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Notably, more than half of gamers who DO pick the embattled OS downgrade within weeks

Arguably the most important, but relatively underdiscussed single story at the 2013 Consumer Electronics Show can be expressed in a single word -- "solidarity".  Whether it was Intel Corp. (INTC) pushing customers towards touch-friendly devices or companies like Hewlett-Packard Comp. (HPQ) and Lenovo Group, Ltd. (HKG:0992) pushing Windows 8 hybrids/laptop designs, everyone was standing firmly behind Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT) embattled Windows 8 operating system.

With past releases Microsoft was blasted for not being innovative enough compared to Linux and OS X, in terms of user interface design.  Windows 8 flips the tables innovating wildly -- well beyond what Linux distro makers or Apple, Inc. (AAPL) have dared do.  And now the equation has flipped: Microsoft finds itself under attack for innovating too much.

Whether its DailyTech's readers or online critics, it's important to recognize that much of the criticism is coming from the enthusiast sphere.  Average consumers -- who generally gravitate towards bright, colorful, touchable devices like moths to a light -- tend to react more kindly to Windows 8 when exposed, at least in my anecdotal experience.

But the numbers are troubling.  Despite Microsoft playing an interesting licensing sales game selling a deluge of licenses to OEMs at a rate that would indicate Windows 8 to be outselling Windows 7, the usage numbers indicate that OEMs are only moving a fraction of those licenses.  Windows 8 is only drawing around a tenth of the internet traffic Windows 7 did at a similar point in the adoption cycle; in fact Windows 8 trails Windows Vista in internet traffic.

For obvious reasons I won't name the particular company I heard this from, but during a discussion this week with a company who makes enthusiast laptops and desktops for gamers I heard a somewhat interesting and startling statistic that drives home just how much Windows 8 is indeed struggling.

Windows 8
Less than half oif enthusiasts give Windows 8 a try, and over half that do downgrade to
Windows 7 quickly, according to an industry source. [Image Source: Reuters]

According to the the source:

It's really interesting... what we see is more people selecting Windows 7 [than Windows 8]... because we offer both side by side.  And we actually see more people switching [back] from Windows 8 [to Windows 7] which is interesting.

The source said that over half of the purchasers of enthusiast PCs who do take the Windows 8 drive tend to bail within a couple weeks.

Now bear in mind a couple of qualifiers:
  1. Not all the enthusiasts desktops/laptops sold by this company come with touch monitors (hence limiting the Windows 8 UI).
  2. The target audience is enthusiasts, who as mentioned tend to "hate on 8".
Still, the idea that 3 out of every 4 buyers of new machines are rejecting Windows 8 should be a startling one for Microsoft.  Microsoft should be very thankful for the solidarity shown by its partners at CES 2013, in the face of that kind of sales trend.


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wrong
By Motoman on 1/11/2013 7:16:37 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Microsoft finds itself under attack for innovating too much.


Making 3-legged pants isn't "innovating too much."

Making a square wheel isn't "innovating too much."

Making a baseball bat out of meatloaf isn't "innovating too much."

It's called being stupid. There isn't a single person in the world who is attacking MS for being too innovative. They're being attacked because they're morons.




RE: wrong
By bug77 on 1/11/2013 7:35:14 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, I was about to say, they're not catching flak for innovating too much, they're catching flak for innovating in the wrong direction. Touch interface in a non-touch world? What could be wrong with that.

And I'm not saying it's impossible to use Metro UI, I'm sure it can be done. But I shouldn't have to relearn everything every time Microsoft feels like designing a new UI. Look at OS X and how its interface hasn't changed in 12 years and tell me there's no value in there.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/11/2013 7:39:05 PM , Rating: 2
Its not that it can't be done or that it needs to be learned, its that it sucks. Its just irritating to me.


RE: wrong
By ICBM on 1/11/2013 8:01:55 PM , Rating: 5
Then why bother with Metro at all. Just click desktop and stay there?

I agree, Metro on keyboard/mouse sucks, but for touch its great. Its one OS that works great in both places. You just need to use what works well for in your situation.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/11/2013 9:21:50 PM , Rating: 2
Then why bother with Metro at all. Just click desktop and stay there?
Still irritating

I agree, Metro on keyboard/mouse sucks, but for touch its great. Its one OS that works great in both places. You just need to use what works well for in your situation

That's the issue... It is great for touch, but irritating as hell for a PC. I just don't like it... Count me as part of the 3/4 of tech users that don't like it. Cool that you do, I just don't.


RE: wrong
By inighthawki on 1/11/2013 10:20:22 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Still irritating

It's still irritating to not have to use something, simply knowing that it exists on your system bothers you? I'm sorry for you.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/12/2013 7:57:27 AM , Rating: 5
No. I use the taskbar for the few things I launch the most often and I use the start button for the 10-15 things I launch slightly less often. I don't like to clutter up my desktop with icons that I cant see without minimizing my current windows. I have about 16 things on the immediate start bar that I use. Not buried in the all programs menu, but pinnned right on the immediate start bar that 8 has no good answer for.


RE: wrong
By inighthawki on 1/12/2013 3:50:24 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
but pinnned right on the immediate start bar that 8 has no good answer for

How about customizing the start screen? Any complaint of it taking up the whole screen is moot. Microsoft performed eye tracking tests to see where people actually looked when opening the start menu to see if that exact complaint held any merit and as it turns out nobody ever looked anywhere except where the start menu was - The heatmap didn't have a single pixel of color outside of the start menu itself.

Not only that, the start screen can hold so many more programs in a 2 dimensional setting, meaning you can utilize spacial memory more effectively than a linear list of applications. It turns out to be fairly effective if you give it a proper chance.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/12/2013 4:39:34 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry, I just don't want to do all that to make it suck less. I already have something that doesn't suck, Windows 7 it works perfectly and I like it. I will go with Windows 8 when and if I decide to get a touch screen... to me it's less productive end of story.


RE: wrong
By inighthawki on 1/12/2013 7:34:50 PM , Rating: 3
But you still have to customize windows 7...

I can understand if you said

"I don't want to switch to 8 because then I'll have to re-customize everything and it takes time"

but you've been stating that windows 8 sucks because it's simply inferior. Customizing the windows 8 start screen takes no longer than it does to customize the windows 7 start menu.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/13/2013 10:21:34 AM , Rating: 2
I didn't say its inferior. I said the touchscreen UI on a non-touch screen device is irritating to me . Irritating enough that I dont want to use it. I did try it for over a month before finally saying screw it. I just dont like it. Why do you care. I am happy with 7. Its not like I am a minority either. I am part of the 3 in 4 of enthusiasts that dont like it.


RE: wrong
By xti on 1/14/2013 4:05:37 PM , Rating: 1
the word enthusiast implies minority.


RE: wrong
By polishvendetta on 1/15/2013 1:13:57 PM , Rating: 1
I agree and wish I could vote this up as well.

I have a gaming PC. Run a minecraft Server on it, play AAA titles on it. I built it my self. Does this make me an enthusiast? I would say so. I also run and love Windows 8. And I've never had an issue with the start menu over the start screen. In my opinion the start screen is far superior.

I have lots of issues with these statistics stemming from how you clasify an "enthusiast". If youre telling me an enthusiast is someone who builds their own computers then these numbers dont make any sense. You're telling me someone is going to spend 1000$ on a computer, put it together themselves, pay for a legit copy of windows 8, and then un-install it and pay for a legit copy of windows 7?

Or is an enthusiast one of these "bros" that play call of duty on the laptops their daddies bought them and then cry because it has the wrong operating system?

Either way, minority.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:05:41 AM , Rating: 3
Yet I see no real difference in my productive day in work with Windows 8? How does it actually dent your productivity? All my icons and applications are exactly where they were before... Maybe you're just seeing something that isn't there


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/13/2013 10:22:02 AM , Rating: 2
" I use the taskbar for the few things I launch the most often and I use the start button for the 10-15 things I launch slightly less often. I don't like to clutter up my desktop with icons that I cant see without minimizing my current windows. I have about 16 things on the immediate start bar that I use. Not buried in the all programs menu, but pinnned right on the immediate start bar that 8 has no good answer for."


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 2:06:45 PM , Rating: 2
But the start screen is simply a list of pinned start menu items just as it was in the start menu from windows 7. They didn't even take the "all programs" button away, it's there you just have to right click for it. Seriously the start screen is just the start menu laid out in full screen with live tiles. What pisses me off the most is when people refer to it as a touch UI, as if it's somehow inferior to use it with a mouse and keyboard. I prefer to use it with a mouse and keyboard. Of all my systems only ONE is touch screen with windows 8, the rest are desktops and laptops that have been upgraded.


RE: wrong
By 91TTZ on 1/14/2013 3:05:37 PM , Rating: 2
It's more difficult to get to. It's just not as natural. If most people felt the way you did, you'd be hearing stories how everyone loves Windows 8 and how it's selling so great. But you don't. Most people feel the way we do.

It's only a very vocal minority that actually thinks it's an improvement. It was this way with Windows ME and Vista, too. Most people hated it, but a few very vocal people kept singing its praises.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 3:56:39 PM , Rating: 2
What, exactly, is more difficult to get to? The Start screen? There’s a hot corner just for it (right where the start menu was), there's the button on the charm bar, and there's the win key right on your keyboard. The only one of these that is really "new" is the charm bar. So they moved it's "location" down by ~3/4" (give or take with varying screen sizes) making it a hot corner rather than a button and then they ADDED a method for getting to it...

Trust me, I'm used to being in the minority when it comes to my ideas about computing. Sometimes I worry that I'm the only sane person left who isn't jumping on the "hate on everything Microsoft attempts to do" band wagon.


RE: wrong
By JediJeb on 1/13/2013 11:56:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not only that, the start screen can hold so many more programs in a 2 dimensional setting, meaning you can utilize spacial memory more effectively than a linear list of applications. It turns out to be fairly effective if you give it a proper chance.


But if those programs are located behind the one you are currently using you still have to minimize or use show desktop to see them to activate them. With them in the Start Menu or pinned to task bar you can start a program without having to minimize the one you are currently using. I usually have two or three active simultaneously with windows staggered so I just move between the, with the Start Screen I would need to move them to start another program.


RE: wrong
By inighthawki on 1/13/2013 4:37:51 PM , Rating: 4
Have you never used windows 8? You dont have to minimize anything to access the start screen. It's basically a fullscreen version of the start menu (overlays on top of whats open, and disappears when you're done with it)


RE: wrong
By TSS on 1/13/2013 12:33:00 PM , Rating: 2
Damn i'm old fashioned. I've got a desktop with icons and that's it. I hardly even browse since i got shortcuts to the folders i use the most on the desktop.

with a 1920x1080 resolution i've got so many rows/columns available that i can sort them into neat little groups. Got programs on the left, bottom left for folders, got the right for games, with the most played at the top. Last time i ran out of space was back in the 1280x920 days.

Aren't the iphone and android systems also basically a desktop? I mean you've got icons. I'm not sure if you can drag them around top order them (i don't have a smartphone myself), but if you can that's no different from windows.

Soooo.... why use the start menu? except for looking up an odd icon i don't have on my desktop yet so i can drag it to my desktop....


RE: wrong
By maugrimtr on 1/14/2013 8:29:33 AM , Rating: 2
That's what is so irritating about Windows 8. Normally, I'm the same but some applications core to Windows 8 now kick you into the Metro fullscreen view (where Esc doesn't exit). Now I have to move to a corner and switch to desktop (there is no retore/minimise button since these apps aren't windows). It's counter intuitive, requires much more mouse moving and clicking.

Maximised windows apps are even becoming annoying. The windows buttons and menus can be so close to the Desktop corners that you accidentally trigger a Metro menu. The new iTunes seems to have done this deliberately - it's menu button when maximised is mere pixels away from the top left corner.

As for Gamers switching back to Windows 7 - my motherboard needed new drivers and, worse, a BIOS update. Flashing the BIOS is easy for any enthusiast but the whole PC is horrendously unstable before I did it. A less-than-enthusiastic user upgrading to Win8 would have a big problem.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 2:12:25 PM , Rating: 2
So uninstall whatever metro app it's kicking you to. Literally right click the tile and click uninstall at the bottom... POOF problem solved! The uninstall process literally takes seconds, even on slow computers! Or you could use that little guy that's been in windows since well before 7, you know "default programs" to customize where it "kicks" you...


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:03:49 AM , Rating: 1
FFS, how many articles have to cover this issue before people listen. There are numerous solutions to this:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/9-win...

Start8 is the best solution but it will cost you $5. Classic Shell is a good alternative that is free.

You're welcome. Now please stop bitching.


RE: wrong
By johnsmith9875 on 1/24/2013 2:07:52 PM , Rating: 2
At least until Microsoft changes the kernel with a service pack and breaks all the hacks and 3rd party mods you installed.


RE: wrong
By Jeffk464 on 1/12/2013 9:27:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
. It is great for touch, but irritating as hell for a PC. I just don't like it... Count me as part of the 3/4 of tech users that don't like it.


Touch works great on your phone because you can quickly wipe off all the smudge marks on your shirt. That's not easily done with a laptop so your screen is always going to look like crap.


RE: wrong
By Piiman on 1/12/2013 11:47:09 AM , Rating: 2
And reaching across your desk to close apps on a 24 inch display also sucks. How close to you sit in relation to your desktops display? At my desk its not even within arms reach.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:06:10 AM , Rating: 1
Use your mouse... . Hardly an issue to close apps.


RE: wrong
By inighthawki on 1/13/2013 4:39:34 PM , Rating: 2
Or don't close them at all, because the system managed the lifetime of all apps for you. Apps are suspended in the background, and when memory gets congested the system will close off the least recently used apps for you.


RE: wrong
By GotThumbs on 1/14/2013 12:00:49 PM , Rating: 2
No need to reach. Just try and think outside your box.

Touch pad for PC's:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

This new interface could be very useful for those who have limited ability with their hands and a touch like interface could work better....combined with windows8 improved voice interface.

The world does not revolve around one person, so one size/interface does not fit all.

Best wishes,


RE: wrong
By GotThumbs on 1/14/2013 12:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
A better and less expensive option would be something like this...but not a reconditioned one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

MS could do some damage control if they offered devices like this with Win8 Desktops. IMO.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:04:26 AM , Rating: 2
I'm using the new UI on my desktop now and I see, practically ZERO difference in my working day and at times it IS faster.


RE: wrong
By bug77 on 1/12/2013 6:50:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then why bother with Metro at all.


Because you have to. Some actions will take you Metro apps no matter what (like opening an email link). Can you disable/uninstall Metro?

Also, Vista was one of those OSs that worked great on 4GB RAM after some tweaking. In a world where most people don't know how to tweak and could only afford 1-2GB of RAM.


RE: wrong
By DeepBlue1975 on 1/12/2013 9:30:56 AM , Rating: 3
Opening email links does not require metro.

I have Firefox as my default browser and everything opens there. The only metro APPs I use are the weather and financial apps. The rest, I just uninstalled them.


RE: wrong
By GotThumbs on 1/14/2013 12:06:12 PM , Rating: 2
"Can you disable/uninstall Metro"

Can you disable/uninstall the Start Menu?

That's all Metro is....

You can create shortcuts to various applications/commands on the Win8 Desktop if you'd prefer to avoid the Metro option.

Any OS will require tweaking for anyone who doesn't fit into the the vanilla mold.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 2:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
You don't disable metro, you disable whatever application it's taking you to. If that's the metro mail app, and you hate the metro mail app either change you default mail client in the default programs dialogue (open start screen and type “default” and you should see it pop up, if not try clicking setting on the right) or uninstall the mail app by right clicking the tile and clicking uninstall... Are you sure you really "tried" windows 8?


RE: wrong
By Ammohunt on 1/12/2013 10:06:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then why bother with Metro at all. Just click desktop and stay there?


Thats what i did! stayed on windows 7 desktop..and my desktop has a start button. When microsoft releases Win 8 SP1 that include the classic UI then and only then will i consider upgrading...otherwise i will stick with windows 7.


RE: wrong
By nocturne on 1/12/2013 2:36:07 PM , Rating: 2
You really don't have to use Metro for anything.. been on 8 since the dev preview first came out, and took me all of an hour to figure that out.

And what do you need a start button for? Why clutter the taskbar with a big cartoonish icon unnecessarily, when we all know where to click?

I do believe Metro is entirely transitional, being intended as a baby step for something far different (imagine we'll end up with win NT again at some point). Without the transition, all you whiners would be complaining far more.


RE: wrong
By Solandri on 1/13/2013 3:16:50 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
And what do you need a start button for? Why clutter the taskbar with a big cartoonish icon unnecessarily, when we all know where to click?

Admittedly my case is a bit unusual, but I run a bunch of virtual machines.

With Win 8, you have to move the mouse to one corner to get these to pop up. That's fine if the UI is taking up your entire display - just shove the mouse as far as you can in a diagonal and it'll pop up.

It doesn't work for a virtual machine running in a window. The mouse will move to the corner of the physical machine's desktop. Depending on when the VM's shared mouse movement routine kicks in and reverts control back to the physical machine, that may leave the VM's mouse in the corner, or on the desktop a short distance away from the corner.

To access Win 8's settings and program lists, I have to very carefully and slowly move the mouse to the VM's corner without going past the edge the edge of the VM's window. I imagine there are similar difficulties if you're using a multi-monitor setup.

I don't really mind Metro, but removing the Start button resulted in a loss of functionality for my purposes. IMHO that's a cardinal sin in UI design - things should not become less functional. Even if they're trying to encourage people to adopt the new interface, they should've left an option to re-enable the Start button for cases like mine where the new way simply doesn't work very well. I just ended up installing a third party Start button, but I shouldn't have to do that.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/13, Rating: 0
RE: wrong
By Piiman on 1/12/2013 11:31:34 AM , Rating: 2
Why couldn't they just give us the option? there is more to it than "just use the desktop"

for example I had to use Metro netflix app since It wouldn't work at all on the desktop. Some stupid siverlight DRM error. Netflix couldn't figure it out either. So I had to use the metro version and its was buggy as all get out. Half the time it simply kicked me back to the desktop and then it would take three tries to get the metro app to finally work again. It just sucks and MS should have given us an option to install a desktop OS or a metro OS. This kicking me to the desktop wasn't limited to the netflix app by the way so it wasn't the app.


RE: wrong
By nocturne on 1/12/2013 2:39:34 PM , Rating: 2
Blame Netflix for that... had a silverlight problem on my win7 install that forced me to discontinue the service as I couldn't use it no matter how hard I tried (even after a reboot) -- after MS ended had support for silverlight, and long had notified devs of it's impending demise. Just be glad you have an alternative that I didn't on win7.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/12/2013 3:15:08 PM , Rating: 2
"Blame Netflix for that"

Not really the point who's fault it is. It seems to me that at this time Win7 provides better functionality. Upgrading to Win8 and blaming Netflix doesn't get him a functional Netflix. It gets him less functionality and an irritating UI.

I am not someone that shys away from new UI's. I adopt every OS early, from Win95 to Win7. I even liked Vista. After SP1, and some tweaks, it ran great, but Win8 just doesn't make me want to upgrade. Its' just irritating on a non- touch screen device. That is the problem, it's a touch UI that they are forcing on a non-touch platform. Win 8 is the first MS OS in 18 years I am not jumping on at or prior to its release. I just dont see any reason to switch. I have even wiped out th Win8 partition on my PC. Tried it for over a month and just don't like it.


RE: wrong
By InsGadget on 1/13/2013 2:41:18 AM , Rating: 3
I'm using Win8 on my existing non-touch laptop. No complaints here. I treat the Start screen as a glorified Start menu (which is all it is), and since then I've had no problems with Win8. In fact, it's been the best upgrade yet, for me; literally no compatibility issues, which no other Windows upgrade could claim for me.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 12:28:55 PM , Rating: 2
You could always do what I did and use netflix in the browser till the app was fixed. Last I checked on all my PC's the Netflix app was working fine after the lastest round of updates. I do agree though, the app was/(maybe) is buggy as hell.


RE: wrong
By lexluthermiester on 1/13/13, Rating: 0
RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:32:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
MANY of the settings that a user needs to change can only be accessed through the "Metro" UI

Not true. All you have to do is open the control panel, which looks just like the Windows 7 control panel. There are several ways to do this.

-- Power user menu
hit Window key + X
or
right click the lower left corner of the screen
This menu contains lots of useful shortcuts, one of which is a link to the Control panel.

-- Desktop shortcut
Right click desktop, click Personalize, click on the link to choose desktop icons, add a Control Panel icon.

-- God Mode
Yes, the old 'God Mode' folder trick from Windows 7 still works.

quote:
Microsoft trying to get into the touchpad based tablet market was expected. But this is not how to do it

I disagree. The tablet market is where all the growth is happening right now, and they want to maintain a common interface/experience across all their platforms. Computer interfaces change and have to be relearned with every generation. Yes the jump from 7 to 8 is a big one, and yes it sucks for power users. But power users aren't the target market (never have been), and by definition aren't using the stock install anyway and will customize it as they see fit. The net result is that most users, the ones that do fall into the target market, will learn one interface and it will be the same whether they use a Microsoft tablet or a Microsoft PC. In the long term that is a solid plan, albeit with growing pains in the short term.

quote:
And Microsoft wonders why it's failing?

I guess you don't work for a large company. It certainly is not failing there.

quote:
They wonder why Open/Libre Office is fast becoming the Office suite of choice?

Again, you must not being using the software for anything productive, because Open/Libre Office is woefully inadequate for real work. It's fine for typing up a report or making a simple slideshow, but try doing anything serious, especially in spreadsheets, and it falls short.


RE: wrong
By MrBungle123 on 1/15/2013 10:49:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The tablet market is where all the growth is happening right now, and they want to maintain a common interface/experience across all their platforms. Computer interfaces change and have to be relearned with every generation.


Thats just idiotic. A bicycle, a freight train, a toyota corolla, an aircraft carrrier, and a 747 are all vehicles and they all have their own UI and controls which are setup in a way that makes sense for the type of vehicle that they are. In the same way, a cell phone, a tablet, a virtualization server, and a workstation are all computers but they need a UI and controls that make sense for the task at hand. What MS is doing is as stupid as trying to put rudder pedals and a cabin pressure system on a bicycle.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/15/2013 11:05:56 AM , Rating: 3
Your analogy is ridiculous because you're comparing things which aren't even remotely similar. We're talking about devices which will all be used by consumers sharing a common interface. For the average user who has enough trouble memorizing/understanding one interface, let alone a unique interface for each device they own, having a common interface makes sense.

If you had compared a scooter, motorcycle, and ATV as sharing a common interface, and contrasted that with cars and pickup trucks which share a different interface, I'd have agreed with you. I would have then pointed out that there are cases where hybrids of the two makes sense (ex: UTVs). I would also have pointed out that while there are differences, the user interfaces on an ATV vs a car are not really all that different. The same basic controls exist but in different manifestations. However, you did not do any of the things I just described. Instead you compared a bicycle to a 747, which truly is idiotic.

Also, this:
quote:
In the same way, a cell phone, a tablet , a virtualization server, and a workstation are all computers but they need a UI and controls that make sense for the task at hand.

Cell phone and tablet UIs have no appreciable differences. In fact Android has merged the once separate tablet and phone distributions into one. Also, as the line between home PC and living room appliance becomes blurred, the tablet style interface makes more and more sense. Win8s Modern UI might be horrible for a business workstation, but it will be excellent for an HTPC.


RE: wrong
By MrBungle123 on 1/15/2013 12:28:12 PM , Rating: 2
No, my analogy is valid. MS in their infinite wisdom has platered their Modern UI on everything from cell phones to servers. What exactly does a mobile phone have to do with a server? What does a tablet have to do with a development workstation?

A tablet is as useless to someone that is writing programs or designing buildings in CAD as a bicycle is to an airline pilot. The same could be said about someone that needs a powerful system to host a bunch of virtual servers... of what value is a cell phone when you need that? nothing. These devices are not comparable and as such they need different UIs.

Whoever signed off on this unified interface idea at Microsoft has absolutely no clue what these products do or how they are used. It sounds good on paper to the layman but in practice it utterly falls flat on its face.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/15/2013 2:39:27 PM , Rating: 2
1) That you think your analogy was valid is laughable at best, horrifyingly stupid at worst.

2) You aren't even arguing with me at this point, you're arguing with yourself. I explained the circumstances in which I think Microsoft's decision makes sense; server and workstation applications were not among them. In fact I explicitly stated that I thought the Modern UI was bad for business applications. My entire discussion of this topic has centered around home use by the average person...nothing at all to do with business.


RE: wrong
By lexluthermiester on 1/15/2013 8:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have any idea how idiotic you come off? And Bungle's point and analogy is spot on. Windows 8 is the failure it deserves to be. The lack of universal adoption, the very weak public reception and the fact that power users & casual users alike are avoiding it is proof positive of how badly 8 has failed. There is no point arguing further.

I've tried some of your "suggestions" above... Guess what? There are at least 18 settings that even "GOD" mode can't access. Not to mention that things that used to take one or to clicks of a mouse, take three to five now. And before you sing the praises of the touch screen interface, try to remember, the human fingertip is NOT a tool of precision. A mouse pointer, by design, is.

And if you think that Open/Libre office is lacking in the way you claim, you really need help. Go try it out again...

Like Windows 8 if you wish. Your choice, but the "average person" seems to have spoken, not to mention folks like me. There is a saying; "If it's not broken, don't fix it!" Innovation is a good thing, as is change. But 8 is not innovative, and the changes made are very much less than intuitive. 8 is a failure bigger than "MS BOB", Vista and ME combined. The public response and sales numbers prove it.

End of Line...


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:03:47 AM , Rating: 2
I have no issue with the Modern UI on a desktop and neither do the testers in work? Maybe you should try harder.


RE: wrong
By maxxcool on 1/14/2013 12:06:28 PM , Rating: 1
Becuase using a mouse on it is #$%ing awefull. I mean REALLY $%^&ing #$%itty bad. terrible.

"mouse over" the bottom right to get the power options ? are you $%^&ing kidding me? if you move the mouse wrong the menu goes away? idiots.

no clean way to get to the "management panel??" Idiots
No way to make a color change ? IDIOTS
FORCING transparency ? IDIOTS
no "recent" menu ?? IDIOTS
terrible ui bugs? IDIOTS
hiding all the power user functions from people know what there doing ? IDIOTS

NONE of that is fixed by clicking the desktop icon. It is all borked into different places that are painstakenly awful to use.

this is by far the worst OS i have ever used... an that includes really shitty versions of linux and windows Millennium

FOR CHRIST FUCKING SAKES AT LEAST I CAN RIGHT CLICK "MY COMPUTER" IN WINDOWS Millennium AND GO TO "MANAGE". YOU ^&*KING RETARD M$ IDIOTS!


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 4:13:28 PM , Rating: 2
Ummm, are you retarded?

Management panel?? You mean computer management? uh, in metro bring up the charm bar, go to tiles, click "show advanced tiles", from desktop, move mouse to lower left hot corner, when start pops up... right click.

Color changes can be made to the desktop and metro interfaces JUST as you could in past windows versions. Color changes are more limited in metro though.

Forcing transparency... what? Right click desktop, click personalize, choose a theme without transparency.

ui bugs... I swear to god you've got to be using the beta still, you have no idea what you're talking about.

hiding the "power" functions? What are you talking about? The power on/off functions or the "power user functions", either way, see above. if you take more than a 0.5 millisecond look at it, it's all there and pretty easy to find if you have more than two brain cells.

Right click "my computer" and go to manage? ummm, you can still do this. you can also get to it easily from windows explorer. or you could, ya know... hit the windows button on your keyboard and type "manag" or something to that effect and under the settings list (win + w) it'll pop up instantly.

I understand if you don't like the operating system. Obviously it's not for everyone. If it's not for you then don’t use it, but there's no reason to go making an @$$ of yourself to prove a point you don't have.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 5:49:18 PM , Rating: 2
I've confirmed it now that I'm home and posting from 8. Open windows explorer, right click computer (on left), select manage.

Or, open start screen, type computer, right click. Manage is at the bottom of the screen, you can also pin computer to the start screen to make this easier.

Or, bring mouse to bottom left, when start screen preview pops up right click, computer management is here. This menu can also be accessed with winkey + x.

There, 3 options to easily access the management item that's soooooo hidden in windows 8. Proving once and for all that this guy is an idiot!


RE: wrong
By 91TTZ on 1/14/2013 1:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
I like the look of Windows 8 but the touch optimizations just kill it.

How do I get the start menu? I had to install Start8. After deleting the full screen "apps" which Microsoft is trying to push and getting back the start button, Windows 8 is finally an improvement over Windows 7.

The fact is that Windows 8 made a departure from a conventional PC OS and tried to move towards mobile. This is a problem when 95% of your userbase is going to use it on a desktop.

The buying public made the informed decision to use an OS that is optimized for the non-touch desktop/laptop that they have, and ignored Windows 8. As a result it's floundering. Windows 7 had 10x the usage by this point in its life cycle.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:03:11 AM , Rating: 2
Fantastic argument there. Well done.


RE: wrong
By Da W on 1/13/13, Rating: -1
RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/13, Rating: 0
RE: wrong
By lexluthermiester on 1/15/2013 9:19:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any useful advice falls mostly on deaf ears.


Actually it hasn't. I used Classic Shell instead of other similar offerings, but that only solved one problem. Unlike the genius above I like the transparencies. But why in hell should anyone have go through all the headaches? Windows 8 is a waste. Period. Windows 7 is much better. Hell, even Vista is better and for simple reasons, it's easier to use, and finally runs well[as long you have SP2]. Either can be made to run lean and clean with a lot less nonsense and effort.

Now, to be fair, I've tried it on a touchpad device and it works well. But not on a desktop or laptop. For touchpad's, if they clean it up and fix the glaring problems/bugs/glitches it could be a success. Otherwise is total failure.


RE: wrong
By GotThumbs on 1/14/2013 11:54:00 AM , Rating: 2
With laptops that have a decent touch pad, navigating around Win8 only has a small learning curve for those willing to try.

What might be the answer for Win8 on desktops is the addition of a touch interface similar to:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

It's a touch pad for PC's and just may be better than having to use a mouse.

Thinking outside the box and expanding One's mind can bring about advancements. Just open your mind to some possibilities.

Else just don't buy it and stop your childish whining.


RE: wrong
By GotThumbs on 1/14/2013 12:17:37 PM , Rating: 2
A better and less expensive option would be:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

Just wish MS would think to offer something like this with Win8 desktops.


RE: wrong
By AnnihilatorX on 1/13/2013 7:52:14 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is not MS is attempting to support touch or innovating too much

The Modern UI (not Metro anymore) is good. But there is no synergy with the desktop mode. Applications and apps are segregated. There is not enough thinking behind how they will work together seamlessly, and resulting in seemingly half assed product in both parts.

While I do applaud other background kernel optimisations MS has put in. Battery life and performance are improved slightly. You have to agree Windows 8 is quite cheap, so even if people don't like it, they don't necessarily feeel ripped off.


RE: wrong
By johnsmith9875 on 1/13/2013 6:32:46 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft removing the Start button would be if Apple removed Finder from their OS.
(Apple hasn't removed finder nor relocated it since 1984)


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:39:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Modern UI (not Metro anymore) is good. But there is no synergy with the desktop mode. Applications and apps are segregated. There is not enough thinking behind how they will work together seamlessly and resulting in seemingly half assed product in both parts.

I agree.

quote:
While I do applaud other background kernel optimisations MS has put in. Battery life and performance are improved slightly. You have to agree Windows 8 is quite cheap, so even if people don't like it, they don't necessarily feel ripped off.

Exactly. After spending <$70 for the OS, I don't feel annoyed at all for having to spend $5 on Start8 to resolve the interface issues. In the end I still saved a lot of money and have no major complaints.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/2013 9:02:35 AM , Rating: 1
What will you say when the OSX interface changes? It'll happen... the store is already there!

The iPad has sold million upon million of devices... non-touch world? Hardly. Just look at the mobile phone sector


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/13, Rating: 0
RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 3:24:52 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, the truth hurts, doesn't it?


RE: wrong
By Motoman on 1/14/2013 4:05:01 PM , Rating: 2
I think the truth that hurts is the fact that you think it's a reasonable thing to tell consumers to just buy a "new and improved" product, and then have to go an "fix it" to make it usable.

That's not acceptable. MS can either fix it, and get rid of the craptastic Metrosexual UI that essentially no one wants, or people can stay with Win7 and never buy Win8.

All these people saying "just do <this>" or "just do <that>" are utterly missing the point. Why should we have to do *anything*? Win8 is horribly defective, and Win7 isn't. Ergo, stay with Win7 and don't buy Win8. Period.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/15/2013 10:15:06 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
you think it's a reasonable thing to tell consumers to just buy a "new and improved" product, and then have to go an "fix it" to make it usable.

I think it's a reasonable thing for a company to design the UI of their operating system as they see fit, and to allow that UI to be modified as the user sees fit. Win8 usable as-is, but nobody is forcing users to stick with the Modern UI.

quote:
MS can either fix it, and get rid of the craptastic Metrosexual UI that essentially no one wants, or people can stay with Win7 and never buy Win8.

I already agreed that there's not much reason to upgrade from 7 to 8. That said, your framing of the discussion as either-or is incorrect. Those are two options, but there are others. For example, Microsoft could offer Windows 8 at a discounted price in order to ease growing pains of the UI switch and boost early adoption rates. They could also allow users to customize the UI as they see fit. Oh wait, they already did both of those things.

quote:
All these people saying "just do <this>" or "just do <that>" are utterly missing the point. Why should we have to do *anything*?

No, they aren't missing the point. The people saying "just do this or that" are being practical by realizing that something like the UI is trivial to modify and does not outweigh the other merits of the OS. You don't have to do *anything*. You could actually give the thing a try. Lots of people do end up sticking with the Modern UI. You could also happily stick with Win7. What's missing the point is bitching about something that nobody is forcing you to use.

quote:
Win8 is horribly defective, and Win7 isn't.

Windows ME was defective. Windows 8 doesn't suit your personal preference. Big difference.


RE: wrong
By Luticus on 1/14/2013 12:19:29 PM , Rating: 1
I don't get it? I use Win 8 on several devices, only one of which is touch based. The primary system I use it on is a twin Xeon desktop with 32 gigs of RAM, 3 monitors, g19 keyboard with g13 attachment and a sidewinder mouse. Even my mouse has an LCD screen! I wouldn't switch back to windows 7 if you paid me. Maybe you like slower operating systems but I prefer something that's fast and fluid. Not to say that 7 was slow, but it's slower than 8 by a good margin. Seriously, do you dig through "all programs" to access what you want... I don't! I either click a pinned task on my taskbar or a hit my windows key and click a pinned task in the start menu, or I hit my window key and start typing (this one being MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH improved in windows 8). How is this ANY different in windows 8? ohh, that start screen is full screen, such a scary world we live in. I prefer Windows 8 with a mouse and keyboard. It's better. The quick commands are better, the menus are better, the ribbon bar in explorer is better, the task manager is a freaking god send (no other operating system on the market, hands down, has anything NEAR as good as windows 8 for a task manager). 10 seconds of use and I was proficient with "Metro". I can do everything I could in windows 7 but significantly faster. I've run every distro of Linux you can probably think of (my favorite being debian), mac osx, hpux, solaris, aix, and many others... I don't get it. Maybe they are interviewing the wrong enthusiasts? Don't most enthusiasts shop on Newegg anyway?


RE: wrong
By superstition on 1/20/2013 9:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
"Look at OS X and how its interface hasn't changed in 12 years"

Nonsense. It has changed, and I'm one of those who is not happy about the latest Mountain Lion release for a variety of reasons, such as:

1. Drab small hard-to-see grey scroll bars.
2. Tiny window widgets.
3. Ugly log-in screen.
4. Loss of "Save As"

And those are just some of the big annoying changes in 10.8 alone. The last great version of OS X was 10.6 "Snow Leopard" and even it had inferior previewing. In 10.4 "Tiger", the preview window provided controls for watching videos.


RE: wrong
By MrBungle123 on 1/11/2013 9:01:01 PM , Rating: 3
The problem for MS when more than 3/4 of the Enthusiasts hate their new OS is that each enthusiast costs them much more than the 3 or 4 systems that they may personally own. I would imagine that many of you are like myself (or are on your way to getting here) where you work in IT and influence the purchase of hundreds of systems through work and a few dozen others through a network of family/friends... If MS loses me they lose about 350 windows licenses as many office licenses, 30 server licenses, and 4 or 5 SQL server licenses... On my own its not significant to a company of their size but when its all enthusiasts it matters.

Back in AMD's glory days I remember one of their higher ups saying in an interview that the enthusiast market was small but each person in that market had a disproportionally large influence on the computer market in general which made catering to them very important. I suspect that is still valid today.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/12/2013 3:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
Exactrly, not just that, but in the corporate sector too. I am not having any of our nearly 500 users upgrade. When we order new PC's it will still be Win7. No way in HELL am I taking calls "how do I this, and how do I that". Not when Win7 works so well.


RE: wrong
By JediJeb on 1/13/2013 12:07:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When we order new PC's it will still be Win7. No way in HELL am I taking calls "how do I this, and how do I that". Not when Win7 works so well.


Ugh, I wish our IT guy was like that. He simply says "It is coming better get ready" even though he doesn't like W8 himself. He is a MS fanboy completely. LOL he even blocked access to the OpenOffice website a few years ago when I suggested to management we consider switching to it instead of paying out the nose for MSOffice.


RE: wrong
By retrospooty on 1/13/2013 2:24:59 PM , Rating: 2
LOL.then he's not a very good IT guy. He should be worried about end users ease of use and productivity not end users getting used to new tech. What a Dingus.


RE: wrong
By Ramstark on 1/14/2013 8:40:10 PM , Rating: 1
Ok, I was about to sit this one out, but after reading this post I just have to reply...
So, you say "No way in HELL am I taking calls of "how do I do this, and how do I do that"?? Mmm...interesting, as it is atl least, PART OF YOUR JOB. IT departments are about providing the tools for the business whether you like it or not, but no, you will stop the business and innovation (it doesn't matter if the innovation is to the other side of the street you like) mainly because you are LAZY.

So, there I said it, most complaints about W8 are of LAZY people that do not want to learn new things, that want just "BETTER FASTER SAME THINGS THAT BEFORE!!" without thinking out of the box. That gentlemen is what make civilization really advance, not just improving actual technology, if that were the case, we would have hyper economic gas engines instead of new, (faulty) but in the right direction hybrid vehicles.

Your opinions are welcome, but please, do not use your "power" on the masses to slow down tech, we need to be exactly the other way around: "you know, I hate that thing, but it is faster, and a better integrated environment, try it out" :


RE: wrong
By Da W on 1/13/2013 1:29:20 PM , Rating: 2
We saw what happened to AMD. Computers illetrate makes the market. And that market is moving away from PCs.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:44:33 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Computers illetrate

Well played, sir. (I assume that was deliberate)


RE: wrong
By MrBungle123 on 1/14/2013 11:11:02 AM , Rating: 2
AMD lost out because their processors got too far behind the competition in terms of speed and power usage not because they were catering to enthusiasts too much.

Why do you think Intel offers unlocked processors on 1155 and the entire 2011 platform? It isn't because of the average computer illiterate buying a $350 system from walmart. Its because an enthusiast is generally going to recommend a cut down version of what they have to family/friends/work. Its a halo effect, its why nVidia and AMD fight so hard over the GPU speed crown. They may not sell very many GTX 680s or HD 7970s but they sell a lot of GT 650s and HD 7750s because of the high end parts.


RE: wrong
By 91TTZ on 1/14/2013 3:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
AMD does poorly because Intel is such a huge player.

Intel has a lot of money they can spend on R&D and they design good chips. They'll eventually gain a stranglehold of the mobile market as well. They have all the necessary experience to do so: they have the best chip designers and they have the best fabs. Whereas fabless chip companies can gain inroads in the short term, in the long run it will be Intel who is able to devote the resources to design better chips and they'll have the production capability to make them cheaper than their competitors.


RE: wrong
By Bravo1214 on 1/14/2013 9:14:27 AM , Rating: 2
Let's be reasonable. For coporate computing, you are gonna lose the window then go do what ? Tablet's and cloud BS ? Wanna work for Amazon ? I agree that WIN8 has two faces that doesn't have a body but you are going to root for pretty desktop for how much longer ? How about using your talent to improve WIN8 so we have another stock market bonanza..


RE: wrong
By MrBungle123 on 1/14/2013 11:03:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I agree that WIN8 has two faces that doesn't have a body but you are going to root for pretty desktop for how much longer ?


Windows 7 is supported until 2020 after that I'm not sure. I do know this, people are at work to do a job. They need spreadsheets, a word processor, an email client, and something that can RDP into our terminal servers so they can use the Electronic Health Records system.

Touch is not something that people can comfortably use in this environment for 8+ hrs a day. We are not physically built to reach out and touch screens at arms length all day. So why run an operating system that is optimized for that? Its going to require retraining which is lost productivity/revenue, its clumsy for multi tasking, and with all its cloud integration its a HIPAA security nightmare. An OS just needs to work, we don't need live tiles, we dont need touch, we don't need new ways of doing the same tasks we've been doing for the last 10+ years. If MS wants to make corporate customers happy they need to leave well enough alone because thats all we want them to do.


RE: wrong
By damianrobertjones on 1/13/13, Rating: 0
RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:46:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
At times I think that people moan just to moan

At times? How about all the time? People in general love to complain. That's all that most of this noise is about.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:48:02 AM , Rating: 2
And yes, I do see the irony of complaining about people complaining.


RE: wrong
By computered on 1/13/2013 9:12:58 AM , Rating: 2
Okay now lets throw out the bandwagon beating of Windows 8 for a moment and answer a question for me. other than the interface being a pain to deal with, can you tell me any other area were Windows 8 is just a bad OS?


RE: wrong
By Motoman on 1/13/2013 10:53:46 AM , Rating: 2
Nope. Just the interface. If they'd throw away that horrific Metrosexual UI, I'm sure it would be fine.

That is the one and only issue that anyone has with Win8, as far as I have heard.

But it's so catastrophically bad, that that one issue will prevent the vast majority of people from ever even considering it. There's not a single thing wrong with Win7 - and with such a massive flaw in Win8, there's not the slightest argument that will hold any water with the vast majority of people to get them to abandon Win7 for Win8.


RE: wrong
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/14/2013 10:59:13 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with your observation, and I cite it as evidence for my continued assertion that the vast majority of people are idiots.

That said, I agree there's not much reason to switch from 7 to 8. Windows 7 is great. However, if you're upgrading from anything other than 7, it only makes sense to go with 8.


"I want people to see my movies in the best formats possible. For [Paramount] to deny people who have Blu-ray sucks!" -- Movie Director Michael Bay














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