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Megan Meier Family Picture  (Source: CNN)
Trial lawyers made their closing arguments Monday

The case of Megan Meier, 13, took the nation by storm.  The teenager was the victim of cyber bullying from a 47-year- old neighbor who impersonated an acquaintance of Meier.  The case highlighted the rise of online anger and aggression, in particular how the internet is becoming a new realm for harsh bullying.

The saga of Meier's death began when neighbor Lori Drew created a fake MySpace account, taking on the persona of an attractive 18-year-old boy named "Josh Evans".  Drew concocted the plan to get back at Meier for allegedly saying things about Drew's teenage daughter, Sarah, a former friend of Megan's.  She hoped to gain Megan's trust and then use the information against her. 

Her daughter Sarah and her eighteen-year-old employee were in on the scheme.  For weeks Drew bragged to friends and coworkers about her illegal MySpace page, which she mentioned to them was in violation of federal laws and the MySpace user agreement.

After initially romancing Meier, Drew's alter-ego began sending her nasty messages, culminating in a message where she stated, "The world would be a better place without you." 

Hours later, Meier hanged herself.

Federal agents sidestepped local authorities, due to what they felt were weak local cybercrime laws.  Charging Drew with federal computer charges, their case concluded Monday with closing arguments heard.

Mark Krause, an assistant United States attorney, stated in the closing arguments, "The defendant had a problem.  And that problem's name was Megan Meier.  Even after the tragic death of Megan Meier the defendant couldn't stop talking about her scheme."

The defense countered with Drew's lawyer, H. Dean Steward stating that Drew should not be held liable for violating the MySpace user agreement in a potentially criminal way as, according to him, when it comes to user agreements "nobody reads them."  He went on to claim that the case failed to prove any violations of federal fraud statutes and that, "You'd think this was a homicide case--it's not."

Drew, who lives by St. Louis in the suburbs, is up on four federal charges -- conspiracy and three counts of accessing a computer without authorization via interstate commerce to obtain information to inflict emotional distress.  Lori Drew refused to testify in the case, but her daughter testified emotionally in the closing day of the trial, bemoaning of her memory of key events, "I don't know."

The case now is in the hands of the jury.

In a related story, another teenager recently committed suicide on a video chat site, Justin.tv after being encouraged by users to kill himself.

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She should....
By Cheesew1z69 on 11/25/2008 11:31:21 AM , Rating: 5
Be held responsible, what the fuck is wrong with this woman at 40+ years of age, that she feels the need to screw with a 13 year old!




RE: She should....
By RMSe17 on 11/25/2008 11:40:35 AM , Rating: 2
yea. Screw that, manipulation is wrong, and to use your 40+ years of experience with people to manipulate a 13 year old is way messed up. Prison.


RE: She should....
By Nfarce on 11/25/2008 11:53:09 AM , Rating: 5
You know, we men get bashed by women all the time for being "warmongers" and violence/hate prone, yet when you look at it, women can be just as vindictive if not more so, especially when it comes to saving the face of their precious daughters in the eyes of others. Anyone remember that mother in Texas who killed a rival to her daughter over some stupid cheerleading position?

But back to this issue, both parties share fault. The parents of Megan should have been more proactive in dealing with her depressive behavior which she was apparently prone to before this incident even began to unfold. However, the majority at fault goes to the adult woman who screwed with the mind of a 13 year old easily impressionable girl. She should do many years behind bars IMO.


RE: She should....
By Fanon on 11/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: She should....
By Nfarce on 11/25/2008 12:13:08 PM , Rating: 5
If you do not believe that the parents of a 13 year old daughter who previously showed signs of depressive behavior share at least some blame here for not monitoring her online activities, then I surmise that you'd argue that guns kill people and eating utensils make people fat.


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 12:23:35 PM , Rating: 5
You forgot the ever present bartenders cause drunk driving deaths and accidents. Ridiculous, if your depressed child killed herself, it was because she was depressed.


RE: She should....
By Suntan on 11/25/2008 1:00:59 PM , Rating: 4
Bartenders are not the legal guardians (thereby being legally responsible for their well being) of the people they are serving. Also, bartenders are serving people over the legal age and by definition, are not minors. Lastly, bartenders *are* held responsible for the actions of children that they serve alcohol to. But other than that your analogy sorta fits.

-Suntan


RE: She should....
By F41TH00 on 11/25/2008 1:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
I would agree that she should be responsible to the event. But, in her defense, who doesn't bully? Kids at school bully each other, but the question is, do the victim have to take it that far to commit suicide?

Here's my point of view. Why in the world a 13 yr old kid would trust the word "The world would be a better place without you" from somebody else that is not a family?. How many people got broken heart? These all mental strength. I would agree if someone says that a 13 yr old kid doesn't have the mental strength to deal with 40+. No doubt. But simple teaching will do by the parents. Parents always teach to listen to them and trust no strangers. I would definitely agree that Drew is guilty IF she has physically helped her to commit suicide. Who made the choice to commit suicide? If all kids have Meier's mentality, then most of them already committed suicide. Bully happens every day and every where you go.

I do concern when Meier committed suicide, but we're living in the world that have different influence. Either good or bad. It's up to parents or teacher or others to share their knowledge how to survive in this world. Blaming one person or pointing finger at someone does not solve the issue. Sure the bully will stop because of the court case or a judge said so. Would it be better if the kids have stronger mental strength so whoever try to bully them it will not effect them much? Just like we drink vitamin everyday, to get our body stronger. We do not need to point finger to others.


RE: She should....
By Murloc on 11/25/2008 3:16:29 PM , Rating: 5
this woman is just mad, sociopathic or something.


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 4:46:05 PM , Rating: 3
Is there a law against being mad or a sociopath? If there was we would surely be out many artists and business men respectively.


RE: She should....
By mars777 on 11/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: She should....
By ecktt on 11/26/2008 8:55:21 AM , Rating: 1
WTF!
FFS, if I tell you go drive into a tree would you?


RE: She should....
By TreeDude62 on 11/26/2008 9:42:19 AM , Rating: 4
Last time I checked the bullys at school were not 47. That would be like a teacher bullying a student. It is that fact that makes her guilty of homicide. If she were in the same age group, you could say she really did not understand the effect she was going to have. But she is 47 and knew what she was doing.


RE: She should....
By porkpie on 11/26/2008 5:39:14 PM , Rating: 1
Are you freakin kidding me? Homicide? Because she told a girl "I don't like you any more"? Are you on crack?


RE: She should....
By mindless1 on 11/25/2008 1:11:19 PM , Rating: 4
Uh, monitoring? Is that like being at fault if you watched a drunk driver slam into your child in the front yard while you watched them play? Remember, the parents didn't know this 40 something psycho was up to anything until it was too late. Nor did Megan AFAIK.

While anyone wants to shield their child from the real world, everything can't be censored, every teen has ups and downs while growing through their teenage years. The main thing that needs to happen is for predators like this 40 yo woman to be put where they can't harm children. Remember that Megan was alive even if troubled, before Drew came along, and Drew intended to cause harm even if she was too pathetic to realize the full extent of her actions.

If a gunman says "yeah I intended to shoot the guy but I didn't want him to die (meaning I don't want to get in trouble), just to be harmed", is the gunman any less at fault? Remember that IF Megan was actually emotionally instable enough for it to play a part in this, then Drew would've also recognized that and played upon it. That's the worst kind of scumbag to do such a thing,


RE: She should....
By Samus on 11/25/2008 1:33:23 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with mindless and everyone else who shares that view. Normally I'd lean the majority of blame on the parents in the case of a childs' suicide, BUT, this case is entirely unique in that ANOTHER parent had a direct affect on the death. It's one of the most conceeded things imaginable, and the way she went about it, bragging and laughing, is just totally fucked.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Just like in this case.


RE: She should....
By Suntan on 11/25/2008 1:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Normally I'd lean the majority of blame on the parents in the case of a childs' suicide,


So what would be a "normal" child suicide in your book? And how would the parents in that scnario be any more/less responsible due to their lack of parenting?

Sorry, but manipulation or not, a "normal" kid doesn't just decide to off themselves in the span of an afternoon because a boyfriend (imaginary online type or not) dumps them and says something nasty to them. If that were the case none of us would ever have been born and the human race would have ceased generations ago as it is not all that unusual for a teenagers to break up.

-Suntan


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 2:14:57 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly, the girl had problems, the parents knew it. If your child was a schizophrenic, would you not watch them closer? Same goes for manic depression.


RE: She should....
By Lerianis on 11/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 1:58:29 PM , Rating: 4
> "Remember, the parents didn't know this 40 something psycho was up to anything..."

Neither did the girl who committed suicide. From her perspective, she met a boy, he initially liked her, then told her to get lost -- in other words, a perfect replica of a situation that happens millions of times a year in teenage America. 99.85% of the time without either party committing suicide. Had "Josh" been a real person, odds are his behavior would have been exactly the same...and the outcome as well.

The parents *did* know their daughter had emotional problems, however, and quarrelled with her own mother shortly before killing herself (funny how that part usually gets left out of the story, eh?)

And now a mindless mob wants to burn this woman at the stake, for saying rude things to a teenage girl who had been, by all accounts, abusive to her own daughter? God forbid that become enshrined into legal custom, for if so, myself and hundreds of thousands of other parents will be rotting in jail far longer than this woman.


RE: She should....
By nycromes on 11/25/2008 2:33:58 PM , Rating: 2
This goes a little beyond just saying some bad things. This was a planned attack on this young girl that amounts to nothing more than child abuse. The scenario you describe is between minors, which is a totally different situation.

The parents are partially responsible, but this girl is dead because of the abuse of another adult and the adult responsible should be charged with a crime. She shouldn't be burnt at the stake, but she should have to answer for her actions.

As to the quarrel, I don't know much about it, was it regarding this situation? I would not be against the parents being tried by a jury either to see if they are responsible for any part of this suicide.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 2:51:29 PM , Rating: 5
> "this girl is dead because of the abuse of another adult "

I disagree. If you unwittingly pick up a bomb-containing package and shake it, are you responsible for the explosion? This girl was a time bomb waiting to go off.

Being dumped by her "boyfriend" certainly shook the package, but I'd argue her tearful argument with her mother -- the last event immediately before her suicide -- was an even more proximate cause.

As for this woman "answering for her actions", we have a legal code for a reason. If she broke a law, let her be tried for that. But talk of life in prison is just plain silliness. Not long ago, I witnessed an attempted murder trial for a man who tried to saw off his ex-girlfriend's head. She survived, luckily...no thanks to him. His sentence? Five years, out in two point five.

Reasonable people don't commit suicide simply because they're insulted by someone they've never met. Reasonable people don't expect others to do so either. Holding this woman responsible for a suicide is unwarranted, especially when the evidence linking the two events is so tenuous.

Again, if a law was broken here, cite it and charge her with it. But most of these posts display nothing but a vigilante mentality, seeking for a scapegoat to assuage their own emotions.


RE: She should....
By nycromes on 11/25/2008 2:59:27 PM , Rating: 2
Okay... Child abuse...lets go with that.

And this woman didn't unwittingly do this to this child. She planned it out, collecting information on this girl and using it against her to cause pain.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:07:28 PM , Rating: 5
That's the parent's side of the story. According to Drew, she didn't "romance" Meier, she befriended her, as Meier had been abusing her own daughter, and she wanted to find out what she was up to. After befriending her, Drew then sent a series of messages intended to make her feel guilty for her improper behavior. So what's the actual truth? Somewhere in the middle, I suspect.

Let us not forget that this girl had attempted suicide before. If Drew was responsible for the second one, who was responsible for the first?

The death of a child is never an easy matter. Seeking a scapegoat may sooth our emotions...but is it truly justice?


RE: She should....
By SilthDraeth on 11/25/2008 4:42:34 PM , Rating: 3
I agree with Masher in this, and was going to post something similar.

Unlike real bullying, cyber bullying is only possible with both people's consent.

You are forced to attend school, and if some kid insults you and beats the crud out of you in school, you were forced to be there.

Online, you choose to do this social networking, and you take the full responsibility with dealing with internet and anonymity it provides. If you don't like what is being said, you extract yourself from the area. You are not forced to be there, and if you can't handle the pressure you leave.

Sure the woman was mean spirited, but she didn't cause the suicide, just as Blizzard isn't responsible for idiots dieing from playing World of Warcraft for 48 hours with no food, water or sleep.


RE: She should....
By just4U on 11/26/2008 9:51:25 AM , Rating: 2
I do believe that woman shares some blame for her part in helping to push that girl over the edge. But what should she be charged with?


RE: She should....
By ChickenMcTest on 11/26/2008 2:39:07 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Let us not forget that this girl had attempted suicide before. If Drew was responsible for the second one, who was responsible for the first?


The first suicide attempt has little relevance here. Megan killed herself as a direct result of the actions of Ms. Drew.

MS. Drew is old enough to have recognized the harm her actions were causing to a very young girl. Drew knew that Meier was attracted to her on-line persona. Drew used that attraction to hurt Meier.

I am not saying Drew is wholly responsible for the suicide, however, she certainly bears some responsibility. I think the courts should decide if some form of punishment is warranted for her bad deeds.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 5:43:02 PM , Rating: 2
> "The first suicide attempt has little relevance here. "
On the contrary, it demonstrates a predisposition to do so. In our legal system, we judge the results of actions by how a reasonable and ordinary person would react to them.

Reasonable people do not commit suicide because someone they've never met sends them a rude message. Which means its unreasonable to expect such as a result of such an action.

> "I think the courts should decide if some form of punishment is warranted "

It appears the prosecutors have already decided Drew bears no culpability for the death at all, which is why after two years of investigation, they did nothing but charge her with a minor EULA violation.


RE: She should....
By DASQ on 11/28/2008 3:06:14 PM , Rating: 1
No, this is poor, poor logic.

If I told you to go kill yourself, and you did, would I be charged with murder? God no I wouldn't! That's ridiculous! The choice was made by you. The choice. Drew did not wrap the rope around Meier's neck and kick the chair out from under her. Megan did that all by herself. This is just scapegoating, nothing more.

But apparently words are murder now, if this goes through. Drew bears the responsibility of being a big bitch, that's about it though. 'bad deeds'? Who are you, Santa Claus? We're gonna take away your freedom because you didn't share your fruit snacks at Recess.


RE: She should....
By 91TTZ on 11/26/2008 11:33:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The parents are partially responsible, but this girl is dead because of the abuse of another adult and the adult responsible should be charged with a crime.


False.

This girl is dead because she hung herself over something trivial.

Millions of people have to deal with breakups, and occasionally a mentally unstable person will kill themself over it. It is not anyone else's fault that they have mental issues.

While this woman was pretending to be a young boy, the reality is that she was merely imitating events that often do happen in real life. This girls reaction was completely disproportionate to the action.


RE: She should....
By Solandri on 11/25/2008 2:44:52 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Neither did the girl who committed suicide. From her perspective, she met a boy, he initially liked her, then told her to get lost -- in other words, a perfect replica of a situation that happens millions of times a year in teenage America. 99.85% of the time without either party committing suicide. Had "Josh" been a real person, odds are his behavior would have been exactly the same...and the outcome as well.

I dunno about that. Drew set up the whole situation with the "breakup" as the inevitable conclusion with the intent to create as much emotional distress as possible. It's impossible to say without reading all the messages the two exchanged, but I suspect it wasn't like 99.85% of relationships that end in breakup, it was probably much, much worse. By design.


RE: She should....
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:26:03 PM , Rating: 4
You suspect quite a bit, but in a court of law, you need to prove it. So I want proof that this was the case. Otherwise, she walks. No crime was committed here.


RE: She should....
By Solandri on 11/25/2008 3:38:11 PM , Rating: 2
Right. If the messages were logged or saved, then the truth should come out. I was just challenging the assertion that nothing out of the ordinary happened here. It too lacks proof.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:48:59 PM , Rating: 3
The media's account of these messages seems to have grown over time. For instance, early accounts said Meier was told "this place [i.e. MySpace] would be better if you left". Now it's become "the world would be better off without you".

Sadly, the most important facet of the situation wasn't logged at all-- the rather violent argument Meier had with her mother shortly before committing suicide. I'd suspect that as the proximate cause here...but I doubt anyone but her mother will ever know the full details of just what happened there.


RE: She should....
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:49:38 PM , Rating: 3
I would be if all the materials were made public, sympathy would dry up in short order. It's the assumptions and the angry mob syndrome that are drumming up the sympathy for this girl. Frankly I see no crime here based on the evidence available, and would be willing to bet that there wasn't one since they are charging her with an EULA violation. They typically charge you with the worst crime they can, and tack on the other ones as well. In this case no murder, assisted suicide, threats, or any other charges are on the books for this mother. I have to conclude that no laws were broken and they are trying to nail her with a breach of contract. Even then its small fries.


RE: She should....
By Lerianis on 11/25/2008 10:01:37 PM , Rating: 1
Even if the woman's intention was to create 'as much emotional distress as possible'... you have to wonder what the hell her parents were teaching the girl who suicided!
If they would have told her "Hey, there are plenty of fish in the sea, don't get hooked on solely ONE GUY because you are inevitably going to be disappointed!".... I doubt this would have cause as much 'emotional distress' as it did.

That is what I tell ALL children and teenagers: don't get too hooked on one person, they are most likely going to leave you sooner or later, even if you are over 18, so just get used to it and deal with reality.
'True love' is the biggest piece of shite ever to come out of religion. There simply isn't any such thing, and different circumstances can drive people apart. Heck, most people get together, and then find that they are NOT compatible whatsoever because of various things.


RE: She should....
By 91TTZ on 11/26/2008 12:00:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I dunno about that. Drew set up the whole situation with the "breakup" as the inevitable conclusion with the intent to create as much emotional distress as possible. It's impossible to say without reading all the messages the two exchanged, but I suspect it wasn't like 99.85% of relationships that end in breakup, it was probably much, much worse. By design.


It doesn't matter how bad the taunting was. The truth is that words cannot physically hurt somebody. This kid did all the physical harm to herself.

You are not responsible for what other people do to themselves.


RE: She should....
By Jypster on 11/25/2008 10:55:32 PM , Rating: 2
Masher, while I generally agree on your views with most things, some of the points you have raised here are a bit misleading and a bit worrying.

What I mean by misleading is your statement “99.85% of the time without either party committing suicide” Where did you get this figure ? Are you talking about suicides after relationship breakups or teenage suicide in general? 0.15% of teenagers commit suicide, that sounds like a very small number and really does take the sting out of it. That is what I mean by misleading. Try saying that around 45,000 teenagers committed suicide in the US last year.

Now here in Australia where I can get the figures as as my partner works for the Department of Child Safety. It is estimated that only 1 in 20 attempts succeed. These are only the ones that are reported.

So take these figures back to your 0.15% and it is looking pretty ugly isn't it? Or did you just make up that 99.85% figure ? If so .. well I have seen how you have responded on these forums to people that make up figures before.

You also state that you say rude things to teenagers ? We are talking 13 year olds here not some smart arse 17 year tosser. So you think that as you and thousands of other parents do it is it ok? Aren't we supposed to be the Adults here and act responsibly. Would you think it is ok for a parent to be saying rude things to your 13 year old child ? For the sake of yours kids I hope you don't think that is OK. You don't teach Children by being rude or abusive to them.

As for this case itself. I do agree we simply do not know enough to come to any sort of conclusion. But surely some some a alarm bells must ring if an Adult feels that this is a correct course of action to take.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 12:11:31 AM , Rating: 2
> "Or did you just make up that 99.85% figure ?"

It was based on my remembrance of a old report. However, from looking up the actual data, it appears I was actually overly pessimistic. The real value in the 15-24 age group (the youngest for which there are statistics) is 10.8 per 100,000. Assuming the rate for 13-year olds is even half that (suicides among people younger than 15 are very rare) and assume optimistically that fully half are due to a failed relationship, and the actual rate is closer to 99.9975%. Source data:

http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files...

> "Try saying that around 45,000 teenagers committed suicide in the US last year."

That figure seems to be wildly incorrect. According to the CDC, for all age groups combined (not just teens), there were only 32,000 suicides total in 2005. For the 15-24 age group, the value is roughly 1/10 this. For teens alone, (excluding ages 20-24) the value is likely closer to 1/20 that, or about 1500 total.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suicide/suicide_data_...

> "Would you think it is ok for a parent to be saying rude things to your 13 year old child ?"

It all depends on context. If my teenage child gets out of line at school, I most certainly hope some adult will speak rudely to him. And to me also, should the problem recur, and I fail to take corrective action myself.

If some stranger spoke rudely to him without provocation, I'd have a problem with it . . . but I also wouldn't be calling for life in prison for them for doing it.


RE: She should....
By Jypster on 11/26/2008 12:42:34 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks Masher, thought it wasn't like you to make up stats. 45K was based on what you said and I just ran with that <winks>.

Still 1500 dead kids is a horrible thought. The local school here dead each year. Lets take the Aust stats into account with only one successful attempt out of 20. That is still alot of kids calling out for help isn't it ?

I would much rather if my Child needed correction for his behavour that he was spoken to sternly, not rudely. If I am speaking to my 21 year old or my 13 year old twins I am stern, never rude. I expect Adults to be above being rude to people to make a point, isn't that one of the defining things that make us more mature ?

But like you said and I agree we simply don't know enough about this to really say what happened. But she sure needs a clip under the ears for it at least.


RE: She should....
By wvh on 11/26/2008 3:49:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
From her perspective, she met a boy, he initially liked her, then told her to get lost -- in other words, a perfect replica of a situation that happens millions of times a year in teenage America. 99.85% of the time without either party committing suicide. Had "Josh" been a real person, odds are his behavior would have been exactly the same...and the outcome as well.


But this is not a 13-year old boy. This is an adult deliberately abusing superior emotional understanding to hurt a child. 13-year olds can be cruel, but don't have full understanding of the consequences of their actions, and on the whole are incapable of such complex deceit. The playing field just isn't fair. If my wife hits me, it might hurt; but if I'd hit her, she might die. This makes me more culpable than her; with greater power comes greater responsibility. I hope you do see the difference between two 13-year olds fighting and a 40-year old adult beating the pulp out of a 13-year old child.

All teenagers have emotional issues. I'd be surprised to find teenagers that have absolutely never thought about suicide.

This woman did a horrible thing, and the fact she bragged about it doesn't exactly make her more likeable, either. She deserves to be punished, even though I don't have a clue how much would be appropriate...


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 5:37:31 PM , Rating: 2
> "I hope you do see the difference between two 13-year olds fighting and a 40-year old adult beating the pulp out of a 13-year old child."

But no one got "the pulp beat out of them". They simply received a rude message or two...and, interestingly enough, the truly rude messages which were supposedly sent were ones that magically vanished and never got logged. Doesn't that make you even the slightest bit suspicious?

In any case, you're still skirting the real issue. Any lovelorn 13-year old girl cruising Myspace is going to eventually have dozens of boys say much worse than this to her. If these messages were truly the cause of this suicide, then Megan Meiers was already dead, with or without Drew. It would have been unavoidable.

Worse, the most proximate cause of this suicide doesn't even seem to have been this breakup, but rather Megan's subsequent argument with her mother. Meiers had attempted suicide before-- also just after an argument with her mother. If there's any emotional abuse at all here (and I rather doubt there is), I think it's clear its all from the same house.


RE: She should....
By Fanon on 11/25/2008 1:46:38 PM , Rating: 2
If I were a "guns kill people" type I'd say it was MySpace's fault.

Depressive behavior? I've read four articles on this subject and nothing says anything about depressive behavior.


RE: She should....
By Nfarce on 11/25/2008 2:49:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've read four articles on this subject and nothing says anything about depressive behavior.


Amazing how several other posters have made that accusation too, huh? Think we made that up, or did the four different articles you read just leave that part out?

From Thursday's testimony last week:

Drew, Grills continued, "was kind of quiet for a second and then her husband started yelling at us to get rid of the MySpace" account for "Josh."

Grills said Drew immediately began consoling her daughter, saying, "We could've pushed her overboard because she was depressed and suicidal ."

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Woman-Testifi...


RE: She should....
By Fanon on 11/25/2008 5:02:48 PM , Rating: 2
Wow! Only the people responsible for her death (not her parents) said she was depressed and suicidal! Yeah, I guess if someone killed themselves over what I said, I'd try to make it not my fault, too.

Got anything else? What you presented means nothing.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 5:16:06 PM , Rating: 4
Direct testimony from the trial:
quote:
A composed Tina Meier [Megan's Mother] told jurors her daughter was taking medication for attention deficit disorder and depression and that she struggled with low self-esteem. Concerned about her daughter’s safety, Meier said she had Megan’s father reverse the lock on her bedroom.

“I was nervous she would do something,” said Meier, adding that Megan previously tried committing suicide ...

[When she arrived home], Megan was crying. “Josh” and two other girls were saying mean things about her, Meier said...

She said she told her daughter that she wasn’t supposed to be online without her being there.

“The last words she said to me were ‘You are supposed to be my mom, you are supposed to be on my side,’ ”

The teen’s mother said she later ran upstairs and found Megan hanging in the closet with a belt around her neck

That's rather definitive, I would say.


RE: She should....
By Fanon on 11/25/2008 5:34:24 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks, Masher2. That's all NFarce had to post to shut me up =/


RE: She should....
By BigPeen on 11/26/2008 3:21:27 AM , Rating: 2
I'd have low self esteem too if I was a teenager and my parents were telling me I was too stupid for school and needed drugs to get through it. (I'm referring to ADD meds FYI)


RE: She should....
By afkrotch on 11/26/2008 8:59:33 AM , Rating: 2
She could have just did like other teens. Start snorting blow and hang out with a bad group of kids. They don't care what you look like and she probably would have gotten laid by the drug dealer too.


RE: She should....
By Nfarce on 11/25/2008 5:18:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wow! Only the people responsible for her death (not her parents) said she was depressed and suicidal!


Hey dude, what I presented was testimony in a court of law. If you have a problem with that, it's not my fault! But, I see you chose to ignore that several other bloggers knew about Megan's unstable background.

quote:
Got anything else?


Glad you asked, dude:

The case is heartbreaking. A beautiful, but psychologically disturbed 13-year-old girl named Megan Meier was a depressed teen who was on medication for depression and Attention Deficit Disorder from the time she was young.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article...

As John Adams said when defending the British soldiers accused of the Boston Massacre, facts are stubborn things.

Plenty more where that came from too if you want more facts on the case...just let me know. I'm just the messenger.


RE: She should....
By Fanon on 11/25/2008 5:33:22 PM , Rating: 2
Hey dude, you do realize the testimony you quoted came from the people impersonating "Josh", correct? I defer you to my previous statement, as what you provided was meaningless. What Masher2 provided was concrete proof.


RE: She should....
By Nfarce on 11/25/2008 8:59:51 PM , Rating: 2
Hey dude, first of all, I wasn't trying to "shut you up." I was defending a comment made (along with others) that this girl had mental issues. I followed this case and remember that part of the story.

The fact that you spouted off that you read "four articles" that didn't mention that mental illness fact and acted rather defensive speaks volumes about you. Instead of just knee-jerking with a response, why didn't you do a little research? After all, for the THIRD time now to remind you, when several other bloggers make a similar comment (in this case about a girl having mental illness), then chances are it's probably true and you should do your homework. Dude.


RE: She should....
By LivingDedBoy on 11/25/2008 4:55:27 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot, 'And it was that pencils fault for failing your math test.'


RE: She should....
By ImSpartacus on 11/25/2008 10:01:27 PM , Rating: 2
Do you know why it would be difficult to prove this is homicide? Because it's not homicide, it's suicide.

People should be responsible for their actions, but they cannot take responsibility that is not there's.

Everybody is shocked that some woman apparently badgered a girl into suicide. No one is thinking this through logically.


RE: She should....
By just4U on 11/26/2008 10:24:59 AM , Rating: 2
A scenario: Your child comes home from school all bloodied after getting the crap beat out of him/her. You decide to get even by beating the hell out of the bully who did this. What happens? Has the adult committed a crime?

They say that Emotional abuse is in many cases alot worse then Physical and what this woman did was very wrong. While I don't think she should be charged with homicide the fact of the matter is she manipulated a 13 year old with malicious intent that was most likely a contributing factor in the child's eventual suicide. Her intentions were not pure and everyone pretty much agree's on that... but I don't see how anyone can't see where she has done wrong.


RE: She should....
By Lerianis on 11/26/08, Rating: 0
RE: She should....
By BigPeen on 11/26/2008 3:17:18 AM , Rating: 2
I didn't know she broke the law? Could you point out which one she violated? Being a douche and lying to people is not illegal. If it were, LOTS of us would be in jail.


RE: She should....
By biggsjm on 11/25/2008 1:18:11 PM , Rating: 3
The problem I have with this is that, now, they are passing laws to deal with this. Laws that would make it illegal to lie about anything when creating an online account. That's not the way to go.

If this woman is culpable, i think it should be for the fact that she knew this child had issues with depression and that she willingly pushed her towards her end. Charge her with that, and even if she wins and no conviction is made, so be it. A lesson will be learned. A civil case would obviously turn out in the Meier's favor and we wouldn't see ridiculous laws like the ones they are trying to pass now.


RE: She should....
By glitchc on 11/25/2008 8:32:59 PM , Rating: 2
From the outset, I expect this post to be very unpopular on DailyTech, but here goes.

quote:
Laws that would make it illegal to lie about anything when creating an online account. That's not the way to go.


On the contrary, as an increasing number of actions online are affecting your non-virtual life, that is precisely what must happen. As was pointed out much later in this forum, mens rea was clearly present in this case. I do want to point out the fallacy in Masher's argument. His conclusion states that if no laws were broken, then the person should not be punished. I will counter that with the argument that just because the laws for online activities are ill-defined, does not mean the actions by this person should go unpunished. Laws are not statically binding entities, they are evolutionary. Laws must conform to societal standards of good behaviour, which change over time. The Romans killed one another (willfully) in certain sports, a stance acceptable to society of those times, hence not illegal. It is illegal to kill anyone intentionally in any sport today.

It was not too long ago that having slaves was not considered illegal, good business on the contrary. Did that make the concept of slavery any more right back then than it is now?

Somewhere in this entire debacle, the girl's rights, in spirit, have been violated, which is why people are as upset as they seem on this forum. In my opinion, the laws need to be revised to include such circumstances, to ensure future violations of such nature do not occur. The actual language of the law required is beyond my humble brain, but seems akin to the following case: "You're not wanted here" when spoken in terms of real land/property precludes displacement and borders on prejudice and discrimination. If we treat Myspace as a virtual public place (which it is), such as a park in real life, what happened to her is similar to someone coming up to you and asking you to get out of said park. Of course, if you run out and kill yourself, the person telling you to get out is not responsible. But they did commit verbal assault. However, this lady seems to have misrepresented online and twisted the girl's emotions to her gain. Misrepresenting yourself in real life carries repercussions. Why should they not carry repercussions in online activities, esp. when said activities increasingly overlap with your life?

If real identities are part of the requirement to protect people's rights online, so be it. If anything, people will think before they write.

My two cents.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 12:21:54 AM , Rating: 2
> "Laws are not statically binding entities, they are evolutionary. Laws [must] change over time"

Yes, but we don't retroactively punish people for laws which don't yet exist. And we don't pass a new law, then punish people who acted before the law was written. The unjustness of retroactive punishment is one of the basic tenets of modern legal systems. There's even a legal term for such laws -- ex post facto -- "after the fact", for those who skipped that day in Latin.

Society makes the laws; we conform to them as they are written.

> "If real identities are part of the requirement to protect people's rights online, so be it"

Fine, post your real name, address and home number here to get the ball rolling.


RE: She should....
By glitchc on 11/26/2008 1:08:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, but we don't retroactively punish people for laws which don't yet exist. And we don't pass a new law, then punish people who acted before the law was written. The unjustness of retroactive punishment is one of the basic tenets of modern legal systems. There's even a legal term for such laws -- ex post facto -- "after the fact", for those who skipped that day in Latin.


I agree with your statement regarding retroactive punishment, and it being one of the basic tenets of modern legal systems; but so is precedent, and it should not be forgotten. If no existing laws can be broadened/expanded to cover the circumstances of this case, then a new law may be necessary, in which case, the defendant should not be retroactively punished. Consequently, if an existing law can be deemed to cover the circumstances of an action/case (that is for the courts to decide), then a precedent can be formed and the defendant tried accordingly. Appropriate language can be added later to the criminal code to make the implicit case explicit and to determine punishment.

quote:
Society makes the laws; we conform to them as they are written.


Agreed in part. Let me strengthen that definition a bit: Society makes laws to protect the vulnerable from the strong. The "strong" do not need protection as, in the absence of law, they would win the race for survival. Since we live in a just society, protection of rights for the weak is paramount. Someone vulnerable to harm was harmed here. Whether this woman is guilty or not is only partially relevant. What is truly important is whether we, as society, take this opportunity to draft laws so that the vulnerable (minor) cannot be taken advantage of in this manner.

To put things into perspective, defrauding this girl in person or over the phone would have required far greater effort on part of the defendant (proximity, physical alteration, voice alteration, timing, etc.). That the ruse was performed on MySpace greatly facilitated the defendant in this case.

quote:
Fine, post your real name, address and home number here to get the ball rolling.


Here's my name, work address and work phone:

Cyrus Minwalla
Vision Sensor (VISOR) Laboratory (part of CVR),
Dept. of Comp. Sci. and Eng.
York University, Toronto, ON.
416-736-2100 extension three-three-three-four-three (to avoid bots)

You can check out our website at: http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~visor/

It's your turn now, Michael.


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/26/2008 2:05:59 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize he said your address and home phone right? Unless you live at your place of work.


RE: She should....
By glitchc on 11/26/2008 2:33:26 PM , Rating: 2
Being a grad student, I do spend most of my day here.

The point of identification was whether I would stand by my words. And I do, which is why I provided sufficient information to be contacted with and which can be traced back, along with my name, directly to a unique person. If you send snail mail to my name, dept and university, I will receive it. If you call the number with that extension, you will reach me directly.

Providing my home address does not provide further verification, and would be unsafe, as there is no system in place on this forum to protect that information from misuse.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 5:51:51 PM , Rating: 2
> "I agree with your statement regarding retroactive punishment..."

Ok.

> "...If no existing laws can be broadened/expanded to cover the circumstances of this case, then a new law may be necessary"

I defy you to phrase a law that adequately covers this situation, without likewise barring actions that occur countless times a day in otherwise innoculous settings, and thus entirely unenforceable.

> "Society makes laws to protect the vulnerable from the strong."

I'd phrase that as 'society makes laws to protect the few from the many'. No matter how strong you are, when an angry mob turns up at your doorstep (as has apparently already happened to Drew here), you're going to lose the argument.

> "Here's my name, work address and work phone...It's your turn now."

Since I don't accept your premise that full identification should be legally required on the Internet, no reciprocation should therefore be expected. However, you already have my name and email. I withhold my address and phone as my columns generate enough hate mail already. I have no wish for any fanatics to turn up on my doorstep (and yes, a few have threatened just that).


RE: She should....
By Choppedliver on 11/25/2008 11:43:32 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. Thats what wrong with society today. People dont take responsibility for their own actions.


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 11:57:53 AM , Rating: 1
You mean like the mother of a 13 year old child who didn't take responsibility in watching her online? Or how about the fact that clearly she had other things wrong? Responsibility goes both ways.


RE: She should....
By mindless1 on 11/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: She should....
By Tuor on 11/25/2008 1:22:20 PM , Rating: 2
Except that in this case her mother *was* monitoring things and took the girl to task over her use of profanity in some of the responses she made to those who were posting to her on her mySpace page. It was after being berated by her mother that the girl accused her mother of not taking her side and ran off... upstairs to hang herself.


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 2:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
DUN DUN DUN, and the plot thickens...clearly the witch hunters are out to blame someone besides the parents, as usual.


RE: She should....
By Lerianis on 11/25/2008 10:04:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I was sorta expecting something like that to come out, that the mother had gotten on her daughters case over her responses to the idiots online (frankly, I would have used profanity myself IN REAL LIFE if someone said some of the things that woman who is being tried said).
I KNEW there was more here than was coming out.


RE: She should....
By Some1ne on 11/25/2008 2:46:11 PM , Rating: 4
Um, how about the girl who killed herself being responsible for her own actions? Or how about the mother, who was legally entrusted with the care of said girl? People *should* be responsible for their actions, but the girl killing herself WAS NOT an action of the mom who teased her. It was an action of the girl, so she's the one responsible for it, along with her parents/legal guardians.

Are you seriously saying that if I say something mean to someone, and they decide to kill themselves because of it, then I'm accountable for their death? That's just silly. It was their own fault for overreacting to my comments, and they're responsible for their own decision to commit suicide, and for acting upon that decision.

People who kill themselves are just as responsible for their own choices and actions as everyone else is for theirs, and allowing them to blame others as an excuse for their actions is irresponsible. In the end, they're the one who made the decision to commit suicide, and they're the one who put that decision into action, so they should be the only accountable party.

Granted, the mom should have known better than to be wasting her time teasing a teenager online, but that doesn't mean that she should be held responsible for decisions that the teenager made, even if the teenager tried to use her as an excuse for committing suicide.


RE: She should....
By daar on 11/25/2008 3:29:56 PM , Rating: 1
Honestly, did you ever open up all your feelings to your parents? Most teenagers don't, and who's to really comment on how happy she normally was...for all we know, she could have been happy for 90% of the time and come that time of the month, she just gets really moody, culminating to a suicide all in one day.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:34:58 PM , Rating: 2
> "for all we know, she could have been happy for 90% of the time and come that time of the month, she just gets really moody..."

Except for the fact she'd previously tried to commit suicide, you mean?


RE: She should....
By Gzus666 on 11/25/2008 4:28:31 PM , Rating: 2
As Masher pointed out, she had tried it before. Lets assume that your scenario was the case, does it really matter then? How many thousands of people die daily and not one of you gives a damn unless you see it in the news or some other medium?

Young white American girl is why this is news, otherwise it would fall through the cracks like every other dumpster baby, war related death or starvation death. Watching people pretend to care blows me away. As a person who really doesn't care about other people, I don't get sympathy for people you have never met at all.


RE: She should....
By Spivonious on 11/25/2008 11:49:58 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. This mother is twisted and needs to be put away in a mental institution. The fact that she still bragged about it after the girl had hanged herself speaks wonders about this woman's mental state.

As far as her defense that "no one reads those anyway", ignorance of the law is not an excuse. If I didn't know the speed limit was 25 and I get pulled over going 40, I'm still ticketed. If I sign a contract (which is what a user agreement is), I must be held responsible to the terms within that agreement, unless they are unrealistic.


RE: She should....
By BadAcid on 11/25/2008 12:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
"ignorance of the law" I'm sorry since when are user agreements on a social network website legally binding?


RE: She should....
By Suntan on 11/25/2008 1:04:36 PM , Rating: 2
That's what I was thinking. My guess is that they are taking a law that was meant to encompass criminal computer fraud (ala defrauding for monetary gain) and twist it to fit this scenario.

In any case, at most Facebook should be able to use it to go after damages suffered as a result of this debacle, but it shouldn’t hold any water in a criminal setting.

-Suntan


RE: She should....
By Spivonious on 11/25/2008 3:31:34 PM , Rating: 2
Umm, they all are because they're contracts that you accept.

Taken from MySpace's user agreement (emphasis added):

quote:
This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the MySpace Services.


There are many items in the user agreement that this lady violated, e.g. "harasses or advocates harassment of another person", "promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous", "attempting to impersonate another Member or person"

Finally,
quote:
This Agreement is accepted upon your use of the MySpace Website or any of the MySpace Services and is further affirmed by you becoming a Member.


This lady should be tried as if she did the things in person. I'm not saying she should be tried for murder, but there is definitely harassment and fraud.


RE: She should....
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 11/25/2008 3:51:12 PM , Rating: 2
Minor offenses, usually a small fine, and a termination of account.


RE: She should....
By masher2 (blog) on 11/26/2008 12:24:59 AM , Rating: 2
> "There are many items in the user agreement that this lady violated"

There isn't a teen on Myspace who hasn't violated those terms. The vast majority of all messages are obscene, harrassing, abusive, and/or misleading. If Myspace enforced those terms strictly and evenly, they'd be out of business.


RE: She should....
By BigPeen on 11/26/2008 3:24:00 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe legally binding with civil penalities for violating, but it certainly doesn't make you CRIMINALLY liable. If I make some user agreement that says if you talk about horses on my website it is again