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Blog: Science Big Engineering: The End of Greatness
Michael Asher (Blog) - May 29, 2007 12:41 PM
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Silently an era in U.S. history passes

I've recently returned from a trip through the Panama Canal.  Built by American engineers after a two failed French attempts (the remains of which can still be seen in Panama today), it has been called "The Eighth Wonder of the World."  Seeing it caused me to consider some of the great engineering projects built in the U.S. -- Hoover Dam, Mount Rushmore, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Interstate Highway System.  All awe-inspiring achievements.  And all built long ago. 

Such big engineering just isn't possible in the U.S. any longer.  New dams, bridges, canals, tidal power stations, even nuclear reactors or oil refineries -- the list goes on and on.  Should such a project even be proposed, a well-funded army of environmental activists quickly shuts it down, lest it disturb a bird's nest, or the home of a field mouse.  Masquerading as environmental concerns, in reality its simply blind worship of "Mother Earth" ... and the belief that any change man makes is by definition bad.  Evil, in fact.

Even on land already developed, ersatz environmentalism slows projects and adds enormously to the price tag.   Boston's "Big Dig" was dug almost entirely through reclaimed landfill, and even still required an 11 year billion-dollar environmental impact study, which included concerns over disrupted habitat for sewer rats.  New York's Freedom Tower being built to replace the WTC is enduring an expensive, multi-year environmental review, even though its site hasn't been home to a single plant or animal in well over a century.  And one of the U.S.'s most succesful civil engineering projects -- the massive system of drainage canals which converted Central/South Florida from dangerous, malarial swampland into one of the most vibrantly growing regions of the country -- has not only been halted, but today is slowly being rolled back.  Truth, my friends, is stranger than fiction.

Big engineering is still being done, just not in America.  As examples, I give you  Japan's Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge (nearly twice as long as the Golden Gate), Dubai's Burj Dubai or its astounding, artificial Palm Islands, China's Three Gorges Dam (five times the size of Hoover), India's $70 billon National Highway Development Project.  All exciting, inspiring engineering projects with enormous economic benefits.  And all of which could not possibly have been built in America's current political climate. 
Denying the U.S. such projects means real economic losses of course.  But it also carries a deeper, more pernicious impact.  People go where the action is.  How long will the world's most skilled firms and engineers continue to remain in a country that refuses to use their talents  

A century ago, similar factors caused Europe to lose its preeminent position to the USA.   What nation will hold that top position in the 21st Century?  I don't know ... but I'm sure it will be one not afraid of large engineering projects.

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Sewer Rats
By BMFPitt on 5/29/2007 2:01:04 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Boston's "Big Dig" was dug almost entirely through reclaimed landfill, and even still required an 11 year billion-dollar environmental impact study, which included concerns over disrupted habitat for sewer rats.
I don't know about you, but before digging up a landfill full of sewer rats, I'd like to know if it is going to cause them to flee straight towards my house.




RE: Sewer Rats
By grenableu on 5/29/2007 2:53:11 PM , Rating: 5
How about instead of spending $100 million studying the rats habitat, we just spent a few thousand on rat poison instead?


RE: Sewer Rats
By gramboh on 5/29/2007 3:13:07 PM , Rating: 4
How will that impact groundwater which could affect a ton of stuff? Environmental impact studies aren't just for crazy extremists wanting to stop progress, they are mostly to determine if there will be an impact on the ecosystem which could negatively affect nature and mankind alike. They are important and the author of this blog again goes way off the deep end on his editorials (just as those environmental extremists he accuses do on the other end of the spectrum).


RE: Sewer Rats
By James Holden on 5/29/2007 3:20:13 PM , Rating: 5
Do you really think those studies are worth billions of dollars though?

We build cities on garbage for christ's sake~ literally everything we do could require some kind of environmental study. I'm all for studying these things within reason, but as a contractor I've dealt with some of these types.

Believe it or not there are people that believe preserving the habitat of some swamp toads is more important than building a hospital. If you could show me that those toads are going to treat the burn victims from this ER, then yes I'd agree we should be spending more time investigating the environmental impact.

However, next time some kid dies in South Tampa because the ER was 20 miles further, YOU can be the one to explain to the parents that we had to save some toads first.


RE: Sewer Rats
By porkpie on 5/29/2007 3:25:43 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
However, next time some kid dies in South Tampa because the ER was 20 miles further, YOU can be the one to explain to the parents that we had to save some toads first
There are more than a few environmentalists who believe that kid dying is a good thing. The ones that claim killer viruses are actually good for the environment, by reducing the amount of people on the planet.


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sewer Rats
By James Holden on 5/30/2007 3:38:39 PM , Rating: 5
There's a reason why that guy gets moderated down into oblivion every time he posts.


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sewer Rats
By porkpie on 5/30/2007 3:59:54 PM , Rating: 1
What tripe are you spouting now? Because I failed to respond to some other guy in some other thread, that somehow "proves" I don't care about human life?

With logic like that, what tiny shred of credibility you had left just went flying out the window.


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sewer Rats
By BMFPitt on 5/29/2007 4:10:07 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
We build cities on garbage for christ's sake~ literally everything we do could require some kind of environmental study.
I built this hospital up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was swamp. Other HMOs said I was daft to build a hospital on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show 'em. It sank into the swamp. So, I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So, I built a third one. That burned down, fell over, THEN sank into the swamp, but the fourth one stayed up! And that's what is gonna treat burn victims.


RE: Sewer Rats
By novacthall on 5/29/2007 5:05:52 PM , Rating: 3
Nothing like a Monty Python adaptation to brighten your day.

You, sir, are a silly, silly person. And for that you have my gratitude.


RE: Sewer Rats
By cityplannerx on 5/29/2007 4:47:39 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
However, next time some kid dies in South Tampa because the ER was 20 miles further, YOU can be the one to explain to the parents that we had to save some toads first.


Why did you buy a house or move into a community with no hospital (i.e., outside 20 miles) in the first place? Why should biological resources (e.g., toad habitat) be destroyed because you insist on living in suburbia? I cannot begin to name the number of times I have dealt with people who are too short-sighted to analyze the community they move into. As an example, people consistently purchase homes within neighborhoods that border open spaces and retain the presumption that the open space will remain indefinitely when public documents clearly envision future development. Don't go blaming others for your decisions, or asking for quick fixes to your short-sightedness.

Back on subject concerning American engineering feats, how about those impenetrable levees protecting New Orleans. Engineers definitely showed Mother Nature who she was dealing with; Man can build anything, anywhere. I think the "environmental studies" of that levee could have used a few million more dollars (particularly a more thorough hydro-geological assessment report). I realize I am alone in this, but I for one support preparation of "environmental studies" because man has yet to prove the ability to relinquish selfish and greedious behaviors.


RE: Sewer Rats
By BMFPitt on 5/29/2007 5:00:35 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Back on subject concerning American engineering feats, how about those impenetrable levees protecting New Orleans. Engineers definitely showed Mother Nature who she was dealing with; Man can build anything, anywhere. I think the "environmental studies" of that levee could have used a few million more dollars
My understanding is that the engineering stated quite clearly that the levees would fail in a category 4 or higher hurricane. Studying only does you good if you do something about the results.


RE: Sewer Rats
By novacthall on 5/29/2007 5:15:40 PM , Rating: 4
Adding to your point, money was redirected away from levee repair in New Orleans for decades. Despite the advice of the engineers to beef the infrastructure, money was instead sunk into building the welfare state.

Throwing money at the studies did absolutely nothing.


RE: Sewer Rats
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 12:15:28 AM , Rating: 3
An identical situation which exists in South Florida today; if the levees just busted by, say, a Hurricane Charley that whips South Florida instead of Central Florida, thousands could die within hours. Lake Okeechobee is QUITE a bit larger than anything New Orleans faced. Well, except for the ocean, of course..

But hey, it'd do wonders for the Everglades!


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By grenableu on 5/29/2007 5:32:44 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Why should biological resources (e.g., toad habitat) be destroyed because you insist on living in suburbia?
Because, sir, men are more important than toads.


RE: Sewer Rats
By roadhog74 on 5/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Sewer Rats
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 10:29:36 PM , Rating: 3
And what do you think this country was started over? Free minds and free markets, as Reason magazine says.

There are countries that value touchy-feely social dependence on the state and each other, such as France. You could live there and enjoy the 20% unemployment among those in their 20s and 50% unemployment in the suburbs, with an overally national unemployment that hasn't been below 10% for possibly as long as you've been alive.

That's a trade off most people aren't willing to make. In fact.. with the election of Sarkozy, it seems to suggest your European ilk realized that even they arent willing to sacrifice the almighty dollar just for big liberal dreams.


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/31/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 6/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By jacarte8 on 5/30/2007 4:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
This is a fact.


RE: Sewer Rats
By James Holden on 5/29/2007 5:43:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Why did you buy a house or move into a community with no hospital (i.e., outside 20 miles) in the first place? Why should biological resources (e.g., toad habitat) be destroyed because you insist on living in suburbia? I cannot begin to name the number of times I have dealt with people who are too short-sighted to analyze the community they move into.

Chicago, Tampa, Miami, New Orleans (er, bad example) were all built on swamps, so we should desert those as well. LA and San Fransico are built on fault lines, Phoenix is in the middle of a fucking desert with no water.

Are you recommending we all move to ... Detroit?

Here's the problem -- when environmentalists stop something like a hospital or a public works project that was slated to be built there for decades. How is that fair to the residents who were promised by the government that a hospital would be built? Same for schools, fire departments, highways, etc.

quote:
Why should biological resources (e.g., toad habitat) be destroyed because you insist on living in suburbia

You know, a lot of people live in the suburbs because it's cheaper and they don't have any means to live elsewhere.

I feel bad for the toads or whatever, but when we're talking about a hospital or a school (not a Nordstroms), I think as a society we have to get our priorities in order.


RE: Sewer Rats
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 12:17:39 AM , Rating: 5
We shouldn't of left Africa, obviously. Who the hell were we to wander mindlessly in to Europe, chop down all the trees to build boats to then invade North America with capitalist expansion? Psh, and now you expect hospitals?! What, just because you're human you think you're special or something?

Environmentalists crack me up


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By James Holden on 5/30/2007 3:40:30 PM , Rating: 3
Hard thing to prove given that foraging in the wilderness sort of guarantees that you won't live past the age of 40 anyway. Certainly not old enough to develop any kind of cancer.


RE: Sewer Rats
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Sewer Rats
By jtesoro on 6/1/2007 11:57:11 PM , Rating: 3
So you're saying hospitals should be built first in the middle of nowhere? Only then should people move in, right? Same goes for schools, government offices and other infrastructure. They should be built BEFORE anyone is in there. And if this is done the toads would be saved too!


RE: Sewer Rats
By AMDJunkie on 6/2/2007 7:28:48 AM , Rating: 1
Very bad example.

South Tampa has no less than three hospitals that I can name off the top of my head: Tampa General on Davis Islands, Memorial on Swann Ave., and St. Joesephs right on Dr. Martin Luther King Blvd near the stadium. If anyone's going to die because the hospital was 20 miles away, it's not a South Tampa child, that's for sure.

Also, because of non-existant environmental planning during the earlier portion of the twentieth century, even after this rather extreme drought that Florida has been suffering through, this recent rainfall has already flooded several streets in South Tampa, notably Swann and MacDill avenues (Mind you, it took more than a sprinkle to do that this time around...). Perhaps people should consider that environmental studies are not ways to impede project progress for the benefit of species they perceive as worthless to the welfare of their lives, but rather, research into how contruction will impact the organisms that live in that unique ecosystem, including humans .

Also, South Tampa apparently has little restriction to development if the most recent overpriced housing boom (now bust) cash-ins are any indication. Areas that were deemed undesireable due to their relative proximity to a dirty air force base (love seeing the brown cloud of jet fuel smog over CentCom when fishing in the bay) are now hosting high-scale residences like "Westshore Yacht Club." Yecch.

And one final thing, for the author of this article this time: Great projects require great funding, almost unlimited funding in fact. Many times a "wonder" is created despite the prohibitive cost because of a sense of perhaps national pride or sheer necessity, rather than economic sensibilities (even if such investments are definitely for long-term investment). You'll have a civic board meeting full of irate residents protesting the rising taxes to support the bloating cost of building an uberdam or a private meagbuilding receiving public funding support, before they start waxing heartrending odes to a woodland creature. These criticisms are not ignored by people, especially politicians... Fringe environmentalists typically are.


RE: Sewer Rats
By roadhog74 on 5/30/2007 12:26:50 AM , Rating: 4
if Queensland had done an environmental study on the impact
of caine toads prior to introducing them.

$100 Million would have been a bargain.


RE: Sewer Rats
By Adahiyast on 5/30/2007 12:16:50 PM , Rating: 3
I would have nothing to play golf with then :(.

*Breaks out the petrol, a match and a golf club.*


RE: Sewer Rats
By novacthall on 5/30/2007 2:03:27 PM , Rating: 5
That's not on-topic. Your example is the introduction of an alien species to an ecosystem in order to offset the local predator-prey relationship.

The point being made in the article is that it seems more often than not that great engineering projects in this country are completely derailed because of massively expensive environmental impact analysis studies that prioritize insignificant animal habitats over human well-being.

There are excellent arguments to be made for good stewardship, but the eco-religion tends to take it too far.


RE: Sewer Rats
By Moocher on 5/31/2007 3:36:29 AM , Rating: 3
I agree that in some situations they do take it too far. But on the flip side of it, there are some areas, where it isn't taken far enough or is ignored completely.

I have worked in the O&G industry for a few years now, in both Canada and the US. I will say this, for all of the things that I have seen that have been so very detrimental to the environment, I have yet to see much of any response or interest by environmentalists.

Certainly I have heard about Greenpeace sitting out beside the offshore platforms, heckling the workers. But I have never seen anyone interested in that big diesel powered land rig, burning 25,000 liters of fuel a week, sitting just outside of a national park.

If you need an example of how a blind eye is turned, and you live in the southern states, go visit one of the private (not public) beaches along the Gulf. I did, and was pretty disgusted, and I work in the industry.


Some big projects in America
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/29/2007 2:26:14 PM , Rating: 5
I am also a civil works nut, and I've been keeping tabs on a few major projects in the U.S.

Chicago TARP: 50-year civil works plan to redo the drainage in metro Chicago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_and_Reservoir_...

TKM-WorldLink (kinda): US-Russia connection
http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7022

Chicago Spire: 2000 ft building proposed almost exactly where Frank Lloyd Wright's mile high Illinois Building was proposed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Spire

Las Vegas Tower: Would be the tallest building in the US if the Spire isn't completed. Same architects as the Sears Tower and Burj Dubai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas_Tower

SF Transbay: Half a dozen towers slated for downtown SF.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ch...

Further thoughts: It's interesting to see that Burj Dubai is being built by American (Chicago) architects that used The Illinois as inspiration.




RE: Some big projects in America
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/29/2007 6:13:16 PM , Rating: 5
I forgot to mention that the U.S. was an integral component in one of the largest public works projects ever -- the Internet. Since then, GPS probably ranks up there as the second greatest world-contribution in the last 30 years.

For those looking at what could be the next major U.S. megaproject, check out "Future Imagery Architecture" from Lockheed.


RE: Some big projects in America
By Lightning III on 5/30/2007 11:40:00 AM , Rating: 2
Yea but thats Darpa primarly for the military then converted to public use


RE: Some big projects in America
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/30/2007 1:04:14 PM , Rating: 4
Do you know what one of the main functions of the US highway system is?


RE: Some big projects in America
By masher2 (blog) on 5/30/2007 1:09:06 PM , Rating: 2
To allow for emergency landing of military aircraft. That's why 1 mile in every five must be perfectly straight. :)


RE: Some big projects in America
By Scorpion on 5/30/2007 6:27:52 PM , Rating: 2
That's a myth, btw.


RE: Some big projects in America
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/30/2007 6:40:12 PM , Rating: 3
Well the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 mandated that the highway and interstates were specifically to facilitate troop movement. Ike always championed it for national defense over anything else.

Sweden, if I recall correctly, uses their highway system as their primary airstrips.


RE: Some big projects in America
By Lightning III on 5/30/2007 9:23:20 PM , Rating: 2

The best example I know is Hawaii it has exactly two federal highways H1 which runs from schofield barracks home of Tropic Lightning the 25th Infantry Division to Hickam AFB and then on to Pearl Harbour and then H2 that runs from Kaneohe Marine Base across a mountain range and across an ancient Hawaian burial place to the afore mentioned Hickam AFB and onto well you should get the picture yes I'm that rarest of rares a liberal that belives in a strong defense and who has actually served so if were going for the Heinleinequse quotes only us that have served should be able to vote or run for elected office so Guess according to previous post's in this thread I hate myself but my opinion should really count

I kinda wandered off there didn't I

ooh well at least the part about the Highways was good


By Lightning III on 5/30/2007 9:28:56 PM , Rating: 2

ooops my Heinlein comes from Starship Troopers my favorite book

which by the way is just about an exact negative image of the movie

the book which is more about why men fight

and another of his utopian cultures


By Lightning III on 5/30/2007 9:39:43 PM , Rating: 2
dammit its three highways h1 really goes from the unground military installation now run by the national gaurd inside diamondhead all the way to barbers point NAS H2 branches off to schofield and H3 branches off

I knew I shouldn't post after 8 oclock


RE: Some big projects in America
By spwrozek on 5/29/2007 6:20:26 PM , Rating: 4
I don't see how it is is that interesting that Americans are involved with the Burj Dubai. UAE and specifically Dubai is one of, if not the leader, in most high rise structures being built in the world. You have to go where the money is. Last time I was in Chicago I hardly saw any high rise construction happening.

Also why has no one mentioned one of the biggest engineering projects in America right now????

The new Bay Bridge in San Fran. It is huge, looks awesome, it will be the largest self-anchored suspension bridge in the world, it is the most innovative bridge ever to deal with seismic activity (It can handle 1 yard of movement). There is a great article about it in the June 2007 issue of Popular Mechanics.

Another project not quite as big but the I-280 bridge in Toledo, OH is pretty impressive and it is just about finished. 9,000 ft cable stayed bridge and the center tower is supposed to light up in the night sky.
http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/i-2...


RE: Some big projects in America
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/29/2007 6:32:26 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Last time I was in Chicago I hardly saw any high rise construction happening.

On the contrary, Chicago is one of the only places supertall buildings are going up in the US!

Chicago Spire, Trump Tower, Mandarin Oriental Tower, Waterview Tower and the Aqua Tower. The smallest of those 5 is 80 stories and all are proposed completed by 2010.


RE: Some big projects in America
By spwrozek on 5/29/2007 7:49:57 PM , Rating: 6
It has been a while, so it is good to see that some things are being built that are more impressive then the average high rise building.

In comparison to Dubai though it isn't even close and why I think you see American companies over there. They currently have 328 high rises being built and 316 approved for construction.
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/?id=100485

Chicago is at 57 under construction, not to bad, and 37 approved.
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/?id=101030

NYC has the most in the states under construction at 125. 35 more approved.
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/bu/sk/?id=101028

Of course all the hire rise buildings going up are not so glamorous. Most being a typical office/apt building.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/29/2007 8:15:20 PM , Rating: 3
Awesome resource. You get a gold star for today.


By peternelson on 6/3/2007 12:32:13 AM , Rating: 3
"In comparison to Dubai though it isn't even close and why I think you see American companies over there. They currently have 328 high rises being built and 316 approved for construction."

Having been to Dubai and stayed at the Burj Al Arab nearby all this development and seen the offshore islands, I would like to contribute the reason that all this new construction development is going on (including by American engineers) is that I believe Dubai has ZERO property taxes, at least for the moment. Compared to UK or USA, that is a very big incentive to build, or relocate there.

It's just an example of how government policy like taxation can either catalyse or decelerate projects.


RE: Some big projects in America
By masher2 (blog) on 5/29/2007 7:07:02 PM , Rating: 3
> "why has no one mentioned one of the biggest engineering projects in America right now???? The new Bay Bridge in San Fran..."

I considered that a special case, as it's principally a replacement for the existing bridge, damaged in the '89 quake. I find it unlikely that California would have approved a wholly new bridge in this day and age.

> "it is the most innovative bridge ever to deal with seismic activity (It can handle 1 yard of movement)."

The Akashi Kaikyo bridge can handle 2 yards of movement, and is rated to handle an earthquake of 8.5 on the Richter scale.


RE: Some big projects in America
By spwrozek on 5/29/2007 7:21:35 PM , Rating: 2
I can see your position on that but I would still say that it is a big deal because it will be a come to San Fran to see it type of structure. Like Golden Gate, Hoover Dam, Mackinac, St. Louis Arch, etc...

I was unaware the Akashi Kaikyo could withstand such a beating very amazing.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Some big projects in America
By grenableu on 5/30/2007 12:12:24 PM , Rating: 4
Maybe the fact that, without the bridge, some 300,000 cars per day will have to travel nearly a hundred miles further, adding countless tons of additional pollution to the air and causing a loss of some 200 million man-hours of productivity per year. And if the span isn't replaced, another earthquake may take it out entirely, causing economic chaos and possibly severe loss of life.

Seriously, learn about your subjects before you knock them. You embarrass yourself a lot less that way.


RE: Some big projects in America
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 1:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
Economic efficiency isn't understood, or cared about, by this particular breed of environmentalist. Might as well have been talking in tongues!


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Some big projects in America
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 1:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
So much for your ignorance, because no, it wasn't more efficient; double-hulled tankers leak less in accidents, and leaking oil is not just leaking revenue but cannon fodder for half a century worth of lawsuits. Doubled-hull tankers therefore are indeed more economically efficient, and many ships today that serve much different roles are doubled-hull.

Nice shot, though. Best go back to spin-master school though, your l33t sk1llz are lacking.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 1:52:44 PM , Rating: 1
There are countless bridges and roads that can be justified in this manner and yet they are not built.

Of all the reasons anything gets built in a capitalistic world the good of mankind is never the main reason, we're only lucky if it ends up being a side effect.

The question still stands.


RE: Some big projects in America
By porkpie on 5/30/2007 2:17:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are countless bridges and roads that can be justified in this manner and yet they are not built.
Name one. With anywhere near the economic and pollution savings of the Bay Bridge, that is. Fact is, there aren't any. Not in the US at least. In any case, your entire argument is ass-backwards. Just because some other bridge may not be being built says nothing about the cost benefits of THIS bridge. Those benefits are real. And massive.

The "making of money" that you sneer at IS for the good of mankind. Go live in some society that makes very little money, and see how widespread poverty, disease, and other social problems are. See how bad environmental problems are in those countries...how polluted their air and water is, how unsafe their food is.

Money is simply an efficient method of managing resources. And resources, kiddo, are good for mankind.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Some big projects in America
By porkpie on 5/30/2007 3:09:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You really think when one skyscraper is the worlds tallest and then the next one beats the current winner by 10 feet that their are any tangible benefits
Tangible benefits besides the billion dollars or so the construction pours into the area, the long-term benefits of the extra commercial and/or residential space the building adds, the added tourism the world's largest building brings directly, plus the extra business brought in indirectly by it?

Are you serious with this, or just trying to make the enviro-whackos look bad again?

quote:
I'll just wait for the next bigger bridge to be built to answer that one
Couldn't name one, could you? So much for your "countless" examples.

quote:
But some people just insist on parroting 200+ year old libertarians
Sorry to confuse you with the facts, but there aren't any 200+ year old Libertarians. The party and even the philosophy itself isn't nearly that old.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 3:23:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Tangible benefits besides the billion dollars or so the construction pours into the area, the long-term benefits of the extra commercial and/or residential space the building adds, the added tourism the world's largest building brings directly, plus the extra business brought in indirectly by it?

Yes cities rationalize this stuff all the time to host the Olympics.
quote:
Couldn't name one, could you? So much for your "countless" examples.

All bridges are like that, size is irrelevent.
quote:
Sorry to confuse you with the facts, but there aren't any 200+ year old Libertarians. The party and even the philosophy itself isn't nearly that old.

And so your contribution is........?


RE: Some big projects in America
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 10:36:10 PM , Rating: 3
I agree, except the libertarian part. I'd say almost every leader in America in 1776 was a libertarian by modern standards, as well as many classical figures. Of course, don't believe they'd of called themselves that; at the time, wouldn't they of been called liberals?

Funny how liberalism has become Barry Goldwater-style Conservatism. :P (I hate calling it Reagan conservatism, he gets a bit much credit, just not everybody knows Goldwater)


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/31/07, Rating: -1
RE: Some big projects in America
By porkpie on 5/31/2007 9:31:33 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
"Is this hair splitting or plain old he doesn't know what he's talking about?"
Neither. A 200 year old Libertarian is the same as a 200 year old BMW convertible. They don't exist. You got it wrong, plain and simple.

quote:
One thing you can give credit to Reagan for. He was the first to make fun of the other party
I got a nice chuckle out of this. Look back at some of the statements made by the Federalists in the late 1700s. Or by the Democrats against the Whigs in the mid 1800s.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/31/07, Rating: -1
RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 6/4/2007 9:42:55 AM , Rating: 2
Well?


RE: Some big projects in America
By jtesoro on 6/2/2007 4:55:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of all the reasons anything gets built in a capitalistic world the good of mankind is never the main reason, we're only lucky if it ends up being a side effect.

So it seems that your beef is with Capitalism. Well, in Capitalism, people striving for their own self interest ends up benefiting society. It works. You against that? What's your alternative?


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 6/4/2007 10:39:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So it seems that your beef is with Capitalism. Well, in Capitalism, people striving for their own self interest ends up benefiting society. It works. You against that? What's your alternative?


As I started, taking responsibility for one's actions and ramifications.

quote:
people striving for their own self interest ends up benefiting society.


So tell us how Ken Lay accomplished this.


RE: Some big projects in America
By jtesoro on 6/8/2007 11:11:38 PM , Rating: 2
In every situation there will be exceptions (in Capitalism or whatever mechanism you are supporting). Overall, the statement still stands. The Capitalist system where people strive for their own self interest ends up benefiting society.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 9:49:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
a loss of some 200 million man-hours of productivity per year.

How much is it after everyone's been outsourced? Ooops, wrong country.


RE: Some big projects in America
By Ringold on 5/30/2007 10:41:16 PM , Rating: 2
America was founded on out-sourced low-skill labor jobs being transfered to America, which allowed them to retask labor to more productive endeavors. Likewise, America has sent lower skills jobs further westward for the last century, continuously, slowly retasking those displaced by structural unemployment. It's nothing new, it's the natural progression as economies grow, and while painful to those immediately effected the best thing that can be done is offer them some free college credit-hours.

But to frame it in historical and economic terms wouldn't allow the left (or the right! shame be upon them) to use it for their unfounded isolationist agendas. And to fully discuss it would make it really hard to make a single line wise ass post.


RE: Some big projects in America
By TheGreek on 5/31/2007 9:24:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
America was founded on out-sourced low-skill labor jobs being transfered to America, which allowed them to retask labor to more productive endeavors.


1. A lot of current outsourcing is not low skilled labor and that percentage is growing.

2. Those expensive skills we buy overseas add to the trade deficit far more quickly than the Nike assembly line jobs.

3. It is true that the high percentage of people who have no work ethic would not have worked the lower paying jobs, and outsourcing give them more time to devise more elaborate get rich quick schemes. I think their intended victims make be poorer.

4. What does a nation covered in casinos actually accomplish anyway? Oh, this could be some of the new great buildings Asher talked about. Copies of the great pyramids and such.


By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 9:53:24 AM , Rating: 2
In his usual fashion Asher fails to mention any, let alone all, of the detrimental problems and issues that caused by such projects. In his scientific world that can only be described as existing in a perfect vacuum, removed from all aspects of reality and pragmatism, he relies only the final outcome of the alleged "progress", disregarding anything that even the simplest people would take note of by sticking their heads out the window to see the world for what it is.

In a recent story TV it mentioned how polar bears are suffering from the effects of pesticides and PCBs. In the world of Asher their would be no scientific proof of a way such chemicals could reach this creature so then it must not be scientifically possible. But even if he did such scientific information would not be welcome, so you certainly would not read about it here. Of course there's no proof we have any need of the species so scientifically God created it obviously to merely stands in Man's way. Only someone who's omnipotent would behave this way.

You know education is about being able to see the possibilities, not using facts to bolster ignorance and stupidity. If Asher had a constructive or useful bone in his body he would fine a way for developers and nature to coexist instead simply mocking people who may not have their facts as straight or as "complete"(as far as he is concerned and not one inch more) as he does, but certainly won't cause anywhere near as much damage as he will.

The emperor is as naked as a jaybird.




By grenableu on 5/30/2007 10:16:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
In a recent story TV it mentioned how polar bears are suffering from the effects of pesticides and PCBs.
When you get your science from the television, your're going to be continually scared and confused. Of the 20 known populations of polar bears, two are in decline, two are growing, and the others are all stable.


By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 10:29:37 AM , Rating: 1
But when a scientist tells me MTBE is safe I am even more scared.


By grenableu on 5/30/2007 10:36:24 AM , Rating: 2
Because you know much more than the scientists do eh?


By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 10:41:38 AM , Rating: 1
No because I admit there's more to it than what I know. I don't pretend to know it all.

Only Asher can out-Asher Asher.

All of that was pretty obvious.


By James Holden on 5/30/2007 1:33:20 PM , Rating: 3
Regardless of whether or not you agree with him, (I often don't), the fact that he has a consistent answer for everything should be something to respect.

I've learned a lot of Masher, but I still think he's over the top. There isn't quite as much black and white in the world of environmentalism, in my opinion.

What I would love to see is projects that benefit both parties. I don't see how these can be mutually exclusive. I think I read from Kris's link that the Chicago Tunnel improved the wildlife in Lake Michigan and improved the city's drainage dramatically.


By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 2:08:50 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
the fact that he has a consistent answer for everything should be something to respect.


So does Rush Limbaugh and evangelists, matched by their ability to disregard.

quote:
What I would love to see is projects that benefit both parties.


And did he do this?


By James Holden on 5/30/2007 3:34:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And did he do this?

Did you?

I think the only person that did was Kris actually.


By TheGreek on 5/30/2007 3:43:19 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Did you?


Well once Asher stooped so low as to address me saying I offered no solutions and that meant my comments were not welcome. Now he comes along and does the same thing.

And I'm not the one trying to generate advertising money from what I say.

Last I remember the kid that yelled the emperor had no clothes on? He had no solution either. That didn't make him wrong.


By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 5/30/2007 4:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
I'd like to make it very clear that Masher's blog on DT is a privilege he earned by being one of the most prolific and respected posters on the DT forums -- he's not a DT employee even. We only display remnant ads on the blog section, and it's more of a community thing than a way to make money.

That being said, if you (or anyone else) can demonstrate the same level of participation and respect, I'd be happy to give you a blog right next to Masher's.