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Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates in front of Congress arguing for extension of H-1B visas  (Source: CNET)
Bill Gates went in front of Congress to win H-1B visa extensions for foreign scientists and engineers

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates stepped in front of Congress on Wednesday for another shot at persuading them to allow more foreign-born engineers to work in the United States for longer time.  He also made it a point to bring forth the idea of improvements on science and math education.   

While in front of the U.S. House Committee on Science and Technology, which was celebrating its 50th anniversary, Gates focused on U.S. competitiveness and the need for the U.S. to drastically reform its immigration program in order to give jobs to highly skilled workers.  He also called for investments in basic research, education, and work-force development. 

“I know we all want the United States to continue to be the world’s center for innovation. But our position as the global leader in innovation is at risk,” Gates said. “If this nation is to continue to be the global center of innovation, Congress, the current administration and the next president must act decisively.”

Gates posed arguments, charging at Congress on several different fronts.  He demonstrated the importance of improving science and math education in the U.S.  He claimed that the U.S. is seeing a “shortfall” on scientists and engineers with necessary skills for producing future technologies.  Gates concluded the presentation by suggesting that Congress utilize data more than before to measure the improvements among students.

The morning heated up when Gates moved onto the keynote of his appeal: immigration.  He argued that immigration policies need to be reformed to allow a raise in H-1B visa cap.  He claimed that even Microsoft saw the consequence of the current system when the company was only able to hire on a third of the highly-qualified H-1B visa holders it wanted. He also states that it is absurd for the U.S. to educate people then turn them around and send them home.

“At a time when talent is the key to economic success, it makes no sense to educate people in our universities, often subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, and then insist that they return home,” Gates argued. “To address the shortage of scientists and engineers, we must ... reform our education system and our immigration policies. If we don’t, American companies simply will not have the talent they need to innovate and compete.”

His prominent goal is to extend the time H-1B visa holders can stay within the United States and make up for what Gates claims is the lack of highly skilled scientist and engineers.

The problem which critics in Congress pointed out is the availability in jobs for U.S. citizens.  Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calf.) pointed out that by extending visas, American students would be displaced from those jobs.  Gates shot back, claiming that hiring top visa-holding engineers would create jobs for more average Americans. 

Congress hasn't  made a decision and may not in the near future.  Immigration reform has been a hot button issue for several years and we may not see results for several more.

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I don't buy it!!
By HighWing on 3/14/2008 12:15:31 AM , Rating: 5
While I partially agree with what one poster here already said about hiring a spoiled college grad vs a hard-working immigrant. The problem is that companies also over look the hard-working college grad because they can pay the immigrant less. And if you want prof, call Microsoft or any PC makers tech support. What do you get, an un-trained person in India. Why, because they can pay him a fraction of what it would cost for a trained American worker. If they could hire the immigrants here in the USA I'm sure they would do that in an instance.

And one other thing that really bugs me about this. Rather then hire more immigrants, if we really have a decline in trained Americans, (which I really doubt) rather then spending the money to ship in, train, and find room and board for immigrants, why isn't Microsoft and other companies doing more to make sure we DO have more trained USA citizens? Seems to me it would actually be less work and cheaper to set up scholarships for American kids? Which is why I am more inclined to believe it really boils down to the fact that they can pay the immigrant less rather then a decline in trained Americans.




RE: I don't buy it!!
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/14/2008 12:50:33 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
why isn't Microsoft and other companies doing more to make sure we DO have more trained USA citizens?

Because our education system is horribly broken and corrupt. It was one of the key points in the article and in his appeal to Congress.

And don't forget that Gates personally donates billions to higher education.

What do you propose he does that he hasn't already?


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: I don't buy it!!
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/14/2008 3:12:51 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
1) The education system is only mirroring corporate America.

K-12 education is the furthest from corporate America I could possibly think of. I'm not sure what you're saying there.

quote:
2) Bill donates a ton of money every year to get bigger tax breaks, that's all it is.

OK, so what about his good pal Warren Buffet, who donated his entire fortune to the B&MGF? Is donating 100% of his wealth a scheme to stave off 40% income tax? Bill donated $29 bil in the last 8 years on a net worth of $58 bil. There's a lot of criticisms to the way BMGF donates its money, but saying its done to avoid taxes is totally folly.

quote:
MS doesn't lend itself to stable employment

The company has a 5% turnover rate every year. It's part of their corporate handbook. This is pretty typical for most aggressive corporations, and as you said, everyone knows it when they walk in the door.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: I don't buy it!!
By steve1014 on 3/14/2008 10:34:31 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
I wasn't talking about K-12. I was talking about the degree granting institutions.


K-12 is the problem. The problem is that primary education is a glorified day care system. By the time an American student reaches the 9-12 grade they have decided they are on the chase for money or fame and most of them have lost focus in the more difficult classes (physics, calculus, etc)

In foreign countries kids don't have a choice. They will take those classes and they will do well or there will be hell to pay when they go home. They learn the important subjects at an early age. And they are encouraged to continue to learn more because knowledge will bring money (as opposed to the American way of thinking money before everything).

Our degree granting institutions are the best in the world thats why everyone comes over here. Gates has a very good point about us subsidizing their education. It is stupid for us to invest in their future and then give their future away when its about to pay off.

I think this is another good job done by Bill Gates.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By DeathSniper on 3/14/2008 11:14:12 AM , Rating: 2
Thank you. So many people still don't realize you can't build anything without a solid foundation - it will eventually collapse. School nowadays is a total joke...


RE: I don't buy it!!
By TheDoc9 on 3/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: I don't buy it!!
By ImSpartacus on 3/14/2008 3:27:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I love how he complains about American tech workers even though he's probably never done much of anything technical in his life.


So Gates just founded Microsoft with no technical experience? I'm sure he just went to Harvard for fun.

I'm not saying the man is perfect; he isn't, but he had a start up at one time, and for whatever reason, he made it.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By eman7613 on 3/14/2008 3:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
well, he did kinda drop out of Harvard to start up his company :P


RE: I don't buy it!!
By TheDoc9 on 3/14/2008 4:11:44 PM , Rating: 2
well, maybe he's building the next windows in his basement.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By goku on 3/17/2008 10:21:53 PM , Rating: 2
no.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By krwhite on 3/16/2008 7:53:26 AM , Rating: 4
Didn't know you could write a portion of an OS, and run the largest software company in the world without having technical skills?

Are you suggesting that giving billions to charities doesn't make you a good person? People call me a good person when I open a door for them. ;)


RE: I don't buy it!!
By Grast on 3/14/2008 12:37:10 PM , Rating: 5
Steve,

Sorry you are wrong. The K-12 education system in the country can and does teach our kids which are ready and willing to learn. The only thing wrong with our school system is the lack of attention by PARENTS who USE it as a DAYCARE.

The difference between U.S. citizens and immigrants is not education opportunity or access. It is their willingness and desire to use those opportunities to their fullest.

I also disagree with this idea that K-12 should be preparing every child for a college education. Lets face facts, not every child is going to college. Some of these kids simply do not have the skills. Other kids my have the skills but not the desire. Thus the real problem with US K-12 system. They treat every student the SAME. Every student is expected get higher education and thus a large subset of students are being SET UP TO FAIL.

We need to concentrating on this country's diverse population and guide our schools down the path of equality and realistic expectations. My local mechanic is great with my car but could not operate a computer to save his life. That does not mean he is stupid or unable to learn. Rather his skills and learning style are not strong in regards to book learning for lack of a better word.

1. In the last 25 years, we have lost all skill based training in elementary and Junior High schools systems. No more wood shop, metal shop, or skill based programs. The High schools system is slow but surely dismantling their industral arts cooriculum due to a lack of money and focusing on college prep type activities.
2. In the U.S., 60% of graduating students still have requirements unmet which need to be addresses before high education is available.

I also agree with the previous posters statement regarding Bill Gates motivation. Bill would rather hire immigrant trained in our higher education system as a contractor for a short period of time. This is the most economical means for supporting such a high-tech workforce without taking on the burden of additional full time employees.

In summary, our K-12 system is great if you have a SET of parents which ensure the children are actually performing the work and undurstanding the material. An involved parent then has the tools and opportunity to guide their child based on the childs capabilites and needs throught the school system and into high education IF NEEDED.

I personally do not need my mechanic, plummer, electrician, and many other TRADE to have college educations.

Later...


RE: I don't buy it!!
By dever on 3/14/2008 2:11:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The K-12 education system in the country can and does teach our kids which are ready and willing to learn.
You have several other points about the failures of our primary education system that are spot on. However, your initial statement is false. Many schools do not give equal opportunity.

For instance, my neighbor teaches 5th grade. Only one child in her class is a native English speaker. Much of the class time is spent just getting the children of illegal immigrants up to speed on basics and English. At the first parent-teacher meeting she emphatically told the parents of that one child not to send their kid to that school because he did not have the same opportunity to learn as he would elsewhere.

The real problem? Government. Period. There is no competition and there is little responsibility. In a system that allowed freedom of choice and competition, schools, like businesses, would be forced to cater to their customers (children). Those that don't, fail.

If your first instinct is to chime in about teachers rights and public schools, then you aren't concerned with the child's education. If you wear a pin that says "No Teacher Left Behind" then I may have to beat you about the head and shoulders.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By Grast on 3/17/2008 12:37:39 AM , Rating: 2
dever,

I would agree that certain regional schools based on immagration and the lack of effection leadership in the school district are not completely up to par. I would submit those incidents are not the normal situation but the exception.

I completely agree with your summation about better schools if free choice was allowed. I personally do not support the teachers in regards to their union or policies.

I believe the issue is able us choosing the best education for our kids.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By dever on 3/17/2008 4:43:22 PM , Rating: 2
They may be the exception, but they do exist, and typically in areas where parents are poorest, so their only recourse -moving away - is unfeasible.

Now that we agree, how do we affect change?


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/2008 12:48:50 PM , Rating: 1
So you think the fact that our degree granting institutions put a larger emphasis on providing financial assistance to students who play sports than students who study hard and have a consistent educational background isn't a problem? These institutions are effectively teaching the American public that it's more important to play football than develop your mind and get an education.

And this is just one foundational issue.

There is also a preference to admit foriegn students. Why is this? As nationals of other countries, they will pay a much larger tuition to the institution.

The university (a University of California system school, no less) I attended in 2000 had a startling number of a specific racial demographic (won't mention which- it really doesn't matter anyway) who could barely speak the language and pass the remedial english classes required to stay in the school, let alone pass the general eds required for a degree. But guess what, they were premitted to continue their education due to the fact that they had to pay a larger tuition to the college and because they had great grades in math, engineering, and other science related classes. And they were granted degrees despite their inability to pass basic writing courses.

On the other hand, I, an American citizen (I'm not white though) was not handed a degree until I returned to take the two spanish classes which were not even relevant to my degree.

And yes, out of state tuitions are typical, and apply even to American citizens. But for American citizens not on education visas, they can become residents of whatever state after six months to a year and pay a lower tuition rate. Foriegn students on education visas do not have that option, and as a result, pay a higher tuition rate for the entire term of their education. And they don't even qualify for many of the financial grants available for American citizens.

I call that a pretty serious systemic issue when universities choose not award educational opportunities to their own communities in favor of foreign students.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By AToZKillin on 3/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: I don't buy it!!
By dever on 3/14/2008 2:18:36 PM , Rating: 2
I don't blame them. The highly burdensome practices of Washington makes it very expensive and risky to hire a direct employee. I'm trying to start a small business. I've used a contractor for periods of time, but I can't imagine hiring direct employees with all of the regulation and red tape that government puts in the way.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/2008 2:51:33 PM , Rating: 2
Burdensome? Comparatively, Washington isn't as bad as other places. That's why Amazon, T-Mobile, Isilon, and plenty of other enterprise class companies are based in the greater Seattle area and hire directly. That, and the fact that MS has no excuse other than trying to reduce the overhead of having to provide benefits.

A little known practice of Microsoft is that they tend to send people on 50-100 day "sabbaticals" every year so they don't have to pay benefits.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By AToZKillin on 3/14/2008 7:54:40 PM , Rating: 2
Agree with Rogue on that one. Except that I worked for T-Mobile here as a contractor (and they are awful!), and they are about 65% contractors. Same reason as MS, no benefits, and looks better on paper to have fewer employees and thus better ratios.

Yea, as far as I know, both Microsoft and T-Mobile do that. Since you are a temp, you can't really argue with them. If you do, they just let you go without notice/warning, which is something they are completely entitled to doing.

For Microsoft, it somewhat makes sense, as they operate on a project basis at times. But for T-Mobile, they REALLY exploit it, which is why they have no excuse to do that 30 day sabbatical trick. They have kept people around for over 3 years w/o hiring them (one of my coworkers was in that boat), and that person hasn't been paid a dime in benefits from T-Mobile, nor gotten an actual payraise. No, I'm not bitter towards T-Mobile...haha.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/2008 9:35:27 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I have personal experience with T-Mobile- my girlfriend works at their headquarters.

Honestly, I knew that they've been on a hiring freeze for almost two years, but I didn't know they did a 30 day sabbattical as well. My girlfriend started as a contractor and was hired within six months. They do have an abnormal number of "vendors," and keep certain contractors on for longer periods than they should, but I hadn't heard about the sabbatical trick from them.

From what I understand, it mostly depends on what group you're trying to get hired into. The more technical the division, the more likely you are to get hired. Also, they just completed the acquisition of Suncom and are still integrating those employees. T-Mobile has seen quite a bit of transition over the last few years- which directly affects hiring decisions. I haven't seen anything to indicate it's the same degree as Microsoft, who does this as general practice.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By dever on 3/15/2008 11:12:09 AM , Rating: 2
You are free to work for someone else. Make yourself marketable or start your own business. If you think a company is mistreating you, your actions tell them otherwise by staying there. The unemployment rate is low, there are plenty of opportunities.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By gramboh on 3/14/2008 5:54:35 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
2) Bill donates a ton of money every year to get bigger tax breaks, that's all it is. Wealth management is a huge industry. By donating and distributing your money in certain ways, you can maximize your deductions and minimize the impact of taxes.


I see this one a lot, it doesn't make any sense, show me a tax break that leaves you with more cashflow than simply paying income tax on the relevant amount. If you seriously think Gates' is donating for 'tax breaks' you are insane. He has an unimaginable amount of money, it's not even relevant to consider taxes as the reason.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/2008 12:26:26 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.cpa2biz.com/Content/media/PRODUCER_CONT...

quote:
A charitable lead trust (CLT) enables a donor to assist a charitable organization for a period of time (either for a specified term of years or for the life of certain specified individuals living at the date of the transfer), after which the asset reverts to the donor or donor’s estate:


This is one example of how you can keep your money tax free, and even generate interest for a charitable organization, and then pull your money out later.

And this is just ONE example of how you can donate, without losing money and maximizing your deductions.

The next question I have is what form did these donations take, was it hard currency or did it take some other form, like vehicles, real estate, investments etc.

Does it make sense now? There's a multimillion dollar industry supporting these ideas and advising people with wealth how to use their money the most effeiciently. It's not just a gimmick, otherwise the wealthy would not be using these services.

Does it make sense that a multimillion dollar industry exist for this if it really did not yeild some benefits?


RE: I don't buy it!!
By gramboh on 3/18/2008 3:07:53 AM , Rating: 2
Except that the money donated is an opportunity cost while it is in use by the charitable organization. If you are specifying the use/investment of those funds in a CLT that is tax fraud.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By poweruserx83 on 3/14/2008 1:21:05 PM , Rating: 3
"4) If Microsoft's products are an example of of what imported knowledge can do, I'm not impressed."

I don't know why I wasted time reading your first 3 points. You're a loser and an idiot.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By RogueLegend on 3/14/2008 2:31:40 PM , Rating: 2
Right- are you capable of actually of forming a coherent argument and proving anything I said wrong? Sorry, but I have far greater respect and consideration for the opinions of those who just disagreed with me than someone (like you) who can't seem to form a real point.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By rudy on 3/17/2008 12:24:19 AM , Rating: 1
People say our lack of education is the problem but it is not. The US according a major Chinese survey still has the vast majority of the best Universities in the world with no one coming close to our number and quality. The problem is that why the heck would I want to work my but off for 8+ years getting a PhD only to get paid what a UAW worker is paid. And that happens way to much in many of our scientific communities. Why would I work that hard to just get beat out by a foreigner who will take much less. Bill is basically making the problem worse. We need less PhDs so they can get paid what they are worth not more so they can be paid less. When we get more and pay goes down then you bet less kids are interested in pursuit of the career.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By wascv on 3/14/2008 12:59:01 AM , Rating: 2
Do you even know what an immigrant is?


RE: I don't buy it!!
By InternetGeek on 3/14/2008 1:02:02 AM , Rating: 2
Check http://learn.microsoft.com. The amount of resources and free/cheaper stuff for American residents only is easily 3 times what's available to other people.

If you ask me they are doing their part in this way and offering better education programs. In other hand, whenever a school turns down a microsoft-sponsored classroom and stuff they just take it to another place... likely another country (china, india, etc) where they are desperate for that kind of thing.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By InternetGeek on 3/14/2008 1:03:24 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, the link should be: http://learning.microsoft.com


RE: I don't buy it!!
By mcmilljb on 3/14/2008 7:20:02 AM , Rating: 2
I hate seeing sponsors turned down because people believe there is such a thing as too much or they don't want to commercialize our schools. If Microsoft gives a ton of money so kids can learn, who cares if they want to put their name on it. It's better than them doing drugs.


RE: I don't buy it!!
By FITCamaro on 3/14/2008 8:59:40 AM , Rating: 2
With you there. Where I went to college, before I got there Microsoft offered to build a brand new computer science building. All they wanted out of it was a recruiting office in the building. The school turned it down.

Because it would have been so horrible if students actually had a better shot at getting a job at Microsoft.


Why become an engineer?
By flgt on 3/13/2008 11:57:27 PM , Rating: 5
Why would the best and brightest become engineers when the market is continually being flooded with cheap labor on and off shore. They are going to go straight to other professions. Keeping a tight labor market increases wages and give individuals the incentive to put in the time, effort, and money to pursue the engineeing profession.




RE: Why become an engineer?
By jamdunc on 3/14/2008 3:06:01 AM , Rating: 3
There is money to be made as an Engineer whether you are American, British, Taiwanese, Ethiopean, Congalese or Martian. You just have to study for it and then apply that study.

I myself started as an Aicraft Avionics Technician with the RAF to gain some trade knowledge and a good background and have since trained as an Electrical Engineer and am currently training as an ROV Pilot/Tech. With every step I make more money and in a couple of years I should be on £50k+ a year which is a very good wage for the UK.

What Bill is saying and most people here are missing is that the US isn't producing enough Engineers (just as the UK is also experiencing this) with more people going for jobs like Solicitors/Accountants as they see the money there as it is more 'public'. I never knew what an Engineer could earn because they are very rarely in the news, yet when Celebrity A hires a Divorce Solicitor on £400 a hour, that I do hear and it makes Average Joe want to become a Solicitor.

But in less developed countries, they see Engineering as a way out and into a better future for them and their family. Which is why they study abroad (normally in a G8 country), get the skills and knowledge and then get a job as an Engineer in one of the G8 countries. Bill can see this and wants to tap into it. Not because he wants to but because he HAS to. The majority of Americans don't want to be Engineers anymore it seems.

Nb: A Solicitor is a type of lawyer in the UK, the other being a Barrister. It's a funny system we have :p


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 3/14/2008 9:17:49 AM , Rating: 2
It's not really any different here in the U.S. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, or business major. Both are relatively worthless in the grand scheme of it all. Requiring hard work, lots of time, conviction, and the desire to do what needs to be done is what keeps people out of Engineering. Nobody wants to bust their balls to get ahead through hard work when you can be a Lawyer or Business major and either get paid by these hard workers to argue petty squabbles or "manage" these hard working people who look good making you in turn also look good.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By themadmilkman on 3/14/2008 10:49:58 AM , Rating: 2
While I may agree with you on the business majors, I can't agree with you on the lawyers. Law is, generally speaking, NOT easy work.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Xerio on 3/14/2008 10:54:20 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks for just discrediting my four years of hard work as a business major...


RE: Why become an engineer?
By blckgrffn on 3/14/2008 3:08:05 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think "business" major is really that special until you complete an MBA after working in the real world and you can start to make sense of some of theory you learned getting your BA.

I completed three years or so of undergrad work as a business before dropping it all for my CS degree, and yes it was a cake walk.

That's my $.02, anyway.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Ringold on 3/14/2008 4:49:59 PM , Rating: 2
If by "business major" you all mean business management, then I'd agree. I dropped that bull like a hot potato my very first semester in college.

I can understand engineers having an elitist attitude, I recognize those tend to be more difficult degrees, but the fact that it is business majors that come in second to engineering degrees in pay suggests they're not near as 'worthless' as all you people seem to think. It bounces around, but accounting, finance, and economics all come in close second.

Beyond that, all the work of engineers would be relatively useless without people versed in business, marketing, economics and finance to know how to commercialize and realize profits from products/services/etc. Specialization of labor 101.

No, what are worthless majors in the modern economy is, IMHO, almost the entire college of liberal arts at most universities. Not that they shouldn't exist, but they attract far too many people who know they can 'get by' with such a major.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Xerio on 3/14/2008 5:04:51 PM , Rating: 2
I wouldn't call my Business Management degree "special" but I also wouldn't call it worthless. I learned a lot at school that has helped me succeed since. Also, it depends on the business program you went through. I was fortunate to go through a program where we actually started and ran a business on campus for a semester. We had to come up with a business plan, present that plan to a financial institution to get a loan, and take that money and run a successful business. The only thing that wasn't "real world" about the experince was that labor was free (run by us students).

I do agree, however, that an MBA is worth a lot more than a BS, and you almost have to have the MBA to get a decent job in the business world. After I have worked a few more years I plan to go back and get mine.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Ringold on 3/14/2008 5:21:04 PM , Rating: 2
Where'd you go? Just curious, that sounds like a good program.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By Xerio on 3/14/2008 6:28:07 PM , Rating: 2
I went to Brigham Young University - Idaho. BYU-I patterned their program on University of Oklahoma (OU), who has a similar program. I believe there are other schools that also have similar programs. Most schools call it "Integrated Business Core." The OU site has some great information: http://price.ou.edu/currentstudents/ibc.aspx


RE: Why become an engineer?
By aos007 on 3/14/2008 2:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
Quite the opposite. That makes THEM "smart". Why SHOULD they bust their balls (which by the way does NOT get you ahead in IT, unless you count getting more work and responsibility for the same pay as getting ahead) and have somebody else get riches AND fame? After all the goal is not to work as hard as you can, but to live happily (and make money, which is the major factor in former). Scientific/engineering jobs are really only for people who enjoy the subject matter - the drawbacks are too high for a generic person looking for a profession to consider becoming one. Unless you're in a less developed country looking for a way to emigrate, then a high tech degree might be your ticket out (though less today than it was a decade or two ago).


RE: Why become an engineer?
By mindpower on 3/14/2008 2:19:25 PM , Rating: 2
EXACTLY.
I am an embedded systems engineer and I can tell you that most people want to go to school for something that will make them more money. Engineering requires a lot of thinking and for most people it's hard work and uninteresting so they go to business and law or nursing. Nurses make more money than engineers sometimes.

Bottom line, you want more talented engineers? You need to entice talented people to make it worth for them. Start paying entry level engineers 70k per year (USA-Midwest for example) and you will see how people WILL study hard, WORK hard and you will have talented people. Engineers who are not good enough would be weeded out because smarter ones would blow right pass them.

To me Engineers (and people with highly technical skills) should be at the TOP of the salary ranges. No lawyer or doctor or businessman could even go to work without using 50 things in their homes that was engineered to just get to their car.

I could be biased but I am not unrealistic. We are all typing on a keyboard that is engineered so even this post would not be possiblt without them. So making 100k for a good engineer (in midwest) is not a CEO salary but good enough to entice young people to go to engineering.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By aos007 on 3/14/2008 3:09:38 PM , Rating: 3
As an engineer I don't think we should be paid more than doctors. That profession requires keeping up with changes just as ours does, and it requires considerably more education and practice. Not to mention being responsible for people's lives and the liability it comes with.

Businessman is another thing though. I don't see why a manager managing a group of high performing engineers should be paid more than them. But things aren't that simple nowdays as managers often have a lot of other responsibilities. For example, managing client and upper management expectations and so on. A good manager can be well worth the money and besides I believe in a lot of companies they actually don't get paid better than most engineers anyway.

What irks me more is that an executive who gets booted from a company A for underperforming or even worse creating a hostile work environment has no problem finding a job at company B soon after. In most other professions you would have a hell of a time getting another job if you were booted for underperforming from a previous one.


RE: Why become an engineer?
By gmw1082 on 3/17/2008 8:07:14 AM , Rating: 2
"What irks me more is that an executive who gets booted from a company A for underperforming"

Don't forget the multi million dollar severance package that goes with it.


Unemployment isn't exactly at an all time low...
By Ryanman on 3/13/08, Rating: 0
By Ryanman on 3/13/2008 11:14:03 PM , Rating: 2
and before anyone asks, I'm white and my parents make 120k+ a year : D


RE: Unemployment isn't exactly at an all time low...
By sinful on 3/14/2008 1:08:28 AM , Rating: 4
Sounds like they're prime candidates for outsourcing.


By TheDoc9 on 3/14/2008 12:33:29 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, +10 rating.


By SunAngel on 3/13/2008 11:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
what type of company would hire an untalented spoiled kid from suburbia over a smarter person with a work ethic?

a company where mom and/or dad are managers and have agency issues. good thing though is corporate policy has the potential to weed those lame manangers out...the best way to avoid civil rights violations...start a company and only hire independent contractors...you'll avoid all kinds of laws...and taxes.


By eye smite on 3/13/2008 11:47:10 PM , Rating: 1
Well, I for one have been laid off from 2 tech support jobs in the last 6 yrs due to outsourcing overseas. Trust me, american jobs in the tech field is being reduced every year and I've been laid off for 13 months and haven't found another tech support job. Luckily my SS disability just got approved and I can work on peoples computers for cash and survive. I'm just going to watch all this continue to get worse and worse for the average american. It's sad.


By Zelvek on 3/14/2008 12:37:01 AM , Rating: 1
People need to stop mixing up outsourcing with immigration. Outsourcing is cheap because the min wage and cost of living is so much lower in many other countries. Immigrants however have the same conditions as anyone else in the USA.

Just out of curiosity was this tech job help desk support? Because that and retail level work are about the only areas that seem to be suffering (I'm a systems admin BTW). Other areas of IT just are not feasible to outsource because you need someone to do physical work as well. Retail level work seems to suffer because most people think its cheaper to just buy a new computer, which sometimes it is.


By 67STANG on 3/14/2008 1:11:09 AM , Rating: 3
I think it depends on your locale... I'm a programmer and believe me, there's major outsourcing in that area too...

I had no problem getting a job 8 months ago after selling my last business. I was then recruited away from that company 3 months in to another company that paid double and now another company is trying to steal me.... Not trying to "toot my own horn", but I believe if you strive to be the best at what you do, you will always find work.

IMHO, blaming being out of work for 13 months on outsourcing is a faulted argument. I don't know anybody that REALLY wants to work that can't find a job in 2-6 weeks.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 3/14/2008 8:49:19 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I don't know anybody that REALLY wants to work that can't find a job in 2-6 weeks.

You pretty much nailed it. I'm a white young american, but I'm also an engineer, with a solid work ethic and skillsets that allow me to compete with people twice my age. I've never had a problem getting a job, nor keeping one. Salaries have always been good as well.

Now if you want to talk about BS in hiring, look no further than Affirmative Action, Disibility Rights, and more. The fact that a company should have to hire and accomodate someone who is clearly less capable than someone else who applied is pure BS. But if you don't the lawsuit would cost you far more than lost productivity. These people make the claim under discrimination on the basis of Race, Sex, Handicap, etc... and they win every single time.


By FITCamaro on 3/14/2008 9:03:23 AM , Rating: 1
With you there. I hear crap about companies striving for diversity in the workplace and hate it. What does it matter how diverse a company is? Shouldn't you hire the best people regardless of race or gender? If that means that your company is 100% white, black, asian, etc, so be it.


By Ringold on 3/14/2008 5:01:40 PM , Rating: 1
I agree with both of you on the job deal. People I know that either just happened to be looking for work or recently graduated last year, across engineering and business majors, had no problem finding work. In fact, the local newspaper said it was the most frenzied recruiting season in living memory, and almost everyone I know had multiple counter-offers. Job interviews, they said, were more like the potential employee interviewing the company rather than the other way around.

Going further back in time, people can feel free to google the Federal Reserve Beige Book, where they survey industries across America by region periodically. Skilled labor (read: IT/engineering, and biotech) was in shortage before the last recession, was slack only in some parts of the country for a very short period of time, and immediately (even while the recession was ongoing) went right back to being in severe shortage.

More recently, a recruiter friend of mine told me that job fairs here in Orlando have hit record numbers of employers looking to snatch up fresh graduates, and this was just a month or so ago. Is America in recession? It may be for blue-collar workers, but for the realm of the white-collar information-age worker, all seems well job-wise.


More of "the myth"
By BigDH01 on 3/14/2008 10:27:10 AM , Rating: 5
Another example of the "myth" that started making the rounds due to the NSF in the late 80s and early 90s. It's nice to see that it still persists, even among people of this board.

If you lined up all of the computer scientists in the United States, there would be more top talent than Microsoft would know what to do with. They may already be employed or in academia, but in a free market they can always be swayed. The problem is, they command a large salary. What Bill Gates is really saying isn't "There isn't enough talent," it's, "There isn't enough talent to work at what we are willing to pay." For everyone here that loves capitalism, the obvious solution is simply for Bill Gates to pay what the market bears. However, like most American youth, many here agree with Bill that we should simply increase cheap supply. That's fine, I guess, if you are fine with global wage arbitrage. Let wages in the US stagnate while the cost of living increases and the rich make their riches. Today, it's someone else's problem, tomorrow, it's your's.

As for the US not producing enough scientists and engineers, what complete and utter BS. This is part of the myth, and I can't believe people are still ignorant of the reality. The US overproduces scientists. We have for about the last 15 years. Simply Google for unemployed or underemployed PhDs and scientists. And this is not just in the social sciences. This includes engineering, physical sciences, biological sciences, etc. The US produces more well qualified American scientists than the industry could possibly handle. Many of them are currently engaged in post doc work (very long hours, very little pay) as they can't find faculty jobs and aren't being recruited or hired by the private sector. There is NO shortage.

Then people ask stupid questions like, "Why do schools in the US do such a lousy job of teaching science?" Did you ever ask if it's because the students don't care? Scientists don't get paid much, they work long hours, and there's very little respect. The money in this country is in accounting, finance, management, and other business fields. This is the reason that more and more college students choose business over science and engineering. They see the writing on the wall when all their science TAs have PhDs.

I wish I had seen it. I graduated with a degree in Microbiology. I wasn't a slacker either. I even took classes in C, C++, and Java thinking that a combination of programming and Micro would set me up for biotech (3.7 GPA in my program). I had lab experience and excellent references. My single offer? Mid 20s. Laugh. The only people recruiting my classmates and I were scientific temp agencies. I ended up in IT (thank God for the IT classes I took) as did another of my classmates. Another took a lab rat job in Boston (Wyeth, the company she did her internship with, had a hiring freeze), some went back to their home countries, and most went to grad school hoping things would improve. The best Microbiologist I knew (3.8 GPA, several years in a lab, several publications in respectable journals about vaccinations against viruses, Master's degree) ended up going into the Peace Corps. No idea where she is now. This is the reality for scientists.

So forgive me if I seem a little skeptical about Microsoft's claims. Genentech and other biotechs have been making the same claims for years despite the fact that American scientists are overproduced. The real reason places like Genentech refuse to hire American scientists (they are everywhere) is because they typically accrued quite a bit of debt getting their PhD and demand higher salaries. Yes, Genentech has built facilities overseas, but why take the risk in foreign direct investment if you can convince Congress to let the foreign labor come here? This is their real goal and always was. The minimal amount of intellect required for the cheapest possible cost. I suspect Microsoft is thinking the same thing. If you agree with their thinking, fine, but don't make the claim that there aren't enough qualified Americans willing to do the job.




RE: More of "the myth"
By dever on 3/14/2008 2:52:19 PM , Rating: 3
You may have to put pride aside and work hard at every opportunity.

Indulge me so I can tell you a story about my previous career. I did so-so in college, but I skipped out on the tech degree I originally thought would be a good idea and ended up getting a "soft" degree in design.

However, I was willing to work anything and took a job as a technician through an agency immediately after college in a high-tech company starting at close to minimum wage. I cringed at the lazy, non-degreed, full-time line workers who told me it wasn't fair that they were making so much more than me and I had a degree. I told them that I accepted the job and was given an opportunity. I have no delusions that I have a right to someone else's money.

I wasn't terribly self-directed at the time, and did not have a firm grasp of what I wanted to do. However, I took various design & experiment, programming, statistics and other classes while I was working, so that I could perform my job very well and improve myself.

I always delivered more than what was expected. As a technician, I was given experiments to perform by the engineers. I not only executed experiments very well, I took it upon myself to improve on experiments (additional variables, etc). I would then take the results and analyze them myself before submitting test results to the engineers. Along the way I took classes all the time. I learned a few programming languages and made software tools to automate processes that were tedious. Other technicians would read books or talk sports while running an experiment. Not me, I believed that my performance was not only beneficial to my future but to my own integrity.

Before long I was not only a full-time employee but I was awarded an engineering position in the R&D department. I was the only engineer in the department without an engineering degree. And only the second without a degree beyond a bachelors (the other engineer graduate degree had been there for 30-something years and was a fellow). I was willing to work and believed that work produced results.

Even though I loved that job and my coworkers, I took a huge risk and quit that job while still "young" and am now trying to start my own software company. After a few years, I'm still not making as much as I would have if I had stayed, but the experience is priceless, and I have the potential of making much more.

The potential for individuals to achieve in the United States is unlimited. If you believe you are limited, you WILL fulfill your own prophecy.

Sorry for the lecture... but it seemed relevant.


RE: More of "the myth"
By dever on 3/14/2008 2:59:21 PM , Rating: 2
P.S. A friend and fellow engineer at that company goofed up on his visa paperwork and was exported.

I now live in a city where there are illegal immigrants weaving strollers through traffic just yards away from a crosswalks, and police do nothing. What can they do? They have no paperwork... so how do you give them a ticket? They're essentially beyond the reach of the law.

The hipocrosy is frutstrating to say the least. We punish and regulate immigrants who contribute to our society and turn a blind eye to those who leach. Not a formula for success.

Immigration has always been vital to our country and there are millions who want to be part of this great land. Why not take advantage of that and allow those who are skilled to add to our success?


RE: More of "the myth"
By Ringold on 3/14/2008 5:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know what some people think the "American Dream" is; I suspect some believe it is a god-given right to a high standard of living. To me, though, and to those that founded the country, your post is the very embodyment of the 'American Dream'. Some politicians go on 'poverty tours' through the low-income government-subsidised areas of the nation, then give a speach about how the 'American Dream' is dead (and how the Republicans BBQ'd it and handed it to the 'rich'). Of course they think the dream is dead when all they cater to is that demographic. If they'd take a look at people like you, and visited successful small businesses and asked how they managed to achieve success they'd see it was alive and well, just as it always has been.

Not that it's perfectly healthy, regulation on small business is devastating, as is taxes, but thats a different, though related, issue.


RE: More of "the myth"
By mindless1 on 3/14/2008 10:23:11 PM , Rating: 2
The American dream is one of equality, that if you do what society says you're supposed to, to better yourself and contribute, you will receive a fair pay and be able to live with modern convenience, have a certain level of comfort and security and raise a family all the while getting a couple hours of sleep every other day.

The American reality is that the infrastructure supports greed over morality and those spending their time trying to be productive, instead of trying to amass a mountain of money, end up making life better for others but end up poorer doing so.

The real shame is when a prior poster writes something ignorant like "lazy line workers". Which is more lazy, someone sitting on their bum studying for several years or someone working full time, usually overtime or even two jobs actively contributing to society? The truth is that college makes a person vain to think they somehow deserve "more" instead of that person realizing it's not "more" they deserve it's only a training towards a specific field. It is true that person should receive higher wage to enable society to keep educational costs bearable, education is extremely important, but the typical mindset of a college student is that they're somehow automatically entitled to a higher standard of living and that it's those doing MORE work that are lazy while they are not. It is a bit laughable and I can't have any pity for them if they can't find a job when they study what they want to suit their personality instead of what the job market demands.

In short, the American dream is you can pick what job you have and be paid well for it. The reality is your worth is still based on the good old principles of supply and demand.


RE: More of "the myth"
By dever on 3/15/2008 11:49:06 AM , Rating: 2
That post was a capstone to your moniker.

Which one of our founding documents says "do what society says?" or "receive a fair pay?" or "live with modern convenience?" or "have a certain level of comfort and security?" or "pick what job you have?" or "be paid well for it?"

Nauseating rubbish.

The American Dream can be summed up in one word... FREEDOM . Nothing less. None of what you mentioned has anything to do with freedom.

Comfort & security? You must have learned American History from the monopolistic government system. Every colony was populated by immigrants who escaped tyrrany and oppression to a life of freedom and it's inherant opportunity. Then these same, were forced to form a loose federation of these sovereign states and sacrifice their lives to escape further threat of tyranny.

Equality , means equal opportunity, not equal results.

If you work for another company, you do so by choice, so long as our country remains free. Certain jobs have a higher demand or lower supply of workers and thus those jobs pay more. There is a reason for this. If these jobs were easy, everyone would do them.

Being self-employed is difficult. I've worked for fast food, grocery stores, factories, small businesses and large corporations. There are many times I think that I might just apply for a 9-5 job, where I come home at 5:30 and don't even think about work until the next day, or have a full weekend off. Instead, I'm never 30 minutes away from answering a client's email (except while I'm sleeping). I'm free to take this on myself, because I think it may benefit me and my family. I can also understand the person who would like to benefit himself and family by working a lower-paying, low-stress job with regular hours and gauranteed time off. He does this instead of demanding a higher pay. It's a trade off. There are millions of factors beyond the one-dimensional "how much did you sweat today" variable that defines the value of labor.

By the way, I was the one that said "lazy line workers." I did not intend to imply all line workers were lazy. Perhaps you missed it, but I was at the time working as a "line worker." (I have nothing but fond memories, by the way.) I was talking about a subset of line workers, specifically the lazy ones. Makes sense, doesn't it? Just like "line" modifies "worker" and defines a subset, lazy modifies "line worker" and further reduces the size of the set. Many of the line workers were diligent workers who did that type of job for the many benefits I mentioned earlier.


Quite the irony!!!!
By soho324 on 3/13/2008 11:32:39 PM , Rating: 4
It seems that more and more people in the Western World are making a living by doing nothing. I'm referring to shareholders, investors, etc. It's no wonder that there's a shortage of educated professionals who's major was not economics or business but one that would involve actual effort on a daily basis.




Novel
By AlvinCool on 3/14/2008 8:32:14 AM , Rating: 2
Here is a novel approach for you

Bill wants to hire off the HB-1 visa for the best minds. But the reason they do is because higher education is built into their culture. They don't have to scrape and sign their souls away for a collage education. And since more people go to collage they find brighter people. What a novel concept. The same would work here except we educate the few that want to take the risk and unfortunatly they are not the brightest, just the ones with good grades or money.




RE: Novel
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/14/2008 9:09:53 AM , Rating: 2
If you listen to Gates' statement to Congress, he's trying to hire American educated foreign nationals. They can get the visas to learn here, but they can't get the visas to work here.


They took his job
By jhinoz on 3/13/2008 11:38:21 PM , Rating: 2
They took mah Juurb!! They took 'is Juurb!!

They took arhh Juurbs!!




RE: They took his job
By eye smite on 3/13/2008 11:49:32 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, you're an idiot.


RE: They took his job
By daftrok on 3/14/08, Rating: -1
Is There Really an IT Labor Shortage?
By ocyl on 3/14/2008 1:12:02 AM , Rating: 2
By NickF001 on 3/14/2008 1:37:58 PM , Rating: 2
to create the impression that the US educated tech force is too small and or too stupid, they want to be able to hire more H1B visa holders because they can pay these people less than they can americans.




Bill Gates' Non Sequitur!
By joseph1110 on 3/14/2008 4:52:02 PM , Rating: 2
How can any credibility be placed in Bill Gates' non sequitur therefor?!
He dropped out of Harvard; only just recently obtained an
honorary degree therefrom, I believe.
He just wants foreign Engineers & Scientists so he can pay
them typically half of what he would pay a bona fide American IT, et caetera, worker, I further believe!




Damn protectionists
By jhtrico1850 on 3/14/2008 6:36:49 PM , Rating: 2
If we can't find them here, it's better to bring some overseas then to let companies hire them anyways with the hassle abroad. At least here, they pay taxes and bring new perspectives and whatnot.




i dont get bill
By dare2savefreedom on 3/15/2008 12:36:39 PM , Rating: 2
I don't understand why he is doing this?
He likes to see himself on tv on his 72" tv at home?

He already paid off all these guys through campaign bonuses so why doesn't he just call a dinner in dc and talk to everyone - yeah I guess he wouldn't get his face on tv that way.

I also don't understand his logic:
We (meaning you and me) have to pay what little money we have so we can fix this problem, yet he is such a cool guy with all this money and wow he gives it all away and yet he has no money to fix this problem?

And we have some as$kissers here and they say wow he gave money to do this and that but if he's such a nice guy why doesn't he open an orphanage in washington and give kids clothing and a education.

The stuff like buying medicine from his friends company and then selling it in africa - wow helpful.

Donating computers to libraries with windows forever locked on them ( a easy and one time thing/expense) - wow helpful.

why doesn't he look up the poorest schools in america and give them money instead of the rich boy schools he donated to.

When I give money to help other people I don't form a foundation and them give it away I just give it away.




By radializer on 3/14/2008 7:56:54 PM , Rating: 1
Some thoughts on this;
The original intent of the H-1B visa program was to serve American employers who need high-tech workers when there is a void in the labor force. These visa holders would be temporary workers (the H-1B status expires in 6yrs) who would fill the jobs which U.S. citizens could not fill.

A lot of what Bill Gates has mentioned is accurate – in any average U.S. university, the number of foreign students in a graduate program in Computer Science/Engg or Electrical Engg are definitely over 50% ~ 60%. Based on the comments of people here, most folks have attributed this effect to multiple possible causes; such as poor K-12 education, lack of motivation and impetus among citizens to enter “difficult” fields, etc.

However, the problems with the H-1B program are not fully explained by these points alone – one has to also look into the subversion of this program by non-U.S. employers to attract labor forces that are then "on the bench" ready to be contracted out at lower compensation packages (benefits/wages). The contribution of such an issue to the big picture is that it skews the ratio of availability of H-1B visas for legitimate business purposes and, in turn, may make the shortage (that Bill Gates speaks of) seem larger than it actually is.

Some such cases of fraud are documented in a page on Sen. Grassley's (R-IA) site - makes interesting reading. He and Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) have been very vocal critics of the H-1B program – however, they seem to not oppose the program itself but want reforms to prevent abuse/misuse. Below is also a link to his response to Bill Gates’ testimony in the form of a letter.

http://grassley.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAc...

http://grassley.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAc...

Also, let’s get it clear on the taxation please;
All H-1B visa holders are considered as residents for taxation purposes and have to file the 1040 federal form (not the 1040NR form).

The only people who are allowed to work here and file in the non-resident (NR) category are F-1 visa and L-1 visa holders - students and transfer employees respectively.

The H-1B taxation includes paying Social Security and Medicare/FICA taxes on their income - which is truly something no "real" (non-fraudulent) H-1B visa holder can use since Social Security funds are only available to U.S. citizens. So, in a sense, they get somewhat shafted – since they are actually paying taxes to support federal schemes and services that are not even provided to them. I guess that’s the price to pay for wanting to work in a foreign country?

A lot of the comments in this list stating that H-1B workers never have to pay taxes are wrong – tax evasion is a crime for them as it is for any U.S. citizen. One can argue separately to the level of existing evasion – but my (naïve?) assumption is that it is probably no different in both demographics.

And to clarify a few things;
There are two varieties of H-1B workers - foreign nationals who have an advanced degree obtained in the U.S. and foreign nationals who are hired directly from a foreign country to work in the U.S. Even though there is no legal distinction between these two types, there is a world of difference in the implications of each type to the U.S. economy.

One argument is that those educated in the U.S. have already benefited from both a solid education and (in most cases in engineering at least) working on research projects paid for with taxpayer money (DARPA, ONR, NSF, etc) – so it would make sense to enable their stay in the U.S. so they can contribute to the system through the taxation of their income here rather than sending them to work elsewhere.

Possible solutions?
Enhancement of K-12 and basic college education and motivating kids to get into math/science??
Stricter enforcement of H-1B regulations at the employers’ end - which possibly means having more stringent conditions for an employer who is allowed to use the H-1B program to supplement their workforce (this was recommended last year in a reform bill)? Maybe even look at restricting the availability of H-1B workers to non-U.S. based companies?
Having a separate quota and cap system for H-1B workers educated in the U.S. vs those hired directly from foreign countries?

Bottomline
A two-fold approach is needed in reality … but until and unless most of these anomalies in the current system are addressed, quantifying Bill Gates' statement on the level of shortages and the projected H-1B cap increases becomes increasingly difficult.




Clearly...
By Hieyeck on 3/14/08, Rating: 0
Or hire a qualified American
By bigboxes on 3/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: Or hire a qualified American
By eye smite on 3/13/2008 11:48:08 PM , Rating: 1
Totally agree.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By BruceLeet on 3/13/2008 11:53:54 PM , Rating: 1
Did you read the article? Can you not comprehend what Bill Gates is saying?


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By mcmilljb on 3/14/2008 7:05:34 AM , Rating: 3
He's saying American citizens are too dumb even if they go to same college as the foreigners to get a MS job... That's what I get out of it. I will admit we are short on more experienced workers in the technology workforce(aging work population), but they are not willing to train people to get them to the level they need to be. You're only going to get so much training in college, but the rest has to be done in the workplace. Microsoft rather build cricket fields than train workers, that's what I can't comprehend.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By pugster on 3/14/2008 9:55:50 AM , Rating: 3
Throughout my career working in IT, I only know one IT person who actually left the workforce because he actually retires of old age. Many people over 50 in IT are usually forced out.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By eye smite on 3/14/2008 8:10:51 PM , Rating: 3
What a giant sack of steaming hot buffalo droppings you're all spreading. Do you really think we lack skilled, trained or knowledgeable people in America. No, we don't. Companies hire foreigners because they will do the work cheaper, not because they're beter or more intelligent or more skilled or trained. What type of clue train needs to come by for you all to get it. Why don't you all start flying the flag of your favorite country on your car since America obviously isn't it.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By Omega215D on 3/14/2008 12:00:51 AM , Rating: 2
What? They are hiring Americans... such as people from Mexico to do menial jobs and I guess they also hire Canadians too...

Wait... what continent are we on? =D


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By chick0n on 3/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: Or hire a qualified American
By Omega215D on 3/14/2008 1:15:54 AM , Rating: 2
My U.S. flag says made in China...

Besides I was just poking fun in my post above.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/14/2008 12:39:15 AM , Rating: 5
So rather than hire the best minds, hire just ones here in the U.S.?

Gates is talking about high end researchers and specialized engineers. This is not only a preemptive brain drain against other countries, but an advancement of American knowledge as well. He's not talking about getting visas to hire Mexicans to work at Carl's Jr.

quote:
Let's end this crap and make corporate America hire Americans. What a novel idea.

Then guess what, corporate America moves to somewhere where they can hire foreigners. Microsoft is already doing it in Vancover. Taiwan tried to impose something similar not too long ago, and a lot of the big guys moved over to Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai.

And Gates further states that the problem is systemic. Our educational system is horrible right now. I witness the horrors of inner city Chicago schools on a regular basis -- my friends are all math teachers. The entire CPS is a glorified day care, and that's not the only school system that got f**ked by "leave no child behind."

Higher education allows us to grab visas for foreign students to come here and learn, but not for them to stay here and work. Go figure that one out.


RE: Or hire a qualified American
By sinful on 3/14/2008 1:25:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And Gates further states that the problem is systemic. Our educational system is horrible right now.
...
Higher education allows us to grab visas for foreign students to come here and learn, but not for them to stay here and work.


Isn't that contradictory?
Our education system is horrible, and yet it somehow attracts the best and the brightest in the world to come here and learn?

We might have a terrible *lower* education system in the US, but our *higher* education system is one the best.

So, based on that, why aren't AMERICANS going through this higher education system? Hrm... Maybe there's a correlation between lower wages and lower enrollment in those fields??