyers' remorse or the realization that your degree is worth little more then the paper it's printed on. The ROI on a degree is horrendous...so from a business perspective it is a terrible way to blow $40K & 4 years plus.


Dude, a degree/education is a product. Like a house or a car. Yes, some people don't need them. Yes, they're expensive, but there's a lot of ways to go about getting them that are perfectly legal. Yes, some companies are complete scams. But that doesn't mean colleges and degrees are complete crap.

People should only pursue them if they
1) actually know why they're getting it and what they're getting it for.
2) willing to do the work (many of us don't want more losers in the system ruining our reputations and slowing the system down)
3) figure out the right degree for what you want (obviously)
4) figure out the right university/college/technical school/whatever.
5) figure out an easy way to afford it. (Easy being a relative term)
6) make sure you're fully prepared when you go.

The biggest problem with higher-education is that people don't generally do these things. If you do a good job of taking care of these things you'll get a good ROI one way or another. If you don't you'll get a miserable ROI.

It's like… Buying a house… Do you do pay top dollar for a big mansion with a bad foundation a million miles away from work when you really need/want a condo nearby? Hell no. But people do this with education and then they're shocked… Simply shocked… When golly gee… That mansion is expensive and its not working for them. Duh.

Also its important to keep in mind personality types. Self taught people possess one type of personality and students possess another. There is no right or wrong despite what people say. It's more like earth, fire, water, air. Each has its own nature, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Which causes a certain amount of difficulty since people frequently won't see eye-to-eye.

quote:
and while attending college is certainly the easier route if you want to get a job in that field, it is not required.


If you go to a real university to get a real degree, they will put you through hell and back. Part of the purpose of the university is to TEST you. And if you're at a real one in a real degree program, they will do their best to do exactly that. No wuss can survive such programs.

Now... That said... A number of degree programs have been diluted to allow the people who feel entitled to a degree (be they people who learned stuff at work to self taught people who think they should never be questioned to losers who never learned anything in their lives) to pass through. However, even in those places, the real program frequently still exists if you are willing to look for it. Many people don't look though because they don't have what it takes.

And yes yes if you happened to teach yourself REALLY well or had a good tutor before hand you can also avoid some of the difficulty. I know that helped me. (I was originally self taught, got work experience, and then went to a good university)

quote:
worker drone


I decided to quote this separately because its complete crap. At a real university in a real degree program you WILL FAIL if you are a worker drone. I know because I knew a number of kids who were very very very bright when they were younger, their PITA parents turned them into worker drones because they wanted someone to work on their house/yard/etc. Then they wanted them to bring pride to the family and sent them off to college. Despite their brilliance, despite their devotion, despite their family backing, despite everything, they came back broken. All of them.

During the real trials you will be tested by fire at some point and need to be able to think independently without direction. If you can't do that they'll break you and send you home.

Also… Back to your original point… The purpose of universities/colleges/technical schools is to provide a formalized master apprentice setup and provide labs. You will also get opportunities to work on real projects as well as tinker with technologies that are either not in use yet or are not widely deployed yet. Those huge classes filled with lemmings that you're apparently thinking of are meant to bring in all the people who haven't proved themselves yet. Once you have proved yourself and are truly in the system, there is plenty of one-on-one with both students who are ahead of you and professors. The large classes slowly evaporate and disappear completely if you do well.

The lemmings who suck will be sent home. The ones that do ok will be given a sticker, but you need at least a pitiful amount of independent thought and competence to get that far. (Of course where the lines are drawn vary by school and degree) The best… As I already stated are separated and given special treatment.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/12/2010 10:31:00 AM , Rating: 2
Flawless post. I agree completely.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/12/2010 10:26:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's evident that you're a moron.

Wow, how insightful.

quote:
Learning is the act of learning, douchebag. Education term used to describe the knowledge that has been taught or otherwise shared with you.

Well I guess this clarification of mine was completely lost on you, because this is not what you said in your original post. Reread that part that I quoted and you'll see how broken it was.

quote:
Wait, didn't you just say education is the act of learning? YES, you did, but then you go and copy-n-paste some definition you googled...is that what you learned in school? How to downplay your overall lack of intelligence, skill or talent by relying on wiki/google.

WTF are you on about? Your post was utterly nonsensical, and so I quoted a dictionary definition so that there could be no misunderstanding as to what 'education' means. I am well aware of what it means, but it seemed as though you were not judging by how horribly broken your argument was. I don't need to downplay anything. I know that I'm intelligent, and everyone who knows me knows it too. Your completely uninformed opinion on the matter is without merit or value.

quote:
Yes it does. Any time you have an otherwise stupid person believing they are smart because they went to school, you tend to end up with an elitist mentality.

Correlation does not equal causality. When you say that education breeds elitism, that is an implication of causality. That is why you are wrong. Education absolutely does not cause elitism. But there is a correlation in that some people who are educated are also elitist. Logic 101.

quote:
You are a worker drone. I can tell, because you're incapable of basic reading comprehension nor are you able to follow contextual hints.

It's funny how you criticize my reading comprehension given your poor grammar and misuse of words in the post to which I was responding. I guess you really are as daft as I initially assumed.

quote:
You're obviously suffering from buyers' remorse or the realization that your degree is worth little more then the paper it's printed on. The ROI on a degree is horrendous...so from a business perspective it is a terrible way to blow $40K & 4 years plus.

Actually not at all. Since I kicked ass in high school my college was paid for through scholarships. And I wouldn't call 4 fun and unforgettable years a waste either. I learned, excelled, and was hired into a well-paying and stable job in the fall of my senior year. I regret nothing about my college experience.


RE: Is This Fair?
By EricMartello on 8/12/2010 4:52:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well I guess this clarification of mine was completely lost on you, because this is not what you said in your original post. Reread that part that I quoted and you'll see how broken it was.


It's funny when you know you are wrong but still keep talking. Makes you seem even more stupidder.

quote:
WTF are you on about? Your post was utterly nonsensical, and so I quoted a dictionary definition so that there could be no misunderstanding as to what 'education' means. I am well aware of what it means, but it seemed as though you were not judging by how horribly broken your argument was. I don't need to downplay anything. I know that I'm intelligent, and everyone who knows me knows it too. Your completely uninformed opinion on the matter is without merit or value.


You've yet to display any intelligence. All you've done so far is...well...nothing.

quote:
Correlation does not equal causality. When you say that education breeds elitism, that is an implication of causality. That is why you are wrong. Education absolutely does not cause elitism. But there is a correlation in that some people who are educated are also elitist. Logic 101.


Feeble attempt at sounding smart...too bad you're still failing at basic reading comprehension: I never said that education causes elitism - I said it tends to breed elitism , which it does. There is quite a difference between "causes" and "tends to", but hey, "tends to" is not in the dictionary.

quote:
It's funny how you criticize my reading comprehension given your poor grammar and misuse of words in the post to which I was responding. I guess you really are as daft as I initially assumed.


Not as funny as you replying to something you have no rebuttal for, since you know you fail at 4th grade level reading skills.

quote:
Actually not at all. Since I kicked ass in high school my college was paid for through scholarships. And I wouldn't call 4 fun and unforgettable years a waste either. I learned, excelled, and was hired into a well-paying and stable job in the fall of my senior year. I regret nothing about my college experience.


Corrections to the above:

- You got your ass kicked in high school.

- You got accepted to Community College.

- They gave you a scholarship for being fat/black/asian/retarded whatever.

- You graduated into a job at Wal*Mart as a "Currency Transaction Specialist" - aka cashier (skipping right over the 'greeter' position most people have to start with)

- No regrets, man!
LOL


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/13/2010 8:00:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's funny when you know you are wrong but still keep talking. Makes you seem even more stupidder.

Oh the irony. What's actually funny here is how you even manage to operate that computer in front of you since both your brain cells are working so hard on remembering to breathe. Also, it's spelled "stupider." And when you use the 'er' suffix you are supposed to drop the word 'more.'

Your original argument was fundamentally broken, and the fact that you can't see it is downright pathetic. What's more pathetic is that someone actually voted it up. The only reason I'm wasting my valuable time (more valuable than yours, I can guarantee that) is because I won't let a jackass like you have the last word.

quote:
You've yet to display any intelligence. All you've done so far is...well...nothing.

Saying it doesn't make it so. I picked apart your feeble excuse for an argument and you failed to produce anything resembling a counterpoint.

quote:
Feeble attempt at sounding smart...too bad you're still failing at basic reading comprehension: I never said that education causes elitism - I said it tends to breed elitism , which it does. There is quite a difference between "causes" and "tends to", but hey, "tends to" is not in the dictionary.

I'm not attempting to sound smart. I'm explaining basic logic which sadly appears to be beyond your grasp. You, on the other hand, are failing miserably at English. Since you are apparently incapable of using a dictionary I will do it for you:

tend
1. to be disposed or inclined in action, operation, or effect to do something

breed
5. to cause or be the source of; engender; give rise to

'Tends to breed' means 'is likely to cause.' You are saying education 'is likely to cause' elitism. Therefore you are implying causality where there is only correlation, just as I said before. You are wrong, just as I said before.

quote:
Not as funny as you replying to something you have no rebuttal for, since you know you fail at 4th grade level reading skills.

See the above items. You are in no position to criticize anyone's language skills given that you don't even understand what you wrote in your own post.

quote:
- You got your ass kicked in high school.
- You got accepted to Community College.
- They gave you a scholarship for being fat/black/asian/retarded whatever.
- You graduated into a job at Wal*Mart as a "Currency Transaction Specialist" - aka cashier (skipping right over the 'greeter' position most people have to start with)

You really have no idea with whom you are arguing.
- I graduated high school with a 3.985 and the only fight I was ever in I won,
- I got accepted to all the schools that I applied: RPI, WPI, Stevens Institute, Clarkson University, and Penn State main campus,
- I'm Caucasian, male, average body weight, above-average IQ. I was in the honors program at college and my scholarships were for academic merit (but then you wouldn't know anything of that...).
- I graduated Summa Cum Laude and now work as an electrical engineer designing DRAM. I could post my transcript and resume, but I have no interest in give you my personal information.

quote:
- No regrets, man!

Please tell me that you haven't cursed this world by procreating, because that truly would be regrettable.


RE: Is This Fair?
By LRonaldHubbs on 8/13/2010 8:24:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but I have no interest in giving you my personal information

fixed


Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 12:53:11 PM , Rating: 2
He started the entire "if we can outsource this work let's do it" trend. Doesn't matter if there's talent in the US, doesn't matter how many bugs are in the code, all that matters is "lowest bidder."

But none of this stops colleges from claiming IT is where it's at. What else can they do? They are in it for profit, the fact they offer education is just a coincidence.

Today you need to be a cop, plumber, electrician, or some job that can't be outsourced. All these electronic innovations you're seeing; 3G and 4G phones are all invented overseas. They don't need you, that's the message. It's all part of the great dumbing down. And if you think you're coming out ahead shopping at Malwart well then "Mission Accomplished!"




RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By ianweck on 8/9/2010 1:19:53 PM , Rating: 2
Your politics is drowning out your other relevant points.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 1:22:30 PM , Rating: 1
He actually has relevant points?? Ever?


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By ianweck on 8/9/2010 1:33:06 PM , Rating: 2
Well I kind've agree about learning a trade as a way to protect yourself against outsourcing. You can be as competent and competitive as you want in your job, but if the bean counters think they can save money by moving your job overseas what can you do?


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/9/2010 2:57:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He started the entire "if we can outsource this work let's do it" trend.


Well I don't think this is true. The Mexicans (like my great grandparents), Chinese, Irish, and many others were "outsourced" long ago (even pre-USA days). Its called looking for cheap labor and there is nothing inherantly wrong with it.

But if your statement is true, maybe this is why Gates is opposed to this 'overeducation' of America. Everyone is over qualified. The whole market has been thrown out of whack by unreasonable education grants and the existance of a minimum wage (especially a federal MW).

If Gates had it his way, then he wouldn't have had to outsource in the first place.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 4:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
Well Americans accepted blue collar outsourcing for decades, but that was with the belief that more and more people would have white collar jobs. Now everything is up for grabs, which is a totally different situation.

Another way of saying over-educating is dumbing down. Are people over educated in South American countries? Is that where we're headed?

quote:
If Gates had it his way, then he wouldn't have had to outsource in the first place.

If by that you mean would he hire Americans at Bangalore wages then you are correct, but then what's considered a living wage here is different than there, so actually no there was no chance of those jobs staying here.

What people don't realize is that education is a business, and like any other purchase needs to be made after research. The school's rention rate, the hiring rates, and all sorts of info schools often do not part with, though they do collect it. One needs to look at general hiring trends as well, you can't get a degree in something just because you like it, there needs to be a future in it.

Or people could take their "over education" and go to places where their skills and expertise are valued and respected, as opposed to being made fun of by the ignorants of society. After all not all of us put beer, cigarettes, and french fry consumption as our top goals.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/10/2010 3:09:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well Americans accepted blue collar outsourcing for decades, but that was with the belief that more and more people would have white collar jobs. Now everything is up for grabs, which is a totally different situation.

What do you mean "but"? More and more people DO have white collar jobs. But now we have illegals to handle our blue collar jobs and Bangalorians to help us with our computers.

Just because something isn't happening to our citizens doesn't mean that it isn't happening to someone else.
We should be handling our own blue collar work regardless if we get paid Bangalore level wages. (And if that were the case, the dollar would be worth more/cheaper goods and we wouldn't mind those wages as much.)

quote:
What people don't realize is that education is a business, and like any other purchase needs to be made after research.

QFT, therefore not everyone needs a college education contrary to what our "overeducated" society claims.

quote:
Another way of saying over-educating is dumbing down. Are people over educated in South American countries? Is that where we're headed?

I think you are missing my point of "overeducation".
You can never know too much. But you can put too many resources into trying to get everyone that limitless knowledge. This is why I use quotes. The society is overeducated, not the individual people.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 4:27:15 PM , Rating: 1
While the percentage of people in white collar jobs may be up, are the overall number of white collar jobs still growing? Please don't count the barristas at Starbucks.

"I think you are missing my point of "overeducation"."

Perhaps we need to separate overeducation from a "it was always useless" sense from the overeducation that one could apply to all the people who are now underemployed.

So my question is - When 800 people with a BS in CJ apply for a single opening for a state trooper job do you consider them overeducated?

And why are there so many people with that degree? The colleges told the students "That's where it's at!" (From an outsourcing sense that may be true, but from a statistical outlook not really.)

"You can never know too much. "

Odd, it seems many here think they know it all, why bother with more?

"But now we have illegals to handle our blue collar jobs"

Actually I think we have a lot of legals handling a lot of those jobs. Dishwashers, restaurant help. Most owners don't want their businesses raided and closed up for even a day. Those legals still believe in the old US, when opportunity meant a chance to work, as opposed to what it means now, an opening for a quick and easy buck, like the assholes on Wall St.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 6:20:11 PM , Rating: 2
Awww, did I upset the hate mongers when I suggested that not all Mexicans are illegals?

Boy you sure take all that "We The People...." stuff very seriously.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/11/2010 4:13:12 PM , Rating: 2
You are getting out of hand. Especially since you replied to an imaginary audience (who are apparently anglos).

Overeducation.
Maybe I used the wrong word, and so you are not understanding me.
I do not believe that we should tax anyone to make sure that every citizen in the US has 3-4 Phds, a law degree, and a MA in Japanese. It is impossible. In fact, even if we had the resources to do that, you could not force people to do it.

Do you see what I am saying now?

You act like there is no line where we would effectively be throwing our money down the toilet. (Whether or not we paid for it ourselves or the gov't subsidized it)

I am a Mexican American. I am not illegal. But one branch of my family came over illegally as a matter of fact. Does this mean that I think we should let everyone over? No. It means that my great-granddad should've stayed in Mexico until he got permission to come back to the states again. Is he burning in hell (rest his soul)? No. But that has nothing to do with the law of the land.

Also, FYI I am libertarian and believe that the flow of labor should be more liquid and not be stopped at the boarder. But the welfare state that we have created makes that a bad idea.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/11/2010 5:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Especially since you replied to an imaginary audience (who are apparently anglos).


Sorry, all misanthropes look alike to me, especially on-line. My mistake.

quote:
I do not believe that we should tax anyone to make sure that every citizen in the US has 3-4 Phds, a law degree, and a MA in Japanese.

How many people are actually in the category you created here. Seriously? And when you're applying for a job, and you are fully qualified, if you're the only one who doesn't have the BS degree while hundreds have one, what are the odds you get the job? Now ask youself which of the two scenarios is more likely to occur and decide for yourself.

Libertarians that I have met don't live long. By that I mean that while they are paying taxes they are yelling and screaming and saying it's about the principal not about the money. As soon as they reach retirement age principle goes out the window and it's "gimme gimme gimme" with principle nowhere in sight. Now I'm not saying that's you, I'm just saying the group in general reaches a point where they only talk the talk, they don't walk the walk. Not that republicans differ much here either.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/13/2010 11:05:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sorry, all misanthropes look alike to me, especially on-line. My mistake.

You call me a hate monger and misanthrope but you are the one who is hating on Bill Gates and my belief that the gov't pushes for too much education.

You believe in the gov't and I believe that people are better than what you see on the news. What eventually saves this country is going to be people. Not more gov't.

I've seen it in the FLOSS community and I've seen it on the streets of my community. There are many more great people out than those who are greedy SOBs. Knowing that, I sleep great at night.

And as for myself (and to an extent other libertarians), I bet you I am more involved with my community than you are, because I obviously believe in the difference one can make, whereas you think we need a gov't to tell us what to do because you think most people are stupid and selfish.

quote:
How many people are actually in the category you created here. Seriously?

Read what I typed, bro. I am saying if the gov't is pushing for everyone to get a college education now (which people like you think is great) when should they stop pushing? After everyone has the aforementioned education level? You say there is no such thing as an over educated society. Who will decide? I propose the market decide, as does Gates.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/13/2010 11:15:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Libertarians that I have met don't live long. By that I mean that while they are paying taxes they are yelling and screaming and saying it's about the principal not about the money. As soon as they reach retirement age principle goes out the window and it's "gimme gimme gimme" with principle nowhere in sight.

This may be true, but I wouldn't be surprised since after years and years of kicking against the pricks (who are actual pricks) you might get tired of it and say to hell with it all because people like you don't listen to us. Who is worse: the guy who is libertarian part of his life and democrat the rest, or the guy who is a democrat or republican all his life. I'll take the former.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/11/2010 4:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So my question is - When 800 people with a BS in CJ apply for a single opening for a state trooper job do you consider them overeducated?


If the 799 people who were rejected end up at McDonalds, then yes. They are overeducated.

I was listening to NPR one day and they were talking about people who are in their 30s living with their parents and they said that they could not get a job and move out because they kept getting rejected for being overqualified.

They had stayed at their parents for the near decade that they spent getting an education to be a neurosurgeon or an engineer and now that they want to move out, and the job market is flooded with similar people, they can't get jobs at BestBuy so they would be able to move out. That is overeducated.


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By YashBudini on 8/11/2010 5:04:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If the 799 people who were rejected end up at McDonalds, then yes. They are overeducated.


Well that's awful convenient, but then tell me, what numbers become acceptable. If there's only one in this category did only 1 mistake happen? When does it become more odds than education. And who decides when?

And what about people who used their education for decades and then got laid off, and are now over qualified for lower paying jobs. What should they do?


RE: Yeah well Gates ought to know
By The Raven on 8/13/2010 10:41:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well that's awful convenient, but then tell me, what numbers become acceptable. If there's only one in this category did only 1 mistake happen? When does it become more odds than education. And who decides when?

The market decides. You propose that the gov't decides.
You are apparently undereducated to participate in this discussion.

quote:
And what about people who used their education for decades and then got laid off, and are now over qualified for lower paying jobs. What should they do?

Well if they really were that educated, they should've been smart enough to save up and invest for the bad times and they would get by fine. Unfortunately the gov't (rep or dem) encourages people to live in debt so most of the sufficiently educated people out there don't practice what they have learned.


Depends on the Curriculum
By Mitch101 on 8/9/2010 12:08:26 PM , Rating: 2
I agree but believe that it will depend on the line of work your interested in pursuing.

For instance I wouldn't want my Doctor to have graduated from an online course. Still from a college you know what you call the Doctor with the worst passing GPA. Sadly its still Doctor.

But there are certainly online courses and material available that the right minded and motivated person can acquire excellent education without every stepping into a classroom. In fact the best programmers I have ever met are all self trained. One had an offer years ago for well over a million plus for a piece of code he wrote. But again its down to the individual because Ive worked with many a college educated person who I wouldn't let touch a toaster but has a degree in my field. There is a lot to be said about military personnel who dont have a college education that to me are far superior to many formally educated individuals but again its person specific.

I will add too that many colleges dont offer the classes I need as an individual even online. The best I can find sometimes are online seminars and conferences where I can get my information. I seldom take technology classes in a classroom because I find most of them are nothing more than book readers and cannot think outside the box which is why they do classroom training because they wouldn't survive supporting the applications/systems they teach. Once I took a VB class that the teacher couldnt even explain the program I had written he would just look at my code and say professional edition and hope I never asked any questions.

My 2 cents.




RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Reclaimer77 on 8/9/2010 1:11:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or in our case, a YEE-HAW!!! president.


Are you referring to Bush who had a higher GPA than Al Gore in college?

Yeah good one Yash. As usual you're lowering IQ's every time you open your mouth.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 4:18:14 PM , Rating: 2
Which proves what? He's the second most useless person? At least Al can say nuclear.

Colleges have produced the likes of the CEOs of Tyco, Enron, Goldman Sachs. Do these guys seem liberal to you?


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Quadrillity on 8/10/2010 8:23:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
At least Al can say nuclear.

I see a growing trend of liberal bullies that like to pick on others for some type of impediment or ailment. So you have now resolved to making fun of Bush's speech problems? Good job, jerk.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/10/10, Rating: 0
RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Quadrillity on 8/10/2010 2:51:55 PM , Rating: 2
Your maturity level speaks volumes more than I could ever say...


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 4:01:37 PM , Rating: 1
And yet for some unknown reason you continue


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Quadrillity on 8/10/2010 4:15:49 PM , Rating: 2
because being polite and collective while you are acting like a child probably makes you very angry :) on top of you looking like a complete fool of course...


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 6:10:39 PM , Rating: 1
Actually this gang up on him business is amusing. Y'all have the confidence of Joseph McCarthy, and the charm as well.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Reclaimer77 on 8/10/2010 4:44:35 PM , Rating: 2
Notice he doesn't pick on ohh, let's say, Barney Frank. Who speaks like someone with Downs and is just a disgusting person all around.

How about Obama who doesn't seem to know the difference between corpsman and corpses? Not to mention the fact that he can't even speak to a room of 10 grade school kids without a teleprompter!

Just another biased liberal hypocrite.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 5:21:13 PM , Rating: 2
The 2 wrongs make a right theory. Like Gingrich going berserk about Clinton's sexcapades while having his own.

And I've already told you but you choose to ignore, I didnt' vote for Bam Bam and I never will. But like you fellow sheeple facts that don't work for you don't exist.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Nutzo on 8/9/2010 5:48:06 PM , Rating: 2
I assume you are referring to our current occupant of the Whitehouse?

He's the perfect product of the current liberal education system. Great speaker, tells everyone what they want to hear, but it completely clueless when it comes to how the real world works.

Of course we don't know what his grades are since he won't allow them to be release. Could it be that they would make Bush's grades look good by comparison?


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 7:39:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but [is] completely clueless when it comes to how the real world works.


How can you distinguish anyone in DC with this criteria?

-Full pay pension starts immediately when they no longer serve.

-Special treatment health benefits.

-A high paying lobbyist position to whatever company they favored. Or a job as a fair and balanced news reporter on Faux.


RE: Depends on the Curriculum
By Boze on 8/9/2010 1:02:56 PM , Rating: 3
The average physician entered medical school with a 3.5 GPA, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. The lowest people have entered with 2.5s, and still go on to become excellent physicians, because not everyone is comfortable with standardized tests. It doesn't mean your physician is going to be a bad one, it simply means one physician might be more knowledgeable than another.

Although one of the most frequent jokes we had in the Navy, in regards to health care, was:

What do you call the person who graduated last from medical school?
Lieutenant.


Not for the near future anyway.
By Exodite on 8/9/2010 11:59:39 AM , Rating: 2
Sadly you can't really teach the truly important things being taught in higher education, like organisation, planning and how to work in groups and projects, in a purely web-based environment.

As a software engineer I shudder to think about what the work efforts of someone who's learned about concepts such as OO purely from the web would be like.

Is the web a great way to pick up facts though?

Absolutely, higher education already makes extensive use of it for any course where it's appropriate.




RE: Not for the near future anyway.
By hemmy on 8/9/2010 12:34:03 PM , Rating: 2
Also as a software engineer, I disagree. This is a field that you can learn quite a bit more through your own experience. Yes, there is a lot of bad information online, but there is also a ton of stuff that pretty much nobody in a computer science related field will learn at college.

Certainly it helps to be able get help from professors/teaching assistants/other students, but I would be willing to bet someone without a college degree but plenty of experience would be a better programmer than someone fresh out of college.

Once we start getting into the nitty gritty of computer science fields such as AI, and the heavy mathematics side that is where a degree would definitely help out. (not to say they couldn't learn that online, but it would be more difficult that just the software development side)


RE: Not for the near future anyway.
By 67STANG on 8/9/2010 12:38:29 PM , Rating: 3
It works both ways. I have zilch in the ways of a college degree, but I am the Sr. Software Engineer for publicly traded company.

As I oversee 7 other software engineers, all that have a 4+ year degree, I shake my heads at their lack of knowledge. While they were out partying and taking non-related college prerequisites, I was already in the workforce gaining much more experience and skills.

Sadly for them, I make much more money than them as their manager, all while they have to pay off their student loans, of which I of course have nothing to pay off.

By the way, I'm self-taught with a combination of the web and tons of the ubiquitous 800 page programming books. The guys fresh out of college generally have a good grasp on OOP, but they typically have zero db knowledge and are hopelessly lost on implementation best practices.

I'm not sure I put much credence in your argument that organization, planning, group efficiency, etc. are college taught aspects. A lot of the new guys I work with are hopelessly unorganized and seem to have a touch of an entitlement attitude because of their degree.


RE: Not for the near future anyway.
By ianweck on 8/9/2010 1:15:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
taking non-related college prerequisites


This is what bothers me the most about college. The amount of fluff and time-wasting classes is pretty discouraging for someone who needs to go part time.


By YashBudini on 8/10/2010 1:09:34 PM , Rating: 2
You didn't even mention the sham of accreditation. The credits from schools in one part of the country aren't good enough in another, and vice versa.


RE: Not for the near future anyway.
By Exodite on 8/9/2010 4:43:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not sure I put much credence in your argument that organization, planning, group efficiency, etc. are college taught aspects.

I reckon it may well be different experiences due to different education systems. I'm Swedish after all and I suppose Swedish universities could well be a very different experience altogether.

Heck, there's a lot of difference in the quality and makeup of education between different lecturers teaching the same material even.

Anyway, my point is that the main source of grief for professors and students alike on the CS programs here are the self-taught people who believe they're going to university just to get a paper confirming what they already know.

Not only have they to be taught everything the other students have, they also have to be un-taught what they've picked up on their own first.

I'm sure there are a few rare exceptions out there, the genuine geniuses so to speak, but overall my own experiences of self-taught programmers is that while they're good at hacking up a solution to a very specific problem in a short time they can't produce legible or reusable code and most definitely can't produce documentation, reports and presentations. I suppose that's the real difference between a programmer and a software engineer, if one were looking for a definition.

For me, personally, my time at university has taught me to think bigger and to look at problems and solutions in an entirely different way.

In a very general sense I reckon higher education isn't so much a confirmation of knowing specific information but a confirmation that you're able to learn anything you need to on cue. As well as how to plan, organize, execute, present and review the work you actually do.

Then again that's just my experience, YMMV.


By 67STANG on 8/9/2010 11:35:54 PM , Rating: 2
It could be different education systems indeed. I spend half of my work week helping college-educated software engineers debug their code. One developer didn't even know inheritance when he came on board. Really?

Real-world experience and implementation is not something they teach in school-- at least not effectively. It's quite sad that <$3000 worth of books and webinars >$120000 college.

Some people need college to condition them for the workplace, I can accept and respect that. On the other end of the spectrum, some people are self-starters that soak up things that interest them like a sponge.

$0.02


By ipay on 8/9/2010 1:24:33 PM , Rating: 5
Here's what was said...

"...Gates says that "place-based" traditional college studies will be five times less important than it is today...

And there will be far less place-based things... College -- except for the parties -- needs to be less place based."

No where did Bill Gates advocate skipping a college education. He believes, in the future (if not already), that the web will be the delivery mechanism for education. It's called distance learning or remote learning!




By sleepeeg3 on 8/9/2010 2:11:52 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. JM is spinning words into Gates' mouth.


By clovell on 8/9/2010 4:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for pointing that out. It was a bit tough to glean it from the article.


By Belegost on 8/9/2010 4:46:40 PM , Rating: 2
No kidding, this is in fact one of the most disgusting spin attempts I've ever seen.

Anyone who watches the video should realize certain things:

a) Gates says that it's harder to get a college education because of limited funding and class space. He suggests that increasing the non-location based learning portion of a college curriculum is one way to increase the ability to get education to people.

b) At no point does Gates say anything regarding a lower utility in education, college or otherwise.

I honestly don't know what bizarre world the author of this article is living in that he can turn that video clip into a criticism of university education.


Agreed..
By wushuktl on 8/9/2010 12:55:13 PM , Rating: 2
Bill Gates is totally right. I learned way more about programming with online tutorials after graduating with a comp sci degree than I ever did while still taking classes. And all the while I was using Microsoft's Visual Studio Express Edition which, I feel, makes Bill Gates comments all the more relevant. Now it's just up to those in charge of hiring to learn how to search and identify talented people who don't have degrees.




RE: Agreed..
By YashBudini on 8/9/2010 1:02:34 PM , Rating: 2
And did he mention how much of MS's profits come from their certifications?

Not exactly an objective viewpoint, is it?


LIfe is what you make it
By far327 on 8/10/2010 2:08:47 AM , Rating: 2
Although I believe College is the safer road to a successful career and long term stability, I feel that a College education is...

A. To expensive
B. Requires too many irrelevant classes
C. Overwhelmed by teachers who are out to change the minds of their student's core beliefs.
D. Creates unfair and unbalanced competition within the job market between lower, middle and upper class systems.

I am a self taught 100% web based educated System Administrator with zero certificates. I work for a MAJOR corporation which employs thousands of people around the world. I also run my own IT repair business which is growing hand over fist. Motivation is key. If you want something bad enough in life, you go out and make it happen. College or no College. People generally know what they want out of life. My sister wanted to be a Doctor, and she is. Thank god she didn't learn how to operate on someone from a forum topic.

I think we can all agree on the fact that tuition is WAY to expensive .




RE: LIfe is what you make it
By Nutzo on 8/10/2010 12:14:28 PM , Rating: 2
Tuition has gone up faster than even medical costs, yet the solution from the left is to spend more tax dollars and give people even larger loans.

The local college where I live has been on a building boom over the last 10 years. Lots of new buildings and parking garages, and of course lots of $ spent.

If there where to start offering alot more classes over the internet they could have educated alot more students for alot less $. Just think how much could be saved if half the classes could be taken over the internet, and maybe come in once a month for the test.


Just as I thought too..
By zodiacfml on 8/9/2010 1:08:34 PM , Rating: 2
I find myself having difficulty getting a job compared to degree-less people.
More importantly, I have learned so much, so fast and things that are more essential in life on the web than in college.
Think, it has something to do with schools with a general desire to earn and not goodwill.

I recall a part in the movie Matrix, wherein Neo says " I know kungfu".




School is over rated
By Koa on 8/9/2010 1:11:23 PM , Rating: 2
School in my opinion especially lately is over rated. To many people are rushing through school doing what they need to, to enter the work place. Unfortunately no one learns to learn anymore but as a means to an end. This is the way "most" students approach the educational system and "most" teachers as well.(A lot because of how school is designed) People who learn on there own, must go above and beyond usual means to learn which i give them credit for. I am Project Manager at a Telecommunications Company and when i hire people i look more to the individual then there college degree to decide who is best fit.




College is kind of over rated.
By HrilL on 8/9/2010 1:16:02 PM , Rating: 2
I make more than all my friends that have graduated and as much as my sister who is almost finished all her CPA exams. While once she is a CPA she'll be making more. I did go to college though. Just never finished. And now my works going to pay for me to go back so I guess they think its more important than I do. But I still get paid a lot compared to most graduates. Hell I know people that have degrees and can't get a better job than I could get right out of high school. Sociology and Communication degrees are almost worthless and yet some of these people leave with them and have $30,000+ in loans to pay off and can't get a decent job.




Depends on the person
By raumkrieger on 8/9/2010 1:19:53 PM , Rating: 2
I was always told that a college degree has become what a high school diploma used to be: If you don't have one, no company is even going to look at you. I believe that is truly the case, but I also agree with Bill Gates in part.

A self-motivated, intelligent, hard-working person who really loves learning could easily learn everything they need from the internet, while avoiding the debt and the useless classes they require in college.
However, not everyone has the self-discipline to teach themselves and there are more jobs than there are self-taught people.

Regardless of the type of person you are I still recommend going to college. Primarily because it's hard to get a job if companies are too busy laughing at your lack of a degree, and also because college offers a lot more than classes and debt. I learn a lot more outside of classes than I do during class, and those types of teachings you can't find on the web.




Bill says college isn't necessary?
By d3872 on 8/9/2010 3:28:25 PM , Rating: 2
Would this be the same Bill Gates who testified before Congress about the need to loosen up the requirements for H1B visas because of the deficit of Americans with computer science degrees?




gates
By oguz1 on 8/9/2010 3:42:02 PM , Rating: 2
bill should stop trying to cure malaria. hey bill, are you going to feed and educate all those people - or clean up after them, or cure the new diseases they bring about?




Not much to disagree with
By waitloop on 8/9/2010 3:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
Gates is certainly right when he opines that distance learning will become increasingly important. As it does, the truly "good" colleges will probably dominate that space as well. It is also almost impossible to argue with the assertion that "self-starters" can learn on the web - self-starters can obviously learn in almost any environment.

Much of this discussion is about the value of a college education. It seems that the law of supply and demand is at work. As college degrees become more common, they become less (relatively speaking) valuable. To borrow a quote from "The Incredibles", "if everyone is special, then no one is."

Without stopping to define "good" and "bad", it seems safe to say that some colleges are good and some bad; some departments within colleges are good and some bad; some teachers within departments are good and some bad. What I would like to see emerge in this discussion is a definition of "good" and "bad". What is it that colleges are doing right (if anything)? What is it at which they are miserable failures (if anything)?




Misleading Interpretation
By ltgrunt on 8/9/2010 3:49:31 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not getting the vibe from that Bill Gates is saying people won't need college degrees. It sounds like he's stressing the availability, convenience and popularity of online college attendance rather than traditional college attendance which is tied to physical places in buildings, classrooms and whatnot.

The title and the entire interpretation put forth by this article seem to be a misleading jab aimed at making Gates look bad.




Cube said this years ago ..
By deeznuts on 8/9/2010 4:59:45 PM , Rating: 2
No college degree, just a dumb ass gee,
yeah you fool, who me?




Maybe
By spoerad1 on 8/9/2010 5:59:08 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe it has little financial value but it still has value. To whom is another question, not everyone thats for sure. College to those who seek knowledge is still is still very valuable. Yes there are plenty of people who attend college for no good reason and its a waste of time and money, but for some its not. Im not in college to make more money than my peers, but to learn. To those who deem it as useless because of the liberal leanings of its teachings are just ignorant fools who fear a different way of thinking. Liberals are no less wrong than conservatives and learning both sides is important. It does not turn people into flaming liberals why does everyone think that.




By invidious on 8/9/2010 6:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
The internet may be able to replace lecture halls and text books, but you still need institutions to test, grade, and certify to some standard. The recognition what the college degree is, not the books or the lesson plans. Thats just stuff that gets you the degree.

And to that end Gates is wrong, that isnt the future, much of that is available now. Except employers don't regard online univerisities with the same respect of a traditional univerisity. If you want to get a good job from a major corporation you need a degree. If you want to do freelance/contract work you do not. If you dont know what you want or are not good enough at what you do then you are better off without the degree and the debt associated with it.




By Hans Gruber on 8/9/2010 7:24:49 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, considering Bill Gates said "the internet was a fad" in 1993-1994. He also said Microsoft would continue to focus on our operating systems and application market. We thing the internet is a fad and will not be a major market. You can probably find the video on youtube.

It's not shocking that he now thinks college degrees are not important, considering he doesn't have one.

The lesson here. Money is power. If you have a lot of money, people will listen to whatever you say as if it's the gospel from the bible.




There is a big problem with this
By Lerianis on 8/9/2010 8:49:30 PM , Rating: 2
Namely that not all information that is presented as 'fact' on the internet is actually fact. Some of it is, some of it is opinion masquerading as fact, and some of it is simply lies.

Until that problem is taken care of, the internet is not going to be as good as a college education, even one taken online.




By javiergf on 8/10/2010 11:39:33 AM , Rating: 2
Man, the whole US crisis must be a scam when everybody here is on their 20s making 6 figures, no debt and didn't even have to go to college....




Good for me
By rburnham on 8/11/2010 10:26:58 AM , Rating: 2
College was good for me because it taught me how to use the software that I use at my graphic design job. I also learned about animation and movie-making in case I ever go that route, but the practical stuff I use today (mainly the Adobe Creative Suite).

The other good thing about college was the human interaction. Having to sit in a class and engage other people in thoughtful discussions, where I had to hear differing points of view was great. Learning how to be open to new ideas is a skill a lot of people need to learn. Having to present my own ideas and thoughts in a clear, concise manner can help anyone wanting to function in a business environment. Learning how to live an organized lifestyle is handy for everyone, and college taught me that too.

I am not saying skipping college makes you dumb, but it was a good idea for me.




My Two Cents
By jdsal on 8/12/2010 1:21:13 AM , Rating: 2
Each position within an IT team requires different attributes. An entry level engineer needs basic skills, but likely lacks experience. Hence, a college degree carries a lot of weight. Conversely, a senior level engineer generally requires extensive and specific experience with a given technology. Therefore experience is clearly the most important factor.

There are companies that have a mandatory requirement for college degrees no matter what level and I believe that to be a form of discrimination especially as it pertains to IT professions. My opinion is that a degree is a nice to have, but I certainly wouldn't ever make it a requirement.

I wouldn't say that a degree is unnecessary, but at the same time it should not be used to discriminate. There isn't that much standardization in the IT profession as there is in other engineering professions. If and when that ever did happen there would be some merit to requiring an formal education in these standards.




"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates














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