Print 155 comment(s) - last by Nimmist.. on Dec 12 at 1:04 PM

Continuing its banning ways, Microsoft is now banning players for exploit a glitch that's found in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.  (Source: YouTube)

Sony will not be banning PS3 gamers who use the glitch.  (Source: YouTube)
Console maker Microsoft claims bans are necessary to keep the gameplay fair, but should it ban gamers for the mistake of programmers?

You modified your Xbox 360 console?  Chances are you've been banned.  And to add to your dismay, your console's hard drive has been bricked, your console now corrupts saves, and you lost the privilege to use your media extender.  Tough luck, buy a new console says Microsoft.

But what if you just were playing a game you'd just purchased -- legally -- on your unmodified Xbox 360 and you were slapped with a ban for a programmer's mistake?  That's the exact scenario facing scores of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 gamers.

While exact numbers are unclear, Microsoft has another brewing storm on its hands after launching the latest round in its ongoing banfest. 

The mess began when players discovered the so-called "Javelin" exploit.  An error in the game allows you to detonate a grenade after you die in online play.  To do this you first have to switch back from and to the javelin weapon, hence the name.  Those who get close will be killed, upping the player's kill count.

Stephen Toulouse is the Director of Policy and Enforcement of Xbox Live has begun issuing 24 hour bans from Xbox Live to those who use the glitch.  He writes on his Twitter, "While [Infinity Ward] works on getting the MW2 glitch fixed, people we catch using it will recieve suspensions from LIVE. Play fair everyone."

Microsoft's Xbox Live Director, Larry Hryb (who goes by "Major Nelson" online), explains the banning process writing, "Keep in mind, this isn't just a ban on a particular game. This is a ban on the Xbox Live service as a whole, so you won't be able to go online at all during your ban. Initially, you may be banned for a day, a week, or depending on severity, permanently! Kiss that $50 goodbye."

Players are disgruntled about the bans to say the least.  After all, finding, and using glitches is a tried and true gaming tradition.  And Microsoft isn't just banning the glitchers from COD:MW2, it's banning them from all Xbox Live, including other games and updates.  Those banned are crying foul -- after all, they didn't use a cheating device, mod their console, pirate the game, or do any other of the typical laundry list of offenses.

Mr. Toulouse offers no sympathy.  He likens glitching the game to car theft.  He explains this perspective, stating, 'Wow, some of you think cheating a glitch is OK. Um. If I install my car stereo wrong and it disables my door locks, its not ok to STEAL MY CAR."

Sony, which also has COD:MW2 on it has said it will not be banning players who use the glitch on its servers.  Infinity Ward is reportedly working on a patch to fix the problem.  In the meantime, Xbox 360 gamers better be careful they're not stepping outside the tight box of rules that govern its closed system.

A video of the glitch in action can be found here.

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This is a non issue.
By PhatoseAlpha on 12/5/2009 2:56:29 AM , Rating: 5
It's in the X-box live Terms of service.

5. How You May Not Use the Service.
-exploit a bug, or make an unauthorized modification, to any software or data to gain unfair advantage in a game , contest, or promotion.

I mean really, you agree to a contract, then proceed to not actually read it, and then you breach're lucky it's only 24 hours. Sheesh.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Lerianis on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: This is a non issue.
By stubeck on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By TSS on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By FaaR on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By Alexstarfire on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: This is a non issue.
By jonmcc33 on 12/5/2009 5:26:15 PM , Rating: 4
I don't know. COD4 has Martyrdom as a perk. I can't stand it honestly.

RE: This is a non issue.
By bandstand124 on 12/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By MrBlastman on 12/7/2009 9:57:16 AM , Rating: 5
... And this is another reason why I do not game on a console and _only_ game on a PC online.

As a previous poster mentioned, many great glitches became standard issue over the years in PC gaming such as the Rocket Jump (best glitch ever, changed shooter history), strafe jump, etc. Nobody was banned for performing them--especially from ALL their games for a period of time.

Team Fortress 2 has had its share of glitches since it came out, none of which have resulted in bans, though a couple have gained some people server bans--such as the Sentry exploit that allowed building sentries underground/off map etc., however those are blatant abuses of the game. There have been other glitches like shooting rockets/stickies at the ceiling and them hurting people on the other side (their floor) or the quick weapon switch glitch where if you held down your fire button after shooting a rocket and hit quickswitch it would instantly switch. Those are more harmless glitches than anything and really added to the game... well, the rockets damage through the ceiling did make sentries a little useless.

Those were all bugs from the developers and nobody was banned as a result. Now, there were other things known as "hacks" which _did_ result in some mass server bans such as the Speedhack (such a nasty little exploit for those who remember it for TFC and Counterstrike), the aimbots in CS/QWTF or wallhacks. Those were all programs done by third parties to allow unfair advantages.

However, as bad as any bug or exploit may have been, 99% of the time the bans were only issued on individual servers, not system-wide--as it _should_ be. We do not need a governing body telling us what we should and should not do. We have that in real life, it is good to escape every once in a while. With PC gaming, I have just this. 360 gamers--I feel bad for you.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Nimmist on 12/12/2009 1:04:13 PM , Rating: 2
Exploits due to programming errors in MMOs DO cause PC gamers to get bans (usually just a temporary one of a few days). Play WAR I have seen numerous such bans. Some were terrain exploiting, some were glitches with the global cool down of spells. Some were even banned for lag caused glitches. For a while Knights of the Blazing Sun and Chosen were not able to twist their auras (perfectly acceptable) because lag would cause their auras to stack (not acceptable, but not controllable by the player). So on company controlled servers banning of PC players is indeed common.

Most online PC games use private servers, there is the difference. Most private servers have little to no regulation, relying on the game coding to determine what’s allowed. This may be changing for the PC world as companies start to require using their services to play online or require an online connection to even play single player. Gaming companies are becoming more restrictive with PC games using the piracy farce as an excuse. This, of course, has the opposite effect of driving more people to piracy to avoid the gaming companies’ restrictions.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Farva on 12/7/2009 12:33:27 AM , Rating: 1
Who was talking about real life?

RE: This is a non issue.
By TSS on 12/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: This is a non issue.
By KitKat06 on 12/7/2009 4:57:31 PM , Rating: 3
Man, hearing the word "Comprende" in a comment thread is absolutely annoying

RE: This is a non issue.
By eddieroolz on 12/6/2009 11:41:42 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that it blows up immediately after death, not 5 seconds?

Martyrdom is also 2.5 seconds, not 5.

RE: This is a non issue.
By rs1 on 12/5/2009 4:23:44 PM , Rating: 5
Not quite. If not everyone *can* do it, then it's an unfair advantage. But if everyone has the same ability to do it (as in, there is no special knowledge, expertise, hardware, or software required beyond what is already necessary to play the game itself), and some people just choose not to, then it's not unfair.

Until it gets patched out, it is a legitimate part of the game mechanics (the developers put it in there, and whether they meant to or not doesn't really matter once the product has shipped). Use it or don't, that's each player's choice. But don't choose not to use it, and then complain about the people who choose to do otherwise. That's really no different than deciding to never use tactical nukes and then calling everyone who does use them a cheater just because you've decided not to use them.

RE: This is a non issue.
By TheBaker on 12/6/2009 2:42:14 AM , Rating: 2
If not everyone does it, it gives people an unfair advantage.

No it doesn't. If only some people are CAPABLE of doing it, they have an unfair advantage. People that choose to run in a foot race rather than walk have an advantage, but it isn't an unfair advantage. The other people COULD run, they just choose not to. The other people in this game can use the exact same method to have the exact same advantage, they just choose not to.

Besides which, this glitch really doesn't even offer an advantage. In order for it to work, YOU HAVE TO DIE. This glitch is primarily being used to even the odds against the Double Shotgun Asshats out there, and I heartily approve.

RE: This is a non issue.
By JonnyDough on 12/6/2009 7:57:09 AM , Rating: 4
Who said life is fair anyway? It's a GAME, and MS is the referee. If you don't abide by their rules you don't play. Show sportsmanship kids, or go out and find a new hobby.

RE: This is a non issue.
By drycrust on 12/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By Reven on 12/5/2009 10:20:38 AM , Rating: 3
Microsoft has every right to ban these players, especially if they're short 1 or 2 day bans. Infinity Ward has stated that they view the 'move' as a glitch/bug, so dont do it! Players who are intentionally using the bug are glitching at others' detriment and make the game less fun as a whole.

RE: This is a non issue.
By jhb116 on 12/5/2009 11:17:38 AM , Rating: 5
Although I agree these types of things make the game not fun - I'm in the camp that if the unaltered code (no cheats) allows you to do something in the game, then it is not a cheat. It should be up to the game designers to patch the game if the glitch was unintentional.

RE: This is a non issue.
By mcnabney on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By borismkv on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: This is a non issue.
By DM0407 on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: This is a non issue.
By borismkv on 12/5/2009 9:02:23 PM , Rating: 1
If you're dumb enough to do something that has been declared a bug and it has been explicitly stated that doing so will get you banned, you deserve the results.

Cheating online is for the people who run the service to catch, and besides, all of these *do* affect other people and are very good analogies.

Seriously, you can't see how cheating on a test hurts other people? How about the people who studied their asses off for said test and fail it because too many people cheated and blew the curve? How about the companies that hire individuals because of their college scores and get screwed over because those individuals don't know a damn thing? How about, well, the whole freakin world economy that was blown to crap because of the people who cheated when handing out those mortgages and then repackaging them?

Cheating online, when it becomes rampant, diminishes the value of the entertainment, reduces people's willingness to utilize that method of entertainment, and ultimately results in a drastic decrease in revenue for the provider of that service. They provide the service, you pay for it. They set the rules. If you don't play by the rules, you lose the ability to use that service. That's life. If you don't like it, don't use the service. Read a damned book or just get up off your lazy, good for nothing ass and go the hell outside!

RE: This is a non issue.
By troysavary on 12/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By PrezWeezy on 12/7/2009 1:18:42 PM , Rating: 3
While I think banning on this particular issue may be a little dumb, I tend to think that the principal of it is great. I can't stand cheating. This is cheating, whether or not it's a bug in the game, a modified box, a modem hack, it's all cheating. The definition of cheating is "To violate rules deliberately, as in a game." That means that now that it has been announced as a bug it is cheating. I enjoy playing Xbox Live and it is very frustrating when people try to take advantage of flaws or glitches. No one has the ability to govern themselves anymore. Everyone is concerned with "me." The fact that they ban them for 24 hours doesn't bother me at all. So they can't play for a day, "whoooooooooo cares?"

RE: This is a non issue.
By Uvaman44 on 12/5/2009 10:24:33 AM , Rating: 5
To me it is, this is a minor and patchable problem, that's one, and two I tend to hate the fact that you pay for a service, only to be completely controlled and spied by the vendor, and on top of it basically be threatened.

With each passing year, as I have gotten older, I have been more and more alienated from all this techie stuff I used to be so into it, be it cellphone, video games, and MP3s.

I hardly recognize myself, I used to be so into it, but now all this money for crappy ringtones that you cant even store or move... last time I tried to work on a cellphone-PC connection I had to 'crack' it to get proper access, and it didnt really work. Now my cellphone 'just dials', I hardly even store numbers, in the service I have (granted I think its just this service, net10) the SIM card cant be changed.
There was a time were it was easy to turn a cellphone into a modem to do dialup.. when they had their own software that helped too.. nope not anymore now its custom verizon crap, I don't know about the rest such as ATT, sprint.

Ah the hell with it as platforms get more closed and closed its just not fun, and I don't mean the 'get the free stuff', you could do more... now every thing is closed, or anything you do can get you in jail.

Screw it, I will keep my money and buy a plant.

RE: This is a non issue.
By wushuktl on 12/7/2009 8:13:48 AM , Rating: 3
I understand the "*I* paid for it, so give me what *I* want" but there are also a ton of people who pay Microsoft for a gaming service that allows hassle free connections and ensures fair gameplay. So you can argue that Microsoft allowing activity like this glitch would be ripping off all of those people. And Microsoft could argue that those types of paying customers are in the majority so Microsoft should be looking out for them, not the smaller glitch finding/exploiting crowd.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Sanity on 12/5/2009 10:30:26 AM , Rating: 5
So how come all those little bastards that used to "superbounce" in Microsoft's baby Halo 2 never got banned? There have been so many bugs and glitches in xbox live games it's ridiculous. This ban is ridiculous. I play MW2, and haven’t seen anyone using this yet. There was a point in H2 where in 7 out of 10 games there was some little ****er bouncing. Why start banning now when a relatively few amount of people are using the glitch? Just fix the problem.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Johnmcl7 on 12/7/2009 6:18:16 PM , Rating: 2
Did you report the Halo 2 players? I tended to find that if you reported cheaters and ensured the rest of your team/clan did, MS would kick them off Live.

It makes more sense to start banning people now when use is limited to keep it contained rather than wait for the patch as up to that point use is going to be more widespread.

It's only a 24 hour ban and I'm glad to see them doing this as I find it extremely annoying when people are taking advantage of glitches especially when it becomes widespread.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Reclaimer77 on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By Alexstarfire on 12/5/2009 1:09:31 PM , Rating: 4
I see this as the same way there are loopholes in the legal system. Difference is you get banned for doing one while the other pretty much all the "good" people use to get out of punishment. I'm sorry, but the latter is far worse than the former and no one gets punished for doing it. In fact, it's almost encouraged. And they are pretty much the exact same concepts.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Obujuwami on 12/5/2009 1:50:43 PM , Rating: 5
I would like to point out that Blizzard does this kinda stuff regularly. After Patch 3.1 was released for WoW, a number of smart mages learned they could steal certain buffs from bosses that made them superhuman. While this was an obvious programming error on Blizz, they decided to perma-ban the accounts of all those who had done this.

Was it fair? No. They found a way to do something that was unintentional, but worked. I doubt it was a glitch and it was probability a developer "oops" that made the last boss in Ulduar much easier. Its even more likely that it was on the PTR and was supposed to be removed for the actual release version, but everyone missed it.

Did Blizzard eventually give back those accounts? Yes, but only after being petitioned and did so begrudgingly. Microsoft will do the same thing, patch the game, and all will be forgiven. Then the console kids can work on the next glitch to exploit.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Nik00117 on 12/5/2009 2:33:23 PM , Rating: 2
If we had dedicated servers this would be a non-issue.

Server admins would simply ban the offending players from the respective server. Servers who don't care would allow it to go on. See the beauty of Dedi Servers you fucking ass hats at IW and console morons.

RE: This is a non issue.
By chruschef on 12/5/2009 7:31:32 PM , Rating: 3
you seemed to have missed the point, microsoft is banning players on microsoft's xbox live. it has absolutely no control over P2P networks for PCs, and xbox is clearly never going to have dedicated servers.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Alexvrb on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: This is a non issue.
By ImSpartacus on 12/6/2009 11:08:11 AM , Rating: 4
I agree. Maybe 6-12 hours would've been better for first timers, but this still does not put you out of the game for too long. It simply teaches players a lesson, which is what MS should use bans to accomplish.

This should be called a "tempa-ban" or "24-hour ban."

"Ban" is much to ambiguous. With the recent Live-bans that occurred before MW2's release, everyone sees "ban" and thinks the worst. Shame on you DT.

RE: This is a non issue.
By alifbaa on 12/5/2009 5:09:21 PM , Rating: 2
I think it's more a question of proportionality. Clearly, Microsoft has the right to ban any user they feel is abusing their system.

The question here is whether it's right for Microsoft to ban users who have found an unintended way to gain minor advantage in a game. No one, especially not Microsoft, is losing anything of real value in the process yet customers are losing the right to use a service they paid for.

If it's really that big of a problem, the programmers should release a patch to fix the bug. Microsoft's response thus far seems draconian.

RE: This is a non issue.
By PhatoseAlpha on 12/5/2009 5:57:40 PM , Rating: 3
IW is most definitely working on a patch for the game. However, the reality is console patches have a fairly rigorous certification procedure they go through - most to be sure they won't break the system, x-box live, ect. This means that unlike in the PC world, IW has to make the patch, test the patch, and then get it through review. The last one is especially time consuming.

This means that even if IW had a patch to fix this ready in five minutes, it would take a week minimum to get it through certification before it can be deployed. In the meantime, the cheat runs rampant.

I'm of the opinion this move was probably requested by IW - to deal with the no doubt, very unhappy community in the interim while they get the patch run through certification.

As for whether or not anyone loses something of value - if no one loses by people cheating, then why ban it in the first place? I suspect you know as well as I that cheating infringes on other peoples enjoyment.

RE: This is a non issue.
By paperfist on 12/6/2009 9:44:09 AM , Rating: 3
The United States antitrust laws state:

1. Anti-trust laws prohibit agreements in restraint of trade, monopolization and attempted monopolization, anticompetitive mergers and tie-in schemes, and, in some circumstances, price discrimination in the sale of commodities.

Microsoft violates that all the time, gets caught and does it again. Why can't they play fair? Sheesh!

Maybe the DoJ should start banning sales of all their products for 24 hours initially, then for a week if they violate them again. Keep doing it? Permaban!

RE: This is a non issue.
By Franky29x on 12/7/2009 1:05:12 AM , Rating: 2
So does that mean that everyone who uses an infinite combo in Marvel vs Capcom 2 is going to get banned. Those are bugs in the game. There are glitches in the game also that Capcom didn't fix and they've been in for over ten years and people don't get banned over that and Capcom says that they are glitches. M$ needs to be fair across the board if they are going to ban people for doing things that the game allows them to do.

RE: This is a non issue.
By MozeeToby on 12/7/2009 11:53:29 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe it's in agreement with the TOS but it's still pretty uncool. Look at it this way: does anyone else remember the original Tribes game?

When it first came out a few people figured out how to exploit a bug to 'ski' around the map (jump repeatedly while going downhill and keep jumping, you're never in contact with the ground to slow you down). In the beginning it was a massively unfair advantage, allowing players in the know to move around the maps in a fraction the time as other players; but, eventually, it was incorporated into the game (and it's sequels) because it added so much to the gameplay. I'm not saying that is the case here, but if they had punished players for exploiting the skiing bug then Tribes would not be the same game it is today.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Kyanzes on 12/7/2009 12:54:32 PM , Rating: 2
I think we all know that 99% of people playing on the BOX press the ACCEPT button so fast that the bottom part of the EULA window cannot even render. That notwithstanding, the players have agreed to abide by the rules. Tough luck.

RE: This is a non issue.
By Major HooHaa on 12/10/2009 6:23:38 AM , Rating: 2
I agree that this is a non-issue, there are often glitches in on-line games.

Remember "Dolphin Diving" in Battlefield 2? Only once did I find a whole squad doing formation Dolphin Diving (repeatedly jumping and then lying down in mid-air, in order to gain the accuracy bonus of lying down) and so I switched server.

If someone is using exploits and being an idiot, then there should be facilities to kick that person from the game. There doesn't have to be an arbitrary banning from on-high.

As for modifying games, there is a whole creative community who do that on their P.C's and the P.C. itself can be endlessly modified quite legitimately.

Also, Microsoft, getting around the regional lockout on a console, is a tradition that goes back at least as far as the 16-bit consoles of the early 90's. It is sometimes the only way to play certain games released for a console. Thereby boosting worldwide sales of games.

RE: This is a non issue.
By robinthakur on 12/11/2009 6:27:04 AM , Rating: 2
True, but you could argue that its far too easy to be held in breach of the contract for an accidental infraction and that the contract is overly restrictive on what it does and doesn't allow.

The point of contention is whether its a bug or not, so its not a reading issue, its one of interpretation. Whatever, banning people from a service they pay for with no refund is pretty low and I'm fairly confident that most courts would rule in the plaintiff's favour if anyone decided this behaviour was legally actionable. Microsoft's definition of what's a bug and what's a feature has historically not been the most clear-cut...

Stupid glitch, stupid players
By eddieroolz on 12/5/2009 2:08:21 AM , Rating: 4
I think the offenders deserve every punishment bestowed upon them. Glitching may be a tried and true tradition, but that doesn't mean it's accepted online nor encouraged. In fact, people should know that glitching = ban. That's how it was like in every single game, and it will continue to be.

Glitching may be a programmer's fault but guess what, it gives a player an unfair advantage over others. With this glitch, you denote a Javelin-sized explosion - no skills necessary. Just run up to a crowded section and boom, you get instant kills without any skill. That's not fair for others who bought the game legally, and play legally/fairly.

My friend who owns MW2 on 360 stopped playing for now because this glitch killed his K/D. Everyone should play fair and square. That's why dedicated servers ban the use of hacks and exploits - this is no different in my opinion.

RE: Stupid glitch, stupid players
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 6:55:13 AM , Rating: 4
it gives a player an unfair advantage over others.

How is it unfair when everyone can do it.

What is really wrong is how long they are taking to patch this. After these games publishers release the game it can take months ( even years BF2 ) for them to patch any kind of problems that arise.

RE: Stupid glitch, stupid players
By Lerianis on 12/5/2009 8:52:57 AM , Rating: 1
Hit the nail on the head with the time period that it is taking to patch this... there should have been a patch out for this flaw after 1 day.

It might be, as much as people HATE to think that.... a INTENTIONAL flaw that some programmer put in on purpose, and that is why it is taking so long to patch this problem.

RE: Stupid glitch, stupid players
By eddieroolz on 12/6/2009 11:06:34 PM , Rating: 3
A quick lesson in math: it isn't 100% of the population, or everyone, if my friend is not doing it and is irritated at the jerks doing it.

Another commentor said it best: glitching screws up the original intended mechanics of the game. The reason why it's called "glitching" is because it shouldn't be in the game and it definitely shouldn't be performed by players, hence the name "Glitching" in the first place.

Either way, DailyTech seems to be against any form of intervention to make gaming better for those who abide by the rules, so I should stop talking, because all I'll receive is downrating anyway.

By rdeegvainl on 12/7/2009 11:54:01 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, way to fly off the handle and fail at reading comprehension. A quick lesson: just cause your friend does not do it, does not mean he cannot if he chose.

RE: Stupid glitch, stupid players
By duckbill on 12/8/2009 1:35:44 PM , Rating: 2
"Anyone can do it" is not a rational excuse. "Anyone" can take steroids, but it is (rightfully) not seen as legitimate outside of sports and banned inside of pro-sports. It is CHEATING -- using an exploit to gain an advantage. Governing what is cheating by "if anyone can do it, it's OK" leaves way too much leeway. You could rationalize just about anything in life with that nonsense.

In MW2 (and other games like it), teammates tend to move in packs. You die to trigger this exploit, but you'll atleast take you killer with you at close to medium range. Very likely, multiples of his teammates as well. It can also trigger other explosions, killing more, destroying enemy defenses. The game was not meant to be played in this manner, and it is the manifestation of an error or (less likely) malicious code.

Sportsmanship, maturity, masculinity...even a basic level of anyone of those attributes should stop you from using glitches/exploits. It corrodes the game experience for the non-douchebag players online. When I was was a kid, it was the punk who hits the reset button on the Nintendo/SEGA when he's losing -- now it's glitchers/ethernet cord pullers/etc. That type of behavior is unbecoming of a man...or at the very least, a non-douchebag.

By FranklinRoosevelt on 12/5/2009 2:24:46 AM , Rating: 4
Can someone explain this analogy to me? It seems really quite spurious.

So, presumably installing the car stereo wrong and the doors remaining unlocked is supposed to be analogous to the code being unfortunately written and the exploit being available. It's not clear that stealing a car is analogous to using an exploit. In the first place, the theft of a car victimizes the person who foolishly installed his stereo incorrectly. In using an exploit, it's not at all clear that the person at fault is the person being victimized. Additionally, calling someone who gets killed in a video game a 'victim' seems like a slap in the face to anyone who's ever been raped, murdered, robbed, burgled, bitten by a shark, etc. etc. Secondly, stealing is, ceteris paribus, both a crime and immoral. But using an exploit isn't reasonably conceived of as either a crime or a moral transgression. So just how the hell are the two supposed to be analogous?

RE: Likening using a glitch to stealing a car???
By Ages120 on 12/5/2009 4:15:44 AM , Rating: 5
I do love how glitching, which isn't even that serious and will be fixed, in a game gets put on the same level of a felony.

Keeping you from going onto live completely because of a glitch in one game seems like giant over kill since they are screwing with the profits of other companies because of one developers problem.

good job Sony for not freaking the hell out

By mindless1 on 12/6/2009 8:24:49 AM , Rating: 1
It doesn't, because those are just words. Would a thief really care enough to stop if you said "you are a thief"? No, it's the repercussions which in this case was a mere 24 hour ban.

Pretty trivial isn't it, if someone can't live for 24 hours without their game maybe they need to pick up some new hobbies.

By TSS on 12/5/2009 1:29:39 PM , Rating: 3
If I install my car stereo wrong and it disables my door locks, its not ok to STEAL MY CAR.

The part that's lacking is that in the above example, you'd still need a key to turn the ignition. Avoiding using that key would require "hacking" the lock. While a glitch requires no such hacking.

What would be more accurate is if there was a glitch that let you enter and start his car without a key, it still would not be ok to steal it. But this still has the loss of property that a game glitch does not have.

So what comes closer is "If i bought a mustang but on mixup i got and had to drive a prius for 2 weeks, it would still not be ok to make fun of me". As it involves a glitch and minor discomfort to you, with somebody else aggrivating that discomfort.

In this example though i'm not so sure it would be morally correct to not-make fun of such a person. If that car dealer is known to mess up orders, why did you buy there in the first place?

Why can't they just find another dedicated server with an admin present who bans people for using the exploit? oh wait....

What part of this do people not understand???
By NA1NSXR on 12/5/2009 2:53:43 AM , Rating: 5
"Play fair everyone."

By VultureTX on 12/5/2009 10:35:18 AM , Rating: 3
In the Game Lobby before matches , we always tell people about the 24hr ban. And that suiciding on choke points with a javelin will get you reported. IW and MS have publicly stated this.

Now understand COD:MW2 has lots of INFORMED clans, that know about this glitch and a bunch of others. So when they do it in public , they know the risks of banning. So hell yes they are knowingly messing up the game for others and that is why complaints are filed against whole clans in a match.

/yes the game needed an open beta test to find these exploits and to tune the game. When you see a guy on his 2nd playthough(prestige) still using a Tactical Knife/Marathon/Lightweight/Commando/ you know there is something unbalanced for using a setup that is earned in the first hours of playing.

RE: What part of this do people not understand???
By Lerianis on 12/6/09, Rating: 0
By mindless1 on 12/6/2009 8:34:47 AM , Rating: 2
It does become unfair because those who come there to play the game the way it was intended to be played cannot do so fairly.

There is a difference between using an intended feature/weapon and using a glitch that is not consistent with the intended abilities of the players.

Similarly, everyone could take steroids to win at sports, but is it fair if only some do? The consensus seems to think the answer is "no" and for those who don't think it is "no", let them go find a group to compete with that think the answer is "yes", so as not to interfere with the rest.

modern warfare
By itzmec on 12/5/2009 12:18:55 PM , Rating: 3
in real life, isnt this glitch used in the middle east by the taliban and al qaida? if so, shouldn't the gamer adapt to the environment, as did the american soldier?

RE: modern warfare
By chruschef on 12/5/2009 12:33:21 PM , Rating: 3
there's a perk for that actually ...

RE: modern warfare
By psychobriggsy on 12/7/2009 1:15:52 PM , Rating: 3
The PS3 version gets you the "72 Virgins in Heaven Trophy" for utilising this glitch successfully.

Gotta admit it, glad I never bought a 360. Microsoft are dictatorial indeed...

hmmm lots of glitchers on DailyTech...
By wetwareinterface on 12/6/2009 4:15:37 AM , Rating: 4
simply browsing the comments and looking at the ratings shows that a lot of folks on DailyTech don't understand what happens when someone glitches in a game...

it destroys the original gameplay mechanic.
argue all you want but the simple truth is if this went unpunished and was left in the game forever the game would then become "COD MW 2 Run for the choke point and die on purpose". remember quake, it was the most boring game after people figured out about the rocket jump. the whole series simply should have been called "Race for the Rocket Launcher" as far as online play was concerned.

glitches like this destroy the gameplay and alter it into a bore fest as everyone then does the stupid glitch instead of actually trying to play the game. counter strike source ,is a prime example. when it was discovered that on certain maps some spots were glitchable to get above into the skybox those maps then simply became "hunt the campers in the sky" maps. kinda ruins it for the team that had an objective and 1/2 their team isn't showing up to defend the bombsite cause their sky camping. ruins it for the other side too as it becomes extremely boring planting a bomb with no opposition. makes the game "run around and hold down the use key and wait 30 seconds". real fun that was.

if you don't understand why the glitch is being hammered on by microsoft and xbox live simply look at all the boredom all other game glitches produce for those that actually want to play the game they paid for but can't because all the little kids are busy glitching instead of actually playing.

RE: hmmm lots of glitchers on DailyTech...
By Alexstarfire on 12/6/2009 10:27:09 AM , Rating: 2
Ok, no one is saying the glitch shouldn't be fixed. We're simply saying that you shouldn't ban people from the whole XBL service just because of it. From the game, perfectly acceptable, but that's not what they are doing. It's much like them banning you simply from having a modded console. They ban you from the XBL service forever and also make it pretty much useless as a console since your saves become corrupt and you can't use media extender. They are just taking it too far. People just keep arguing about the wrong points.

By Reclaimer77 on 12/6/2009 7:30:42 PM , Rating: 3
Ok, no one is saying the glitch shouldn't be fixed. We're simply saying that you shouldn't ban people from the whole XBL service just because of it.

We know that's what you're saying, and you're wrong. It's cheating, and cheaters get punished when they are caught. That's the way the world is supposed to work, remember ?

And stop saying "Ban", it's a 24 hour punishment. Big freaking deal, go outside or something fatty.

Just the Beginning - Long Live PC Gaming
By callofduty1000 on 12/5/2009 9:24:38 AM , Rating: 4
Consoles = control, slow progress, games designed for a low precision controller; PCs = freedom, innovation, sophisticated and cutting edge gaming, high precision mouse and keyboard. You choose your platform. Eventually, gamers will grow tired of having their entire gaming world held hostage over the issue of the day. Additionally, PC gamers are required to learn things that can be useful one day, like how to use a PC. Yes, even gamers have to get a job one day. Typically, 1 million hours as a console gamer doesn't do much for the bank account or help you through college. I expect the gaming pendulum to slowing head back in the direction of PC gaming, as more and more gamers grasp the trap that is console gaming.

RE: Just the Beginning - Long Live PC Gaming
By R3T4rd on 12/7/2009 4:59:49 AM , Rating: 2

Exactly. FPS should never be played with a controller. If Console people playing COD:MW2 were to join a Server with PC People playing COD:MW2, the PC people would run circles around the console people and just use a knife to kill them. I just don't get FPS on consoles???? Really??? True OG Gamers who started playing FPS since Doom, Quake, to Half-Life, to UT, will agree.

Imagine WOW...on controllers - FTW Fail!

By rdeegvainl on 12/7/2009 12:02:16 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, there is a hell of a lot more control and precision with PC gaming, but another way to look at it is this, consoles are about a level playing field. If they implemented mouse and keyboard controls, and allowed dedicated servers, the similar playing experience would make for a more skill based competition instead of who's got the biggest GPU.
I started playing FPS's at doom quke half life and Unreal so please don't attempt to speak for everyone.

iBoX - Microsoft using Apple like rules
By shikigamild on 12/5/2009 2:59:39 AM , Rating: 2
It's ironic, Microsoft is now starting to use Apple like absolute rules with their Xbox live services.
And now they are even using the typical "Copying something is like stealing a car" fallacy, replacing copying with using glitches.

Good way to go Microsoft, when are you going to start to ban people for owning noobs and make them cry?

By PhatoseAlpha on 12/5/2009 3:03:11 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yes, no cheating. Very draconian of them.

Inflammatory Headline? Check.
By Tegeril on 12/5/2009 7:44:14 PM , Rating: 2
Misleading context? Check.
Requires reading more than half the article to understand the truth in the story? Check.

Must be a Jason Mick Dailytech story.

These are 24 hour suspensions from Live only, having almost nothing at all in common with the service level bans, console modifications, or the word "ban."

Please stop the FUD. Please.

RE: Inflammatory Headline? Check.
By DM0407 on 12/6/2009 2:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
Suspension of Service

By rcc on 12/7/2009 2:22:54 PM , Rating: 2
LOL, this tone and arguments in this discussion could be moved in it's entirety to an article on copying/pirating music/movies, etc. Just change a couple key words and it's all set.

Funny stuff.

By rcc on 12/7/2009 2:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
sorry, "this" should have been "the"

By dxf2891 on 12/7/2009 4:43:17 PM , Rating: 2
I understand banning someone in a ranked game, but a private invite only game. I'm a Marine Corps veteran and I play hardcore, balls to the walls, anything goes COD:MW2. If we're playing a private game and we want to use this glitch, how is that anyones business? And if we agree ahead of time that it is acceptable, how is it any different than specials and power ups? Damn, talk about big brother!!!

RE: Justification....
By Leper Messiah on 12/7/2009 5:22:29 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think microsoft has any other way of filtering for the use of this bug unless someone reports them for using it. Considering how many people are playing MW2 on xblive, it would be probably too resource intensive to be reviewing each and every single game for the use of this glitch, and then going back and banning everyone who used it. So as long as no one reports you using it, you should be OK.

Don't quote me on that though, it just seems the most logical way to do it.

How do you steal a car?
By Sylar on 12/5/2009 7:44:15 AM , Rating: 3
Just because the door is unlocked? Does that not require a hack per se? Horrible analogy.

By Motoman on 12/5/2009 10:46:47 AM , Rating: 3
...I don't have an X-Box 360, and I'm quite happy about that fact. And, I'm never going to buy an X-Box 360, and I'm even happier about that.

Stupid, but predictable.
By tjr508 on 12/5/2009 11:11:38 AM , Rating: 2
I rarely game any more, but this is pretty standard now a days. There has been a major shift in the last decade towards noob-friendly play. Long gone are the games where you actually had to learn a few things before you could even compete at around a 1:50 K/D.

I remember back in the days, if a good player saw someone do something that they couldn't do, their reaction was "That's awesome man, how did you do that?" Then, the player would show the other player and if it was useful, the player would spend a little time to learn it.

If the same thing happens in a modern game, you hear a lot of QQ.

RE: Stupid, but predictable.
By SavagePotato on 12/5/2009 3:51:16 PM , Rating: 1
There has been a major shift toward wanting to make a profit with games.

World of warcraft set the bar for the industry on what you can do when you make your game accessable to a broader audience. In point of fact, make a whole lot of money.

Exploiting a glitch in the game is not the same as learning to do a rocketjump.

MS Hater Post
By ScotterQX6700 on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: MS Hater Post
By meepstone on 12/5/2009 12:30:22 PM , Rating: 3
This is obviously a Xbox fanboy or Sony hater post.

For one: The title of this post could of read: Banfest: My Useless Interpretations of this Article.

I laughed when I saw this useless point making fun of an article title when in fact it is true.

Ban them!
By JohofNovi on 12/5/2009 12:52:22 PM , Rating: 3
Glitch or not, it's cheating and you get what you deserve IMHO. Just because it is possible to do it doesn't make it right. If I'm playing Basketball and I elbow a defender in the face when the ref isn't looking I fully expect the guy will retaliate. There are consequences to one's actions. In the gaming world a Ban is the consequence. If you cheat, you are a tool. End of story.

By NullSubroutine on 12/5/2009 1:03:48 AM , Rating: 2
'Wow, some of you think cheating a glitch is OK. Um. If I install my car stereo wrong and it disables my door locks, its not ok to STEAL MY CAR."

First off, this has to be the stupidest since my roomates step-sisters cousin 4th removed said Hitler was like Gandhi because it touched so many peoples lives.

Secondly, WHAT? How is theft of physical property, which can be a severe felony depending on the value of the vehicle, anything close to exploding on screen to get a few extra kills near your body? Anyone? Besides the fact dead bodies in war are often booby trapped, I am sure that what is going on here will result in a lawsuit.

Here is an analogy for Mr. XBox live, you go in to a food place, look at the menu, order your food, then pay for it, and before you eat it (or in the middle of it) the manager comes up to you, says you are eating your food wrong, takes your food, and kicks you out the establishment and gives you no refund. Oh right, that is theft. It doesn't matter if the sign on the front door says "We get to do anything we want and when you enter you agree to this.", court cases have routinely said EULA terms are not legally binding 90% of the time.

Lastly, servers you CoDMW2 players right, you gave your money to a bunch of scam artists and got scammed once again. Don't act surprised when the shaft gets placed without lube.

Bricked HDD?
By bob4432 on 12/5/2009 1:13:13 AM , Rating: 2
well the bricked hdd can be fixed - just search xbox-scene for a fix for that and enjoy the full functionality of the hdd bricking done by ms - no more game save corruption either.

ms stepping on everyone for banning gamers when a company f*cks up, plus take a look at the pc version of cod:mw2 - complete joke as the multiplayer on it was hacked in a couple days and iw has allowed people to play pirated games on steam servers that are being controlled by the gamers, not iw or steam.

lots of fail w/ ms, iw and steam w/ cod:mw2, plus the single player is maybe 10hrs on veteran? joke.

looking forward to bf:bc2 and bf3.

Glitchers are a drag...
By Esquire on 12/5/2009 9:38:35 AM , Rating: 2
I haven't seen the glitch used and I've played almost 1000 games. It is lame to play that way.

I have a petition if DT readers can support it. Custom button layout in console games. It'll help handiCAPped gamers everywhere

Me playing Modern Warfare 2 with my face!


Not a cheat and IW's problem
By VashHT on 12/5/2009 1:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
MS should not be blanket banning people just because IW failed to test their game properly and have been too lazy to fix a couple small glitches that have arisen in game.

Glitching is annoying but ultimately it is the DEV's fault not the customer, treating you paying customers like criminals because a game has problems in it's code is utterly insane. I can't believe people put up with this garbage, I'm glad I don't use my 360 to play online anymore.

Don't you know
By VultureTX on 12/5/2009 2:48:10 PM , Rating: 2
You should not bring a Javelin to a gun fight!

By DM0407 on 12/5/2009 5:52:00 PM , Rating: 2
'Wow, some of you think cheating a glitch is OK. Um. If I install my car stereo wrong and it disables my door locks, its not ok to STEAL MY CAR."

So this is Mr. Innocent. I guess he wouldn't clean out an ATM if there was a 'glitch' that gave you all the money. You put out a game that was apparently buggy. Instead of blaming your fan base, go yell at your test team.

The comment about 'kissing your $50 good bye' really irritates me. He can kiss my $50 goodbye, I'll support my PC developers who unfortunately are stuck using DirectX.

By xxsk8er101xx on 12/6/2009 12:11:52 AM , Rating: 2
Exploiting programming errors is bannable. Look at MMO games when you exploit a flaw - the players are banned. Simply don't cheat and you won't get banned. I think it's the right thing to do.

I've seen worse
By captainBOB on 12/6/2009 4:30:09 AM , Rating: 2
It's called SitRep Pro + Turtle Beach headset = lololololol i can hear you from 50 miles away lololol i know exactly where you are down to the millimeter.

Not cheating technically, but it does give the user an unfair advantage, and its quite annoying too.

By Kakushya on 12/6/2009 4:53:50 AM , Rating: 2
I think the point that everyone is missing is that being banned for 24h is not about an exploit, it's about YOU the gamer choosing to not have integrity in your online gaming against other players!

You have a community of 20 million members that when they play in a match made game expect a level playing field (i.e. same console, controls, game code, etc.). When you PURPOSELY exploit a bug in a game to gain an unfair advantage over a PAYING member of said community then the repercussions should be great because you are destroying their ability to have a fair and balanced game.

Really, I'm tired of people being so disingenuous about the usage of exploits claiming that EVERYONE can do the same thing when these very same people would go insane with rage if someone found an exploit to use against them that they could not overcome. Learn to play with integrity and you'll find that you have less of an issue with Microsoft banning you, than with a gamer using an exploit to ruin your online experience.


more money
By eli2k on 12/6/2009 6:10:41 AM , Rating: 2
this is microsoft's new strategy to make more money and sell more consoles >:(

The problem
By akse on 12/7/2009 5:16:00 AM , Rating: 2
Imo it is ok that they ban exploiters, in PC world where there are dedicated servers in some good multiplayer games the mods generally kick you too if you do things like that.

But what happens to players that accidentally finds these bugs and use them a couple of times? Im not sure if it's that fair when someone happens to find a bug in the game. Well I don't know how many times you have to abuse the bug before you get a ban...

Who Cares
By seraphim1982 on 12/7/2009 9:29:31 AM , Rating: 2
Honestly, who cares... this game should be played on the PC.
Then you wouldn't have to do with MS Nazi banning sh|t.

PC Gaming FTW
By Autisticgramma on 12/7/2009 1:08:53 PM , Rating: 2
PC Gaming + Lan Play = Win

From now on if it doesn't have lan play, I'll ask "Why Play?" When everyone says "That's close minded." etc, I'll reply "This is why."

Micro$oft used to be the evil empire, looks like they missed those days. When $ony is the only direct competitor, in this space this leaves me with a sick feeling in my stomach. While hardcore gaming has almost always been an M$ (see DirectX) thing, letting the mainstream be anywhere but on the PC puts all of our consumer rights at risk.

See where buying the stinky pile that is Halo, while pirating everything halfway decent got us?


If you have a bricked console, leave it that way, build a PC.

Interesting precedent set
By Leper Messiah on 12/7/2009 2:05:22 PM , Rating: 2
But kind of harsh for a feature that isn't particularly game breaking. I mean hell, getting noob-tubed in MW1 is more annoying than this, and Halo 2 had far more blatant exploits that as far as I'm aware of, were never patched and did not result in a ban (sword jumping anyone?).

This more or less reminds me of the whole, "running faster when you've got a knife out" in the original counterstrike than anything else.

By Belard on 12/8/2009 5:01:32 PM , Rating: 2

This is a developer issue, and if its somewhat common - then people will deal with it.

In many games in past, theres always been glitches - most offer no advantages. Some others, handy. Like on UT99 on the FACE map, one side has a "fake" wall which allows anyone to hide behind it - yet can see out. Since it was rather common - an enemy can walk in, fire a few rockets into the "hole" and keep on going... so in the end, it wasn't used too much once a player realizes the its not working.

With this and other piss-on-your customers tactics... why bother with xbox?

This Is a Good Thing
By HotSoup on 12/8/2009 10:06:05 PM , Rating: 2
Why would anyone get mad at Microsoft for preserving the fair play in its online community? Many people in many other gaming communities would love for action to be taken against cheating of any kind, be it via glitch or illegal program. Microsoft is making sure that its community does not become consumed by people who glitch, and that exploits do not ruin the game or the community itself. Microsoft is doing the right thing, and is actively preserving its paid community even when IW isn't on top of things.

The Javelin glitch is just that; a glitch. It is an exploit that was not intended when designing the game, and ruins the overall gameplay of the game. Therefore, it should not exist in the game, and those who use it should be banned. Just because other companies do not attempt to preserve their online communities by forcefully dealing with those that ruin it does not mean Microsoft shouldn't; it in fact shows the quality of the company that Microsoft is and how seriously it is taking XBL. This further proves that Live is easily one of the best, if not the best, online gaming communities that exist, and well worth the $50 a year.

Stop trying to make an issue out of nothing Jason. Microsoft has been just in its bans so far, even with modding issues, and it has even more reason to ban now. Microsoft should being praised for caring about its community, not bashed for taking the steps it has to preserve it.

By Nichols1986 on 12/9/2009 9:05:46 AM , Rating: 2
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When is a glitch a glitch?
By rdhood on 12/9/2009 4:02:10 PM , Rating: 2
It is not possible to know what is a feature and what is a glitch in a game. Anything the game allows is fairplay. Microsoft is wrong here, and it is going to bite them.

Tolooser wrote:
" Wow, some of you think cheating a glitch is OK. Um. If I install my car stereo wrong and it disables my door locks, its not ok to STEAL MY CAR."

No dude. If the manufacturer installs my car stereo wrong and it allows my car to go 0 to 60 in 1.2 seconds or get 100mpg, then I'm allowed.

See the difference?

By SpaceJumper on 12/12/2009 7:04:11 AM , Rating: 2
Don't bother with Xbox 360. You can ban Xbox 360 by not buying the product.
Banning is the most stupid business decision I ever heard. It is no different than shooting themselves in the foot.
Shake my head...

By ussfletcher on 12/5/2009 12:49:59 AM , Rating: 1
There is already a class action lawsuit for their initial ban of modded consoles, which doesn't seem to have much of a leg to stand on. However this, I believe is something they should be setting their sites on... it is much harder to defend banning people for playing the game in an unintended way.

Don't you know
By VultureTX on 12/5/2009 2:48:50 PM , Rating: 1
You should not bring a Javelin to a gun fight!

By etrading65 on 12/11/2009 7:43:15 AM , Rating: 1

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sensational headline
By rudy on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: sensational headline
By vcolon on 12/5/2009 1:03:59 AM , Rating: 5
Long Live PC Gamers. We're not "controlled" by big brother.

RE: sensational headline
By bjacobson on 12/5/2009 1:32:29 AM , Rating: 5
Unfortunately seeing as my parents own the house including the basement, I am controlled by big father.

RE: sensational headline
By frozentundra123456 on 12/5/2009 1:53:16 AM , Rating: 2
Martyrdom returns from the first game!!!
I think it is totally wrong to ban people for exploiting a programming glitch in the game. Program it right in the first place or issue a patch.
Gee, maybe if microsoft bans enough X-Box players, people will start gaming on the PC again.

By the way, I would have to unfortunately disagree that PC gamers are not controlled by "Big Brother". Maybe we are not controlled directly by Microsoft, but can you play on a dedicated server or get free mod content in MW2--no. We are controlled (screwed over actually) by Activision itself from the start. I also am suspicious that you have to log into Steam to play MW2. Overall I like steam, but this seems quite intrusive if you buy a retail DVD of the game.

RE: sensational headline
By rudy on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: sensational headline
By rudy on 12/5/2009 2:03:51 AM , Rating: 1
The point is the developers do not want people to ruin the game for everyone else. And as complicated as games are to program now days it is pretty much a sure thing that every game will have such bugs or exploits. And it is not like they sent these people to prison they simply suspended them for 1 single day. I really do not get what the big deal is. BTW I am an exclusive PC gamer but even I can respect the idea that a company wants to keep the game from being ruined by exploitation. Especially since so many PC game developers dont care at all to either enforce or fix bugs.

RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/5/2009 2:34:45 AM , Rating: 3
It's not stealing if it's something that the banking systems allows and exposes to all users. For instance, if my bank decided to start showing an "Add Funds" button that automatically added an arbitrary amount of cash to the user's balance, would everyone that used the feature be guilty of stealing? I'd certainly hope not, given that the bank is the one that implemented the feature and then exposed it to users with no countermeasures to prevent its use. I would think that in such a case, the bank is liable, and must either honor the amount of cash that its users add to their accounts before the feature is removed, or be held accountable for fraud. You can't blame the users for taking advantage of a feature that the developers gave them unrestricted access to.

To be clear, I'm not saying that it's okay to exploit an online banking system for free cash. But if the feature that gives the free cash is something that is exposed to all users by default, then using it is not an exploit. An "exploit" involves taking additional steps to circumvent security and/or other restrictions that are in place to prevent users from accessing a feature. Using a feature that is present and available by default to everyone is not an exploit.

RE: sensational headline
By mindless1 on 12/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: sensational headline
By ntoir on 12/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/6/2009 3:58:37 PM , Rating: 2
And your counter-argument is what, exactly? That a bank can show an "Add Funds" button to all of its users, and then go after anyone who uses it, because the users "should have known better"? Or that if they implement a flawed transfer system that forgets to deduct funds from the source account, then the bank isn't liable for cleaning up the mess that it causes?

Because if that's the case, I'm going to found my own bank. And every page of the website will have an "Add $1,000,000 To My Account" button prominently displayed. And every time a user presses it I will proceed to sue them out of house and home, because how dare they use a feature that is so obviously a bug? Those damn, dirty, thieving bastards, I'll see them all pay for clicking on that thing that I put on my banking website and allowed anyone to click on!

And I'll make sure my transfer system deducts from the source account, but instead of depositing into the destination account all the money goes to my personal account. And hey, I won't be liable for it, because apparently banks aren't liable for the glitches they expose their users to. It's the user's own fault for trying to use the flawed transfer system, no?

RE: sensational headline
By nafhan on 12/7/2009 11:12:44 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, banks make mistakes from time to time. A good rule of thumb is that you will get in trouble for spending money that is not yours. The most recent example I can remember was a bank that added a couple extra zeros to a couple's deposit. The couple withdrew all the money from their account and fled to another state. They got arrested when the police finally caught up to them.
I'm not arguing with your conclusion - I think MS did the wrong thing - just your example.
On a side note, if you EVER find money (especially if it's a lot of money) in your bank account that you suspect should not be there, contact your bank immediately to find out what happened. Do not withdraw it. do not spend it. You will likely have legal (and financial) problems if you do.

RE: sensational headline
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 7:00:22 AM , Rating: 1
No because stealing money is illegal.

Glitching in a game is legal.

RE: sensational headline
By DominionSeraph on 12/5/2009 7:18:29 PM , Rating: 3
Glitching in a game is legal.

So's banning you from Xbox Live.

RE: sensational headline
By Alexstarfire on 12/5/2009 8:14:24 PM , Rating: 2
Could be, depending on the reasons.

RE: sensational headline
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 10:24:34 PM , Rating: 2
But who determines if it is indeed glitching, I say if the game mechanics allows you to do it then it is just creative use of game mechanics and if the game developer don't want it to happen then release a patch to disable it.

RE: sensational headline
By rudy on 12/6/2009 11:12:50 AM , Rating: 2
Very clearly the game developers have decided it is not a legal way to play the game in this case.

The same with Pro PC gaming there are many bugs and exploits in CS, and any other PC game that are not allowed during competition. But since the developers have no fixed it, it runs rampant in pubs. The point is that a company is actually taking a double pointed attack on those who abuse the game and this is the best I have seen for support of a game. They are planning to fix it through a patch and they are banning people who use it in the mean time. Throw in anticheat and they have my support as being of the first game companies to really care about keeping the standard of play in their game high.

RE: sensational headline
By bob4432 on 12/7/2009 3:04:41 AM , Rating: 1
yeah, they are doing an excellent job fixing this issue - lets not forget that they made $550M in the first 5 days of the official release...and how long has it taken them to fix this glitch? but no, they would rather ban people. you would think w/ that kind of $$$ made they would want to make the patches as fast as possible and keep the game perfect, but no, they are satisfied w/ giving out a fucked up game and then let the gamers get banned by another party. epic fail.

a legal way to play a game? wtf are you talking about. it is in the game so it is an option - the devs need to take it out of the game if they don't want people to play it. ms banning people and iw not patching is doing nothing but pissing off so many members it is not even funny either by being banned or by the fact that a patch hasn't been put out after they brought in 1/2B in 5 days - you would think they could pay a couple of people overtime to fix it.

the funny reality is that this patch will probably fuck up some other part of the game and piss off more people, so in effect chasing people away from their cash cow.

RE: sensational headline
By itzmec on 12/5/2009 12:12:28 PM , Rating: 1
no its not ok, because stealing is illegal, and cheating isn't.

RE: sensational headline
By mindless1 on 12/6/2009 8:40:22 AM , Rating: 2
Stealing is merely a form of trying to cheat reality to gain what is not rightfully yours.

Cheating at some things is illegal. Fixing an election? Rigging a slot machine?

I do see your point though, cheating at the game isn't illegal but what you fail to see is they were only WORDS, not in any way something that could lead to a legal prosecution so it is pointless to dwell on, there is no end to all the nonsense we'd waste time on if we fixated on mere words.

The factor to consider is whether the punishment is the same and/or appropriate and to realize that yes there is a similar logic involved in claiming right and wrong are not based on whether you can escape detection, particularly when the very case presented was one of where people didn't escape detection.

RE: sensational headline
By NesuD on 12/6/2009 1:54:01 PM , Rating: 2
Why is this news? In PC gaming glitching has long been held to be cheating. I ran CODUO servers for several years and we had very strict rules on glitching. 1 warning is all you got. Caught a second time and you got kicked and warned or kicked and banned for 24 hrs at the admins discretion. Third strike and we perma banned you and reported your GUID to the cheat police and Punk Buster. Cheating is cheating. Anyone who thinks that because it is a programming glitch it is ok to unfair advantage in a way that was never intended to be in the game is just no skill lamer that can't excell in the game without cheating to do it.

RE: sensational headline
By bob4432 on 12/7/2009 2:52:45 AM , Rating: 2
thus the reason to not buy cod:mw2 :)

RE: sensational headline
By MrSmurf on 12/5/2009 5:01:41 AM , Rating: 2
How do you enforce it though? What is stopping people from ganging up and accusing me of glicthing when i didn't? It's happened with my profile. It's been banned for a week over having the quote "nuts" as my quote. A group of kids filed a complaint against it.

I think this is just to scare people because everyone is still doing it. I even sent MS, Stepto and Fourzerotwo and video of someone doing it and his account was not banned.

RE: sensational headline
By callofduty1000 on 12/5/2009 9:49:49 AM , Rating: 3
Yes! Steam is the beginning of a PC gaming revolution. Gone will be the days of the most popular games using a lame controller, designed for children. We want a keyboard and high precision mouse! ...and most of all Freedom! So, go by a high end gaming PC and say goodbye to kitty prison that is console gaming.

RE: sensational headline
By Alexstarfire on 12/5/2009 1:36:01 AM , Rating: 4
First, because it's the programmers fault the glitch is there. Second, they are banning for something that isn't a breach of contract/agreement in any way. And third, it's not just for that game, it's the entire Live service.

Yes, 24 hours isn't bad, but if you do it again I'm sure it'll probably end up being longer. Not only that but "depending on severity" it could be permanently. I hate cheaters as much as the next guy, but for MICROSOFT to ban people from the whole live service because of a glitch in the game, read ANYONE can use it, is just stupid. For something like that AT WORST should be just a ban from that game, not the whole service.

Microsoft will just keep shooting themselves in the foot I guess.

RE: sensational headline
By RyuDeshi on 12/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: sensational headline
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 7:02:08 AM , Rating: 3
should be a ban for activision for taking so long to patch the problem

RE: sensational headline
By mcnabney on 12/5/2009 2:15:11 PM , Rating: 2
I am sure when the next generation of consoles comes out Sony will have plenty to say about Microsoft's behavior.

RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/5/2009 2:11:11 AM , Rating: 5
If the game allows it, then it's not cheating, hacking, or exploiting. It's just shoddy programming on the developer's part.

RE: sensational headline
By icanhascpu on 12/5/2009 3:35:49 AM , Rating: 1
No, it is by definition still exploiting. Though I agree with it not being cheating. You're playing within the bounds of the game even if you exploit some crafty methods..

RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/5/2009 3:47:12 AM , Rating: 4
As long as it's within the bounds of the game, then I think "exploiting crafty methods" is really the same thing as "strategy". It's a technique that you can learn to make yourself more effective at the game. That it's unintended and unbalanced doesn't make it out of bounds, that's what patches are for.

Using the rules of the game to your maximum advantage is the general goal in pretty much any game. A flawed rule still counts as a rule until it is officially removed from the game.

RE: sensational headline
By Solandri on 12/5/2009 4:18:36 AM , Rating: 2
It's pretty simple.

You bought the machine and the game. Microsoft does not own them, you do, and they are (or should be) yours to do with as you please. The bans which brick consoles should be illegal - destruction of private property. I smell a class-action lawsuit, unless Microsoft can somehow argue that you're merely renting or leasing the console from them. Otherwise in the future we're going to have cars which get bricked if you install a radio brand that isn't made by the car manufacturer.

You subscribe to the Xbox Live service. You do not own it, Microsoft does. If they feel you've violated some of the terms and conditions they outlined when you signed up, it is their right to suspend or cancel your subscription.

If there's a glitch in the game, you can abuse it all you want when playing single-player. But the moment you start playing the game on the Live service, you're subject to whatever rules they decide you need to follow to continue using their service.

RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/5/2009 4:46:24 AM , Rating: 3
You subscribe to the Xbox Live service. You do not own it, Microsoft does. If they feel you've violated some of the terms and conditions they outlined when you signed up, it is their right to suspend or cancel your subscription.

On that point, I absolutely agree with you. Microsoft can police their service however they want. I really don't care too much about that.

I'm more interested in the semantics of labeling the people who are using this feature/glitch as exploiters, cheaters, and in particular, hackers. None of those really apply, because the feature as it presently exists is an intrinsic feature of the game world, equally accessible to anyone who wants to use it. It's part of the game's current rule-set, so using it, no matter how flawed it may be, cannot be cheating. "Hacker" especially doesn't apply, because generally hacking something requires a bit more skill than just accessing the built-in game mechanics. Calling anyone who uses the glitch a hacker gives them too much credit, and is insulting to legitimate hackers.

RE: sensational headline
By PhatoseAlpha on 12/5/2009 5:49:41 PM , Rating: 2
Look, we are not talking about some cheesy tactic, or even something that is at least conceivably intentional. Nor are we talking about some weird effect which players will ultimately encounter in the normal course of playing. We're talking about an outright bug, which causes you to fire a missile - the kind of missile which usually requires a lock-on period and is used on aircraft - on death. The players using it pretty much universally heard about in on the internet in the context of 'javelin glitch to own people'.

Hacker is indeed incorrect. Exploiter is pretty much defined by using an obvious bug to gain an advantage, so that's absolutely correct. Online multiplayer gaming in generally defines using a bug to gain an advantage as cheating. It may technically be part of the game, but the rules of acceptable conduct are not limited to purely game considerations. Much as say, unplugging the other player's controller is considered cheating - the game itself takes no stance on the issue, but the community has no doubts you're cheating.

In an online multiplayer game, the coding of the game is not the entirety of the rules. Players know this, Microsoft knows this, and just to be sure everybody knows this, Microsoft added it into their Terms of Service.

I do have to say you seem to give in game hackers far too much credit. Using an outside cheating method typically requires no more skill then using an in-game cheating method - the people using these cheats aren't the ones creating them, after all.

RE: sensational headline
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 10:30:01 PM , Rating: 2
But the solution shouldn't be banning the people using the glitch.

The solution should be activision spending some of those millions they made to fix the problem once and for all.

First Person Shooters are well knwon for their bugs that go unfixed for months.

RE: sensational headline
By PhatoseAlpha on 12/6/2009 1:36:16 AM , Rating: 2
They are no doubt working on it. Microsoft, however, has a very strict policy on verifying that any patch won't break the system before it can be rolled out. If in the meantime, this gets you a day's ban....well, it's not like they didn't make their policy on these things clear.

RE: sensational headline
By mindless1 on 12/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: sensational headline
By rs1 on 12/6/2009 3:20:09 PM , Rating: 3
If your father tells you that you are grounded so you can't leave the house, do you think there is no punishment for going out because an unlocked door is an enabler that changes the rule?

That depends, if you're in a game where your father tells you that you are grounded and can't leave, and the game happens to include an unlocked door that can be used to leave the house, then perhaps you can use it with no punishment. In fact, it might even be that the game expects you to use it, in order to further the plot. Quite a few games use a comparable mechanic (off the top of my head I can think of Dragon Age and Oblivion) of sticking your character in a dungeon and not progressing until you can find a way to break out.

In any case, the important distinction here is that a game world is not the same thing as the real world. Game worlds are purposefully engineered, and as such the set of all allowable actions in the game world, by definition, comprise the game's rule-set. Moreover, one must assume that any feature present in the game world was put there on purpose, and is meant to be used. A game-world is no more than the expression of its rules, and there is no obligation for the rules of the game world to mirror those of the real world, and any action inherently allowed by the game world must be taken as a legal move in the context of that game.

Right now there is simply a rule in the game that allows people to explode after dying. And until it's removed, it's just as valid as the rule that allows people to dual-wield shotguns in a combat-effective manner, ignoring all the real-world issues related to balance, aiming, recoil, and working the pump-action mechanism that would come up if such a thing were attempted outside of the game world.

Yes, the rule is flawed, but a flawed rule is still a valid rule until it is removed.

RE: sensational headline
By DominionSeraph on 12/6/2009 7:30:17 PM , Rating: 2
As long as it's within the bounds of the game, then I think "exploiting crafty methods" is really the same thing as "strategy"."

Well then by this definition there is no such thing as a "bug."
Are you 'stuck' behind that crate? Nooo... you're simply fully exploiting all the movement options the game currently has available to you.

Have fun with that.

RE: sensational headline
By Cheesetogo on 12/5/2009 2:31:43 AM , Rating: 4
I don't know why I even come here anymore. It seems like every single article is written by Mick, and he just loves to blow things out of proportion. 24 hour ban for cheating!??! THE HORROR!

RE: sensational headline
By Pryde on 12/5/2009 7:04:40 AM , Rating: 3
But they arn't cheating or exploiting, they are using creative use of game mechanics.

RE: sensational headline
By ChoreBoy on 12/5/2009 12:35:20 PM , Rating: 2
is there a "rulebook" somewhere that list every LEGAL way to kill somebody in this GAME? how is this javelin glitch is an exploit? i thought it was purposely coded into the game to make it more fun and interesting. it sure was more fun. now i'm banned.

actually, i'm lying.... i've never owned an xbox, and never will. this further reinforces my decision to not own an xbox. good job for being huge babies about the whole thing, microsoft.

how bout FIX THE PROBLEM? millions of dollars, but they cant patch a game in a week.

are peoples "kill statistics" SOOOO important in this GAME that it requires a ban for getting a few extra frags?

buy a PC, newbs. and don't buy COD for it.

RE: sensational headline
By fatedtodie on 12/9/2009 12:07:54 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I think it is called the manual... funny most people don't ... wait for it...

It is a cheat, if i shoot you, that is fair, if you shoot and kill me.. being dead i do something that makes you die... that is an OBVIOUS non intended action. It is cheating, end of discussion end of your whining, STFU accept you ban and do what the NFL recommends and go outside and exercise for 60 minutes. Do the same thing the next day regardless of the ban... soon you wont care and you will actually have a life and you won't miss time away from a game.

That is kinda the whole point you are missing. It is a game, people cheat, they can't play the game... so? Man up, handle it and move on.

RE: sensational headline
By chruschef on 12/5/2009 12:38:32 PM , Rating: 1
have you seen this glitch in action?

... it's a dick move. that said, MS shouldn't ban for more than a couple hours; they should be more concerned with getting the glitch fixed. catching the offenders is going to be pretty tough, patch it and they dont have to sweat about it. not to mention, the more noise they make about it, the more people are going to find out about the glitch and abuse it.

RE: sensational headline
By ChoreBoy on 12/5/2009 1:08:56 PM , Rating: 1
camping spawns is a dick move. does that get you a ban too?

and what is this "bouncing" and why weren't people banned for that too? maybe the whole "ban people for javelin glitch" idea was activision's.... who knows? it's lame to treat you're loyal customers like that--just for having some fun.

whatever, do what you want, MS, you've got 1000 people, that were fragged by a glitch, cheering you on, cuz they are all butt-hurt that they lost some statistics.

RE: sensational headline
By Lerianis on 12/6/2009 7:37:17 AM , Rating: 1
Some people aren't just getting a 24 hour ban, they are being LIFETIME BANNED. That is the problem. The fact is also that until this is patched, it is part of the game, and there is no reason to ban someone for using something that is 'part of the game'.

If it's a flaw.... don't ban people for using it, just FIX THE DAMNED FLAW! And until then, simply ignore what is going on!

RE: sensational headline
By mindless1 on 12/6/2009 8:51:46 AM , Rating: 2
Lifetime ban the very first time they do it, or after knowing of any kind of bans?

The flaw does not need fixed to make it fair to ban anyone who knows it is no longer tolerated. Ignoring it and having the game experienced ruined is no better for those people than it is to ban the rest.

Lifetime ban is too harsh I think, but lifetime ban for that game alone after being warned is not.

RE: sensational headline
By Makaveli on 12/6/2009 12:24:06 PM , Rating: 3
Yet another reason why I didn't buy this game, thank your MS and IW ward for saving me $60!

This money will go to a PC game where I will have dedicated servers and freedom!

RE: sensational headline
By DearS on 12/8/2009 10:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
If MS atleast gave people there money back or more days online Then I'd be ok. As it is, MS can go F-.

No worries here
By Freezebyte on 12/5/09, Rating: -1
"We can't expect users to use common sense. That would eliminate the need for all sorts of legislation, committees, oversight and lawyers." -- Christopher Jennings

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