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16,000 superconducting RF cavities will be used in the ILC

The ILC will stretch over 31 Km (Click to enlarge)
Scientists ask particles to walk a straight line

One of the most expensive and ambitious pieces of scientific equipment in mankind's history, the Large Hadron Collider, has set records, but been fraught with problems.  Now, even as operations and analysis of the $9B USD collider start to get back on course, scientists are developing a new collider that will deliver more precise measurements and new insights into the fundamental building blocks of the universe.

The International Linear Collider (ILC) as proposed would stretch 31 kilometers (19 miles, versus the 17-mile circumference of the LHC),
with 14,000 electron-positron collisions per second at 500 GeV. That would essentially make it a linear version of the LHC and the world's largest linear collider by far, surpassing the 2-mile-long, 50 GeV Stanford Linear Accelerator.

The new collider will provide unique advantages when colliding electrons and positrons (anti-electrons), which are much lighter than the protons used in the LHC. Circular colliders like the LHC are valuable in that there's no waste of particles -- particles in the beam that "miss" colliding the first time spin back around and eventually will connect.  The downside is that by traveling a circular track, the precision of measurements is reduced due to synchrotron radiation, which worsens as the particles get smaller.  This means that circular accelerators are best suited for large particles like proton beams.

Linear colliders like the ILC offer a straight shot.  If some particles miss, they will be lost.  However, the particles will be delivered at full energy, allowing for collisions of smaller particles like the electron-positron pair at a higher level of measurement.

The ILC will use new superconducting radio frequency technology devices recently developed to create these energy levels. Traditionally, accelerators used copper RF cavities that are readily fabricated but suffer large power losses due to induced surface currents. These new superconducting cavities reduce the energy losses to nearly zero. Approximately 16,000 superconducting accelerating cavities made of pure niobium will be used, operating at 2 K (-271.2 °C or -456 °F).

The device is competing with a separately planned CERN linear accelerator dubbed the Compact Linear Collider (CLIC).  The CLIC would be much shorter, but much higher energy.  Whereas the ILC would offer electron beams of 500 GeV, with an upgrade option to 1 TeV, the CLIC would offer basic beam strength of 3 TeV, with an upgrade option to 5 TeV (by contrast the LHC offers beam strength of 7 TeV for a proton beam).

The problem with the CLIC is feasibility.  An immense alternating electric field is necessary to sustain the powerful, compact design.  Current technology falls short of being able to produce and safely utilize such a field.  The ILC, on the other hand, is less of a dramatic departure from previous designs.

CERN researcher and Director of the Accélérateur Linéaire Laboratory at Orsay (LAL), Guy Wormser will present at the International Conference on High Energy Physics today in Paris about the new design.  He states to the UK's Mail Online, "[W]e made a machine which allowed us to make a big leap in understanding, a sort of enlightener, and now we study and detail things and that's the linear collider.  It's the future of our discipline."

Regardless of which design is ultimately selected and funded -- the ILC or CLIC -- CERN almost certainly hopes to avoid public relations nightmares like the over-year-long shutdown and $40M USD that the LHC endured.  However, when venturing into unexplored territory mistakes are bound to occur.  One can only hope they are met with understanding from the public that is ultimately funding these devices, via taxes.

There are large numbers of spin-off technologies involved that will be commercialized. A new generation of Positron Emission Tomography (PET) machines use of medical imaging could be developed, while the large area particle detection systems developed for ILC experiments could provide an effective technology for cargo container inspections either through X-ray excitation or using naturally occurring cosmic radiation.

Although scientists working for CERN are also taking an active role in the ILC project, it is by no means solely a CERN project. Nearly 300 laboratories and universities around the world are involved in the ILC project. Over 700 people are working on the accelerator design itself, while another 900 people are working on detector development.

The U.S. is contributing 10-20% of the estimated $12 billion+ cost, but Japan, China, India and Russia are likely to join the EU as partners. The location of the ILC has not yet been decided, but Fermilab in Illinois is a contender, along with other sites in Japan, Germany, Switzerland and Russia.

The proposal for the ILC came together from three projects: the Next Linear Collider (NLC), the Global Linear Collider (GLC), and the Teraelectronvolt Energy Superconducting Linear Accelerator (TESLA).

The current Technical Design Phase (TDP) is producing a technical design of the project in order to demonstrate its feasibility to all involved governments so the ILC can be approved and eventually built. The Technical Design Report (TDR) will be released at the end of 2012, with construction targeted for completion by 2020.



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good luck CERN
By AssBall on 7/26/2010 12:15:33 PM , Rating: 3
The SSC project that was going to be built in Texas fell through due to funding requirements in the (80's?). I hope this project doesn't suffer the same fate.




RE: good luck CERN
By Ristogod on 7/26/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By fatedtodie on 7/26/2010 12:44:49 PM , Rating: 4
"Why? What has the first $9 Billion yet got us?"

You are right, we should abandon ALL science unless it produces immediate results! Down with innovation too, it is expensive to upgrade. While we are at it, Get off my lawn and quite down I am trying to watch Matlock!


RE: good luck CERN
By fatedtodie on 7/26/2010 12:48:08 PM , Rating: 2
Well that makes my comment look dumb, even with a preview I mis the "quite/quiet" mistype.

oh well.

Point stands, Science isn't always fast and I would rather spend $12B on science rather than 1 trillion on whatever the next congressional pet project is.


RE: good luck CERN
By FITCamaro on 7/26/2010 1:34:18 PM , Rating: 2
Its the WoW mentality of today. Now now now.

The US should just front the whole cost and build it here. Clearly Congress has no issue spending money.


RE: good luck CERN
By tastyratz on 7/26/2010 2:54:37 PM , Rating: 2
Why do I sense a "job stimulus" pitch coming on for all the out of work construction workers required to complete a massive project?

I am surprised we haven't just started using taxes to pay for crews that dig holes and then fill them back in after.


RE: good luck CERN
By Mr Perfect on 7/26/2010 8:44:28 PM , Rating: 3
It might be better called the Twitter Mentality.

WoW players will kill boar in the forest for an hour in the hopes that one of them has a liver.


RE: good luck CERN
By afkrotch on 7/26/2010 9:17:01 PM , Rating: 2
Nah, what's worse is multiple ppl will sit there for a few hours to kill the 1 boar (that spawns ever few hours) in hopes to get a liver that can be used to make a special sword. They need 10 livers to make the sword too.


RE: good luck CERN
By TheEinstein on 7/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By menace on 7/28/2010 5:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
Fool. Boartusks live on grass plains not forests.


RE: good luck CERN
By jive on 7/29/2010 5:57:45 AM , Rating: 2
@FITCamaro

are you saying WoW players are impatient or that the WoW nowadays is nothing it used to be back when the original was released?

Back then it really took some effort and co-op to make progress. now one can solo all the way to the endgame.


RE: good luck CERN
By bhougha10 on 7/26/10, Rating: -1
RE: good luck CERN
By jeepga on 7/26/2010 1:15:05 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
You are right, we should abandon ALL science unless it produces immediate results! Down with innovation too, it is expensive to upgrade


The question is valid despite your best efforts of putting forth a strawman.

I cannot speak to the question author's intent, but I like to know where my money is going. Scientific advancement is noble and I'm happy to contribute some of my tax dollars in the process. However, I'm not willing to sign a blank check when the goals and benefits are not known.

I'm not vested in this particular subject, so there may very well be valuable results from what we have so far. However, I'd personally ask the question until I knew better.


RE: good luck CERN
By sviola on 7/26/2010 1:59:29 PM , Rating: 2
Well, many scientific researches takes decades to bring some applicable result, the transistor for instance, was invented in the early 20's, but only after decades of research made it into production in 1954.

So, what you might perceive as a bad investment because you don't know the result in the short term, might become something very usable in a couple of decades, specially, when state-of-the-art research is being done.

Of course, there is a lot of research that brings no results at all, but it is part of the scientific process to try many ways, before you find the correct path.


RE: good luck CERN
By jeepga on 7/26/2010 4:33:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, many scientific researches takes decades to bring some applicable result


I didn't say application. I just said results.

Results come at many stages. Scientists shouldn't be employed let alone get government funding if they cannot show progress to an tangible goal. A dead end is still progress just as a milestone is to a goal.


RE: good luck CERN
By Malak on 7/26/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By Sibuna on 7/26/2010 3:46:31 PM , Rating: 3
There's this one quote that I find readily applicable to people like you, and even DailyTech has this quote in its repertoire at the bottom of the page-

"There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere." -Isaac Asimov

Just because right now we don't know what it will help us with, neither did DARPA when it made the internet.


RE: good luck CERN
By jeepga on 7/26/2010 4:39:20 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Just because right now we don't know what it will help us with, neither did DARPA when it made the internet.


Science for the sake of science is a religion.

Your example actually makes my point, because DARPA funded the creation of ARPANET with the goal of creating a network with a higher reliability and survivability. The fact that this grew in scope to become the Internet is beside the point.


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/26/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By Unspoken Thought on 7/27/2010 1:37:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Everything from the electricity that it requires, to the conductors and transformers that deliver it to your house and convert it, to semiconductors inside it are ALL the result of science for the sake of science.


No, it's called capitalism.


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/27/2010 3:40:05 PM , Rating: 2
"No, it's called capitalism."

The ideas and concepts can be invented by anyone anywhere. Capitalism is what gives you a perfected product.


RE: good luck CERN
By afkrotch on 7/26/2010 9:28:38 PM , Rating: 2
DARPA had a clear goal for the ARPANET and were shooting for that. It simply ballooned further into the internet.

These colliders have no clear goal, except the study of colliding particles. Me, I'm fine with blowing money on it. I'm not fine with blowing money on some of our stupid pet projects at NASA.


RE: good luck CERN
By TheEinstein on 7/27/2010 3:14:22 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There's this one quote that I find readily applicable to people like you, and even DailyTech has this quote in its repertoire at the bottom of the page-

"There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere." -Isaac Asimov

Just because right now we don't know what it will help us with, neither did DARPA when it made the internet


Hey I got a science project involving a plan to build the largest magnifying glass in the world and aim it at ant's, to see if we can get fusion via thier bodies exploding. When it fails (Well if it fails, after all I have high hopes of success) then I will want funding for an even larger magnifying glass, and several of them of different colored glass.

Meanwhile since the project is so expensive I should have a salary commensurate to the spending level. Say about $300,000 a year for the first project, increasing by 12% annually since you clearly want to keep a scientist of my caliber focused on such an important project!!!


RE: good luck CERN
By fatedtodie on 7/27/2010 5:46:39 AM , Rating: 3
I think you miss the point.

Science isn't just "lets do anything to produce a a result of something" though at times it may seem to be.

Also building a super collider isn't just to see what they can smash into something else. The applications of the science are all over the place. From build able to know about how particles work better, they can change manufacturing techniques to build smaller products (CPUs, and other electronic components) or in laser applications they can make laser eye surgery more precise, or hundreds if not thousands of other applications that make every day life ...awesome.

So while it is a nice attempt at distraction with you "let's kill some ants" idea, it has nothing to do with building a particle accelerator. Science is good, the search for new answers while people may say it is just "science for the sake of science" is good.

The funny part about your comment though a super huge magnifying glass might have application in the field of long range lasers, or if you can burn an ant at 300 meters, what would that do to a human? or a bomb? Ouch that has to hurt, your attempt at levity just shot down.... Practical applications just from an attempt to be a jerk. Imagine what people with real ideas could do if your attempt at a stupid idea can even be useful?


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By TheEinstein on 7/28/2010 3:11:42 AM , Rating: 1
and you two have no clue what the point of my levity was.

The entire point is that some science while sounding nifty, has no true purpose or payout worth billions of dollars.

Studying the sex habits of whales is not needed if the whales are multiplying fast enough, Panda's however could be a good line due to their dwindling numbers of successfull births.

Right now we have a large colider capable of doing the required testing for a while. It is done and built, and the world economy is on the brink. Lets not do a project where the payoff is rated in decades or centuries right now.

and Maven of course they deform, thus why I need funds in the billions to be able to make a lense that would not deform, DUH! :P

I am thinking taunt carbon nanotubes laced throughout, it should prevent to much warping, and allow lenses upto 100 feet in diameter easily... but first of course I need to corner the existing market for carbon nanotubes and speciality glass manufactoring... Muwahahahaha!


RE: good luck CERN
By gamerk2 on 7/26/10, Rating: 0
RE: good luck CERN
By knutjb on 7/26/2010 7:26:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A: University
You might want to rethink that one, private companies throw massive amounts of cash at universities to do research and split the patent income to cover the investment.

To think government is the sole source of great thinking is a result of your public education.

Most major advances from government are tied to war. Private companies create the ideas not the government.

IBM's advances were only from government research? Intel creates from the government dime? Motorola created the cell phone for which government program?

Government doesn't have the best track record in picking favorites. Government has poor accountability when handling our cash but work really hard to make sure I give them every penny, even if ifs my last. Private companies have to use their money efficiently or they go belly up, Government just digs deeper into our pockets, as for me they are just getting the lint.

There are some areas that the government can help but it has gone too far in too many areas creating artificial tilt in research.
quote:
Sure, private business can make PRODUCTS, but the underlying technologies are almost always discovered on the taxpayer dime.
Private business creates far more than you think. Private companies do have R&D. They also provide the jobs that pay for all of the crazy spending you think only the government can do. Time to come out of mom's basement for a little sunshine and stop biting the hand that feeds you Comrade...


RE: good luck CERN
By murray13 on 8/1/2010 11:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
You obviously don't really know where some of the most important advances have come from. Just by memory, which I'll admit isn't as good as it used to be I can name a few 'private' innovations that you probably have in your house right now.

You've never heard of:

A. Bell labs - transistor, laser, unix
B. HP labs - inkjet, optical mouse
C. Xerox PARC - ethernet, GUI, the mouse

That's just off the top of my head, please someone correct me if my memory is faulty.

And if all you are trying to do is poo poo the 'govt' funded research for every dollar spent on the Appolo moon shot about 40 was returned in spin-off inventions. Heck velcro alone was worth it.


RE: good luck CERN
By nct on 7/26/2010 4:46:52 PM , Rating: 4
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66P4XP201007...

The article contains a lot of speculation, but the fact remains that they have detected all particles in the Standard Model in three months running at half-power.

Of course, even if they find dark matter or the Higgs-Boson particle, the vast majority of the world will either remain oblivious, or vehemently disagree because it contradicts the fairytale explanations of their religion of choice.

As for practical applications, I would be happy if they can just detect the dimension containing socks lost in the dryer.


RE: good luck CERN
By jcw on 7/27/2010 2:13:58 PM , Rating: 2
No, the Higgs-Boson hasn't been found at CERN(but possible at Tevetron). It is part of the stardard model and in fact if it doesn't exist, then it indicates a big problem with the standard model. The Higgs-Boson is mass carrier for fundamental particles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/26/2010 5:21:12 PM , Rating: 2
"However, I'm not willing to sign a blank check when the goals and benefits are not known."

It's called "basic research" and it's benefits are rarely known in advance. And it has been shown quite well I think that cutting down on basic research has very adverse effects on keeping a country at the forefront of technology.


RE: good luck CERN
By zmatt on 7/27/2010 7:43:13 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, that fact that is has been breaking down just about every time they turn it on and that it hasn't given any results that are news worth it troubling. Are they still testing it or have they gotten around to answering questions yet?


RE: good luck CERN
By menace on 7/28/2010 5:56:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I like to know where my money is going

When the killer asteroid comes they can turn it up on end and then you'll see your tax dollars at work. It will replace that fleet of obsolete super-shuttles.

Also will come in handy for taking out an invading mothership too.


RE: good luck CERN
By shin0bi272 on 7/26/10, Rating: -1
RE: good luck CERN
By sviola on 7/26/2010 2:07:42 PM , Rating: 1
yeah...scientists have always heard this kind of stuff, and well, the ones that did got funded managed to create the foundations for the many things you use on your daily activities and the things that the army uses to fight.


RE: good luck CERN
By ebaycj on 7/26/2010 4:12:03 PM , Rating: 2
We would care a lot more about that kind of stuff if we didn't have such knowledgeable and efficient scientists during the Manhattan project and the subsequent four decades.


RE: good luck CERN
By gamerk2 on 7/26/2010 4:28:26 PM , Rating: 1
Hey, like your computer? The first ones were developed by governments on the taxpayer dime, remember?

Or how about the Internet you are sending this on? Property of DARPA.

Fact is, everything you are used to using (aside from Motor Vehicles that is) uses technology that was funded by governments.


RE: good luck CERN
By zmatt on 7/28/2010 11:10:57 AM , Rating: 2
The personal computer has very little in common with the large machines of the past. Intel, a private company independently invented the IC. That is what kicked off the home computer revolution. As for the internet, that didn't involve any scientists, it involved engineers using existing technology in a new way. Engineers have a saying, scientists talk engineers do. Engineers also made the LHC so they scientists could experiment with it. Most "science" done with new tech is actually engineering and always has been. Telephones were engineered, computers were engineered, cars were engineered, space craft were engineered. heck even Nuclear weapons and reactors were engineered after the physicists figured out that fission was possible, after the math it was up to the engineers to make it work.


RE: good luck CERN
By menace on 7/28/2010 6:00:53 PM , Rating: 2
Oompah-Loompah-Doopity-Doo...


RE: good luck CERN
By FaceMaster on 7/27/2010 4:50:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are right, we should abandon ALL science unless it produces immediate results!


Wrong! We should continue to invest billions trying to find the Higgs Boson, despite there being far more pressing and urgent matters in the world to address first.


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/27/2010 9:20:01 AM , Rating: 1
Ah the same tired "urgent matters" response.

There will ALWAYS be urgent matters, because that has been a constant throughout human history. If you look back through 1,000 years, we are still facing the same problems today we had 1,000 years ago... wars are still there. Poverty is still there. As are racial and ethnic tension, territorial disputes, class struggles. You know why these issues have always been there and likely will always be there? Because they are political and not technical in nature. They can not be solved by throwing money at the problem, and never will be if that is your solution.
Meanwhile, transferring money from technical problems to political ones only sets us back when it comes to technology. And if you didn't care about technology why are you on a site called dailytech?


RE: good luck CERN
By ksherman on 7/26/2010 12:45:36 PM , Rating: 2
I great set for a few movies.


RE: good luck CERN
By Kutcher on 7/26/2010 12:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
A better understanding of the origins of our Universe, but I guess that's not important...

...oh and cue the : "THIS WILL CAUSE A UNIVERSE ENDING BLACKHOLE...AAAHHHHH!"


RE: good luck CERN
RE: good luck CERN
By nafhan on 7/26/2010 1:02:00 PM , Rating: 4
CERN, the organization behind the LHC, has a great track record. The LHC itself hasn't even operated at full power yet. So, other than valuable lessons about how to build a really large particle accelerator, not a whole lot, but expecting more than that would be silly.


RE: good luck CERN
By Executor115 on 7/26/2010 1:23:29 PM , Rating: 2
The Hubble space telescope got off to a great start too. Complex machines using bleeding-edge technology tend to have issues, but I have no doubt that the LHC will be completely fixed within a couple years and go on to produce results that will advance the field of physics.


RE: good luck CERN
By afkrotch on 7/26/2010 9:32:15 PM , Rating: 1
The LHC I can see advance the field of physics. The Hubble, I don't see as doing much of anything. Hey guys, Pluto's a planetoid, not a planet. WEEEEEeeeeeeeeeee!!!! Hey guys, there's a galaxy way the fuck out there and we can't send shit to it and can't do anything with the information, except tell others how cool it is that there's a galaxy out there.


RE: good luck CERN
By maven81 on 7/27/2010 9:45:35 AM , Rating: 1
The level of apathy in your post is kinda bizarre.

By that logic Galileo was wasting his time pointing his telescopes at stuff in the sky as well, because even the moon would not be reached for over 300 years! But nevermind that it provided solid and definitive proof that the sun was the center of the solar system, and later on would help Newton refine his calculations of gravity (you know that worthless little force).
Astronomy not only tries to answer fundamental questions important to us as humans (how old is the universe, how did it evolve, how might it end, are we alone etc) but it's also the proving ground for our basic understanding of physics. Gravity for example is best studied on astronomical scales. Not to mention radiation, cosmic rays, magnetic fields...


RE: good luck CERN
By Hmmmmm on 7/26/2010 2:38:29 PM , Rating: 1
9B no pratical use except the art of understanding.....what a waste of resources!!! Now they want to waste 12B more!


RE: good luck CERN
By gamerk2 on 7/26/2010 4:29:47 PM , Rating: 2
They said the same exact thing about computers and the internet too...


RE: good luck CERN
By Kurz on 7/27/2010 8:58:34 AM , Rating: 2
At least cite what you are saying.


RE: good luck CERN
By DougF on 7/27/2010 9:26:14 AM , Rating: 2
This is just like watching the debates between those who want money for space exploration and those who want to spend it on the poor...keep it up! It's been quite entertaining to see everyone using the same old arguments and get nowhere at convincing the other side.


RE: good luck CERN
By mellomonk on 7/26/2010 3:29:36 PM , Rating: 2
The LHC is built and running, albeit with a few hickups. The SSC didn't get much beyond a few holes in the ground. The cancellation of the SSC was a great loss to US science and technical prestige.


By Inspector2211 on 7/26/2010 1:21:11 PM , Rating: 2
...and be done with it, because that's obviously the largest circular collider that can be built.




By Proxes on 7/26/2010 1:38:51 PM , Rating: 2
Not really. They could build one in space, but it'll have to wait until after the space elevator is finished.


By oTAL on 7/26/2010 1:41:58 PM , Rating: 5
Ahahahaha! Space elevator...
<counter resets>


By grath on 7/26/2010 3:07:58 PM , Rating: 2
Stop that! A self-fulfilling prophecy doesn't need any help to fulfill itself...


By DougF on 7/27/2010 9:28:21 AM , Rating: 2
Does laughing count if we're talking a moon-based space elevator?


By oTAL on 7/26/2010 1:39:06 PM , Rating: 3
Taking gravitational acceleration into account that could actually be considered a linear accelerator.


By HotFoot on 7/26/2010 7:44:46 PM , Rating: 2
True, if the particles are travelling at about 7.8 km/s, rather than nearly 300,000 km/s.

So, even if the path was the circumference of the globe, those little particles are cornering pretty hard.


By AssBall on 7/28/2010 1:57:11 AM , Rating: 2
Gravitational acceleration? Not really worth mentioning. Look at the magnitude of difference between the EM potential and positional potential energies of a proton or electron. It would take eons to accelerate something so small in mass to collider specific kinetic energy using earth gravity alone.

However, I'm all for the earth ringing orbital circular particle accelerator. With a device that size, we might even be able to harness our earth's magnetic field to make it "greener".


Not Enough Anymore
By Goty on 7/26/2010 4:17:50 PM , Rating: 3
I don't know about you guys, but 500 GeV just doesn't do it for me anymore. After the Tevatron and the LHC, I need more of that really nasty TeV+ stuff to get me going.




RE: Not Enough Anymore
By Director on 7/26/2010 4:33:50 PM , Rating: 1
Major lulz,

So they just have a brand new tax-payer funded toy to play with but like most humans I guess the fun is in the getting and not in the having.

But is it simply a case of post-purchase dissonance, an e-wang fight (our collider is bigger than yours), or "I can has new iPhone"?

So 9 billion on the first one (OK we all know money isn't worth the paper it's printed on) and how much more for a newer shinier one? And how much reforestation, or desert-greening, or feeding starving kids could we have done for that much? Guess those things don't matter at all when there's fun to be had with other people's money.

The human race is a constant source of disappointment.


RE: Not Enough Anymore
By HotFoot on 7/26/2010 10:16:17 PM , Rating: 2
Did you read the article? It gives a brief explanation of how either of the proposed accelerators would allow different experiments than the LHC. It even suggest a couple areas where spin-off technologies may be had, just from the development work on the test equipment, let alone the potential discoveries.

This isn't about instant gratification or shiney new toys. I, for one, appreciate the advances physics have brought us over the last century, and I hope we aren't arrogant enough to think we've learned everything we could want to know already.

You typed your comment on a computer, for heaven's sake. Yes, the human race is a constant source of disappointment indeed.


RE: Not Enough Anymore
By Director on 7/27/2010 4:22:29 AM , Rating: 2
Wait?

They discovered the computer with the LHC? Why didn't anyone tell me?

Don't get me wrong I appreciate scientific discoveries but I feel that the age of the true scientist and honest enquiry has long be usurped by science-for-money. So even if these mega expensive nerd toys yield up something useful will the tax-payers that funded it get a slice of the pie or will the information simply be handed over to big business to make a fortune from?

(No need to answer, it was a rhetorical question.)


RE: Not Enough Anymore
By maven81 on 7/27/2010 9:24:23 AM , Rating: 2
Sooo... you're suggesting that scientists work for free?


RE: Not Enough Anymore
By Unspoken Thought on 7/27/2010 1:57:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So 9 billion on the first one ...

The human race is a constant source of disappointment.


No, he is implying that he is worried about 9 billion of the tax-payers dollars and not where the other 6,404 billion are going.

I may have been inclined to agree with you at one point, but there are better ways to influence. Especially when you are griping about a branch when the issue is in our roots.


RE: Not Enough Anymore
By Josett on 7/26/2010 11:08:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And how much reforestation, or desert-greening, or feeding starving kids could we have done for that much? Guess those things don't matter at all when there's fun to be had with other people's money.


I guess that'd require a new social paradigm, one which would NOT allow [monetary] profits and would enforce power control at a planetary scale. I fail to see it coming anytime soon...

Back to earth again, the LHC (and whatever comes next, at the top technological level), will be of fundamental importance for the knowledge of our own nature and the understanding of our own perpetuation. Yep, unfortunately, it´s a matter of money.
Genetics will, most probably, be the scientific paradigm of this millennium (that´s my bet, anyway). It´ll blow any budget out of the water, aside energy R&D and warfare. And I'm not so sure about the former...

Yep, we're all humans.

Cheers!


on LHC contractor scam
By mosu on 7/27/2010 10:40:17 AM , Rating: 2
It's just a contractors cash cow, there are no Higgs bosons and they know it. The whole theory is just a hoax, I expect from you to think what you really know and how colliding particles helps knowledge.Please explain why you could make fire with two flints...with actual scientific theories.




RE: on LHC contractor scam
By Ratinator on 7/27/2010 11:20:14 AM , Rating: 2
How about you get off your hoax of a computer you are working on......oh just wait....at some point everything used to build your computer and the technology that makes it run used to be a theory as well. Was that all a hoax too?


RE: on LHC contractor scam
By jcw on 7/27/2010 3:30:50 PM , Rating: 2
So where/why do quarks acquire mass?


RE: on LHC contractor scam
By Josett on 7/27/2010 9:14:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Please explain why you could make fire with two flints...with actual scientific theories.


Well... if you really want to go deep enough, you might want to check James C. Maxwell´s late XIX century electromagnetic theory. It's actually embedded in a late XX century generalization, Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), but I guess no one would have to go that far...

Cheers!


Better spent on ITER
By Mogounus on 7/26/2010 2:41:49 PM , Rating: 2
Crazy, more billions for something that will not yield any immediately usefull advances while ITER, a project that would solve all world demands for energy, is being funded only $10B over the next 30 years. It makes me start to think that they don't want Fusion power, at least not right now. A bit inconvenient for all those very rich energy companies?




RE: Better spent on ITER
By gamerk2 on 7/26/2010 4:32:07 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with Fusion is the fact we don't have a way to deal with the excess heat, and most people basically understand its a dead end for the time being.

Personally, Solar power on a per-building basis is the way to go. Hydrogen-fuel for anything mobile. But as you said, the powerco's will make sure that NEVER comes to pass.


RE: Better spent on ITER
By Mogounus on 7/26/2010 5:10:17 PM , Rating: 2
What "excess heat" are you talking about? The heat generated from the fusion process will be used to run steam turbines like in conventional power plants. The problem with current fusion reactor technology is keeping the reaction running for long enough to recoup input energy which ITER is supposed to solve. Maybe you are thinking cold fusion which most likely is a dream, but I'm not talking about that.

If you ask me solar power is the dead end... nothing more than a supplementary source that can't be relied upon for the majority of our power needs. Not saying it doesn't have it's usefullness but saying we can rely upon it as a primary power source is wishfull thinking.


RE: Better spent on ITER
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/26/2010 7:20:17 PM , Rating: 1
I concur that ITER needs more money.


Valid argument...
By Landiepete on 7/27/2010 5:45:51 AM , Rating: 2
I'm all for fundamental research. However, the LHC was completed not long ago, and still has not run at full capacity.
Money for fundamental research is not an infinite commodity. I would suggest they do some seious investigating with the one they have now. Maybe the experiments will yield insights far more deserving of 12B USD investments.
Point being, let's use the stuff we have before we start building more of the same.




RE: Valid argument...
By jcw on 7/27/2010 8:58:14 AM , Rating: 2
What needs to be pointed out and wasn't in the article is the research conducted in a linear collider is different than what will be conducted at the LHC. The plan for the linear collider is to do the finely tune research indicated for completeness by the LHC. IT IS NOT a higher energy version (next generation LHC)of the LHC.

What kills me about America is cities have no problem spending a 1B+ on athletic stadiums. Then politician complain about how we are loosing ground in getting people interested in getting higher education degrees in science. Programs like the LHC or a linear collider will draw some of the finest minds in the world to where every these facilities are built. They will get PhD's there(because the research is exciting and cutting edge) and will end up drawing similar minded students there for generations to come. This is what happened during the space program.


Why does the US care?
By croc on 7/27/2010 1:43:09 AM , Rating: 1
I ask this as the US is not a member state of CERN, nor does it provide any funding for it... So why should you yank-wankers give a crap about the LHC, what results it may produce, or how much it may / may not discover about the basic fundamental physics particles that may or not advance basic answers of the first few micro-seconds of our universe?




RE: Why does the US care?
By fatedtodie on 7/27/2010 5:58:07 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN#Member_states

http://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/cer...

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/About/BasicSci...

Hrmm I wonder if there was some sort of inter connected, i don't know web? of computers that I could search for any answer to any question I ever had. Maybe if this Web thingy was World Wide. I wonder if the folks at CERN are working on something like that, now that I could see contributing money to.

/sarcasm

While I agree the US is not a "member state" it provides the WORLD scientific knowledge.

"Here endeth the lesson"


Bad Title
By Ratinator on 7/27/2010 10:46:54 AM , Rating: 2
Why would you indicate in your title "As LHC Struggles". It did in the beginning, but it has been nothing short of amazing since it got back up and running. They are farther ahead of schedule than they had anticipated, they have already done the highest energy collisions to date and are going to be ahead of schedule ramping up to full energy. The LHC is no longer struggling my ill informed journalist.




so many uninformed posts
By Luke212 on 7/28/2010 6:29:58 PM , Rating: 2
You guys on a tech site should be more educated than this.

The key to good resource management is to balance production and productive capacity. Go look that up.

Secondly, do you think gravity is important? We are trying to plug gaping holes in our theory. If you want that next gen tech we will need to work this out.




ignorance is a shame
By uutorok on 8/2/2010 11:29:19 PM , Rating: 2
As an important part of the internet, The World Wide Web, was born at CERN in the late 1980s and was first used by the high energy physics community. On April 30, 1993, CERN announced that the World Wide Web would be free to anyone, with no fees due.




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